Feeling burned out. Anyone else?

[LaineyAZ]

And sadly, plenty of people reserve vacation time to handle family emergencies because they need the time off to be paid.  So the time isn't for recreation, it's to get things done that need to be done and not miss a paycheck.

[StarBright]

@StarBright, you really need to take 2 weeks off.  I do that about every 2 years.  About 10 years ago, when I was in my early 40s, was the first time I ever did that.  I could not BELIEVE how refreshing and relaxing it was.  It took me four days to really unplug from work.  And then, WOW, another week and a half??  It was glorious.

Amen to taking 2 weeks at a time.
One of my commanders in the Air Force strongly encouraged everyone to take 2 weeks at least once a year. For me, the first week was rest and recovery and then the second week was the actual fun one. As @mm1970 says, "It was glorious."

Why would you not use your vacation time every year?

Mainly because we have a company policy that you can't take off more than 5 days in a row without special approval. But also because the overwork on either side of the vacation to prepare for being off makes it not worth it sometimes. (There are other perks to my job which is why I've held it so long - but it has not been a good fit for me for several years).

My company actually sounds like it has a pretty generous leave policy if you hang on longer than 5 years. The problem is getting the leave approved due to project needs. We have people that leave weeks on the table every year because they always need to be pulled onto projects and their leave get cancelled/not approved.

My first request, before I even request part time, is actually going to be to use my remaining vacation days one to two days a week for the rest of the calendar year. My fingers are crossed!

[Malee55]

Hopefully using your leave that way gets approved @StarBright . It can make such a difference working one day less a week, on the proviso that you are not expected to do the same amount of work in fewer hours.

We get 5 weeks off a year and are chased to take time off if too many weeks accumulate. It did not prevent me getting burnt out eventually, but certainly slows the process.

[lutorm]

My company actually sounds like it has a pretty generous leave policy if you hang on longer than 5 years. The problem is getting the leave approved due to project needs. We have people that leave weeks on the table every year because they always need to be pulled onto projects and their leave get cancelled/not approved.

Sounds like need for FY money -- tell them that the project will suffer a lot more if you quit than if they give you your vacation.

Honestly, one episode of having a planned leave cancelled by the company would be it for me. I mean, if you don't have enough respect for your employees to not pull stuff like that, then why should I give an eff about your projects?

[OtherJen]

@StarBright, you really need to take 2 weeks off.  I do that about every 2 years.  About 10 years ago, when I was in my early 40s, was the first time I ever did that.  I could not BELIEVE how refreshing and relaxing it was.  It took me four days to really unplug from work.  And then, WOW, another week and a half??  It was glorious.

Amen to taking 2 weeks at a time.
One of my commanders in the Air Force strongly encouraged everyone to take 2 weeks at least once a year. For me, the first week was rest and recovery and then the second week was the actual fun one. As @mm1970 says, "It was glorious."

Why would you not use your vacation time every year?

It’s frowned upon by many US employers.

[lutorm]

It’s frowned upon by many US employers.

Then they should not claim to give as many vacation days...

[dougules]

@StarBright, you really need to take 2 weeks off.  I do that about every 2 years.  About 10 years ago, when I was in my early 40s, was the first time I ever did that.  I could not BELIEVE how refreshing and relaxing it was.  It took me four days to really unplug from work.  And then, WOW, another week and a half??  It was glorious.

Amen to taking 2 weeks at a time.
One of my commanders in the Air Force strongly encouraged everyone to take 2 weeks at least once a year. For me, the first week was rest and recovery and then the second week was the actual fun one. As @mm1970 says, "It was glorious."

Two weeks is still so ridiculously low.  We had a rep come from Germany a few years ago to teach us about some equipment we had bought from her company.  While chatting with her on a break I told her how much vacation time I got, and she looked at me like I had told her we were kept in cages.  There are twelve months in a year.   One of them off is only 8% of the total work year.   /rant

[Just Joe]

Hopefully using your leave that way gets approved @StarBright . It can make such a difference working one day less a week, on the proviso that you are not expected to do the same amount of work in fewer hours.

We get 5 weeks off a year and are chased to take time off if too many weeks accumulate. It did not prevent me getting burnt out eventually, but certainly slows the process.

I took many Fridays off this summer. Provided for a nice mental and physical reset without the pre- and post- vacation chaos. DW and I weren't very motivated to vacation this year away from home b/c of crazy prices and COVID crowds.

[2sk22]

And sadly, plenty of people reserve vacation time to handle family emergencies because they need the time off to be paid.  So the time isn't for recreation, it's to get things done that need to be done and not miss a paycheck.

This is a very important point. Almost all of my "vacation" time from 2017 to 2020 was actually taken for caring for my father who was ailing from Alzheimers. I dearly wanted some real relaxation but it was impossible and this hastened my retirement.

[ardrum]

By far, I like taking vacation most in 1 day increments.  Long vacations only make me miserable when I get back (the longer I'm not at work, the harder it is to return).  One day breaks spread out seem like the best balance.  My goal for 2022 is to use 30 vacations days to help make the year more tolerable.  I want to always be within reach of a 3 day weekend.  I fortunately earn 27 vacation days/year, and I will have around 28 days already saved up by year end.  My employer recognizes only 6 holidays per year, but that plus 30 days I voluntarily use will get me on average 3 days off per month.

[JJ-]

By far, I like taking vacation most in 1 day increments.  Long vacations only make me miserable when I get back (the longer I'm not at work, the harder it is to return).  One day breaks spread out seem like the best balance.  My goal for 2022 is to use 30 vacations days to help make the year more tolerable.  I want to always be within reach of a 3 day weekend.  I fortunately earn 27 vacation days/year, and I will have around 28 days already saved up by year end.  My employer recognizes only 6 holidays per year, but that plus 30 days I voluntarily use will get me on average 3 days off per month.

