The Money Mustache Community
General Discussion => Welcome and General Discussion => Topic started by: robertevans on December 16, 2014, 01:12:44 PM
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About to throw $25k into the incinerator. The GF is otherwise very Mustachian (she has spent less than $500 this year on clothing, almost nothing on beauty, nothing on transportation, cooks at home when possible and is a high earner), but I cannot get her to shake her desire for a 2 carat solitaire ring. Most of her friends have similar and given our jobs and peer set, this seems to be expected. Marginally, I can likely find something for closer to $20k, but I know that even at that price, the purchase will cause lasting pain in my brain.
I am at the point of surrender; so, any suggestions on how to purchase something like this? I've checked bluenile.com and jamesallen.com and am leaning towards jamesallen.com. I do not personally know any jewelers, but I know that retail is not a great way to go. Any suggestions (or commiseration) greatly appreciated.
Thanks all
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This makes my heart hurt.
If you must buy the expensive shiny trinket, try to find a "used" ring. Diamonds/engagement rings don't exactly hold their value. Find an ugly ring with the stone you want, buy at a significant discount, and have it set in a new setting for a few hundred bucks.
Of course, if your girlfriend insists on such a ring in the first place, she may well think that a "used" ring is bad luck or some nonsense.
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That is a tough one. Have you talked about why it is important to her to have such an expensive ring? What is the root of this want (keeping up with friends? Childhood fantasy? temporary wedding related insanity? a proof of love?) Maybe getting to the root of why she wants it will help you come up with a workable solution :)
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Etsy is a good place to look.
https://www.etsy.com/search?q=solitare
I got my engagment ring there. My wife is a jeweler and designs gold stuff for a living, so she preferred that I get something made by an independent artist like herself on Etsy (she doesn't make diamond engagement rings though sorry!) rather than a stock design. You can shop with her on Etsy then contact the seller and they'll make something more unique or special for her tastes.
There's also lots of antique and vintage stuff on there that can be resized to her finger... and that can appeal to an environmental/human angle because nobody had to mine another diamond from somewhere questionable. In any case she'd get something that all the other girls don't have because it's not available through the ring stores.
You'll be happy with the prices you see there.
Hope that helps and congrats.
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That blows.
With that said, it will do no good to say shit like "that would be a dealbreaker for me" or "you should blah blah convince her" because we're not you, and it'll just add more stress to your already-stressed decision.
So.
I don't know too much about jewelry, but what I'd think is:
- Lab-grown is cheaper, and also better in pretty much every way.
- Diamonds bought retail are expensive as fuck, if you buy one that was already purchased before you can probably get it for, like, 30% of the retail price.
- Diamonds are expensive... other very nice rocks much less so. All colors of sapphires (including rubies), for example. Emeralds. A two-carat sapphire can be bought retail for under five grand. Especially if you look for different colors, not just blue.
- Many retail stores offer massive discounts on diamonds occasionally, because of how cheap they are wholesale.
- Interestingly, Etsy has a lot of small merchants who buy rough wholesale rocks and cut them themselves, and it's way cheaper than most retail stores.
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Time to negotiate to set the tone for the marriage. Next thing she'll want is a 30K wedding because "hey, I only spend 500 per year on clothes and I deserve it."
So here is a tactic - "Darling Dearest, will we be having children in this marriage?" "yes?" "would you like them to go to college?" "Great, because if we put the 25K into a 9% investment for them, by the time they are 20ish that will be around 200K we could put towards their education"
If that doesn't fly you are perhaps dealing with a terrorist -- People don't demand gifts after all. So set the tone. Learn to say no politely. "umm, you know I really put a lot of thought into that and decided to set the money aside for our future and perhaps a house downpayment (or whatever)"
You can then buy a very nice CZ ring for $300 and throw in a bonus of a 4K honeymoon.
I would suggest keeping separate accounts.
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Thanks for initial suggestions. Will definitely check out Etsy. Had heard of it in the past, but had no idea they offered jewelry. Would be great to support an independent designer. Used is also a great idea; I assume that a diamond can't really show wear and tear.
Luckily, she wants a simple wedding, maybe in her hometown, so not envisioning a big outlay there.
No sense in arguing because that will just lead to her sad and me feeling bad. I really think it is something a lot of girls have had in their head since a young age. The power of marketing, I guess. Reason goes out the window.
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mr evans,
the future mrs. needs to buy into your investment/spending philosophy (and vice-versa).
You already know this purchase does not make sense. Communicate she's worth the money, but that $25k can go to other things, like a down payment for a house.
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mostly posting to follow. I am interested to see peoples thoughts.
My SO and I both still have some of the wants for the big shiny wedding experience one day, but when we started talking about the choice between a 25k ring and $1000 EVERY YEAR to do something fun had to pause for thought. For us we are both working and earning at similar levels so to us it would make sense to share the wedding costs evenly. These are modern times. Ask her to buy you a 25k wedding band/gift and see how it plays out? Personally I think Motorcycles and Diamonds probably depreciate at a similar rate?
Or go truly frugal and give her an engagement term deposit. At least it will appreciate, if not be appreciated!
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HOLY STATUS SYMBOL BATMAN!
I joke... but yeesh.
Diamonds (as in African diamonds) are ethically challenging... that might be worth mentioning.
I'm not even going to delve into the gender identity stuff here, but my inner gender studies major is cringing.
I support the lab-grown, used (call it "vintage" and it ups the approval rate) options. And I think different stones can be very classy and much less expensive.
As Bob W mentioned, setting the tone for financial sanity (ESPECIALLY when it comes to big ticket, emotional purchases) would be good.
Congrats on the impending marriage.
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I wish I could add constructive advice, and it sounds like you know what you're facing. I'm very curious to know if the expectation comes from that three- months-of-his-salary thing that I keep seeing.
Good luck -- and have you started shopping for insurance too? That's brand-new-car level of expenditure!
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I think this one is worth talking through with her, cuz that's a bit of a ridiculous demand.
There's absolutely no way to get her down to even $10,000? 1 carat can look pretty damn big as long as you don't have large hands and fingers.
Whatever you end up doing, ask around about jewelers and find a good one. Some mark stones up MUCH more than others. I managed to find a great one through friend/family recommendations and was very happy with the result & price.
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Reading this thread is painful for me as it brings back memories. My girlfriend (now wife) wanted the same 2 ct+ engagement ring just like her friends have. For months I thought about it, tried to rationalize the purchase, and proposed other options to her. She was unwilling to budge. I nearly called off the relationship knowing that if she couldn't be happy with a "basic" 1ct diamond then there was no hope.
Finally I told her that I couldn't afford that type of ring and that we could upgrade her ring in the future (5+ years from now). She seemed to go along with that and I proposed with my 1ct ring and we are now married. It has been a little over 2 years since the proposal and my wife is still set on getting that 2ct stone in a few years. Periodically when we discuss money I bring up the fact that we are doing well by maxing our 401k accounts and paying down the mortgage...but we don't have $20k+ sitting around for a rock. We have two children and she honestly would rather have the ring than to better help them through college! Fortunately my wife does earn a decent salary and I think she is happy to continue working if it allows her to get everything (ring soon, help with college later, ...). She may change her mind once she sees me go to part-time work in a few years!
Thankfully she is only this way about "her ring" and I hope that she will become more reasonable as she ages. Luckily I can and have used the ring as leverage against buying a larger/fancier house and for keeping our aging vehicles.
Good luck to you OP.
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I had an ex like this. My lesson cost me $15k. I learned much.
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I'd suggest you also reframe the "used" to buying a vintage/antique ring. These are much more unique and beautiful than the custom junk you'd get in a store now and cost significantly less, while still being gorgeous and she'd have the added bonus of bragging on her ring as a one of a kind vintage (since it seems she is the type that needs to have something to brag about by her insisting on a 2 carat? Instead of the size, how about the cool style - vintage couture has an undeniable coolness factor).
Rings like this are amazing and beautiful and a part of HISTORY.
this is one of the few online jewelers I know/trust that deal with vintage rings, but I am sure there are tons of brick and mortar places, and even more website places that may be just as good.
http://ericaweiner.com/products/1940s-platinum-engagement-ring-with-77ct-round-brilliant#.VJCfqic3DYA
http://ericaweiner.com/products/c-1950s-platinum-mounting-with-diamond-baguettes#.VJCgayc3DYA
http://ericaweiner.com/products/20s-diamond#.VJCgkic3DYA
http://ericaweiner.com/products/1930s-deco-plat-diamond-ring#.VJCguCc3DYA
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Wow, this thread really hit home with me today... not because I want (or have) a $25K diamond ring but because hubby and I have been debating with the idea of selling the wedding/engagement rings I DO have!
When we were getting married 6 years ago (before even considering ourselves frugal at all), I told him I didn't need a diamond, a simple band would be fine. But he said it would mean a lot to him to buy me a diamond and I let him. He bought a beautiful ring with a .58 ct high quality VS1 D color diamond on a platinum band. The wedding band has small round and baguette diamonds all across in a channel setting. They are beautiful rings and not to gawdy or pretentious at all... but still cost $7K.
Now the idea of having that much money tied up in jewelry just undoes me. But so does the idea of letting them go for less than half what we paid for them. I'm just not sure I can stomach that. We're trying to decide if we hold on them and make them heirlooms we can pass down when the time comes or just sell them and be done with it. The idea of spending over $20K on jewelry just astounds me... wow.
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This probably won't be the first terrilbly expensive thing she won't be able to shake her desire for. : (
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I think you can get a lovely two carat stone somewhere like the diamond district in NYC or a pawn shop. Then have the diamond set at a jeweler. Blue Nile, etc are mega expensive. It's the quality of the stone that is the most important.
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moissanite
picking up the $800 .75 carat equivalent moissanite solitaire ring that my new fiance and I picked out together in about 30 minutes from the post office. will report back!
edit:
we love it!
http://i.imgur.com/lzYzBic.jpg?1 (http://imgur.com/lzYzBic)
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Made both of ours with a jeweler from the same piece of platinum, took about 9 hours of work, but the process is worth more to us than the product could ever be. Wife hates diamonds, went with her birth stones. Spent 3k.
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One of the best decisions I've made was to keep looking until I found a non-materialistic spouse. It was hard but worth it. She's happy with her $400 titanium and CZ ring. Good luck to you, you'll need it. And get a prenup.
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I agree with looking at vintage/antique rings, and lab created diamonds (non-conflict AND way cheaper), or pawn shops. Don't get too caught up in the C's- if it looks nice to your eyes and shines well on her hand the rating it earns under the microscope doesn't need to be VS1- but do make sure the diamond comes with the paperwork to support what they're selling you so you can insure it properly and not get swindled.
Also have her try some on to get an idea of what cut/style she likes- she might like it in theory but find 2ct to be heavy and finger-dwarfing during that process. Mine is 0.8? I think, and I can't imagine it being much bigger without being obstructive. One old college buddy "joked" to me that "he didn't even buy you a whole carat", and initially it did hurt my feelings but it didn't make me want a bigger ring- it made me cross him off the invite list.
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Big ass white sapphire, lab grown. Chemically and physically identical to a natural one.
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I go with Frankies Girl for this one. I have a confession to make -- after 40 years of marriage, I spent my own money to buy myself a great big rock. I know it isn't mustachian, but dammit I wanted it for 40 years and I finally got it this past summer. I saved up and paid cash, if that helps my case at all. I bought it "used", but who can tell if a diamond is used or not? It's a 1940's-era platinum mounting with a nice, big, fat emerald-cut diamond in the 2.3 carat range, VS1, I color. It's a little warm. It's a lot of fun to look at. I didn't overpay. I didn't get ripped off in any way unless you consider that I fell for the whole diamond scam. Damn, did I mention it's fun to look at?
I can recommend a couple of things: find out about diamonds. Since I like emerald cut stones, I knew I'd need to stay on the clearer side. A slightly warm color doesn't bother me, so I is fine, but K is rather dishwatery in color. Don't pay for what you can't see. If you can't tell the difference between D and J, then buy J. If you can't see a blemish at SI-2, then buy one of those, why pay for zero flaws if you can't see the ones that are there anyway?
