$25k for engagement ring

[tomsang]

I'm surprised that you're judging her desires without fully understanding them. It's human to have irrational desires and unconscious needs; I never got the impression that this website was about full out asceticism.

You make it sound like it is Ok to be irrational. This website is about being rational. I am convinced that everyone who has a diamond ring would not know the difference between a cubic and a real without an appraiser telling them. Saying it is OK for someone to drop $25k on a ring is about as anti mustachian as it gets. There is no utility in a ring. It is a liability not an asset. A boat, car, music instrument, or other frivolous asset has some utility. A ring has no value, but to show how wealthy you and therefore it is antimustachian.

[MrsPete]

I've been thinking about your question, and the replies, for a couple days now.  I'm a girl who is pretty mustachian.  That said, I support your decision to move ahead and buy her what she is asking for.  25k in light of a lifetime is not that much, and it's something she will wear everyday, something that is clearly important to her. You have noted that desire for fine things is not a pattern, and that she herself brings in a good salary.  So many people have a 'weak spot', something that doesn't really make sense but are nonetheless passionate about.  I hope you will ignore the naysayers on this thread, and are able to get to a place where you can look forward to buying the ring because you know it will really make her happy and you want her to be happy.
Best wishes for the years ahead.

I agree, and I'd say it's not about the ring.  I personally have no desire for an expensive ring, but I wouldn't want to be married to a man who would deny me something I really, really wanted -- not when that one want isn't part of a pattern of expensive choices. 

I think some posters here have a cheap-at-all-costs type of attitude.  They seem incapable, almost afraid, of spending on something nice.  As if a once-in-a-lifetime purchase will wreck an otherwise solid budget.  As if that one choice will open the floodgates to a consumer-based lifetime.  If you can't have the things you want, what's the purpose of working so hard?  Is retirement worth sacraficing the material things that you really, really want? 

Having said that, I think you should be able to find a 2K ring for considerably less than 25K.

[poorboyrichman]

I thought my GF was being incredibly unreasonable when she asked me to spend £2,000 on a ring. Now I have gotten over the shock of it, it doesn't seem too unreasonable compared with what her broke friends had received, the mind boggles on that one! (Especially next to your request for a $25,000 USD ring!).

I must admit I was initially thinking more of spending around £1,000, and I still thought I was being generous given that I had a net worth of £1000 at the time. It caused some uncomfortable moments, especially as I'm not remotely religious and believe that children are far more of a commitment than marriage. The whole prospect of an engagement ring costing that much really upset me.

I have since sorted out my finances, and have attempted talking my lady into a vintage £2,000 ring, at least that way we get more rock for the money and I don't end up buying something that instantly depreciates in value, meaning if the worst came to worst and we parted ways we could sell it on for roughly what we paid for it. She's tried pulling the its 'bad luck' BS at first but think she might be coming round to the idea. Since planting the seed I've decided just to buy a nice ring and not tell her where it's come from or what it's worth. If she doesn't like it, she can sell it and buy whatever she wants but she'll be footing the difference (I assume the prospect of depleting her own savings will fast become unattractive). I appreciate this sounds like I'm being cheap still, and I don't want my girlfriend to miss out on what she has come to expect from life, I know I will pay for it in the long run when I want to buy that dream road bike, or take go on that stag do with my friends in years to come, so I guess I'll cave in and let her have what she wants eventually, after all £2k is small potatoes in the grand scheme of life. I know I have wasted a hell of a lot more in my pre-mustachian years.

I'm not really even bothered about marriage so splurging on an engagement ring has caused a fair few arguments at home. I ended coming off sounding cheap, so I have given up arguing and will fork for a pricey, but there will be no fancy pants wedding or honeymoon, I sincerely hope it's worth it, she's getting the ring she wants on one condition...

She's paying for the wedding bands.

[Zummbot]

There is no way an expensive car is mustachian.  There is no way that a $25k ring is mustachian.

I will never understand the "well, someone else here likes something considered wasteful, so it's totally okay by MMM standards to waste in this way too" logic.

Buy what you want.  Live the life that you want.  But don't be surprised if justifying ridiculously outrageous spending results in facepunches.

