Author Topic: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?  (Read 24917 times)

ObviouslyNotAGolfer

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I don't think this is paranoia in light of the events of last year and the recent concerns raised by former presidents, generals, some of our allies and experts around the world, etc. A large proportion of Americans  reject the legitimacy of Biden's presidency and some have shown eagerness to pick up arms as a result. If things get really bad, I wonder whether my assets, savings, retirement, investments, property will be seized and/or what other unthinkable financial and other things may occur.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/09/opinions/canadians-fear-us-democracy-collapse-obeidallah/index.html

https://www.npr.org/2022/01/10/1071082955/imagine-another-american-civil-war-but-this-time-in-every-state

I am a dual U.S./Irish (EU) citizen and am interested in retiring in Ireland (not Dublin!), but not for another decade at least. I want to stay here and put in some  more time at my job (which I generally enjoy) and collect a nice pension. However, I wonder whether the pension will go out the window with everything else.

I am starting to think about opening accounts abroad--holding some assets in Euros at an Irish bank is a possibility I will be looking into with my accountant and feduciary. Maybe time to start looking for a job over there!

I have never been the stock-the-bunker-with-ammo-and canned foods kind of person, but I think less severe measures are worthwhile to think about at this point!

Any thoughts on this?



« Last Edit: January 10, 2022, 02:24:41 PM by ObviouslyNotAGolfer »

joe189man

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2022, 02:19:58 PM »
Ray Dalio has talked about this a little and about the Debt cycle and its imapcts

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/ray-dalio-commentary-changing-world-202256827.html

I need to listen to his latest podcast with Lex Fridman


GodlessCommie

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2022, 02:23:48 PM »
I am not. I prefer to don't look up, it worked well for all concerned in the movie.

GodlessCommie

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2022, 02:28:42 PM »
On a more serious note, I have a really miserable track record of trying to react to political developments. Developments in multiple countries, each of which I thought I had better than average understanding of. Apparently, authoritarianism and good stock market are not mutually exclusive, at least not for a very long while. So I'm trying very hard not to start timing markets again.

Cranky

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2022, 03:19:08 PM »
There’s always money to be made in wartime. ;-)

Frankly, I think my investments will be the least of my worries.

GuitarStv

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2022, 03:57:46 PM »
Before the events of last year, I would have said this was ridiculous and unfounded fear-mongering.  Given the Republican parties total lack of denouncement of the insurrection (along with their continued implementation of anti-democratic policies) it seems like something that's in the realm of possibility . . . though still pretty remote.

Michael in ABQ

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2022, 04:02:43 PM »
I'm pretty sure the frog that is America will continue to be boiled alive for many decades to come.


Things were just as bad, if not worse, in the 1960s and 70s - we just didn't have a 24-hour news cycle endlessly blasting us with bad news to make a buck.


The world did not end when Trump became president, nor will it under Biden. Things will muddle along as they have with lots of people complaining loudly into their echo chambers while the vast majority ignore them and go about living their lives. Just remember that the combined viewers of CNN, MSNBC, Fox, and other various partisan "news" sources is only a few million people - out of 330 million Americans. They're talking to the most extreme ends of the political spectrum while most of us are somewhere in the middle.

Quote
Fox News was the most watched cable news channel in America for the sixth consecutive year in 2021. Fox averaged 1.3 million in total day viewers this year, compared to 919,000 at MSNBC and 787,000 watching CNN. Dec 15, 2021

GodlessCommie

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2022, 06:12:19 PM »
Things will muddle along as they have with lots of people complaining loudly into their echo chambers while the vast majority ignore them and go about living their lives. Just remember that the combined viewers of CNN, MSNBC, Fox, and other various partisan "news" sources is only a few million people - out of 330 million Americans. They're talking to the most extreme ends of the political spectrum while most of us are somewhere in the middle.

I don't recall MSNBC or CNN hosts coaching a Democratic President via text, or headlining his rallies. I don't recall a Democratic Senator debasing himself in front of a MSNBC or CNN host. I understand the appeal of "both sides", but there are no both sides here.

You are right, though, that imitation democracy, a soft authoritarianism towards which we are sliding, is not the end of the world. Life will suck more for those for whom it already sucks. Those who are fine today will still be mostly fine. Stock market will probably continue its trajectory. We'll miss the (already slim) chance to limit climate change to manageable level - but even that is not the end of the world, since only a small % of homes will burn down or will be blown away.

AccidentialMustache

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2022, 06:59:21 PM »
No. I'd be more worried about what we've done to the climate and "no-fault" general risk (eg, death by automobile accident, lightning, etc).

Kris

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2022, 07:07:39 PM »
I mean, it’s gonna happen.

The question is, do you feel lucky?

Depends on how old you are. And how long you reckon you have.

maizefolk

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2022, 07:28:38 PM »
Do I remember right that you're an adjunct at a public university? It's certainly possible inflation and/or a decline in the value of the USD:Euro exchange rate could significantly impair the value of your pension or the state pension fund runs dry and distributions need to be cut. It's also possible I'm mixing you up with another poster who uses the same profile picture.

As others have said, we've had scary times for American democracy and/or the American economy in the past and managed to swing back towards stability. At the same time, democracies do die from time to time. And the level of tribal identity I run into in the USA these days is certainly a big flashing red warning sign.

There is nothing wrong with opening a bank or investment account outside of the USA. But make sure you keep on top of filing FBAR and form 8938 every single year if you do.