I had a colleague who swears by taking nearly all Wednesdays off. He liked having a mini weekend surrounded by two day mini work weeks. He did that for a few years and then retired. Happy guy.

[Morning Glory]

By far, I like taking vacation most in 1 day increments.  Long vacations only make me miserable when I get back (the longer I'm not at work, the harder it is to return).  One day breaks spread out seem like the best balance.  My goal for 2022 is to use 30 vacations days to help make the year more tolerable.  I want to always be within reach of a 3 day weekend.  I fortunately earn 27 vacation days/year, and I will have around 28 days already saved up by year end.  My employer recognizes only 6 holidays per year, but that plus 30 days I voluntarily use will get me on average 3 days off per month.

I had a colleague who swears by taking nearly all Wednesdays off. He liked having a mini weekend surrounded by two day mini work weeks. He did that for a few years and then retired. Happy guy.

When I did 12s I hated to do three in a row. Two wasn't that bad. I liked as couple days off in between though.

[JJ-]

By far, I like taking vacation most in 1 day increments.  Long vacations only make me miserable when I get back (the longer I'm not at work, the harder it is to return).  One day breaks spread out seem like the best balance.  My goal for 2022 is to use 30 vacations days to help make the year more tolerable.  I want to always be within reach of a 3 day weekend.  I fortunately earn 27 vacation days/year, and I will have around 28 days already saved up by year end.  My employer recognizes only 6 holidays per year, but that plus 30 days I voluntarily use will get me on average 3 days off per month.

I had a colleague who swears by taking nearly all Wednesdays off. He liked having a mini weekend surrounded by two day mini work weeks. He did that for a few years and then retired. Happy guy.

When I did 12s I hated to do three in a row. Two wasn't that bad. I liked as couple days off in between though.

I can see how 12 hour days successively could be tough. He did 9-10 hour days and those are a bit more tolerable.

[henramdrea]

By far, I like taking vacation most in 1 day increments.  Long vacations only make me miserable when I get back (the longer I'm not at work, the harder it is to return).  One day breaks spread out seem like the best balance.  My goal for 2022 is to use 30 vacations days to help make the year more tolerable.  I want to always be within reach of a 3 day weekend.  I fortunately earn 27 vacation days/year, and I will have around 28 days already saved up by year end.  My employer recognizes only 6 holidays per year, but that plus 30 days I voluntarily use will get me on average 3 days off per month.

I work 4 10hr days with every Friday off.  I wouldn't have it any other way.  I'll occasionally take a Thursday off and it feels great to have only 3 days of work and then look forward to 4 off.  I think that's what I'd like to do on a more permanent basis, have these mini-vacations instead of the longer ones I end up "paying for"  when I return to work.

I had a colleague who swears by taking nearly all Wednesdays off. He liked having a mini weekend surrounded by two day mini work weeks. He did that for a few years and then retired. Happy guy.

When I did 12s I hated to do three in a row. Two wasn't that bad. I liked as couple days off in between though.

I can see how 12 hour days successively could be tough. He did 9-10 hour days and those are a bit more tolerable.

[Affable Bear]

Here in the UK employers have to provide a minimum of 20 days, on top of that we have 8 bank holidays every year so the least any person can have off in a year would be 28 days. Many employers offer more than this though if you have a decent job, in the past I have had as many as 33 days a year plus 8 days bank holidays it was pretty insane!! I only stayed there for 18 months but I remember the 3 months up to Christmas booking 2 days off a week every week in the run up, I can tell you it was an amazing Christmas I could thoroughly enjoy with family and friends but it was hard coming back to work :( 

I am not sure how I could manage if I only had 10 days or even less every year but I guess you get in the swing of things and I think some jobs pay slightly higher in the States as opposed to here in the UK (might be wrong?). I would definitely be more picky about who I worked for though, the job satisfaction would have to be high to spend that much time every year working.

[Metalcat]

Here in the UK employers have to provide a minimum of 20 days, on top of that we have 8 bank holidays every year so the least any person can have off in a year would be 28 days. Many employers offer more than this though if you have a decent job, in the past I have had as many as 33 days a year plus 8 days bank holidays it was pretty insane!! I only stayed there for 18 months but I remember the 3 months up to Christmas booking 2 days off a week every week in the run up, I can tell you it was an amazing Christmas I could thoroughly enjoy with family and friends but it was hard coming back to work :( 

I am not sure how I could manage if I only had 10 days or even less every year but I guess you get in the swing of things and I think some jobs pay slightly higher in the States as opposed to here in the UK (might be wrong?). I would definitely be more picky about who I worked for though, the job satisfaction would have to be high to spend that much time every year working.

When it's the norm, it's the norm. People just get used to the norm.
It's also the apparently to burn out and hate your job/employer, so there's that too.

[Steeze]

Definitely depends on the employer.

I get the standard bank holidays plus 17 days (started at 15 days 7 years ago, got +2 at 5 yrs). DW gets the bank holidays plus 30 days.

I also work 50-60 hrs a week, and occasionally have to work early in the morning, overnight, or on weekends. DW works 9-5 and gets an hour lunch. With Covid WFH and all, she also gets an additional 2 hrs a day off, so she is essentially working 5x5hrs a week from home. I have that many hours in by Tuesday some weeks.

Her health insurance costs our family $300/mo. has an out of pocket max of $2400, and works in-network in any state in the country. I just looked into health insurance through my employer, it would be $1200/mo with $4000 OOP max and only has in-network options in NYC, out of network is not covered at all. The cheaper silver plan option is still $1000/mo with a deductible around $7000 ea. and OOP at $17000.

Her 401k has 0.01% fees, my 401k has 1-2% fees.

And on and on.

My employer says, "You can't compare our benefits to a giant corporation" .... Uh, yes I can. I do it all the time. I'm doing it right now. Sure my wife's salary is a bit less, but her hourly wage is off the charts compared to mine.

Grass is always greener and all of that.