This. A $25k ring is unequivocally un-Mustachian. How she feels about it or how frugal she is in other parts of her life has nothing to do with nothing. This is an un-Mustachian purchase. Period.

With that said, Mustachianism isn't an end-all be-all philosophy, and shouldn't be. The degree to which you want to live a Mustachian lifestyle is completely up to you and your fiancé. If you and your fiancé understand the implications of spending $25k on a ring (i.e. working longer to reach FIRE), and are prepared to accept those implications, then by all means buy the ring. It won't be a Mustachian purchase, and we'll throw some face punches your way (hey, it's what we do), but then we'll forgive you =)

[dragoncar]

Lots of really good advice here!  Too bad OP didn't come back and answer the important questions like income situation and underlying reasons for the GF to "need" that ring. 

I gotta say a $25k ring will certainly look like a clown-ring unless you are married to Amazon Women in the Mood, in which case:

I agree, and I'd say it's not about the ring.  I personally have no desire for an expensive ring, but I wouldn't want to be married to a man who would deny me something I really, really wanted -- not when that one want isn't part of a pattern of expensive choices. 

Kind of a chicken and egg problem here: you wouldn't want to be married to a man who would deny you the ring, and he wouldn't want to be married to a woman that would demand a ring. 

They are beautiful rings and not to gawdy or pretentious at all... but still cost $7K. 

Now the idea of having that much money tied up in jewelry just undoes me.  But so does the idea of letting them go for less than half what we paid for them.  I'm just not sure I can stomach that.  We're trying to decide if we hold on them and make them heirlooms we can pass down when the time comes or just sell them and be done with it. 

Well if you can only sell the rings for, say $2k, does it bother you to have that much tied up in jewelry?  Because that's what you actually have tied up -- what you can sell it for.

[Elderwood17]

We were dirt poor when we got married so the ring was less than $300 back in the day.  Today we could afford much more so I decided to ask DW if she would like to get a nicer ring to see how she would respond.  She looked at me like I was an alien and said she has no interest in any other ring and to spend $5k on a ring ( the amount our nephew just spent) would be a "total waste".  I appreciate having her as my partner!

[Skyhigh]

I wish someone would explain the desire for such a thing anyways. What is the drive to wear a big rock?

Does the degree to which a potential husband is willing to financially damage themselves somehow translate into a social measure of their love?

Is it a status thing?

Does it satisfy a childhood bucket list dream?

Is it a competition between women to see who has the biggest ring?

Does it help with ones self esteem?

I do not understand how a rational person who understands the pain it takes to accumulate that much cash is so willing to blow it in such an un-recoverable way?

[viper155]

Again we come across one of the great mysteries of life.... that is, people complicating the shit out of a very easy situation. The answer is "no". Then discuss it a bit and move on. Unless you guys have piles of money saved, no debt and very secure incomes. The answer should be a simple no.

[golden1]

I am not the most mustachian here by any stretch, but this is one area where I did pretty well.

I don't know what my engagement ring cost - maybe a few hundred dollars.  I like diamonds but I like other stones better, so my now DH bought a tanzanite ring.  I would have been horrified at a 25K engagement ring - that is a nice down payment on a house for christs sake!  We maybe spent about $1500 on our wedding, which was a family affair with maybe 30 people at my husband's grandparents house. 

I don't understand the whole wedding industry and diamond scam and I don't get how people fall for it.  It is almost like putting your money in a shredder.

[MrFancypants]

I wish someone would explain the desire for such a thing anyways. What is the drive to wear a big rock?

Does the degree to which a potential husband is willing to financially damage themselves somehow translate into a social measure of their love?

Is it a status thing?

Does it satisfy a childhood bucket list dream?

Is it a competition between women to see who has the biggest ring?

Does it help with ones self esteem?

I do not understand how a rational person who understands the pain it takes to accumulate that much cash is so willing to blow it in such an un-recoverable way?

I think one should be careful to approach another person's desires in this way.  Because inevitably that lens could be focused on something you enjoy for no logical reason.

This particular question is made more difficult by the fact that the lady in question has her own job and is contributing enough that a straight up "no" is not really an option.  No marriage holds up with one side bullying the other like that. 

