Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea

[Gin1984]

This is about control. Your wife wants control. This is nothing new. This is not post partum hormones. This is a repeatable pattern of behavior. She is post partum and has hormones, yes, but that's now what this is about.

She wants to control the life 'she' has built, which is a vast improvement from the one she had growing up. She will not make sacrifices. If you want to quit, you are threatening her realm of control. So, maybe SHE will quit her job so that you won't be able to quit yours.

She will manipulate and brow beat you until you see how wrong/crazy/bad you are.

I know having a new baby throws a big kink in the mix. But you don't have money problems. You have relationship problems.

If it were me, I would be going to therapy and a lawyer, both. Just chat with the lawyer. Find out what could happen financially if she DOES follow through on the divorce threats. Know that she won't though, you are funding her lifestyle. She is just using these threats to control you. However, with such high net worth, I think it is prudent to have a lawyer involved.

Also, I would drop the conversations about money. If you want to cancel a service or membership, do it. If the wife argues, tell her she can pay for it herself. If she doesn't want to work, but wants luxuries, sell the house and let her use 'her' money to fund her lifestyle.

I'm sorry your wife is such a witch about it all. Just know it isn't about you. You are smart, capable, and make good choices. I've been impressed with how well you have sorted through the advice on this thread. Best of luck.

Hey no insulting witches now.  :P  Witches are a whole religion now. :)

[dragoncar]

This is about control. Your wife wants control. This is nothing new. This is not post partum hormones. This is a repeatable pattern of behavior. She is post partum and has hormones, yes, but that's now what this is about.

She wants to control the life 'she' has built, which is a vast improvement from the one she had growing up. She will not make sacrifices. If you want to quit, you are threatening her realm of control. So, maybe SHE will quit her job so that you won't be able to quit yours.

She will manipulate and brow beat you until you see how wrong/crazy/bad you are.

I know having a new baby throws a big kink in the mix. But you don't have money problems. You have relationship problems.

If it were me, I would be going to therapy and a lawyer, both. Just chat with the lawyer. Find out what could happen financially if she DOES follow through on the divorce threats. Know that she won't though, you are funding her lifestyle. She is just using these threats to control you. However, with such high net worth, I think it is prudent to have a lawyer involved.

Also, I would drop the conversations about money. If you want to cancel a service or membership, do it. If the wife argues, tell her she can pay for it herself. If she doesn't want to work, but wants luxuries, sell the house and let her use 'her' money to fund her lifestyle.

I'm sorry your wife is such a witch about it all. Just know it isn't about you. You are smart, capable, and make good choices. I've been impressed with how well you have sorted through the advice on this thread. Best of luck.

Hey no insulting witches now.  :P  Witches are a whole religion now. :)

A persecuted one at that.  And Wicca good and loved the earth, and woman power, and i'll be over here.

[Moonwaves]

And Wicca good and loved the earth, and woman power, and i'll be over here.

Once More with Feeling - woohoo! ROFLMAO

[neo von retorch]

Yeah... what makinbutter and scrubbyfish said. I am not Christian, which is why I like The One-Life Solution. While it does seem a bit like a book about work balance on the cover, it is really the non-Christian version of the Boundaries book. You learn the same things, but without the Bible references. (And what you learn about boundaries is very applicable to both relationships and work.)

[rjg]

I was at a bookstore today and found the boundaries book. The other recommendations were out if stock. Like some of you, I could do without the biblical references but it's still helpful. I've read half of it so far, and it's a little high level though- would be great if it had some more examples of boundary setting in action.

Regardless it's very clear to me that I have boundary issues that cause problems at both home and work.

One thing the book mentions is not to try to start setting boundaries alone- get support from a therapist or group such as al anon. Maybe I'll try the 12 step thing though I've never been a big fan.

But it's clear this will be a tough battle for me. In the interim, I'm not sure how to proceed at both work/home. If I truly said what I felt, it could result in the loss of both my marriage and my job. Regardless of whether that would actually be a good thing in the long run, it would be a lot to handle at once, plus care for a baby.

But if I wait till I feel prepared, my anger and resentment could reach a boiling point.

Any suggestions for interim ways to better manage my home and work relationships?

I recently got an email from the hr person asking when my return date was because "they have urgent  staffing needs". In other words, it will be shit storm when I return.

Here are some examples of boundaries I'd "like" to set:
Work:
-Not going to agree to a timeline before scoping the work with the team that will do it
(Boss will say "we just need a ballpark"..ballpark turns into iron clad)
-not going to work more than 8 hours a day
(Boss will say "thats fine as long as the work gets done)
-not going to change/cancel vacation or weekend/evening  plans
(Same as above)
-not going to be responsible for dealing with last minute fire drills created by others poor planning
(Boss will say "lets not focus in what we to wrong but how we are going to fix it. This is an important client and we have to get this done)
-Going to need more time when using offshore staff
(Boss will say "we have to be smart about it/be creative".. Or some other type of vague nonsense )

At home, I'd like to say:
"No we can't go out to eat tonight because it's too expensive"
(Wife will say "why are you being so cheap?! Is this about your simple life plan again?! Or "but I'm really craving it!"  "It's been such a stressful week!"

"I'd really like to discuss my ideas about financial independence"

"I'd like to take a lower paying job with less stress"
(Her: "you need to think about your family" "any job can be stressful if you let it" "I want an ambitious husband not a loser"

[zataks]

One thing I've learned is to not answer my own questions for someone else; you've already answered all your boundaries with what you think others will say.  This is very self-defeating and exhausting and while I'm sure you have a good idea of what you think they might say, you have to assert yourself to get what you need and want.  Anyone can think of a thousand reasons why someone will tell them no but rarely focus on why someone will acquiesce; focus of the positive; focus on the yes.  Never underestimate the power of positive mental attitude/positive thinking.

No we can't go out to eat tonight because it's too expensive

Stop phrasing things like this to your wife for a while; it's abundantly clear it is ineffective and causes strife.  Focus on the positives of staying in, "let's cook dinner together so I can get exactly what I want/a healthy meal/a date night in/etcetc."  Or try, "I'm cooking dinner tonight."  No question, no discussion, you just do it.  If she wants to take herself out, she can.  Or also try phasing into things like this like, "I'll cook dinner and then we can go out for dessert!"  and hit a ice cream shop or small bakery.

If I truly said what I felt, it could result in the loss of both my marriage and my job

I think what you meant to say is, "If I unleash all my anger at once on anyone it will be devastating for the relationship with whoever happens to be near."  When you should probably be focusing on more how you really feel and what is causing the anger.  For example, "I feel isolated, lonely, trapped, frustrated, pissed, that any time I bring up reducing our spending even a little, you scream/cry/yell."  "I feel hurt, unhappy with the demand being put on my by you (boss) and don't feel as though I'm being respected in my proven capacities and it is inhibiting my ability"  Or whatever the problem with work is.

Regarding the "ballpark" timeline.  Give a response as though you were working with the worst crew possible.  4 month job but bad crew, tell him 6 months.  When you finish in 5, you look good.   

And for your own sake, again, stop making other people's responses for them (in your head); that's a one way ticket to misery and defeat.


EDIT:  do you have friends you can talk to about your problems?  If not, consider seeing a therapist alone.  It's expensive but a lot cheaper than divorce/losing your job and your happiness is worth it.
Are you getting physical activity?  There isn't much anger/frustration/agitation that 30 minutes beating on a heavy bag can't relieve.

[Rika Non]

I was at a bookstore today and found the boundaries book. The other recommendations were out if stock. Like some of you, I could do without the biblical references but it's still helpful. I've read half of it so far, and it's a little high level though- would be great if it had some more examples of boundary setting in action.

Regardless it's very clear to me that I have boundary issues that cause problems at both home and work.

One thing the book mentions is not to try to start setting boundaries alone- get support from a therapist or group such as al anon. Maybe I'll try the 12 step thing though I've never been a big fan.

But it's clear this will be a tough battle for me. In the interim, I'm not sure how to proceed at both work/home. If I truly said what I felt, it could result in the loss of both my marriage and my job. Regardless of whether that would actually be a good thing in the long run, it would be a lot to handle at once, plus care for a baby.

But if I wait till I feel prepared, my anger and resentment could reach a boiling point.

Any suggestions for interim ways to better manage my home and work relationships?

I recently got an email from the hr person asking when my return date was because "they have urgent  staffing needs". In other words, it will be shit storm when I return.

