Am I being unreasonable?

[szymanski]

Hey MMM community.

First post although I have been lurking for a bit and enjoy the site.

I've seen other posts in this subforum related to relationships & money so I guess this is the place to ask.

My gf and I have been dating about 8 months.  We hit it off early on & have discussed marriage.  We're mid-30s.  Neither of us have been married before.  We get along well despite our different personalities (she's the social one, I'm less social).  Some things I believe have weighed on the me though (maybe more so as we get further into the relationship) & what I am about to list affects many couples - money and our attitudes towards it/personality differences, relationship timelines & job situation.  I'll go into more detail about each but I am wondering if I am being unreasonable to think about all these w/some concern.

Where I am today:
$140-150k in retirement accounts, $6k car loan @ 2.49%, $12k student loan @ 4.20%.  I don't have a lot of liquid money in checking/savings accont as my job is stable $2k cash.  No house, always been a renter.  Paid off a graduate school loan last yr $12k.

Money & attitudes/personalities - I think I'm pretty frugal.  I believe in spending $ on activities I enjoy or value.  Ex - I think going out to out frequently to eat & to bar is expensive & is generally a waste of $.  She likes to go out a lot but is willing to go to places where there's a deal - groupon/etc.  I pay for 80-90% of what we do entertainment wise & spend around $300 a month.  To me, that's a lot.  To her, she has said in the past that she would spend $100 a weekend at bars/eating out.  I'm ok w/spending money on travel and small trips and experiences.

I believe in saving - as much as possible.  She's more of a free spirit w/money although I give her credit for being debt free aside from a house.  She's been driving a beater for a while.  She had a decent savings account balance.  But I've heard her say the phrase "you can't take it with you on more than one occasion."  I feel like she has a "wants it all" attitude as in she wants to go on vacations, live in a nice, big house, etc.  I am more used to picking and choosing & not getting everything I want in effort to save now at my age.

Relationship timelines  I think some of it may be biological (she wants to have kids) but she wants to be engaged soon and wants us to have a house together soon.  Soon as in the next 6 months.  The short timeline for what that would cost & the fact that I'd love to get rid of one more loan + have a lot more saved up in cash all seem daunting to me.  I believe in making good financial decisions.  I feel like there's no hurry.  If this is the road I go, I'd rather not finance rings, weddings, not get in over my head w/a house and not have a kid right away (she knows this and feels the same but again, there's not a lot of time).  On top of those steps and what that would cost, she talks about vacations, concerts, etc.  Again, I feel as though I am expected to pay for most of it for the time being.

Job situation  She hasn't had a job for more than 3 months since 2008.  She has been able to live off savings, unemployment & gov't help (housing wise).  I was ok with this for a while.  I do see her job hunting and applying for jobs.  But by her not having a job, I've had to pay for most everything.  It is starting to annoy me, especially as she suggests taking vacations/trips and going to concerts/eating out/bar outings/etc.  I feel as though I can't do some stuff b/c if I did she'd expect to go too & have it mostly paid for. 

So, repeating the question, should these things weigh on me?  I know nothing is perfect in a relationship and many marry into debt/etc. so maybe it just me but would like your opinions.  There's a lot more to it detail wise but I have to get out and enjoy the weather.



 

[pbkmaine]

You already know the answer to this, right?

Who you marry is the most important financial decision you will ever make. The right choice gets you financial independence early and a happy life. The wrong one leads to debt and misery.

From what you have written, she wants a "normal life".  That usually means a certain type of house in the "right" neighborhood, a "good" car, and enough other stuff so that she can hold her head up when she's with her friends.  There's nothing wrong with that, if you don't mind years of crushing debt and lying awake at night figuring out how you are going to pay for all of it. 

By virtue of being on this forum, you have chosen a different life for yourself.  So, two different worlds. Can you live happy in hers? Can she live happy in yours? Or does it make more sense to find someone who wants the same things you do?

[A_Rock]

Does she seem appreciative when you pay for everything or is it more what she expects you to do?  If I was unemployed and my boyfriend was paying for everything, I would be super appreciative and would make sure he always knew it.

Also if I was unemployed, I would not be talking about going vacation.  In my world, unemployed people don't get to go vacation.  That may seem harsh but that's the way I see it.

[Jill the Pill]

This is a little advice I heard a long time ago:  marriages are really not 50/50.  Maybe they ought to average out to 50/50 over all the years and all the contexts (money, effort, housework, childcare, patience, etc.), but in any given year, some aspects might be 100/0, depending on what else is going on -- like job loss or illness.  Life-long partners have to be able to give more than is fair sometimes, and to take help graciously and gratefully when they need it, without tallying up the balance.

If you are already starting to feel resentment over spending "your" money on the two of you, if you are already wanting to do things alone and worrying that she will "expect" to come along, then you don't really seem to have a marriage-like relationship in development.  Those resentments and worries will never get less; they only increase over time, especially when you have kids. 

[Dynasty]

Hey MMM community.

She had a decent savings account balance.  But I've heard her say the phrase "you can't take it with you on more than one occasion."  I feel like she has a "wants it all" attitude as in she wants to go on vacations, live in a nice, big house, etc.