Maybe this is important enough to her specifically that if when asked if she would work for six months of her life to afford this, she would say "yes."  If that is true, then she gets her ring.

We're also all looking at this from different points of view.  For me the answer is a quick and easy "no" simply because we're a single income household and at the time of getting married that would have taken a massive chunk out of our liquid resources.  If my bride-to-be worked full time and made as much money as I, then maybe the answer isn't so clear cut.

[golden1]

Okay, so my above post was a rant, and not very helpful, so let me add a more helpful one. 

I like the idea of buying a less expensive ring first and then buying the big one 10,25 years down the road. 

I definitely concur that you need to at least have the conversation with her about the money and the ring.  Money problems, and I speak from experience here, are the single biggest source of stress in a marriage.  You NEED to find out what her long term expectations are for your life together financially, and it is not fair to HER for you to harbor resentment about this decision and not tell her, because the resentment will poison your marriage.  If she is really swayed by her peer group status, I can tell you that this is only the beginning.  Even if she agrees to an inexpensive wedding, there is the house, then the kids education, the cars etc....  Keeping up with your peers becomes a lifestyle that is really stressful and not fulfilling, because you are living someone elses dreams, not your own.  If that is what she wants, and you don't, it is better to know now then to know later, I promise you that.  Besides, it isn't all or nothing.  You could come to compromise where she gets her ring, but you come to an understanding about other things in the future.  She needs you to tell her what your expectations are.

[Rein1987]

Before my husband proposed to me, I told him that I do not need a diamond ring because it was too expensive. However, my husband thought this was a very important symbol that we deserved. He did a lot of study on the diamond quality, color, cut, purity and places to buy. Finally, he bought one and proposed to me.

We got married a few months later. After the marriage, I wore the wedding band instead of the diamond ring, because I am afraid of losing it, and I don't like want get it off every time I wash the dishes...when I wear it, I feel like I am wearing my computer + laptops + cars together, and I really feel ridiculous. I really have no idea why people think a diamond ring is important to love...

[I'm a red panda]

25k in light of a lifetime is not that much

I disagree. There is just no context for me where $25k is not a lot of money.
If it were an $8,000 ring, or a $10,000 dollar ring, I can kind of see going for it- but $25,000 is a ton of money. 

We put 20% down on our first house payment (less than 10 years ago, so I'm not talking about the ancient past) and it was less than this ring would cost.

I could buy a used car AND a good quality NEW car for less than this ring would cost.

[MandalayVA]

If the OP thinks it's worth it, it's worth it, but you'd be amazed at the number of anti-mustachian people who sneer if a ring isn't a certain size or color.  My engagement rings (yes, I have two) are sapphire.  My snotty sister said "oh, he couldn't afford diamonds, huh?"  I said "if it was good enough for Princess Diana, it's good enough for me."  It's like it's not considered a real engagement ring without a big honking diamond, but I love my rings as sapphire is both my and Mr. Mandalay's birthstone.

[MrFancypants]

If the OP thinks it's worth it, it's worth it, but you'd be amazed at the number of anti-mustachian people who sneer if a ring isn't a certain size or color.  My engagement rings (yes, I have two) are sapphire.  My snotty sister said "oh, he couldn't afford diamonds, huh?"  I said "if it was good enough for Princess Diana, it's good enough for me."  It's like it's not considered a real engagement ring without a big honking diamond, but I love my rings as sapphire is both my and Mr. Mandalay's birthstone.

I would have wanted to punch your sister in the mouth.  I wouldn't have, because I'm classy like that, but I would have felt a rage inside of me that would have been screaming to be let out.

[I'm a red panda]

If the OP thinks it's worth it, it's worth it

He clearly doesn't:
"About to throw $25k into the incinerator."

[CommonCents]

  If she is really swayed by her peer group status, I can tell you that this is only the beginning.  Even if she agrees to an inexpensive wedding, there is the house, then the kids education, the cars etc.... 

