Author Topic: Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea  (Read 168246 times)

scrubbyfish

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Re: Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea
« Reply #300 on: August 09, 2014, 05:26:40 PM »
I have my master's in education, I teach at a private school... and when I have kids I fully plan to send them to public school.

Can we hear more about this, please? i.e., What factors sell you on public school for your kids? (Full disclosure: Public school sucked for my son, and private school is too expensive for us, so we homeschool/unschool with some funding from government for community classes, etc.)

SisterX

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Re: Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea
« Reply #301 on: August 11, 2014, 11:24:27 AM »

Right now it seems like you have a pretty defeatist attitude about getting to FI because it would take a long time and would be hard.  Well, duh, as are most things in life that are worth doing are hard.  You have to ask yourself if the hard work is worth it to you.  You have to be very clear about your goals, and why they benefit not just you but your whole family. 


"Of course it's hard!  If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it.  The hard is what makes it great."

Couldn't help it, you just made me think of that quote.  (From "A League of Their Own", for those who haven't seen it/don't remember that part.)

Villanelle

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Re: Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea
« Reply #302 on: August 11, 2014, 11:54:23 AM »
Another thing to root out, when the times comes, is what she needs in a city in order to consider living there.  Her list of acceptable choices seems pretty short, and I wonder if that's no based on some misconceptions.  A city like San Diego, for example, has lots of culture and plenty of big city amenities and opportunities.  For most people, the notion that it would be somewhere to consider when COL is a factor is insane, but coming from NYC, it certainly would be a step up (or really a step down, I guess!) WRT living costs. 

So what does she need in a city? Lots of culture?  Major airport? Close to (or far from!) family? Liberal mindset? Great public transportation (and if so, would that change if the driving were better, easier, cheaper than NYC?)?  Great restaurants?  What is it about NYC and Boston that she loves and that makes those cities acceptable?  Once you know that, you can do some research on your own to see if there are other cities that meet her needs but that cost less.  San Diego, Denver, Seattle, Atlanta?

When the time comes or if the subject comes up naturally, these are things to think about.  Get a list of her non-negotiables and then see if there aren't other cities that meet those needs. 

blackomen

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Re: Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea
« Reply #303 on: August 11, 2014, 12:56:00 PM »
In terms of monthly spending:
2k nanny
1k travel
2k apt maintenance
100: homeowners
1k food
800: garage, car, gas, insurance, metro cards

100: cable and internet
50: wife's gym
200: other personal care (nails, massage,hair)
160: cell phones
80: dry cleaning
100: baby stuff
200: club fees
400: cleaning person
250: storage


A blind monkey could easily cut this in half but whenever I've tried to reign in any of these items it sparks resistance. Of the things I have direct control over, I could maybe cut 200-300/month without her caring.

Oh dear!  I haven't read through all the posts.  But here is my opinion, FWIW.  If my husband had made an offer like you have (about wanting to move to a place less expensive with your net worth), I would have immediately taken him up on the offer.  Why continue to live in an expensive area of the country (with your net worth) in order to hire a nanny, pay $2k for home maintenance, $400 for a cleaning person, $200 for hair, nails, etc., $200 in club fees, $1,000 for travel, etc. on a monthly basis??  These just smack of status, do they not???

You and your wife are on opposite ends of the spectrum.  I'm not sure about it being hormonal from having a child or not?  We can think pretty clearly after giving birth. :)   

I think you might need to look at areas or cities here in the U.S. that have a European feel to them.  Even then, I think you could spend a lot less than $500K for a home.  And run some numbers.  Maybe if your wife sees some numbers (and provide lots of options), she may warm up to the idea.  Maybe your wife would be willing to stay home and raise your child?  Since she has background in education, I don't know if she would be willing to stay home and educate your child?  That would cut down on expenses even further and allow for travel as you wouldn't be tied into following a school year schedule.

There has to be a happy medium somewhere along the line.  If resistance is still being felt, it may be wise to seek out a neutral third party, i.e., marriage counselor.  That lifestyle and status is a hard thing to give up once you've been there.  But in the long run, it just gets too hard to maintain appearances.

Also when she says she wants to live in Europe, does that mean living in the "alpha" cities (i.e. London, Paris, Munich, Rome, etc.) or just anywhere in Europe?  I'd look into some of the lesser cities which may be a somewhat cheaper:

Budapest
Barcelona
Bordeaux
Firenze
Amsterdam
Lugano
Bratislava
Munich
Vienna
Prague

Most cities (except the largest ones) in Europe are likely cheaper than NYC.

All of the cities listed above have a cheaper cost of living than NYC, according to www.numbeo.com..  I've not been to all of them so I can't comment further.

rjg

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Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea
« Reply #304 on: August 11, 2014, 01:22:39 PM »
In terms of monthly spending:
2k nanny
1k travel
2k apt maintenance
100: homeowners
1k food
800: garage, car, gas, insurance, metro cards

100: cable and internet
50: wife's gym
200: other personal care (nails, massage,hair)
160: cell phones
80: dry cleaning
100: baby stuff
200: club fees
400: cleaning person
250: storage


A blind monkey could easily cut this in half but whenever I've tried to reign in any of these items it sparks resistance. Of the things I have direct control over, I could maybe cut 200-300/month without her caring.

Oh dear!  I haven't read through all the posts.  But here is my opinion, FWIW.  If my husband had made an offer like you have (about wanting to move to a place less expensive with your net worth), I would have immediately taken him up on the offer.  Why continue to live in an expensive area of the country (with your net worth) in order to hire a nanny, pay $2k for home maintenance, $400 for a cleaning person, $200 for hair, nails, etc., $200 in club fees, $1,000 for travel, etc. on a monthly basis??  These just smack of status, do they not???

You and your wife are on opposite ends of the spectrum.  I'm not sure about it being hormonal from having a child or not?  We can think pretty clearly after giving birth. :)   

I think you might need to look at areas or cities here in the U.S. that have a European feel to them.  Even then, I think you could spend a lot less than $500K for a home.  And run some numbers.  Maybe if your wife sees some numbers (and provide lots of options), she may warm up to the idea.  Maybe your wife would be willing to stay home and raise your child?  Since she has background in education, I don't know if she would be willing to stay home and educate your child?  That would cut down on expenses even further and allow for travel as you wouldn't be tied into following a school year schedule.

There has to be a happy medium somewhere along the line.  If resistance is still being felt, it may be wise to seek out a neutral third party, i.e., marriage counselor.  That lifestyle and status is a hard thing to give up once you've been there.  But in the long run, it just gets too hard to maintain appearances.

Also when she says she wants to live in Europe, does that mean living in the "alpha" cities (i.e. London, Paris, Munich, Rome, etc.) or just anywhere in Europe?  I'd look into some of the lesser cities which may be a somewhat cheaper:

Budapest
Barcelona
Bordeaux
Firenze
Amsterdam
Lugano
Bratislava
Munich
Vienna
Prague

Most cities (except the largest ones) in Europe are likely cheaper than NYC.

All of the cities listed above have a cheaper cost of living than NYC, according to www.numbeo.com..  I've not been to all of them so I can't comment further.

I lived in Munich for a year and visited recently with her. She liked it there. Back in 2000 it was much cheaper - today I'm not so sure

Friends of her dad live in oxford and she likes that city too
« Last Edit: August 11, 2014, 01:26:13 PM by rjg »

rjg

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Re: Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea
« Reply #305 on: August 11, 2014, 01:25:25 PM »

Another thing to root out, when the times comes, is what she needs in a city in order to consider living there.  Her list of acceptable choices seems pretty short, and I wonder if that's no based on some misconceptions.  A city like San Diego, for example, has lots of culture and plenty of big city amenities and opportunities.  For most people, the notion that it would be somewhere to consider when COL is a factor is insane, but coming from NYC, it certainly would be a step up (or really a step down, I guess!) WRT living costs. 