[dougules]

Here in the UK employers have to provide a minimum of 20 days, on top of that we have 8 bank holidays every year so the least any person can have off in a year would be 28 days. Many employers offer more than this though if you have a decent job, in the past I have had as many as 33 days a year plus 8 days bank holidays it was pretty insane!! I only stayed there for 18 months but I remember the 3 months up to Christmas booking 2 days off a week every week in the run up, I can tell you it was an amazing Christmas I could thoroughly enjoy with family and friends but it was hard coming back to work :( 

I am not sure how I could manage if I only had 10 days or even less every year but I guess you get in the swing of things and I think some jobs pay slightly higher in the States as opposed to here in the UK (might be wrong?). I would definitely be more picky about who I worked for though, the job satisfaction would have to be high to spend that much time every year working.

Do you remember the Puritans and Oliver Cromwell and all that from your English history?  They're still alive and kickin' over here on this side of the Atlantic.  Idle hands are the devil's workshop. 

[mm1970]

Here in the UK employers have to provide a minimum of 20 days, on top of that we have 8 bank holidays every year so the least any person can have off in a year would be 28 days. Many employers offer more than this though if you have a decent job, in the past I have had as many as 33 days a year plus 8 days bank holidays it was pretty insane!! I only stayed there for 18 months but I remember the 3 months up to Christmas booking 2 days off a week every week in the run up, I can tell you it was an amazing Christmas I could thoroughly enjoy with family and friends but it was hard coming back to work :( 

I am not sure how I could manage if I only had 10 days or even less every year but I guess you get in the swing of things and I think some jobs pay slightly higher in the States as opposed to here in the UK (might be wrong?). I would definitely be more picky about who I worked for though, the job satisfaction would have to be high to spend that much time every year working.

When it's the norm, it's the norm. People just get used to the norm.
It's also the apparently to burn out and hate your job/employer, so there's that too.

About 6-7 years ago, I was terribly unhappy with my job and boss, so I started job-hunting.  I interviewed at two places.  The second place - well, I didn't intend for it to be an interview, I just wanted to stop by and chat with the folks, but they ended up offering me a job on the spot.

The HR manager was married to the General manager...and she went over the offer with "well, it will be a paycut for you, and we offer 5 vacation days, 5 sick days, and 9 holidays".  This was followed by "we have a really hard time hiring people like you..."  Meaning, middle-aged, middle to senior experience.  Well, duh.  We are older, we know what we are doing, and we are parents.  I was 44 years old, and I earned 34 days of PTO a year, and you want me to go to 19?  That's a hard pass.

They struggled for awhile.  They eventually got bought out.  Parent company built a new facility for them.  The folks there got partially pushed out, and the new people hired their buddies...that new facility was shut down and sold off.

[ardrum]

I have decided I will make it my goal to use 36 days of PTO in 2022 (I usually use 20-24).  I get 27/year currently, and I will have about 29 saved up by the end of 2021, so I'd still have ~20 days left by the end of 2022 (27+29-36).  I am hoping by that point I will be in striking distance of FI and can continue to "overuse" PTO until I can quit. 

While it would be nice to sell it all upon leaving, I am finding it is more valuable used in this way to give me more mental rest breaks from month to month.

[dougules]

@dodojojo, how are things going?

[dodojojo]

@dougules
I have my first therapist appointment tomorrow. I'm a little wary as our initial call wasn't great but there seems to be a run on therapy and the list I was given of therapists--this one was the only one accepting new patients.  I figure if my initial impressions prove true, I don't have to have a second session.

The work situation is still up in the air. Not much to report as this week has been very quiet. I feel like I've jinxed myself just by writing that...A good friend has made an accountability pact with me as we have agreed to apply to at least two jobs a week over the next month--with consequences if we do not met our metrics.  And my friend has warned me when she commits to something, she always follow through.  I know her--I believe it. She's not desperate to leave her job but her company was bought out and she's looking around.  Primarily, though, she thinks this is a way to goad me to just get the job hunting process going. Just get over the job search mental block.  Actually, I've got to get going as I need to review some resume tips...

I'm following your thread over in Ask...

[Affable Bear]

Here in the UK employers have to provide a minimum of 20 days, on top of that we have 8 bank holidays every year so the least any person can have off in a year would be 28 days. Many employers offer more than this though if you have a decent job, in the past I have had as many as 33 days a year plus 8 days bank holidays it was pretty insane!! I only stayed there for 18 months but I remember the 3 months up to Christmas booking 2 days off a week every week in the run up, I can tell you it was an amazing Christmas I could thoroughly enjoy with family and friends but it was hard coming back to work :( 

I am not sure how I could manage if I only had 10 days or even less every year but I guess you get in the swing of things and I think some jobs pay slightly higher in the States as opposed to here in the UK (might be wrong?). I would definitely be more picky about who I worked for though, the job satisfaction would have to be high to spend that much time every year working.

Do you remember the Puritans and Oliver Cromwell and all that from your English history?  They're still alive and kickin' over here on this side of the Atlantic.  Idle hands are the devil's workshop.

Haha it certainly wasn’t easy in the past! I am not necessarily against working longer hours especially if the role is stimulating/challenging or something I am passionate about. I have worked 60+ hours a week on challenging projects and even though there was some burnout at the end you do get a sense of achievement at the end of it (sometimes a career boost). I have also worked mindless jobs which haven’t been particularly challenging or stressful and bizarrely I have found these jobs to be worse than when I am stressed or challenged, even if they have better pay/benefits! I think there is definitely a perfect balance to be had between overworked and burnout and having an extremely low stress job that is simply boring.

I think the perfect balance is to be very slightly overworked/challenged but not to the point where the world is on your shoulders (this can be a trip down Alices rabbit hole though if you aren't careful).

