Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea

[RetiredAt63]

I understand about the job burnout and all that, and yours news is positive - but . . .

From the financial viewpoint (this is a financial forum after all), if one of you is going to be a SAHP, her pay is so much lower than yours that it makes sense that it would be her.  Note I am not advocating this, there are many reasons for other choices.  Personally, as much as I loved being home when my baby was little, I was also thrilled to go back to work - people actually spoke in sentences and didn't scream for 3 hours straight.  You can only take a baby outside for so long when it is -20C out.  Daycare worked really well for us, since there were very few children in our neighbourhood and her daycare friends were friends all through school as well. 

Actually, if you do go the daycare route, consider long-term effects - our DD could have gone to good daycare at either of our jobs, and putting her in a local one was a lot more work in terms of scheduling and transport, but it gave her a well- established social network when she started school.  She loved daycare, it was much more fun than being stuck at home (except in the summer, and then she was home).

Sounds like your wife is starting to at least think about changes - since you don't know where that $150,000/y is coming from, time to get into details a bit more.  I can totally see her wanting you to not travel, baby will be glad to see Daddy after all day with Mommy.  And Mommy will be glad to be able to do something without baby (like a shower?).

[Vilgan]

This has been a really interesting thread and reading about a lot of experiences that others go through that I haven't is really illuminating.

A couple things to throw on the pile:

1) Health. Another thing to consider is diet. My wife and I switched from a standard american diet to a paleo one (lots of vegetables and some meat) and after 3 weeks or so we noticed a HUGE difference in mental capacity, alertness, energy levels, etc. It was like night and day. Her various allergy problems also went away. I don't think you should drop everything else and just suddenly go Paleo and assume your problems will be solved but it is something to be aware (imo) as you work to improve your health.

2) I'm not sure how you feel about software development, but if you can resharpen your engineering skills its not too hard to get jobs where you work 6 months out of 12 or reduced hours or whatnot. This might not be the case in NYC, but is certainly the case in various tech hubs around the country. I'm personally a big fan of Seattle :) Resharpening that skillset is probably a lot more valuable than an MBA that you don't want and won't use.

3) Others might have mentioned it (I didn't read every post in this thread) but when talking about moving you are also talking about yanking her away from her friends and support group at a bad time. Having to rebuild her friend network was BY FAR the hardest thing my wife had to deal with when we moved. I'm not sure I want to put her through that again even though I could probably retire a couple years earlier if we did. If I was ever really unhappy and didn't feel able to work those few extra years we'd have the discussion at that point.

4) If you have trouble communicating in person, then writing stuff out on paper might be a good method as well. My mom used to do that a lot when she had a whole lot to say and wanted to get her thoughts organized and cohesive. Make sure you triple check it though for tone and such since you can't clarify what you mean with body language since it will just be words on a page. Read it with an eye to what she might react to.

In your shoes if I knew my wife wasn't okay with FIRE and I wanted out, I might structure it like so (adjusted slightly to reflect your circumstances):

1) I'm unhappy and unhealthy and I can't continue like this. I'm miserable at work and am genuinely unhappy. I can't continue to do this indefinitely
2) I want to work on my health, my issues with boundaries, and refocus on what I DO enjoy doing (software development)
3) NYC is an expensive place to do this, and is also a pretty terrible place to raise a kid
4) I'd like to spend a year with the following 3 goals:
    A) Get healthy - both diet and exercise
    B) Work with a coach on my boundary issues so that when I go back to work I'll be able to do so and still maintain a healthy work/life balance
    C) Work on some engineering projects to build a portfolio for the work that I can enter the workforce in a job that I like instead of one that is ruining my life
5) I don't know where we should end up, but I'd love to figure that out together.

I'd suspect that if you did get back into software development and ended up working contracts that had lots of time off but you were still happy, she'd probably be okay with it. Just getting away from NYC will be a huge boost. Also remember: these things take time. I think this entire thread is only like 1-2 months old, it can take 6-12 months or longer to gradually shift my wife's views on things and she isn't going through all the stress of having a recent baby. Its very sudden and very recent, so try to have some patience. It probably feels a lot faster to her than it does to you.

[Tieke]

RJG, I just have a thought about managing your immediate job situation.  I wondered when you first mentioned that you were getting interviews but no job offers, whether your feelings about your current job (and your situation in general) are kind of damaging your performance at interview - it's hard to radiate 'I'm an awesome employee' vibes if you're seriously down and/or not that keen on the jobs you're interviewing for anyway.  Perhaps part of the solution to surviving the present job and making something positive happen sometime soon might be to look for possible activities at work that feel useful/satisfying and/or that could be valuable to you in the future - whatever that future ends up looking like.