Here are some examples of boundaries I'd "like" to set:
Work:
-Not going to agree to a timeline before scoping the work with the team that will do it
(Boss will say "we just need a ballpark"..ballpark turns into iron clad)
-not going to work more than 8 hours a day
(Boss will say "thats fine as long as the work gets done)
-not going to change/cancel vacation or weekend/evening  plans
(Same as above)
-not going to be responsible for dealing with last minute fire drills created by others poor planning
(Boss will say "lets not focus in what we to wrong but how we are going to fix it. This is an important client and we have to get this done)
-Going to need more time when using offshore staff
(Boss will say "we have to be smart about it/be creative".. Or some other type of vague nonsense )

At home, I'd like to say:
"No we can't go out to eat tonight because it's too expensive"
(Wife will say "why are you being so cheap?! Is this about your simple life plan again?! Or "but I'm really craving it!"  "It's been such a stressful week!"

"I'd really like to discuss my ideas about financial independence"

"I'd like to take a lower paying job with less stress"
(Her: "you need to think about your family" "any job can be stressful if you let it" "I want an ambitious husband not a loser"

rjg:

Home life I have no clue about since I don't deal with those sorts of things.

But for the balance at work, the way to get things better is to find a middle ground.  If you abruptly start not being willing to be a little flexible it will backfire on you.  I am sure you know a few of "those guys" that never seem to have to work late, and don't get the crap rained down on them.  But the other side of "those guys" is that they always handle thier work prossionally, they always make thier deadlines, they seldom volunteer but will do what is asked.  The way to get there is that with all the work on your plate you need to be very up front about expectations.  "Yes I can handle this project X, but if I start on X this week, Y which was already committed to by Manager Z will not be done on time.  Will you address this with Manager Z or can this wait till project Y is finished?"

It is a fine balancing act between too rigid ("saying "no") and being walked over.  Gradual change is better.  Also there are slight differneces in all corporate cultures.  Find a couple guys who have that balance you want, and really watch how they respond to peers and managers.  That will help more than any book or therapist.

If HR is calling, get your butt back to work.  If you don't it will be held against you.  It will suck either way, but if you head back sooner you at least have a chip on your side, ("Look I came back when you called, but I still have things at home that need me").

[neo von retorch]

One of the big things you learn with consequences is that you are "responsible to" others but not "for" them, and "your consequences are your own."

Work needs you, but they also take advantage of you. If "the work won't get done on the timeline I set if you don't work more than 8 hours" then you say "I understand that. You set an unrealistic timeline, and that's not achievable, but I've made it clear that I'm not available for more than 8 hours, so you have to start setting deadlines based on what I tell you, or you have to find additional staff elsewhere. I'm fulfilling my responsibility to you as an employee, and it's your responsibility to set achievable deadlines and ensure that the resources available to you are enough." (Obviously you have to progress from where you are now to this point. Start with communicating your boundaries and work up to enforcing them.) Again, work needs you - if they are struggling to meet deadlines with you working 8 hours, they aren't going to do very well when you work 0. So they are NOT likely to fire you for "only working 8 hours."

Your wife needs you (or at least, really wants you around for the lifestyle she wants.) She might be a little upset that she didn't get to go out to eat on a Tuesday night, but she'd be really upset if she was fending for herself without you around. Again, you have to start communicating your boundaries... "Our long-term goals are important to us, not just what we want right now. Because of that, we can't eat out more than once a week or we compromise on our goals. I know we can make a great team and be a good family together as long as we value each other's goals and needs and work together on achieving them. Since I know you're hungry for Italian, I'll cook some for you tonight!"

[scrubbyfish]

LOVED zataks' post! (Subsequent ones posted while I was typing this.)

Adding: Learning boundaries is a steep learning curve, is terrifying when we start, and takes lots of practice.
When we practice boundaries, especially if we haven't before, people do react.
We need to be emotionally and psychologically prepared for the tantrums some people will indeed have in response.
It won't be necessarily easy or smooth, no. But it will be worth it.

When we are first learning boundaries, many of us tend to swing to the other end of the boundary pendulum (from none/weak to overdoing). Be aware of that potential, adjust as needed, forgive yourself.

I like practicing them in writing. So, if you can keep your dialogue with your boss to email at this point, you can practice: drafting, review boundaries book (or checking in here), revising, sending...breathing through his response, pondering it, pondering your response.

One boundary piece is that nothing is an emergency. We can take all the time we need to respond to proposals, questions, etc. For those of us who've struggled with boundary stuff for decades, this one step -of taking the time we need to determine our true response- can be a lifesaver.

[zataks]

Thanks scrubbyfish.

One boundary piece is that nothing is an emergency. We can take all the time we need to respond to proposals, questions, etc. For those of us who've struggled with boundary stuff for decades, this one step -of taking the time we need to determine our true response- can be a lifesaver.

Seconding this

[DoubleDown]

Here's a simple strategy that really wins at work, lets you dictate reasonable terms, all while getting recognition and raises and promotions: Be positive and exude a "can do", cheerful attitude all the time for your management. Then keep them informed. It's that easy.

When your boss says, "We need to get this project done for Client X in <unlikely or impossible timeline>", a good response is, "You've got it, I'll do my best", said in a confident and cheerful tone. If you feel it is really necessary, you can mention one or two expected hurdles along the way (like offshore work delays) so your boss is not caught off guard if/when they occur. But if you mention those hurdles, make sure to follow it up with a positive statement like, "But we'll do everything we can to make it work."

This is what the boss wants to hear. It tells them right away that you are on their side looking for wins, not problems. They don't want to hear negativity or reasons why it can't be done, or "reality." That's why they make vague statements like, "We'll have to work creatively" and so on. They just want you to say "Okay, we'll get it done!"

Then as you work on the project, keep your boss apprised of progress every step of the way. Let them know of successes, and any issues as they arise. Suggest solutions, and ask for their buy-in. But always project that positive, can-do attitude, tell them you are doing everything you can to get this project completed successfully. Let them know you are on the boss' team, and you want our team to succeed. Then go home at 5:00 or whatever reasonable time every day.

If you are eventually unable to make the unlikely/impossible deadline they set, they will think it's because problems largely outside your control came about, not because you were slacking or incompetent. After all, you kept them up to date at every step, they were aware of the hurdles at every step, and they were part of the decision-making along the way. And you gave them the "can do" attitude, so it's clearly not because you weren't trying or didn't take it seriously.

And of course, be competent (which we already know you are). As long as the boss isn't seeing obvious failure or mistakes directly caused by you, they aren't going to blame you for any issues that arise. It would be like blaming themselves, which bosses definitely don't do. They like you, you're on their team -- they aren't going to blame you any more than they will blame themselves. Nope, they'll blame the problems on the actual factors that arose, or the guy on the team without the can-do attitude.

[Villanelle]

I was at a bookstore today and found the boundaries book. The other recommendations were out if stock. Like some of you, I could do without the biblical references but it's still helpful. I've read half of it so far, and it's a little high level though- would be great if it had some more examples of boundary setting in action.

Regardless it's very clear to me that I have boundary issues that cause problems at both home and work.

One thing the book mentions is not to try to start setting boundaries alone- get support from a therapist or group such as al anon. Maybe I'll try the 12 step thing though I've never been a big fan.

But it's clear this will be a tough battle for me. In the interim, I'm not sure how to proceed at both work/home. If I truly said what I felt, it could result in the loss of both my marriage and my job. Regardless of whether that would actually be a good thing in the long run, it would be a lot to handle at once, plus care for a baby.

But if I wait till I feel prepared, my anger and resentment could reach a boiling point.

Any suggestions for interim ways to better manage my home and work relationships?

I recently got an email from the hr person asking when my return date was because "they have urgent  staffing needs". In other words, it will be shit storm when I return.

Here are some examples of boundaries I'd "like" to set:
Work:
-Not going to agree to a timeline before scoping the work with the team that will do it
(Boss will say "we just need a ballpark"..ballpark turns into iron clad)
-not going to work more than 8 hours a day
(Boss will say "thats fine as long as the work gets done)
-not going to change/cancel vacation or weekend/evening  plans
(Same as above)
-not going to be responsible for dealing with last minute fire drills created by others poor planning
(Boss will say "lets not focus in what we to wrong but how we are going to fix it. This is an important client and we have to get this done)
-Going to need more time when using offshore staff
(Boss will say "we have to be smart about it/be creative".. Or some other type of vague nonsense )

At home, I'd like to say:
"No we can't go out to eat tonight because it's too expensive"
(Wife will say "why are you being so cheap?! Is this about your simple life plan again?! Or "but I'm really craving it!"  "It's been such a stressful week!"