I've just been eating the popcorn so far, but this sentiment that there MUST be a slippery slope here - where OP has noted there is ZERO evidence of a slippery slope in any other area of their lives - really irks me.  I suspect a lot of people who want the fancy ring and the fancy honeymoon and the fancy wedding and go down the slippery path, have other indications - maybe some manicures, some fancy clothes, some fancy vacations...and it's not just a magical metamorphosis completely out of the blue.  Let's not go all McCarthy here.

CommonCents' Common Sense tips:
1) Find out more why she wants it, in a productive non-hostile conversation.
2) Determine if she really wants it after seeing the size on her actual finger (w/o saying "this is X size - do you like it?")
3) Figure out she'll give up in exchange (color? carat? splitting the cost with you? working 6 months past you? putting an equivalent amount of savings into a gift for you - and not a fancy watch but your own private investment fund which you can use as you like?)
4) Figure out how to get it for cheaper (as noted above, if you can get it for a 1/3 of the cost, well, a few here have admitted to having rings of $8k)
5) Make your decision of to buy or not to buy.

For those arguing a boat is not equivalent gizmo (because it is *their* gizmo, perhaps) I bring you this:
http://www.zazzle.com/boat_a_hole_in_the_water_tee_shirt-235839869293924343
(And I love sail boats, spend a lot of time for a nonprofit sailing center, but I still recognize they are unholy expensive beasts that just keep on sucking up money.  The sound of the expensive sail ripping within a few hours of the start of a 4-day race was heartbreaking to me as we had to turn around, but also financially punishing for the poor owner who had to buy a new sail.)

[Copperwood]

this might be the worst thread I've ever seen on the board.

MMM inspires financial independence and early retirement.
Spending $25k on a ring sets you $25k further from FIRE.
there is no debate to that.

[golden1]

Quote from: golden1 on December 23, 2014, 12:15:06 PM
  If she is really swayed by her peer group status, I can tell you that this is only the beginning.  Even if she agrees to an inexpensive wedding, there is the house, then the kids education, the cars etc.... 

I've just been eating the popcorn so far, but this sentiment that there MUST be a slippery slope here - where OP has noted there is ZERO evidence of a slippery slope in any other area of their lives - really irks me.  I suspect a lot of people who want the fancy ring and the fancy honeymoon and the fancy wedding and go down the slippery path, have other indications - maybe some manicures, some fancy clothes, some fancy vacations...and it's not just a magical metamorphosis completely out of the blue.  Let's not go all McCarthy here.

The reason I think it is probably the start of more expensive purchases in this case is the REASON she is using to justify the purchase.  If she, like others on this board. had said that she wanted the ring because it was important to HER and that she would enjoy it intrinsically, then I would be less concerned about lifestyle creep, but since it is a purchase based on peer status, that implies that that is a motivating factor in her financial decisions and would be one going forward.

[golden1]

25k in light of a lifetime is not that much

Really?

I would suggest you read these again. 

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/08/01/a-millionaire-is-made-ten-bucks-at-a-time/

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/

Let's be serious here, 25K is a LOT of money.  It is a down payment on a house, living expenses for a year.    It is more than 90+ % of people in the world make in a year.   Some proper perspective is important here.

[CheapskateWife]

Really?

I would suggest you read these again. 

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/08/01/a-millionaire-is-made-ten-bucks-at-a-time/

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/

Let's be serious here, 25K is a LOT of money.  It is a down payment on a house, living expenses for a year.    It is more than 90+ % of people in the world make in a year.   Some proper perspective is important here.

Oh wow, didn't even think of it that way...$25K for a ring now is $1K per year lost for the rest of your life, if we assume the premise if the shockingly simple math.  Now I don't have my expenses dialed in tightly enough that the 1K is a big deal in the grand scheme...but I spend that per year on my gym membership for the whole family (4 of us).   

[MrFancypants]

Really?

I would suggest you read these again. 

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/08/01/a-millionaire-is-made-ten-bucks-at-a-time/

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/

Let's be serious here, 25K is a LOT of money.  It is a down payment on a house, living expenses for a year.    It is more than 90+ % of people in the world make in a year.   Some proper perspective is important here.

Oh wow, didn't even think of it that way...$25K for a ring now is $1K per year lost for the rest of your life, if we assume the premise if the shockingly simple math.  Now I don't have my expenses dialed in tightly enough that the 1K is a big deal in the grand scheme...but I spend that per year on my gym membership for the whole family (4 of us).

