Feeling burned out. Anyone else?

[OtherJen]

^I find the issue is that the late 30s-early/mid 40s crowd are fucking dreadful with boundaries. In general, not just in terms of work. Maybe it's a Gen X/cusper millenial thing, younger millenials seem to be much better with this in the workplace.

That's exactly right. Many of us born in the mid-1970s through late 1980s (I'm in my early 40s) were taught to prioritize our future careers as the most important thing in life, even as children. It started with the careful scheduling of monitored and structured extracurriculars in elementary school, followed by the intense focus on grades and standardized tests in middle and high school, the loading of strategic extracurriculars to pad the college application, etc. We were never taught about work-life boundaries because, well, life was secondary to and entirely in service of work. I can only suspect that younger people watched us go through this process and said "Fuck this shit, I'm going to do what I want."

It's interesting to be on the other side of a total career-ending burnout. I've spent the last several years moving up in my new field as I recovered and recently took a management position with a small but growing company. Several weeks ago, I had to confess to the longest-standing manager that I needed to take measures to prevent another burnout because the self-imposed culture among the managers was becoming one of overwork and 24/7 connectedness (pandemic lockdowns are NOT helping). Then I asked the COO if I could switch from a schedule of 5 longer days to 6 shorter days (giving me more flex time during the week and an even stronger excuse to shut off all communications on my full day off). As the overwork culture wasn't coming from the top down, the COO had no problem with it and also told me to block off more time in my schedule for non-routine projects.

Fast-forward a few weeks. My productivity has actually improved, I've made progress on some interesting things and interacted with all of my supervisees (we work remotely), I'm getting better sleep and meals, and I stopped having panic attacks. Now the other managers are purposely setting communications-off days for themselves and increasing the proportion of unstructured deep/creative work time in their own schedules. It really does take one person to step up and set reasonable, rational boundaries (assuming that upper management is also reasonable and rational).

[OtherJen]

What isn't received well is push back and complaining, and this is where a lot of people don't know how to communicate and maintain boundaries effectively without treating it like conflict.

So people try to speak up, but frequently elicit a negative response and become convinced that it's the setting of boundaries that doesn't work as opposed to issues with the execution.

Setting and defending boundaries is a skill, like any other, but it's one that society doesn't teach us because we're MUCH more useful to other people when we don't have them. I say this as someone who used to be TERRIBLE with work boundaries, but now feel quite confident that I could stand my ground with basically any management, and that doing so wouldn't hurt me professionally at all.

Now I'm curious... what's a good way to do this? Any time I push back I get the negative response, but with the FU money I don't really care, and I don't seem to get any repercussions. They're still going to be mortified when I leave soon, but if there's a good way to couch these kinds of discussions, I'm all ears.

Grab yourself a good book on communicating boundaries. It really is a learned skill. And once I learned it, I actually got *more* respect in the workplace, not less.

The key is to never treat a boundary or respect like an unreasonable or exceptional thing to expect.

Sometimes presenting consequences helps. At my last research job, the one that tipped me over into full burnout, the lab director had a habit of emailing her employees in the wee small hours and expecting them to not only read but take action based on the emails by the following workday. One very early morning, she sent out an email at 1 am to me and the other postdoc, asking us to prepare certain materials for the 9 am lab meeting (yes, the one in 8 hours). The other postdoc was up, saw the email, and stayed up until 4 am creating the required slides. I was sound asleep and didn't see the email until I got to my office in daylight hours. When the director asked why I was unprepared, I responded that I would have been prepared had the email come in during normal business hours or even before 8 pm, as I did not normally stay up past 10 or 11 pm.

She didn't become any more rational in general, but she did stop emailing requests for immediate action at 1 am.

[Metalcat]

^I find the issue is that the late 30s-early/mid 40s crowd are fucking dreadful with boundaries. In general, not just in terms of work. Maybe it's a Gen X/cusper millenial thing, younger millenials seem to be much better with this in the workplace.

That's exactly right. Many of us born in the mid-1970s through late 1980s (I'm in my early 40s) were taught to prioritize our future careers as the most important thing in life, even as children. It started with the careful scheduling of monitored and structured extracurriculars in elementary school, followed by the intense focus on grades and standardized tests in middle and high school, the loading of strategic extracurriculars to pad the college application, etc. We were never taught about work-life boundaries because, well, life was secondary to and entirely in service of work. I can only suspect that younger people watched us go through this process and said "Fuck this shit, I'm going to do what I want."

It's interesting to be on the other side of a total career-ending burnout. I've spent the last several years moving up in my new field as I recovered and recently took a management position with a small but growing company. Several weeks ago, I had to confess to the longest-standing manager that I needed to take measures to prevent another burnout because the self-imposed culture among the managers was becoming one of overwork and 24/7 connectedness (pandemic lockdowns are NOT helping). Then I asked the COO if I could switch from a schedule of 5 longer days to 6 shorter days (giving me more flex time during the week and an even stronger excuse to shut off all communications on my full day off). As the overwork culture wasn't coming from the top down, the COO had no problem with it and also told me to block off more time in my schedule for non-routine projects.

Fast-forward a few weeks. My productivity has actually improved, I've made progress on some interesting things and interacted with all of my supervisees (we work remotely), I'm getting better sleep and meals, and I stopped having panic attacks. Now the other managers are purposely setting communications-off days for themselves and increasing the proportion of unstructured deep/creative work time in their own schedules. It really does take one person to step up and set reasonable, rational boundaries (assuming that upper management is also reasonable and rational).

The younger people not only saw us go through this, they saw that the promised payoff never happened. We never got as rich as the boomers, we never got the "secure" careers we were promised through hard work. We got a huge bait and switch and the younger folks watched it happen to us and said "fuck this, I'm not dying at my desk for an employer who will just have an underpaid janitor sweep me out so that the next cubicle monkey can hot-desk into my spot before the smell of death even dissipates."

[bbqbonelesswing]

What isn't received well is push back and complaining, and this is where a lot of people don't know how to communicate and maintain boundaries effectively without treating it like conflict.

So people try to speak up, but frequently elicit a negative response and become convinced that it's the setting of boundaries that doesn't work as opposed to issues with the execution.

Setting and defending boundaries is a skill, like any other, but it's one that society doesn't teach us because we're MUCH more useful to other people when we don't have them. I say this as someone who used to be TERRIBLE with work boundaries, but now feel quite confident that I could stand my ground with basically any management, and that doing so wouldn't hurt me professionally at all.

Now I'm curious... what's a good way to do this? Any time I push back I get the negative response, but with the FU money I don't really care, and I don't seem to get any repercussions. They're still going to be mortified when I leave soon, but if there's a good way to couch these kinds of discussions, I'm all ears.

Grab yourself a good book on communicating boundaries. It really is a learned skill. And once I learned it, I actually got *more* respect in the workplace, not less.

The key is to never treat a boundary or respect like an unreasonable or exceptional thing to expect.