So what does she need in a city? Lots of culture?  Major airport? Close to (or far from!) family? Liberal mindset? Great public transportation (and if so, would that change if the driving were better, easier, cheaper than NYC?)?  Great restaurants?  What is it about NYC and Boston that she loves and that makes those cities acceptable?  Once you know that, you can do some research on your own to see if there are other cities that meet her needs but that cost less.  San Diego, Denver, Seattle, Atlanta?

When the time comes or if the subject comes up naturally, these are things to think about.  Get a list of her non-negotiables and then see if there aren't other cities that meet those needs.

Major thing for her is walkabillty and density. She likes to walk out of our apt see lots of people, places, etc. other things you mentioned are also important too though

rjg

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Re: Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea
« Reply #306 on: August 11, 2014, 02:34:03 PM »

One other thing, and pardon me if I missed it somewhere in this long thread, but it seems like your main motivation for FI is that you hate your job and it's dawned on you that maybe you don't have to do it.  I haven't gotten the sense that your motivations might be something like: having a child has made you realize you want to re-prioritize; you're realizing you live a materialistic life that not fundamentally satisfying; the go-go-go workaholism is driving a wedge between you and the person you cherish most in your life.  I don't know if any of these things are true, you haven't so much as hinted at them.  Your motivation for FI seems to be about you, rather than your family, and I have to wonder if this is something your wife is reacting to.

I have to assume FI was not a priority for you when you were considering such things as living in NYC, working in a high-paying, high pressure industry, and having a family.  That's fine, things change, but you should be clear about your motivations.  If you had a job you loved, would you still want to stay at home?  What's the vision for your family that FI provides?

Right now it seems like you have a pretty defeatist attitude about getting to FI because it would take a long time and would be hard.  Well, duh, as are most things in life that are worth doing are hard.  You have to ask yourself if the hard work is worth it to you.  You have to be very clear about your goals, and why they benefit not just you but your whole family. 

You seem focused on the short term, and your wife seem focused on maintaining.  Neither attitude is conducive to building wealth.

Even though I find it a little obnoxious to read, the book "The Millionaire Next Door" discusses the attitudes and habits of people who build wealth (check it out from the library, definitely not worthy buying).  Maintaining a high income is a stressful way to be "wealthy."  Building wealth and investing is, in the long run, much more secure.

Good questions. From my perspective, getting to FI would actually be easy...but gettting my wife on board with the changes required to do that is the hard part. I've gotten some good suggestions on ways to proceed here.

As for motivations, yes to everything you listed. But you're right that I probably focused too much on the "hate my job" aspect in that conversation. But I very much do enjoy spending time with my son at home.

As far as working hard toward a different job of career id be perfectly willing to do that if I could find something that made sense. But for the above reasons (spending time with family and reducing stress) id want it to be part time or at most 40 hours a week. In my industry, those types of jobs are pretty much non existent given the intensity and timelines.

I could try and do contract work but that's going to take a big leap of faith from my wife that I could secure those gigs on a regular basis. Or if we treat them like "gravy" that requires living a lifestyle that fits within what can be achieved through passive income. So from her perspective, it's pretty much the same thing as me "quitting my job". 

I suppose I could take some sort of entry level retail job but that would provide little income, satisfaction or security while still having many downsides and costs associated with holding down a job. Not to mention the lifestyle abd/or location adjustments that would be required to make it work.

As for focusing only on the short term, I'm not sure I agree. I've worked in my current industry for 16 years and through saving, real estate and investing have amassed 1.6 million of our total net worth. Could it have been even higher? Sure- but it's still pretty good.

Regarding the thought experiment on "if I had a job I enjoyed" would I still want to retire early? That's very hard to answer. But if this dream job required lots of long hours, then no, at this point I'd want to scale back. Of course, I'd much rather be doing this "dream job" and working long hours than my current job but that's kind of obvious.

Living the "high life" in NYC and having a high stress job weren't things I sought out in particular. But I grew up in this area, friends and family are still here, majored in computer science (I was interested in it) and found my first job in this industry. It was fun in the early years - but many of the trends you read about have slowly eaten away the satisfaction. Now it's all about faster and cheaper. True, my wife met me when I still liked or didn't mind my job - but that has changed. She actually came across as less materialistic than other people I dated and I liked that about her. I don't think I realized how attached she was to NYC and the lifestyle associated with it.

Not trying to sound defeatist here, just trying to come up wjth a path that makes sense. When you're feeling tired, burned out and anxious it's not easy to think outside the box - which is what's needed here. I can continue to "buckle down" and "work hard" cause that's what I've always done - but there's little purpose on that. Comtinuing down the same road will increase my NW but without the prospect of ER what's the point. That's why I'm looking all over for different perspectives and suggestions (including here).

Right now, the most helpful advice tends to be about career/job suggestions and relationship communication. I already know that "I'm doing it wrong"




Gin1984

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Re: Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea
« Reply #307 on: August 11, 2014, 02:38:08 PM »

One other thing, and pardon me if I missed it somewhere in this long thread, but it seems like your main motivation for FI is that you hate your job and it's dawned on you that maybe you don't have to do it.  I haven't gotten the sense that your motivations might be something like: having a child has made you realize you want to re-prioritize; you're realizing you live a materialistic life that not fundamentally satisfying; the go-go-go workaholism is driving a wedge between you and the person you cherish most in your life.  I don't know if any of these things are true, you haven't so much as hinted at them.  Your motivation for FI seems to be about you, rather than your family, and I have to wonder if this is something your wife is reacting to.

I have to assume FI was not a priority for you when you were considering such things as living in NYC, working in a high-paying, high pressure industry, and having a family.  That's fine, things change, but you should be clear about your motivations.  If you had a job you loved, would you still want to stay at home?  What's the vision for your family that FI provides?

Right now it seems like you have a pretty defeatist attitude about getting to FI because it would take a long time and would be hard.  Well, duh, as are most things in life that are worth doing are hard.  You have to ask yourself if the hard work is worth it to you.  You have to be very clear about your goals, and why they benefit not just you but your whole family. 

You seem focused on the short term, and your wife seem focused on maintaining.  Neither attitude is conducive to building wealth.

Even though I find it a little obnoxious to read, the book "The Millionaire Next Door" discusses the attitudes and habits of people who build wealth (check it out from the library, definitely not worthy buying).  Maintaining a high income is a stressful way to be "wealthy."  Building wealth and investing is, in the long run, much more secure.

Good questions. From my perspective, getting to FI would actually be easy...but gettting my wife on board with the changes required to do that is the hard part. I've gotten some good suggestions on ways to proceed here.

As for motivations, yes to everything you listed. But you're right that I probably focused too much on the "hate my job" aspect in that conversation. But I very much do enjoy spending time with my son at home.

As far as working hard toward a different job of career id be perfectly willing to do that if I could find something that made sense. But for the above reasons (spending time with family and reducing stress) id want it to be part time or at most 40 hours a week. In my industry, those types of jobs are pretty much non existent given the intensity and timelines.

I could try and do contract work but that's going to take a big leap of faith from my wife that I could secure those gigs on a regular basis. Or if we treat them like "gravy" that requires living a lifestyle that fits within what can be achieved through passive income. So from her perspective, it's pretty much the same thing as me "quitting my job". 

I suppose I could take some sort of entry level retail job but that would provide little income, satisfaction or security while still having many downsides and costs associated with holding down a job. Not to mention the lifestyle abd/or location adjustments that would be required to make it work.

As for focusing only on the short term, I'm not sure I agree. I've worked in my current industry for 16 years and through saving, real estate and investing have amassed 1.6 million of our total net worth. Could it have been even higher? Sure- but it's still pretty good.

Regarding the thought experiment on "if I had a job I enjoyed" would I still want to retire early? That's very hard to answer. But if this dream job required lots of long hours, then no, at this point I'd want to scale back. Of course, I'd much rather be doing this "dream job" and working long hours than my current job but that's kind of obvious.

