In praise of the 3 bedroom 1 bathroom house.

[Boofinator]

There's frugal, and then there's cheap.* For any living condition with more than two people, one bathroom falls on the cheap side of the spectrum (with of course the exception of where the current conception of cheap is actually frugal, such as a really low-income situation or having lived in the '70s). I would trade off in a heartbeat working two extra months of my life in order to be able to 1) have access to a crapper when I (or my family members) need one and 2) have general access to a bathroom when it is convenient. It's kind of like the decision of whether or not to own a car (or a second car): sure, I don't necessarily need one, and I would save a lot of money by not having one, but does it measurably improve my living standard relative to the amount I have to work to afford it?

*And then there's clownish: My current house has 4.5 baths, which is overkill for most of the year despite seven fulltime occupants.

I'd work two extra months for another bathroom too, but where'd you come up with that number?

The National Association of Home Builders reports that adding a half-bath to your home increases the value of an average home by 10 1/2 percent. Adding a full bath boosts the value by 20 percent.

https://pocketsense.com/much-new-bathroom-increase-value-house-1435.html

To be fair, I pulled it out my ass. In my case (for me and the spouse), you can substitute 2 months for about $30k. Probably not too far from the target.

Additionally, I wonder whether they are or are not including the extra square footage associated with houses that have more baths (in general), or whether they are comparing on an equal square footage basis? Other websites are giving a lower figure, so it seems to me like the NAHB might be using the former. (See, for example, this source, which estimates a 5% increase in value from an extra bathroom: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/property/online-estate-agent/home-improvements-that-add-value/.)

[big_owl]

There are whole threads on this forum devoted to not using shampoo or soap.... Just saying.

But this whole conversation did remind me of an SNL bit from when I was a kid, luckily YouTube is around to preserve it.

https://youtu.be/avb1XbO0EIs

Just saying what? Given the context it sounds like you're saying this is gross? My hair is healthier and less dry than it was when I used shampoo. I don't see anything gross about that.

And I'm a little skeptical of these supposed threads dedicated to not using soap, but if they exist I would be open minded to whether it's possible to do so and still be clean. If it works it works. Our ingrained beliefs that certain things are necessary don't change the real world results. Isn't that the underlying premise of this community?

It was a sarcastic comment for those who think cleaning a bathroom once a month is gross.  But I'm glad you found that the threads do indeed exist ;)

[Davnasty]

There are whole threads on this forum devoted to not using shampoo or soap.... Just saying.

But this whole conversation did remind me of an SNL bit from when I was a kid, luckily YouTube is around to preserve it.

https://youtu.be/avb1XbO0EIs

Just saying what? Given the context it sounds like you're saying this is gross? My hair is healthier and less dry than it was when I used shampoo. I don't see anything gross about that.

And I'm a little skeptical of these supposed threads dedicated to not using soap, but if they exist I would be open minded to whether it's possible to do so and still be clean. If it works it works. Our ingrained beliefs that certain things are necessary don't change the real world results. Isn't that the underlying premise of this community?

It was a sarcastic comment for those who think cleaning a bathroom once a month is gross.  But I'm glad you found that the threads do indeed exist ;)

Ah, makes sense. We probably clean every 2-4 weeks but I'll admit that our bathroom sometimes would qualify as "gross".

And I would add that proper ventilation and humidity levels make a big difference. In winter when the air is dry a quick wipe down is all that's needed but when humid it takes some scrubbing to keep smells at bay.

[Davnasty]

There's frugal, and then there's cheap.* For any living condition with more than two people, one bathroom falls on the cheap side of the spectrum (with of course the exception of where the current conception of cheap is actually frugal, such as a really low-income situation or having lived in the '70s). I would trade off in a heartbeat working two extra months of my life in order to be able to 1) have access to a crapper when I (or my family members) need one and 2) have general access to a bathroom when it is convenient. It's kind of like the decision of whether or not to own a car (or a second car): sure, I don't necessarily need one, and I would save a lot of money by not having one, but does it measurably improve my living standard relative to the amount I have to work to afford it?

*And then there's clownish: My current house has 4.5 baths, which is overkill for most of the year despite seven fulltime occupants.

I'd work two extra months for another bathroom too, but where'd you come up with that number?

The National Association of Home Builders reports that adding a half-bath to your home increases the value of an average home by 10 1/2 percent. Adding a full bath boosts the value by 20 percent.

https://pocketsense.com/much-new-bathroom-increase-value-house-1435.html

Well, we recently had a room completely plumbed + electrical to be a full-bath for just under $6k.  Add flooring, fixture and drywall/paint and the total for this particular bathroom would be around $9k.  So that’s pretty darn close to 2 months of our salary for a nicely-done 100sqft bathroom.

I’m certain one could do it for half that if the plumbing were straightforward, or one could easily spend $50k if it involved putting an extension on with external walls and a roof.

Sounds like 2 months might not be too far off base for some people.

However, I would point out that we shouldn't just be looking at monthly income to determine how many extra months a second bathroom would cost, we should be looking at monthly savings. If you make $60,000 after tax and an extra bathroom costs $10,000 then it would require 2 months of your income but if your savings rate is 50% then it really requires 4 months of extra work. For the 5-10% saver they're looking at 20-40 months.