Abe

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2022, 07:44:11 PM »
I think the financial transaction system will collapse well after any other, more important system. So you’ll have time to transfer and bail out if needed. Probability now is quite low. All those bigmouths are full of hot air and couldn’t shoot a cow from 100ft away.

Also we’re all in general much weaker mentally and physically than in the 1860s (especially those who are gunning for a civil war to avenge their ancestors or what have you), so any conflict would end in time for the next football game on espn. There’s no clear authoritarian “Big Man” to benefit from the chaos, so no one wants to set it off. Last but most important, the entire military has been exposed to the pointlessness of war, so likely have little interest in joining a bunch of loser wash-outs who couldn’t qualify for the army in the first place.
 Honestly I’d be much more worried about militia nutjobs shooting up a walmart again rather than an actual civil war. Moral of the story: don’t go shopping.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2022, 07:46:55 PM by Abe »

PDXTabs

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2022, 08:11:50 PM »
I think about this with my US/UK passports and every last penny to my name in the USA. The kind people in the investor sub-forum told me not to worry.

In all seriousness I do think it would be a bit much for all of my Fidelity and Vanguard held mutual funds held in Fidelity and Vanguard accounts to go to zero, keeping in mind that I'm global market cap weighted.

With that said I always keep my passports up to date. When governments collapse they can collapse fast.

PDXTabs

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2022, 08:18:53 PM »
There is nothing wrong with opening a bank or investment account outside of the USA. But make sure you keep on top of filing FBAR and form 8938 every single year if you do.

No, the problem comes from PFICs. So you can open a foreign brokerage account but then buy ETFs domiciled in the USA, which kind of defeats the purpose. Also, the EU won't let you because of PRIIPs.

maizefolk

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2022, 08:22:19 PM »
I think about this with my US/UK passports and every last penny to my name in the USA. The kind people in the investor sub-forum told me not to worry.

In all seriousness I do think it would be a bit much for all of my Fidelity and Vanguard held mutual funds held in Fidelity and Vanguard accounts to go to zero, keeping in mind that I'm global market cap weighted.

With that said I always keep my passports up to date. When governments collapse they can collapse fast.

I agree that having your assets go to zero would take a REALLY extreme event.

The combination of some development(s in the USA that might make you want to relocate to the UK combined with the imposition of capital controls that'd make it hard to access those funds or transfer them out of the country seems comparatively much more likely (whether or not it qualifies as "likely" in any sort of absolute sense).

FINate

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2022, 08:58:37 PM »
Civil war in the US would be a worldwide event. In the 1860s we were a minor player on the world stage, not so now.

It's well known that Russia has been actively working for decades to destabilize the West. One has to ask: why? Putin has ambitions that he's not even attempting to hide anymore w.r.t. the former Soviet block. China has similar regional aspirations.

If the US descends into chaos Russia, China, and others will jump on the opportunity to expand boarders, influence, access to natural resources. It will be an orgy of violence the likes of which the world has not seen since WWII. There will be no real safe havens, investing or otherwise.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2022, 09:00:28 PM by FINate »

Fomerly known as something

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2022, 09:04:16 PM »
Like other “problems,” I’m basically an elite, or a sub elite.  I can buy my way someplace “safe”.

Problems = say wanting an abortion if I lived in Texas.

Safe = ability to get a golden retirement visa.

bmjohnson35

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2022, 09:21:46 PM »
I'm pretty sure the frog that is America will continue to be boiled alive for many decades to come.


Things were just as bad, if not worse, in the 1960s and 70s - we just didn't have a 24-hour news cycle endlessly blasting us with bad news to make a buck.


The world did not end when Trump became president, nor will it under Biden. Things will muddle along as they have with lots of people complaining loudly into their echo chambers while the vast majority ignore them and go about living their lives. Just remember that the combined viewers of CNN, MSNBC, Fox, and other various partisan "news" sources is only a few million people - out of 330 million Americans. They're talking to the most extreme ends of the political spectrum while most of us are somewhere in the middle.

Quote
Fox News was the most watched cable news channel in America for the sixth consecutive year in 2021. Fox averaged 1.3 million in total day viewers this year, compared to 919,000 at MSNBC and 787,000 watching CNN. Dec 15, 2021

This where my head is. We have our share of issues, but don't we always? Besides, we wouldn't leave the kids and grand-kids behind.
 

AccidentialMustache

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2022, 10:17:45 PM »
I agree that having your assets go to zero would take a REALLY extreme event.

The combination of some development(s in the USA that might make you want to relocate to the UK combined with the imposition of capital controls that'd make it hard to access those funds or transfer them out of the country seems comparatively much more likely (whether or not it qualifies as "likely" in any sort of absolute sense).

As long as you can sell the funds and get USD (or borrow against them), AWS, GCP, and Azure have machines with nvidia cards to rent you. You aren't doing a currency exchange, you're renting compute power... it just happens that you can use said compute power to mint crypto currency. Conveniently, crypto by its very nature is worldwide and distributed, so it doesn't much care where you are, or if you move across borders and claim asylum.

PDXTabs

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2022, 10:21:14 PM »
Like other “problems,” I’m basically an elite, or a sub elite.  I can buy my way someplace “safe”.
...
Safe = ability to get a golden retirement visa.

Well, in the world sense I'm very fortunate. But you don't need a golden visa to get out of the USA. Portugal has their D7 program. Most of Latin America has something similar. Most people on this forum would qualify for a Mexican residency card of one type or another.