Consider an older or weirder cut. I love emerald-cuts, but lots of people don't. I hate princess cuts and lots of people love them. Lucky me. I love round brilliants, the most common cut, but I love Old European cuts even more. They're thicker, have a smaller flat table on top, and reflect candlelight into millions of beautiful colors. They tend to cost less too.
Get all Princess-Diana and rock a colored gem for your main stone. Her sapphire engagement ring was copied around the world.
I bought my diamond via Craigslist from a family that inherited it and needed to pay for a kid's college. I met the seller in the office of a well-known private appraising jeweler. She let me look at it through the microscope and explained her grading and price. All of this comforted me, even though I know a lot about diamonds now. I paid half what this stone would cost me from a regular jewelry store, and the mounting was thrown in for free. (I love the vintage mounting.)
I have seen lovely diamonds in pawn shops (they use diamond testers and you aren't likely to get a fake stone at least). I've seen awesome ones at really good antique malls, with vintage mountings, cool side stones like sapphires and emeralds, and neat old Euro cuts and even some rose-cuts. Those are wonderful. Get a loup and learn how to use it.
If all else fails, consider a place like Affordable Diamonds Online down in Oregon, there's no sales tax down there and their prices are rather good!
I hope any of this helps.
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Pretty sure this would be a deal breaker for me. Maybe you are just in a higher tax bracket than my family, but for us $25k goes a long way. If she can't understand the potential that kind of money would have in starting a life together (and a family) then I'm not sure I would want to continue moving forward with that relationship. I don't intend for that to sound cold or mean, it would just be a huge red flag that our values weren't in alignment.
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(rant warning -- turn away)
And this just in ---
It appears that those who spend more on engagement rings are 1.6 times more likely to get divorced at the outrageously 50% rate already. So just from the get go you're at an 80% chance of getting divorced. Diamonds may last forever but apparently love is a temporary condition. It also appears that you closet lacks a pair of pants.
http://www.thefrisky.com/2014-11-13/study-the-cost-of-your-wedding-engagement-ring-can-predict-divorce/
I retract my previous post to share this - "honey you know I was visiting with some friends and they all thought you asking for a specific ring size (it is a freaking gift after all) was inappropriate. I agree with them"
End of discussion.
Then do whatever the fuck you want other than buy her a 25K ring. I'm thinking a weekend with 3 of your best pals partying like rock stars wherever the hell you want for a weekend.
When you do rollover be sure the prenup addresses the ring (returns to you) child custody, alimony and anything else your attorney can think of. Marriage is easy and relatively inexpensive but divorces are messy and costly.
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P.S. Here's a Craigslist ring in the Bay area.
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/jwl/4807335704.html
I think this is gorgeous at 1/3 the price, your mileage may vary.
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Run quickly away and do not look back. It'll start with the ring, then it'll be a "little nicer but more expensive" car, then "but honey, this house will have so much more room than...". Don't do it, don't give in, not only no but h*ll no! You're a fool if you do.
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bahahahaha my gf insists she will be PISSED if I spend more than $200 for a wedding ring and pointed me to some nice rings on Etsy.
I think it's funny you'd ask a forum of people who discuss being frugal and to find happiness outside the realm of mindless consumer spending HOW to go about spending $20-25k for a rock.
Enjoy and good luck...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5kWu1ifBGU&sns=em
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I can't believe this is the post that finally got me out of lurking status, but there it is. I am also in San Francisco, and wanted a huge, sparkly ring when we got engaged, but couldn't stomach the cost/ethical issues.
Solution: RedStart Design in the Mission. (https://www.redstartdesign.com/)
They custom-designed an AWESOME ring for me with two small family diamonds that we had and a huge lab-sapphire that they sourced for me. I basically got to pick the biggest one that didn't look ridiculous because the price is so incredibly reasonable. Also, they are an absolute pleasure to work with, and can help you design the ring yourself if your fiance wants it to be a surprise.
The final ring is GORGEOUS--I still get comments pretty regularly two-plus years after the wedding, and obviously, no one can tell from looking at it that the sapphire is from a lab.
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You could try http://www.idonowidont.com
That's where I bought my fiances engagement ring. It's a gorgeous 1.5 carat diamond solitaire. It's not 25k... but it's not some piece of crap $200 ring either (why waste the money at that point? just tie a string or get one of them classy ring tattoos).
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Consider me another vote for vintage, bonus points for any heirloom stones kicking around either of your families. My rings were worn by Mr PoP's great grandmother, and we recently had them engraved with our initials and wedding date next to theirs... which were scribed in there in 1917. At 1 carat, it's "small" by some standards, but definitely more of a conversation starter than getting a carbon copy of the same ring half of our social cohort has.
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$12.95 for a 10k gold band from Walmart. :) I assume it would cost a bit more these days.
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bahahahaha my gf insists she will be PISSED if I spend more than $200 for a wedding ring and pointed me to some nice rings on Etsy.
This was me too. I currently wear a $7 stainless steel band that matches my husband's that we found in a flea market. My $200 engagement ring sits in a drawer because I got tired of knocking the shit out of the setting and now am debating about just selling that sucker. Guess what? I still love my husband, he still loves me and we are still married. The ring is technically nothing more than a symbol and we really don't even need that. ;)
I also gotta say... if the OP's lady is insisting on a $20K price/2 karat ring or nothing... then I'd take the nothing. If she can't be happy with a beautiful 2-5K ring (which is still crazy in my book, but at least it's not a freaking car or downpayment on a house) that's sad and a red flag to stop and really think about, OP.
It's kind of fucked up if she is using her friends/family members' opinions and her own personal hangups over the worth of what is supposed to be nothing more than a symbol of your union as a scale of how much she is worth/how much you love her. And if she can't see that, then maybe y'all need to have a more serious discussion? Cause I agree with the others about how this is a good sign of how she'll be on other issue that will come up (wedding, kids, housing, etc...).
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I bought an incredibly unmustachian 1.5 carat solitaire for $7900 last year, GIA, Excellent cut, J color, medium fluorescence. I would recommend comparing that to a 2 carat and go from there. She may not even be able to tell the difference in the size
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Avoid anything with an EGL certificate. Especially those certified in Israel. They are notoriously wrong - as in, you're paying for an H, VS1 diamond, and you think you're getting a great deal compared to what you'd pay in a jewelry store. But what you're really getting is a K, SI1, and you're paying more for it than you'd pay at a jewelry store for a K, SI1 of the same weight with a GIA certificate.
Now, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with getting a K, SI1...just that you shouldn't be misled into paying more for it than it's worth** by it being misrepresented as something it's not.
**yeah yeah, "worth" is certainly relative. I work for a high end jewelry store, and I can't say they hold that much value FOR ME!
Here's a link that explains what I'm talking about: https://www.diamonds.pro/egl/
Watch the video. It goes into the Rapaport price sheet, which is what diamond retailers use to price diamonds. The same stone, according to the GIA grading, was valued at 3,000 per carat, by EGL-USA: 5,000 per carat, and by EGL-Israel: 7,500 per carat.
What they were passing off as a D, VS2 "should" be valued at $7,500 per carat. Say you find that online for $4,200 per carat. Wow, what a discount, right? Nope. Because it's really an F, I1 "worth" $3,000 per carat.
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I used UnionDiamond.com for the stone and bought a setting from a local jeweler. If you buy online make sure to spend the extra few hundred bucks to get it appraised by a professional - to make sure what they sent you matches the certificate. Don't forget to consider insurance for the ring. I pay $262 per year for my policy - the ring was valued at around $15K in 2008, so your insurance will probably be a bit more.
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$12.95 for a 10k gold band from Walmart. :) I assume it would cost a bit more these days.
My engagement ring is less than 1 carat -- we didn't have much money & my Chicagoan SO didn't want me getting mugged :-). It came with a wedding band that fit into the setting, but it always twisted. Later on, I preferred just a plain 10K gold band for business wear. Found it at Sears for $25. Today the gold is worth many hundreds of dollars more.
I somehow got nerve damage in my left hand & can no longer wear my rings.
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I know that some are saying run away but one desire does not necessarily mean a lifetime of high maintenance. My husband bought me a large diamond wedding ring (over 2 carats). It has NOT translated into requests for a McMansion, new cars or expensive wardrobe. Why does she want a large ring? Mine was a cubic zirconia until our financial position improved and then the fake was replaced with a larger real diamond a couple years in.
Can you find a wholesaler? My ring cost less than half of what a retail jeweler would have cost.
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I used UnionDiamond.com for the stone and bought a setting from a local jeweler. If you buy online make sure to spend the extra few hundred bucks to get it appraised by a professional - to make sure what they sent you matches the certificate. Don't forget to consider insurance for the ring. I pay $262 per year for my policy - the ring was valued at around $15K in 2008, so your insurance will probably be a bit more.
I think you're paying too much! I don't know where you live, but I have more than that value on a separate jewelry rider along with my renter's insurance from State Farm, and I only pay around $90/year.
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I will second looking at pawn shops. Mine came from a pawn shop that specializes in jewelry, and the stone was "used" but the setting new. It's beautiful and was about half the cost of a similar ring from a chain jeweler. And just remember not to count on it ever maintaining its "value," or being able to sell it for remotely close to what you paid for it, as diamonds are not actually rare in any real way. Their value is solely in marketing and the created illusion that you shouldn't buy used ones.
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I used UnionDiamond.com for the stone and bought a setting from a local jeweler. If you buy online make sure to spend the extra few hundred bucks to get it appraised by a professional - to make sure what they sent you matches the certificate. Don't forget to consider insurance for the ring. I pay $262 per year for my policy - the ring was valued at around $15K in 2008, so your insurance will probably be a bit more.
With due respect, and I've said this elsewhere... I know photographers with $15k worth of photography gear, which is bulky and fragile, and gets damaged on shoots due to weather and accidents and negligence, and gets stolen from shoots by guests and stolen during travel... who pay less than $262 a year.
So it's fairly ridiculous to pay $262 for something that is always on your hand, much harder to steal, much harder to break, doesn't care about rain or mud...
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oh dear lord!!!
If you are going to buy this ring look for an antique. It will be a much much better diamond and much cheaper. Try rubylane.com. They have a great selection of rings, usually certified and already appraised.
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Appreciate all the constructive ideas.
Jags4186 - $7,900 sounds like a bargain, will have to do some more research.
blahblah - not a professional athlete, unfortunately.
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1. I would question her judgement....I dont care how much you love her
2. Its very likely it will get lost
3. Its dangerous to walk around with this kind of money on your finger
4. Youre being ripped off
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Fucking dump her. Jesus.
edit: Rare is the time in your life when a decision is as clear as this.
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I wouldn't have even entertained this thought. I'm sorry you have this dilemma to deal with, I can't imagine how difficult it must be.
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1. I would question her judgement....I dont care how much you love her
2. Its very likely it will get lost
3. Its dangerous to walk around with this kind of money on your finger
4. Youre being ripped off
If it was a new ring at 25k then she is not walking around with 25k on her finger. More like 1/3 of that. it might cost that to replace, but for anyone to steak and pawn it is not nearly as valuable.
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Appreciate all the constructive ideas.
Jags4186 - $7,900 sounds like a bargain, will have to do some more research.
blahblah - not a professional athlete, unfortunately.
I bought through Blue Nile via topcashback.com. Paid about $8500 and got $375 cash back plus 2% cash back on my CC.
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I know that some are saying run away but one desire does not necessarily mean a lifetime of high maintenance. My husband bought me a large diamond wedding ring (over 2 carats). It has NOT translated into requests for a McMansion, new cars or expensive wardrobe. Why does she want a large ring? Mine was a cubic zirconia until our financial position improved and then the fake was replaced with a larger real diamond a couple years in.