"I'd really like to discuss my ideas about financial independence"

"I'd like to take a lower paying job with less stress"
(Her: "you need to think about your family" "any job can be stressful if you let it" "I want an ambitious husband not a loser"

No we can't go out to eat tonight because it's too expensive--That's a dictate.  Dictates aren't really how healthy partnerships work.  Yes, your wife's behavior is unhealthy, but responding with finite statements of your own isn't going to make things better, and it isn't fair or especially reasonable.

Your saying flat refusal to allow eating out is no better than her refusal not to eat out.  You guys have to meet in the middle.  Try getting her to agree to some sort of budget.  You give by allowing $400 per month on eating out, she gives by reducing from the current $600 (or whatever it is).

See if she's willing to sit down and work on things.  Because right now, it seems both of you are making pronouncements to one another.

Perhaps, as bitter as it may be, start with an apology.  "Look, I'm sorry that I sprung all that on you out of the blue.  It was bad timing, and it was extreme and unexpected for you.  That was wrong, and I apologize.  Perhaps we can start over.  All I want is a life where we and Daughter are happy and secure and fulfilled.  I'd like to sit down with you to discuss ways that w can make that happen, and see what changes both of us--not just you, but both of us--are willing to make in order to lead us toward that change.  Not right now.  I want you to have time to think about it.  But maybe next weekend in the afternoon, we can sit down.  if we each bring a list of things that are most important, and maybe a mental list of things that are flexible, that might be a good start.  I don't want you to live a life where you feel deprived, and I know you don't want me to live a life where I dread going to work every day.  I can't go on as things are [There's your boundary, or at least the start of it~] but I'm sure there a solution that gets both of us what we need. Let's work on a plan, starting with a conversation next weekend, that gets us all there."

[BooksAreNerdy]

I've tried to attach a PDF of something called the passion test. It basically is an exercise you and DW can do together that helps you both decide what are the most important values in your lives. I would give her a copy and print a copy for yourself. Spend a few days working on the activity. Then come together and compare lists.

Really really try to value your wife's passions and hope that she also values yours. If she is condescending or rude, call her out and ask for her respect and kindness.

[rjg]

I've tried to attach a PDF of something called the passion test. It basically is an exercise you and DW can do together that helps you both decide what are the most important values in your lives. I would give her a copy and print a copy for yourself. Spend a few days working on the activity. Then come together and compare lists.

Really really try to value your wife's passions and hope that she also values yours. If she is condescending or rude, call her out and ask for her respect and kindness.

Looks interesting - ill give it a try!

Double down -

that's so simple it just might work! A few things though:
-generally the timelines I'm handed are under estimated by atkeast 2 months from the beginning. So by the end if day 1 you're behind.
-or, my favorite, the client requests a last minute meeting or recurring late night /early morning meetings.
-when the shit inevitably hits the fan my boss likes to see everyone working nights and weekends to try and get it done. It's really a semi coerced form of unpaid overtime
-if I'm the one that doesn't show up for that (and I've tried that tactic) I become the fall guy. Because I don't care about my job I can sort of deal with that but it's still stressful
-in other words, I think our projects our sold in "bad faith" from the beginning with the assumption that people will be manipulated into long hours to get it done.

[CommonCents]

Are your projects comparable from one to the next?  If so, in addition to Doubledown's suggestions, what about comparing it to a past project?

"This is a lot like project X, which took us 4 months.  But if you think we can cut that time in half, we'll definitely aim for 2 and see what we can do!"  That way, you are being positive, but also not misleading from the beginning (which they can also get upset about, if you promise but don't manage to deliver.

[DoubleDown]

Ha, no doubt they're trying to hand you and everyone you work with a shit sandwich, but no problem. Here's what I'd do, and they all fall under "positive, can-do" approach that will make you an even bigger superstar at work without getting walked over:

-generally the timelines I'm handed are under estimated by atkeast 2 months from the beginning. So by the end if day 1 you're behind.

Understood, and no problem. Just confidently and cheerfully say, "Okay, we'll do everything we can to get it done by <date X>" knowing that you likely won't make it. But you are telling the truth, you will be giving it your best shot.

-or, my favorite, the client requests a last minute meeting or recurring late night /early morning meetings.

Fortunately my friend, you have the perfect, legitimate reason you can't be there -- you have a newborn and a family! But you don't have to try to weasel out or be apologetic or anything -- you just confidently state, "I can't be there first thing in the morning or late at night, but I'm free at the following times during the day. Which of these times would work for you?" You're giving them a positive solution without caving into unreasonable demands. If they persist, just repeat you can't do late or early hours (no explanation needed, although you could throw in a joke that if your newborn's diaper isn't changed in 30 mins. then NYC may be facing a Level 3 Biohazard). Then tell them again you'd be happy to meet first thing tomorrow as you pack up your things to go.

-when the shit inevitably hits the fan my boss likes to see everyone working nights and weekends to try and get it done. It's really a semi coerced form of unpaid overtime

Yes, no doubt they will squeeze every ounce of effort they can get out of everyone! I would save those nights and weekends for a few, select emergencies that really matter when your boss sees you there. So, you're showing you care. But other than that, I'd stick to giving all the dedication and positivity you can during the workday, keeping your boss apprised of progress, and heading home on time while giving your boss the indication that working extra nights and weekends really isn't going to move things forward any faster. But always keep it positive -- "Boss, (while holding your coat and gear to go home in your hands), I'm calling it a day. I've got the Flux Capacitor process running overnight, Dwight Shrute is working on ABC right now, and XYZ is queued up for first thing in the morning. The team and I will be meeting and completing DEFG tomorrow. See you then, make sure to order an extra Martini tonight!" Then leave.

-if I'm the one that doesn't show up for that (and I've tried that tactic) I become the fall guy. Because I don't care about my job I can sort of deal with that but it's still stressful

Yeah, it's stressful if you let it be, no doubt. And I don't mean to undervalue this, I totally get it. I was the same way. It is not easy to get past this, but you really must not take that kind of misplaced responsibility on yourself (see above what other posters have said about not feeling guilty for other people's issues). I'll bet you aren't really the fall guy, you  just think others think that. Your bosses are underselling the project from the start, they've set it up this way. You owe them your best effort during the normal work day, nothing more. And thank God, you are FI, so you really have it made with no worries. Look at it this way, WORST CASE SCENARIO THEY LET YOU GO -- SUCCESS!!! I will be the first to go up to NYC and buy you a celebratory beer! But sadly, that's not going to happen. Your boss is going to see a confident, on-the-ball guy who doesn't get pushed around and who is leadership material. They're going to want to promote you further and put you in charge of bigger things.

-in other words, I think our projects our sold in "bad faith" from the beginning with the assumption that people will be manipulated into long hours to get it done.

Agreed, but see above. I like the old saying, "No one can take advantage of you unless you let them."

By the way, I used to put in overtime and work my ass off to complete impossible deadlines too. But once I had paid my dues and established a reputation, that was that. I stopped spending my life at work, and my career only took off even further from there. You've already paid your dues and established a successful reputation, no one is going to fault you for leaving on time. It's highly unlikely anyone will even notice. And even if they did, f***  'em. You don't need or even want this job!

And dude, the overwhelming response on this thread tells you there are a whole lot of people that like you and are pulling for you!

[jsloan]

I've tried to attach a PDF of something called the passion test. It basically is an exercise you and DW can do together that helps you both decide what are the most important values in your lives. I would give her a copy and print a copy for yourself. Spend a few days working on the activity. Then come together and compare lists.

Really really try to value your wife's passions and hope that she also values yours. If she is condescending or rude, call her out and ask for her respect and kindness.

Looks interesting - ill give it a try!

Double down -

that's so simple it just might work! A few things though:
-generally the timelines I'm handed are under estimated by atkeast 2 months from the beginning. So by the end if day 1 you're behind.
-or, my favorite, the client requests a last minute meeting or recurring late night /early morning meetings.
-when the shit inevitably hits the fan my boss likes to see everyone working nights and weekends to try and get it done. It's really a semi coerced form of unpaid overtime
-if I'm the one that doesn't show up for that (and I've tried that tactic) I become the fall guy. Because I don't care about my job I can sort of deal with that but it's still stressful
-in other words, I think our projects our sold in "bad faith" from the beginning with the assumption that people will be manipulated into long hours to get it done.

I'm sure your already well aware of this, but in IT sometimes timelines are dictated by people without a technical background, so they really don't know the effort involved in a project.  When these instances pop-up you do not want to start a project when you know something is grossly under-scoped.  I have worked on projects that were scoped to be 100 hours by sales people that turned in 2000 hours projects.  Sometimes your best bet it to push back and ask for more detailed requirements and a formal scope document (or offer to help create the document yourself).  This allows all parties to see how much work is needed on paper before the project begins.  These documents also hold the client or stakeholders feet to fire and out exactly what they expect the system or setup to include. 