Paul der Krake

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2022, 12:10:08 AM »
21st century Americans are way too mellow to fight a civil war. I don't even think anyone on the left would actually show up to fight head on, they'd just make memes online.

The next war will be fought on bumper stickers.

Paper Chaser

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2022, 03:20:46 AM »
Everybody is too fat and comfortable these days to bother with fighting an actual civil war. I think you would need a lot more hungry, desperate, angry people for that. And if you get to a point where a large enough part of the population is hungry and desperate enough to take up arms then your investments are probably not worth very much at that point anyway.

chemistk

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2022, 06:24:44 AM »
To answer the title question - in short, no.

There's just too many moving pieces. I'm trying to keep myself apprised of larger US-centric social & economic as well as geopolitical 'threads' - history + theory & the commentary of both and one thing that's stuck out in the commentary from multiple sides specifically when it comes to the insurrection is that if a civil war were to start tomorrow, I don't think many people would actually understand what it would be about.

The right (using the term strictly to define anyone who is right-of-center) is far too fractured to have some cohesive ideology that would be rallied behind. Moreover, there's no one geographical region that would be fought over - save for maybe the Capitol as well as the capitals of more than a few states. With or without a defined 'border' that would be fought over, what would most people even fight for? Sure, the Evangelicals could incite a domestic holy war. Yeah, there'd definitely be more than a few groups fighting to evict all non-whites. But generally speaking, I just can't see the masses picking up arms simply over some arbitrary group labels like "Republicans" and "Democrats".

The left? I think it's laughable to think that any significant number of average schmucks who identify as left-of-center would even want to wage a war against their fellow Americans. I'm firmly moderate and even though I vehemently oppose Trumpism and hardline social conservatism, I'd never say that I truly hated someone enough to pick up a gun and start shooting.

Worse yet, all the things that would be fought over would be destroyed in the fight. The economy, healthcare, social institutions - gone as we know them. And when they're out of the picture, what motivation does that even give someone to continue to rue his neighbor to the point of conflict? I think the biggest thing anyone would overlook in all this is that if our current infrastructure was demolished (literally or figuratively), a significant majority of people would starve, full stop. Our food supply chain almost exclusively relies on domestic and international peace and cooperation. Any severance of that chain (as would occur when other countries close their borders to the US) would shut down the nation's food supply.

All that's to say, Civil war - as in actual conflict - probably isn't going to happen. And if it does, then we're all fucked and unless you have a bunker + supplies, you're in it like the rest of us.

Autocratic rule? Definitely possible. I know the OP is not directly referencing this, but I like to envision this similar to the events of The Handmaid's Tale - maybe without the forced sexual servitude because as far as I can tell, the concern about the ability of women to reproduce isn't there. If anything, it's dudes that should be worried. So skipping that part, there'd be an insane number of refugees fleeing the country assuming we get to the point where our institutions of democracy have been usurped. And at that point, physical assets (guns, tools, machinery, gold, etc.) is what's going to put you ahead.

If somehow we got to the point where we were under autocratic rule but the Government still functioned effectively and the world still recognized & accepted our currency - under what conditions would it take to get us to the point of asset forfeiture and rule by force without a mass uprising? I'd say very few.

I kind of train-of-thought'd this to say - if we get to the point where we have to be concerned about one's future in this country (like, actually fearful that we could be killed, imprisoned, or otherwise subjugated to the state), we're long past the point where prior preparation would have any bearing on our individual futures. Your 1-10 guns & 6-month supply of food aren't going to do shit for you if our government falls. Nor is your foreign currency unless you flee prior to shit hitting the fan. And if shit really does hit the fan, as another poster said - the whole world is going to get dragged into this so there's no escaping it.

So circling back and restating my answer to the title question - no. I am not preparing. Odds are that what I have now is going to serve me just fine in the future and if it doesn't, then we're all fucked anyway.



 

Sibley

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2022, 08:08:59 AM »
Agreed with FINate and chemistk.

Also, let's generalize and stereotype here. The people who are spoiling for a fight are, stereotypically and in general: white, 30s+, lower to middle income, have less education, obese/overweight, and more likely to live in rural areas OR very red states.

Which, as far as I can tell, correlates to: fat, dumb, and sick, without a ton of money and living in areas with poor health care. I don't make a habit of getting into fights, but my impression is that the older, fat dude who has diabetes, high blood pressure, heart issues, etc isn't going to do so well in a physical fight. Sucker punch someone, sure. Days long battle? They can't handle it, physically. War is for young men. And they're not young.

It's easy to say the words. It's easy to be the asshole flying the confederate flag. It's easy to have a bunch of guns. It's much, much harder when you have to back it up with physical action. Look at all the people who swore they'd never get the covid vaxx and then folded once their employer required it? Standing up for your convictions is hard - and that's why the people who do it are respected.

Chris Pascale

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2022, 08:17:01 AM »
I'm perfectly safe because to get into my community you need a clicker for the arm to go up, or you have to be let in by the guy in the booth. Also, I have like 20 cans of soup in the cupboard.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2022, 08:46:05 AM »
Typically, when an autocrat overturns a democracy (e.g. Weimar Germany, Russia, Turkey, Egypt, Venezuela, Thailand, etc.) the stock market and street economy are relatively unaffected for years. Eventually, however, mismanagement and corruption always take its toll. ALL one-party states are corrupt, and corruption deters people from setting up businesses, maintaining import/export relationships, buying anything that looks too nice, or performing other interactions that might be "taxed" by government administrators, police, etc. The end result is always economic decline.