Sometimes presenting consequences helps. At my last research job, the one that tipped me over into full burnout, the lab director had a habit of emailing her employees in the wee small hours and expecting them to not only read but take action based on the emails by the following workday. One very early morning, she sent out an email at 1 am to me and the other postdoc, asking us to prepare certain materials for the 9 am lab meeting (yes, the one in 8 hours). The other postdoc was up, saw the email, and stayed up until 4 am creating the required slides. I was sound asleep and didn't see the email until I got to my office in daylight hours. When the director asked why I was unprepared, I responded that I would have been prepared had the email come in during normal business hours or even before 8 pm, as I did not normally stay up past 10 or 11 pm.

She didn't become any more rational in general, but she did stop emailing requests for immediate action at 1 am.

That's how you've gotta do it. I set expectations both internally and with customers that I will work during work hours. If I'm supposed to be answering emails in the middle of the night, someone please tell me, so I can find another job.

Before I learned how to set expectations, I was working all the time and way over 40 hours/week. You know what? Since dialing it back I haven't missed a raise, a promotion, or received any negative feedback. It's gone a long way towards staving off burnout.

[GuitarStv]

The younger people not only saw us go through this, they saw that the promised payoff never happened. We never got as rich as the boomers, we never got the "secure" careers we were promised through hard work. We got a huge bait and switch and the younger folks watched it happen to us and said "fuck this, I'm not dying at my desk for an employer who will just have an underpaid janitor sweep me out so that the next cubicle monkey can hot-desk into my spot before the smell of death even dissipates."

That new cubicle fresh death smell is the payoff!  That and the slightly better obstructed view of the office window . . .

[Plina]

What isn't received well is push back and complaining, and this is where a lot of people don't know how to communicate and maintain boundaries effectively without treating it like conflict.

So people try to speak up, but frequently elicit a negative response and become convinced that it's the setting of boundaries that doesn't work as opposed to issues with the execution.

Setting and defending boundaries is a skill, like any other, but it's one that society doesn't teach us because we're MUCH more useful to other people when we don't have them. I say this as someone who used to be TERRIBLE with work boundaries, but now feel quite confident that I could stand my ground with basically any management, and that doing so wouldn't hurt me professionally at all.

Now I'm curious... what's a good way to do this? Any time I push back I get the negative response, but with the FU money I don't really care, and I don't seem to get any repercussions. They're still going to be mortified when I leave soon, but if there's a good way to couch these kinds of discussions, I'm all ears.

Grab yourself a good book on communicating boundaries. It really is a learned skill. And once I learned it, I actually got *more* respect in the workplace, not less.

The key is to never treat a boundary or respect like an unreasonable or exceptional thing to expect.

Sometimes presenting consequences helps. At my last research job, the one that tipped me over into full burnout, the lab director had a habit of emailing her employees in the wee small hours and expecting them to not only read but take action based on the emails by the following workday. One very early morning, she sent out an email at 1 am to me and the other postdoc, asking us to prepare certain materials for the 9 am lab meeting (yes, the one in 8 hours). The other postdoc was up, saw the email, and stayed up until 4 am creating the required slides. I was sound asleep and didn't see the email until I got to my office in daylight hours. When the director asked why I was unprepared, I responded that I would have been prepared had the email come in during normal business hours or even before 8 pm, as I did not normally stay up past 10 or 11 pm.

She didn't become any more rational in general, but she did stop emailing requests for immediate action at 1 am.

That's how you've gotta do it. I set expectations both internally and with customers that I will work during work hours. If I'm supposed to be answering emails in the middle of the night, someone please tell me, so I can find another job.

Before I learned how to set expectations, I was working all the time and way over 40 hours/week. You know what? Since dialing it back I haven't missed a raise, a promotion, or received any negative feedback. It's gone a long way towards staving off burnout.

I think this is really important. Even if I check my email, I normally don’t email customers or colleagues after work hours. I am currently working in a project with a lot of people involved and the customers work all hours as it is in m&a. I normally start early and try to finish early but this led me to work really long hours so now for the duration of the project I have adapted to client hours, i.e I start late in the morning and take my free time during the morning. I take longer lunch breaks as well as finish at 3 or 4 pm to take a break before the evening shift. I reach my billable hours instead of doubling then as in the beginning. I am a lot happier.

I took a sabbatical two years ago at 37 to travel in Asia and to ponder what I wanted to do my life. I like my field and I am fairly well paid but I didn’t like my boss. I decided to stick out the app 10 years in my field before fire. What saving towards the sabbatical learned me was how nice it was to be independent of your work and how much I could actually save.

A couple years before my sabbatical I learned through some colleagues that got burned out the importance to set boundaires. My treshold is pretty high but I  made perfectly clear during the interview for my current job that I was not interested in work as a subsitute for a life. My boss also knows that I quit my previous job because my previous boss asked me to do something I found etically wrong. The funny thing is that she respect that and thinks that I have a really low treshhold regarding security. Actually, the opposit is true. I have the means to live several years without working and had considered my options thoroughly and left with a pot of money because my previous boss thought I was worried about my financials and she thought that was the only way to get rid of me. Luckily, I didn’t email her my resignation before I found out the she wanted to get rid of me because that led me to leave with a pot of money instead of it costing me money.

My new boss appreciates my opinions even though I guess those also sometimes frustrate her. My point is that you have to set your own boundaries, because no one else will do. It takes some time and you will sometimes fail to do it and sometimes make exceptions. I am constantly pushing back in issues I find important. I have also learned that not every issue is worth your time. I think that have been the hardest lesson for an overachiever as I. If I want to limit my work time and energy I can’t fight every battle.

So my advice would be to figure out if you like your job and if that is the case what can you do to reduce the stress. If you don’t like your job, I would try to figure out what aspects you enjoy and thereafter figure out if you need to change career or just workplace or direction.

[E.T.]

^I find the issue is that the late 30s-early/mid 40s crowd are fucking dreadful with boundaries. In general, not just in terms of work. Maybe it's a Gen X/cusper millenial thing, younger millenials seem to be much better with this in the workplace.
...

Apparently I'm living up to my alien ways because I burned out last year at 31 and the pressure was entirely internal. I was great at standing up to external pressure to take on more work / work more hours but I was not good at separating myself from my work. I worked in a field I really cared about and the consequences of a mistake could injure or kill someone so I worked really hard to make sure that wouldn't happen. Unfortunately, I realized that a career with that high of stakes was not for me as I was unable to set boundaries with myself on when my work was "good enough". I was really good at my job and fought to protect people but I was not able to keep myself healthy at the same time. I went through therapy and talked to a career coach and they helped me realize that I needed to switch fields. Just putting this out there in case anyone else is struggling with something similar, burnout can happen if you don't have good boundaries with yourself as well.

[Metalcat]

^I find the issue is that the late 30s-early/mid 40s crowd are fucking dreadful with boundaries. In general, not just in terms of work. Maybe it's a Gen X/cusper millenial thing, younger millenials seem to be much better with this in the workplace.
...