Living the "high life" in NYC and having a high stress job weren't things I sought out in particular. But I grew up in this area, friends and family are still here, majored in computer science (I was interested in it) and found my first job in this industry. It was fun in the early years - but many of the trends you read about have slowly eaten away the satisfaction. Now it's all about faster and cheaper. True, my wife met me when I still liked or didn't mind my job - but that has changed. She actually came across as less materialistic than other people I dated and I liked that about her. I don't think I realized how attached she was to NYC and the lifestyle associated with it.

Not trying to sound defeatist here, just trying to come up wjth a path that makes sense. When you're feeling tired, burned out and anxious it's not easy to think outside the box - which is what's needed here. I can continue to "buckle down" and "work hard" cause that's what I've always done - but there's little purpose on that. Comtinuing down the same road will increase my NW but without the prospect of ER what's the point. That's why I'm looking all over for different perspectives and suggestions (including here).

Right now, the most helpful advice tends to be about career/job suggestions and relationship communication. I already know that "I'm doing it wrong"
Coming from a psych major and a parent (I have a 18 month old), relax.  It will be quite a bit before I would expect to have any relationship communication.  You are going through so much change right now, I'd give it at least 3 months before you try to communicate about your relationship.

DoubleDown

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Re: Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea
« Reply #308 on: August 11, 2014, 03:54:19 PM »
@rjg, I just want to reiterate that I am 100% in agreement with you and completely see where you're coming from (having experienced it to a large degree myself). You've already accumulated enough to live a very comfortable life (as in, upper middle class) without ever working another day in your life if you didn't want to. And you very much dislike your job right now. It's really tough to have earned enough to hang it up, but you can't right now with your wife's buy-in.

Anyway, hang in there, you'll work it out with her soon enough. Maybe consider this period towards your "One more year" time and an even larger stash ;-)

Here are some positives, if it helps:

1. You are FI. You can leave your job any damn day you feel like it if it becomes too much, without any negative financial impact on your family. Remind yourself of this every day you get up. Just knowing this helped me get through the time while working it out with my wife, and I had even more substantial "golden handcuffs" to give up at work.

2. Leaving work is not irreversible (I say this almost more for your wife's benefit than for yours). You can remind yourself, and her when the time is right, that you quitting your current job does not have to be a permanent decision that can never be undone. You don't need to earn another $ in your entire life, but that doesn't mean you might not choose to go back to some kind of work one day. And very likely, you will earn some $ doing something at some point. People take time off or long sabbaticals all the time, at least those that can afford it. And you can afford it (forever). Putting it this way made it easier for my wife to accept.

3. I don't know what NYC real estate will do in the future, but as time passes while you work it out with your wife, there's probably a decent chance that your net worth will go up pretty significantly. I think you said your place is worth $1.5M, which means every 1% increase = $15k. Why does this matter? Because you could probably quit, STAY in NYC for now, and leave your net worth intact. Your passive income and appreciation on the house could already rival your income from work. This argument helped my wife see some of the futility in me continuing to work at a job I no longer wanted.

Gin1984

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Re: Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea
« Reply #309 on: August 11, 2014, 04:35:02 PM »
@rjg, I just want to reiterate that I am 100% in agreement with you and completely see where you're coming from (having experienced it to a large degree myself). You've already accumulated enough to live a very comfortable life (as in, upper middle class) without ever working another day in your life if you didn't want to. And you very much dislike your job right now. It's really tough to have earned enough to hang it up, but you can't right now with your wife's buy-in.

Anyway, hang in there, you'll work it out with her soon enough. Maybe consider this period towards your "One more year" time and an even larger stash ;-)

Here are some positives, if it helps:

1. You are FI. You can leave your job any damn day you feel like it if it becomes too much, without any negative financial impact on your family. Remind yourself of this every day you get up. Just knowing this helped me get through the time while working it out with my wife, and I had even more substantial "golden handcuffs" to give up at work.

2. Leaving work is not irreversible (I say this almost more for your wife's benefit than for yours). You can remind yourself, and her when the time is right, that you quitting your current job does not have to be a permanent decision that can never be undone. You don't need to earn another $ in your entire life, but that doesn't mean you might not choose to go back to some kind of work one day. And very likely, you will earn some $ doing something at some point. People take time off or long sabbaticals all the time, at least those that can afford it. And you can afford it (forever). Putting it this way made it easier for my wife to accept.

3. I don't know what NYC real estate will do in the future, but as time passes while you work it out with your wife, there's probably a decent chance that your net worth will go up pretty significantly. I think you said your place is worth $1.5M, which means every 1% increase = $15k. Why does this matter? Because you could probably quit, STAY in NYC for now, and leave your net worth intact. Your passive income and appreciation on the house could already rival your income from work. This argument helped my wife see some of the futility in me continuing to work at a job I no longer wanted.
I don't know about staying he is already FI, because excluding the value of the house, his investments are worth only $800,000.  To me (and I bet to his wife), that is not enough for a middle class family, especially if she wants private school and travel.  I'd say, cut back and give it five years and then I'd, personally, say maybe FI.

aeliz

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Re: Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea
« Reply #310 on: August 11, 2014, 07:12:21 PM »
RJG I also want to recognize that YOU are also dealing with a major transition and are tired and I think there's hormonal stuff that goes on with new dads, too.  So be gentle to yourself, be good to yourself, and your wife, and your son.  You've got the idea for FIRE, you can let it percolate for awhile, do some reading, put together some spreadsheets at your leisure.  Even ones that include private school and European vacations.

I was reading these MMM posts earlier today, thought they might help you.
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/03/22/selling-the-dream-how-to-make-your-spouse-love-frugality/
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/03/27/selling-the-dream-of-financial-independence-part-2/



I have my master's in education, I teach at a private school... and when I have kids I fully plan to send them to public school.

Can we hear more about this, please? i.e., What factors sell you on public school for your kids? (Full disclosure: Public school sucked for my son, and private school is too expensive for us, so we homeschool/unschool with some funding from government for community classes, etc.)

I'd be happy to talk about it but maybe not on this thread because I don't want to derail!  Mostly it comes down to valuing the diversity of public school.  My partner and I have a ton of resources: educational, familial, emotional, financial.  Odds are any kid of ours will do fine in the public system and I believe in contributing to the public system (I know, not teaching there right now sort of belies that, but I teach at a small specialized school for kids with Aspergers so it's kind of a unique set up that fully uses both my English and Special Ed credentials). But I've spent my whole of my career working with kids who, at best, struggle in the public system, so I know there are circumstances where it's not right for some kids.

rjg

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Re: Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea
« Reply #311 on: August 11, 2014, 07:12:21 PM »

@rjg, I just want to reiterate that I am 100% in agreement with you and completely see where you're coming from (having experienced it to a large degree myself). You've already accumulated enough to live a very comfortable life (as in, upper middle class) without ever working another day in your life if you didn't want to. And you very much dislike your job right now. It's really tough to have earned enough to hang it up, but you can't right now with your wife's buy-in.

Anyway, hang in there, you'll work it out with her soon enough. Maybe consider this period towards your "One more year" time and an even larger stash ;-)

Here are some positives, if it helps:

1. You are FI. You can leave your job any damn day you feel like it if it becomes too much, without any negative financial impact on your family. Remind yourself of this every day you get up. Just knowing this helped me get through the time while working it out with my wife, and I had even more substantial "golden handcuffs" to give up at work.

2. Leaving work is not irreversible (I say this almost more for your wife's benefit than for yours). You can remind yourself, and her when the time is right, that you quitting your current job does not have to be a permanent decision that can never be undone. You don't need to earn another $ in your entire life, but that doesn't mean you might not choose to go back to some kind of work one day. And very likely, you will earn some $ doing something at some point. People take time off or long sabbaticals all the time, at least those that can afford it. And you can afford it (forever). Putting it this way made it easier for my wife to accept.

3. I don't know what NYC real estate will do in the future, but as time passes while you work it out with your wife, there's probably a decent chance that your net worth will go up pretty significantly. I think you said your place is worth $1.5M, which means every 1% increase = $15k. Why does this matter? Because you could probably quit, STAY in NYC for now, and leave your net worth intact. Your passive income and appreciation on the house could already rival your income from work. This argument helped my wife see some of the futility in me continuing to work at a job I no longer wanted.