Taking Venezuela as a worst-case example, Hugo Chavez first attempted a coup in 1992, was pardoned to "ease tensions", and then won the 1998 election as an alternative to the two political parties. Economic conditions still sucked, but it wasn't until 2002 that the Bolivar really began its hyperinflation, and not until 2003 when Venezuelans faced currency controls. So those who saw the writing on the wall had about 4 years to set up a dollar account in Miami, update their passports, sell their real estate, etc. With their assets protected, they had another couple of years to actually migrate before things started getting desperate and the armed gangs started running neighborhoods of starving people.

Any such preparation costs value. Selling one's real estate, flying to another country to sign documents, transferring funds - all this involves transaction costs and risks. So if anyone worried about Trump between 2016-2020 did these steps, they probably have severe regrets today. They'd have missed massive gains in the stock and real estate markets, and paid a lot in expenses. OTOH, lots of formerly prosperous people in Turkey, Venezuela, etc. are now impoverished because they were too slow setting up Euro or Dollar accounts. One has to both be decisive and get the timing right - sociopolitical collapse timing is kinda like market timing in that way.

That said, I have been reluctant to get out of paper assets and into things like physical real estate or physical renewable energy infrastructure because if I did need to flee at an opportune time (like my ancestors did, which is why I'm here today) I wouldn't want to sit around for a year trying to sell the RE portfolio. That lost time could be the difference between getting to Scotland, Chile, Italy, Oz, etc. and not.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2022, 09:13:18 AM by ChpBstrd »

moustachebar

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2022, 08:46:29 AM »
I'm not paranoid or a prepper either. I fear there's a significant chance of autocracy with an escalation in mob violence against so called elites, minorities and people with minority viewpoints, and institutions, under cover of that autocracy. I understand that this is fear and I try not to be motivated by it. Recent days are difficult because I find I am not alone in these fears, though I wish I were.

So circle of control is telling me to gather travel docs and try to live fully now. And that there's not much else I can do, even though we know borders close fast and countries will do their damnedest to keep refugees out.

We are human and act as humans do. We are heading in a regrettable direction and many of us think we can't slide into a terrible fate. No one expects the Spanish Inquisition, but neither do we expect the Cultural Revolution, ethnic cleansing, church bombings, synagogue shootings, or the Klan, but these are easy things for people to join a mob in perpetrating. They 'appear', because it serves the interests of those who promote them. At the moment I don't see how our system of playing ambitions against each other is going to defuse this, so we may find we'll live with it instead.

The worst is not inevitable, but neither is avoiding it automatic.

Turtle

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2022, 09:00:10 AM »
Pockets of autocratic rule already exist in the U.S.  (Neither my daughter nor any of her friends who are graduating from college this coming May are willing to look for jobs in Texas, for example.)

Autocratic Leaders always find scapegoats.  Money doesn't necessarily protect from that. 

There are pockets of the media who rely on fear to grab airtime/clicks/views.  People who are addicted to fear can be dangerous.

Outright Civil War isn't the mostly likely concern in the U.S. but there are plenty of other likely issues with the current political and media situation.

bmjohnson35

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2022, 09:00:39 AM »
I'm perfectly safe because to get into my community you need a clicker for the arm to go up, or you have to be let in by the guy in the booth. Also, I have like 20 cans of soup in the cupboard.

Wow. You are indeed safe!

moustachebar

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2022, 09:10:42 AM »
Typically, when an autocrat overturns a democracy (e.g. Weimar Germany, Russia, Turkey, Egypt, Venezuela, Thailand, etc.) the stock market and street economy are relatively unaffected for years. Eventually, however, mismanagement and corruption always take its toll.

There was a line on an econ report the other day, something like "the American economy depends on America being, and acting like, a democracy."

I can't get it out of my head. It might be true.

Likely takes a few years to stop acting like one, completely.

Where do you take your investments, and how do you deal with the loss of the biggest most transparent investment market? And how do you know when the writing is really on the wall? A bit like timing the market.

Many of us had an ancestor or two who made a choice to flee. Many also after being reduced to nothing.

GodlessCommie

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2022, 09:23:52 AM »
You're right; they wouldn't coach via text, just email.

Both sides have been awful. One side far more than the other, but neither is innocent.

Not defending this particular behavior, it was done by a DNC person, not a CNN person. None of the mainstream media outlets are to the Left what Fox is to the Right, and there isn't any equivalence on the Left to Jan.6 and following events.

One side far more awful than the other is exactly my point.

bacchi

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2022, 09:24:58 AM »
Also, let's generalize and stereotype here. The people who are spoiling for a fight are, stereotypically and in general: white, 30s+, lower to middle income, have less education, obese/overweight, and more likely to live in rural areas OR very red states.

I can't find the article or the research now but...the Jan6 insurrectionist wasn't about money or education but about race and being a Trump supporter in an area that voted for Biden. For example, it would be a Proud Boy living in liberal Portland rather than a racist hick from alt-right Pendleton.

Ah, here is one article on the research: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/01/january-6-capitol-riot-arrests-research-profile.html

Quote from: slate
...what he and his team have found, including research that tied rioters’ home counties to the areas that had lost the most white population in recent years.
[...]
They are a political minority in the places that they live. This is really quite striking. The more the county votes for Trump, the less likely was the county to send an insurrectionist. The more rural, the less likely to send an insurrectionist.

The Slate article is a great read.