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I'm glad to hear this. The odds are that The Big Ring will not the the last thing that OP's girlfriend will want in order to keep up with the Joneses. But perhaps she will beat the odds and be like you.
I am nearly always supportive of brides in getting the ring they want, style-wise and stone-wise. But when they start dictating size--I no longer support them.
If the OP's intended doesn't know much about quality, that would give me even more pause. If she's describing her dream ring specs only in size, ugh. She may have crappy taste. I do hope that she appreciates shopping around and buying "used" because yes, that's where the savings are. There is nothing special about a new diamond, as long as it is not damaged. My family ring of nearly 100 year old has a scratch and a chip in the center stone, but not where anyone can see it.
The poster upthread who bought an emerald cut diamond after 40 years--good for you! I love emerald cuts, they are so classic and gorgeous! I am hoping that your stache is well built and you can well afford it. I do like diamond rings and keep up with trends, but I never buy one for myself, I still have my original engagement ring that's well under a carat, but it has nice specs. It's pretty shiny.
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I cannot get her to shake her desire for a 2 carat solitaire ring. Most of her friends have similar and given our jobs and peer set, this seems to be expected. ....
I sort of thought that rings were supposed to be a surprise and something that the guy picked out on his own according to his budget. Maybe that is only in some musical somewhere, but it sort of seems more romantic, more like a gift.
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I bought some loose diamonds online to supplement Mrs. RoG's store bought ring. I had a jeweler friend modify her ring and mount the stones I bought next to the larger stone that came with the ring. Total cost for everything was under $2k I think (maybe closer to $1500?). I paid $75 to my buddy the jeweler for the goldsmithing. Retail is probably $100-150 in my area. Double it if you're in a high COL area (or drive to chinatown or somewhere that has less expensive craftsmen).
Right now, we're not really sure where the ring is. Probably in the box with tons of 24k gold jewelry. Unfortunately it's nowhere near as valuable as the 24k jewelry. Diamond was non-negotiable for her at the time, but 11 years later, she's probably changed her mind.
I paid 2 weeks salary from my summer internship at a law firm. Screw that 2 months salary crap. Or is it 3 months now?
My advice would be to get realistic with your bride to be on what the diamond means and what parameters you should use to choose what you're buying. I remember we focused a lot on the 3 C's (or are there 4?) cut, color, clarity and ?? None of your wife's friends are going to know jackshit about any of those things. None will ever have a jeweler's loop to check for microscopic defects. If the bling looks pretty and is big and fat with no massive imperfections, then that's all that really matters. I'd suggest skimping on every non-size related aspect of the diamond to get the price down as low as possible if you absolutely must purchase a 2 carat piece of crystallized carbon.
But seriously, I probably wouldn't marry a person that insists on spending that much on a ring. That's almost what we spend in an entire year including vacations, replacement funds for the house and car, etc. What are the odds that there will be wedding, honeymoon, new car, new house, etc demands placed on you based on what similar earning peers purchase? You, sir, might consider a $25k ring very inexpensive in hindsight. I would much rather blow $25k on a trip around the world, or even buy a nice used luxury car (if I'm trying to waste $25k).
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moissanite
picking up the $800 .75 carat equivalent moissanite solitaire ring that my new fiance and I picked out together in about 30 minutes from the post office. will report back!
edit:
we love it!
http://i.imgur.com/lzYzBic.jpg?1 (http://imgur.com/lzYzBic)
I saw an imgur link and I thought someone had beat me to it! Along the same lines, here's a post with a couple more pictures of moissanite (And it seems to be actually more brilliant than a diamond.): http://imgur.com/a/GuPzI?gallery (http://imgur.com/a/GuPzI?gallery)
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Consider me another vote for vintage, bonus points for any heirloom stones kicking around either of your families. My rings were worn by Mr PoP's great grandmother, and we recently had them engraved with our initials and wedding date next to theirs... which were scribed in there in 1917. At 1 carat, it's "small" by some standards, but definitely more of a conversation starter than getting a carbon copy of the same ring half of our social cohort has.
Same here, most of our friends have pretty large cookie cutter solitaire or 3 stone engagement rings, but I find them rather boring. My set consists of my great grandmother's engagement ring, wedding band, and her 10 year anniversary band studded with diamonds that became the band we used at our wedding. They are absolutely gorgeous, elegant, and so unique. The diamond itself isn't huge but it is so impressive in the setting and very sparkly. And it is so amazing to see their initials and 1917 still engraved in the band.
The other choice we had was my other great grandmothers set. Ostentatious yellow gold but huge expensive diamonds. I could have taken the stones and reset them in a custom band for way less than retail rings. Also a great option.
Ask your parents, or hers, if there are any heirlooms that would be an option.
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Moissanite! Diamonds are fraught with all sorts of ethical problems. If a 2 carat ring is that big of a deal for her, you can get one for $1500 from Moissanite without the ethical mine field. My ring is moissanite and when I got the ring re-sized the jeweler tested the diamond and it came out with the highest rating of a "real" diamond. He was shocked when I told him it was Moissanite.
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Holy moly! I forgot that $25k rings are a thing people buy on Earth without being a millionaire already. I almost never even notice rings in the first place!
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Costco. Seriously. That's where DH bought my ring and apparently it was quite a bargain!
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if she must have a large diamond, considering looking just under the 2 carat mark, say around 1.9. No one will know from looking (and hopefully people aren't rude enough to aks) but apparently being slightly under a round number brings the price down a little as people want to say they have a '2 carat' ring. Perhaps consider cuts which look bigger, not sure which these are but apparently some cuts do make the diamond look bigger in the setting.
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This is tough. Before you buy it, I would at least have a conversation of the pros and cons of the ring. Someone else mentioned a college fund which I think is a great comparison. I would ask her what she would like to forfeit in exchange for the ring. Maybe bring up the cost of the wedding.
It seems as though the peer pressure from her friends is the driving force. If this is the case, this will most likely keep happening with other shiny objects in the future. If you live in a high income neighborhood, I would consider moving to a medium income neighborhood.
My wife's peer network all had 1 carat princess cut rings in the 5K range. I was a graduate student at time making (15k/year) and told her that my budget was $500. We found a ruby type ring for $650. She just reminded me a couple days ago that she had to pay $150 because I would only pay $500. I did promise her a more expensive ring when we are older (10 year anniversary). This will be much easier because in 8 years my investments will pay for the ring and not my salary. Could you convince her of a 25K ring in 10 years?
I am also fairly certain that she won't really care in 10 years because it was peer pressure that was the driving force, not her own desires.
Among our peer group, most of our couple friends were making about 50K each for a total of 100K when rings were purchased 2-4 years ago. Based on this, the norm was a 5K ring. If your wife really wants a 25K ring which is 5 times as much I think it would be reasonable to suggest that your combined income should be 5 times as much (500K range).
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I think some of the sentiments expressed here that the marriage will be a failure or the woman will be a total spendthrift are over the top.
Different people value different things. I've read plenty of posts here where somebody will say they want something frivolous like a boat. They've thought a long time about it, and really, really think it will be worth it for them. They are almost always encouraged to get it by the majority of posters. Maybe it's a coincidence that most of the posters here seem to be men.
I don't see a ring any differently. It is a one time purchase, without any appreciable maintenance, unlike a boat. The woman clearly wants this very badly and it will mean a great deal to her. She's not asking to throw a big, expensive wedding or go on an elaborate honeymoon, and the OP states she's not otherwise spendy.
I love jewelry and I have a lovely diamond engagement ring. I have worn it every single day for 30 years. I still smile when I look at it and it gives me an enormous amount of pleasure. I like other stones, but for my engagement ring I wanted a diamond. If all my husband could afford was a small diamond, that would have been OK, but I would have upgraded with when we could afford more.
I am lucky in that my husband likes to get me jewelry for special occasions. He used to work in the trade and he loves beautiful stones. That said, I agree with many of the suggestions here to buy estate or otherwise second-hand stones, and you'll do much better staying slightly under 2 carats. Talk to your fiancé about it and find out how she would feel about that. If you were to show her some of the beautiful rings on some of the websites that have been mentioned here, she might start to think about it a little differently. Under no circumstances try to deceive her with something like a white sapphire. She'll find out and she'll be hurt. If you want to bring that up as an option to discuss, that's fine. Sapphires don't wear like diamonds though They tend to get beat up if you wear them every day. The same is true for other colored stones.
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Different people value different things. I've read plenty of posts here where somebody will say they want something frivolous like a boat. They've thought a long time about it, and really, really think it will be worth it for them. They are almost always encouraged to get it by the majority of posters.
This, this, this. I've noticed the posters on this forum get a little emotional about diamonds bought by other people. But a house with a mortgage that would blow my mind is fine because "good schools."
My ring is probably on the more expensive side as far as this forum goes, and I love it. My husband picked it out because he knew I would love it, and he spent more than I "expected" him too based on what I told him I liked. People I know (irl, not on this forum) will make semi-snide comments about my ring, but the very same people will turn around and scrunch up their noses when asking "isn't it about time to get a new car?" or passively-aggressively refer to our house that is more than enough space and luxury for us as our "starter home."
OP, I am just like your fiance... I spend almost nothing on clothes and beauty, but I really love and value my ring, which I will wear forever. We shopped together so he could see what I liked, and I steered him exclusively to vintage. I really recommend that route. It avoids a lot of the ethical complications of modern diamonds, you save some cash, and personally I just find old cuts much more beautiful. You might want to check out some diamond district dealers of vintage pieces.
Is your gf interested in vintage? Feel free to pm me if you would like any more specifics from someone who has shopped this way.
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Not much more to add, but to second everyone's suggestion to talk with your fiancé to be. I would have her read this forum thread and then discuss the ring. This is a great topic to start the communication frontier. There will be many of these types of conversations over your marriage and how you set up the communication environment at the beginning will determine how well you two will handle the stress of life through compromise. If you are not comfortable having this conversation, I would strongly recommend that you hold off on marriage. Good luck!!
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Holy crap was my first thought.
My wife wanted some diamond jewerly recently (we have very modest rings, her's was around $700). We're simply people, no one we know and certainly not us, would be able to tell real from fake diamonds. After a few semi heated discussions, I finally convinced her it was crazy to pay for real diamonds. It took awhile but she came around. Now, had I not found out about Dave Ramsey, then MMM and others, diamond marketing would've worked on us. I can't imagine spending $5k on a ring, much less $25k. Her friends all have bigger/fancier rings. So what? They also have huge houses and the 30yr mortgages to go with, newer cars and the payments too. Good for them.
If we didn't have kids, $25k would get us through most of a year of spending. A year!
Can she tell the difference between real and fake???? I'd be really tempted to get her a fake one and carry that secret to my grave.
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This, this, this. I've noticed the posters on this forum get a little emotional about diamonds bought by other people. But a house with a mortgage that would blow my mind is fine because "good schools."
My ring is probably on the more expensive side as far as this forum goes, and I love it. My husband picked it out because he knew I would love it, and he spent more than I "expected" him too based on what I told him I liked. People I know (irl, not on this forum) will make semi-snide comments about my ring, but the very same people will turn around and scrunch up their noses when asking "isn't it about time to get a new car?" or passively-aggressively refer to our house that is more than enough space and luxury for us as our "starter home."
I think the difference is that your fiancé was in alignment with your needs. You also did not buy new, it wasn't just about keeping up with the peers, etc.
I am also convinced that 99.999% of peers would not know the difference between a cubic zirconia and a diamond. I have seen this first hand as I have an income and peer group where women are wearing 2 one carat earrings of the finest grade. The wife told me not to buy her real earrings as she tends to lose or misplace them and she did not want the stress of dealing with real. We purchased one of one and a half carat cubic zirconia studs in a professional setting and she gets tons of compliments of how beautiful/amazing/brilliant her earrings are. No one would know that they were less than $200, except that my wife is terrible at keeping secrets or lying.
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Asking where to buy a $25,000 piece of jewelry on the MMM forums is like asking a vegan for advice on buying a fur coat.