Relationship timelines... but she wants to be engaged soon and wants us to have a house together soon.  Soon as in the next 6 months...,

I feel as though I am expected to pay for most...

Job situation  She hasn't had a job for more than 3 months since 2008...by her not having a job, I've had to pay for most everything... I feel as though I can't do some stuff b/c if I did she'd expect to go too & have it mostly paid for. 

Does this girls first name begin with a J and her last name begins with an R? Seriously, this sounds a lot like a girl I dated several years ago. In her case, during the eight months we dated, she changed jobs three times, and moved twice. Fully expecting me to help her move. The first time I didn't know any better. The second time I was stupid.

She was pressuring us to move in to a new apartment after three months of dating. I resisted. She liked for me to spend 100 dollars on dinners. The first couple times I didn't know any better. The third and final time I was stupid.

She also wanted me to buy a BMW... because I deserved it...

What I noticed was, if she didn't get her way she turned really mean. I fully believe she was a cluster B personality type. I suggest you check out this website: http://shrink4men.wordpress.com/2009/01/21/relationships-with-borderline-narcissistic-personality-women/

And see how many of these traits she has.

Based on the little you've written, and being where I've been before, I'd run like the wind from this woman.

She does not sound stable, but she does sound like she is looking for someone to "save" her.

To directly answer you question, "should these things weigh on me?"  YES. They should weigh on you so heavily that you have 110% safe sex with her. Actually stop having sex with her until her next period, and then get out of dodge being 100% confident that she isn't going to become, "oops, pregnant!" looks like you're going to be my Knight in Shining Armor after all!

[Joel]

I would be real skeptical about going all-in on someone who doesn't have a job.

[mc6]

I would be real skeptical about going all-in on someone who doesn't have a job.

Yeah, amen to what Joel said.  And no, you are NOT being unreasonable here.  Good luck. 

[Nords]

Am I being unreasonable?

I think your guy survival instincts are screaming "Ruuuuunnnnn!"

The chronic unemployment is one danger signal, as well as the entertainment entitlement.

The real clincher would be hearing her describe what sort of wedding she'd like to have.  But of course you can't bring that conversation up with her yourself, although maybe you'd be lucky enough to overhear that discussion among her friends at a dinner or a party.  My cynical perspective is that she'd want a big wedding and a big honeymoon, followed by a big house and a family.  A more frugal life partner would probably prefer to save on the wedding/honeymoon in favor of a bigger down payment and more babysitters...

You seem to be her solution to many of her lifestyle problems.  Is she reciprocating by solving any of your lifestyle problems, or is she potentially creating new ones?

[Adventine]

She hasn't had a steady job since 2008. You can blame the economy all you want, but that doesn't change the reality of the situation: she hasn't had steady work for four going on five years.

She expects you to pay for expensive stuff she thinks she deserves.

She wants to get married and have kids in the next six months.

Clearly, she is imagining a family life with a husband as the main breadwinner who will indulge her expensive ("expensive" to you, probably "just right" to her) tastes. Are you ready to become that guy? If not, run far, far away.

[limeandpepper]

Hi szymanski, while my situation is different, I can relate to dating someone who doesn't have a steady job. My boyfriend of a few years is a freelancer and it can be feast or famine in terms of work and income. In recent times it has been more like famine but it's gradually getting better again.

A summary of how this affects our (financial) relationship. Happily, he doesn't have debt. Also happily, he has savings (this fluctuates according to the feast and famine thing) and it has always been enough so that he doesn't require external financial assistance. We pay our own way when we go out. Sometimes during his "famine" times, I might treat him to something, but that's completely up to me. Our finances are separate and we don't plan on combining them anytime soon. We're also not planning on getting married yet, but we're definitely in this for the long haul, it's just that it doesn't seem that important to us at this stage and we're committed enough without it. He likes the life of a freelancer, and it worries me when he's not getting much work, but he reassures me that he will always be responsible for himself.

So basically, there may be some concerns, but he has good character and I'm reasonably comfortable with our situation and it works for us. However, it seems like yours is way trickier. I don't think you're being unreasonable. If she wants something, she should be prepared to pay for it herself. You should stop paying for her unless it's something you really want to do with her accompaniment, that she's not so keen on. You say you "feel expected to pay" for some of the things she wants. Don't. It shouldn't be an expectation. And be clear to her about that. If she wants a wedding and a house she should chip in. Ditto for holidays and other fun stuff.

Are you okay with potentially having to pay for her for the rest of your life? Or is she willing to shift her attitude/expectations and put her money where her mouth is?

Stand your ground now and if she doesn't like it, too bad. It's better for the both of you to find out sooner rather than later.

[icefr]

Welcome to the forums!

My gf and I have been dating about 8 months.  We hit it off early on & have discussed marriage.  We're mid-30s.  Neither of us have been married before.  We get along well despite our different personalities (she's the social one, I'm less social).  Some things I believe have weighed on the me though (maybe more so as we get further into the relationship) & what I am about to list affects many couples - money and our attitudes towards it/personality differences, relationship timelines & job situation.  I'll go into more detail about each but I am wondering if I am being unreasonable to think about all these w/some concern.