GodlessCommie

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2022, 09:30:59 AM »
Also, let's generalize and stereotype here. The people who are spoiling for a fight are, stereotypically and in general: white, 30s+, lower to middle income, have less education, obese/overweight, and more likely to live in rural areas OR very red states.

Which, as far as I can tell, correlates to: fat, dumb, and sick, without a ton of money and living in areas with poor health care. I don't make a habit of getting into fights, but my impression is that the older, fat dude who has diabetes, high blood pressure, heart issues, etc isn't going to do so well in a physical fight. Sucker punch someone, sure. Days long battle? They can't handle it, physically. War is for young men. And they're not young.

This, like most stereotypes, is not true. Looking at the jan 6 crowd, they are relatively young, relatively fit, relatively wealthy, very few come from very red states, they have a high share of veterans and people with law enforcement background. What most of them have in common is that they come from the fastest diversifying counties.

I do agree with posters who say that the Left will not show up for a fight. And even if some do, all previous attempts (think Portland Courthouse) have been pathetic. Right-wingers were able to drive from suburbs right into the heart of the bluest cities and harass people there with impunity. Authoritarian takeover - yes. Mob violence with law enforcement looking the other way - yes. Civil war - no.

Also note that the attack on the Capitol happened in the middle of one of the bluest cities with 700,000 people living in it. You didn't need National Guard, the residents could have chased the insurgents away, yet there was no sign of a response.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2022, 09:40:28 AM by GodlessCommie »

PDXTabs

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2022, 09:34:20 AM »
Outright Civil War isn't the mostly likely concern in the U.S. but there are plenty of other likely issues with the current political and media situation.

Yup, define "civil war?" I'm hopeful that we will see peaceful Balkanization instead. But I wouldn't hold my breath.

To the posters that think that the left wouldn't play along or that the fighters are too poor and sick and old, I have a thought exercise for you. Let's say that Trump get reelected and that either him or one of his supporters does something totally outlandish and the GOP gets in line. At some point the right might cross a line that the left is unwilling to put up with. At that point it won't be a militia of AOC supporters, but what if it was Washington, Oregon, and California? There is a point somewhere in government mismanagement where the west coast will just put their foot down and refuse to play along. Then what? Does the GOP let those states leave peacefully? I doubt it.

GuitarStv

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2022, 09:41:55 AM »
Outright Civil War isn't the mostly likely concern in the U.S. but there are plenty of other likely issues with the current political and media situation.

Yup, define "civil war?" I'm hopeful that we will see peaceful Balkanization instead. But I wouldn't hold my breath.

To the posters that think that the left wouldn't play along or that the fighters are too poor and sick and old, I have a thought exercise for you. Let's say that Trump get reelected and that either him or one of his supporters does something totally outlandish and the GOP gets in line. At some point the right might cross a line that the left is unwilling to put up with. At that point it won't be a militia of AOC supporters, but what if it was Washington, Oregon, and California? There is a point somewhere in government mismanagement where the west coast will just put their foot down and refuse to play along. Then what? Does the GOP let those states leave peacefully? I doubt it.

- Anti-democratic policies
- Support of police abuse of minorities
- Outright war on abortion providers
- Fuck the environment
- Increasing gun rights
- Increasing wealth gap
- Reducing federal funding of social programs
- Teaching Christian concepts in schools rather than science based ones
- Preventing proper sex ed

What line are you expecting them to cross that's going to really piss off the left?  From what I'm looking at here, the Republicans have been remarkably consistent in their disdain for (and crossing of lines with) anything supported by the Democrats.

PDXTabs

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2022, 09:46:33 AM »
What line are you expecting them to cross that's going to really piss off the left?  From what I'm looking at here, the Republicans have been remarkably consistent in their disdain for (and crossing of lines with) anything supported by the Democrats.

Everything you listed is in the realm of normal for US politics over the history of the country, remember MAGA. What if "they" go further? What if the next time it isn't capital police officers that die but supreme court justices? 

frugalecon

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2022, 10:11:07 AM »
An issue I have no insight into is the climate in the U.S. military. All of them take an oath to defend and uphold the Constitution. How would the chain of command interpret that? Would uniformed officers be willing to follow illegal orders? Are there right-wing elements in the military that themselves would like to put in place a different system? (It is notable that nut job Mike Flynn was a high ranking officer in the military.)

PDXTabs

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2022, 10:39:58 AM »
An issue I have no insight into is the climate in the U.S. military. All of them take an oath to defend and uphold the Constitution. How would the chain of command interpret that? Would uniformed officers be willing to follow illegal orders? Are there right-wing elements in the military that themselves would like to put in place a different system? (It is notable that nut job Mike Flynn was a high ranking officer in the military.)

I'm most worried about an order that the chain of command can't agree is legal or illegal. That is, if half the chain of command decides that the order is legal and the other half decides that it's illegal. I think that is the worst case scenario and how we could legitimately end up in a situation where splintering the government would be our best case and armed conflict inside our borders would be the worst.

bacchi

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2022, 10:45:30 AM »
An issue I have no insight into is the climate in the U.S. military. All of them take an oath to defend and uphold the Constitution. How would the chain of command interpret that? Would uniformed officers be willing to follow illegal orders? Are there right-wing elements in the military that themselves would like to put in place a different system? (It is notable that nut job Mike Flynn was a high ranking officer in the military.)

All of the living, former, SecDefs signed an op-ed urging the military to not get involved in any Jan 6 happenings. That's a pretty big clue right there.