It is hard to say, I think as Mustachians we have a naturally built in engine which powers us to be productive in all aspects of our lives including whilst we are working. Many of us would probably prefer more free time (who wouldnt) we are equally driven to push ourselves and I think this can naturally lead to burnout especially if you are rewarded monetarily (how many years would this knock off the retirement date?).

Maybe a question worth thinking about 'is this extra stress worth reaching my goal slightly quicker?'

 

[Metalcat]

Here in the UK employers have to provide a minimum of 20 days, on top of that we have 8 bank holidays every year so the least any person can have off in a year would be 28 days. Many employers offer more than this though if you have a decent job, in the past I have had as many as 33 days a year plus 8 days bank holidays it was pretty insane!! I only stayed there for 18 months but I remember the 3 months up to Christmas booking 2 days off a week every week in the run up, I can tell you it was an amazing Christmas I could thoroughly enjoy with family and friends but it was hard coming back to work :( 

I am not sure how I could manage if I only had 10 days or even less every year but I guess you get in the swing of things and I think some jobs pay slightly higher in the States as opposed to here in the UK (might be wrong?). I would definitely be more picky about who I worked for though, the job satisfaction would have to be high to spend that much time every year working.

Do you remember the Puritans and Oliver Cromwell and all that from your English history?  They're still alive and kickin' over here on this side of the Atlantic.  Idle hands are the devil's workshop.

Haha it certainly wasn’t easy in the past! I am not necessarily against working longer hours especially if the role is stimulating/challenging or something I am passionate about. I have worked 60+ hours a week on challenging projects and even though there was some burnout at the end you do get a sense of achievement at the end of it (sometimes a career boost). I have also worked mindless jobs which haven’t been particularly challenging or stressful and bizarrely I have found these jobs to be worse than when I am stressed or challenged, even if they have better pay/benefits! I think there is definitely a perfect balance to be had between overworked and burnout and having an extremely low stress job that is simply boring.

I think the perfect balance is to be very slightly overworked/challenged but not to the point where the world is on your shoulders (this can be a trip down Alices rabbit hole though if you aren't careful).

It is hard to say, I think as Mustachians we have a naturally built in engine which powers us to be productive in all aspects of our lives including whilst we are working. Many of us would probably prefer more free time (who wouldnt) we are equally driven to push ourselves and I think this can naturally lead to burnout especially if you are rewarded monetarily (how many years would this knock off the retirement date?).

Maybe a question worth thinking about 'is this extra stress worth reaching my goal slightly quicker?'

You're missing an element.

There are two types of stress, healthy stress and unhealthy stress.
Burnout tends to come from unhealthy stress.

Also, burnout doesn't just come from a job alone, no one burns out from work alone, they burnout from the combination of tolls in their life.

So yes, a 60-80 hour, high pressure job where there is little to no negative stress (excellent boss, lots of autonomy, fair outcomes for effort, etc), may be totally enjoyable, and if the person doesn't have kids, and has a spouse that picks up the slack at home, and is totally understanding, then that person may be highly stressed by their high pressure, high reward work.

The same job may be crushing to someone who is never getting enough time with their family or friends, who feels they can't stay on top of their nutrition, and never exercises, and is steadily experiencing more wear and tear from the overload. The job may not directly provide negative stress, but the life overload does.

Another job might be fewer hours, still interesting and challenging but less demanding. However, it has a toxic work environment, this job has very manageable positive stress, but unbearable negative stress.

Then there's the boring job. It has no positive stress, no satisfaction and meaning, but the constant boredom itself is a negative stress. So it may not have extreme negative stress, but it *only* has negative stress.

So yes, it is something to consider, but you have to consider the whole picture. It's not a case of stressful jobs vs non stressful jobs. It's more dynamic than that.

I personally do well in extremely high good stress jobs, and I can handle highly toxic environments, as long as I have near total.autonomy and a mandate to try and fix the toxicity. I have an enormous capacity for burden, but a near zero capacity for a toxic or ineffectual management structure.

I know this about myself, so I know what kind of challenges to take on and what kind to avoid.

[Affable Bear]

Here in the UK employers have to provide a minimum of 20 days, on top of that we have 8 bank holidays every year so the least any person can have off in a year would be 28 days. Many employers offer more than this though if you have a decent job, in the past I have had as many as 33 days a year plus 8 days bank holidays it was pretty insane!! I only stayed there for 18 months but I remember the 3 months up to Christmas booking 2 days off a week every week in the run up, I can tell you it was an amazing Christmas I could thoroughly enjoy with family and friends but it was hard coming back to work :( 

I am not sure how I could manage if I only had 10 days or even less every year but I guess you get in the swing of things and I think some jobs pay slightly higher in the States as opposed to here in the UK (might be wrong?). I would definitely be more picky about who I worked for though, the job satisfaction would have to be high to spend that much time every year working.

Do you remember the Puritans and Oliver Cromwell and all that from your English history?  They're still alive and kickin' over here on this side of the Atlantic.  Idle hands are the devil's workshop.

Haha it certainly wasn’t easy in the past! I am not necessarily against working longer hours especially if the role is stimulating/challenging or something I am passionate about. I have worked 60+ hours a week on challenging projects and even though there was some burnout at the end you do get a sense of achievement at the end of it (sometimes a career boost). I have also worked mindless jobs which haven’t been particularly challenging or stressful and bizarrely I have found these jobs to be worse than when I am stressed or challenged, even if they have better pay/benefits! I think there is definitely a perfect balance to be had between overworked and burnout and having an extremely low stress job that is simply boring.

I think the perfect balance is to be very slightly overworked/challenged but not to the point where the world is on your shoulders (this can be a trip down Alices rabbit hole though if you aren't careful).

It is hard to say, I think as Mustachians we have a naturally built in engine which powers us to be productive in all aspects of our lives including whilst we are working. Many of us would probably prefer more free time (who wouldnt) we are equally driven to push ourselves and I think this can naturally lead to burnout especially if you are rewarded monetarily (how many years would this knock off the retirement date?).