It may seem like extra work, but defining clear expectations up front have saved me on many a project.  Going with the flow on any IT project is a perfect way to invite scope creep at it worst.  You may also want to look into Agile development methodologies where you don't even define project scopes up front, you constantly keep in contact with the client and scope work in week/feature sprints.  I have found Agile to be a tough sell though because it makes a project difficult to budget for, but it is worth a shot.  It's in everybody's interest to have the most accurate estimate possible for a project, so spend some time up front and save headaches in the future!  Good Luck!     

[magickelly]

rjg, I dont' know where you work but wanted to post because I have hunch I know what you're into if you have a big digital agency gig. I switched careers into web design right around the boom - 2000 - started as a jack of all trades visual designer, information architect and light HTML coder and worked for a very small agency with local clients creating websites from discovery through production. Nothing was ever too crazy but I did have a few nights that went until midnight even there.

I went to grad school in 2005 for HCI/Design Research and by the time I came out the other end the field was now called User Experience. I went corporate and now I have a big fat fancypants UX job with with a big fat stodgy corporation. I have people who work for me and with me who are exiles from the big agencies -- the Razorfishes, the R/GA's, the Ogilvy's of the world. They would never ever ever go back to their 80+ hour workweeks. The client called at 5 PM and needs it tomorrow? Stay until midnight get it done. The client called to complain because you underdelivered? Work all night to get it up to par...

I know exactly what happens when the engagement director or account manager asks for a "swag" for than 120 day phase 1 SOW and then underbids to get the job or agrees to an unrealistic timeline to get the job. And I know what happens when a multi-million dollar client throws its weight around. Not only do I run an internal team with grateful exiles from your world so happy to be on "the other side", I am that client on the other end saying that one project we outsourced to the vendor is not up to snuff and making folks in that fancypants agency in NYC scramble like ants. We know you'll do whatever you need, you want our check and we're in control.
 
If you're in the situation I think you're in, saying you can't stay late is really not an option.

Can you go in-house? I highly recommend exploring something corporate. While I deal with all the typical batshit territorial corporate politics, I work reasonable hours, take all my vacation and I only work late by my own choice. While I'm not exactly sure what you do (sounds like you're back-end/tech) if you have any decent interactive skill set -- front or back-end -- your resume should catch recruiters' eyes, especially if you are at a "name" place (and it sounds like your wife wouldn't settle for anything less. ;-)

FWIW, I'm completely burned out on the digital/tech/UX world too, I don't like the trends or the way it's evolving -- Silicon Valley and all the apps designed to solve minor complainypants first-world problems are the bane of my existence -- and I can't wait to FIRE and do something more authentic with my life.

But if you're at the type of employer I think you're at, I highly recommend exploring an escape from the agency side of the industry first, that's for sure. Those places are designed to burn you out!

[Roses]

rjg, I dont' know where you work but wanted to post because I have hunch I know what you're into if you have a big digital agency gig. I switched careers into web design right around the boom - 2000 - started as a jack of all trades visual designer, information architect and light HTML coder and worked for a very small agency with local clients creating websites from discovery through production. Nothing was ever too crazy but I did have a few nights that went until midnight even there.

I went to grad school in 2005 for HCI/Design Research and by the time I came out the other end the field was now called User Experience. I went corporate and now I have a big fat fancypants UX job with with a big fat stodgy corporation. I have people who work for me and with me who are exiles from the big agencies -- the Razorfishes, the R/GA's, the Ogilvy's of the world. They would never ever ever go back to their 80+ hour workweeks. The client called at 5 PM and needs it tomorrow? Stay until midnight get it done. The client called to complain because you underdelivered? Work all night to get it up to par...

I know exactly what happens when the engagement director or account manager asks for a "swag" for than 120 day phase 1 SOW and then underbids to get the job or agrees to an unrealistic timeline to get the job. And I know what happens when a multi-million dollar client throws its weight around. Not only do I run an internal team with grateful exiles from your world so happy to be on "the other side", I am that client on the other end saying that one project we outsourced to the vendor is not up to snuff and making folks in that fancypants agency in NYC scramble like ants. We know you'll do whatever you need, you want our check and we're in control.
 
If you're in the situation I think you're in, saying you can't stay late is really not an option.

Can you go in-house? I highly recommend exploring something corporate. While I deal with all the typical batshit territorial corporate politics, I work reasonable hours, take all my vacation and I only work late by my own choice. While I'm not exactly sure what you do (sounds like you're back-end/tech) if you have any decent interactive skill set -- front or back-end -- your resume should catch recruiters' eyes, especially if you are at a "name" place (and it sounds like your wife wouldn't settle for anything less. ;-)

FWIW, I'm completely burned out on the digital/tech/UX world too, I don't like the trends or the way it's evolving -- Silicon Valley and all the apps designed to solve minor complainypants first-world problems are the bane of my existence -- and I can't wait to FIRE and do something more authentic with my life.

But if you're at the type of employer I think you're at, I highly recommend exploring an escape from the agency side of the industry first, that's for sure. Those places are designed to burn you out!

I was going to post something very similar.  My husband was in the same situation working for an agency where everything is client driven.  At first the diversity of projects and fast pace was exciting but it got old fast.  Like Ikell, he is now in a corporate giant with a laid back job where they bend over backward to make him comfortable and don't shut up about the importance of 'work-life balance'.  When he occasionally works late or puts in a couple hours on a weekend he makes sure to compensate by leaving early another day or taking a day off.  And the pay is better.  So that's my suggestion too - get out of client-oriented work if you can.

[rjg]

Yeah I work at an agency and totally agree that getting out if that world is top priority. The client above all else mentality is completely draining. I've been madly applying to corporate type jobs- actually any and all non agency jobs. At this point, I'd almost rather do anything else. For some reason it seems very easy for me to get another agency job but very difficult to land a corporate gig. I suspect that agencies are easier to get jobs at because they're always looking for more "cannon fodder".

One issue I have is that I've been so depressed/burned out at work for so long that my growth and performance have suffered. I have less than 0 interest in what I do so I end up doing the minimum. And I can barely remember the details of projects I've worked on - I just sort of block them out. If you asked me to describe a technology I've worked with, I could muster a few high level sentences at best.

As some of you pointed out, it's very hard to say no to client fire drills in this environment. Sure, I could do it but it would lead quickly to being fired. Now that's not necessarily a bad thing in my mind but I might as well just resign if I'm going to try that. Getting a fat layoff package like financial samurai  did would be nice but that's never going to happen- they give 2 weeks pay if you're lucky. Still, I think double downs advice of combining "positive can do" with leaving at 5 might be the best/only option  till I either have a resignation plan or another job.

The only people that seem to get away  wjth having good hours are those who are complete assholes. They come to meetings, yell at everyone  then storm off. People are scared of them and I sometimes see these guys leacing at 4 or 5. At this point, I'd try it if I could pull it off.

Despite the issues at home, being away from the office on leave has helped me regain a little confidence and hope. So I've seized on that to apply for as many jobs as possible before I go back. I'm still young, healthy and have energy when I'm not at work so I've got to think there's a place for me somewhere.

Totally agree on the BS factor of the tech industry. Im so tired of social media and ridiculous apps. The good part about that is that I never use Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, for personal use so I'm not "addicted" like many are. And if I hear the words "platform", "mobile" and "digital" any more I think I'm going to puke.

But I'm loving life as a SAHD right now - wish I could keep doing it!

[jsloan]

If you're in the situation I think you're in, saying you can't stay late is really not an option.

Is this really not an option?  I work in consulting and yes you have to stay late every once in a while to hit a deadline, but when this happens over and over again it is a sign of a poorly planned/executed project plan.  Do you have control over project scope at all or is it dictated to you? 

I don't know how many times I have been on client calls and said that I needed to leave because it was getting late and that I would look into it more in the morning.  Mostly everyone is relieved because they are afraid to speak up and do it themselves.  Outside of the few workaholics on the call that get pissed, f-them, its usually their fault you are behind to begin with.  Having "all hands on deck" to complete an overdue project is really just a sign that the point person has messed up the timeline and is looking for help fast.  Let them deal with their own fall-out.  Make an excuse that you cannot help because you have other projects/clients that take precedence.  Can you tell I'm a bit jaded? :-).   