I ended an 8ish month relationship about a month ago. He was a great guy, had a great stable job, and plenty of savings. But we just didn't fit together. We had different money and life priorities, when things were stressful for either of us, we fell apart, and we wanted different relationship roles.

Where I am today:
$140-150k in retirement accounts, $6k car loan @ 2.49%, $12k student loan @ 4.20%.  I don't have a lot of liquid money in checking/savings accont as my job is stable $2k cash.  No house, always been a renter.  Paid off a graduate school loan last yr $12k.

Not sure what your income is, but it sounds like from below, you should have both of these two debts gone by the end of the year, ish? It doesn't like look like you're set up to buy a house or pay for much of a wedding in the near future since you have so little in cash. Even in Texas, where you can get houses for < $200k, that would be a $40k down payment.

Money & attitudes/personalities

You could both believe in saving as much as possible, but you have different spending priorities. My ex and I had different spending personalities. I wouldn't notice the little things stores try to get you to buy near the checkout or deviate from the list when hungry. I don't think he was unfrugal - we just had different priorities.

Relationship timelines

Okay, so her timeline is 6 months. What is your timeline? You've been with this woman for about 8 months now and you seem to have fairly accurate impressions of some things about her.
1) Do you want to spend the next 6 months of your life with her?
2) Do you want to spend the next year of your life with her?
3) Do you want to spend the rest of your life with her?
4) Do you want to have children with her?
5) Ignoring her, do you want to buy a house?
6) Ignoring her, do you want children?

Rings don't have to be expensive. Weddings don't have to be expensive. A Practical Wedding is a GREAT resource for this.

Sounds like she's buying into the American dream on the house thing. It's really not necessary to buy a house before having a kid. Babies are pretty tiny.

A relationship takes two people. You can't get married without both of you going along with it. Have you talked about the fact that you don't want to get married in the next six months.

Job situation  She hasn't had a job for more than 3 months since 2008.

Not having a job isn't a problem if she's FI, but it doesn't sound like she is, unless she's hiding a lot of money from you. You paying for most everything isn't cool. Getting married wouldn't change that pattern, only cement it. It sounds like you're starting to resent her. My ex's solution to me not wanting to do something "expensive" was that he would just pay for it, but it wasn't because of money that I didn't want to do it...

Why can't she hold down a job?

So, repeating the question, should these things weigh on me?  I know nothing is perfect in a relationship and many marry into debt/etc. so maybe it just me but would like your opinions.  There's a lot more to it detail wise but I have to get out and enjoy the weather.

To me, every person who has debt has a different story. There are some debt stories that I would consider marrying and others that I wouldn't. For example, I saw a thread on Bogleheads today about a pair of lawyers who each paid off ~$50k in debt in about 7 months. That is a debt story I would marry - someone who has a *plan* for their debt. I wouldn't marry someone with high-interest debt they're in no hurry to pay off. To me, monthly financial decisions, how someone spends their money, whether someone saves, etc. is more important than how much money they have. It sounds like you two don't agree on how to spend *your* money though.

What people told me is that yes, not everything in a relationship is perfect, but with different spending styles, an inability to communicate about the hard things, and a general zapping of energy by being in the relationship, it wasn't the right relationship for me.

Good luck!

[JamesAt15]

szymanski, have you had any discussion with her about early retirement? I don't know if you have any specific plans for ER. If you do, have you discussed them with her?

If not, might she think that your frugality is a relatively short-term thing to get your remaining debts paid off, and when out of debt you would "improve" (inflate) your lifestyle to match normal standards?

If you have a talk with her about the possibility of ER, it will probably not go too well if she is consciously or subconsciously expecting you to work until you are 65 to pay for all the things she expects as normal and reasonable for herself, the kids, and you. There's no upside and all downside (for her) to your retiring early, if that is her expectation.

Better to have that talk early, see what she is thinking, and even if she's not on board with the idea now, see if the idea will grow on her. If not, better to know now.

[totoro]

Wait two years.  It takes two years before you really know someone.

From what you have described this does not seem like like all signs pointing go.  They are pointing to slow down and get off the six month plan. 

You should pay attention to what Dynasty has to say.  This may not be your circumstances, but I have seen a number of Cluster B personalities in my work and in relationship you will suffer... a lot.  Research this and make sure you are not here - they can be very very charming people at first and treat you well to begin with.   I think these people are where the saying "nice guys finish last" comes from.

[happy]

If she is in her mid thirties, and wants kids, then the biological clock is not just ticking but alarming as well.  I agree with the other posters: I see big danger signs.  Also if she is not the one, then you owe it to her to get out sooner rather than later - don't waste her reproductive time (if she wants kids).

[ace1224]

run run run the other way!  she sounds like a hot mess.  she might be a great person and you might get along with her really well but it sounds scary.

[galaxie]

Your post sounds like you have serious doubts.  You're describing the way she acts in pretty negative terms - I didn't hear a lot of positives in there.
I think you should bring your concerns up with her, not with us.  You mention how she wants a house and kids, but what do you want?