Maybe a question worth thinking about 'is this extra stress worth reaching my goal slightly quicker?'

You're missing an element.

There are two types of stress, healthy stress and unhealthy stress.
Burnout tends to come from unhealthy stress.

Also, burnout doesn't just come from a job alone, no one burns out from work alone, they burnout from the combination of tolls in their life.

So yes, a 60-80 hour, high pressure job where there is little to no negative stress (excellent boss, lots of autonomy, fair outcomes for effort, etc), may be totally enjoyable, and if the person doesn't have kids, and has a spouse that picks up the slack at home, and is totally understanding, then that person may be highly stressed by their high pressure, high reward work.

The same job may be crushing to someone who is never getting enough time with their family or friends, who feels they can't stay on top of their nutrition, and never exercises, and is steadily experiencing more wear and tear from the overload. The job may not directly provide negative stress, but the life overload does.

Another job might be fewer hours, still interesting and challenging but less demanding. However, it has a toxic work environment, this job has very manageable positive stress, but unbearable negative stress.

Then there's the boring job. It has no positive stress, no satisfaction and meaning, but the constant boredom itself is a negative stress. So it may not have extreme negative stress, but it *only* has negative stress.

So yes, it is something to consider, but you have to consider the whole picture. It's not a case of stressful jobs vs non stressful jobs. It's more dynamic than that.

I personally do well in extremely high good stress jobs, and I can handle highly toxic environments, as long as I have near total.autonomy and a mandate to try and fix the toxicity. I have an enormous capacity for burden, but a near zero capacity for a toxic or ineffectual management structure.

I know this about myself, so I know what kind of challenges to take on and what kind to avoid.

This is very true, I guess I am missing the wider picture (and nuances) as we dont have any children and generally our home life hasnt been a source of stress (yet!), I think I am taking our current position a little for granted although we are hoping to change that in the next few years!

I have never stopped to think that stress can be positive or negative before, I guess I haven't really thought about it directly only that I am not satisified here I will move on to something new.

[Metalcat]

This is very true, I guess I am missing the wider picture (and nuances) as we dont have any children and generally our home life hasnt been a source of stress (yet!), I think I am taking our current position a little for granted although we are hoping to change that in the next few years!

I have never stopped to think that stress can be positive or negative before, I guess I haven't really thought about it directly only that I am not satisified here I will move on to something new.

It's called eustress and distress if you want to read more about it, although it's a pretty simple concept.

An excessively easy life does not equal a good life, people need to be challenged to thrive.

What's even more nuanced is that people need *both* eustress and distress, but it's the process of overcoming distress that's important. Ongoing, sustained distress that never gets dealt with is toxic and damaging. Like that of working for years in a toxic environment.

Your life may overall have too little challenge, which is causing chronic, low level distress, which is why it's unsustainable, and you have to eventually do something about it.

[Affable Bear]

This is very true, I guess I am missing the wider picture (and nuances) as we dont have any children and generally our home life hasnt been a source of stress (yet!), I think I am taking our current position a little for granted although we are hoping to change that in the next few years!

I have never stopped to think that stress can be positive or negative before, I guess I haven't really thought about it directly only that I am not satisified here I will move on to something new.

It's called eustress and distress if you want to read more about it, although it's a pretty simple concept.

An excessively easy life does not equal a good life, people need to be challenged to thrive.

What's even more nuanced is that people need *both* eustress and distress, but it's the process of overcoming distress that's important. Ongoing, sustained distress that never gets dealt with is toxic and damaging. Like that of working for years in a toxic environment.

Your life may overall have too little challenge, which is causing chronic, low level distress, which is why it's unsustainable, and you have to eventually do something about it.

I think I have a new topic I can read up on tomorrow morning, at the moment we don’t have a lot of personal challenges in our life as we have been so focussed on building a career since we graduated, its like our heads have been down sprinting on a 100m track.  Sadly our personal life (whilst definitely not bad in any sense of the word) has been too easy to neglect in regards to positive challenges. Having stumbled across MMM about 18 months ago me and my partner have enjoyed changing habits and challenging ourselves to reduce the amount of stupid in our lives.

The next step is parenthood for us but at this moment in time there is a bit of 'idleness' settling in, maybe its time to shake it up a bit!

[2sk22]

A nice article about the effects of burnout.

A bit from this article stood out:

Tired of my inability to control basic choices that I knew would improve my lifestyle, like my volume of meetings. Tired of 7 hours of Zoom a day, only to try to cram more work in in the evening, to no avail. Tired of unnecessary drama at work - drama for the sake of drama. I was floundering.

Despite its many other benefits, I'm not sure if work-from-home is helping much with dealing with burnout.

[Metalcat]

A nice article about the effects of burnout.

A bit from this article stood out:

Tired of my inability to control basic choices that I knew would improve my lifestyle, like my volume of meetings. Tired of 7 hours of Zoom a day, only to try to cram more work in in the evening, to no avail. Tired of unnecessary drama at work - drama for the sake of drama. I was floundering.

Despite its many other benefits, I'm not sure if work-from-home is helping much with dealing with burnout.

I think for some people in some roles working from home dramatically improves quality of life and reduces burnout, and for others it worsens it.

I suspect this largely depends on how equipped their management is at managing remote employees effectively.

[mm1970]

A nice article about the effects of burnout.

A bit from this article stood out:

Tired of my inability to control basic choices that I knew would improve my lifestyle, like my volume of meetings. Tired of 7 hours of Zoom a day, only to try to cram more work in in the evening, to no avail. Tired of unnecessary drama at work - drama for the sake of drama. I was floundering.

Despite its many other benefits, I'm not sure if work-from-home is helping much with dealing with burnout.

I think for some people in some roles working from home dramatically improves quality of life and reduces burnout, and for others it worsens it.

I suspect this largely depends on how equipped their management is at managing remote employees effectively.