I would also plan to have a chat with your direct superior about the situation.  Be honest and tell them that you cannot continue to work this way or something will give.  If they don't care, then show them the same respect.  From there you need to talk with your wife about quitting without another job lined up.  You are not quitting to pursue FIRE, but quitting because you are ready to self destruct.  Tell her that FIRE is a long term goal, but part of the reason it so appealing now is because the work situation you are in now.  As others have pointed out FIRE maybe a "cry for help" currently because of the stress you are under.  Hopefully she understands, but if she doesn't support you be prepared to quit anyway without her support and figure out a way to live on your savings alone for a little while.  I know this option sucks, but hopefully it won't come to this.   

I feel for you, it sounds like a crappy situation, but you have savings and you have options.  There lots of other people in the same situation as you living lives of quiet desperation because they don't have the savings you have.  Good luck!       

[rjg]

If you're in the situation I think you're in, saying you can't stay late is really not an option.

Is this really not an option?  I work in consulting and yes you have to stay late every once in a while to hit a deadline, but when this happens over and over again it is a sign of a poorly planned/executed project plan.  Do you have control over project scope at all or is it dictated to you? 

I don't know how many times I have been on client calls and said that I needed to leave because it was getting late and that I would look into it more in the morning.  Mostly everyone is relieved because they are afraid to speak up and do it themselves.  Outside of the few workaholics on the call that get pissed, f-them, its usually their fault you are behind to begin with.  Having "all hands on deck" to complete an overdue project is really just a sign that the point person has messed up the timeline and is looking for help fast.  Let them deal with their own fall-out.  Make an excuse that you cannot help because you have other projects/clients that take precedence.  Can you tell I'm a bit jaded? :-).   

I would also plan to have a chat with your direct superior about the situation.  Be honest and tell them that you cannot continue to work this way or something will give.  If they don't care, then show them the same respect.  From there you need to talk with your wife about quitting without another job lined up.  You are not quitting to pursue FIRE, but quitting because you are ready to self destruct.  Tell her that FIRE is a long term goal, but part of the reason it so appealing now is because the work situation you are in now.  As others have pointed out FIRE maybe a "cry for help" currently because of the stress you are under.  Hopefully she understands, but if she doesn't support you be prepared to quit anyway without her support and figure out a way to live on your savings alone for a little while.  I know this option sucks, but hopefully it won't come to this.   

I feel for you, it sounds like a crappy situation, but you have savings and you have options.  There lots of other people in the same situation as you living lives of quiet desperation because they don't have the savings you have.  Good luck!       

In theory I have influence over the scope, but only to the extent that I agree with whatever lowball timeline, and high scope the client (and therefure the account/sales people who want the money). I always push back, state my concerns and things move ahead anyway with me in charge of "making it work". My boss really doesn't care- some of his favorites sayings are "shit flows downhill" "you gotta do what you gotta do, and "I don't care what it takes". The best thing I can say about him is that he doesn't micromanage. So as double down suggests, it may be better to just yes sir him and then just work 8 hours a day.

You are right that I am way better off than many people who have crappy jobs. I need to always be thankful for that. My choices could come down to being married, and having a stressful job that I hate or being a single, unemployed dad. And I need to fully embrace the possibility of the latter in order to make progress in changing the situation. Maybe I find something in the middle, but as of now those are the 2 options as I see it.

[begood]

My choices could come down to being married, and having a stressful job that I hate or being a single, unemployed dad. And I need to fully embrace the possibility of the latter in order to make progress in changing the situation. Maybe I find something in the middle, but as of now those are the 2 options as I see it.

rjg, there's a lot of spectrum space between "staying in the job you hate" and "single, unemployed dad". You're taking positive steps by applying for jobs and by distilling what's bothering you about the current job so you have a better idea of what you're looking for in the next one. And feel free to blatantly use your kid as an excuse to work regular hours when you get back.

Everything feels a little desperate now; I get that. Especially with your wife going back to work and you being home alone with the little guy. That's a lot of hours to ruminate on just how awful things could get. It's such a cliche, but maybe work on taking things one day at a time? Even if you want to be home with him, babies - ALL babies - are exhausting.

This is a period of huge transition for you. You seem like a "roll with it" kind of guy, which has its downsides, as we've seen in this thread, but it has upsides too. Do your best to stay optimistic. You're young, wealthy, and have a beautiful healthy baby. I know you want change to happen NOW or maybe even YESTERDAY, but the truth is that change isn't going to come immediately, and you've got to find a way to cope in the meantime.

[rujancified]

By the way, I used to put in overtime and work my ass off to complete impossible deadlines too. But once I had paid my dues and established a reputation, that was that. I stopped spending my life at work, and my career only took off even further from there. You've already paid your dues and established a successful reputation, no one is going to fault you for leaving on time. It's highly unlikely anyone will even notice. And even if they did, f***  'em. You don't need or even want this job!

This! ^^

I used to work insane hours to try and please a whole crowd of people. Even while in the midst of that, I knew that would just created MORE people who needed to be pleased, rather than less. Eventually I just started only doing critical work & I refused to apologize for ignoring the other work. Wish I could say I had some sort of awakening that led me to this, but honestly I just got too busy to do all the work. I sort of backed into the 80/20 rule and ended up with a massive promotion as a result.

I've moved roles since then, but I still apply the same attitude these days. There's work that's useful and benefits the greater good and there's nonsense work. I try to do most of the former and little of the latter.

[zataks]

You are right that I am way better off than many people who have crappy jobs. I need to always be thankful for that. My choices could come down to being married, and having a stressful job that I hate or being a single, unemployed dad. And I need to fully embrace the possibility of the latter in order to make progress in changing the situation. Maybe I find something in the middle, but as of now those are the 2 options as I see it.

Wait, what?

If those are the only two options you see, then you're only allowing yourself one of those two results.  Don't do that to yourself.  Acknowledge that there are many options and it's up to you take make the changes to realize the goals/options you want.  It can be hard to see when you're depressed and stressed but you must know that things will get better and make little efforts every day to do so.  And I mean little!  It's kind of like saving; a little bit here and there every day adds up to financial independence in 20 years.  A little change here and there every day adds up to the exact life you want/need very quickly.  And in this way, your situation is improved literally every day. 

It IS good to be grateful for the job you have and realize that it could be worse but be careful comparing yourself to those who have worse jobs or no jobs as, ultimately, this comparison to others goes the other way: look at all the people with better jobs.  Understand you have a job, be grateful for it, and know that it could be better either through changing the situation at this company or going to another. 

[jsloan]

And feel free to blatantly use your kid as an excuse to work regular hours when you get back.

Totally agree!  This is great option for the guy that schedules a meeting @ 5:30.  "Sorry, can't make it to your totally unnecessary meeting I have to <fill in baby hijinks here>!  Am I right!  Anyway, talk to you tomorrow!"     

[Zelda01]

My choices could come down to being married, and having a stressful job that I hate or being a single, unemployed dad. And I need to fully embrace the possibility of the latter in order to make progress in changing the situation. Maybe I find something in the middle, but as of now those are the 2 options as I see it.

I took a stress reduction class, and found that many people have Negative Automatic Thoughts (NATs) during stress that don't serve a person well, and mine tended to be Perfectionism and All-or-None thinking. 

I don't know if your All-or-None, 2-optioned thinking is a result of the severe work burnout you are feeling...  ...or if it is one of your regular responses under stress.  [you could google "NATs" or "CBT" (cognitive behavioral therapy) to find out more]

I personally think the work burnout is accentuating any tendency you have toward all-or-none thinking.  And this may have contributed to your wife freaking out.

On the one hand, your work situation reminds me of someone's advice to toxic jobs:  "When you are in a burning building, get out."  On the other hand, when you get out it shouldn't be a question of "I either work at that type of job, or I don't work at all."  On the THIRD hand, it might help  you to read the thread about Epic FU money stories, where you can see that by having money stashed away like you do, you have more ability to negotiate/quit/alter a job than the average person:

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/epic-fu-money-stories/

In the stress reduction class I mentioned, the leader said to me: 
"You have more power than you use."

I believe the same is true with you.  You have more power than you use. 

[DoubleDown]

rjg, based on your description of your "shit rolls downhill/make it work/hands off" boss I am extra convinced that the positive, can-do attitude is the way to go (other than finding a more sane job elsewhere, which you're already pursuing). I will respectfully disagree with those who suggest attempting to discuss proper scope assessments with the boss, and why the management estimates are unrealistic because of internets, offshore labor, widget incompatibility, and "mobile digital platforms" (you're welcome).