Thanks for the positive observations- I appreciate it.

I've thought of the real estate appreciation angle before, and while I'd be comfortable "banking on that" for a year maybe, I woukdnt want to do it long term since the real return on real estate tends to revert to 0.

Then again, if I didn't have the real estate "ball and chain" I might quit impulsively the next time I have to do a 6 month project in 3 months.

Good news though!! My wife said today that "no matter what" we could leave NYC by next April. We haven't talked about what that means yet but it's a great start.

rjg

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Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea
« Reply #312 on: August 11, 2014, 07:23:03 PM »
Duplicate
« Last Edit: August 11, 2014, 07:47:17 PM by rjg »

theonethatgotaway

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Re: Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea
« Reply #313 on: August 11, 2014, 09:39:27 PM »
Keep us posted! April, huh? Wow well that was quick! :)

Have you thought about showing her this thread? So much good information to sit ago over together *maybe a lite version with the stuff that resonates with you* ! If I was the wife, I think it'd make me more interested in 'where we are heading and why'.

scrubbyfish

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Re: Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea
« Reply #314 on: August 11, 2014, 11:26:37 PM »
...valuing the diversity of public school.  My partner and I have a ton of resources: educational, familial, emotional, financial.  Odds are any kid of ours will do fine in the public system and I believe in contributing to the public system (I know, not teaching there right now sort of belies that, but I teach at a small specialized school for kids with Aspergers so it's kind of a unique set up that fully uses both my English and Special Ed credentials). But I've spent my whole of my career working with kids who, at best, struggle in the public system, so I know there are circumstances where it's not right for some kids.

Thanks, aeliz! That's plenty of info. And thanks for teaching kids with Aspergers (my kid is dx'd with high-functioning autism, severe nonverbal learning disability, and so on). I'll stop here to keep to the thread's primary purpose :)  Thanks again!

Good news though!! My wife said today that "no matter what" we could leave NYC by next April. We haven't talked about what that means yet but it's a great start.

THAT'S phenomenal! A great shift! And so soon! Good work, rjg and rjg's dear wife!

rjg

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Re: Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea
« Reply #315 on: August 12, 2014, 10:34:28 AM »

Keep us posted! April, huh? Wow well that was quick! :)

Have you thought about showing her this thread? So much good information to sit ago over together *maybe a lite version with the stuff that resonates with you* ! If I was the wife, I think it'd make me more interested in 'where we are heading and why'.

Think it would be overwhelming. I think my strategy will be one step at a time:
-modeling better spending habits.
-building on her budding desire to stay home and not work. Show her how much I enjoy doing the same -emphasize the positive
-try to never again talk about hating my job - emphasize what we want to move toward not away from. This will be to tough as I tend to come home stressed, angry and depressed. So even "how was your day" is a loaded question
-try to make our next move somewhere cheaper and less stressful. At that point, try to create a new budget that could fit within my passive income (but don't even mention that).
-guide her on her investment decisions  when we sell our place (my only goal is to not she her dump it into a bank account or cd). Maybe suggest putting  part of it in a vanguard index stock fund
-try to slowly and gently learn more about her hopes and fears.
-talk more about FI than RE


Bob W

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Re: Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea
« Reply #316 on: August 12, 2014, 11:03:28 AM »
Sadly you are very financially independent but have some mixed up priorities in the house.

IMHO,  since we live a very nice life on 4K per month you could easily get by on the 10K per month your stash would provide.   

For $700,000 you can buy a fabulous home in Springfield MO right on the golf course with 6 bedrooms and 6,000 sq ft.   Your kids could attend private school and the town is brimming over with arts, culture and things to do.   You could even find a job that your really liked.  The people are super nice,  crime is super low and the lifestyle fantastic.   Missouri is rated tops in outdoors activities, lakes,  clear mountain streams and a real family place.

Then with your extra money you could spend 3 months each year in any location of your choice.

NY City?  Seriously, I can't imagine being paid enough to live there!   Plus isn't your kind of work something that can be done remotely?

scrubbyfish

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Re: Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea
« Reply #317 on: August 12, 2014, 11:08:17 AM »
This will be to tough as I tend to come home stressed, angry and depressed. So even "how was your day" is a loaded question

Beautiful, beautiful plan, rjg.

If you do continue to hate your job, please don't keep that to yourself, though. Your wife will need to know, so that you are not left suffering for a long time. I am a person who is very affected by, well, everything (for good or for bad) and will rant. That was hard for my last partner, so I understand the idea to keep pain to oneself to protect the other. However, your hating your job is a very real thing that is very really affecting you. That pain needs to be released/relieved/supported/healed somehow. Some people manage with that visualization of coming home, "hanging" all their worries/stresses on a tree or plant outside their home, then walking in. That is too fluffy for me when I'm up in arms.

If you are like me, what about one of the following options:

Say to your dear wife, "I need to talk with you for two minutes about something really true for me. When would be a good time? [...] You know now that I'm really hurting in going to this job. However, I'm very willing to go, to continue to support your dreams. So I'm going to look for ways to go to work without bringing home a lot of the pain of it. I just need you to be aware -and acknowledge- that even if I make effort to cope better, I'm still in a lot of pain under it and I'll be looking forward to when we can change this."

Or,

"You know now that I'm really hurting in going to this job. I'm very willing to go, to continue to support your dreams. So I'm going to look for ways to go to work without bringing home a lot of the pain of it. What would help me do that is [stopping for an hour of golf on the way home, you hearing me rant for 20 minutes -on a timer- when I get home, whatever].

Or,

"...[as above]...I'd like to start seeing a life/career coach."

jsloan

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Re: Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea
« Reply #318 on: August 12, 2014, 12:46:27 PM »
I have read through this thread and a lot of what you are experiencing at work I have also gone through working in IT at a corporate environment.  I know your situation is different, but I wanted to outline a couple of things that helped me when I burned out:

1.) Get out of IT management.  It isn't for everyone and you are losing your technical skills and making yourself less employable for the flexible lifestyle you want.  It sounds like your skills are rusty, but I'm sure they will come back.  Programming hasn't changed that much in the last 5 years.     

2.) Look to get into consulting, it is very easy to transition to part time or do contract work where you may only work 6 months out of the year and still make great money.

3.) Once you have established yourself in consulting, try to transition to remote work.  This will allow you to stay at home with your new baby and wife while cutting out all the impromptu bs meetings. 

Gin1984

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Re: Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea
« Reply #319 on: August 12, 2014, 01:46:20 PM »

Keep us posted! April, huh? Wow well that was quick! :)

Have you thought about showing her this thread? So much good information to sit ago over together *maybe a lite version with the stuff that resonates with you* ! If I was the wife, I think it'd make me more interested in 'where we are heading and why'.

Think it would be overwhelming. I think my strategy will be one step at a time:
-modeling better spending habits.
-building on her budding desire to stay home and not work. Show her how much I enjoy doing the same -emphasize the positive
-try to never again talk about hating my job - emphasize what we want to move toward not away from. This will be to tough as I tend to come home stressed, angry and depressed. So even "how was your day" is a loaded question
-try to make our next move somewhere cheaper and less stressful. At that point, try to create a new budget that could fit within my passive income (but don't even mention that).
-guide her on her investment decisions  when we sell our place (my only goal is to not she her dump it into a bank account or cd). Maybe suggest putting  part of it in a vanguard index stock fund
-try to slowly and gently learn more about her hopes and fears.
-talk more about FI than RE
I would not hide your stress from her, but I would try to get a new job.

rjg

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Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea
« Reply #320 on: August 12, 2014, 04:39:00 PM »
So one step forward one step back I guess. Today she made multiple mocking references to "my 6000/month" plan. That's how she now refers to our brief FI discussion. She wanted to "go out to a few nice places" today since she goes back to work tomorrow. We blew about 120. She kept asking me why I looked so down and I bit my tongue - just said "nothing". She then went on about how people only want to be around happy people.