[Metalcat]

There are whole threads on this forum devoted to not using shampoo or soap.... Just saying.

But this whole conversation did remind me of an SNL bit from when I was a kid, luckily YouTube is around to preserve it.

https://youtu.be/avb1XbO0EIs

Just saying what? Given the context it sounds like you're saying this is gross? My hair is healthier and less dry than it was when I used shampoo. I don't see anything gross about that.

And I'm a little skeptical of these supposed threads dedicated to not using soap, but if they exist I would be open minded to whether it's possible to do so and still be clean. If it works it works. Our ingrained beliefs that certain things are necessary don't change the real world results. Isn't that the underlying premise of this community?

It was a sarcastic comment for those who think cleaning a bathroom once a month is gross.  But I'm glad you found that the threads do indeed exist ;)

I'm the one who couldn't live with an only monthly cleaned bathroom. For me it's not about germs, I just hate dust and like the look of shiny clean things.

Not washing hair is perfectly reasonable...unless you have my job and commonly have other people's blood in your hair. That requires a proper detergent.

But no, I'm definitely not a germaphobe, I'm a clean freak, there's a difference. Lol

[Boofinator]

However, I would point out that we shouldn't just be looking at monthly income to determine how many extra months a second bathroom would cost, we should be looking at monthly savings. If you make $60,000 after tax and an extra bathroom costs $10,000 then it would require 2 months of your income but if your savings rate is 50% then it really requires 4 months of extra work. For the 5-10% saver they're looking at 20-40 months.

Yes, you're correct. One should use monthly savings to gauge discretionary expense value.

[zygote]

I lived in a 2-bedroom 1-bath apartment with my college roommate, and now I live in a 1-bedroom 1-bath apartment with my wife. It actually went better with my college roommate. We were both out of the house so much in college and had basically opposite schedules, so there weren't that many clashes.

My wife and I don't usually have issues getting ready, but (possibly TMI) she takes a much longer time to poop than anyone else I've lived with before. Also we both tend to pee pretty frequently (small bladders? well-hydrated? not sure why), so there are plenty of times when I'm left uncomfortable for a while when she's on the toilet. It's better now that we've been together longer and improved communication about bathroom stuff (way to break the romantic bubble of delusion, lol).

I would still love another half bath, but the kind of apartments that have more than one toilet are much fancier and way out of our price range. If we were going to have kids, I'd find a way to make it work.

[big_owl]

I lived in a 2-bedroom 1-bath apartment with my college roommate, and now I live in a 1-bedroom 1-bath apartment with my wife. It actually went better with my college roommate. We were both out of the house so much in college and had basically opposite schedules, so there weren't that many clashes.

My wife and I don't usually have issues getting ready, but (possibly TMI) she takes a much longer time to poop than anyone else I've lived with before. Also we both tend to pee pretty frequently (small bladders? well-hydrated? not sure why), so there are plenty of times when I'm left uncomfortable for a while when she's on the toilet. It's better now that we've been together longer and improved communication about bathroom stuff (way to break the romantic bubble of delusion, lol).I would still love another half bath, but the kind of apartments that have more than one toilet are much fancier and way out of our price range. If we were going to have kids, I'd find a way to make it work.

This is why I like multiple bathrooms.  My wife and I haven't had any sort of interactions involving poo in 15yrs.  She can TCB in the second story guest bath and I can go all the way down to the privacy of the basement at the same time.  In fact I don't even really know when she goes.  We don't cross paths at all. 

[Davnasty]

I lived in a 3 bed 1 bath apartment with 4 people and frequent guests yet somehow I don't remember the bathroom ever being much of an issue. I did occasionally pee in a bottle but I think I could have waited if I really needed to.

[ericrugiero]

However, I would point out that we shouldn't just be looking at monthly income to determine how many extra months a second bathroom would cost, we should be looking at monthly savings. If you make $60,000 after tax and an extra bathroom costs $10,000 then it would require 2 months of your income but if your savings rate is 50% then it really requires 4 months of extra work. For the 5-10% saver they're looking at 20-40 months.

Yes, you're correct. One should use monthly savings to gauge discretionary expense value.

That's true but if you do the work yourself in true MMM fashion then adding an extra bath can be quite economical.  I'm in the process of splitting a very large bathroom in my house into two decent sized baths and the total cost will be $2000-$2500 not including my labor.  It's certainly not needed (going from 2 bath to 3 bath is an unneeded luxury) but it will be nice for us while living there and if/when we sell it should easily add $10,000 to the value.  So, I'm under 2 months of salary anyway and if we sell then there will be a very good return on the investment. 

[YttriumNitrate]

I lived in a 3 bed 1 bath apartment with 4 people and frequent guests yet somehow I don't remember the bathroom ever being much of an issue. I did occasionally pee in a bottle but I think I could have waited if I really needed to.

Wow, from my perspective those are the two most contradictory sentences I've read this week. Well done sir.

[Davnasty]

I lived in a 3 bed 1 bath apartment with 4 people and frequent guests yet somehow I don't remember the bathroom ever being much of an issue. I did occasionally pee in a bottle but I think I could have waited if I really needed to.

Wow, from my perspective those are the two most contradictory sentences I've read this week. Well done sir.