As a random example, if you're already a technical expert but you've let your networking skills get a little rusty, you could start polishing those up.  It doesn't really matter if there's no-one in your immediate line of business that you want/need to network with - the practice is useful, and connections can lead to other, really useful connections...  Or it could be putting your hand up for different (read: not additional, just different) responsibilities in order to further your understanding of managing budgets (potentially useful for FI?) or starting to learn a European language that will help you to liaise with overseas branches/companies (and could conveniently be useful if you move to Europe).  Or whatever.  These may be completely irrelevant examples, but I just mean doing ANYTHING that feels like it might be useful to a more personally satisfying future and that will break your current patterns.  Even if you only get to do whatever it is for 10 minutes a day.

If it was on a larger scale, this could also come in handy in terms of raising your value/profile at work and making sure you've got the references you need from your current employer when the day comes that you have a successful interview (if another job turns out to be your chosen route).  As a bonus, it's much easier to be successful (at interview but also in any other context) if you are building on current successes or progress, regardless of what form that comes in.  It doesn't even really matter if it turns out to be directly useful in the long run - just having some interim goals and measurable progress on some kind of scale might be enough to see you through!

[Zette]

Just wanted to recommend a book I found extremely helpful:

I Don't Know What I Want, But I Know It's Not This: A Step-by-Step Guide to Finding Gratifying Work by Julie Jansen

It helps you analyze what you've liked and didn't like about all the jobs you've had, and determine whether you need a radical change or just to be doing similar work in a different environment.  May be some overlap with the job coach you've hired, but a lot cheaper.  :)

[rjg]

A few people have brought up health. In that area I'm actually pretty good. I don't eat processed foods, have egg whites to oat meal for breakfast, fruit, fish,  etc. I have maybe 5 beers week. 

While I used to work out 6x a week before the baby, I don't have the time anymore so recently I've been walking to and from work (4 miles a day). People always tell me I look 5-10 years younger than I am.

The energy and focus issues seem to only hit when I'm at work- though I tend to be irritable for several hours after work.

I've thought about trying to become more proficient again in software development with an eye toward contracting. Did that whole Stanford university online iOS dev course last year for example.

But I really don't enjoy sitting in front of a computer in the highly focused manner it takes to do development. And I find it annoying that there's always a new platform, framework, language, etc and it's hard to predict which one will be the most in demand. Plus I find learning about those things incredibly boring.

Most of the time my reaction is "who cares". The front end framework world makes my head spin - seems like there's atkeast 10 new ones a week. Much of it just churning out different ways of handling MVC in a browser. Maybe if I found or thought of a project that really inspired me..

[RetiredAt63]

Two reactions to this:

First, this is semi-healthy eating.  Beer = grain.  Not that great.  If you want something with alcohol, wine is better for you, and promotes a good dinner atmosphere.  And why egg whites?  You are getting rid of the nutritious part, the yolk, the part that has all the nutrients to grow a chick.  We don't have a lot of Omega-3 fatty acid sources in our diets, and these are a good one.  Egg yolks do not raise blood cholesterol - your liver will make cholesterol if you don't get it in your diet. Fruit (read up on fructose, some is good, too much is not), fish - where is the red meat/dark poultry for your iron supplies and good saturated and mono-unsaturated fats?  Fewer carbs, more fats = better insulin control and happier cell membranes - including your neurons (happier brain).

Second, the whole IT area seems to have lost your interest.  I would second finding out what you would prefer doing with your working life.

A few people have brought up health. In that area I'm actually pretty good. I don't eat processed foods, have egg whites to oat meal for breakfast, fruit, fish,  etc. I have maybe 5 beers week. 


The energy and focus issues seem to only hit when I'm at work- though I tend to be irritable for several hours after work.


But I really don't enjoy sitting in front of a computer in the highly focused manner it takes to do development. And I find it annoying that there's always a new platform, framework, language, etc and it's hard to predict which one will be the most in demand. Plus I find learning about those things incredibly boring.

Most of the time my reaction is "who cares". The front end framework world makes my head spin - seems like there's atkeast 10 new ones a week. Much of it just churning out different ways of handling MVC in a browser. Maybe if I found or thought of a project that really inspired me..

[StuckInSocal]

Dear OP,

I read the first 5ish pages then I skipped ahead to the end. I see that you have already taken some steps regarding your career with a career coach. I think that is awesome! They might be able to help you figure out something to do that you can enjoy.

With regard to your original post and subsequent posts, yes you do have enough money to retire early and be financially secure. However, you are married and your wife does not see it that way. Your job as her husband is to help her feel secure with the financial decisions that you guys make as a couple. So, your real issue is how do you make her feel financially secure with the idea of early retirement. Some people like to gloss over the fact that you have a lot of frivolous spending right now, because you already have enough money to retire. Well, again, your wife doesn't see it that way. So, if you want things to change, then you absolutely must lead by example. Period. You will not get far asking others to make compromises and changes to their beliefs/expectations without your own willingness to do the same. For example, you don't take your work to lunch every day? This needs to change. Period. I know you just had a kid, but there are ways to make this easier for yourself. For instance, my fiance and I are in graduate school. When I decided that I believed that we were spending too much money eating out, I began to prep on weekends all of the stuff my fiance and I would need to take salads for lunch during the week. Why did I prep stuff for him too? Because, I was the person that believed things needed to change. Lead by example. Now, we work jointly to prepare lunch at home. It took some time, but I had to take the initiative because I wanted the change.