Yep, jury still out on it for me.  Of course, I have kids to deal with too.

Right now, week 2 of school back in session, and still working from home.  I love LOVE not driving to work and commuting.  I can really FOCUS on my work.  I can make lunch. 

But but but...sometimes it's hard to get people to answer you remotely.  That's a stressor.  And the other thing - there's no "separation", like during at work times.  When I leave work, I'd be stressed, and my fingers would turn white on the way home.  But when I was at home, work was done.

Now, my "office" is a laptop and computer screen in one of two rooms in my tiny house.  There's no separation.  I have to purposefully turn off the computer and quit.  And that can be hard to do when half my job deals with Asia, and they are getting started at 4pm.  Often I end up working until 7 pm, and that sucks if I start at 9 am.

[dougules]

A nice article about the effects of burnout.

A bit from this article stood out:

Tired of my inability to control basic choices that I knew would improve my lifestyle, like my volume of meetings. Tired of 7 hours of Zoom a day, only to try to cram more work in in the evening, to no avail. Tired of unnecessary drama at work - drama for the sake of drama. I was floundering.

Despite its many other benefits, I'm not sure if work-from-home is helping much with dealing with burnout.

I think for some people in some roles working from home dramatically improves quality of life and reduces burnout, and for others it worsens it.

I suspect this largely depends on how equipped their management is at managing remote employees effectively.

I think it also depends on the personality type.  DH loves it.  I kind of enjoy it, but after a while I feel like I'm out of touch, and it also plays on some of my insecurities.  I'm also an ambivert while he's totally an introvert. 

ETA:  I think it also depends on the specific your specific job function. 

[dougules]

Does anyone think that the pandemic has somehow led to more burnout?  It seems like there are more threads than ever about burnout here, but that just may be bias based on where I'm at personally.  One of my coworkers did mention he'd read some statistic that a significant portion of the workforce had quit this year and had no immediate plans to jump back into the labor force. 

[Metalcat]

A nice article about the effects of burnout.

A bit from this article stood out:

Tired of my inability to control basic choices that I knew would improve my lifestyle, like my volume of meetings. Tired of 7 hours of Zoom a day, only to try to cram more work in in the evening, to no avail. Tired of unnecessary drama at work - drama for the sake of drama. I was floundering.

Despite its many other benefits, I'm not sure if work-from-home is helping much with dealing with burnout.

I think for some people in some roles working from home dramatically improves quality of life and reduces burnout, and for others it worsens it.

I suspect this largely depends on how equipped their management is at managing remote employees effectively.

I think it also depends on the personality type.  DH loves it.  I kind of enjoy it, but after a while I feel like I'm out of touch, and it also plays on some of my insecurities.  I'm also an ambivert while he's totally an introvert. 

ETA:  I think it also depends on the specific your specific job function.

Yep, it depends on a lot of factors, I only mentioned management previously because that is the single largest determining factor. Without a management that knows how to handle remote workers, even if they are suited for it and the work is suited for it, there's likely to be fallout.

[Metalcat]

Does anyone think that the pandemic has somehow led to more burnout?  It seems like there are more threads than ever about burnout here, but that just may be bias based on where I'm at personally.  One of my coworkers did mention he'd read some statistic that a significant portion of the workforce had quit this year and had no immediate plans to jump back into the labor force.

Of course, I would be shocked if it didn't.

Not only has it complicated many workplaces, it has disrupted many schools and childcare, and raised the overall baseline stress level of the entire world, while lessening access to stress mitigating activities, like spending enjoyable time with friends and family.

So yeah, I would be absolutely gobsmacked, shocked if it didn't contribute to a massive spike in burnout.

[dougules]

Does anyone think that the pandemic has somehow led to more burnout?  It seems like there are more threads than ever about burnout here, but that just may be bias based on where I'm at personally.  One of my coworkers did mention he'd read some statistic that a significant portion of the workforce had quit this year and had no immediate plans to jump back into the labor force.

Of course, I would be shocked if it didn't.

Not only has it complicated many workplaces, it has disrupted many schools and childcare, and raised the overall baseline stress level of the entire world, while lessening access to stress mitigating activities, like spending enjoyable time with friends and family.

So yeah, I would be absolutely gobsmacked, shocked if it didn't contribute to a massive spike in burnout.

It seems like in some ways that stress may be pushing changes that have been needing to happen for a long time.  DH is getting to work remotely, and there's really no reason he couldn't have been at least partially remote in 2019.  It drove me to the point I realized that things were not good and it forced me to see I need to make changes. 

[Metalcat]

Does anyone think that the pandemic has somehow led to more burnout?  It seems like there are more threads than ever about burnout here, but that just may be bias based on where I'm at personally.  One of my coworkers did mention he'd read some statistic that a significant portion of the workforce had quit this year and had no immediate plans to jump back into the labor force.

Of course, I would be shocked if it didn't.

Not only has it complicated many workplaces, it has disrupted many schools and childcare, and raised the overall baseline stress level of the entire world, while lessening access to stress mitigating activities, like spending enjoyable time with friends and family.

So yeah, I would be absolutely gobsmacked, shocked if it didn't contribute to a massive spike in burnout.

It seems like in some ways that stress may be pushing changes that have been needing to happen for a long time.  DH is getting to work remotely, and there's really no reason he couldn't have been at least partially remote in 2019.  It drove me to the point I realized that things were not good and it forced me to see I need to make changes.

Crises are always opportunity for innovation.

[9patch]

The pandemic did lead to burnout for me. I'm 48 and this never happened to me before. I think it was the combination of working from home (no work/life separation), virtual schooling, and caring for a disabled husband, and having no fun outlets (going for walks around the neighborhood got tiring after a while). I'm much better now, carving out time daily for nature and exercise, and letting housework and cooking meals go.