How so? As far as I know pissing in a bottle never caused me any harm. More importantly, it was a choice of convenience over waiting for someone to finish up in the bathroom, not a necessity.

[big_owl]

There are whole threads on this forum devoted to not using shampoo or soap.... Just saying.

But this whole conversation did remind me of an SNL bit from when I was a kid, luckily YouTube is around to preserve it.

https://youtu.be/avb1XbO0EIs

Just saying what? Given the context it sounds like you're saying this is gross? My hair is healthier and less dry than it was when I used shampoo. I don't see anything gross about that.

And I'm a little skeptical of these supposed threads dedicated to not using soap, but if they exist I would be open minded to whether it's possible to do so and still be clean. If it works it works. Our ingrained beliefs that certain things are necessary don't change the real world results. Isn't that the underlying premise of this community?

It was a sarcastic comment for those who think cleaning a bathroom once a month is gross.  But I'm glad you found that the threads do indeed exist ;)

Ah, makes sense. We probably clean every 2-4 weeks but I'll admit that our bathroom sometimes would qualify as "gross".

And I would add that proper ventilation and humidity levels make a big difference. In winter when the air is dry a quick wipe down is all that's needed but when humid it takes some scrubbing to keep smells at bay.

I've added delay-off timers to all the bathroom fans in my house, where the run-times are customized to the size of the bathroom.  Then there's no worrying about humidity after a shower or having to leave the fan on for long periods of time when you have to crap and run, so to speak. 

I don't think I'd ever count our bathroom as gross.  Maybe it's because we're on well water with a softener, but the shower is basically self-cleaning and we don't ever get any buildup.  I have a spray bottle of bleach cleaner in every bathroom so if the toilet needs a quick wipe down then that just takes seconds. 

I don't really have dust buildup in my bathrooms.  I do wipe down counter tops from time to time with said bleach spray, and the floors do get mopped every so often.  I tend to use the bleach spray and paper towel on the floor immediately surrounding the toilets in case of any splashing that might have occurred. 

Actually for an unrelated reason this summer I bought one of those UV blacklight flashlights.  I finally built up the courage one day to go shine it in the bathroom expecting the area around the toilet to light up.  Surprisingly there was basically no efflorescence, I was pleasantly surprised.

[bacchi]

There's frugal, and then there's cheap.* For any living condition with more than two people, one bathroom falls on the cheap side of the spectrum (with of course the exception of where the current conception of cheap is actually frugal, such as a really low-income situation or having lived in the '70s). I would trade off in a heartbeat working two extra months of my life in order to be able to 1) have access to a crapper when I (or my family members) need one and 2) have general access to a bathroom when it is convenient. It's kind of like the decision of whether or not to own a car (or a second car): sure, I don't necessarily need one, and I would save a lot of money by not having one, but does it measurably improve my living standard relative to the amount I have to work to afford it?

*And then there's clownish: My current house has 4.5 baths, which is overkill for most of the year despite seven fulltime occupants.

Are the millions of Europeans living in a 3/1 cheap or frugal?

It's fascinating what gets people's dander up. It must be some cultural thing where a 3/1 is considered "poor" and a 3/2 is considered "affluent." Like walk-in closets, perhaps, or granite countertops.

[FireHiker]

My wife and I don't usually have issues getting ready, but (possibly TMI) she takes a much longer time to poop than anyone else I've lived with before. Also we both tend to pee pretty frequently (small bladders? well-hydrated? not sure why), so there are plenty of times when I'm left uncomfortable for a while when she's on the toilet. It's better now that we've been together longer and improved communication about bathroom stuff (way to break the romantic bubble of delusion, lol).

Yeah, substitute "husband" for "wife" and I am right there with you...we will always have two toilets if I have a say in the matter! We just downsized from a house with 4 full bathrooms to 2.5 baths (and the half is just barely a big enough room for a toilet and sink, but that's fine) for four people. I'm totally on board with downsizing in general, but I will always want to keep 2 toilets...my husband takes longer than any human should really take in there...

[zygote]

I forgot to say I spend ~20 minutes cleaning our bathroom once a week. Frankly most of the issue comes from our shower since there is no ventilation in the room. Even leaving the door open and cracking the window doesn't do much to keep the mold and mildew out. But the weekly scrub is enough to keep it from getting out of control.

If I had another bathroom that was just a toilet and a sink, it would probably only add 5-10 minutes of cleaning a week and I would consider that an excellent tradeoff.

[Boofinator]

There's frugal, and then there's cheap.* For any living condition with more than two people, one bathroom falls on the cheap side of the spectrum (with of course the exception of where the current conception of cheap is actually frugal, such as a really low-income situation or having lived in the '70s). I would trade off in a heartbeat working two extra months of my life in order to be able to 1) have access to a crapper when I (or my family members) need one and 2) have general access to a bathroom when it is convenient. It's kind of like the decision of whether or not to own a car (or a second car): sure, I don't necessarily need one, and I would save a lot of money by not having one, but does it measurably improve my living standard relative to the amount I have to work to afford it?

*And then there's clownish: My current house has 4.5 baths, which is overkill for most of the year despite seven fulltime occupants.

Are the millions of Europeans living in a 3/1 cheap or frugal?