At the last place we went, she was going on about how she makes a point of never discussing money with friends. Again, she referred to my "plan" in a mocking tone. Finally, I said "what do you think about having financial independence as a goal?". She responded in a very angry tone "is this about your plan again - why are you trying to upset me before i go back to work? Do you really have to bring this up?! We have to work. It sucks. Get over it".   Clearly any topic that even touches on this is an emotional hot button so I changed the subject.

I am so angry, frustrated and upset with her right now. Can barely look at her.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2014, 04:42:49 PM by rjg »

Zimy

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Re: Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea
« Reply #321 on: August 12, 2014, 04:57:34 PM »
She responded in a very angry tone "is this about your plan again - why are you trying to upset me before i go back to work? Do you really have to bring this up?! We have to work. It sucks. Get over it".

I may be overstepping my bounds since this isn't a relationship forum, but I'm far more concerned about her and your communication issues than about getting her to accept FI as a real goal. For some reason she thinks it's okay to mock your ideas repeatedly and raise her voice to you. While part of the stress is probably coming from having a young child and having to go back to work when she doesn't want to, the two of you should probably seek counseling to learn (re-learn?) good communication skills.

I get the feeling she is stressed and doesn't know how to appropriately communicate it to you. Your coming home from work angry and depressed is probably wearing on her as well. There definitely seem to be deeper issues that you need to solve before broaching the FI topic again.

former player

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Re: Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea
« Reply #322 on: August 12, 2014, 05:24:56 PM »
Oh lor'.  You are clearly very unhappy with your job, and your wife sounds a bit unhappy all round.

I don't know how long you've been reading MMM, but I'm a bit worried that you could be a very recent convert to the cult and have seized on the MMM notion of early retirement as the only answer to all your problems.  Unfortunately, it is becoming clear that it is only the answer to one of your problems and may be creating new ones.  If you have only been thinking about early retirement for the last couple of weeks, take a deep breath and peace out on any issues discussed by MMM for a while. 

You are clearly stressed to the max by your current job, so I think that is your most urgent need for change.  Is there anything you can do to help with that which isn't a complete cut-off from your current employment, such as reduced hours or reduced responsibility for reduced pay?  If not, can you find a career coach/counsellor to talk to (something which was suggested up thread)?  It could be very helpful to you to vent your frustrations about your current job to someone in a safely professional context who is not your wife.  And see if they have any suggestions for sideways career moves for you - I would guess that most people seeing a career coach are looking for more money/responsibility, so you might be a novel challenge.  If you can downsize your job without mentioning the "retirement" word, your wife might consider it a more acceptable interim solution than complete retirement, and it would give you both a breathing space before making any bigger decisions about moving out of NY/retiring.

Good luck.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2014, 01:45:41 AM by former player »

Gin1984

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Re: Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea
« Reply #323 on: August 12, 2014, 05:38:28 PM »
She responded in a very angry tone "is this about your plan again - why are you trying to upset me before i go back to work? Do you really have to bring this up?! We have to work. It sucks. Get over it".

I may be overstepping my bounds since this isn't a relationship forum, but I'm far more concerned about her and your communication issues than about getting her to accept FI as a real goal. For some reason she thinks it's okay to mock your ideas repeatedly and raise her voice to you. While part of the stress is probably coming from having a young child and having to go back to work when she doesn't want to, the two of you should probably seek counseling to learn (re-learn?) good communication skills.

I get the feeling she is stressed and doesn't know how to appropriately communicate it to you. Your coming home from work angry and depressed is probably wearing on her as well. There definitely seem to be deeper issues that you need to solve before broaching the FI topic again.
Both my husband and I were stressed at 3 month post birth and our communication sucked.  At 18 month we are barely getting back to stable communication.  I really think working on separate issues before FI is important too.

Roses

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Re: Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea
« Reply #324 on: August 13, 2014, 01:48:42 AM »
I am so angry, frustrated and upset with her right now. Can barely look at her.

You've gotten good advice here and made progress but you need to go to marriage counseling asap.  It sounds like these interactions will keep coming up and you need help dealing with them.  Also, things get more stressful after the first child.  Doesn't everyone in NY have a shrink? ;)

pom

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Re: Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea
« Reply #325 on: August 13, 2014, 02:43:53 AM »
Take a step back and a deep breath.

My wife called me "cheap" many times and a few times in front of her friends. Let say that I didn't appreciate and it often resulted in an argument. Now she almost never does it, she has accepted the good (financial stability and security) that comes from me being frugal ... it took about a year.

Jennifer in Ottawa

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Re: Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea
« Reply #326 on: August 13, 2014, 05:59:59 AM »
Above and beyond any discussion of FIRE or finances, the complete lack of respect your wife displays for your feelings and ideas is shocking.  You are a person, and supposedly her partner in life's journey, and are worthy of being treated as such.

She doesn't have to agree with you, but you don't have to tolerate being treated like this, post-birth hormones or not (and to qualify my statements, I am a mother of two so I've been down the road of Hormone-Soup myself).  She is in dire need of sharp reminder that this relationship is a partnership, not a dictatorship.

Edit:  Sorry about this, but the descriptions of you being mocked all day made me angry.  If my husband repeatedly mocked me, publicly or not, my response would be "Who, precisely, the Fuck, do you think you are? And, What makes you think you can ever speak to me this way?".
« Last Edit: August 13, 2014, 06:03:31 AM by Jennifer in Ottawa »

matchewed

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Re: Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea
« Reply #327 on: August 13, 2014, 06:16:37 AM »
I would highly recommend at this point if your communications with each other are breaking down in this manner to either sit down and discuss the communication issues first without bringing any sort of lifestyle change into the equation or seek help. Maybe we're just getting the small disconnects but we can only see your side of these things. And any further discussion on where you two will go as a couple and partners requires a strong foundation of communication. Fix the foundation then build the house so to speak.

Villanelle

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Re: Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea
« Reply #328 on: August 13, 2014, 08:05:36 AM »
It might be time to consider some counseling for both the questions about what your future looks like, and also for tips on communicating better.

Also, as great as it is that she's agreed to April, it might not be realistic if you guys can't have a decent conversation about what that means.  You'll need to sell the house (unless you want to be landlords and those numbers make sense), find new jobs, and do a tone of preparation. Eight months is likely enough time to do all that, but only if you can talk about it and get started.

For me, I'd probably want a list of cities that would work for both of us, and then I'd start a job search in those cities and let that be the deciding factor for where we live.  But given the tension, I'm not sure how you can have that conversation right now.  Though maybe it's just the idea of cuts that is upsetting here, and not the move, in which case if the focus is largely on the city and there is only minor mention of cost of living, it's possible it could work, I guess. 

It really does seem like there are plenty of cities that meet that "walk out the door and be in a city and have all that a big city offers" requirement. 

Also, regarding moving to Europe, make sure you are both being realistic about it.  It can be amazing in many ways, but there are plenty of frustrations, especially if you move to a non-English speaking country.  It sounds incredibly romantic--I'm going to live in Europe--but the culture shock can creep up at the strangest of times and over the strangest of things, and it can be brutal.  Most people I know say it took them at least a year to feel even mostly settled.  I live in Stuttgart, Germany and have loved the experience, but there are some difficult aspects, too.  And I'm fortunate enough to be affiliated with the military, so I can go get a taste of little America whenever I want, which makes it easier.

begood

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Re: Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea
« Reply #329 on: August 13, 2014, 08:27:15 AM »
It feels like you're still rushing things. The "step back and take a deep breath" advice is really sound. Maybe look toward April 2016 instead of April 2015.

And though I might get punched for this... you might consider taking a step back from MMM. You don't have debt and you have an awesome 'stache. Money's not your problem. Instead, spend your time researching places where you might want to live and jobs you might like to do. Go to glassdoor.com and check out what's available in your field, or close to your field.