Apparently I'm living up to my alien ways because I burned out last year at 31 and the pressure was entirely internal. I was great at standing up to external pressure to take on more work / work more hours but I was not good at separating myself from my work. I worked in a field I really cared about and the consequences of a mistake could injure or kill someone so I worked really hard to make sure that wouldn't happen. Unfortunately, I realized that a career with that high of stakes was not for me as I was unable to set boundaries with myself on when my work was "good enough". I was really good at my job and fought to protect people but I was not able to keep myself healthy at the same time. I went through therapy and talked to a career coach and they helped me realize that I needed to switch fields. Just putting this out there in case anyone else is struggling with something similar, burnout can happen if you don't have good boundaries with yourself as well.

You bring up a good point. Most people don't lack boundaries just because they are unable to enforce what they know they shouldn't be doing. That's one very, very limited version.

What's more common and insidious is just not *having* those boundaries in the first place.

This was also my problem as well. I've never, ever had a problem standing up to people, my problem was not feeling like everything was my responsibility.

My former boss knew this about me, she didn't directly push me to work harder than I could handle, she threatened the well being of my staff and indirectly triggered me to feel the need to protect them and my patients.

My lack of boundaries was also 100% internal because I haven't been intimidated standing up to someone since before I got my first period.

[amberfocus]

Those of us who burnout do so because of a series of LEARNED patterns of behaviour that set us up to burnout, namely a value system where we consider our personal well being to be a resource worth sacrificing for the desired outcomes of our superiors.

This was so profound, it hit me like a gut punch. It was exactly what I needed to read last night, the day before I finally gave notice at work. Thank you.

[Metalcat]

Those of us who burnout do so because of a series of LEARNED patterns of behaviour that set us up to burnout, namely a value system where we consider our personal well being to be a resource worth sacrificing for the desired outcomes of our superiors.

This was so profound, it hit me like a gut punch. It was exactly what I needed to read last night, the day before I finally gave notice at work. Thank you.

Any time my friend.

When you see it, you can't unsee it, right?

[Poeirenta]

Those of us who burnout do so because of a series of LEARNED patterns of behaviour that set us up to burnout, namely a value system where we consider our personal well being to be a resource worth sacrificing for the desired outcomes of our superiors.

This was so profound, it hit me like a gut punch. It was exactly what I needed to read last night...

Same here, and also this:

my problem was not feeling like everything was my responsibility.

After 30 years in nonprofits and now an agency that might as well be a nonprofit given its mission, I am at the put-a-fork-in-me-I'm-done level of burnout. Mission fatigue is real and I have gotten to the point that I just don't give a damn, which I don't like feeling.

I would quit tomorrow except for the fact that I have the insurance and my spouse has an expensive condition, and I feel guilt about dumping projects that I started on my colleagues. Slowly coming to terms with the latter and spending a lot of time trying to figure out ACA options for the former. Currently trapped in a catch-22 which is adding to my burnout stress: The insurance companies with plans in my area can't or won't tell me if they will cover very specific durable medical equipment because I'm not a member, but I'm not going to buy a plan until I know they will cover the DME! So frustrating and the only other option is extremely expensive COBRA. Plus there's the whole SCOTUS ruling hanging out there...do I have faith they won't end it and quit or hold out until the decision...and if they cancel ACA??? I can't even go there or I will completely lose it. FU U.S. version of health "care".

Anyway, I appreciate this thread for helping me feel not so alone and for all of Malcat's hard-won wisdom on this subject.

[Linea_Norway]

Those of us who burnout do so because of a series of LEARNED patterns of behaviour that set us up to burnout, namely a value system where we consider our personal well being to be a resource worth sacrificing for the desired outcomes of our superiors.

This was so profound, it hit me like a gut punch. It was exactly what I needed to read last night...

Same here, and also this:

my problem was not feeling like everything was my responsibility.

After 30 years in nonprofits and now an agency that might as well be a nonprofit given its mission, I am at the put-a-fork-in-me-I'm-done level of burnout. Mission fatigue is real and I have gotten to the point that I just don't give a damn, which I don't like feeling.

I would quit tomorrow except for the fact that I have the insurance and my spouse has an expensive condition, and I feel guilt about dumping projects that I started on my colleagues. Slowly coming to terms with the latter and spending a lot of time trying to figure out ACA options for the former. Currently trapped in a catch-22 which is adding to my burnout stress: The insurance companies with plans in my area can't or won't tell me if they will cover very specific durable medical equipment because I'm not a member, but I'm not going to buy a plan until I know they will cover the DME! So frustrating and the only other option is extremely expensive COBRA. Plus there's the whole SCOTUS ruling hanging out there...do I have faith they won't end it and quit or hold out until the decision...and if they cancel ACA??? I can't even go there or I will completely lose it. FU U.S. version of health "care".

Anyway, I appreciate this thread for helping me feel not so alone and for all of Malcat's hard-won wisdom on this subject.

I am very sorry that you are a victom of your country's disfunctional health care system.

Have you considered working more parttime, within the limits of getting your insurance? What about 4 days a week. It makes working just a bit better. After I did that, the feedback was that I delivered as much as before.

[amberfocus]

When you see it, you can't unsee it, right?

You really, truly can’t.

I had been conceptualizing burnout like overextending in the first half of a marathon, and then paying for it in the back half when you hit the wall at mile 20. This works insofar as capturing the personal experience of physical and mental cost, but it misses the WHY.

That crucial missing piece — the why — just slotted into place for me with devastating clarity thanks to your insight. It’s one of those fundamental realizations that changes your perspective forever.

[Metalcat]

When you see it, you can't unsee it, right?

You really, truly can’t.

I had been conceptualizing burnout like overextending in the first half of a marathon, and then paying for it in the back half when you hit the wall at mile 20. This works insofar as capturing the personal experience of physical and mental cost, but it misses the WHY.

That crucial missing piece — the why — just slotted into place for me with devastating clarity thanks to your insight. It’s one of those fundamental realizations that changes your perspective forever.

Except that burnout is more like tearing your ligament in your knee in the first half of the marathon because of overuse and then continuing to run on it for an additional half marathon. No matter how slow you take it, you're still causing damage, which could potentially be permanent. And even if you stop running, the damage doesn't go away, it needs medical intervention and likely extensive rehab to get back to being functional, but your doctor will insist you never, ever run another marathon ever again.

Burnout isn't a temporary overextension that can be reversed through moderation. It's a systematic disregard for natural physiological and psychological limits with devastating consequences.

You don't just need to examine the why of doing it in the first place, you need to examine the why of ignoring and downplaying it while it's happening, which is what basically everyone does, otherwise they would be sane and heed the warnings when they happen.

Burnout is a wildly irrational thing that feels entirely rational while it's happening.

[StarBright]

Burnout is a wildly irrational thing that feels entirely rational while it's happening.