So what if you say 'no' and you end up not getting married?

How much income is lost then?  I bet it's more than $1k per year given that she works and apparently makes a decent income.

[CheapskateWife]

OP hasn't been back since the 16th, so we are just arguing amongst ourselves now :D

Wonder what he decided to do....

[golden1]

So what if you say 'no' and you end up not getting married?

I venture to say that most people that say no, and then have their girlfriend walk end up better off.  Having such incompatible values doesn't really predict long term success in most cases.

[kyanamerinas]

this might be the worst thread I've ever seen on the board.

i don't think you can have been around for westchester frugal then... still one of my faves!

[MrFancypants]

So what if you say 'no' and you end up not getting married?

I venture to say that most people that say no, and then have their girlfriend walk end up better off.  Having such incompatible values doesn't really predict long term success in most cases.

This is what's called a "straw man" argument.

I'm happy that your opinion regarding the deliberately isolated portion of my post is what you say it is, but quoting me in such a way completely changes the point of the entire post to be something other than what it was to begin with.

The post was about lost income, not values and chances of success in marriage.

[minority_finance_mo]

Reading this thread is painful for me as it brings back memories. My girlfriend (now wife) wanted the same 2 ct+ engagement ring just like her friends have. For months I thought about it, tried to rationalize the purchase, and proposed other options to her. She was unwilling to budge. I nearly called off the relationship knowing that if she couldn't be happy with a "basic" 1ct diamond then there was no hope.

Finally I told her that I couldn't afford that type of ring and that we could upgrade her ring in the future (5+ years from now). She seemed to go along with that and I proposed with my 1ct ring and we are now married. It has been a little over 2 years since the proposal and my wife is still set on getting that 2ct stone in a few years. Periodically when we discuss money I bring up the fact that we are doing well by maxing our 401k accounts and paying down the mortgage...but we don't have $20k+ sitting around for a rock. We have two children and she honestly would rather have the ring than to better help them through college! Fortunately my wife does earn a decent salary and I think she is happy to continue working if it allows her to get everything (ring soon, help with college later, ...). She may change her mind once she sees me go to part-time work in a few years!

Thankfully she is only this way about "her ring" and I hope that she will become more reasonable as she ages. Luckily I can and have used the ring as leverage against buying a larger/fancier house and for keeping our aging vehicles.

Good luck to you OP.

Fuck. These stories make me want to avoid marriage like the Dickens... What's in a wedding ring, anyways.

[lizzie]

I really think it is something a lot of girls have had in their head since a young age. The power of marketing, I guess. Reason goes out the window.

Man, sometimes I read these forums and think my husband does not appreciate me enough. We got engaged without any ring and had a nice low-key wedding, total cost probably under $1200 (I can't remember exactly). Why I am not constantly pursued by mustachian men is a mystery to me  ;-)

[iwasjustwondering]

Reading this thread is painful for me as it brings back memories. My girlfriend (now wife) wanted the same 2 ct+ engagement ring just like her friends have. For months I thought about it, tried to rationalize the purchase, and proposed other options to her. She was unwilling to budge. I nearly called off the relationship knowing that if she couldn't be happy with a "basic" 1ct diamond then there was no hope.

Finally I told her that I couldn't afford that type of ring and that we could upgrade her ring in the future (5+ years from now). She seemed to go along with that and I proposed with my 1ct ring and we are now married. It has been a little over 2 years since the proposal and my wife is still set on getting that 2ct stone in a few years. Periodically when we discuss money I bring up the fact that we are doing well by maxing our 401k accounts and paying down the mortgage...but we don't have $20k+ sitting around for a rock. We have two children and she honestly would rather have the ring than to better help them through college! Fortunately my wife does earn a decent salary and I think she is happy to continue working if it allows her to get everything (ring soon, help with college later, ...). She may change her mind once she sees me go to part-time work in a few years!

Thankfully she is only this way about "her ring" and I hope that she will become more reasonable as she ages. Luckily I can and have used the ring as leverage against buying a larger/fancier house and for keeping our aging vehicles.

Good luck to you OP.