Having moved with an infant, I say don't do it unless you have to... and you don't have to. Moving would be yet another HUGE transition, which brings inherent stress, which y'all already have plenty of.

You know you're not going to stay at your job indefinitely. Take some comfort from that. When you go back to work, you can say to yourself, "It's not forever. It's just for now." But you need to chill out, and stop asking your wife questions like, "What do you think about having financial independence as one of our goals?" If there's been one piece of consistent advice in this thread, it's that now is not the time to be talking about this stuff.

So back up, back off, and put your attention toward other things for the next six to nine months. Once that little guy gets a little older, your whole perspective may shift.


historienne

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Re: Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea
« Reply #330 on: August 13, 2014, 08:49:43 AM »
Both my husband and I were stressed at 3 month post birth and our communication sucked.  At 18 month we are barely getting back to stable communication.  I really think working on separate issues before FI is important too.

Yeah, this.  I know it's been said several times already, but you have a young infant.  You are in the middle of what is notoriously the most difficult time for most marriages.  Chances are, neither of you is getting enough sleep.  Your wife in particular is still experiencing hormonal shifts; she is still at risk for PPD (which can manifest as anxiety, including anxiety about financial issues). No one is their best self with a three month old.  I get why you are frustrated by your wife's responses, but you also need to own your part in this situation.  You are proposing massive life changes at pretty much the most stressful time possible. 

You need to fix the short term issues (you and your wife are not communicating well; you hate your job) before you make drastic changes. Find a marriage counselor, and maybe start looking for a different job in your current industry to take some pressure off yourself.  Your ability to have this conversation productively will go up a lot when you are both getting more sleep and your family has adjusted to both parents being at work.  If you can find a new job that you like a bit more, it will also make the whole thing seem less of a crisis, which will make it easier to communicate calmly.

Finally,  begood is right.  Moving with an infant sucks.  We moved a half mile with a six month old; I would really, really not recommend it if you have any other options.

boy_bye

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Re: Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea
« Reply #331 on: August 13, 2014, 09:33:58 AM »
Edit:  Sorry about this, but the descriptions of you being mocked all day made me angry.  If my husband repeatedly mocked me, publicly or not, my response would be "Who, precisely, the Fuck, do you think you are? And, What makes you think you can ever speak to me this way?".

yeah, that kind of talk has been ringing my bell, too. i know too many people stuck in relationships where their partners gaslight them (you want what? you're feeling what? you're crazy!) and it just blows as a way to live your life.

to me, that kind of behavior is NEVER cool. and it might be able to be excused by sleep deprivation or hormonal wackiness or anything if it were a once in a while type of thing. but from the OP's description, this sounds like a pattern that he is growing every bit as weary of as his job.

read DoubleDown's thread about how he approached his wife on this. at some point, i fear you are going to have to stand up to her and demand some respect. it's not going to be pretty, and i don't know that right now is the best time to do it, but i don't think it should wait months either, because OP is seething at this point (rightly so) and that's not going to clear up on its own.

ThirdTimer

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Re: Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea
« Reply #332 on: August 13, 2014, 09:51:43 AM »
I want to strongly, strongly agree with Jennifer in Ottawa and the others here who are saying that figuring out a way to work on your communication in your marriage needs to be your number one priority. Mocking you is not OK, and being hormonal and stressed and sleep-deprived is NOT an excuse for treating your partner shittily. Yes, I understand that we all have bad days and end up saying something unkind, but in a healthy relationship, you'd come back the next day and say "hey, I'm really sorry I was so mean to you yesterday. I was stressed about going back to work and leaving the baby and I took it out on you. Please forgive me?" There doesn't seem to be any indication in rjg's posts that his wife thinks her behavior is wrong or unacceptable, or even that it's a new thing since having the baby. I've also noticed, rjg, that you've said multiple times in your updates that you've wanted to tell your wife something but didn't because you knew it would upset her. I hardly blame you, if her response is to mock you when you say something she doesn't like, but it's a really bad set-up for a productive relationship if you don't feel like you can talk openly to your wife about the things that are on your mind.

A lot of folks here have recommended marriage counseling. I certainly don't think it's a bad idea, but there's limited evidence that it actually increases marital satisfaction or decreases likelihood of divorce (e.g., see this Huffington Post article: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/terry-gaspard-msw-licsw/marriage-counseling-does-_b_4655577.html ). I know I mentioned this pages ago in this thread, but I'd really recommend a book by John Gottman called The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work, or, if you want something more substantial, maybe go to a couples workshop offered by the Gottman Institute. (And I don't know John Gottman or have any relationship to the marriage/couples counseling industry. I just really like that his techniques have been scientifically tested and have actually been shown to improve marriage satisfaction and lower divorce rates.)

But, yes, I know this is a financial forum and you didn't come to us asking for relationship advice, but I really think you're going to have a hard time finding a way to work this out with your wife without working a lot on your communication. So I second several others in saying focus first on getting that piece of your marriage working, and then sorting out the financial stuff will come far easier.

Also, my 1000% unsolicited opinion on what I would say to the wife today if I found myself in your shoes. It sounds like you're a bit more go-with-the-flow than I am (although I actually think of myself as a pretty easygoing person!), so maybe you weren't as bothered by her making fun of your desire for financial independence as I would be (honestly, it made me angry just reading about it). But just so you know that it's OK to be upset by that shit and to say so if you are, this is where I would be: "It really made me angry when you kept mocking me for wanting us to spend less money and become financially independent. I get that you don't like it, but that doesn't make it OK for you to belittle me just for wanting something different than what you want. We have different opinions on this right now, and sooner or later we're going to have to find a way to figure something out that makes both of us happy. But when you make fun of me just because I happen to want something different than what you want, that makes me feel like you don't care about my feelings or happiness at all, and it's really, really shitty to feel like your own wife doesn't care about your happiness."

scrubbyfish

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Re: Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea
« Reply #333 on: August 13, 2014, 10:11:44 AM »
+1 to the last several posts. Also:

My (relationship) counsellor recently recommended a book to me only to help me understand my last partner's yucky behaviour. It's called No More Mr Nice Guy (Glover). I was confused about why she would recommend this to me, since I'm not my ex-boyfriend and reading about how to be a less passive or passive-aggressive guy can't really apply to me only on the level that I'm a gal. However... I picked the book up yesterday and actually find it stunningly clear, and helpful indeed in understanding what was happening. If you have a hard time standing up to and speaking directly with your wife, I would totally recommend this book.

Like ThirdTimer, I too am a little bit leery of marriage counselling. I went to about 14 appointments with my guy and noticed that while I was doing a wild amount of work, he was...not. He wouldn't read the materials, practice any of it, etc. So, I'd definitely give it a shot but if she's not showing much effort inside and outside of the first couple of appointments, I'd probably stop investing money, time, and energy in that. However, the counselling (which I continued solo after he decided he was "fine" didn't need any help thus quit) really helped me to get clear and to ultimately leave relatively painlessly, so there's that benefit, which lots of other people report too.

rjg

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Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea
« Reply #334 on: August 13, 2014, 11:30:14 AM »
Lots of great, thoughtful advice. Sorry if this thread has become more psychological than financial.

So I did confront my wife about her behavior last night and she went on a 2 hour tirade on me for ruining her last day before going back to work. Listed everything I've ever done wrong. Again threatened to leave if I don't change. I am really bad at dealing with angry people- always feel like I am completely in the wrong. So i ended up apologizing for everything.

Later that night she apologized for "flipping out" and that she "Gets it from her family" and it's not cool.

Today she had forgotten her phone and asked if I could bring it to her work. We had lunch and she was talking about how "she'd move anywhere I found a job". She also said something about "creating your own job.

So that was good I guess - although I feel whipsawed and still don't feel comfortable really talking to her.  I never know how she's going to react or what will set her off. Even just telling her that might set her off. She just texted me that she is so "lucky to have me".

Regarding therapists, I've tried about 5 over the years for job and assertiveness issues. Mostly, it became an expensive way of venting. The last one I had seemed decent , but she kept changing her schedule plus my work schedule was crazy and it just petered out. Plus it was like 250 a pop out of pocket.