I might need to write that on a sign and hang it on my wall, right above my computer monitor where I can see it everyday.

[OtherJen]

When you see it, you can't unsee it, right?

You really, truly can’t.

I had been conceptualizing burnout like overextending in the first half of a marathon, and then paying for it in the back half when you hit the wall at mile 20. This works insofar as capturing the personal experience of physical and mental cost, but it misses the WHY.

That crucial missing piece — the why — just slotted into place for me with devastating clarity thanks to your insight. It’s one of those fundamental realizations that changes your perspective forever.

Except that burnout is more like tearing your ligament in your knee in the first half of the marathon because of overuse and then continuing to run on it for an additional half marathon because your corporate sponsor is telling you that running the marathon to benefit them is more important than stopping to let yourself heal.

Edited to include the external component of burnout.

[Metalcat]

When you see it, you can't unsee it, right?

You really, truly can’t.

I had been conceptualizing burnout like overextending in the first half of a marathon, and then paying for it in the back half when you hit the wall at mile 20. This works insofar as capturing the personal experience of physical and mental cost, but it misses the WHY.

That crucial missing piece — the why — just slotted into place for me with devastating clarity thanks to your insight. It’s one of those fundamental realizations that changes your perspective forever.

Except that burnout is more like tearing your ligament in your knee in the first half of the marathon because of overuse and then continuing to run on it for an additional half marathon because your corporate sponsor is telling you that running the marathon to benefit them is more important than stopping to let yourself heal.

Edited to include the external component of burnout.

Of course there are huge external pressures in burnout, it never happens in a vacuum. Those external pressures are why it feels rational, because there's usually no external pressure telling you to put your well being first. Beingbresponsible for yourself necessitates pushing back against external pressures and programming to see your well being as disposable.

[Roots&Wings]

Those of us who burnout do so because of a series of LEARNED patterns of behaviour that set us up to burnout, namely a value system where we consider our personal well being to be a resource worth sacrificing for the desired outcomes of our superiors.

This was so profound, it hit me like a gut punch. It was exactly what I needed to read last night, the day before I finally gave notice at work. Thank you.

Congrats on giving notice! It's also easy to lose sight of the fact that we have a choice in the matter. Burnout and work anxiety are often a result of feeling like you have no choice, but you always do.

I'm in a job that routinely gets overloaded. Keeping strict work boundaries, emotional distance and speaking up when overloaded have been key, e.g. I can do x and y on this schedule, but not z: which is preferred? or this needs to be reassigned, or rescheduled, etc.

Speak up, you have a choice! You 100% have to take care of yourself first, and not all of us are taught that.

[Poeirenta]

@Linea_Norway , I actually work 32 hour weeks already. That helped me last as long as I have. I was supposed to take a 4 month sabbatical to travel but covid took that away.

I finally contacted the EAP (employee assistance program) and will be taking leave. Making lots of physical and mental health appointments while I've got the high quality insurance.

This thread and the one about ambition after fire (with the link to the school of life article) have been immensely helpful. Thanks especially to @Malcat.

I am preparing to deploy the FU money, but would like to wait until the ACA case has been decided just to be sure.

[Life in Balance]

@Dusty Dog Ranch Congratulations on taking the leave.  I wish I had taken advantage of EAP when I was in a similar position.  Instead I crashed and burned hard.  I hope your leave helps you heal!

[Morning Glory]

Marriage/kids/house are contributing a lot to my burnout. I always thought it was my job but going through three job changes in the last year made me realize it probably wasn't the only thing.  I think I started being frugal because my relationship dynamic with my husband being a SAHP was not good, and retirement was the only path out that I could see.  Oh yes also, right before things shut down last year, I was told my child probably has autism, and I've had no resources to help with that other than sporadic public school.
 I had a huge burnout meltdown and threatened to leave him if things don't change (details are in my journal).

 My current job is nice and flexible but that makes it even harder to set boundaries so that I can focus on work.
I'm working on getting some help and rearranging my life a bit. We are both now on antidepressants and working on downsizing the house.

[Much Fishing to Do]

Marriage/kids/house are contributing a lot to my burnout. I always thought it was my job but going through three job changes in the last year made me realize it probably wasn't the only thing.  I think I started being frugal because my relationship dynamic with my husband being a SAHP was not good, and retirement was the only path out that I could see.  Oh yes also, right before things shut down last year, I was told my child probably has autism, and I've had no resources to help with that other than sporadic public school.
 I had a huge burnout meltdown and threatened to leave him if things don't change (details are in my journal).

 My current job is nice and flexible but that makes it even harder to set boundaries so that I can focus on work.
I'm working on getting some help and rearranging my life a bit. We are both now on antidepressants and working on downsizing the house.

I do view RE kinda like the common mantras about money being a piece of the puzzle (being rich is better than being poor, and Forrest Gump's reply to the letter saying his investments have made him rich and he no longer has to worry about money "thats good, one less thing").  Its a big piece I think, but just one, and not the biggest (think about times when you're really really sick/in pain....all that matters then is that you feel better and all those other annoyances seem of no import at all).

[StarBright]

Marriage/kids/house are contributing a lot to my burnout. I always thought it was my job but going through three job changes in the last year made me realize it probably wasn't the only thing.  I think I started being frugal because my relationship dynamic with my husband being a SAHP was not good, and retirement was the only path out that I could see.  Oh yes also, right before things shut down last year, I was told my child probably has autism, and I've had no resources to help with that other than sporadic public school.
 I had a huge burnout meltdown and threatened to leave him if things don't change (details are in my journal).

 My current job is nice and flexible but that makes it even harder to set boundaries so that I can focus on work.
I'm working on getting some help and rearranging my life a bit. We are both now on antidepressants and working on downsizing the house.

Hi Morning Glory! I'm sort of in the same boat (breadwinner and potential ASD in one of my kids) feel free to reach out if you need anything. It is hard and the lack of services SUCKS!

[MayDay]

I don't want to go to work tomorrow.

:(

[Morning Glory]

Thank you @StarBright and @Muchfishingtodo . It looks like I might have 2 kids with ASD now (youngest got flagged at preschool screening), so I need to find all the information and resources I can get.  The last year has been difficult for a lot of people.

[LightTripper]

Hi @Morning Glory and @StarBright.

I'm in the UK, and obviously different autistic kids are about as different from one another as different NT kids (or more so!) so this may be of limited use, but my daughter is autistic (age 6) and we're in a very happy place now.  If you are early on the journey and are looking for things to read or useful online resources or just to share experiences do feel free to message me.  Obviously if your kids are older then I won't have been through that stage myself as a parent yet - but I may still know of some useful things to read or watch.