I've encountered bosses like yours at least 1,000 times. Their eyes will glaze over in about 2 seconds when confronted with the realities of proper project estimating, and they'll be annoyed at the person trying to show them the truth. They don't want to hear that shit. The person that tries to tell them that is not a team player, they are a downer (in the boss's mind). Like you said, the client rules all, that kind of boss could give two f*cks about proper estimating. But the guy who is "part of the team" and is always positive about making it work (even though it won't actually work on time without killing everyone) -- promote that guy, he's like us!!

If it matters, I got promoted to the top ranks in my large organization younger than 99.75% of my colleagues at that rank (median age was around 50-55, I was 36), and it wasn't because I told my "get it done" bosses the realities of why their estimates are impossible, nor was it because I was working until midnight (I wasn't). I'm telling myself the 0.25% (which is probably one person) promoted younger than me must have been sleeping with the Director.

[scrubbyfish]

rjg: I just posted to my Journal my newest "boundary learning curve" and process, plus a success. They are the second and third bold headings at: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/2014-goals-sole-provider-for-self-and-child/msg374731/#msg374731  i.e., Always more learning, but the successes really do come!

I have also been thinking about posting this: I picked up a random novel from the library. I didn't love it -just not really my version of "yum"- but it was strangely reflective of some families here. Story is set in Boston, two super high-income earners, so busy, a piece of life happens, a reassessment begins, the Mustachian questions come up, husband/wife conflict such as is sometimes reflected on this forum, etc. So, not my type of book, but I liked that this issue was explored in this story. (Even the Boston part!) It's called Left Neglected (Genova).

[CommonCents]

rjg: I just posted to my Journal my newest "boundary learning curve" and process, plus a success. They are the second and third bold headings at: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/2014-goals-sole-provider-for-self-and-child/msg374731/#msg374731  i.e., Always more learning, but the successes really do come!

I have also been thinking about posting this: I picked up a random novel from the library. I didn't love it -just not really my version of "yum"- but it was strangely reflective of some families here. Story is set in Boston, two super high-income earners, so busy, a piece of life happens, a reassessment begins, the Mustachian questions come up, husband/wife conflict such as is sometimes reflected on this forum, etc. So, not my type of book, but I liked that this issue was explored in this story. (Even the Boston part!) It's called Left Neglected (Genova).

Heh.  I was curious so I googled it.  Set in "Welmont".  Wellesley+Belmont.

[rjg]

So I read several of the books suggested here- all very helpful. I've been back at work for a week now and despite the break, I'm miserable. Everyday I feel more and more depressed being there. I try to take lot of breaks and never work more than 8 hours, etc. One small "win" was that I was asked to do a 1 day trip this week and said that I couldn't due to family obligations. My only enjoyment comes from being a pain... I basically say no to everything and ask for a ton of clarification.

I've applied to 75 jobs so far and had about 6 interviews. Not sure how much longer I can do this though - it is torturous.

It is so hard to hear my wife talking about how she might quit her job in a month. I mean, it makes sense since the nanny gets paid what she makes but it is upsetting that I am not allowed to even speak about quitting my job. I can't stop fantasizing about "just quitting". But it is hard that no one I know (friends, family, wife) is remotely sympathetic to that idea.

[ch12]

I've been back at work for a week now and despite the break, I'm miserable. Everyday I feel more and more depressed being there.

Not sure how much longer I can do this though - it is torturous.

It is so hard to hear my wife talking about how she might quit her job in a month. I mean, it makes sense since the nanny gets paid what she makes but it is upsetting that I am not allowed to even speak about quitting my job. I can't stop fantasizing about "just quitting". But it is hard that no one I know (friends, family, wife) is remotely sympathetic to that idea.

Like I said in my last post, I'm pro-gender equality. If she is allowed to talk about quitting her job, then you should be. If you aren't, then she's being sexist.

Please "just quit". You've already got interviews lined up. And frankly, a wife who doesn't prioritize the health and wellbeing of her family over the frills is astonishing. If she genuinely loves you, then she should believe in doing what's best for you and the family. If she would like to extraneous luxuries over a happy and healthy family, then perhaps you should rethink your commitment.

[dz1087]

So...anyone had a spouse that was so dead set against being financially independent? Or reacted this strongly to it? Any advice?

Sorry to be blunt, but get rid of the spouse.

Hard truth, but sometimes u gotta take a leap...

[scrubbyfish]

I hope you leave your job.

I hope your wife chooses to support you in that decision.

No one should have to suffer, and no one should have to suffer for money when they've already worked their butts off and accumulated more than they'll ever need.

I can't imagine asking a partner to stay in a situation in which they feel miserable. (I always did the opposite. Ironically, that ended up making them feel able to stay in it and happier!)

But yeah, if you decide to leave your job, please keep that a totally separate matter from leaving your marriage. That's a totally different issue. Who knows? Maybe once you've left your job, and your wife has left hers, and you both stay home enjoying the baby, and taking turns having solo time, you will both feel so refreshed, happy, and reconnected that any other decisions come easily and mutually! Here's hoping.

lhamo recommended to me a book by Martha Beck called Expecting Adam. For me, other parts resonate (child with special needs, etc) but right now I'm thinking about the "Harvard" aspect for you. Beck talks about how she and her hubby were in the ultimate academic life, on track for extreme prosperity, etc...and then essentially walked away. It's exciting to me when people opt to save their own lives this way. If your partner doesn't care enough about your health (especially mental/emotional/psychological), you for sure have to take steps to guard it.

Still pulling for you!

[Janie]

it is upsetting that I am not allowed to even speak about quitting my job.

What you say or don't say is your decision. Sure, speaking up may bring unpleasant consequences but not speaking is a choice. And you're the one making it.

[Goldielocks]

Wow, does your post bring back memories for me.  I managed to stick it out for about 4 years while looking for a job.

Would I do it again?  Yes and no.

1. I am thankful I kept my spouse.  Lots of years and still working on communication now, but so worth it despite the job depression.

2.  I would set a quit by date.  Eg 6 months.  Within 2 months of that date, start looking for temp employment, much lower pay even. Retail work, gas station whatever. Bare bones to tie you over.  Be willing to ask extended family for help at that point if needed.

3. It was hard to get work for me while depressed about current job or thinking I needed to match current pay.  You could take a night course and start a new career path, you know.

4. When you are out of work, if you have a real plan of what you want to do, excited about it, it is easier to get work.  You also have some pressure to make it happen.  When I was laid off it took me 2 months to get two job offers, but 4 years of looking when I was hating my current situation.

5. By all means, get some  money together for this. That is partly what your 6 month goal is for.   Make a special acct and quit as planned when it reaches $x.  Having a shorter well defined goal will make work much easier, and you will look for every way in your life to build the acct quicker.   I hate yo say this, but If your wife is not on board or you are not talking about it well, just start the fund with a pay yourself first diversion to a savings acct. 

Lastly this is about your finding meaningful work, not fire.  Your wife is not really listening right now, so a fire suggestion won't go over well.   Your communication should be about how You simply need a plan and a bit of a break to focus on the next phase of your career, etc.

[Lina]

I think you both have a way to achieve one of your goals. If your wife really wants to live in Europe I would talk to her about setting it as a goal in x months or years. I would go back to your wife and say that you have thought about her goal to live in Europe. Now would be a perfect opportunity before your kid starts school etc. Talk about where she would like to live and what she would like to do. Find out how you can achieve it and what the cost would be of living in some european country, how you would deal with visas etc. Show how you could live a life without sacrifices in country x. Plan together. It also gives your wife an idea of how it would be to live a nice life without both of you working. If you avoid most of the high cost cities as London, Zurich, Stockholm etc you can live a really nice life with 6 000 USD. You could rent out your apartment in NY to cover the cost of it. If you rent out your apartment it is not a big of change immediately like you proposed in the beginning.

If you can manage it financially now I would set it as a goal in say 6 months. It gives you time to adapt, plan and end subscriptions etc. When living the year in Europe you could also take a break from work. When you come you have hopefully adapted to another kind of lifestyle. All the cancellations of subscriptions, services etc allows you probably to skip lot of them. Every time I have lived abroad I have realized how little stuff I need to live a really nice life. When I get back to my stuff I have forgotten that I even own some of the stuff.

[Jennifer in Ottawa]

To be very blunt, I think your wife is being a selfish cow and needs to be quickly disabused of the notion that she married a cash machine.

She casually drops the line that she is thinking of quitting her job in the next month or so when she knows how much you loathe your job?  That's just turning the knife in your back.  That's shit you do to people you don't like.

You need to find your balls soon or relegate yourself to a lifetime of being this woman's doormat.

[makinbutter]

To be very blunt, I think your wife is being a selfish cow and needs to be quickly disabused of the notion that she married a cash machine.