LOLOL /truth
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Do it on the condition that she first spend two weeks researching the history of the diamond cartels.
Diamond companies are fucking evil.
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Diamond fanatic here! I'm more into antiques and secondary market to find good deals, but for an engagement ring for a guy who doesn't know a lot about diamonds, I'd suggest joining the Pricescope.com diamond forum and saying your future wife wants a 2 carat look and post the budget you're actually comfortable spending. You can also PM me directly if you'd like.
Online jewelers are generally less expensive because they don't have the high store front costs of brick & mortar stores. James Allen is a good choice, as you are seeing the actual stone you will purchase in high resolution. Blue Nile is a drop shipper so I'd avoid. My engagement ring is from Whiteflash (www.whiteflash.com) and another good online seller is Brian Gavin Diamonds (www.briangavindiamonds.com) and he originally started Whiteflash before he moved onto his own business.
I'd also say to stay slightly under the exact 2 carat mark, as another poster suggested. If you get a very high quality cut (like from Whiteflash, James Allen, or Brian Gavin), visually it is going to be so sparkly and the spread will likely be the same as or better than poorly cut 2 carat stones that her friends likely have.
Something like this 1.75 I VS2 Hearts & Arrows round from Brian Gavin: http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamonds/diamond-details/1.758-i-vs2-round-diamond-ags-104073209013
Or this 1.87 I SI1 A Cut Above from Whiteflash: http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3227674.htm
James Allen's site isn't working for me well right now, but if you'd like, I can look later and make a suggestion based on their stock.
Another bonus with some of these online sellers is the option to upgrade, so if you get slightly less than 2 carats and she decides later she wants larger, you can trade in the ring. Read up on these policies before buying if you think you might use them, though.
And I'm probably similar to your future wife in that nothing else about me is 'fancy' and I don't spend a lot on appearances, but I love my jewelry and wear it all the time and it brings me great joy.
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1. Costs don't end with the diamond. A piece that expensive should be insured individually, in case it is lost or stolen. So there's that cost (forever).
2. Are you making sure your diamonds are ethically sourced? You'll pay a premium for that (assuming you go the "real" diamond route), but perhaps it might be worth looking at the cost of diamonds in terms of human labor. Sure, your fiancée's hand will look pretty, but at what cost (and I'm not just talking the $25,000)?
My partner and I are getting married this year, and I'm thrilled to inherit a now-deceased family member's ring. It's (most importantly) meaningful, (also importantly) beautiful, and (less importantly, but a nice perk) free. I recognize this isn't the route for everyone, nor does everyone have access to family pieces, but this prospect is much more exciting to me than any new piece of jewelry could be.
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Asking where to buy a $25,000 piece of jewelry on the MMM forums is like asking a vegan for advice on buying a fur coat.
LOLOL /truth
ha ha I thought the same thing but he's gotten some pretty good ideas here.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5kWu1ifBGU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5kWu1ifBGU)
Why Engagement Rings Are a Scam - Adam Ruins Everything
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What I find a bit concerning is not that she wants a large/expensive diamond ring because she loves large and expensive diamonds, but because of her peer group. For many people, myself included, one of the biggest barriers to living frugally is peer expectations. If the 25k diamond is a one-time thing, I say absolutely get it for her...but I wonder what else she will need down the road that her friends have. This is particularly true as you age, when a tiny house and 10-year-old car become less and less acceptable.
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Do you know if she is open to any diamond alternatives? Moissanite is a common one, but one I came across (after I had a ring, or else this is what I would have) is Spinel. Lesser known because they are rare enough that a mass market never developed so the rarity makes them less, not more expensive. It comes in lots of colors (some bright!) but there are some colorless and grey options (I am obsessed with the greys). Like diamonds, they are singly refractive, so have a very similar shine as diamonds.
Gaze with me for a moment: https://www.google.com/search?q=light+grey+spinel&safe=active&rls=com.microsoft:en-US:IE-Address&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=mp-RVJalEoX8yQTtk4HQBA&ved=0CB8QsAQ&biw=1680&bih=994
But yeah, not everyone wants something "interesting" sometimes they want what has been established as typical. Lots of good suggestions here on getting a hold of what you are looking for an a better price.
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What I find a bit concerning is not that she wants a large/expensive diamond ring because she loves large and expensive diamonds, but because of her peer group. For many people, myself included, one of the biggest barriers to living frugally is peer expectations. If the 25k diamond is a one-time thing, I say absolutely get it for her...but I wonder what else she will need down the road that her friends have. This is particularly true as you age, when a tiny house and 10-year-old car become less and less acceptable.
Mmm, good point. OP, has your future wife pointed out any rings/styles that she personally loves or has dreamed of, or is it all, "Well, Lisa's ring is this size, and Jenny's stone is this shape, and everyone is doing platinum..."? You know her well enough that you are going to marry her, so you might have a good handle on if she really loves jewelry (does she wear any now?) or if this is a societal fitting-in thing.
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Just an idea...suggest getting a really nice 10k diamond now and upgrading to the 25k one in 10 years, when you renew your vows? Maybe by then she will not want it. Many jewelry purveyors will allow you to turn in the old one and apply the amount payed to a new purchase.
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Never buy a ring with a round number for carat. The difference in price between 0.9 and 1.0 is massive....but the difference in size is negligible. I assume the same can be said for 1.9 and 2.0 though I would never look at anything that large.
I got my wife's ring designed by a friend who is a jeweler - he made a cool setting that everyone seems to love. When I told him I wanted 1 carat he told me he'd punch me in the face if I insisted on a round number. He also told me that the other C's are much more important than size. MY SIL has a larger diamond than my wife but it's way shittier and she wants a new one. My wife gets all kinds of compliments on hers....even from strangers.
You are right in thinking that retail is a bad idea. Ask around some friends to see where they got theirs. There must be some places in your area where you can by diamonds and also a setting. Some local research will help you there. If you pay more than half of what the insurance people say the ring is worth, you've overpaid.
Also, don't tell her what you paid for the ring. She can know what it is worth but keeping the actual price secret is a nice little game....at least it is for me.
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I'm trying to imagine wearing that big a ring on my hand all the time, every day.
What a pain in the ass!
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xj2ivyQSnBs&t=1m6s
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Can she tell the difference between real and fake???? I'd be really tempted to get her a fake one and carry that secret to my grave.
That's a very bad idea on so many levels. At some point, she will probably need to get the ring resized or the prongs checked. Any jeweler who has a clue will be able to tell the difference. There are visual difference between diamonds and Moissanite, and there are testing machines for Moissanite as well.
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About to throw $25k into the incinerator. The GF is otherwise very Mustachian (she has spent less than $500 this year on clothing, almost nothing on beauty, nothing on transportation, cooks at home when possible and is a high earner), but I cannot get her to shake her desire for a 2 carat solitaire ring. Most of her friends have similar and given our jobs and peer set, this seems to be expected. Marginally, I can likely find something for closer to $20k, but I know that even at that price, the purchase will cause lasting pain in my brain.
I am at the point of surrender; so, any suggestions on how to purchase something like this? I've checked bluenile.com and jamesallen.com and am leaning towards jamesallen.com. I do not personally know any jewelers, but I know that retail is not a great way to go. Any suggestions (or commiseration) greatly appreciated.
Thanks all
Somebody please tell me this is a prank?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5kWu1ifBGU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5kWu1ifBGU)
Why Engagement Rings Are a Scam - Adam Ruins Everything
I'm surprised this wasn't posted in earlier writings.
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I'm trying to imagine wearing that big a ring on my hand all the time, every day.
What a pain in the ass!
From a personal safety standpoint, a ring this large would really get attention, and maybe not the kind your future wifey wants. Has that conversation come up?
I talked my DH out of a crazy expensive diamond ring for our engagement and settled on a rather lovely custom aquamarine trio. They are gorgeous. Fast forward 7 years and one baby...that sucker doesn't fit any more and I just don't have the time/motivation to go get it adjusted. Oh, did I mention my job has changed and wearing the ring at work would actually be a hazard? So now it sits in my jewelry box, and makes me smile that I wasn't a bigger sucker and fell for the Diamond Cartel Sales Pitch. OP, these are all very reasonable discussions to be having with the proposed wifey. If she can't have reasonable discourse on this very expensive expectation, I think you might be looking at a grim future.
Good luck to you OP, I sincerely hope you are able to bring her around to the dark MMM side!
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Can I ask what your incomes are? I think this is the largest factor in this discussion
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5kWu1ifBGU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5kWu1ifBGU)
Why Engagement Rings Are a Scam - Adam Ruins Everything
I'm surprised this wasn't posted in earlier writings.
It was. :D
I don't think providing cheaper options for a big diamond will cut it for this princess. I obviously don't know her (but I know the type), but part of 'I must have a 2 carat diamond' to keep up with the Jones' IS spending $20-25k on the ring. In the eyes of many, they are not mutually exclusive.
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Oh also... I officially nominate this thread to be moved into its correct forum category: 'Antimustachian Wall of Shame' haha
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5kWu1ifBGU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5kWu1ifBGU)
Why Engagement Rings Are a Scam - Adam Ruins Everything
I'm surprised this wasn't posted in earlier writings.
It was. :D
Ooops!
Sorry!
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I hope that someday people can come to their senses and realize that spending a shit-ton on a little trinket to go around your finger and on a wedding is one of the worst things you can do to a young couple starting out. And why? Because we worry what our peers and family may think if we don't have a fancy wedding or a rock of X size on a finger. All because those vile fuckers at deBeers brainwashed us into thinking that diamonds - amongst the most common of gemstones - are somehow rare or an integral part of engagements. It's really disgusting.
I sympathize with the OP. Because I too spent more than I wanted on a diamond ring - and it wasn't even that big! And, we had a big fancy wedding. Now, it makes me kind of sad to think of how much our families and we spent on all of this and all of the better things we could have done with it. It's really baffling that we do this.
To the OP, if you worry about what your peers will think, please, buy a fake (with her permission, of course). Your peers will never know. And you won't have help fund this stupid, stupid industry and perpetuate this insanity.
/rant
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Someone mentioned an option up-thread that I think is a perfect solution - buy something cheap now (and it's funny to me that the amount that I spent -$1200 - which I consider to be an absolutely tragic waste of an insane amount of money - is small compared to what you're thinking about spending) with the understanding that you will buy her a fancy ring on precisely your 10th wedding anniversary.
In the intervening years she will come to love her original wedding ring and grow attached to it. You might occasionally send her links to articles about how pointless and unethical diamonds are, without an apparent motive (commenting only "huh, didn't realize...", etc.)
10 years is a long time. You might have kids, add a few sister wives, whatever. The chances that she still wants a $25K ring in 10 years are very low. And if she does, then spend the $25K.
Here's a fun story: we took a few years off to travel the world and didn't want to travel with her insanely expensive $1200 ring, so we got her a $50 gold ring to travel with. Super thin, super light. Well, many years later, THAT is the ring that she wears all the time. It's more comfortable, doesn't draw attention, doesn't get caught on pockets, she can wear it to the gym, etc. We've looked into selling the $1200 ring but guess what? It's not worth shit because diamond rings are fucking worthless.
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Holy moly! I forgot that $25k rings are a thing people buy on Earth without being a millionaire already. I almost never even notice rings in the first place!
This made me think of a stat from the book The Millionaire Next Door, and that statistically the average self-made millionaire spends at most $24,000 purchasing a car. So OP, wants to spent as much on a ring as a millionaire would spend on a durable good.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5kWu1ifBGU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5kWu1ifBGU)
Why Engagement Rings Are a Scam - Adam Ruins Everything
This - a thousand times over.
A tradition is fine (even one that costs money), but one started entirely by a company that is solely seeking to maximize its profits is nothing I want a part in.