Thinking of you.  It is absolutely difficult to wrap your head around all that adjustment as well as work (particularly given that, certainly for me, being told my daughter was autistic made me realise I probably am too, so adjusting to new situations is not exactly something I relish).  Could you or your husband be autistic too?  If so, exploring diagnosis for yourselves may also be helpful (though for myself I've decided for now that just understanding that is enough, I don't need a piece of paper).  A friend's husband has recently been diagnosed (following a diagnosis for their daughter) and it's really helped their relationship (it wasn't an immediate thing, but it's helped them understand each other better over time).

[ender]

^I find the issue is that the late 30s-early/mid 40s crowd are fucking dreadful with boundaries. In general, not just in terms of work. Maybe it's a Gen X/cusper millenial thing, younger millenials seem to be much better with this in the workplace.

I have thought about this on and off and I think that part of it is the age of folks relative to the 08/09 financial crisis and when they started their working careers.

I am in my early 30s and graduated college right into that timeframe. People who are 30-35 range had a much higher impact in that timeline as, just as with covid, entry/junior people got the shaft more than folks who had experience.

It's a lot more clear to that cohort how companies are absolutely not loyal to you. I started my working career in that timeline (rather I went to grad school as I couldn't get a fulltime job when I graduated due to the market). I had an offer rescinded and know many who similarly did.

It doesn't mean that late 30s/early 40s folks feel differently but a huge percentage of people in that early 30s demographic experientially know that companies will drop you whenever it makes sense.

[Metalcat]

^I find the issue is that the late 30s-early/mid 40s crowd are fucking dreadful with boundaries. In general, not just in terms of work. Maybe it's a Gen X/cusper millenial thing, younger millenials seem to be much better with this in the workplace.

I have thought about this on and off and I think that part of it is the age of folks relative to the 08/09 financial crisis and when they started their working careers.

I am in my early 30s and graduated college right into that timeframe. People who are 30-35 range had a much higher impact in that timeline as, just as with covid, entry/junior people got the shaft more than folks who had experience.

It's a lot more clear to that cohort how companies are absolutely not loyal to you. I started my working career in that timeline (rather I went to grad school as I couldn't get a fulltime job when I graduated due to the market). I had an offer rescinded and know many who similarly did.

It doesn't mean that late 30s/early 40s folks feel differently but a huge percentage of people in that early 30s demographic experientially know that companies will drop you whenever it makes sense.

Perhaps. Although, I'm in Canada. We were affected by 08/09, but not the same way that the US was. Also, this pattern has been noted among even younger workers who wouldn't have been affected. But yes, I think that the overall message to these younger people has been "don't trust the corporate bullshit" as opposed to "your top priority needs to be getting a 'good job' at a 'good company' where you will be rewarded for loyalty and hard work".

I'm late 30s and I was very much raised with suspicion towards large corporate employers.

[Morning Glory]

Thank you @ LightTripper . I am fairly certain that my husband is autistic and I have the BAP. His psychiatrist even said he is probably on the spectrum but also said she is not an expert in that area. I have some of the sensory difficulties and some subtle social things (interrupting, not recognizing sarcasm), but I am not resistant to change at all. He, on the other hand, is so resistant to change that it's hard to take vacations. He wouldn't look for a better job when he was doing menial factory work, even though he is fairly intelligent. Once we had a kid the hours didn't work with daycare so he stayed home. I worked nights and we would have arguments over how much sleep I needed because he didn't want to get up and watch the kid. I have always wanted to travel and he thinks it's pointless so he never helps set anything up. If I complain about the kids it's always my fault because I wanted kids. Oh and moving here was my idea too so I can't vent about my job because it was my idea to move. I just put my head in the sand and put up with it, until I finally had a giant meltdown and threatened to leave. I want him to get diagnosed because it would explain all of these things in a way that doesn't mean he's just an asshole.

This year he was resistant to doing the distance learning, put me in tears thinking I would have to do it on top of work, but eventually came around to it. His attitude is very negative all the time. I have been with him so long that I thought this was just normal. I've never had another adult relationship to compare it to.  He has been helping around the house more since I threatened to leave, and the yelling is a lot less frequent since he started meds.

 My oldest will be 6 next month and my youngest is 3, both boys. He has never been physically abusive or unfaithful. I have friends who have been through so much worse I feel like I'm just whining.

[Morning Glory]

Marriage/kids/house are contributing a lot to my burnout. I always thought it was my job but going through three job changes in the last year made me realize it probably wasn't the only thing.  I think I started being frugal because my relationship dynamic with my husband being a SAHP was not good, and retirement was the only path out that I could see.  Oh yes also, right before things shut down last year, I was told my child probably has autism, and I've had no resources to help with that other than sporadic public school.
 I had a huge burnout meltdown and threatened to leave him if things don't change (details are in my journal).

 My current job is nice and flexible but that makes it even harder to set boundaries so that I can focus on work.
I'm working on getting some help and rearranging my life a bit. We are both now on antidepressants and working on downsizing the house.

I do view RE kinda like the common mantras about money being a piece of the puzzle (being rich is better than being poor, and Forrest Gump's reply to the letter saying his investments have made him rich and he no longer has to worry about money "thats good, one less thing").  Its a big piece I think, but just one, and not the biggest (think about times when you're really really sick/in pain....all that matters then is that you feel better and all those other annoyances seem of no import at all).

2020 was my biggest increase in net worth and biggest decrease in happiness. I have seen and been through worse but I just can't handle it like I used to.

[Morning Glory]

^I find the issue is that the late 30s-early/mid 40s crowd are fucking dreadful with boundaries. In general, not just in terms of work. Maybe it's a Gen X/cusper millenial thing, younger millenials seem to be much better with this in the workplace.

I have thought about this on and off and I think that part of it is the age of folks relative to the 08/09 financial crisis and when they started their working careers.

I am in my early 30s and graduated college right into that timeframe. People who are 30-35 range had a much higher impact in that timeline as, just as with covid, entry/junior people got the shaft more than folks who had experience.

It's a lot more clear to that cohort how companies are absolutely not loyal to you. I started my working career in that timeline (rather I went to grad school as I couldn't get a fulltime job when I graduated due to the market). I had an offer rescinded and know many who similarly did.

It doesn't mean that late 30s/early 40s folks feel differently but a huge percentage of people in that early 30s demographic experientially know that companies will drop you whenever it makes sense.

Perhaps. Although, I'm in Canada. We were affected by 08/09, but not the same way that the US was. Also, this pattern has been noted among even younger workers who wouldn't have been affected. But yes, I think that the overall message to these younger people has been "don't trust the corporate bullshit" as opposed to "your top priority needs to be getting a 'good job' at a 'good company' where you will be rewarded for loyalty and hard work".

I'm late 30s and I was very much raised with suspicion towards large corporate employers.

I glided through the recession in a very safe profession at a large employer. I even sold my first house just before the bubble burst.  I then proceeded to wear myself out trying to get promoted in a place where I was a little fish in a very big and very conformist pond. That was a definite contributor to my burnout 2 jobs ago. I saw benefits erode dramatically in the time I was there too.

[FR2000EE]

I think the OP is is a good spot.