I would ask people who live in a 3/1 whether they would prefer to have a second bathroom, and if so, whether they would be willing to work an extra x months to afford that convenience (with the number of months relating to the required time spent working to save that kind of money). For those with large x or no desire for a second bathroom, then I'd call that frugal. For those with small x who answered yes to the first question, then I'd say they're being cheap.

I think the other side of the equation is that the demographics for Europe are significantly different than in the U.S. First, there's higher average population density; second, there's higher population density within cities, as transportation costs are higher; and finally, I'm pretty sure the average home in Europe is simply older than the average American home. There are probably other factors I'm overlooking as well that make housing size a significantly different value proposition in Europe versus the U.S.

[mm1970]

There's frugal, and then there's cheap.* For any living condition with more than two people, one bathroom falls on the cheap side of the spectrum (with of course the exception of where the current conception of cheap is actually frugal, such as a really low-income situation or having lived in the '70s). I would trade off in a heartbeat working two extra months of my life in order to be able to 1) have access to a crapper when I (or my family members) need one and 2) have general access to a bathroom when it is convenient. It's kind of like the decision of whether or not to own a car (or a second car): sure, I don't necessarily need one, and I would save a lot of money by not having one, but does it measurably improve my living standard relative to the amount I have to work to afford it?

*And then there's clownish: My current house has 4.5 baths, which is overkill for most of the year despite seven fulltime occupants.

But my 2BR, 1BA house with no garage, no basement, no attic was $788,000, so pardon me if I didn't have the money to spend an extra $50k or so for a second bathroom.

In fact, the vast majority of homes in my city were built between 1920 and 1970, and the "working class" homes ALL only have 1 bathroom. In the 1960s and 1970s, the houses went from 2BR to 3BR, but still with only 1 bathroom. The fancy-schmancy rich people homes were bigger.  Sadly, the cost to add a bathroom here, due to soaring building costs and permitting, is around $50-$100k.  How badly do I REALLY need another toilet?  I've been here for 15 years, kid #1 is gonna be gone in 5.  I grew up in a house with anywhere from 5-7 people and a single bathroom.

In many areas of the country, that's what you get.  Older homes have one bathroom.

[bacchi]

There's frugal, and then there's cheap.* For any living condition with more than two people, one bathroom falls on the cheap side of the spectrum (with of course the exception of where the current conception of cheap is actually frugal, such as a really low-income situation or having lived in the '70s). I would trade off in a heartbeat working two extra months of my life in order to be able to 1) have access to a crapper when I (or my family members) need one and 2) have general access to a bathroom when it is convenient. It's kind of like the decision of whether or not to own a car (or a second car): sure, I don't necessarily need one, and I would save a lot of money by not having one, but does it measurably improve my living standard relative to the amount I have to work to afford it?

*And then there's clownish: My current house has 4.5 baths, which is overkill for most of the year despite seven fulltime occupants.

Are the millions of Europeans living in a 3/1 cheap or frugal?

I would ask people who live in a 3/1 whether they would prefer to have a second bathroom, and if so, whether they would be willing to work an extra x months to afford that convenience (with the number of months relating to the required time spent working to save that kind of money). For those with large x or no desire for a second bathroom, then I'd call that frugal. For those with small x who answered yes to the first question, then I'd say they're being cheap.

That's a good definition but does disagree with your statement bolded above.

For those who save $5k/month, a $50k bath addition would take 10 months of work. Compare that to $10k (2 months) for someone remodeling a large closet behind the current bathroom pipes.

[mm1970]

a $50k bath addition would take 10 months of work

Plus, that's a year or two of college for one of my kids.
Plus, we'd likely have to move out for at least a few months of that.

We're DINKs too which means even our small house is empty 99% of the time. Let's assume we each spend 20 minutes a day in the bathroom, which is probably more than we actually do. Out of 24 hours in the day that means the bathroom is occupied less than 3% of the day. I like to take a shower at the end of the day which means my s/o occasionally walks in to brush his teeth which I don't mind at all. We didn't even have any issues when we had a roommate who took two very long showers a day.

I liked Imma's analysis too.  We probably use 15 minutes per person on a work day, maybe 20 minutes per person on the weekends.  So that's 1 hour total, 5 days a week.  1 hr 20 minutes on weekends.  That's about 5% usage.  Yes, it seems like 8 am is "prime time", but we are working on it.  Honestly, if the 7 yo has to go poo, I'm gonna let him poo.

I think about this analysis about the house too.  Our house sits empty so much!  I'm actually WFH today, so it's a little better than  normal.  We spend a lot of time at home on the weekends though.

[Boofinator]

There's frugal, and then there's cheap.* For any living condition with more than two people, one bathroom falls on the cheap side of the spectrum (with of course the exception of where the current conception of cheap is actually frugal, such as a really low-income situation or having lived in the '70s). I would trade off in a heartbeat working two extra months of my life in order to be able to 1) have access to a crapper when I (or my family members) need one and 2) have general access to a bathroom when it is convenient. It's kind of like the decision of whether or not to own a car (or a second car): sure, I don't necessarily need one, and I would save a lot of money by not having one, but does it measurably improve my living standard relative to the amount I have to work to afford it?

*And then there's clownish: My current house has 4.5 baths, which is overkill for most of the year despite seven fulltime occupants.