You made a comment on one of the first 5 pages about how changing your own behavior seemed manipulative. Then you said you could tell your wife that you were making a PBJ sandwich to help pay for the nanny. (Loosely quoting...I don't want to go back and find the exact phrasing). You are correct, phrasing it that way is VERY MANIPULATIVE! However, you should not be making the changes to try to make your wife feel guilty. You are making these changes to lead your family in the direction you believe it needs to go. If you are only willing to make changes or lead by example to guilt others into getting your own way then you will have problems. You should be leading by example to show that you are willing to compromise on some things. Show your wife that you are willing to compromise on getting exactly what you want, i.e. retirement right now. Take the money you save from bring your lunch, cutting back your grocery bill, etc. and invest it. Show her what you are able to do with the extra money. Up until this point you have done a lot of telling but no showing. Lead by example.

Regarding the compromising I mentioned earlier, she mentioned during your initial argument that she would like to live in Europe. I think this is something you should seriously consider... as in, make it happen. First, you are demonstrating to her that you are willing to compromise to fulfill both your dreams. You could continue working while in Europe (her dream), but find a different company to work for where you will be happier (your dream for now). Additionally, this will fulfill aspects of your own dream of early retirement, because vacation and parental leave are much better in the following countries in Europe: The Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, Germany, France, England. This list may not be comprehensive, but these are the countries that I have looked into personally. (There is a very good chance my fiance and I will end up in Europe, because of the research he does. So, I have looked into this a lot.) A lot of these countries have companies where employees are multilingual so knowing a foreign language is not a necessity. I think the real exception to this is France (at least in the universities). Anyway, based on my own research, this seems like a no-brainer compromise for you and your wife. Additionally, many of these countries have absolute fantastic public education systems. So, you wouldn't necessarily need to put your child in private school which would save you money on that front. For example, I believe it is Denmark that has something called "Forest Kindergarden" or "Outdoor Kindergarden" which I believe is free. Kids can start going as early as 3 years and whatever day the parents want to send them. So, they could go every weekday or just M W F, whatever. They can go all through actual kindergarden. They learn by exploring the natural world around them being supervised, of course. Apparently, the children that do this kindergarden score higher once they attend regular classes. It helps them develop better critical thinking skills. The point is here that you could switch jobs, get more vacation time to spend with family, and fulfill some of your wife's dreams. Having some of her own dreams filled might make her more receptive to the idea of financial independence in a few years.

I wish you and your family the best of luck! Congrats on the new baby btw!! :) And remember, lead by example!

~Stuck in Socal

[VirginiaBob]

You should have started small, like "hey i read on MMM that we can save money by using a bread machine- let's buy a bread machine!"  You laid out too much too soon.

[Spondulix]

I just power-read 11 pages of comments...

The whole story reminds me a bit of the book Millionaire Next Door, where some kids from well-off backgrounds never learn to manage money because they never had to work for it (or struggle for it). In this case, the RJG's salary is obviously her security, which could also be her lack of struggle. I'm really curious if she graduated and went straight into a high paying job, or if there was that in-between period where she lived off of boxed mac and cheese and struggled to pay rent. There's something about overcoming that adversity early in your career that gives you a sense of power and control when it comes to money.

I wonder if there's ways to empower her to become interested in managing her own money more. It could take some tough love in small doses - like refusing to pay for her hair and nails out of his salary. It could also give her the sense of control that she desires. The fact that she's selling stuff on Ebay is great, but maybe she could take it a step further and have her own checking account for whatever she wants. Just looking at their budget, many of the extras are her expenses.

I would bet that "Baby stuff" has gone up significantly - especially baby clothes. When this thread was started, their baby was probably in onesies. But most of the parents I know start playing dress-up a few months after (and kids clothes can get expensive when the parent insists on name-brand or a certain image). So if the issue isn't addressed, he's going to have a child with the same spending habits!

If moving to LA is still on the table... "keeping up with the Jones" is worse out here than anywhere I've ever lived (or visited) in the US. You could have a beautiful multi-million dollar home in Santa Monica and feel inadequate compared to your neighbors in Beverly Hills, Bel Air, Malibu, etc. Even trying to buy a house is tough because you are competing with ridiculous money - international millionaires/billionaires who are buying in cash, or locals just looking for an extra house for their mother in law. I've heard people who are easily in the $100-200k salary range talk about being middle class. I see a Tesla somewhere in town every day (it's the new "in" item). The culture is very private school driven (I toured Beverly Hills public elementary with a friend who thought it wasn't good enough. It was nicer than some Universities I've been to!)  It's one of the things I really don't like about living out here - I look at friends and colleague's spending and think, "how are they doing it?!" Maybe some are earning multi-million a year (I am in the entertainment industry), but for the most part, I think people here are living on the very edge of their means.