Current Situation:
1. Good Paying Job
2. Good Hours
3. Good at what you do, and they are paying you well. (could be much worse, you could be a teacher for example, their stress during these times seems very high)
4. Because of good pay and investments you already have, you can retire in your early 40's. That is fabulous!

I would use the fact that your current situation is stressful to buckle down and really save for FIRE. Then you are using the stress to your advantage vs. it using you. When I forgot my FIRE goals, work was always a chore, when I buckled down on savings and investing as much as possible, I felt in control again and didn't feel like "the man" owned my life.

And another advantage is you have a good job now, so if the stress/working environment is too much, you have a great situation to be in, while you look for another job.

Try to lighten up and enjoy the ride, it's possible the lockdown challenges are amplifying your discomfort, but those will mostly likely be over soon. I wouldn't make any major changes till the pandemic is over. Then re-evaluate the situation. Relax, you really can't lose! You are in a decent to great situation and you are in the drivers' seat.

One idea/thought that really helped me when I was really stressed - I took the job on purpose and really wanted it.

[Metalcat]

Thank you @ LightTripper . I am fairly certain that my husband is autistic and I have the BAP. His psychiatrist even said he is probably on the spectrum but also said she is not an expert in that area. I have some of the sensory difficulties and some subtle social things (interrupting, not recognizing sarcasm), but I am not resistant to change at all. He, on the other hand, is so resistant to change that it's hard to take vacations. He wouldn't look for a better job when he was doing menial factory work, even though he is fairly intelligent. Once we had a kid the hours didn't work with daycare so he stayed home. I worked nights and we would have arguments over how much sleep I needed because he didn't want to get up and watch the kid. I have always wanted to travel and he thinks it's pointless so he never helps set anything up. If I complain about the kids it's always my fault because I wanted kids. Oh and moving here was my idea too so I can't vent about my job because it was my idea to move. I just put my head in the sand and put up with it, until I finally had a giant meltdown and threatened to leave. I want him to get diagnosed because it would explain all of these things in a way that doesn't mean he's just an asshole.

This year he was resistant to doing the distance learning, put me in tears thinking I would have to do it on top of work, but eventually came around to it. His attitude is very negative all the time. I have been with him so long that I thought this was just normal. I've never had another adult relationship to compare it to.  He has been helping around the house more since I threatened to leave, and the yelling is a lot less frequent since he started meds.

 My oldest will be 6 next month and my youngest is 3, both boys. He has never been physically abusive or unfaithful. I have friends who have been through so much worse I feel like I'm just whining.

It's unhealthy to compare yourself to others in terms of envying them, and it's equally unhealthy to compare yourself to others to minimize your own suffering.

Basically, don't compare yourself to others.

Your suffering is legitimate. It doesn't matter that anyone else's suffering is worse, it's not relevant.
If you broke your arm, someone else having their arm amputated doesn't make your broken arm any better.

There's a difference between being grateful that your situation isn't worse vs denying that it's hard because someone else has it worse.

Your situation sounds very difficult. Period.

[LightTripper]

@Morning Glory that kind of problem does sound quite familiar from my friend whose husband was Dx'd.  Diagnosis didn't immediately help, but over time (I think it was a year or two ago) it has.  He understands more that her needs are quite reasonable, and tries harder to meet them.  And she understands better what he finds hard and why. 

As @Malcat says, the fact other people may have worse (or more intense) problems doesn't mean you are not allowed to feel your own difficulties or that they are not real!     

I think I'm quite like your DH in some ways.  For example, I think if I lived on my own I would rarely if ever go on holiday.  I love them but they make me very anxious.  The way we manage in our household is OH comes up with the ideas for the holidays (and is a bit naggy over getting on and booking things).  Before booking I research the shit out of them (to the point of having a sections-of-the-day spreadsheet and full details of accommodation, transport, places to visit with opening/closing times, costs, driving times, etc. etc.).  It's a bit mad but OH likes it because he doesn't have to do the research (which he doesn't really love) whereas doing the research calms my anxiety and helps me enjoy the thing more.  Luckily spontaneity is not essential to him either, or it would be pretty awful for him!  I don't know if there might be things like that you could do with your OH to balance things out better and meet both your needs, with the right encouragement? 

Like your OH I do also tend to stick with plans (and my job) even when facts changes and they really aren't serving me any more.  I would love to say that understanding this about myself has helped me not do it but .... erm..... not so much.  On the plus side it means I'm very reliable?  On the negative side, it is terrible for burn out and I do think OH struggles to watch me do it to myself.

Anyway, I hope you manage to find a way to work through it but I guess a lot will depend on your DH's willingness to do that too.
I have a 6 yo and a just 4yo too, so I feel your exhaustion :)   Though for us at least it's got a lot easier over the last couple of years as they've got a bit more self-sufficient/able to entertain themselves.  DD even helped DS to get dressed this morning in celebration of Mother's Day (which is today here) ... the results were - erm - somewhat unconventional.  But he was clothed and they were both very proud of themselves, so I counted it as a win :)    But luckily our autism diganosis was a couple of years ago now, so the stress and processing of all of that is largely in the past for us now.  I'm not surprised you're burnt out, even leaving aside the work situation.  It's a LOT to take in and deal with at once.

[Morning Glory]

Thank you @ LightTripper . I am fairly certain that my husband is autistic and I have the BAP. His psychiatrist even said he is probably on the spectrum but also said she is not an expert in that area. I have some of the sensory difficulties and some subtle social things (interrupting, not recognizing sarcasm), but I am not resistant to change at all. He, on the other hand, is so resistant to change that it's hard to take vacations. He wouldn't look for a better job when he was doing menial factory work, even though he is fairly intelligent. Once we had a kid the hours didn't work with daycare so he stayed home. I worked nights and we would have arguments over how much sleep I needed because he didn't want to get up and watch the kid. I have always wanted to travel and he thinks it's pointless so he never helps set anything up. If I complain about the kids it's always my fault because I wanted kids. Oh and moving here was my idea too so I can't vent about my job because it was my idea to move. I just put my head in the sand and put up with it, until I finally had a giant meltdown and threatened to leave. I want him to get diagnosed because it would explain all of these things in a way that doesn't mean he's just an asshole.

This year he was resistant to doing the distance learning, put me in tears thinking I would have to do it on top of work, but eventually came around to it. His attitude is very negative all the time. I have been with him so long that I thought this was just normal. I've never had another adult relationship to compare it to.  He has been helping around the house more since I threatened to leave, and the yelling is a lot less frequent since he started meds.

 My oldest will be 6 next month and my youngest is 3, both boys. He has never been physically abusive or unfaithful. I have friends who have been through so much worse I feel like I'm just whining.

It's unhealthy to compare yourself to others in terms of envying them, and it's equally unhealthy to compare yourself to others to minimize your own suffering.

Basically, don't compare yourself to others.