But my 2BR, 1BA house with no garage, no basement, no attic was $788,000, so pardon me if I didn't have the money to spend an extra $50k or so for a second bathroom.

In fact, the vast majority of homes in my city were built between 1920 and 1970, and the "working class" homes ALL only have 1 bathroom. In the 1960s and 1970s, the houses went from 2BR to 3BR, but still with only 1 bathroom. The fancy-schmancy rich people homes were bigger.  Sadly, the cost to add a bathroom here, due to soaring building costs and permitting, is around $50-$100k.  How badly do I REALLY need another toilet?  I've been here for 15 years, kid #1 is gonna be gone in 5.  I grew up in a house with anywhere from 5-7 people and a single bathroom.

In many areas of the country, that's what you get.  Older homes have one bathroom.

You're right, I generalized a bit much there. Considering the cost for your bathroom, I would say you are probably making the frugal choice.

[Montecarlo]

Look at all you fancy fat cats with indoor plumbing

[nereo]

Look at all you fancy fat cats with indoor plumbing

Something, something, $4 bucket from Home Depot, done.
:-P

[Davnasty]

Look at all you fancy fat cats with indoor plumbing

Something, something, $4 bucket from Home Depot, done.
:-P

Oooh, look at me, I have so much money I can throw it around on brand new buckets...

I'll stick to various containers I've scavenged from the recycle bins thank you very much.

[mm1970]

Look at all you fancy fat cats with indoor plumbing

Something, something, $4 bucket from Home Depot, done.
:-P

Neighbor up the street has a renter who built a yurt to live in on the property...with a $2k composting toilet.

[chouchouu]

One under-discussed aspect of the OP here is the assumption that homes built several decades ago (e.g. in the 1950s-1970s) were somehow ‘better constructed’ than new construction homes.  I think this is dead wrong.

I’m reminded of a running joke of both Norm (Yankee Workshop) and Bob Vila (This Old House) whenever they started renovation work.  “Man, they sure don’t make them like they used to... [long pause] ... thank god!”

Part of this is certainly survival bias; the homes which are still around from three generations ago were well built and well cared for, and/or have been extensively renovated.  The poorly built ones have been bulldozed.  In contrast, while building codes can be a PITA during construction and renovation, the net result is a much safer, better insulated and less toxic dwelling.  Homes from the 50s-70s were among the worst offenders, as building-science hadn’t come to the forefront and builders didn’t understand the importance of air-sealing.  New materials (asbestos, formaldehyde, plastics) were used before we knew anything about their potential hazards.

Anyway.... FWIW we have a 3/3 but plan to rent out 1 bedroom and 1 bathroom (so our ‘living space’ is a 2/2).  I’d rather have our theoretical second-child share a bedroom than lose that second bathroom, but I acknowledge this is a ‘first-world problem’.

OP here. I'm in Australia so perhaps it's different here but new builds are notoriously poor construction. Australians are big fans of McMansions and its genuinely difficult to find new builds with basic things such as cross ventilation and decent eaves.

There are shoddy builds from the 70s and 80s but they still seem better than what is available now.

[nereo]

One under-discussed aspect of the OP here is the assumption that homes built several decades ago (e.g. in the 1950s-1970s) were somehow ‘better constructed’ than new construction homes.  I think this is dead wrong.

I’m reminded of a running joke of both Norm (Yankee Workshop) and Bob Vila (This Old House) whenever they started renovation work.  “Man, they sure don’t make them like they used to... [long pause] ... thank god!”

Part of this is certainly survival bias; the homes which are still around from three generations ago were well built and well cared for, and/or have been extensively renovated.  The poorly built ones have been bulldozed.  In contrast, while building codes can be a PITA during construction and renovation, the net result is a much safer, better insulated and less toxic dwelling.  Homes from the 50s-70s were among the worst offenders, as building-science hadn’t come to the forefront and builders didn’t understand the importance of air-sealing.  New materials (asbestos, formaldehyde, plastics) were used before we knew anything about their potential hazards.

Anyway.... FWIW we have a 3/3 but plan to rent out 1 bedroom and 1 bathroom (so our ‘living space’ is a 2/2).  I’d rather have our theoretical second-child share a bedroom than lose that second bathroom, but I acknowledge this is a ‘first-world problem’.

OP here. I'm in Australia so perhaps it's different here but new builds are notoriously poor construction. Australians are big fans of McMansions and its genuinely difficult to find new builds with basic things such as cross ventilation and decent eaves.

There are shoddy builds from the 70s and 80s but they still seem better than what is available now.

I have not yet made it to Australia, so I can't comment specifically there, but again there's survival bias at play.  The worst of the builds from the 1970s have either been renovated or torn down.  You can't compare all the builds today to what remains (and has been modified) from 40 years ago.

[ReadySetMillionaire]

The logic is good. But why not buy a house that lends itself to adding on a bathroom as a DIY project? Maybe just a 1/2 bath.

Don't have time to read this whole thread, but I agree with both OP and this post.  My house was 3 BR 1.5 Bath, and we finished the half bath this winter, and it's been great.

[YttriumNitrate]

OP here. I'm in Australia so perhaps it's different here but new builds are notoriously poor construction. Australians are big fans of McMansions and its genuinely difficult to find new builds with basic things such as cross ventilation and decent eaves.