[James]

Be yourself around her.  Tell her you choose not to spend money on fancy dinners, nice cars, expensive ring/wedding, big house, etc. Tell her what kind of life you are planning to live, starting now and all the way through. Let her know you are willing to adjust your plans as part of a relationship, but not live a "normal" life. Stop being the bank and start expecting her to participate fully in the financial aspects of life. If it's not "necessary", then you don't pay for it. Have the "children" conversation and be honest, for her sake as well as your own.

After that discussion and those changes I bet the outcome will become clear.  If not then you have some more thinking to do, but right now you have actions you can take without having to decide where it will go.

[AJ]

My gf and I have been dating about 8 months.  We hit it off early on & have discussed marriage.  We're mid-30s...but she wants to be engaged soon and wants us to have a house together soon.  Soon as in the next 6 months. 

Under "normal" circumstances, I would say that is a reasonable timeline. Mid-30s and dating for 8 months, yeah it is time to get serious or move on and let her start over with someone else. Whatever you decide, don't waste her time right now - her bio-clock has serious limits. You say "there's no hurry" but that is 100% false if she wants kids. I see that attitude in all of my mid-30s single male friends - they don't understand why the women they meet are in such a hurry to get serious. It is a really naive attitude.

That being said, it sounds like you need to have a difficult honest conversation with her. I personally would never be ok letting a dude pay for all my stuff like that - but she clearly is. That says to me this set up is what she expects for the future - that she will stay home with the kids and you will work and bring in the money. That is great set up if that is also what you want. If that is not what you want, if you want to be a two-income household, be clear about that now and make gainful employment a condition of engagement. Sounds harsh, but you need to be on the same page as far as what you both expect in a life-partner relationship.

Money & attitudes/personalities - I think I'm pretty frugal.  I believe in spending $ on activities I enjoy or value.  Ex - I think going out to out frequently to eat & to bar is expensive & is generally a waste of $.  She likes to go out a lot but is willing to go to places where there's a deal - groupon/etc.  I pay for 80-90% of what we do entertainment wise & spend around $300 a month.  To me, that's a lot.  To her, she has said in the past that she would spend $100 a weekend at bars/eating out.  I'm ok w/spending money on travel and small trips and experiences.

I could be reading it wrong, but it sounds like you're making a value judgement that trips and experiences are more "worthy" than eating out & bars. It may be your preference, but it isn't inherently any less wasteful to spend money on trips than at restaurants - it is just a matter of what a person enjoys.

[chicagomeg]

I was giving her the benefit of the doubt that she was more or less just an "average" American, for better or for worse, until I got to the part about her being unemployed for so long, yet expecting you to pay for everything. I think, as others have said, you need to at the least have a long conversation with her about your differing expectations for your lives. I'm not sure you can reconcile your two very different pictures. But certainly if you can't have that conversation, you're not ready to be married.

[Dynasty]

You should pay attention to what Dynasty has to say.  This may not be your circumstances, but I have seen a number of Cluster B personalities in my work and in relationship you will suffer... a lot.  Research this and make sure you are not here - they can be very very charming people at first and treat you well to begin with.

Very very charming at first. And in the long run very damaging to your emotional and physical health, and especially your finances if you allow it.

Luckily for me, other than a few expensive dinners, my finances did not suffer. But there was something very toxic about her.

I'm not going to go into all the details, but what my girl was trying to do by attempting to get us to shack up together at the three month point, was position herself in a situation, where she could go down to part time work, and have me provide financial stability to her life. And when she caught on that I wasn't going to indulge her "agenda" she changed. That's when the toxicity started.

Is there any equity in her house? Is it big enough for a family? Is her plan to marry you, sell her house, and buy a bigger fancier house somewhere together? But with the mortgage payments, and diaper service provided by you?

What is her past job experience? How did she buy the house? Was it with inheritance money? Has she been married before maybe and perhaps took husband # 1 to the cleaners? And that's what she has been living on for the past four or five years?   

You mentioned in your first post: gov't help (housing wise).  What is this?  Does the government now make peoples mortgage payments who are unemployed?

What I am really sensing here (among many red flags) is her savings are going to be gone in less than a year. And you are on the menu for financial support.

Whether or not she really wants a child, only she knows. But my guess is she is more or less looking for an anchor baby to cement that financial support from the unlucky bastard that is you for the next 18 years.

I'm going to repeat it again. Do not have unprotected sex with this woman. And since you already probably are, its going to get messy when you pull out a condom the next time you two get freaky.  But not nearly as messy as the alternative.

Run. Run. Run away from this situation.

[badassprof]

I think James makes a great suggestion: stop buying the dinners, etc. which, unwittingly, might be setting up an expectation that the spending will continue. Let her know  your values and goals and then let the chips fall where they may. It may be that she is onboard with you but needs some coaching and support. It may be that she bristles at the idea of badassity. Either way, you'll gain helpful information. 

If it turns out that you're not on the same page money-wise and she is unwilling to change, do consider walking away. I know it isn't easy when there are aspects of another that one likes. However, as someone who was in a relationship with someone who was very financially irresponsible, it can be expensive--and we weren't even married. Now, I'm with someone with whom I'm on the same page in this area of our lives; it makes all the difference.  Good luck!

[Peter]

I think you know what to do. Time to man up (heh) and ditch her.