Quote from: 10_SecDefs
Our elections have occurred. Recounts and audits have been conducted. Appropriate challenges have been addressed by the courts. Governors have certified the results. And the electoral college has voted. The time for questioning the results has passed; the time for the formal counting of the electoral college votes, as prescribed in the Constitution and statute, has arrived.

As senior Defense Department leaders have noted, “there’s no role for the U.S. military in determining the outcome of a U.S. election.” Efforts to involve the U.S. armed forces in resolving election disputes would take us into dangerous, unlawful and unconstitutional territory.

Signed,
Ashton Carter, Dick Cheney, William Cohen, Mark Esper, Robert Gates, Chuck Hagel, James Mattis, Leon Panetta, William Perry and Donald Rumsfeld

wageslave23

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #39 on: January 11, 2022, 10:50:34 AM »
Reread MMM's blog post about a low information diet.  99.9% of people are not affected by the "major events/issues" covered in the media.  Could something catastrophic happen?  Sure, as always.  But a couple hundred weirdos either protesting or rioting (depending on who you ask) constitute a possible civil war.  There are 300+ million people in the United States, you can find a few thousand that will say, think or do anything.  None of the sky is falling national headlines over the last 37 yrs have affected my day to day life in any meaningful way.  And I sure as heck couldn't tell who is president or what is going on in politics based on my daily experiences.  Turn off the TV and Interet news articles and you will see very little has changed over the last decade.

Michael in ABQ

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #40 on: January 11, 2022, 11:03:04 AM »
An issue I have no insight into is the climate in the U.S. military. All of them take an oath to defend and uphold the Constitution. How would the chain of command interpret that? Would uniformed officers be willing to follow illegal orders? Are there right-wing elements in the military that themselves would like to put in place a different system? (It is notable that nut job Mike Flynn was a high ranking officer in the military.)

Most of the military skews right in the political spectrum. However, you don't reach General/Admiral rank without being a political animal.

It's notable that it was a Lieutenant Colonel (O-5) with 17 years of service who called out the President, Secretary of Defense and various Generals for the failures in the withdrawal from Afghanistan and asked them to be held accountable. A Lieutenant Colonel is generally in charge of around 500 Soldiers/Marines/Airmen, or in the Navy (Commander) might be the Captain of a smaller ship like a destroyer or a submarine. By speaking up publicly he knew he would be kicked out of the Marines and forfeited a pension that would have been worth at least $60,000 a year assuming he retired at 20 years at the same rank. There's not a lot of Generals that are going to risk losing a pension worth $100k+/year to stand by their convictions. That's true of almost anyone in a position of power which is why it's so notable when someone at that level does resign.

I will say that my oath of office as an officer in the Army is to the Constitution of the United States of America - not to the President.

Quote
Both officers and enlisted service members swear to support and defend the Constitution of the United States, but in the Oath of Enlistment, service members swear they will “obey the orders of the president of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over [them], according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice.”

Officers do not include this in their Oath of Office.

Instead, they swear to support and defend the constitution and “well and faithfully discharge the duties of [their] office.”

Being completely honest if you had a line of Soldiers in riot gear and they were ordered to open fire on a mob of Antifa trying to storm the Capitol building (or something similar) a lot of them would interpret that as a legal order. However, if it were the same mob that was on the right and waving American flags, I think you would find a lot more hesitation and a lot more Soldiers from the lowest level up to the officers in charge that would interpret that order differently and probably consider it illegal. 

ChpBstrd

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #41 on: January 11, 2022, 11:03:47 AM »
The right (using the term strictly to define anyone who is right-of-center) is far too fractured to have some cohesive ideology that would be rallied behind. Moreover, there's no one geographical region that would be fought over - save for maybe the Capitol as well as the capitals of more than a few states. With or without a defined 'border' that would be fought over, what would most people even fight for? Sure, the Evangelicals could incite a domestic holy war. Yeah, there'd definitely be more than a few groups fighting to evict all non-whites. But generally speaking, I just can't see the masses picking up arms simply over some arbitrary group labels like "Republicans" and "Democrats".

The left? I think it's laughable to think that any significant number of average schmucks who identify as left-of-center would even want to wage a war against their fellow Americans. I'm firmly moderate and even though I vehemently oppose Trumpism and hardline social conservatism, I'd never say that I truly hated someone enough to pick up a gun and start shooting.

Worse yet, all the things that would be fought over would be destroyed in the fight. The economy, healthcare, social institutions - gone as we know them. And when they're out of the picture, what motivation does that even give someone to continue to rue his neighbor to the point of conflict? I think the biggest thing anyone would overlook in all this is that if our current infrastructure was demolished (literally or figuratively), a significant majority of people would starve, full stop. Our food supply chain almost exclusively relies on domestic and international peace and cooperation. Any severance of that chain (as would occur when other countries close their borders to the US) would shut down the nation's food supply.

All that's to say, Civil war - as in actual conflict - probably isn't going to happen. And if it does, then we're all fucked and unless you have a bunker + supplies, you're in it like the rest of us.

Autocratic rule? Definitely possible. I know the OP is not directly referencing this, but I like to envision this similar to the events of The Handmaid's Tale - maybe without the forced sexual servitude because as far as I can tell, the concern about the ability of women to reproduce isn't there. If anything, it's dudes that should be worried. So skipping that part, there'd be an insane number of refugees fleeing the country assuming we get to the point where our institutions of democracy have been usurped. And at that point, physical assets (guns, tools, machinery, gold, etc.) is what's going to put you ahead.