It seems the various systems of a house (electrical, roof, plumbing, etc.) generally follow bathtub curves of varying durations. New construction is always going to be problematic because a myriad of things are in their early failure period.

[accolay]

A large portion of old housing stock in my area are in the old 3-1 configuration. However do people with those houses cope? I can't believe I read through this entire thread.

This is still MMM right? WTF.

[Boofinator]

A large portion of old housing stock in my area are in the old 3-1 configuration. However do people with those houses cope? I can't believe I read through this entire thread.

This is still MMM right? WTF.

It is, last I checked. Has MMM decreed from on high that all persons should live in a 3/1? Or perhaps he's led by example by never living in a house larger than a 3/1?

[Davnasty]

A large portion of old housing stock in my area are in the old 3-1 configuration. However do people with those houses cope? I can't believe I read through this entire thread.

This is still MMM right? WTF.

It is, last I checked. Has MMM decreed from on high that all persons should live in a 3/1? Or perhaps he's led by example by never living in a house larger than a 3/1?

I don't think having 2 bathrooms is anti-MMM, but rather the wailing and gnashing of teeth over the thought of not having 2 bathrooms is a bit much. I think your comments thus far have all made good sense, if the cost of a second bathroom is in line with the benefit it provides then maybe you should have it. It's just that it is a luxury and all luxuries should be on the table for compromise. When someone claims they will not compromise on a luxury, that's when they become a sucka.

To be fair though, I assume that the "you'll take my second bathroom from my cold, dead hands" people are exaggerating at least a little for comedic effect.

[Dicey]

A large portion of old housing stock in my area are in the old 3-1 configuration. However do people with those houses cope? I can't believe I read through this entire thread.

This is still MMM right? WTF.

Once you hit FIRE, you get to do "WTF" you want. Like living in a clown house with 3.5 bathrooms...

[Davnasty]

A large portion of old housing stock in my area are in the old 3-1 configuration. However do people with those houses cope? I can't believe I read through this entire thread.

This is still MMM right? WTF.

Once you hit FIRE, you get to do "WTF" you want. Like living in a clown house with 3.5 bathrooms...

Of course. You can also do whatever you want before FIRE, but that doesn't mean it's in line with Mustachianism. I'm pretty sure MMM has never written an article about splurging on material luxury once you have excess funds. Luxury "because I can" is pretty much the opposite of the blog's goal.

[Metalcat]

A large portion of old housing stock in my area are in the old 3-1 configuration. However do people with those houses cope? I can't believe I read through this entire thread.

This is still MMM right? WTF.

We're cheap, gross bastards who don't mind the smell of each other's shit while we shower. Haven't you read the thread???

Honestly, it's given me a good laugh.

I find it funny how each side can find the other gross.
The multi bath folks can perceive the single bath people as gross for having one bathroom that people have to
-wait uncomfortably while urgently needing to go
-burst in while the person is showering
-piss in a bottle
-have guests use a bathroom strewn with personal items
-etc

Meanwhile, the single bath folks may perceive the multi bath people as
-highly irregular in their daily ablutions
-prone to oddly urgent bodily functions and should probably request a colonoscopy from their MD (applies only to those who aren't already diagnosed with severe digestive problems, obviously)
-having very messy bathrooms if they aren't presentable for guests

Then there's the cleaning habits.
Are the "it takes so long to clean" people taking that long because they're meticulous or because their family is filthy?

Are the "it only takes 10 minutes" people never actually cleaning thoroughly, or is it so quick because everyone in the family has a habit of wiping every surface every time they use it, so nothing builds up?

Regardless, this thread about housing costs turned into a hilarious cultural essay on bathroom behaviours.

[big_owl]

A large portion of old housing stock in my area are in the old 3-1 configuration. However do people with those houses cope? I can't believe I read through this entire thread.

This is still MMM right? WTF.

We're cheap, gross bastards who don't mind the smell of each other's shit while we shower. Haven't you read the thread???

Honestly, it's given me a good laugh.

I find it funny how each side can find the other gross.
The multi bath folks can perceive the single bath people as gross for having one bathroom that people have to
-wait uncomfortably while urgently needing to go
-burst in while the person is showering
-piss in a bottle
-have guests use a bathroom strewn with personal items
-etc

Meanwhile, the single bath folks may perceive the multi bath people as
-highly irregular in their daily ablutions
-prone to oddly urgent bodily functions and should probably request a colonoscopy from their MD (applies only to those who aren't already diagnosed with severe digestive problems, obviously)
-having very messy bathrooms if they aren't presentable for guests

Then there's the cleaning habits.
Are the "it takes so long to clean" people taking that long because they're meticulous or because their family is filthy?

Are the "it only takes 10 minutes" people never actually cleaning thoroughly, or is it so quick because everyone in the family has a habit of wiping every surface every time they use it, so nothing builds up?

Regardless, this thread about housing costs turned into a hilarious cultural essay on bathroom behaviours.

Yeah, no shit.  Wait...

[OtherJen]

A large portion of old housing stock in my area are in the old 3-1 configuration. However do people with those houses cope? I can't believe I read through this entire thread.

This is still MMM right? WTF.

We're cheap, gross bastards who don't mind the smell of each other's shit while we shower. Haven't you read the thread???

Honestly, it's given me a good laugh.