[MudPuppy]

I’m a bit earlier in my 30s but I had a realization in the middle of the night that I’m done. I’ll take a pretty noticeable pay cut and we’ll be solidly back under 100k household income again, but I don’t care anymore. Might stay with my employer, might not, but I’m updating my resume and I will be dipping from inpatient care as soon as someone makes me a decent offer. I do wonder how COVID affected this situation, but it’s not much use in dwelling on something that can’t be changed.

Turned in my 2 weeks today

[JJ-]

I’m a bit earlier in my 30s but I had a realization in the middle of the night that I’m done. I’ll take a pretty noticeable pay cut and we’ll be solidly back under 100k household income again, but I don’t care anymore. Might stay with my employer, might not, but I’m updating my resume and I will be dipping from inpatient care as soon as someone makes me a decent offer. I do wonder how COVID affected this situation, but it’s not much use in dwelling on something that can’t be changed.

Turned in my 2 weeks today

Well that didn't take long. Good on your for making the right choice for you.

[mspym]

I’m a bit earlier in my 30s but I had a realization in the middle of the night that I’m done. I’ll take a pretty noticeable pay cut and we’ll be solidly back under 100k household income again, but I don’t care anymore. Might stay with my employer, might not, but I’m updating my resume and I will be dipping from inpatient care as soon as someone makes me a decent offer. I do wonder how COVID affected this situation, but it’s not much use in dwelling on something that can’t be changed.

Turned in my 2 weeks today

Congratulations!

[lutorm]

Well, it took a while but it's approved! Next month, I'll be going down to 3-day weeks.

Could you post back here in 3 months, and let us know how that is working out for you? It's been a dream of mine for some time. But I've yet to put it into practice so would love to have some feedback from others.

So I'm coming up on 3 months of half-time. I have to say it's been great. I've been working M/T/half of W, and it's kind of like working a weekend and having the workweek free. It's been very refreshing to have some completely free time to do whatever I want while the kid's in preschool.

My manager has already asked twice if I don't want to go back to full time, which I've graciously declined. I did agree to work full time for 3 weeks starting last week, because we have a deadline coming up. Then I'll comp 3 weeks off after that instead (which worked out well because I was just wanting some time completely off to do some remodeling in the kitchen that will require us to move out for a week.) Have to say I can't wait for these 3 weeks to be over.

[MudPuppy]

Thanks! Turns out my resume landed near someone I had worked with on a project years back and they were stoked to take me. I got a spot as coordinator of occupational wellness for a large employer so hit me up for (among various other things) your physical, your flu shot, your nutrition and smoking cessation classes, and for any on-the-job injury or illness you may experience!

[Morning Glory]

Thanks! Turns out my resume landed near someone I had worked with on a project years back and they were stoked to take me. I got a spot as coordinator of occupational wellness for a large employer so hit me up for (among various other things) your physical, your flu shot, your nutrition and smoking cessation classes, and for any on-the-job injury or illness you may experience!

Congratulations!!!

[scantee]

I’m really at my limit now and know I need to make a change soon. In two weeks, I have a two week vacation when I’ll do some soul searching about what my next move should be.

My plan until recently was to stay in my current job through July 2022 to collect my bonus then either take six months off or make a pointed shift to contract consulting work. The benefit of that plan is purely financial as it would allow me to do some extra saving to allow for up to a year without work.

Now I’m not sure I can make it that long. My current plan is to get to the end of the year and assess the situation at that point. I’d like to ask for three months unpaid time off however if my work will not grant that I’ll have to quit.

Back at work after a 17-day break. The first week was a true vacation away from home, the second a staycation. One thing I confirmed during my staycation is that I could very happily be unemployed for an extended period without getting antsy. I drew up a long list of projects I wanted to work on that week and I maybe got through 20% of them. There just isn’t enough time in the week to do all of the things I want to do alongside a full-time job.

As far as the job, I know I need to be done in some way. That may entail finding a new job as I feel that I’ve done everything I can in my current position and it is time to move on to new challenges. Ideally moving to a new job will come with a break in employment. My current thinking is that I will ask for an unpaid leave of six months early next year to cover March through August. It’s unlikely they’ll grant me this but it is worth a shot. If I did get the sabbatical I would look for a new post with my current employer at its completion.

If they don’t grant me the sabbatical I’ll just quit, probably immediately with two weeks notice. That would give me a slightly longer leave of 7 to 8 months. I’ve started saving up extra cash to cover this. During my time off I’d see if I could get any consulting business established as that is my preferred long-term coast career.

So, I feel like I have a plan. I plan to have the sabbatical conversation with my manager in January so only four months from now! It feels good to at least know that it will not be this way forever and I have some extended time off to look forward to regardless of how I get there.

[Steeze]

I’m really at my limit now and know I need to make a change soon. In two weeks, I have a two week vacation when I’ll do some soul searching about what my next move should be.

My plan until recently was to stay in my current job through July 2022 to collect my bonus then either take six months off or make a pointed shift to contract consulting work. The benefit of that plan is purely financial as it would allow me to do some extra saving to allow for up to a year without work.

Now I’m not sure I can make it that long. My current plan is to get to the end of the year and assess the situation at that point. I’d like to ask for three months unpaid time off however if my work will not grant that I’ll have to quit.

Back at work after a 17-day break. The first week was a true vacation away from home, the second a staycation. One thing I confirmed during my staycation is that I could very happily be unemployed for an extended period without getting antsy. I drew up a long list of projects I wanted to work on that week and I maybe got through 20% of them. There just isn’t enough time in the week to do all of the things I want to do alongside a full-time job.

As far as the job, I know I need to be done in some way. That may entail finding a new job as I feel that I’ve done everything I can in my current position and it is time to move on to new challenges. Ideally moving to a new job will come with a break in employment. My current thinking is that I will ask for an unpaid leave of six months early next year to cover March through August. It’s unlikely they’ll grant me this but it is worth a shot. If I did get the sabbatical I would look for a new post with my current employer at its completion.