This jobless, quasi-homeless girl has no career prospects, looks fading (mid 30s) and has reached the last few seconds on the clock for finding her baby-daddy. If you go all-in, be prepared for 20+ years of all your financial plans gone out the window.

Realize that at 8 months in you're in the danger zone of "long enough to think about the future together" but still "excited about this new relationship and being in love/lust"

A terrible zone to be in for making any life-long decisions...

[Paul der Krake]

We had a great thread about personal differences in relationships on this forum a few months back. The original situation was different with genders reversed and a younger couple, but it's still a great read.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/financial-differences-in-a-relationship-when-are-they-too-much/

You've done a great job convincing posters in this thread that she's a terrible "investment", and we've heard very little on what she's good at. Relationships are rarely black and white, it's a spectrum. What do you like in her? That being said, you have every reason to tread with caution since she needs to "act" quickly in order to achieve her goals.

Best of luck to you.

[szymanski]

Am I being unreasonable?

I think your guy survival instincts are screaming "Ruuuuunnnnn!"

The chronic unemployment is one danger signal, as well as the entertainment entitlement.

The real clincher would be hearing her describe what sort of wedding she'd like to have.  But of course you can't bring that conversation up with her yourself, although maybe you'd be lucky enough to overhear that discussion among her friends at a dinner or a party.  My cynical perspective is that she'd want a big wedding and a big honeymoon, followed by a big house and a family.  A more frugal life partner would probably prefer to save on the wedding/honeymoon in favor of a bigger down payment and more babysitters...

You seem to be her solution to many of her lifestyle problems.  Is she reciprocating by solving any of your lifestyle problems, or is she potentially creating new ones?

Thanks to everyone.  I'll try to answer a few posts under this one.

Does she seem appreciative that I pay for so much?  She does thank me but not always.  She seems to be appreciative after we do something nice but not so much when it comes to smaller gestures.  Her memory doesn't last long either.

In re: to resentment...I think I do understand that things will happen in marriages and you have to be willing to pull more than your weight.  I think my resentment stems from her not helping me much w/all the time she has.  I cook 99% of the meals at home, have to clean dishes, have to come up with things to do, figure out what to eat, etc.  She makes comments when I don't fix something for her.  She spends the day on the computer (some of it applying for jobs) + watching tv.  She waits to run errands when I am available to go too.  I don't feel like I get much help.

Nords - you are pretty spot on.  Nice wedding - destination style likely.  She has expensive travel taste.

[.22guy]

You need to walk away from this.  If you don't, you will regret it. 

Sorry to be blunt, but you will kick yourself in the ass later if you don't take that advice.

[AJ]

I cook 99% of the meals at home, have to clean dishes, have to come up with things to do, figure out what to eat, etc.  She makes comments when I don't fix something for her.  She spends the day on the computer (some of it applying for jobs) + watching tv.  She waits to run errands when I am available to go too.  I don't feel like I get much help.

I will further pile on the need to discuss these feelings with her. There was a time in my marriage when I felt something similar - like I was doing a lot more work and not getting a ton of help. When we discussed it, he felt the same way. It was that he was taking care of things I didn't realize or think about, and I was doing things he didn't realize or think about.

Can you not talk to her about your feelings? I'm willing to venture that being able to communicate effectively and calmly is even more important to the health of a relationship than being of like mind in financial matters. Have you told her it bothers you that you have to pay for everything and cook the meals? If not, why not?

[LowER]

Run Forrest! Run!!!!!

If you think she's not fair now, wait until you're being cross examined by her a$$hole divorce attorney about why you haven't kept her standard of living as high after the separation!  Doesn't she deserve to have you subsidize vacations with her unemployed boyfriend?  Doesn't she deserve to have that same standard of living that you established during the marriage, for the rest of her life?  Think this, and much worse, doesn't happen, think again....  Especially with her lack of much employment, you become more vulnerable to out of proportion payments.

Been there.

Run Forrest!! Run!!!!  She could be the reason you work an extra decade or two before FI. 

[Another Reader]

What you state sounds like a lot of rationalization to me.

What I would do in your shoes is to put some distance in the relationship.  You don't say you are living together, so I will assume you are not.  I would tell her you are not sure this relationship will lead to a successful marriage and explain why.  Then I would back off this relationship and start looking at what I really want in a marriage partner.  If over the next few months, she comes around and the relationship turns out to be what you want, great.  Otherwise, you can look for someone else with the knowledge of what you really want.

[limeandpepper]

This is sounding worse and worse. Lack of financial contribution, and hopeless with domestic tasks and other errands? I'm sure there is a reason you're still sticking around, so what is it? Give us some positives. But yeah, if it's really just all the rose-colored stuff that you can get with any new-ish relationship (fun and lust and excitement) - that's not going to hold up to all those significant negatives in the long run. Tread carefully.

[Nords]

I cook 99% of the meals at home, have to clean dishes, have to come up with things to do, figure out what to eat, etc.  She makes comments when I don't fix something for her.  She spends the day on the computer (some of it applying for jobs) + watching tv.  She waits to run errands when I am available to go too.  I don't feel like I get much help.

You just might be getting played for a sucker. 

I don't think any amount of stimulating... conversation can make up for that exploitative behavior.