Fuck. These stories make me want to avoid marriage like the Dickens... What's in a wedding ring, anyways.

That's a very good question.  What's the point of a large diamond ring?  What message does it convey to other people?  IMO, the message is meant to be something like, "I am cared for by a very powerful person, so you had better not mistreat me."  It's a show of strength.

[pbkmaine]

Bill Gates gave Melinda a 1-carat diamond as her engagement ring. At the time, he was already one of the richest men in the world. When I heard the story, I thought: "This marriage will last."

[FarmerPete]

At the last company I worked for, the owner was a multibillionaire.  He had created the company with his (now deceased) father.  The man had enough money that he could pretty much buy anything he wanted.  Yet never in his life did he buy a new car.  Never.  He might have owned a plane and employed pilots to fly him across the country, but he never owned a brand new car.  He always bought them used.  The rich don't get rich by spending money on frivolous things.  They get rich off talent, investing, time, and a little luck.

On a side note, if you want to stick it to your fiance, tell her that you've agreed to the 25k ring.  Then tell her which band you want.  Get a nice Tungsten band from Amazon.  $15-$20.  The same rings sell for $150-$500 at jewelry stores.  Maybe she'll have second thoughts about spending 25k when you're only spending $20.

[Constance Noring]

Fuck. These stories make me want to avoid marriage like the Dickens... What's in a wedding ring, anyways.

Don't avoid marriage. Avoid the wedding industrial complex.

[iris lily]

Bill Gates gave Melinda a 1-carat diamond as her engagement ring. At the time, he was already one of the richest men in the world. When I heard the story, I thought: "This marriage will last."

That's cool. and I'll bet it was a diamond nearly perfect, with great specs. A really nice 1c rock is classic and always in good taste.

[MrFancypants]

Bill Gates gave Melinda a 1-carat diamond as her engagement ring. At the time, he was already one of the richest men in the world. When I heard the story, I thought: "This marriage will last."

That's cool. and I'll bet it was a diamond nearly perfect, with great specs. A really nice 1c rock is classic and always in good taste.

Yeah, anything bigger looks like it came out of a cereal box.  Every time I, or my wife, see one we typically wonder out loud if it's real or if it came from Wal-Mart.

We went with the "just under 1k" route.  I think it's about .97k, which saved us a bunch.

[pbkmaine]

A friend of mine insisted on a 2 carat diamond for her engagement ring. Her fiancé wanted to give her his grandmother's 1 carat, but she would not have it. She found out years later that his grandmother's diamond was D flawless and worth a bloody fortune.

[Numbers Man]

Men - This just goes to show you when you pop the question have a ring ready to slip on the finger. That way you have control over the cost of the ring. I used to think that $10k for a ring was expensive; but $25k for a ring blows my mind.

[minority_finance_mo]

Bill Gates gave Melinda a 1-carat diamond as her engagement ring. At the time, he was already one of the richest men in the world. When I heard the story, I thought: "This marriage will last."

+1

[Blonde Lawyer]

I just want to point out one anti-mustachian thing that is a realty for many in the business world.  Sometimes you need a "status symbol" as an outward indicator of your success in order to attract and retain clients.  I first saw this concept on the show "The Shield."  One of the cops girlfriends was a new real estate agent and she needed to get a "name brand" car.  Her point was "you want the realtor that sells the most houses, right? Are you going to think the most successful Realtor is the one with the Kia or the Jag?"  I hate the concept but as long as I have clients I have to appear successful.  In my world, that doesn't require a large engagement ring but it does require nice enough clothes, a respectable car that I can drive clients in (doesn't have to be name brand but it can't be a mustachian "junker"), a decent handbag, etc.  I can often find non-branded stuff that fits the bill.  However, for many women particularly in major cities, the size of your rock is indicative of the size of your wealth.  If she needs to appear wealthy to appear successful in her field, (banking, sales, law) then it might really matter.  For me, my salary less the cost of my car puts me closer to early retirement than a job that didn't require a car would (meaning the salary there would be a lot lower).  Unfortunately, until you get to FIRE, you sometimes have to pay to play to stay in the earning big money game.