If they don’t grant me the sabbatical I’ll just quit, probably immediately with two weeks notice. That would give me a slightly longer leave of 7 to 8 months. I’ve started saving up extra cash to cover this. During my time off I’d see if I could get any consulting business established as that is my preferred long-term coast career.

So, I feel like I have a plan. I plan to have the sabbatical conversation with my manager in January so only four months from now! It feels good to at least know that it will not be this way forever and I have some extended time off to look forward to regardless of how I get there.

How close are you to being FI? (%)

[scantee]

How close are you to being FI? (%)

Not close enough (in my mind at least). I’m about 55% to my full FIRE amount. I’m past my coastFI amount and about 75% of my lean amount. Once I get to my lean amount I’ll feel more comfortable switching to part time or relying exclusively on consulting.

[Steeze]

How close are you to being FI? (%)

Not close enough (in my mind at least). I’m about 55% to my full FIRE amount. I’m past my coastFI amount and about 75% of my lean amount. Once I get to my lean amount I’ll feel more comfortable switching to part time or relying exclusively on consulting.

I feel you - I personally feel kind of trapped until I hit leanFI. Once I am leanFI then I can take some time and re-evaluate life. Shitty place to be (mentally), but the money is good, the job is easy, and taking a break early means extending the time to leanFI possibly years. I am about 45% FI and 55% leanFI right now. Can hit leanFI in 2024 if I can hack it until then. Just keep showing up, ignore the burnout!! haha. Hopefully I do not lose my mind.

[JJ-]

How close are you to being FI? (%)

Not close enough (in my mind at least). I’m about 55% to my full FIRE amount. I’m past my coastFI amount and about 75% of my lean amount. Once I get to my lean amount I’ll feel more comfortable switching to part time or relying exclusively on consulting.

I feel you - I personally feel kind of trapped until I hit leanFI. Once I am leanFI then I can take some time and re-evaluate life. Shitty place to be (mentally), but the money is good, the job is easy, and taking a break early means extending the time to leanFI possibly years. I am about 45% FI and 55% leanFI right now. Can hit leanFI in 2024 if I can hack it until then. Just keep showing up, ignore the burnout!! haha. Hopefully I do not lose my mind.

We are at 50-60% FI and the difference between one of us working full time the other part time versus both part time is about a year due to the market doing the majority of the remaining work.

When I made my request to go to 3/4 time, i had essentially decided that there were other things that were more important but I still needed to work. This helped put up some mental barriers against the things that were driving burn out. They got pushed over a bit at the beginning (i.e., weak barriers), but each time now I see a small or large decision come up that would push against the mental deal I made with myself, it's getting easier and easier to not be a pushover and stick with my barriers.

Sticking with it full time for years may not be in the best interest especially if it's driving burnout. This counts for you too, @scantee .

[Steeze]

How close are you to being FI? (%)

Not close enough (in my mind at least). I’m about 55% to my full FIRE amount. I’m past my coastFI amount and about 75% of my lean amount. Once I get to my lean amount I’ll feel more comfortable switching to part time or relying exclusively on consulting.

I feel you - I personally feel kind of trapped until I hit leanFI. Once I am leanFI then I can take some time and re-evaluate life. Shitty place to be (mentally), but the money is good, the job is easy, and taking a break early means extending the time to leanFI possibly years. I am about 45% FI and 55% leanFI right now. Can hit leanFI in 2024 if I can hack it until then. Just keep showing up, ignore the burnout!! haha. Hopefully I do not lose my mind.

We are at 50-60% FI and the difference between one of us working full time the other part time versus both part time is about a year due to the market doing the majority of the remaining work.

When I made my request to go to 3/4 time, i had essentially decided that there were other things that were more important but I still needed to work. This helped put up some mental barriers against the things that were driving burn out. They got pushed over a bit at the beginning (i.e., weak barriers), but each time now I see a small or large decision come up that would push against the mental deal I made with myself, it's getting easier and easier to not be a pushover and stick with my barriers.

Sticking with it full time for years may not be in the best interest especially if it's driving burnout. This counts for you too, @scantee .

DW just texted me to say that she intends to be a SAHP by Jan 1st. so ... leanFI just got extended until 2026. Trapped. I'll just plan on a full blown mid life crisis at 40 y.o. haha

[JJ-]

How close are you to being FI? (%)

Not close enough (in my mind at least). I’m about 55% to my full FIRE amount. I’m past my coastFI amount and about 75% of my lean amount. Once I get to my lean amount I’ll feel more comfortable switching to part time or relying exclusively on consulting.

I feel you - I personally feel kind of trapped until I hit leanFI. Once I am leanFI then I can take some time and re-evaluate life. Shitty place to be (mentally), but the money is good, the job is easy, and taking a break early means extending the time to leanFI possibly years. I am about 45% FI and 55% leanFI right now. Can hit leanFI in 2024 if I can hack it until then. Just keep showing up, ignore the burnout!! haha. Hopefully I do not lose my mind.

We are at 50-60% FI and the difference between one of us working full time the other part time versus both part time is about a year due to the market doing the majority of the remaining work.

When I made my request to go to 3/4 time, i had essentially decided that there were other things that were more important but I still needed to work. This helped put up some mental barriers against the things that were driving burn out. They got pushed over a bit at the beginning (i.e., weak barriers), but each time now I see a small or large decision come up that would push against the mental deal I made with myself, it's getting easier and easier to not be a pushover and stick with my barriers.

Sticking with it full time for years may not be in the best interest especially if it's driving burnout. This counts for you too, @scantee .

DW just texted me to say that she intends to be a SAHP by Jan 1st. so ... leanFI just got extended until 2026. Trapped. I'll just plan on a full blown mid life crisis at 40 y.o. haha

You're not trapped. Just think of the mounds of money you have and think about whether you would have more money or more mental health.