Sounds like you should be setting up to have "the talk".

[jrs]

Active things you can do while trying to make up your mind:

1) start babysitting as a couple.  Pay attention to her attitude around children.  Is she compasionate?  Patient?  Hostile(hope not)?  Try to do it regularly enough that the novelty wears off before you make any judgments.  (oh, also does she get along with her side of the family?  siblings, mom&dad)

2) Pre-Marital workshop as a couple.  Let a neutral third party prompts serious conversations about what each of you expect after marriage.

3) Crash a divorce support group alone.  Whether it's true or not, say you're facing issues in your relationship and you're considering a separation.  Keep it short, you're not there to talk, you're there to listen to others.  As they share their situations and perspectives, try to imagine what you would do in their specific situation.  It will challenge you as a person.

[Nords]

(oh, also does she get along with her side of the family?  siblings, mom&dad)

If I'd applied this test to my fiancée (now my spouse of 26+ years) then I would've run away screaming.  In fact when my spouse and I were dating in college she spent most of her time avoiding her parents, and now I completely understand why.

We're the founding members of the "Association Of Parents Doing A Better Job Than Their Own Parents".

[Dynasty]

Generally, there are three things a man looks for in woman.

Assuming he is attracted to her, here they are in no particular order.

1) She cooks
2) She cleans
3) She has sex (with him)

So right now we know she doesn't cook or clean. Or WORK.

Obviously, she must be doing number three. I guarantee you this: As soon as she has a baby, number three will stop.

A long time ago, my friends loser sister, who was a single mother on welfare, hooked up with a sailor. She got pregnant, they got married, and sex 100% stopped. In fact, their baby daughter slept in the parents bed at least until she was eight or nine years old. Can't have sex with your husband if your kid is sleeping with you all the time.

She did not work when they met, hence why she was on welfare. And she has not worked a day since the met.  But she did put on about 100 pounds.

The few times I've been over at their house, she would belittle him and make fun of him in front of everyone. The guy looked completely beat down and miserable. Actually, he is a really nice guy who made a terrible mistake with this woman.

Dude, this could be your life. Or your life could be a slight variation of this story.

The only thing you need to talk to her about is how you are moving on. Forget the babysitting, and pre marital counseling crap. The only thing you need to be concerned with is your exit strategy.

Another Reader posted this: "Then I would back off this relationship and start looking at what I really want in a marriage partner.  If over the next few months, she comes around and the relationship turns out to be what you want, great.  Otherwise, you can look for someone else with the knowledge of what you really want."

The problem with this approach is there is a high probability it will generate short term positive returns, which will lull the OP into a false state of security. He'll then let his guard down, and the old behaviors the girlfriend has been suppressing will return.  The other problem is no one knows how long she will be able to maintain this act. It could be three weeks, or it could be 8 months.

Six months from now, the OP and the soon to be Mrs. could be walking down the aisle, and two weeks after the honeymoon to the Italian countryside Mrs. Syzmanski is going to return to her current behavior. Then the OP is going to be really stuck since he signed a business agreement with her.

Get the F away from this woman.

[mm1970]

I would be real skeptical about going all-in on someone who doesn't have a job.

Yeah, I worked with a guy once whose girlfriend didn't have a job.  He bought a house.  Put her on it.  Refinanced, but he had to take her off it because she had no income.  Put her back on it after the refi.

She dumped him, and took half the house.

[Paul der Krake]

I would be real skeptical about going all-in on someone who doesn't have a job.

Yeah, I worked with a guy once whose girlfriend didn't have a job.  He bought a house.  Put her on it.  Refinanced, but he had to take her off it because she had no income.  Put her back on it after the refi.

She dumped him, and took half the house.

Who on earth puts an unemployed non-spouse on a title, TWICE?

This thread has made me sad.

[Sparky]

Sounds like a relationship that is on a fast train to hell. I had an ex just like this... As soon as I mentioned I don't think this relationship would work she tried to screw me over in every possible way known to mankind (claiming pregnancy, 'knowing things about me', killing herself etc).... Ending up getting a restraining order against her.

If you want kids, find yourself a somewhat younger spouse when you are ready to make babies.

[Dr.Vibrissae]

Generally, there are three things a man looks for in woman.

Assuming he is attracted to her, here they are in no particular order.

1) She cooks
2) She cleans
3) She has sex (with him)

Thank God the Mr. didn't hold me accountable for number 1 (in fact it his cooking is one of the things i was looking for in a man) or we wouldn't have gotten very far at all :)

As for the OPs problem, I was willing to give the benefit of the doubt until I got to the part where she hadn't held a job for more than 3 months in 5 years.  There's a reason many managers recommend a 3 month trial period with new hires, and unless there are some major medical issues making it difficult to hold a position due to constant hospitalization etc. (which you did not mention) this is a HUGE red flag for me.

[Dynasty]

Sounds like a relationship that is on a fast train to hell. I had an ex just like this... As soon as I mentioned I don't think this relationship would work she tried to screw me over in every possible way known to mankind (claiming pregnancy, 'knowing things about me', killing herself etc).... Ending up getting a restraining order against her.