I find it funny how each side can find the other gross.
The multi bath folks can perceive the single bath people as gross for having one bathroom that people have to
-wait uncomfortably while urgently needing to go
-burst in while the person is showering
-piss in a bottle
-have guests use a bathroom strewn with personal items
-etc

Meanwhile, the single bath folks may perceive the multi bath people as
-highly irregular in their daily ablutions
-prone to oddly urgent bodily functions and should probably request a colonoscopy from their MD (applies only to those who aren't already diagnosed with severe digestive problems, obviously)
-having very messy bathrooms if they aren't presentable for guests

Then there's the cleaning habits.
Are the "it takes so long to clean" people taking that long because they're meticulous or because their family is filthy?

Are the "it only takes 10 minutes" people never actually cleaning thoroughly, or is it so quick because everyone in the family has a habit of wiping every surface every time they use it, so nothing builds up?

Regardless, this thread about housing costs turned into a hilarious cultural essay on bathroom behaviours.

Right?! I had no idea that my standard of housing (1 bathroom) for nearly all my life was equivalent to a slum in Mumbai until I read this thread. Actually, mine might be lower because I haven’t actually dug the suggested hole in the backyard yet. ;-)

[Just Joe]

Same here, even when I shared with the 4 guys, it just wasn't an issue. We kind of had a routine, literally no one EVER used the toilet while someone else was in the shower. The thought actually horrifies me.

Yeah - especially in one of the bathrooms with clear glass showers. Who thinks this is a good idea?

We moved house a few months ago. No frosted glass in the shower. Probably something I will change soon. Normally no one comes in but DW. With the way the bathroom door is hinged, the person entering first sees the mirror and the mirror reflects the shower directly across. Now I'm no prude - I spent many years in the military. Still, privacy is welcome.

[Just Joe]

I am following this thread with some amusement. I wonder if what we are seeing here is actually a discussion about different cultural attitudes to bodily functions/privacy/modesty?
There are some very strongly expressed views that do not lean toward the Mustachian perspective. Not a criticism, just a comment!

My grandparents lived in a house when I was a child that was built in the mid-1970s. Kitchen had a half-bath that was an arm's length from the dinner table. Absolutely no privacy even with the pocket door closed. And there were a few times over the years that even the adults would visit that loo with people in the kitchen.

NOPE! No kitchen bathrooms. Would have been so easy to move that half bath to a nearby room and swap a closet for the bath and gain loads of privacy. Again I'm not a prude but there are things best done alone.

https://www.familyhandyman.com/plumbing/heres-why-old-houses-have-a-random-toilet-in-the-basement/

[big_owl]

While we're piling on I might as well bare my ass.  We're going to DIY redo our master bathroom in 2020 and the budget is currently $60k.  Now to be fair, $10k of that is for a wood bathtub.  Heated floors are also a must.  We take our shit very seriously.

We also have a kitchen bathroom and it's the worst.  You can hear everything when someone's in it.  One time a family friend was over and she clearly had a case of the D.  She went in there while we were sitting at the table and proceeded to tear shit up for about 10mins.  It was so awkward when she resurfaced. 

As part of my master reno project I am going to blow insulation in the interior bathroom and bedroom walls.  I wish I would have known to do that when we built the house but we were newbs to home ownership. 

[Metalcat]

Wow...

I've lived in over 40 homes from 150+ years old to brand new and I have never ever seen a kitchen bathroom.

That just sounds so odd.

[big_owl]

Wow...

I've lived in over 40 homes from 150+ years old to brand new and I have never ever seen a kitchen bathroom.

That just sounds so odd.

It's not so much seeing a kitchen bathroom as it is hearing and smelling a kitchen bathroom that's so scarring lol.

[Metalcat]

Wow...

I've lived in over 40 homes from 150+ years old to brand new and I have never ever seen a kitchen bathroom.

That just sounds so odd.

It's not so much seeing a kitchen bathroom as it is hearing and smelling a kitchen bathroom that's so scarring lol.

Oh...I got that...

Clearly and vividly from people's posts.

[Just Joe]

There is nothing quite like everyone sitting at the dinner table while someone is in the kitchen bath an arm's length away for... a while... Grandparents' bath didn't have a ceiling vent fan either as I recall. I cringe even today nearly 50 years later.

It is worse than a crowded public bathroom. At least you won't see those strangers again - hopefully.

[OtherJen]

Wow...

I've lived in over 40 homes from 150+ years old to brand new and I have never ever seen a kitchen bathroom.

That just sounds so odd.

I lived in one with a kitchen bathroom. It...wasn't ideal.

It was a c. 1890s house with a 4-bed, 1-bath that was converted into a two-flat structure with 2-bed/1-bath upstairs and 2-bed/1-bath downstairs. The front and rear bedrooms upstairs were converted into a living room and kitchen. Downstairs was more challenging, as the front parlor had to have a door installed for a bedroom and the office was converted into a teeny 2nd bedroom. The only place to stick a lower bathroom was off the back of the kitchen so that's what my grandfather did.

We actually lived in both flats over time. We first moved into the upstairs flat when my grandfather got sick so that we could help out. Other than having to lug groceries and everything else upstairs, it was a comfortable apartment layout and generally fine for a small family. After my grandfather died, my parents bought the house from my grandmother and we switched floors. It was considerably more challenging for the three of us to live downstairs because there was much less privacy and quiet (the bedrooms were right off of the living room) and no built-in storage (e.g., closets) in the bedrooms.