I would argue that the definition of the political far right is religious/ethnic tribalism. They can quickly coagulate around symbols and leaders (recall how Trump came out of nowhere, and within months was declared the savior). Right-wingers tend to quickly form organizations and fall into line behind leaders. That's why you see these storefront Pentecostal churches getting started within a matter of weeks and "militia" groups jumping from Reddit to real life within months. Right-wingers are collectivists who quickly respond to calls to organize. Old principles or religious traditions are frequently changed if there is an opportunity to create an attractive organization. It doesn't matter if they are "fractured"; today's right-wing is a diverse coalition of evangelical protestants, Catholics, anti-tax rich people, racists, gun hobbyists, etc. and never once have these fractures been an actual weakness to the movement.

On the other hand, the definition of the modern left-winger is extreme individualism. The general idea is "nobody can tell me what to do based on their supposedly higher status!" which is at odds with the concept of forming an organization. Organizations need leaders, a hierarchy, a method of attaining status and leadership roles, and rules/norms/restrictions for how people are allowed to interact with one another. Essentially, organizations create the inequalities and restrictions on personal liberty that offend left-wingers. So the modern left is more anti-organizational than anything. To the extent they support expanded government, it is because this is seen as the option to accomplish things without even more hierarchical and inequality-promoting private organizations.

The left wasn't always this extreme. Tightly-organized pro-equality organizations existed in the labor movement, civil rights movement, suffrage movement, abolitionism, and of course the American Revolution, among others. The past few decades have radicalized the left into an anti-organization attitude. Imagine left-wingers swearing oaths, wearing clothing symbolic of their group, attending meetings, and paying dues. That was the real world just a few generations ago.

Because organization = political power, the changing values on the left have led to a power vacuum, which is slowly being exploited by the right (slowly relative to the collapse of left-leaning organizations). The vacuum is steadily leading the US to being a one-party state by various means, and the Republican party has the opportunity to be more extreme and still win elections because they have layers upon layers of organizations full of passionate volunteers who are willing to take orders and follow rules.

It is the slowness of the transition that is frustrating right-wingers and leading to calls for violent overthrow. It is also the slowness of the transition that allows the left wing to live in denial about the inoperability of their value set, and to do nothing in the hopes that old government institutions run by political appointees will save the nation without much added input from them.

A left wing that is unwilling to pay the price associated with forming regularly meeting communities within a peaceful and prosperous society or unwilling to conform to anything less than their own individualistic preferences is not going to organize themselves into an army any time soon. They're not likely to join the police or military either. All these facts lead right wingers to ask "Why don't we just take it by force?"
 
Thus it is the weakness of the left which has led us to this moment of vulnerability for our two-party democracy. It is safe to say if left-wingers aren't willing to pay the much lower costs of organizing in today's peaceful and prosperous times, they aren't going to be willing to pay a higher price in a world of violence and deprivation.

To reverse the slide toward right-wing one-party rule, the left or middle-left would need to suddenly reject their cynicism about civic organization and go from being hyper-individualistic to being at least slightly collectivistic. I'm not sure how quick that can possibly happen, and I'm not sure if the left's insistence on absolute equality can coexist with left-wing organizations without creating an allergic reaction. How many people walk out when a rule is proposed about no outbursts during meetings?

The struggling left-leaning organizations I have observed tend to implode when their members (who are more pro-organization than those not attending) put their own interests, turf battles, and ideological pigeon holes ahead of the group's mission or the requirement to treat each other well (manners and social norms are conformism, not saying that ironically either).

I am carefully watching the younger generation to see if they show signs of rejecting the organizational cynicism and self-centeredness of their parents. That, in the end, and the amount of time remaining, will determine if two-party democracy continues in the U.S. 

Fru-Gal

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #42 on: January 11, 2022, 11:19:49 AM »
Very interesting analysis. Some of it is quite apt, however it’s still making a lot of assumptions based on broad labels, generations, & political party affiliations. I’m not gonna debate but I respectfully disagree with your overall assessment about the left being “weak”. I see a lot of organization and change happening around climate, transit, car dependency, fossil fuel dependency, etc. Also since Democrats have been the centrist party, it’s understandable that it becomes a group that is less likely to take risks. Meanwhile Republicans have become a minority party using all kinds of tricks and tactics to stay relevant. However I’m really tired of party labels and thankfully spend no time thinking about politics (am an avid voter). I guess I’m on this thread because I do get concerned about the health of the nation and the world and I don’t like talk of war.

JoePublic3.14

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #43 on: January 11, 2022, 11:25:07 AM »
21st century Americans are way too mellow to fight a civil war. I don't even think anyone on the left would actually show up to fight head on, they'd just make memes online.

The next war will be fought on bumper stickers.

I know some of this was tongue-in-cheek, but I agree with the spirit. I think there would meme making on one side, and grunting and pawing at the ground on the other, without any actual action.

'Yes grandson, we had a civil war when I was younger. Nobody showed up at the battlefield, but still, read all about here.'

Internal attacks have gotten physically smaller and smaller. The Civil War, pretty large. Pearl Harbor, a few square miles. 9/11, four buildings. Jan 6th, a section of one building. Next one hopefully will be a group of folks fighting it out in a tiny house and the prepper bunker beneath.

moustachebar

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #44 on: January 11, 2022, 11:30:20 AM »
I am finding considered and thoughtful discussion in this thread and want to thank folks for it.