Your suffering is legitimate. It doesn't matter that anyone else's suffering is worse, it's not relevant.
If you broke your arm, someone else having their arm amputated doesn't make your broken arm any better.

There's a difference between being grateful that your situation isn't worse vs denying that it's hard because someone else has it worse.

Your situation sounds very difficult. Period.

Oh thank you @Malcat . One of my friends said something similar too, that it's ok to feel how you feel. I can't help it.  A couple of my friends have kids who have had life threatening illnesses, and I have spent a lot of time with people who are missing some of their vital organs. I know people who have suffered real abuse, or lost close loved ones this year. I have plenty of perspective. I know never to say "at least" or "it could be worse" to patients, why do I say it to myself?

@ Light Tripper it's possible that I could "trick" my DH into researching holidays. There is precedent: He has always had a habit of buying too many groceries and then things would go to waste. One time, a couple years ago, I figured out extreme couponing and taught him how to do it. Then he could overbuy all he wanted, because it was free after rebates and I could donate it. The grocery spend decreased and we were both happy for a while because the problem of waste was solved yet we still had a full pantry. We later stopped doing this because of time constraints with the distance learning. We do some light churning and mainly just cash out the points, but maybe I could convince him to get into it and get us some free trips.

[Metalcat]

Oh thank you @Malcat . One of my friends said something similar too, that it's ok to feel how you feel. I can't help it.  A couple of my friends have kids who have had life threatening illnesses, and I have spent a lot of time with people who are missing some of their vital organs. I know people who have suffered real abuse, or lost close loved ones this year. I have plenty of perspective.

Perspective is one thing, failing to respect your own suffering is another.

Let's put it this way: a friend comes to you and tells you that her kid has bronchitis and is up all night coughing. She knows it will pass, but she's really tired and her husband has been short tempered since they're both sleep deprived from the incessant night time coughing.

Do you then slap her upside the head and tell her that she should be grateful that this is a temporary issue because the issues that you are dealing with are permanent? That she's not entitled to her exhaustion because it will pass. That she's not allowed to complain about her snippy husband because he's normally so patient, and will be again?

Because that's exactly what you are doing to yourself when you look at someone else's "worse" problem and deny your own right to respect your own suffering.

I'm hammering this point home, because "it could be worse" is like the fucking Lord's Prayer of people experiencing burnout. It's one of the most poisonous strategies we employ as a method of diminishing and discounting the natural alarm bells that are telling us that we're not okay. It's a highly effective way to guilt yourself into continuing on and convincing yourself that you're actually grateful for how fucked up you feel, because you're not as fucked up as others.

Do you see how insane that is? If you don't, then you're still too deep in it.
To me, it's now painfully obvious when I see it.

I used to think it was gratitude. I get it.
But it isn't. It really isn't.
It's just a way to discredit your own needs and instincts.

[Morning Glory]

Hmm, I have just enough insight to be dangerous. I've been "it could be worse"-ing myself for years, while advocating against bragging about how bad it is. I have always been so very functional to have flown under the mental health radar. I am tired.

[lutorm]

Well, I put in my request to go to 3-day weeks on Friday. I can't really complain about my work; it's interesting, I think I'm pretty good at setting boundaries (extremely good compared to most of my coworkers), and I practically never think about work outside work hours, but I'm still just tired and I feel like my life is just work, kid, sleep. Since we're practically FIRE anyway it seems crazy to continue logging 40+h every week.

The big question is what I say if they come back with a no... ;-)

[StarBright]

Well, I put in my request to go to 3-day weeks on Friday. I can't really complain about my work; it's interesting, I think I'm pretty good at setting boundaries (extremely good compared to most of my coworkers), and I practically never think about work outside work hours, but I'm still just tired and I feel like my life is just work, kid, sleep. Since we're practically FIRE anyway it seems crazy to continue logging 40+h every week.

The big question is what I say if they come back with a no... ;-)

fingers crossed that they say yes!

[Metalcat]

Hmm, I have just enough insight to be dangerous. I've been "it could be worse"-ing myself for years, while advocating against bragging about how bad it is. I have always been so very functional to have flown under the mental health radar. I am tired.

Now you're starting to get it.

[LoanShark]

This has been a great thread. Just wanted to say "thanks" for all the color / insights. I'm definitely in the "burned out" stage as well. Too much self-identity tied up into career...starting to realize it's just a means to an end and not an end in and of itself. Hard to get 100% over that hill though.

[Weisass]

I just want to thank everybody for some great book recommendations in here. Picking up “I can’t even” at the library later today.

[Morning Glory]

Do you ever spend a while outside when it's really cold, and then not start shivering until you come back into the warm house? Like you just didn't realize how cold you really were? There is probably a word for it in German.  I hope this is the feeling that I am having now, that things are improving, but I'm not sure. 

I actually got out of a bad job situation into a much better one this January. I had only been there six months and was already bored to tears, plus had to wear an N95 and face shield for long periods of time which gave me anxiety problems.  It really was a terrible job, even though was easy and paid well and looked good on paper (32 hours/week, normal business hours, no weekends or holidays): I have a friend who still works there and vents to me about it all the time, so it's not just me.  The new job is not stress-free by far, but it is a lot more interesting and the hours are flexible.  I don't think I want to do it forever but I am only a few years from FIRE anyway.  My family situation is not as easy to solve as simply getting a new job, but at least I recognize now that it's not sustainable.  I really am trying my best to be happier: reaching out to interact with family and friends more often, getting outdoors and exercising, taking meds, etc.

[valaraukar]

Yes, I am burned out and looking to shift careers.

[OtherJen]

Do you ever spend a while outside when it's really cold, and then not start shivering until you come back into the warm house? Like you just didn't realize how cold you really were? There is probably a word for it in German.  I hope this is the feeling that I am having now, that things are improving, but I'm not sure. 

It reminds me of a quote I read that was attributed to one of Freddie Mercury's entourage members (paraphrasing because of course now I can't find it): "Shopping with Freddie is like hitting yourself in the head repeatedly with an ice pick. It feels really good when you stop."

If there isn't already a word for it in German, we can make one by sticking a bunch of nouns together.

[0tp]

One common thing I read with regards to burnout is people saying you might be spending your first 0-12 months post-FIRE just recovering from that. I've always added that as an argument to why being on a potential path to burn out seemed ok, not gonna lie I just romanticized that as spending 0-12 months just working out, doing relaxing things to recover, maybe smoking some weed, so thanks everyone for sharing your stories and adding a more complete picture of what those 0-12 months and more importantly the time leading up to quitting may feel like. I am especially sorry for those that have a mix of burnout and rely on their job for providing to others or for healthcare.

Then again the vocabulary I used was that instead of calling it the "potential path to burnout" I viewed it more as "enduring a job you don't love" for a few more years like a lot of you mention. Though realistically one of the reason I don't love my job (and wouldn't love any job) is because I engage in behaviors that will lead to me burning out like Malcat said. Though in addition to that my job is a 24/7 production facility and my job expectation is that I should answer calls at any time (ends up being, on average, 1x/week at random times, with 1 hr of effort per call), so it can be harder to check out sometimes, but I am learning to.