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I read this thread and couldn't determine if the op's intended is asking for a certain ring or just a certain diamond size. If it is the second the op might suggest to his gf that she start looking at rings to see what sort of designs she is drawn to. She may be surprised to find that the rings she likes best are actually smaller than the diamond size she thinks she wants. If it is peer pressure driving her to desire a certain diamond size, why not break from what her friends are doing and tell her that rather than spend that amount on a ring you would love to take her on a romantic engagement getaway? I did not receive a ring at all when my husband proposed but we took a trip to Paso Robles wine country and got such kind attention from all sorts of people when they found out we had just gotten engaged. Afterward I made a photo album of our trip and that means more to me than the ring I eventually got (which cost $400.) The whole trip was under $700 and that was with us splashing out and treating ourselves to lots of bottles of wine and a couple of pricey dinners.
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No sense in arguing because that will just lead to her sad and me feeling bad.
You and your future wife should be able to discuss $25,000 expenditures without guilt/sadness.
In the end, the ring is just an item. It is just about the least important thing about your life together. As is every other $25,000 item. You're not talking about spending $25,000 on chemotherapy. You're talking about a bauble.
If you can't discuss whether or not to spend $25,000 on a piece of jewelry in a calm and rational way with your wife, then what can you discuss?
I assure you, in your life with your wife, there will be many disagreements and discussions to be had. Avoiding these discussions because of feelings of sadness and guilt is not the path to a healthy, successful marriage.
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I'm surprised that you're judging her desires without fully understanding them. It's human to have irrational desires and unconscious needs; I never got the impression that this website was about full out asceticism.
Perhaps she has seen family or friends pity or snub others with small rings, perhaps she likes sparkly things, perhaps she had a formative experience that included a 2 carat ring, perhaps she's competitive. Perhaps she's insecure about your priorities and would like to know that you're willing to value her happiness over money gift of the magi-style.
She may not even be able to articulate why she wants this particular size ring, but I can assure you that your upcoming marriage will work better if you are willing to talk her through helping you understand why she has this desire. Once you understand it, you can better know how to fulfill it in a less expensive way. I always thought that this was the crux of mustachianism; to pursue the things that really make you happy by exploring cheaper alternate options and by cutting out the things that don't add value.
I don't see this as a decision for you to make on your own, I see this as a a decision that you and she should make together. I would like to point out that no two people will ever have all of the same values and priorities, this is an opportunity for you guys to understand how to work these things out in a mutually supportive way.
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OP - I'm sorry but wanting a $25k ring "just because" its extremely inconsiderate of your SO.
Would she also want it if she was the only one paying for it?
This would be a deal breaker for me. No I'm not lying at all. If my wife had given me this type of ultimatum, we would both be living separate lives now.
Smartest man in the entire forum, right here! 100% agree.
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I think some of the sentiments expressed here that the marriage will be a failure or the woman will be a total spendthrift are over the top.
Different people value different things. I've read plenty of posts here where somebody will say they want something frivolous like a boat. They've thought a long time about it, and really, really think it will be worth it for them. They are almost always encouraged to get it by the majority of posters. Maybe it's a coincidence that most of the posters here seem to be men.
I think the biggest difference here is that if someone loves fishing, skiiing and all other things you can do on a boat, then it adds real value to their lives and they should get the boat. If they want the boat mainly because they want to be cool for all their friends that expect them to get a nice boat, then they are being idiots.
I just can't see a situation where someone can honestly say that a $25,000 ring improves their life appreciably, other than due to an elevated standing among peers. Definitely not a mustachian purchase, but to each his own, and if the OP wants to buy it he should as it is his money. But I'd personally view this as a giant red warning sign flashing for the OP.
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add a few sister wives, whatever.
ROTFL
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Oh man. That is a lot of money. Prices for diamonds really go up astronomically by size past say the half carat mark. I love gemstones and jewelry, but has she thought this through? Does she think that if she gets a smaller stone her friends will judge or smirk at her (not if they are real friends) or that you don't love her as much as someone who gets a giant ring (of course not). Have her look at Mark Zuckerberg's wife engagement ring. Even if you are well off, don't have to spend to show it.
1) smaller but nice stone Any way to take her to stores and try on ideal cut stones that are in the 1-1.5 range? Really an ideal cut stone is going to look so much nicer than a not so nice stone.
If she is set, and you are OK with it, and it doesn't negatively impact finances (no borrowing or emptying of efund) I would go via internet, for ideal cut stones (AGS) or GIA (look at Pricescope for cheat sheet for good numbers).
2) preloved Other preloved for sale sites are in Pricescope (you will have to register to look in this section) diamond bistro, and loupetroop if you are game.
3) older cut Another option is getting an OMC or OEC (older cut stones). These typically are in lower colors (more tinted) but they can be attractive stones and less per carat than traditional round brilliants. You would typically find these in estate but also internet estate websites specializing in jewelry.
also 4) colored stone. A 2 carat sapphire will be much more reasonably priced and yet still gorgeous. But keep in mind sapphires do look smaller by carat weight than same size diamond.
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http://www.jewelsbygrace.com/loose-diamonds/2-01-to-3-00/2-51ct-round-brilliant-bgd-blue-ags000-j-si1.html
Just an example. This one is a modern cut but usually the antique cuts are more competitive.
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I think some of the sentiments expressed here that the marriage will be a failure or the woman will be a total spendthrift are over the top.
Different people value different things. I've read plenty of posts here where somebody will say they want something frivolous like a boat. They've thought a long time about it, and really, really think it will be worth it for them. They are almost always encouraged to get it by the majority of posters. Maybe it's a coincidence that most of the posters here seem to be men.
I think the biggest difference here is that if someone loves fishing, skiiing and all other things you can do on a boat, then it adds real value to their lives and they should get the boat. If they want the boat mainly because they want to be cool for all their friends that expect them to get a nice boat, then they are being idiots.
I just can't see a situation where someone can honestly say that a $25,000 ring improves their life appreciably, other than due to an elevated standing among peers. Definitely not a mustachian purchase, but to each his own, and if the OP wants to buy it he should as it is his money. But I'd personally view this as a giant red warning sign flashing for the OP.
Well, as a few of us have noted, having a nice diamond ring does bring us joy on a daily basis. Mine is going on 30 years of daily joy with no sign of stopping. We didn't pay $25K for it, but we did pay a fair amount and I don't regret it for an instance. (On the other hand, I do regret my big fancy wedding that my parents paid for.) You may not see that. I see a boat as a total maintenance PIA and a hole in the water in which one throws money. We value different things.
I think the OP needs to have a conversation about this with his fiancé, and they need to come to understand if a ring that will make her sufficiently happy can be had at a lower budget, and there are other options than paying retail for a 2 carat stone. Maybe she wants it because she wants it or maybe it's because she feels it will give her status with her peers. I'm sure many a boat has been purchased to impress one's friends.
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Well, as a few of us have noted, having a nice diamond ring does bring us joy on a daily basis. Mine is going on 30 years of daily joy with no sign of stopping.
On the other hand, I know many women who have stopped wearing their nice diamond ring.
They often stop when they become pregnant, and then get used to nor wearing it. They stop if their weight fluctuates. They stop due to arthritis. They stop because they have to wash their hands a lot at work. They stop because it snags on things. They stop because it became too wide/heavy/whatever when combined with the wedding band.
A $25,000 ring is a lot of ring to wear around on a daily basis.
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OP, arguing about money and money problems is one of the major reasons people get divorced. Think about that before you go through with this $25k purchase and whether or not you truely believe that this will be the last ridiculously expensive trinket your spouse will ever demand. (PS divorce is really expensive too)
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I'm trying to imagine wearing that big a ring on my hand all the time, every day.
What a pain in the ass!
DW figured this out pretty quick. Wash dishes? Change a diaper? Dig in the garden? Go hiking and climb up some rocks? Haul some sticks or rocks in the yard? Put on a latex glove? Put on a leather glove? Or a glove of any kind when it's cold out? Major PIA. And then there's the "oh crap the soap made my ring come off in the sink and I think it's in the garbage disposal" moments occasionally.
The last thing she wants to worry about is losing a multi-thousand dollar ring. Make it $25k and that's some serious brow furrowing worry right there guys.
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http://www.jewelsbygrace.com/loose-diamonds/2-01-to-3-00/2-51ct-round-brilliant-bgd-blue-ags000-j-si1.html
Just an example. This one is a modern cut but usually the antique cuts are more competitive.
What's astounding is that though that's the price, if you owned such a gem, there is no way you could get that price for it. There's a cartel.
It's a chunk of carbon, and has no inherent value.
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I think the biggest difference here is that if someone loves fishing, skiiing and all other things you can do on a boat, then it adds real value to their lives and they should get the boat. If they want the boat mainly because they want to be cool for all their friends that expect them to get a nice boat, then they are being idiots.
I just can't see a situation where someone can honestly say that a $25,000 ring improves their life appreciably, other than due to an elevated standing among peers. Definitely not a mustachian purchase, but to each his own, and if the OP wants to buy it he should as it is his money. But I'd personally view this as a giant red warning sign flashing for the OP.
+1 Boats are instrumentally valuable in getting you out on the water and around the outdoors. You can spend hours or days at a time on a boat with your family and friends (or just yourself). Depending on how big the boat, you can sleep in it and travel to other places in it. It's transportation, entertainment, a source of food (enables fishing), social engagement, maybe a vacation in itself (sailing to the Bahamas, for example). I don't own a boat because I don't think I would use it enough to justify the expense (up front and recurring over time).
Diamonds are tiny lumps of crystallized carbon that are shiny and most regard as pretty. But they don't really do anything (ignoring industrial applications like using them to grind other materials) other than sit there and look pretty.
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Well, you've been given a lot of food for thought. Don't let other people tell you how you should feel. This is something that you and your girlfriend will need to work out.
Rarely do people have completely matching values (what and exactly how much should be paid for a particular thing). But there should be enough of an overlap that both of you feel comfortable with outcome. And she should be comfortable with fact that maybe a $25K ring doesn't align with your values? But there should be some common ground and these are all good things to discuss before marriage.
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This thread has drawn me out of near-lurkerdom - OP, may I make a slightly different suggestion from any I've yet seen?
You: "Honey, I love you and want you to be happy with your engagement ring and us to be happy in our marriage. Since you have an idea about what kind of ring you'd like, why don't we both start saving up now and shop for it together? We won't buy one on credit."
Then do it. Start a special "ring" bank account. Hang pix on the refrigerator of one(s) she likes for motivation. Make a thermometer chart if you want of how your savings is accumulating. Don't you dare neglect all the other saving you are doing for emergency funds, retirement, paying your bills in full and on-time, the actual upcoming wedding, etc. - you and she should understand that this ring saving effort is in ADDITION to all of that (not instead of).
Just maybe, she'll eventually realize that saving this much $ is harder than she thought and the magic ring fairy won't just be dropping one on her finger.
Maybe she'll tire of saving and find one she likes that actually comes in line with what you've saved up to that point.
Maybe she'll think you're a cheap-ass nut-job and tell you that her having to help with the cost takes away the magic and so long, Luther...
Or maybe you'll actually save up for a pricey one that you both like and at least worked together to make it happen.
In any case, good luck!
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Buy her a ring-creation-monstrosity that's 1.5 pounds of gold and proudly announce, 'here honey, now that will hold its value AND impress the neighbors. And hey, no Africans died, we just removed a mountainside." Gah.
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Well, as a few of us have noted, having a nice diamond ring does bring us joy on a daily basis. Mine is going on 30 years of daily joy with no sign of stopping. We didn't pay $25K for it, but we did pay a fair amount and I don't regret it for an instance. (On the other hand, I do regret my big fancy wedding that my parents paid for.) You may not see that. I see a boat as a total maintenance PIA and a hole in the water in which one throws money. We value different things.
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I agree that people should spend things on what they value and at the end of the day that is essentially what everyone does. Every spending decision above and beyond basic subsistence needs is a value decision between a few factors- mainly fun, comfort/convenience, status and freedom (not an exhaustive list, perhaps throw in a few others like family and charity/environment, too).