She casually drops the line that she is thinking of quitting her job in the next month or so when she knows how much you loathe your job?  That's just turning the knife in your back.  That's shit you do to people you don't like.

You need to find your balls soon or relegate yourself to a lifetime of being this woman's doormat.

Respectfully, JiO, while I agree with the sentiment here, I don't think the name-calling is needed (read: "selfish cow").  It does sound, though, that she needs to be disabused of the idea that she married a "cash machine" (or as others called it earlier in the thread, a "paycheck with legs" - I lol'ed at those).

As others have said, a lot of this is in your head - she's not holding a gun to your face and preventing you from saying "I want to quit my job" or even holding a knife to your back and forcing you out the door to work in the morning.  She's doing none of those things.  She may be emotionally terrorizing you into not having the cojones to leave work, but ultimately, you're the one choosing the path of less emotional pain by going to work instead of confronting her.  I'm not saying that's a wrong choice, per se, but realize that it IS a choice, and I think you'll already feel a little better about it.

Whether or not you can or should continue to make that choice [again, mollifying the missus by going to a job you detest] is another matter.  Let's talk brass tacks - why in a zillion years would you spend your life with someone who knows that you are genuinely unhappy but is unwilling to discuss steps to help you get to a happier place... and for what? Money?  Status?  That is - pardon my French - batshit crazy. 

You two are a poster child for counseling.  You need marital counseling.  The two of you need to see a counselor.  You two should go talk to a professional.  How many different ways can I write this...?

If - Heaven forbid - she is unwilling to go to a counselor with you...?  WTF?  Boundaries, amigo - maybe one of your boundaries will be "listen, honey, I love you and baby-child more than anything else in this world, but I will not stay at this soul-crushing job WHICH I HATE WITH THE FIERY PASSION OF A THOUSAND SUNS.  You may get angry at that, and you may even divorce me on the spot... that would be your choice, and one that I would be forced to respect, but mine is that I choose not to go to Shit-show Inc. any more, and I would like to work out with you a way that we can make this happen."

I'm no pro on this but seriously boundaries, boundaries, boundaries.  She's all into yours (because you let her in!!!).  Good luck, amigo - I'm pulling for you, too.

[former player]

To be very blunt, I think your wife is being a selfish cow and needs to be quickly disabused of the notion that she married a cash machine.

She casually drops the line that she is thinking of quitting her job in the next month or so when she knows how much you loathe your job?  That's just turning the knife in your back.  That's shit you do to people you don't like.

You and I might think that, but quite possibly it is also the way to divorce, an acrimonious demand for money and limited or no time with the baby.  Instead, OP needs a subtler argument in favour of gender equality and against outdated social norms which have him earning and her sitting at home with the baby.

So a better approach might be "Darling, you know how much I hate my job, you've been telling your friends and family that for months.  It will kill me if I am at work knowing that you are at home with our baby.  Let's both give up our jobs, live off the millions we've already earned ourselves and make our lives somewhere we can spend time with our baby and each other."

[CommonCents]

To be very blunt, I think your wife is being a selfish cow and needs to be quickly disabused of the notion that she married a cash machine.

She casually drops the line that she is thinking of quitting her job in the next month or so when she knows how much you loathe your job?  That's just turning the knife in your back.  That's shit you do to people you don't like.

You and I might think that, but quite possibly it is also the way to divorce, an acrimonious demand for money and limited or no time with the baby.  Instead, OP needs a subtler argument in favour of gender equality and against outdated social norms which have him earning and her sitting at home with the baby.

So a better approach might be "Darling, you know how much I hate my job, you've been telling your friends and family that for months.  It will kill me if I am at work knowing that you are at home with our baby.  Let's both give up our jobs, live off the millions we've already earned ourselves and make our lives somewhere we can spend time with our baby and each other."

Also, courts can attribute the salary a person could make to the person, even if not working.  So if he says this, she divorces him and gets primary physical custody, she could possibly get a court to set child support high enough he'd be forced to keep working.

Thus, I'm going to agree with you that for many reasons, he should go cautiously rather than pick out the biggest grenade in his arsenal and throw it without regard to whether the flyswatter might have been better.  I see a lot of repressed anger in the OP, and I'm worried the dam will suddenly burst one day if he doesn't learn to slowly defuse and talk about what bothers him (regardless of whether it upsets his wife). 

OP, it is reasonable to call out your wife when she talks about quitting her job, and point out how you should improve your communication so you both are free to talk about what matters to both of you. 

[Metta]

PS - this is a post that compiles links that I used to make myself feel better when I HATED my job. I hope there is something helpful in there for you: http://libraryjoy.com/2013/04/21/love-your-job/

Thank you for this!

[rjg]

Thanks- the support, perspectives and suggestions here, though virtual, are very helpful.

To respond to some points raised:
1. Yes, I often think about divorce. The problem is child support. The law in New York is pretty harsh. The amount is calculated according to your gross income. On top of that, if you take a lower paying job, or quit your job, they will impute the income based on what you could be making.  Even in situations of joint custody, the person that earns (or earned) the higher income is considered the non custodial parent and must pay the specified amount by law (it's non negotiable even if the other person is amenable). In my case it would be atkeast 2500. There are other add ons for medical care, education, child care too. So basically there's no getting around me being a "human cash machine" for my wife. And that's not including whatever assets she'd be awarded.

2. I do think that the main priority for me should be getting out of New York, selling our place and therefore "resetting" our expenditures. If I want to stay married for now I will need to play within the bounds of what my wife finds appealing. The best option may actually be grad school in a different location- she is cool with that. Then when I'm done maybe I just really take my time to find "the right thing". That will still take many months to organize.


3. I agree that I need to "grow a pair" when it comes to arguing with my wife. Somehow she has a way of making whatever I'm suggesting seem like the craziest, stupidest, most insensitive thing ever. I tend to feel bad about even bringing up whatever it was for days afterward. She's also great at using phrases and sound bites against me months or years afterwards. I tend to forget the detaiks of the conversation soon afterwards.

I sometimes feel like I need the worlds best attorney to argue with her. When I calm down I start to feel resentful and manipulated again. As I mebtioned, our couples therapist seemed to buy into what she was saying so I'm wary of going down that path again. It doesn't help that she works in social services and can "talk the talk" with therapists. And a cbt therapist (unhelpfulky) told me that I was a wimp. When my wife feels threatened angry she is  very persuasive and very good at casting blame and shame on others.

Even using her desire to quit as a pivot is tough. From a purely rational perspective, after all, it makes sense. She's the one wjth the milk, her salary barely covers the nanny, and even I agree that it seems a bit silly. The "equal rights" argument will fall on deaf ears.

4. I think I need to bolster my real life support network with support groups, supportive friends,  a good therapist and a good family law attorney. You'd think these things would be easy in NYC but I find it very difficult to find times that work and find the right people. When I'm at work my feelings of worthlessness and depression grow and make it harder to take action. My "tunnel vision" seems to get worse. I second guess myself and can't seem to focus on getting things done. Even finding an al anon group is proving difficult.

From an outside perspective I realize that much of what I just wrote must sound like whining and excuses. That may be true but they seem like real obstacles to me at this point. I do know that my current approach isn't working for me. But I also think I need to tread carefully since I have more to lose in a divorce. I'm not ready to just call her bluff (if it is one).

[lifejoy]

PS - this is a post that compiles links that I used to make myself feel better when I HATED my job. I hope there is something helpful in there for you: http://libraryjoy.com/2013/04/21/love-your-job/

Thank you for this!

You are very welcome! Those links helped me a great deal when I needed them :)

[scrubbyfish]

Wow, great post, rjg! That sounded incredibly clear headed, rational, and wise. At every point. It absolutely did NOT sound whiny or like excuses. In some situations, we do have barriers/obstacles, and those are very real. Seeing them as they are is as healthy and necessary as any other step. It's what allows us (the people with the obstacles) to start generating creative solutions, or figuring out who else we need to talk to.

If grad school in another location is an option you're both happy with, I would totally take it!

I'm relieved to hear you've looked into the family law details in your region. It's critical to know what these are (preferably before marriage and then before children, but even before other major moves such as the point you're at).

An additional query I would bring to your region's legal beagles: Would stress documentation from your doctor help resolve the matter of imputed income? i.e., Can they claim the potential of income based on past ability when current ability is impacted by depression, anxiety, stress, or other issues?

It's too true that seeking help/support while we're feeling like crap is very difficult. I quoted a phrase (don't know the source, read it 20 years ago) to the local mental health team last week: "Asking a mental health consumer to use the current mental health system is like asking a quadraplegic to use stairs."