As a millennial, I don't set super strong boundaries as others have mentioned, but I do not view my job in a way where I feel like I owe them loyalty or where my identity is intertwined, simply a (hopefully short) means to an end. Take that, system...

[Metalcat]

One common thing I read with regards to burnout is people saying you might be spending your first 0-12 months post-FIRE just recovering from that. I've always added that as an argument to why being on a potential path to burn out seemed ok, not gonna lie I just romanticized that as spending 0-12 months just working out, doing relaxing things to recover, maybe smoking some weed, so thanks everyone for sharing your stories and adding a more complete picture of what those 0-12 months and more importantly the time leading up to quitting may feel like. I am especially sorry for those that have a mix of burnout and rely on their job for providing to others or for healthcare.

Then again the vocabulary I used was that instead of calling it the "potential path to burnout" I viewed it more as "enduring a job you don't love" for a few more years like a lot of you mention. Though realistically one of the reason I don't love my job (and wouldn't love any job) is because I engage in behaviors that will lead to me burning out like Malcat said. Though in addition to that my job is a 24/7 production facility and my job expectation is that I should answer calls at any time (ends up being, on average, 1x/week at random times, with 1 hr of effort per call), so it can be harder to check out sometimes, but I am learning to.

As a millennial, I don't set super strong boundaries as others have mentioned, but I do not view my job in a way where I feel like I owe them loyalty or where my identity is intertwined, simply a (hopefully short) means to an end. Take that, system...

I've found that few burnt out people actually feel loyalty to their workplace or job, what they feel committed to is a sense of self that is capable of getting shit done under pressure. Its an overwhelming feeling that challenges must be tackled with all you've got, even if "all you've got" includes your health and sanity.

Ironically, the tougher you are, the worse it is.

I used to think my ability to handle anything was a gift. It felt like a superpower. However, the more I learned how to take hits, the more hits I took.
And what happens to a boxer who is tough enough to take hits and keep going? He ends up with the worst brain damage of all of them.

The worse the damage someone endures over time, the nastier the recovery.
By the time I finally started showing the damage, after a solid 20+ years of handling an inhuman amount of shit, my brain was seriously damaged. It was not a pleasant process of just resting while my mind and body politely healed themselves in the background. Do not romanticize decompression. That would be a serious error. It's more like intensive rehab.

Once I finally gave myself a little breathing room, it took a good year, and some extremely uncomfortable therapy to even get to a point where I could begin to understand what just enjoying my life looked like without being in the process of killing myself for the sake of a goal. My husband described me as "the brilliant war time president who is utterly useless in times of peace, so he goes looking for another war".

I'm still not particularly gifted at not overextending myself, and I started my burnout recovery nearly 5 years ago.
I'm tough as nails, and I've learned the hard way that the tougher you are, the tougher the recovery.

[0tp]

One common thing I read with regards to burnout is people saying you might be spending your first 0-12 months post-FIRE just recovering from that. I've always added that as an argument to why being on a potential path to burn out seemed ok, not gonna lie I just romanticized that as spending 0-12 months just working out, doing relaxing things to recover, maybe smoking some weed, so thanks everyone for sharing your stories and adding a more complete picture of what those 0-12 months and more importantly the time leading up to quitting may feel like. I am especially sorry for those that have a mix of burnout and rely on their job for providing to others or for healthcare.

Then again the vocabulary I used was that instead of calling it the "potential path to burnout" I viewed it more as "enduring a job you don't love" for a few more years like a lot of you mention. Though realistically one of the reason I don't love my job (and wouldn't love any job) is because I engage in behaviors that will lead to me burning out like Malcat said. Though in addition to that my job is a 24/7 production facility and my job expectation is that I should answer calls at any time (ends up being, on average, 1x/week at random times, with 1 hr of effort per call), so it can be harder to check out sometimes, but I am learning to.

As a millennial, I don't set super strong boundaries as others have mentioned, but I do not view my job in a way where I feel like I owe them loyalty or where my identity is intertwined, simply a (hopefully short) means to an end. Take that, system...

I've found that few burnt out people actually feel loyalty to their workplace or job, what they feel committed to is a sense of self that is capable of getting shit done under pressure. Its an overwhelming feeling that challenges must be tackled with all you've got, even if "all you've got" includes your health and sanity.

Ironically, the tougher you are, the worse it is.

I used to think my ability to handle anything was a gift. It felt like a superpower. However, the more I learned how to take hits, the more hits I took.
And what happens to a boxer who is tough enough to take hits and keep going? He ends up with the worst brain damage of all of them.

The worse the damage someone endures over time, the nastier the recovery.
By the time I finally started showing the damage, after a solid 20+ years of handling an inhuman amount of shit, my brain was seriously damaged. It was not a pleasant process of just resting while my mind and body politely healed themselves in the background. Do not romanticize decompression. That would be a serious error. It's more like intensive rehab.

Once I finally gave myself a little breathing room, it took a good year, and some extremely uncomfortable therapy to even get to a point where I could begin to understand what just enjoying my life looked like without being in the process of killing myself for the sake of a goal. My husband described me as "the brilliant war time president who is utterly useless in times of peace, so he goes looking for another war".

I'm still not particularly gifted at not overextending myself, and I started my burnout recovery nearly 5 years ago.
I'm tough as nails, and I've learned the hard way that the tougher you are, the tougher the recovery.

Interesting, I've never really thought about the "getting shit done under pressure" personality aspect, but for me identifying as being smart has made me simply set the bar really high in terms of the ideas I want to work on and bring to the table. I know there are some jobs that are especially known for that (which I avoid).

Trust me after reading the thread I truly felt silly that I had romanticized the decompression phase. Just from a quality of life lens I did want to address some of the behaviors I see in me, but I think looking at them from a pre-burnout lens is helpful since I can understand the consequences better.

[Maverick1]

@Daisyedwards800 I found your post interesting in that my age, occupation, income and savings are comparable to yours.

My only thought would be sometimes the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. If an opportunity comes up elsewhere that appears to be a better package (compensation, work/life balance, mental health etc.) don’t be afraid to take a risk. I switched employers at the start of 2020 and it worked out better than expected.

Best of luck, I’m sure it will work out in the end.

[wxdevil]

Definitely can relate to the burnout thing. I've had some serious struggles lately where I gave up my dream job in a competitive field, to take a promotion (in pay) but not really responsibility or prestige. However, I got to come back home, which also happens to be a great place to live and where I'd choose to live.

I'm at the point where I'm feeling like I need to move on because this job is incredibly boring, I'm losing my passion for the science, and I work with some real blockheads. But do I give up the place I want to live and near family to take a chance that it'll be better elsewhere? I don't know. Changing careers would be a simpler, but much scarier, compromise.