I was merely pointing to the fact that the OP implied that his fiance wanted a big ring merely because that is what is expected of her peers. If someone came on here asking whether they should buy a boat because it seems to be what all the friends are doing, I'd also tell them they are crazy.
And I agree with you regarding boats, I'd never get one because I don't enjoy them enough to work another few years to have one. But some people truly do, and good for them.
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Buy her a ring-creation-monstrosity that's 1.5 pounds of gold and proudly announce, 'here honey, now that will hold its value AND impress the neighbors. And hey, no Africans died, we just removed a mountainside." Gah.
This is a great idea! At least gold mostly holds its value.
Just try asking at the jewelry shop - "if I came in with a 1.5ct diamond, how much would you give me for it?" They'll be like, "well... we don't really..." Ask at your local pawnshop too. Ask that question about an equivalent amount of gold and you'll get a different answer. Gold is worth money. Gold is (relatively) fungible. Diamonds are worthless forever.
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Okay, I admit this thread was so long I did not read most of it. I just had to chime in with:
1) I wanted a solitaire when we first got engaged.
2) 10 year anniversary is in April and I want to sell it back and get a puzzle ring and invest the difference! That'd be way cooler....
Just sayin'....YMMV
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Buy her a ring-creation-monstrosity that's 1.5 pounds of gold and proudly announce, 'here honey, now that will hold its value AND impress the neighbors. And hey, no Africans died, we just removed a mountainside." Gah.
This is a great idea! At least gold mostly holds its value.
Just try asking at the jewelry shop - "if I came in with a 1.5ct diamond, how much would you give me for it?" They'll be like, "well... we don't really..." Ask at your local pawnshop too. Ask that question about an equivalent amount of gold and you'll get a different answer. Gold is worth money. Gold is (relatively) fungible. Diamonds are worthless forever.
Plus you could have that 1.5 lb of gold crafted into some golden brass knuckles. A chick with 1.5 lb golden brass knuckles would be pretty bad ass. And it'll still be worth whatever 1.5 lb of gold is worth in the future instead of a severely depreciated diamond.
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I've scanned all the comments and don't see Costco mentioned. It's worth considering. I've told this tale elsewhere on this forum, but I don't see here, so skip this if you've read it before...
Before now-DH proposed, he asked if he should have a ring first or if we should pick one out together. I replied that most of my long-time married friends who had big rocks ended up not wearing them. I asked him to go to Costco and select a band with a few small diamonds and be done with it. Well, I'm here to tell you that I'm now sporting a two-carat sparkler and damn, I love it! It's not a solitaire, it's five square-cut stones, so it didn't cost a fortune. It makes me smile every day to think that this ring is what he wanted me to have.
If your income can support this purchase, and better still, if you can find a work around to reduce the cost, go for it! There really is something to that "Happy wife, happy life" saw.
Here's another story. A woman I worked with, who looked like Barbie (the bitch!), told her husband-to-be that she would like a ring that said "Fuck off, I'm married." He bought her the most beautiful ROCK and they are living happily ever after.
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I went through a phase of wanting a fancy ring, so I sort of understand. If she wants something special (which I did), why not go to a reputable/fancy auction house? They will have lovely antique rings for much less. If you live in the bay area, you might try Bonham's. You will pay a buyer's premium of 15-20% on top of the actual auction price but they will not sell you complete junk at a ridiculous price. You look at the ring/try it on before the auction during the preview. You can also review the ring online before even going to the preview. This experience might appeal to someone who wants something special and who might be willing to wait a little bit. She might pick out a lovely ring that is more in the $7500 range but has a big/fancy stone. Hope this helps.
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In my earlier post, I neglected to mention a story from DH's first marriage. She insisted on a big honker and wore it every where. One day she was riding the subway in Manhattan. To her surprise, a homeless man wandered up to the post where she was holding on. He was captivated by her ring and licked her finger. Be careful what you wish for.
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Pawn Shop if I had to buy something that large: That being said, I've been happily married and my wife still has her diamond ring that cost around $600.
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If I were forced to get a ring like this I would at least be smart enough not to pay retail. I would go to the Diamond District on a personal recommendation to a specific dealer and buy a loose stone. Although I have been obsessed with blood diamond my whole life and would never wear one because there's really no way to know if it's an ethically mined stone or not.
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So in summary, we found out two things we knew we were going to find out:
- Engagement rings are ridiculously politicized, and everyone has an opinion, and on this forum naturally it skews towards "what the fuck are you doing" which while probably correct, is not terribly useful to the OP, and
- Much more usefully, the OP found that he could get an "appropriate" ring for a third of the price he thought, which (regardless of 1/3 being worse than 0/3) is a pretty good day for the OP, yes?
So I suggest that literally everything useful on the topic has already been said, and now we're just circlejerking.
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If I were forced to get a ring like this I would at least be smart enough not to pay retail. I would go to the Diamond District on a personal recommendation to a specific dealer and buy a loose stone. Although I have been obsessed with blood diamond my whole life and would never wear one because there's really no way to know if it's an ethically mined stone or not.
Brilliant Earth sells Canadian mined diamonds and has really pretty settings. Canadians don't kill anyone mining diamonds. They are honest and trustworthy.
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I wish there was a like button. I recently got married in August and my wedding was small and about $8,500 not incl about $5,500 for honeymoon and $3-5k for my ring from Blue Nile. All I can say is good luck sir.
That is a tough one. Have you talked about why it is important to her to have such an expensive ring? What is the root of this want (keeping up with friends? Childhood fantasy? temporary wedding related insanity? a proof of love?) Maybe getting to the root of why she wants it will help you come up with a workable solution :)
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I'm gonna do you a solid mate.
Go to your local pawn shop, buy two wedding bands, male size, at least a size 7. The average female has a size 6 or smaller finger (they has smaller hands, easy science).
Take those two bands, and have one polished if its relatively new, have it melted with flux if its not. Your average generic local blacksmith guild or club in your area can do this for you (Yes they exist, yes its awesome, and yes, we make all kinds of really awesome shit.)
Next go to a local computer, and look up online for local jewelrysmithing schools in your region, as well as art schools.
A school with a arts program (pottery and mechanical engineer is your magic button).
Put up an add in the local craiglist region that your looking for a custom clay mold, and that you'll pay a few hundred for it.
This will make it rain upon you like no other things in this world. College students at arts programs are heavily talented, and exceptionally poor, both because of constant need of study materials, and because of college. most liberal arts schools are in fact, more expensive than most other schools.
After you do this, the overall end product will be a custom negative mold of your ring, minus gem of course.
The site that I gave you sells damn near every gem on the planet, including ones you havent heard of. I studied gemology for over 3 years, trust me, I know.
This will allow for you to get both the ring forged, and the gem. All you need after that is to pay a small gem install fee, which your local jeweler can do, for pretty little actually.
Tadaaah! You have officially become a 2nd rate Zales on small scale.
You have a custom finished ring for very little, far less than the store will charge you. Your ring is a unique ring, one of a kind more specifically, and you save 10s of thousands.
Now go put that money in the bank you tigah! Save dat 512k college plan, and make dem babies!!!
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I will say I always thought I would get my wife a nice Diamond when we hit millionaire status. Now that we're close, it just seems comical.
If I keep working for fun (which I'm leaning towards doing), I may surprise her one day with a nice solitaire from Costco. I'd only do that once I'm long past FU money
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As long as you get a good clarity, color, etc you are fine.
I would like to caution the OP not to take this advice....do NOT expect your future fiance to be happy with a smaller ring that is of better quality. If she's already making noise about size, do yourself a favor and get her a big ring that is lower quality. I made the mistake of going high quality/smaller stone once...it's not worth the trouble.
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I will say I always thought I would get my wife a nice Diamond when we hit millionaire status. Now that we're close, it just seems comical.
If I keep working for fun (which I'm leaning towards doing), I may surprise her one day with a nice solitaire from Costco. I'd only do that once I'm long past FU money
My wife's ring came from Sam's Club, and she thinks it's the most magical ring ever.
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So in summary, we found out two things we knew we were going to find out:
- Engagement rings are ridiculously politicized, and everyone has an opinion, and on this forum naturally it skews towards "what the fuck are you doing" which while probably correct, is not terribly useful to the OP, and
- Much more usefully, the OP found that he could get an "appropriate" ring for a third of the price he thought, which (regardless of 1/3 being worse than 0/3) is a pretty good day for the OP, yes?
So I suggest that literally everything useful on the topic has already been said, and now we're just circlejerking.
+1 (although, I would say the word "politicized" doesn't exactly fit)
So go on you young man and get married!
Now tell us about your lassie -- Great personality? Things in common? Hot looking?
One other small thing I forgot to mention --- In my opinion put off the wedding as long as possible. So like at least 2 years from the proposal point. Get hardcore with the savings in that time so you can start off with a boatload of money instead of a boatload of debt.
Good luck!
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No sense in arguing because that will just lead to her sad and me feeling bad.
You and your future wife should be able to discuss $25,000 expenditures without guilt/sadness.
In the end, the ring is just an item. It is just about the least important thing about your life together. As is every other $25,000 item. You're not talking about spending $25,000 on chemotherapy. You're talking about a bauble.
If you can't discuss whether or not to spend $25,000 on a piece of jewelry in a calm and rational way with your wife, then what can you discuss?
I assure you, in your life with your wife, there will be many disagreements and discussions to be had. Avoiding these discussions because of feelings of sadness and guilt is not the path to a healthy, successful marriage.
+1
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Now go put that money in the bank you tigah! Save dat 512k college plan, and make dem babies!!!
I got a kick out of this. Lol.
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I'm a woman and I fully admit to being on the vain side, and not terribly mustachian about clothing and shoes.
But $25k is crazy to spend on a ring. Please don't do it. I don't understand why the size of a piece of carbon on someone else's finger has such an impact on your girlfriend. I just don't.
My DH spent $5k on our ring (in 2005) and I thought that was crazy. I'm still wearing it everyday, but I still feel like it was a crazy amount to spend on something so indulgent. Even if you were willing to halve your budget (i.e., to 12k), you would still find amazingly beautiful rings available. And I would argue that even for 1/5th of your budget, you would have something unquestionably beautiful.
It is just baffling to me that someone would set such a store on the status of a ring. I have friends who have giant rocks (I haven't asked, but it must be over 2k). I have friends who have much smaller rocks. It doesn't impact our friendship in any way whatsoever. It doesn't impact the relationships or the marriages (they are all good, regardless of rock size).
All this to say, I hope your GF can take a step back and see how ridiculous it is to allow deBeers and 'keeping up with the Joneses' to dictate this.
Maybe it's different because I'm in Canada, but having a giant ring just isn't a huge deal here. Some people have big ones, some have small ones. It just doesn't matter.
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Now tell us about your lassie -- Great personality? Things in common? Hot looking?
Literally, it would have to be a 'yes' to all 3 to be worth $25k (plus interest as i'm assuming they're not going to buy this with cash)
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I'm gonna do you a solid mate.
Go to your local pawn shop, buy two wedding bands, male size, at least a size 7. The average female has a size 6 or smaller finger (they has smaller hands, easy science).
Take those two bands, and have one polished if its relatively new, have it melted with flux if its not. Your average generic local blacksmith guild or club in your area can do this for you (Yes they exist, yes its awesome, and yes, we make all kinds of really awesome shit.)
Next go to a local computer, and look up online for local jewelrysmithing schools in your region, as well as art schools.
A school with a arts program (pottery and mechanical engineer is your magic button).
Put up an add in the local craiglist region that your looking for a custom clay mold, and that you'll pay a few hundred for it.
This will make it rain upon you like no other things in this world. College students at arts programs are heavily talented, and exceptionally poor, both because of constant need of study materials, and because of college. most liberal arts schools are in fact, more expensive than most other schools.
After you do this, the overall end product will be a custom negative mold of your ring, minus gem of course.
The site that I gave you sells damn near every gem on the planet, including ones you havent heard of. I studied gemology for over 3 years, trust me, I know.