[pbkmaine]

I just want to point out one anti-mustachian thing that is a realty for many in the business world.  Sometimes you need a "status symbol" as an outward indicator of your success in order to attract and retain clients.  I first saw this concept on the show "The Shield."  One of the cops girlfriends was a new real estate agent and she needed to get a "name brand" car.  Her point was "you want the realtor that sells the most houses, right? Are you going to think the most successful Realtor is the one with the Kia or the Jag?"  I hate the concept but as long as I have clients I have to appear successful.  In my world, that doesn't require a large engagement ring but it does require nice enough clothes, a respectable car that I can drive clients in (doesn't have to be name brand but it can't be a mustachian "junker"), a decent handbag, etc.  I can often find non-branded stuff that fits the bill.  However, for many women particularly in major cities, the size of your rock is indicative of the size of your wealth.  If she needs to appear wealthy to appear successful in her field, (banking, sales, law) then it might really matter.  For me, my salary less the cost of my car puts me closer to early retirement than a job that didn't require a car would (meaning the salary there would be a lot lower).  Unfortunately, until you get to FIRE, you sometimes have to pay to play to stay in the earning big money game.

Having worked in the NYC financial district for many years, I hear you. However, there are ways around this. I bought my St. John Knits and my Hermes scarves on Ebay. I made my own jewelry. Had I needed a big diamond, I would have bought a manufactured one. If someone asked me where I got it, I would have attributed it to my grandmother, because there's no money like old money. Had I needed a fancy car, I would have used my excellent mechanic to find me a classic Mercedes. Or bought a Prius, which has its own cachet. When I needed to, I was always able to obtain the trappings of wealth at a fraction of the retail cost. And for me, that was part of the fun. I grew up with old money, though I do not come from money myself. I learned a lot from them. That's why their money has passed down the generations. They know how to hold on to it.

[iwasjustwondering]

Bill Gates gave Melinda a 1-carat diamond as her engagement ring. At the time, he was already one of the richest men in the world. When I heard the story, I thought: "This marriage will last."

That's cool. and I'll bet it was a diamond nearly perfect, with great specs. A really nice 1c rock is classic and always in good taste.

Yeah, anything bigger looks like it came out of a cereal box.  Every time I, or my wife, see one we typically wonder out loud if it's real or if it came from Wal-Mart.

We went with the "just under 1k" route.  I think it's about .97k, which saved us a bunch.

I used to run with some super-rich people (my former in-laws), who themselves ran with *super* rich people (senators, rock stars, billionaires).  I grew up in a house with one bathroom, while the *guest house* at my former in-laws' had three bathrooms.  So it was quite a culture shock.  Meanwhile former in-laws were always trying to keep up with their particular brand of Joneses, which was hilarious because they themselves were so rich.

Anyway, one woman, who was the sister-in-law of a US senator, had a seven-carat diamond.  She wore it to dinner at the ILs while we were visiting.  It was so incredible.  I couldn't take my eyes off it.  It had a little rainbow hovering above it.  I'm not at all the type to go for a diamond ring, BUT there was something about this particular ring that was truly amazing to see. 

[gaja]

This is a culture thing. I don't get it, and am very happy for that. The norm here is to buy only one set of rings, and use them for both engagement and wedding bands. Some people have watched to many American movies, and get diamond engangement rings. The average size of the rocks are .2-.3 ct.

I wanted an engagement ring, so DH and me bought one together with the cash we had available that day: $50. No diamonds, of course. I do not have the conscience to wear blood diamonds. I struggle enough with the environmental impact of gold.

My sister has a diamond ring with history, were the stone was mined by a relative of her husband. It is lovely and guarantied blood free, but she never wears it. One reason is that she is afraid to loose it, but the most important reason is that it is just not done to wear flashy jewellry in our circles.

[TrulyStashin]

this might be the worst thread I've ever seen on the board.

i don't think you can have been around for westchester frugal then... still one of my faves!

Westchester frugal was an epic thread.  I hope it's still here.  I might need to read it again, just for fun.

[Jags4186]

I don't think the OP is here anymore.  But I've been thinking about this.

Tell her no.

Just say "sweety I love you but I'm not spending 25k on a ring. You'd be asking me to do something that is more than just me sacrificing for you, it is against the very core of who I am."