I will be returning to the low-info diet shortly to preserve sanity and that is my preferred solution.

But I am interested in our arcane traditions. That's how I ended up inadvertently watching the Capitol riot live via reporting from inside. I expected monotony and stability and wooden boxes and a roll call of states. I guess I am one of these who doesn't need to question what happened.

A small number of armed knuckleheads can do an awful lot of damage. Folks in this thread are coming up with plenty of examples. Modern nations that come apart have the same trappings of modernity and prosperity that we have, and it doesn't guard against anything. And if the fire rampages we'll be 'the folks who stood idly by', I suppose, for not getting 'caught up in the nonsense'.

The OP's question was "thoughts" and I guess I wonder if any posters here have any strategies for things within your circle of control that can help now, and if things get bad?

Abe Froman

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #45 on: January 11, 2022, 11:37:16 AM »
I am in the middle of two books that discuss recent events and lessons that should be learned from autocrats - and how the frog boil - and apathy for ethics - paved a path for rules to be made that ended up with governments that run on nepotism and bribes rather than meritocracy.

Twilight of Democracy - by Anne Applebaum
https://www.amazon.com/Twilight-Democracy-Seductive-Lure-Authoritarianism/dp/0385545800

and

Here, Right Matters - by Alexander Vindman
https://www.amazon.com/Here-Right-Matters-American-Story/dp/0063079429/ref=sr_1_1?crid=5C7Y7OBRB4R1&keywords=here%2C+right+matters&qid=1641926072&s=books&sprefix=here%2C+right+matters%2Cstripbooks%2C65&sr=1-1

I am still reading - so I don't have a review yet - but I do like to read ALL the books I can on a subject so I can try to gather my own thoughts on the matter.

maizefolk

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #46 on: January 11, 2022, 11:50:51 AM »
2020 was pretty much the best case scenario when it comes to disputed election outcomes. Absolutely nothing weird/fishy came to light despite lots of looking, the outcome didn't depend on the election results in any single close state, and an awful lot of principled people in minor elected offices fell on their swords by refusing to cast doubt on the legitimacy of state elections even though the elections didn't go the way they personally wanted them to go.

In 2024 a lot of those same principled people will have resigned or lost reelections. In 2024 the election may be even closer. In 2024 people on the democratic side of the aisle will have spent four years (correctly) hearing about all the changes states are pushing through to their voter rules. And in 2024 there is a very non-trivial chance that Trump (or someone like Trump) wins the election by the various rules set down by our constitution/federal law/state voter laws.* If Trump (or someone like Trump) doesn't win, I'd say there is a 100% chance we will have another disputed election, with a much bigger chance that things are not as clean as 2020 (for example genuine legal disputes over whether or not a secretary of state is empowered to to throw out a set of ballots in a single state that would tip the outcome of the election).

That's when you get into the situation where people in government genuinely cannot agree on what constitutes legal/illegal orders. And that is when things would get messy.

*Consider how near a thing 2020 turned out to be, even with a historically unpopular president in the middle of a global pandemic and spiking unemployment.

The OP's question was "thoughts" and I guess I wonder if any posters here have any strategies for things within your circle of control that can help now, and if things get bad?

I try to avoid doing/saying anything that would brand me as having specific political views/affiliations to my co-workers or neighbors. No political signs in my yard, no comments about politics on social media linked to my real world identity. I'm good at changing my vocabulary to signal one set of cultural/political affiliations or another. I even have two ways to describe the job I do that I've noticed lead people to come to very different conclusions about my own political beliefs and cultural background.

It's helpful that, if you read the angriest people in their own words, the people they blame are identified much more by their own political beliefs than by skin color/religion/etc which would be harder to code switch.

GodlessCommie

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #47 on: January 11, 2022, 11:57:12 AM »
I'm not sure if I agree with everything that @ChpBstrd wrote above, but the general idea is solid. Conservative worldview is hierarchical, so forming hierarchies and accepting a place in them comes more naturally to the right.

The problem on the left isn't really that it can't organize - it's that a part of it that is organized doesn't have much energy, and the part that has energy also has (aptly described) disdain for organization.

Which is a real weakness, since God is not so much on the side of big battalions as she is on the side of better organized battalions.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2022, 11:59:47 AM by GodlessCommie »

PDXTabs

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #48 on: January 11, 2022, 11:58:15 AM »
I am still reading - so I don't have a review yet - but I do like to read ALL the books I can on a subject so I can try to gather my own thoughts on the matter.

If you haven't read it already I highly recommend How Democracies Die by Daniel Ziblatt and Steven Levitsky. I just added Twilight of Democracy to my own reading list.

Michael in ABQ

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #49 on: January 11, 2022, 12:01:51 PM »

Right-wingers are collectivists who quickly respond to calls to organize.

On the other hand, the definition of the modern left-winger is extreme individualism.


Interesting analysis. I disagree in general, but interesting nonetheless.


As someone on the right (albeit more libertarian and far less enamored of the Republican party, et al) I see far more individualism on the right and collectivism on the left. Organization occurs across the political spectrum and in general has gotten much harder over the years as there is less cultural and societal cohesiveness (see the 2000 book: Bowling Alone). A lot of people will complain on the internet but actually getting hundreds or thousands of people to show up in person or dedicate real time to an organization is very difficult. It doesn't matter if that organization is trying to advocate for or against a left-wing or right-wing issue. Civic engagement in general is far less than it was in decades past.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!