[big_owl]

There is nothing quite like everyone sitting at the dinner table while someone is in the kitchen bath an arm's length away for... a while... Grandparents' bath didn't have a ceiling vent fan either as I recall. I cringe even today nearly 50 years later.

It is worse than a crowded public bathroom. At least you won't see those strangers again - hopefully.

Having no fan should be illegal.  There are building codes for that sort of shit now thank god.  I've also upgraded the fans in my key go-to bathrooms to maintain as much negative pressure as possible.  Your ears should pop when you fire that baby up.

[FireHiker]

To be fair though, I assume that the "you'll take my second bathroom from my cold, dead hands" people are exaggerating at least a little for comedic effect.

I think I was one of these...I'm not exaggerating, or not much anyway. If my husband didn't monopolize the toilet for such a long period every single freaking morning, I would feel differently. I'll gladly go without a number of other "standard" things if I can keep a tiny half bath. We do live with one toilet when we travel and use a hotel room, and by the time we're home I'm always thankful to have the second toilet. Seriously, what does he do in there? Why does it take 45 minutes (or more!) to poop every single day? I mean, I just wait until I have to go and then it's in and out...I can't understand sitting in there forever trying to make yourself go at a "set" time every day. We work at the same place; the bathrooms are plenty nice here and there are even 3 single room bathrooms if he's wanting privacy.

But, I wouldn't say someone else MUST have two toilets in there house...I would just prefer to have two personally due to specific circumstances with my husband and his damned bathroom habits. I would probably buy a 3 and 1 and add a half bath if it were that our a new McMansion (which I have had and since sold), but we could do all of the work ourselves to add a half bath if necessary, so it wouldn't be much expense for us. Lots of general contractors in the family; we have done a fair bit of plumbing and wiring ourselves over the years.

[Just Joe]

There is nothing quite like everyone sitting at the dinner table while someone is in the kitchen bath an arm's length away for... a while... Grandparents' bath didn't have a ceiling vent fan either as I recall. I cringe even today nearly 50 years later.

It is worse than a crowded public bathroom. At least you won't see those strangers again - hopefully.

Having no fan should be illegal.  There are building codes for that sort of shit now thank god.  I've also upgraded the fans in my key go-to bathrooms to maintain as much negative pressure as possible.  Your ears should pop when you fire that baby up.

Like a pull-start rope hanging from the ceiling? What brand motor? Briggs & Stratton? Husqvarna?

[big_owl]

There is nothing quite like everyone sitting at the dinner table while someone is in the kitchen bath an arm's length away for... a while... Grandparents' bath didn't have a ceiling vent fan either as I recall. I cringe even today nearly 50 years later.

It is worse than a crowded public bathroom. At least you won't see those strangers again - hopefully.

Having no fan should be illegal.  There are building codes for that sort of shit now thank god.  I've also upgraded the fans in my key go-to bathrooms to maintain as much negative pressure as possible.  Your ears should pop when you fire that baby up.

Like a pull-start rope hanging from the ceiling? What brand motor? Briggs & Stratton? Husqvarna?

I'm thinking something like a Toshiba IEEE severe duty motor with a soft starter on it.  You know it's powerful enough when the lights dim as you bring it up.

[mm1970]

To be fair though, I assume that the "you'll take my second bathroom from my cold, dead hands" people are exaggerating at least a little for comedic effect.

I think I was one of these...I'm not exaggerating, or not much anyway. If my husband didn't monopolize the toilet for such a long period every single freaking morning, I would feel differently. I'll gladly go without a number of other "standard" things if I can keep a tiny half bath. We do live with one toilet when we travel and use a hotel room, and by the time we're home I'm always thankful to have the second toilet. Seriously, what does he do in there? Why does it take 45 minutes (or more!) to poop every single day? I mean, I just wait until I have to go and then it's in and out...I can't understand sitting in there forever trying to make yourself go at a "set" time every day. We work at the same place; the bathrooms are plenty nice here and there are even 3 single room bathrooms if he's wanting privacy.

But, I wouldn't say someone else MUST have two toilets in there house...I would just prefer to have two personally due to specific circumstances with my husband and his damned bathroom habits. I would probably buy a 3 and 1 and add a half bath if it were that our a new McMansion (which I have had and since sold), but we could do all of the work ourselves to add a half bath if necessary, so it wouldn't be much expense for us. Lots of general contractors in the family; we have done a fair bit of plumbing and wiring ourselves over the years.

Ha, I can relate.  My husband takes SO LONG in the bathroom.  Both doing his business and showering. He's gotten better but every once in awhile, I have to remind him "if you are going to go in there to do anything other than pee, you HAVE to give everyone else the option to go in there first!"  We had a bad stretch earlier this year.  Luckily, my boys can pee in the back yard if necessary.

Interestingly, almost every vacation we go on, we have a bigger place than our house.  Most of the time we do AirBNB, and rent houses or condos, and they almost always have 2 bathrooms, and often 3 bedrooms (we live in a 2/1).  Our next 2 trips not quite - a 2Bed/1BA and a 1Bed/2BA.