We tried marriage therapy in the past but every session would cause my wife to get angry and start crying. I always felt bad for whatever I said. At the time, I also spoke about frugality and pairing back. My wife referred to it as my "simple life" idea at the time and even the therapist seemed to side with her. Told me that "you have a certain lifestyle to maintain" or something like that. Said "you have to hustle". Basically came out of it feeling stupid and wrong. She was good at making me sound crazy by repeating sound bites and then saying "that's just crazy". I sucked at defending myself.

I think sometimes that in NYC if you don't express the desire to work as hard as possible for as much money as possible people assume you are depressed or crazy.

So I just haven't found the right people - but it's hard to be too motivated about trying it again after my past experiences.

Definitely going to check out those books!

Thanks for all the helpful supportive comments. It is hard to talk about this with my friends and family. And it is nice to feel crazy for some of the ideas I have.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2014, 11:37:35 AM by rjg »

PloddingInsight

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Re: Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea
« Reply #335 on: August 13, 2014, 12:28:15 PM »
rjg, I highly recommend you google Athol Kay and read his book.

okashira

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Re: Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea
« Reply #336 on: August 13, 2014, 12:41:10 PM »
Lots of great, thoughtful advice. Sorry if this thread has become more psychological than financial.

So I did confront my wife about her behavior last night and she went on a 2 hour tirade on me for ruining her last day before going back to work. Listed everything I've ever done wrong. Again threatened to leave if I don't change. I am really bad at dealing with angry people- always feel like I am completely in the wrong. So i ended up apologizing for everything.

Later that night she apologized for "flipping out" and that she "Gets it from her family" and it's not cool.

Today she had forgotten her phone and asked if I could bring it to her work. We had lunch and she was talking about how "she'd move anywhere I found a job". She also said something about "creating your own job.

So that was good I guess - although I feel whipsawed and still don't feel comfortable really talking to her.  I never know how she's going to react or what will set her off. Even just telling her that might set her off. She just texted me that she is so "lucky to have me".

Regarding therapists, I've tried about 5 over the years for job and assertiveness issues. Mostly, it became an expensive way of venting. The last one I had seemed decent , but she kept changing her schedule plus my work schedule was crazy and it just petered out. Plus it was like 250 a pop out of pocket.

We tried marriage therapy in the past but every session would cause my wife to get angry and start crying. I always felt bad for whatever I said. At the time, I also spoke about frugality and pairing back. My wife referred to it as my "simple life" idea at the time and even the therapist seemed to side with her. Told me that "you have a certain lifestyle to maintain" or something like that. Said "you have to hustle". Basically came out of it feeling stupid and wrong. She was good at making me sound crazy by repeating sound bites and then saying "that's just crazy". I sucked at defending myself.

I think sometimes that in NYC if you don't express the desire to work as hard as possible for as much money as possible people assume you are depressed or crazy.

So I just haven't found the right people - but it's hard to be too motivated about trying it again after my past experiences.

Definitely going to check out those books!

Thanks for all the helpful supportive comments. It is hard to talk about this with my friends and family. And it is nice to feel crazy for some of the ideas I have.

That's the problem with a therapist; good chance they are an idiot. They are not good for lifestyle advice. Stick to the communication issues

On the 2 hour tirade, I don't even know what to say. This is on both of you. If it was me in your shoes, there would have been no tirade; I would have just walked out, at worst. You choose to put up with it so you promote that behavior.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2014, 12:43:25 PM by okashira »

okashira

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Re: Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea
« Reply #337 on: August 13, 2014, 12:52:45 PM »
Maybe you should write her a letter. This way you can say what you want to say but can't because of your problem with assertiveness.
A letter is great because you can say exactly what you want to say, and you have time to review it for tact, rudeness and something won't "come out wrong,"
You can explain that you don't deal with her "tirades" (again, use good tact here...) and you will just have to walk away if she starts yelling (as in another room, or leave to a friend's house until she cools off"
If she does, stick to your guns and walk away and tell her she needs to calm down. This way you will have a pre-planned, simple response if she starts to get unreasonable. And she will know what to expect if you do.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2014, 12:54:19 PM by okashira »

neo von retorch

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Re: Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea
« Reply #338 on: August 13, 2014, 01:29:15 PM »
I'd also recommend a book like The One-life Solution by Henry Cloud. Your wife is taking advantage of your weak boundaries. You should not be feeling so bad and guilty and confused and crazy because you're bringing up valid goals and concerns. That's a very toxic communication style. I've experienced it in the past, and it must be dealt with differently than what you've done before.

One of the most basic lessons in that book is that we don't realize how different someone other than ourselves might react to "new information." We simply have to be informed, told something new, and we consider it and add it to our decision-making tree, which shapes our behavior. But there is a whole other set of people that tend to be reactive, and to largely only consider how things affect themselves - they'll listen to your new information, and say that they hear it, and they might even change for a short while to accommodate you, but before long, they will resume behaving as they have before, which is based on what affects them, rather than consideration for other people. Again, I recommend the book because you'll get a deeper understanding of what I'm trying to explain, as well as what you can do differently to get somewhere in enforcing your boundaries and making progress towards your goals.

Jennifer in Ottawa

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Re: Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea
« Reply #339 on: August 13, 2014, 03:33:23 PM »
Not to harp on the issue, but you do realize, don't you, that if the genders were reversed you would be considered an emotionally and psychologically abused wife.

ch12

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Re: Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea
« Reply #340 on: August 13, 2014, 04:14:12 PM »
Lots of great, thoughtful advice. Sorry if this thread has become more psychological than financial.

So I did confront my wife about her behavior last night and she went on a 2 hour tirade on me for ruining her last day before going back to work. Listed everything I've ever done wrong. Again threatened to leave if I don't change. I am really bad at dealing with angry people- always feel like I am completely in the wrong. So i ended up apologizing for everything.

We're here for support - Mustachianism is about more than money. :)

I have a small amount of counseling/mediation training, and the bolded part is called kitchen-sinking. It's a very unhealthy thing to have in arguments.
http://books.google.com/books?id=5YlDMmeSmyYC&pg=PA58&lpg=PA58&dq=argument+kitchensinking&source=bl&ots=Zizl8zM_lW&sig=ZSsoA12woHpM5giqheSo8aKTa58&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3eHrU4bqOpL2yQTj54CoCg&ved=0CGEQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=argument%20kitchensinking&f=false

Not to harp on the issue, but you do realize, don't you, that if the genders were reversed you would be considered an emotionally and psychologically abused wife.

+1

Everyone would jump on the scumbag husband who forced the wife to go back, even though she wanted to stay home with the kids. Over here, we're trending towards more gender equality, and so we think it's the exact same when the dad wants to stay home with the kids. Equal opportunity for both genders is necessary.

Don't do this, but it's part of Lean In that guys have to spend more time at the kitchen table. I imagined you going up to her and saying, "Lean In to your career! I'll support you!"

zataks

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Re: Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea
« Reply #341 on: August 13, 2014, 04:41:03 PM »
Threatening to leave if you don't change and listing everything you've ever done wrong is bullying and a terrible way to treat someone.   It sounds like she's probably threatened and generally terrified about the changes you're suggesting and what it could mean to her lifestyle. 

There have already been many good suggestions so I won't add much beyond re-emphasizing the importance of amicable communication.  This can be difficult but maybe try practicing this stuff with a friend--talking out you're points with a friend and seeing how they respond and what sorts of responses they might think of. 

Also approach conversations and interactions with compassion; it sounds like your wife is scared and reacting aggressively to bowl you over into not changing and I would guess that she probably is wondering where your desire to change your lifestyle is coming from and probably feels a little disconnected from you.  I would attempt to connect emotionally, compassionately, and make an effort to respectfully discuss.  "this is what I'm thinking and what I would like, how do you feel about that where do you see that going; how can we compromise here?"  sort of thing.


makinbutter

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Re: Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea
« Reply #342 on: August 13, 2014, 05:32:55 PM »
Bro, are you my long-lost twin...?