This will allow for you to get both the ring forged, and the gem. All you need after that is to pay a small gem install fee, which your local jeweler can do, for pretty little actually.
Tadaaah! You have officially become a 2nd rate Zales on small scale.
You have a custom finished ring for very little, far less than the store will charge you. Your ring is a unique ring, one of a kind more specifically, and you save 10s of thousands.
Now go put that money in the bank you tigah! Save dat 512k college plan, and make dem babies!!!
Which site?
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Hi, my name is LibraryJoy and I love diamonds. Hi, LibraryJoy. (I feel like I'm at an addicted to diamonds anonymous help group!)
I'm a good mustachian. I make my lunch every day and bring it to work. I walk to work. I watch movies at home instead of the movie theatre. I use the library. I do so many extremely MMM things, but whether it is marketing or just the natural beauty of shiny pretty things - I love me some diamonds! And considering that (some of) humankind has been obsessed with jewellery and adornment for centuries, I don't think it's ALL a huge marketing scam. I also think it could be very, very hard, to be the only woman with a mustachian-approved ring, when all your closest friends are rocking the big bling.
My engagement ring cost $175 with the understanding that when we could afford it, we'd get some bigger bling :D That could be ten years from now, but I'm a very patient woman and my friends' left forefingers are unadorned.
Practical advice:
- If you're dropping a big chunk of change, you're going to want to make sure it's the style she wants. Are you considering picking it out together? That might be a safer way to go. Otherwise make sure you know ring size and the style she likes.
- I strongly believe that most people would not know the difference between moissanite and diamond. Or white sapphire, and diamond. Cubic zirconia is not very durable and is not going to stand the test of time. Find out if your girlfriend is open to a $2000 moissanite ring, + a trip around the world ($23,000).
- If you're looking to buy a diamond and get a good deal, post on pricescope. Lots of knowledgeable people on there, and they love diamonds. They "get it".
- If you can buy vintage or second-hand, you'll save a bundle.
Good luck, OP! I hope she says yes, and I hope you find the perfect ring. Feel free to let us know if this will break the bank or not, because if you're rich, we should all stop being so huffy!
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Check out the Rocky Talk forum on Pricescope. An excellent resource for getting the best jewelry (often custom made) at the best price. The posters are incredibly helpful.
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Dude, what kind of circles are you running in where a 25k ring is the minimum acceptable stone? Maybe it is time to evaluate the peer group instead of asking for ring advice.
I grew up with a family that had money and my peer group is mostly six figure earners, but I can't tell you the last time I thought about the size of my ring or wished it was bigger. It is a piece of jewelry that I like because I think it is beautiful and it has meaning to me.
I can't even imagine wearing a piece of jewelry that costs TWENTY-FIVE-THOUSAND-DOLLARS on a daily basis. Wouldn't you be afraid of getting mugged, like, all the time?
Also, I just want to reiterate that you're asking for advice on a 25k ring on Mr. Money Mustache...
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Whoah,
If you need to ask the price -- it's too much.
Manufactured diamond all the way for a 2carat. Who is to say that your friends (some of them) did not go that route?
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I can sort of understand the OP's lady's sentiment. I don't (think I) share the same desires, but I definitely run with people who do. My friends are good people and phenomenal friends. They're just not Mustachian. Two of my close friends just got married, and the bride has a two carat diamond. The groom wanted the bride to have that ring just as much as the bride wanted it herself. To them, it's certainly a symbol of their relationship (they've been together for 11 years), but I think it's clearly a status symbol as well. It really is very pretty, and the bride gets compliments on it often. The unfortunate thing is, the groom was telling me right before they got married that they have "negative money." He makes a very hefty salary, but he has tons of law school loans and then he dropped a ton of money on the ring and the wedding. In their situation, I think it's a complete no-brainer. Forego the giant rock and the fancy wedding and get your financial footing! But if you already have your finances in order, I could definitely see the temptation to get a big diamond. "It's symbolic, pretty, and will last forever!!!" I know it's not smart, and just about every fiber in my being cringes at the thought, but I do understand it on some level. I hope that if and when my time comes to tie the knot, I'll be able to resist that temptation.
The power of marketing and peer pressure really is incredible. I have a friend who told her teacher boyfriend that she needs "at least" two carats, and I've heard someone else say "3 carats is the new standard." The mind reels.
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Yes, but if you can't ignore peer pressure, mustachianism will never work. It's the road less traveled.
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(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_yuQ5RUbMnhs/S6o0pwiO3yI/AAAAAAAAAAU/2pJHEupebKM/s320/i-love-shiny-things.png)
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I have a ring valued $10k. It is slightly under 1ct and the halo setting brings up the total ct wt to 2ct. I wasn't even aware my now DH was looking at rings with that value. I told him to get me a red ruby ring (thinking this would be cheaper and even sent him links encouraging garnet or other red gemstone rings from amazon). He said to me while he did the research that it was hard to find rubies that were "eye clean" so he went for a diamond. It was more important to him that I get this nice ring.
I have to admit, I do enjoy it alot and wear it all the time.
There should be at least some compromise though. You're in the more difficult position that person you are going to give the ring too has higher demands than you whereas for me, the positions were reversed.
I wish you luck working out a middle way and this can be an indicator on how you guys will work thru other problems that may arise later in your marriage.
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How twisted is it that some people's idea of the great symbol of their relationship is something that is really morally reprehensible if you care one iota about already disadvantaged Africans?
But I guess if it's pretty...
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If I couldn't articulate to my planned bride how spending $25,000 on a ring was a bad idea, I would question how we would manage a lifetime of being together. Oil and water just don't mix. It's not her fault she's been brainwashed or is a moron, but if you marry her, it will be your fault.
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My DH was in law school when we got engaged. I was NOT expecting a proposal when it came....he had debt and no paid employment. He purchased a 1 CT at a retail store ON CREDIT - 25% interest.
Of course I didn't know that during the proposal-thought maybe it was his grandmothers or something because it was on a plain "proposal" band. Now the story we tell all our friends is how I bought my own ring because the first thing I did was pay off that insane credit line with my own savings...."Funny", they wouldn't let us return the ring because I tried with the idea we could get the same size for way less at Costco. I convinced DH that matching bands were the way to go for the wedding rings - no other diamonds.
For our 10 year he got me an anniversary band at a discounter (because too many people thought the one band looked like we were only engaged). He paid cash.
Don't buy it if you can't afford it with CASH, and please don't get ripped off at the retail store.
Also, a diamond cut with a thin girth will look larger than a diamond with a thick girth....If she is going for "looks bigger" - although a better cut diamond will sparkle more.
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Diamonds have got to be one of the biggest scams financially. First off they are pretty much worthless pieces of compressed hi-temp carbon that are plentiful YET the supply is artificially controlled by a diamond cartel to give it false worth. Third world labor to "cut" the diamond pretty much. The resell market (buying used diamonds for nothing and putting them back into the market as "new"-who can tell? It's pretty ridiculous. I thought my wife (who is earthy, green, etc) was asking for too much for a $8K ring, sounds like I got off cheap. My ring cost $100 (cobalt), I ordered it online. 2 carats? I guess in America, where the Kardashians rule TV, everyone feels entitled to a large diamond ring to make themselves feel better. Dumb.
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Coming out of lurkdom just to respond to this thread.
I love diamonds... there is my antimustachian theme... that being said others on here love their cars... where will your car be in 50 years? I think her diamond will still be there...
Best place to become educated in diamonds, cut (which rules), clarity, and color.
www.pricescope.com
Loads of info on online places to buy diamonds, where to get "vintage" diamonds (btw, OEC's rock), and on their show me the bling forum, lots of pretty pictures for inspiration.
After all, what is the point of mustachian... spend money on what is important to you, and if the diamond is the thing, be sure you get the best for the money you are going spend it on.
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Ya know, something important hasn't come up here. OP: What Is Your Financial Status? Are you FIRE? Are you well on the way with a nice hefty slave crew of worker dollars chugging along on your behalf? Or are you already saddled with a student loan, a mortgage or even less savory, a car loan or credit card debt? Is $25K actually a reasonable number for you to spend on something that's apparently very very important to your beloved, or is it a crazy making hole you'll have to dig yourself out of? Looking over the post, in most of our opinions a $25K ding is worthy of a serious face punch, but just how bad is it?
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No way in hell. Nope. No. You need to stop this shit.
I paid $4,500 because my parents essentially demanded that I do it and offered to pay for half. I still, to this day, feel that it was a mistake to pay that much money for an item of almost no value.
And you are being pressured to spend TEN TIMES WHAT I DID. No. No nononoononononoononono!
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I really think it is something a lot of girls have had in their head since a young age. The power of marketing, I guess. Reason goes out the window.
As a girl, I just wanted to point out that this is not at all true. Sure, the media might make you think that, but it is not true in the real world.
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+1
I didn't care that much about the diamond, I did care about the actual rings, so we picked them together. I knew I would rarely wear it (diamonds and labs do not go together well).
If I had known then what I know now, I would not have chosen the style we did. To make the diamond look bigger (as if I cared) it was mounted high. That meant it caught on everything - and this is Canada, I wear gloves even in the car. So the ring sat in its case 364 days a year. I could have worn it a bit more if it had been mounted flush.
I really think it is something a lot of girls have had in their head since a young age. The power of marketing, I guess. Reason goes out the window.
As a girl, I just wanted to point out that this is not at all true. Sure, the media might make you think that, but it is not true in the real world.
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There is no way an expensive car is mustachian. There is no way that a $25k ring is mustachian.
I will never understand the "well, someone else here likes something considered wasteful, so it's totally okay by MMM standards to waste in this way too" logic.
Buy what you want. Live the life that you want. But don't be surprised if justifying ridiculously outrageous spending results in facepunches.
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I've been thinking about your question, and the replies, for a couple days now. I'm a girl who is pretty mustachian. That said, I support your decision to move ahead and buy her what she is asking for. 25k in light of a lifetime is not that much, and it's something she will wear everyday, something that is clearly important to her. You have noted that desire for fine things is not a pattern, and that she herself brings in a good salary. So many people have a 'weak spot', something that doesn't really make sense but are nonetheless passionate about. I hope you will ignore the naysayers on this thread, and are able to get to a place where you can look forward to buying the ring because you know it will really make her happy and you want her to be happy.
Best wishes for the years ahead.
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I've been thinking about your question, and the replies, for a couple days now. I'm a girl who is pretty mustachian. That said, I support your decision to move ahead and buy her what she is asking for. 25k in light of a lifetime is not that much, and it's something she will wear everyday, something that is clearly important to her. You have noted that desire for fine things is not a pattern, and that she herself brings in a good salary. So many people have a 'weak spot', something that doesn't really make sense but are nonetheless passionate about. I hope you will ignore the naysayers on this thread, and are able to get to a place where you can look forward to buying the ring because you know it will really make her happy and you want her to be happy.
Best wishes for the years ahead.
This, Exactly. Well said, Sarita.
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Whatever you spend, do it graciously. I love my husband but still feel a little sad that he was so tight when we were ring shopping, complaining several times during the process. (looking at a few hundred dollars when we were about to buy a house with 40% down, good savings and earnings). I wasn't demanding and would have been happy with almost anything but the attitude upset me.
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I've been thinking about your question, and the replies, for a couple days now. I'm a girl who is pretty mustachian. That said, I support your decision to move ahead and buy her what she is asking for. 25k in light of a lifetime is not that much, and it's something she will wear everyday, something that is clearly important to her. You have noted that desire for fine things is not a pattern, and that she herself brings in a good salary. So many people have a 'weak spot', something that doesn't really make sense but are nonetheless passionate about. I hope you will ignore the naysayers on this thread, and are able to get to a place where you can look forward to buying the ring because you know it will really make her happy and you want her to be happy.
Best wishes for the years ahead.