Let's face it. She's not leaving him over a ring and if she does then he certainly dodged a bullet.

[Blonde Lawyer]

PBKMaine - I do the same thing.  I find very inexpensive ways to fit in.  I'll tell a quick fun story.  My inlaws briefly lived in a very expensive gated neighborhood where some pretty famous people live.  My FIL was relocated for his work and the company put them up there for "temporary housing."  My inlaws decided to go to the NYE Gala and bought us tickets and flew us out to go.  Everyone was wearing clothes I could never afford.  I by chance found an amazing looking ballroom gown at SEARS of all places for $30 (prom mark down).  It looked amazing and not at all cheap.  I wore it and I had people coming up to me all night asking me who my designer was.  They had NO IDEA it was a Sears dress.  They weren't playing mean girl either.  Almost 10 years later, I will be wearing it to my own professional event this coming weekend.  I always keep that story in mind when I feel like I need something pricey to fit in.

Regarding my car, I'm driving a 2006 Hyundai but it is all black and I keep it in good condition so I'm comfortable having clients in it when I need to.  One frugal colleague transferred here from another firm and was driving an old junker that would make any mustachian proud.  My boss politely suggested he upgrade or at least not park it in "attorney parking" lest we scare off the clients re: our success rates.  (We take a lot of contingency cases).

[pbkmaine]

Love the Sears story!

[OSUBearCub]

"because there's no money like old money"

So true.  Also, this is great work-around advice on sourcing and explaining vintage luxury. 

I hope OP considers convincing his fiancee to go the route of a vintage diamond.  While the cuts were different than are popular today, the craftsmanship and over-all quality available in previous decades exceeds what's coming out of the big jewelers today.  For Christmas, I buy a small piece of quality jewelry for each of my two nieces every year.  I was, frankly, disgusted with the quality of what they were pushing at the Kay, JB Robinson, etc mall jewelers.  Two miles across town, at an old-school, independent shop, I found an entire case of estate jewelry that was beautiful, on budget - and designed to last.

[DollarBill]

I wore it and I had people coming up to me all night asking me who my designer was.

Did you tell anyone? Or just change the subject?

It's from the Curtis Roebuck line. ;)

[lifejoy]

I bought my wife a fairly expensive ring and she got a lot of nice compliments on it.  She got pregnant and fat and couldn't wear it anymore and wanted something cheap to wear temporarily.  She found a sub $50 "diamond" ring at WalMart.  She got a lot of nice compliments on it.  It was then I realized what  fucking retard I was.

Bwahahaha yep I get a lot of compliments on my Walmart bling!

[pumpkinlantern]

Whatever you spend, do it graciously. I love my husband but still feel a little sad that he was  so tight when we were ring shopping, complaining several times during the process. (looking at a few hundred dollars when we were about to buy a house with 40% down, good savings and earnings). I wasn't demanding and would have been happy with almost anything but the attitude upset me.

Very much agree with this post.  If you want a marriage to last, you can disagree with what she wants, but you should do it kindly.

Since she's dictating so much about the ring, let her be involved in the entire process.  Talk to her about getting a vintage ring at hopefully a third of the cost.  And then tell her "it's a lot of money, but I know it's important to you and I want to make you happy so I'll work hard to save up to buy the ring".  Then show her your plan to save $500/month (or whatever is reasonable in your income without neglecting your other financial commitments) until I have enough for this ring.  If she is willing to wait 18-24 months (or some other pretty long time interval) for a proposal, then maybe it's something that is really worth it for her.  Plus, you'll actually save for it and pay cash (without neglecting your other financial commitments).

[Lia-Aimee]

I suppose what also irks me about this one is that a ring is supposed to be a gift, and I'd say it's pretty poor manners to dictate the dollar value of a gift. When someone blows cash on a boat, I think we're assuming they're buying it themselves.

If the girlfriend earns great money, I'm surprised she didn't offer to pay for part of it herself. Someone buying herself a ring for 25k because she really, truly, want it is fine. Expecting someone else to is a whole other story (although I guess it largely hinges on how they plan to manage their money - joint or separate - when married.)