I will say that I signed up for the forums SPECIFICALLY to comment to your post.  What you are experiencing with your missus is EXACTLY the same sort of stuff that I went through, both on the external end ("You're crazy!  You're nuts!" followed at times later by *weep weep*) and more importantly on the internal end (complete with thoughts of self-recrimination, like "I must be a crazy/bad dude for causing this pain - I'd better apologize to right the ship ASAP!").

There have been three books that changed my life.
1) the Bible
2) "The Alchemist" by Paulo Coelho
3) "Boundaries: When to Say Yes, How to Say No to Take Control of Your Life" by Cloud/Townsend.

I cannot recommend the third enough.  Please read it. Please read it. Please read it.

I will say, though, that the authors do sometimes employ Christian principles / Biblical references, so if that's not your cup of tea, the book might not resonate with you.  Full disclosure - as you could probably guess from my list above, I was more likely to be buyin' what they were sellin.'

What you need to do - like yesterday - is start working on healthy boundaries.  Your wife comes home and flies off the handle at you because "you're ruining her last night out of work"?  You CAN'T take her pain/emotions on.  You go to counseling and end up apologizing for everything?  Your inner monologue is telling you that you're the bad guy?  Boundaries, boundaries, boundaries.

Anyhow, at the risk of gettin' all kinds of religious on ya, I have been praying for you (all three of you guys!) and will continue to do so.  Take a peek at Cloud/Townsend's work (and I heartily second the Gottman recommendation!).  I have no affiliation to those guys and I'm just some random joker on the Internet, but your situation pulled at my heartstrings and I had to comment.  Good luck, bro.

(oh, and wanted to add - props for setting yourself up financially at your age!! can you imagine the shit-fit if you had to slog away another ten or twenty years to get to the point you're at now?  Allow yourself a pat on the back for that)

mozar

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Re: Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea
« Reply #343 on: August 13, 2014, 06:11:02 PM »
More (non religious) book recommendations:

Codependent No More
Feeling Good, The new mood therapy

When I finally stood up to my ex and told them they couldn't try to control me/demean me anymore, they left in a hurry.
Reading MMM also helped me realize I'm not crazy for being frugal.

scrubbyfish

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Re: Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea
« Reply #344 on: August 13, 2014, 06:14:09 PM »
Cloud/Townsend (or just Cloud) have been brought up twice in the last few posts. Between posts, I was reading, and the book I was reading about really crappy marriages also recommended Boundaries: When to Say Yes, How to Say No to Take Control of Your Life by Cloud/Townsend.

I read that book many, many years ago. I, too, found it life-changing. Absolutely. It does indeed have Christian references, which is very nice for folks that are trying to be nice/flexible/generous/kind/etc due to feeling their faith specifically asks them to be. Personally, not sharing that faith, I was repelled by several of those references, but I still loved the book! I think that says a lot for it. Thus, I "fourth" this recommendation.

No More Mr Nice Guy, that I mentioned earlier, seems to be entirely secular, and also entirely about developing internal and external boundaries. Not being able to remember the details of the Cloud/Townsend book, I am most excited about the possibility of you reading this newer one. But, when you glance at each of the many recommendations now in this thread, you will know which style/language/content resonates most with you anyway.

(Hee - I think those of us who have gone the journey of zero boundaries to pretty healthy ones are as zealous as we are about MMM itself! It's because it's life-changing to a similar degree, for sure.)

zataks

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Re: Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea
« Reply #345 on: August 13, 2014, 06:16:18 PM »
Reading MMM also helped me realize I'm not crazy for being frugal.

Yea, no doubt. 
Can I also just say Eff that therapist for calling you crazy.  My guess would be that it was a garbage therapist as I can't imagine any therapist I've ever seen (seen both good and not so good) directing the word crazy at me or my actions.  But then again, how can s/he justify the $150+/hour fee being charge if they encourage frugality?!

LadyStache

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Re: Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea
« Reply #346 on: August 14, 2014, 12:05:25 AM »
So I did confront my wife about her behavior last night and she went on a 2 hour tirade on me for ruining her last day before going back to work. Listed everything I've ever done wrong. Again threatened to leave if I don't change. I am really bad at dealing with angry people- always feel like I am completely in the wrong. So i ended up apologizing for everything.

So at the beginning of this thread, I thought your wife was just a bit hormonal. It definitely seems like more than that. She sounds really controlling and manipulative. It also sounds like she cares more about her wants than your needs.

although I feel whipsawed and still don't feel comfortable really talking to her.  I never know how she's going to react or what will set her off. Even just telling her that might set her off. She just texted me that she is so "lucky to have me".
Example of manipulative behavior?

We tried marriage therapy in the past but every session would cause my wife to get angry and start crying. I always felt bad for whatever I said. At the time, I also spoke about frugality and pairing back. My wife referred to it as my "simple life" idea at the time and even the therapist seemed to side with her. Told me that "you have a certain lifestyle to maintain" or something like that. Said "you have to hustle". Basically came out of it feeling stupid and wrong. She was good at making me sound crazy by repeating sound bites and then saying "that's just crazy". I sucked at defending myself.

Getting angry and crying at the first sign of disagreement = manipulative.
She even manipulated the therapist into siding with her. Future therapy with her probably wouldn't work for this reason. It would probably be better to do therapy solo to help you learn more effective techniques for standing your ground.


Also, sometimes it can be really good to call people out when they aren't being respectful of your ideas. Once I mentioned an idea I had to my boyfriend and he cut me off and started telling me what a bad idea it was. I responded by telling him that he didn't let me finish explaining it before making judgments. He immediately realized what a complainypants he was being at that moment, apologized, heard me out, and was a lot more open-minded about it in the end.

LadyStache

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Re: Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea
« Reply #347 on: August 14, 2014, 12:11:00 AM »
Reading MMM also helped me realize I'm not crazy for being frugal.

Yea, no doubt. 
Can I also just say Eff that therapist for calling you crazy.  My guess would be that it was a garbage therapist as I can't imagine any therapist I've ever seen (seen both good and not so good) directing the word crazy at me or my actions.  But then again, how can s/he justify the $150+/hour fee being charge if they encourage frugality?!

I read it as his wife calling him crazy, not the therapist. I think therapists generally try to avoid calling their patients crazy (at least to their face).

zataks

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Re: Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea
« Reply #348 on: August 14, 2014, 07:55:39 AM »
I read it as his wife calling him crazy, not the therapist. I think therapists generally try to avoid calling their patients crazy (at least to their face).

I originally didn't but going back, that would make a lot more sense. 

BooksAreNerdy

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Re: Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea
« Reply #349 on: August 14, 2014, 08:31:28 AM »
This is about control. Your wife wants control. This is nothing new. This is not post partum hormones. This is a repeatable pattern of behavior. She is post partum and has hormones, yes, but that's now what this is about.

She wants to control the life 'she' has built, which is a vast improvement from the one she had growing up. She will not make sacrifices. If you want to quit, you are threatening her realm of control. So, maybe SHE will quit her job so that you won't be able to quit yours.

She will manipulate and brow beat you until you see how wrong/crazy/bad you are.

I know having a new baby throws a big kink in the mix. But you don't have money problems. You have relationship problems.

If it were me, I would be going to therapy and a lawyer, both. Just chat with the lawyer. Find out what could happen financially if she DOES follow through on the divorce threats. Know that she won't though, you are funding her lifestyle. She is just using these threats to control you. However, with such high net worth, I think it is prudent to have a lawyer involved.

Also, I would drop the conversations about money. If you want to cancel a service or membership, do it. If the wife argues, tell her she can pay for it herself. If she doesn't want to work, but wants luxuries, sell the house and let her use 'her' money to fund her lifestyle.

I'm sorry your wife is such a witch about it all. Just know it isn't about you. You are smart, capable, and make good choices. I've been impressed with how well you have sorted through the advice on this thread. Best of luck.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!