Been there. Hung out with a girl for about a week and half. The day after we met she told me she had a secret to tell me. The secret was, she wanted to move in with me, marry me, and have my children. I thought she was joking. Five days in she started telling me she loved me, in 20 or 30 minute intervals. Six days in, she's wanting my baby really bad. 10 days in she is scaring the life out of me. Talking about chopping me up, and putting me in a frying pan if she ever found out I was with another woman. Threatening she'd sleep with the married guy across the street if I were to cheat on her.

Six weeks later and a thousand bizarre text messages from her ranging from hating me one minute, to asking me over for dinner ten minutes later... calling me a sinner in God's eyes, calling me an adulterer, asking me over for dinner again... All with zero phone calls or text messages from me... she was coming over to my house when I was at work, and leaving weird presents in my mailbox. Writing weird messages to me on my sidewalk and driveway with chalk.

Ended up having to get a protection order against her.  While researching "crazy girlfriend stories" on Google, is how I learned about the cluster B personality types.

[szymanski]

You should pay attention to what Dynasty has to say.  This may not be your circumstances, but I have seen a number of Cluster B personalities in my work and in relationship you will suffer... a lot.  Research this and make sure you are not here - they can be very very charming people at first and treat you well to begin with.

Very very charming at first. And in the long run very damaging to your emotional and physical health, and especially your finances if you allow it.

Luckily for me, other than a few expensive dinners, my finances did not suffer. But there was something very toxic about her.

I'm not going to go into all the details, but what my girl was trying to do by attempting to get us to shack up together at the three month point, was position herself in a situation, where she could go down to part time work, and have me provide financial stability to her life. And when she caught on that I wasn't going to indulge her "agenda" she changed. That's when the toxicity started.

Is there any equity in her house? Is it big enough for a family? Is her plan to marry you, sell her house, and buy a bigger fancier house somewhere together? But with the mortgage payments, and diaper service provided by you?

What is her past job experience? How did she buy the house? Was it with inheritance money? Has she been married before maybe and perhaps took husband # 1 to the cleaners? And that's what she has been living on for the past four or five years?   

You mentioned in your first post: gov't help (housing wise).  What is this?  Does the government now make peoples mortgage payments who are unemployed?

What I am really sensing here (among many red flags) is her savings are going to be gone in less than a year. And you are on the menu for financial support.

Whether or not she really wants a child, only she knows. But my guess is she is more or less looking for an anchor baby to cement that financial support from the unlucky bastard that is you for the next 18 years.

I'm going to repeat it again. Do not have unprotected sex with this woman. And since you already probably are, its going to get messy when you pull out a condom the next time you two get freaky.  But not nearly as messy as the alternative.

Run. Run. Run away from this situation.

Hi D.  A few answers.

The housing help is some gov program for the unemployed that helps w/payments & keeps them in a house.  Basically, she shifted her savings to an account w/parents, qualified for the assistance & has been getting her mortgage paid for what will be a yr.  If she sells the home, she would have to pay a chunk of it back.  In Aug, she will take over payments again & I believe this will start to drain the savings unless she is able to line up some employment.  I think it's also contributing to some of the urgency for me to make another step fwd - live together.

In terms of equity, she probably has some but I think she would give back a lot of it after realtor fees, money needed to make improvements to sell the home + the gov program kicker. 

[Jill the Pill]

Generally, there are three things a man looks for in woman.

How misogynist cynical!  Perhaps she is kind, intelligent, and fun to be with.  Maybe szymanski really loves her, and we are breaking his heart in reducing a complex person to her functionality, as if she were an appliance. 

[boy_bye]

Generally, there are three things a man looks for in woman.

How misogynist cynical!  Perhaps she is kind, intelligent, and fun to be with.  Maybe szymanski really loves her, and we are breaking his heart in reducing a complex person to her functionality, as if she were an appliance.

i agree with you, there's a lot of women are like this / men are like that in this thread, and stuff like that makes me grumpy.

however, it does sound like this isn't a particularly good match. my experience has shown me that "loving" someone isn't enough when the "functionality" part of the relationship working. both parts have to be there.

generally, if a relationship feels fraught and difficult more than, say, 10-20% of the time, it's not a good relationship.

[Jane]

Generally, there are three things a man looks for in woman.

Assuming he is attracted to her, here they are in no particular order.

1) She cooks
2) She cleans
3) She has sex (with him)

I'm not on board with OP's relationship, and from what he's said it sounds like he needs to get out, but your comment is extremely offensive and absurd.

[chicagomeg]

Generally, there are three things a man looks for in woman.

Assuming he is attracted to her, here they are in no particular order.

1) She cooks
2) She cleans
3) She has sex (with him)

I'm not on board with OP's relationship, and from what he's said it sounds like he needs to get out, but your comment is extremely offensive and absurd.

Seconded. It's flat out disgusting.

[Fletch]

It's offensive because Dynasty only applied it to women, but lets be honest, my list of qualities to look for in a man includes but is not limited to:
1)he cooks
2)he cleans
3)he has sex (with me)

I don't see anything wrong with members of both sexes looking for a partner that is capable of taking care of themselves, among a whole other list of important values and qualities that should match up.