It can take a number of tries to find a therapist or group that feels truly helpful. Do you feel able to call maybe two per week (e.g., one highly rated therapist and one 12 Step contact person) until you find a good fit? Also, does your area have any sort of "RateMD" website for therapists? I find the RateMD website a godsend when I need to find a new doctor or specialist.

I'm not 100% sure that marriage counselling is particularly effective when one person has depression, fear, extreme shyness, or otherwise lacks "voice". I think support for YOU to feel calm, strong, happy within/despite your circumstances -and while interacting with your wife- may be more key.

[Mint Chip]

I used to be a lot like your wife. Born and raised in NYC, l "had" to live at a certain level (in the right neighborhood, of course), wear the best clothes, eat at the best/hottest places, etc., go on fabulous vacations that I could talk about with my "friends," and otherwise maintain a certain image, etc. It was the same for all of my friends, both male and female, but mostly female. All of this status stuff was our identity. Sad, isn't it?  I was such a snob that I looked down upon people who moved to a less desirable zip code, or to Brooklyn, or, god forbid, the suburbs.

Your wife is surrounded and likely encouraged by women who are just like her, which is also working against you.

My break from this cycle came only when I realized that I wanted more out of life than a fabulous wardrobe, huge engagement ring, and the ability to brag about my zip code., and started to think - or maybe just realize - that some of my "friends" we're insane, and that all of us were pretty pathetic. All of my "friends" thought I was insane to leave my "perfect" life, but I did, after an ugly, exhausting breakup, and went home to my mother's house, penniless, and extremely grateful to be able to sleep on a twin bed in my sister's old bedroom.

Not too long after, I met my husband and one of the best decisions we ever made was to leave NYC. I'm not saying that everyone in NYC is like your wife, or that everyone there is destined to become a shallow a-hole, but in my experience,  it seems that the influences there can make what you are looking for very difficult to achieve, and very tough to sell, for so many reasons.

My heart goes out to you, especially because you guys have a child. I'm so sorry that your wife doesn't realize or can't see right now that what you are offering her is truly a gift. I hope that you two can find a way to work this out.

[RetiredAt63]

I just read the whole thing - whew!

Not much to add to all the good advice here.  One communication idea - does your wife pay any attention at all to any pro sports?  Because I see an analogy here - you are making big bucks in a short-term job (career burnout) just like pro athletes make big bucks in a short-term job (injuries, getting too old to play).  Athletes are advised to develop a fall-back plan before they need it - anyone in your kind of job should too.  Would this analogy help your wife understand, at the emotional level, that what you are doing is not sustainable in the long term?  Because right now you are "playing injured".  Your stress levels = serious groin pull.  Make the plans before the blown knee equivalent.

She has her Master's degree, she is not stupid.  But she does seem to have her first reaction be visceral, so maybe aiming communication at her visceral side is the way to start things?  And forget the retirement side of things, go for the financial security and longer-term sustainability aspects.  After all, neither of you will be doing well if you have a full-fledged nervous breakdown.

[okashira]

Thanks- the support, perspectives and suggestions here, though virtual, are very helpful.

To respond to some points raised:
1. Yes, I often think about divorce. The problem is child support. The law in New York is pretty harsh. The amount is calculated according to your gross income. On top of that, if you take a lower paying job, or quit your job, they will impute the income based on what you could be making.  Even in situations of joint custody, the person that earns (or earned) the higher income is considered the non custodial parent and must pay the specified amount by law (it's non negotiable even if the other person is amenable). In my case it would be atkeast 2500. There are other add ons for medical care, education, child care too. So basically there's no getting around me being a "human cash machine" for my wife. And that's not including whatever assets she'd be awarded.

2. I do think that the main priority for me should be getting out of New York, selling our place and therefore "resetting" our expenditures. If I want to stay married for now I will need to play within the bounds of what my wife finds appealing. The best option may actually be grad school in a different location- she is cool with that. Then when I'm done maybe I just really take my time to find "the right thing". That will still take many months to organize.


3. I agree that I need to "grow a pair" when it comes to arguing with my wife. Somehow she has a way of making whatever I'm suggesting seem like the craziest, stupidest, most insensitive thing ever. I tend to feel bad about even bringing up whatever it was for days afterward. She's also great at using phrases and sound bites against me months or years afterwards. I tend to forget the detaiks of the conversation soon afterwards.

I sometimes feel like I need the worlds best attorney to argue with her. When I calm down I start to feel resentful and manipulated again. As I mebtioned, our couples therapist seemed to buy into what she was saying so I'm wary of going down that path again. It doesn't help that she works in social services and can "talk the talk" with therapists. And a cbt therapist (unhelpfulky) told me that I was a wimp. When my wife feels threatened angry she is  very persuasive and very good at casting blame and shame on others.

Even using her desire to quit as a pivot is tough. From a purely rational perspective, after all, it makes sense. She's the one wjth the milk, her salary barely covers the nanny, and even I agree that it seems a bit silly. The "equal rights" argument will fall on deaf ears.

4. I think I need to bolster my real life support network with support groups, supportive friends,  a good therapist and a good family law attorney. You'd think these things would be easy in NYC but I find it very difficult to find times that work and find the right people. When I'm at work my feelings of worthlessness and depression grow and make it harder to take action. My "tunnel vision" seems to get worse. I second guess myself and can't seem to focus on getting things done. Even finding an al anon group is proving difficult.

From an outside perspective I realize that much of what I just wrote must sound like whining and excuses. That may be true but they seem like real obstacles to me at this point. I do know that my current approach isn't working for me. But I also think I need to tread carefully since I have more to lose in a divorce. I'm not ready to just call her bluff (if it is one).

You haven't listened to any of my advice yet, but I am going to throw more ideas out there for you.
1. move to a state with more favorable divorce laws first,
2. get "sick," and quit your job FIRST before even mentioning divorce
3. then you will be in a much better position in terms of alimony/child support, and you can fight for custody of the kiddo.
4. you may find your wife will actually be more reasonable in divorce, and she would not pursue rediculous alimony settlements, etc. Her current behavior does not predict how she would handle it, IMO.
****No guarantees with this one. hah.


You guys are already filthy rich, it makes me sick to think that you'd need continue to work to keep your wife super rich for the rest of your life divorce or not.

[rjg]

Thanks scrubby fish. I agree that the current mental health system is very hard to use when you really need it. I having been down the road several times before it is really difficult to find a good therapist because:
-many good ones are already booked up or only have very odd times available
-it takes a while before you really know if it's clicking.
-some of the best don't take insurance (or don't take your particular insurance) so then you're paying 400/session and aren't even sure if it's worth it
-my desire to "retire early" probably sounds "crazy" to most therapists especially in NYC. Not to mention, there's sort of a weird dynamic where if they helped me actually get to the point where I quit my job and leave NY they lose a patient. I'm not sure how many are that altruistic. I guess I am just very skeptical of most therapists at this point.

Mint chip-

Thanks for sharing your story. The strange thing is that my wife's friends (with 1 exception) aren't the high flying shallow,  "gold digger" types. They are actually all really nice, good people who don't place money or possessions as their top priority. they work in lower paying fields like theater, government and social services. I think my wife's motivation is more anxiety related (scared of "being poor",scared of the unknown, etc).  My wife also has told me about how she dated finance people in the past and made a conscious decision that she didn't respect that type of work and didn't want that lifestyle (one guy had a Ferrari collection in his townhouse apparently). I think if some of her friends actually saw the way she argues with me they'd be horrified.

But to a casual observer, the idea of quitting your job when you have a newborn sounds selfish and irresponsible. So it would be very easy for her to get the idea that "my husband is crazy" reinforced by pretty much anyone. When it came up with the couples therapist he agreed with her and i couldn't really argue against it without breaking out a spreadsheet and divulging our whole financial picture- just didn't seem worth it. Most people aren't comfortable wjth math, so you end up looking like a crazy crackpot and being dismissed or resented

Retireat63-

That's exactly how I think of my job. I've tried explaining that to her and she agrees. But her response  is for me to "find a better job" (in a city she likes, paying no less than I make now).  There's no point in arguing about a hypothetical lower paying but more fulfilling job because I don't even know what that would be at this point. That is why I think living "within our means" while I get myself together and explore other options make sense. To her that just sounds like a rationalization to not work and a bad plan.

[firelight]

One thing I've noticed some of my coworkers do at our super stressful job is to suddenly stop contributing at all or do the bare minimum... After a point, any company will fire you if you did that. Once you are fired, you can take your time to find the right job. Your wife can't blame you for being fired if you don't talk about your performance or lack of it. That might bring a change in her attitude as well about moving out of NY.