If the comment was intended to be

1) She cooks (for him, at all times so he never has to)
2) She cleans (all of the things, his and hers, so he doesn't have to)
3) She has sex (with him, only for his enjoyment and at all times he requests it. no icky cuddling or talking after)

Then sure, I'll grab my pitchfork and torch because obviously, misogyny/stereotypes galore. But having a two contributing members in partnership is a pretty important, and who contributes what, what that contribution is valued at, and when they contribute it is something the people actually in the partnership should figure out. As for the OP, it isn't clear what his girlfriends contribution to the partnership is, but it is pretty clear what she expects his contributions to be [hint: the expected contributions rhyme with "demon" and "honey", respectively].

[Dynasty]

What is disgusting about it?

What is disgusting about wanting to be in a relationship with someone who pulls their own weight?

1) She cooks: A lot of people don't like to cook, but some do.
2) She cleans: Most people hate cleaning, but some do.
3) She has sex (with him): Most people like to have sex, but some don't.

Why would any man want to be involved in a relationship with a woman who sits around all day watching TV and playing on the computer. Just to get home from work, and be greeted with and house that is a mess, and if he's lucky, kraft macaroni and cheese for dinner?

When I first posted this list, I prefaced it with "assuming he is attracted to her". I'll add to that, assuming he is attracted to her, she is pleasant to be around, and she has her life in order. 

And of course there are a lot of guys out there who just want to watch sports on TV all evening and drink beer too. I'd create a list like that of things to avoid in a male mate for women.

[chicagomeg]

It's disgusting that you would reduce a relationship down to something so pathetic. My relationship with my significant other is based on NONE of those factors. There is a huge difference between saying that she needs to pull her own weight and that the relationship should be an equal partnership, which is what nearly everyone in this thread has said, and you saying that "there are three things a man looks for in woman".

[Jane]

What is disgusting about it?

What is disgusting about wanting to be in a relationship with someone who pulls their own weight?

1) She cooks: A lot of people don't like to cook, but some do.
2) She cleans: Most people hate cleaning, but some do.
3) She has sex (with him): Most people like to have sex, but some don't.

Why would any man want to be involved in a relationship with a woman who sits around all day watching TV and playing on the computer. Just to get home from work, and be greeted with and house that is a mess, and if he's lucky, kraft macaroni and cheese for dinner?

When I first posted this list, I prefaced it with "assuming he is attracted to her". I'll add to that, assuming he is attracted to her, she is pleasant to be around, and she has her life in order. 

And of course there are a lot of guys out there who just want to watch sports on TV all evening and drink beer too. I'd create a list like that of things to avoid in a male mate for women.

Had you said it like this, it's not. Particularly the bolded part. Funny how words work like that.

I have a feeling you meant it the first way, though.

[Jill the Pill]

The alternative to cook/clean/sex is watch TV and play computer?  Some women, you know, work.  Some take care of kids or elderly folks.  Some are disabled or otherwise incapable.  Some are gifted artists, writers, activists, volunteers -- all valid ways to fill a day that don't particularly contribute to a man's comfort. 

Not saying szymanski is in such a situation.  He certainly needs to think hard and decide about his relationship knowing all the trade-offs.  But, all relationships are complex systems of trade-offs, and people will choose to weigh them differently. 

Think about the difference between who someone is and what someone does.  Dynasty only seems to acknowledge the latter, which is guaranteed to change with the vagaries of life.  Most new parents spend a couple of years tolerating sub-standard food, house-keeping, and sex when the babies are small.  Folks also get old and lose their abilities and interest in some of these things, but love endures anyway.  A relationship founded on "pulling one's own weight" may get rough when one partner can't. 

[KulshanGirl]

I'm a lass and I didn't take Dynasty's post literally.  I think it was the caveman way to point out that the sex must be great if the OP is willing to look past all of those KAJILLION RED EFFING FLAGS.  I was thinking it myself.  But really, I have to echo most of the advice here, RUN. Run now.  Run fast, and far. 

I just left a relationship, eternally glad that we were not married and kept separate finances.  I am confident that I can do better on my own, or find someone who is also shedding burdens instead of creating them.  You should too, especially if kids are in your picture.  It is WAY harder, and heart-crushing, to make any sort of changes with children.

[Dynasty]

I have a feeling you meant it the first way, though.

Not really, but if it makes you feel better I sure did!

What really makes me mad is I think if anything szymanski should be the one who stays home all day, randomly applying for a job or two on the computer, and watch TV.

Then when his girlfriend gets home from work, she should cook him dinner 99% of the time, and then do 99% of the cleaning in the house.  After all that is done, they can then go run errands together during the evenings, or on the weekends when they can both be together to run errands.

In between szymanski eating the meals the girlfriend prepares for him, and her cleaning the house, he can dream up expensive vacations, and swanky restaurants to go to for dinner and drinks. You know, nothing less than $300 dollars a month these dinners and drinks should cost the girlfriend.

Finally, szymanski should be really concerned with having a child, getting married, and moving into a newer bigger house. Like soon! Like in the next six months soon.

And he'll be a stay at home dad.  And since taking care of the kid is going to be so exhausting and tiring all day, his new wife, when she gets home from working all day,  can make szymanski dinner, and clean the house too.

Does this sound better?