Yes I agree......that's why I mentioned earlier that their income and income potential is the most important factor here. HOWEVER! This kind of purchase would be out of the question for most men. Even if you make $100k salary and living in a high COL area like Los Angeles, this kind of expectation from a woman would make me question her judgment and priorities.
For me personally.....someone who makes around $80k and living in LA, I would question the relationship at the first mention of such a purchase.
Money, sex, honesty and mutual respect! All 4 need to be in order for a marriage
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I'm surprised that you're judging her desires without fully understanding them. It's human to have irrational desires and unconscious needs; I never got the impression that this website was about full out asceticism.
Perhaps she has seen family or friends pity or snub others with small rings, perhaps she likes sparkly things, perhaps she had a formative experience that included a 2 carat ring, perhaps she's competitive. Perhaps she's insecure about your priorities and would like to know that you're willing to value her happiness over money gift of the magi-style.
She may not even be able to articulate why she wants this particular size ring, but I can assure you that your upcoming marriage will work better if you are willing to talk her through helping you understand why she has this desire. Once you understand it, you can better know how to fulfill it in a less expensive way. I always thought that this was the crux of mustachianism; to pursue the things that really make you happy by exploring cheaper alternate options and by cutting out the things that don't add value.
I don't see this as a decision for you to make on your own, I see this as a a decision that you and she should make together. I would like to point out that no two people will ever have all of the same values and priorities, this is an opportunity for you guys to understand how to work these things out in a mutually supportive way.
This is another smart post among many smart posts here.
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I'm surprised that you're judging her desires without fully understanding them. It's human to have irrational desires and unconscious needs; I never got the impression that this website was about full out asceticism.
You make it sound like it is Ok to be irrational. This website is about being rational. I am convinced that everyone who has a diamond ring would not know the difference between a cubic and a real without an appraiser telling them. Saying it is OK for someone to drop $25k on a ring is about as anti mustachian as it gets. There is no utility in a ring. It is a liability not an asset. A boat, car, music instrument, or other frivolous asset has some utility. A ring has no value, but to show how wealthy you and therefore it is antimustachian.
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I've been thinking about your question, and the replies, for a couple days now. I'm a girl who is pretty mustachian. That said, I support your decision to move ahead and buy her what she is asking for. 25k in light of a lifetime is not that much, and it's something she will wear everyday, something that is clearly important to her. You have noted that desire for fine things is not a pattern, and that she herself brings in a good salary. So many people have a 'weak spot', something that doesn't really make sense but are nonetheless passionate about. I hope you will ignore the naysayers on this thread, and are able to get to a place where you can look forward to buying the ring because you know it will really make her happy and you want her to be happy.
Best wishes for the years ahead.
I agree, and I'd say it's not about the ring. I personally have no desire for an expensive ring, but I wouldn't want to be married to a man who would deny me something I really, really wanted -- not when that one want isn't part of a pattern of expensive choices.
I think some posters here have a cheap-at-all-costs type of attitude. They seem incapable, almost afraid, of spending on something nice. As if a once-in-a-lifetime purchase will wreck an otherwise solid budget. As if that one choice will open the floodgates to a consumer-based lifetime. If you can't have the things you want, what's the purpose of working so hard? Is retirement worth sacraficing the material things that you really, really want?
Having said that, I think you should be able to find a 2K ring for considerably less than 25K.
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I thought my GF was being incredibly unreasonable when she asked me to spend £2,000 on a ring. Now I have gotten over the shock of it, it doesn't seem too unreasonable compared with what her broke friends had received, the mind boggles on that one! (Especially next to your request for a $25,000 USD ring!).
I must admit I was initially thinking more of spending around £1,000, and I still thought I was being generous given that I had a net worth of £1000 at the time. It caused some uncomfortable moments, especially as I'm not remotely religious and believe that children are far more of a commitment than marriage. The whole prospect of an engagement ring costing that much really upset me.
I have since sorted out my finances, and have attempted talking my lady into a vintage £2,000 ring, at least that way we get more rock for the money and I don't end up buying something that instantly depreciates in value, meaning if the worst came to worst and we parted ways we could sell it on for roughly what we paid for it. She's tried pulling the its 'bad luck' BS at first but think she might be coming round to the idea. Since planting the seed I've decided just to buy a nice ring and not tell her where it's come from or what it's worth. If she doesn't like it, she can sell it and buy whatever she wants but she'll be footing the difference (I assume the prospect of depleting her own savings will fast become unattractive). I appreciate this sounds like I'm being cheap still, and I don't want my girlfriend to miss out on what she has come to expect from life, I know I will pay for it in the long run when I want to buy that dream road bike, or take go on that stag do with my friends in years to come, so I guess I'll cave in and let her have what she wants eventually, after all £2k is small potatoes in the grand scheme of life. I know I have wasted a hell of a lot more in my pre-mustachian years.
I'm not really even bothered about marriage so splurging on an engagement ring has caused a fair few arguments at home. I ended coming off sounding cheap, so I have given up arguing and will fork for a pricey, but there will be no fancy pants wedding or honeymoon, I sincerely hope it's worth it, she's getting the ring she wants on one condition...
She's paying for the wedding bands.
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There is no way an expensive car is mustachian. There is no way that a $25k ring is mustachian.
I will never understand the "well, someone else here likes something considered wasteful, so it's totally okay by MMM standards to waste in this way too" logic.
Buy what you want. Live the life that you want. But don't be surprised if justifying ridiculously outrageous spending results in facepunches.
This. A $25k ring is unequivocally un-Mustachian. How she feels about it or how frugal she is in other parts of her life has nothing to do with nothing. This is an un-Mustachian purchase. Period.
With that said, Mustachianism isn't an end-all be-all philosophy, and shouldn't be. The degree to which you want to live a Mustachian lifestyle is completely up to you and your fiancé. If you and your fiancé understand the implications of spending $25k on a ring (i.e. working longer to reach FIRE), and are prepared to accept those implications, then by all means buy the ring. It won't be a Mustachian purchase, and we'll throw some face punches your way (hey, it's what we do), but then we'll forgive you =)
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Lots of really good advice here! Too bad OP didn't come back and answer the important questions like income situation and underlying reasons for the GF to "need" that ring.
I gotta say a $25k ring will certainly look like a clown-ring unless you are married to Amazon Women in the Mood, in which case:
(http://i.imgur.com/yynno5Q.jpg)
I agree, and I'd say it's not about the ring. I personally have no desire for an expensive ring, but I wouldn't want to be married to a man who would deny me something I really, really wanted -- not when that one want isn't part of a pattern of expensive choices.
Kind of a chicken and egg problem here: you wouldn't want to be married to a man who would deny you the ring, and he wouldn't want to be married to a woman that would demand a ring.
They are beautiful rings and not to gawdy or pretentious at all... but still cost $7K.
Now the idea of having that much money tied up in jewelry just undoes me. But so does the idea of letting them go for less than half what we paid for them. I'm just not sure I can stomach that. We're trying to decide if we hold on them and make them heirlooms we can pass down when the time comes or just sell them and be done with it.
Well if you can only sell the rings for, say $2k, does it bother you to have that much tied up in jewelry? Because that's what you actually have tied up -- what you can sell it for.
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We were dirt poor when we got married so the ring was less than $300 back in the day. Today we could afford much more so I decided to ask DW if she would like to get a nicer ring to see how she would respond. She looked at me like I was an alien and said she has no interest in any other ring and to spend $5k on a ring ( the amount our nephew just spent) would be a "total waste". I appreciate having her as my partner!
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I wish someone would explain the desire for such a thing anyways. What is the drive to wear a big rock?
Does the degree to which a potential husband is willing to financially damage themselves somehow translate into a social measure of their love?
Is it a status thing?
Does it satisfy a childhood bucket list dream?
Is it a competition between women to see who has the biggest ring?
Does it help with ones self esteem?
I do not understand how a rational person who understands the pain it takes to accumulate that much cash is so willing to blow it in such an un-recoverable way?
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Again we come across one of the great mysteries of life.... that is, people complicating the shit out of a very easy situation. The answer is "no". Then discuss it a bit and move on. Unless you guys have piles of money saved, no debt and very secure incomes. The answer should be a simple no.
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I am not the most mustachian here by any stretch, but this is one area where I did pretty well.
I don't know what my engagement ring cost - maybe a few hundred dollars. I like diamonds but I like other stones better, so my now DH bought a tanzanite ring. I would have been horrified at a 25K engagement ring - that is a nice down payment on a house for christs sake! We maybe spent about $1500 on our wedding, which was a family affair with maybe 30 people at my husband's grandparents house.
I don't understand the whole wedding industry and diamond scam and I don't get how people fall for it. It is almost like putting your money in a shredder.
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I wish someone would explain the desire for such a thing anyways. What is the drive to wear a big rock?
Does the degree to which a potential husband is willing to financially damage themselves somehow translate into a social measure of their love?
Is it a status thing?
Does it satisfy a childhood bucket list dream?
Is it a competition between women to see who has the biggest ring?
Does it help with ones self esteem?
I do not understand how a rational person who understands the pain it takes to accumulate that much cash is so willing to blow it in such an un-recoverable way?
I think one should be careful to approach another person's desires in this way. Because inevitably that lens could be focused on something you enjoy for no logical reason.
This particular question is made more difficult by the fact that the lady in question has her own job and is contributing enough that a straight up "no" is not really an option. No marriage holds up with one side bullying the other like that.
Maybe this is important enough to her specifically that if when asked if she would work for six months of her life to afford this, she would say "yes." If that is true, then she gets her ring.
We're also all looking at this from different points of view. For me the answer is a quick and easy "no" simply because we're a single income household and at the time of getting married that would have taken a massive chunk out of our liquid resources. If my bride-to-be worked full time and made as much money as I, then maybe the answer isn't so clear cut.
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Okay, so my above post was a rant, and not very helpful, so let me add a more helpful one.
I like the idea of buying a less expensive ring first and then buying the big one 10,25 years down the road.
I definitely concur that you need to at least have the conversation with her about the money and the ring. Money problems, and I speak from experience here, are the single biggest source of stress in a marriage. You NEED to find out what her long term expectations are for your life together financially, and it is not fair to HER for you to harbor resentment about this decision and not tell her, because the resentment will poison your marriage. If she is really swayed by her peer group status, I can tell you that this is only the beginning. Even if she agrees to an inexpensive wedding, there is the house, then the kids education, the cars etc.... Keeping up with your peers becomes a lifestyle that is really stressful and not fulfilling, because you are living someone elses dreams, not your own. If that is what she wants, and you don't, it is better to know now then to know later, I promise you that. Besides, it isn't all or nothing. You could come to compromise where she gets her ring, but you come to an understanding about other things in the future. She needs you to tell her what your expectations are.
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Before my husband proposed to me, I told him that I do not need a diamond ring because it was too expensive. However, my husband thought this was a very important symbol that we deserved. He did a lot of study on the diamond quality, color, cut, purity and places to buy. Finally, he bought one and proposed to me.
We got married a few months later. After the marriage, I wore the wedding band instead of the diamond ring, because I am afraid of losing it, and I don't like want get it off every time I wash the dishes...when I wear it, I feel like I am wearing my computer + laptops + cars together, and I really feel ridiculous. I really have no idea why people think a diamond ring is important to love...
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25k in light of a lifetime is not that much
I disagree. There is just no context for me where $25k is not a lot of money.
If it were an $8,000 ring, or a $10,000 dollar ring, I can kind of see going for it- but $25,000 is a ton of money.
We put 20% down on our first house payment (less than 10 years ago, so I'm not talking about the ancient past) and it was less than this ring would cost.
I could buy a used car AND a good quality NEW car for less than this ring would cost.
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If the OP thinks it's worth it, it's worth it, but you'd be amazed at the number of anti-mustachian people who sneer if a ring isn't a certain size or color. My engagement rings (yes, I have two) are sapphire. My snotty sister said "oh, he couldn't afford diamonds, huh?" I said "if it was good enough for Princess Diana, it's good enough for me." It's like it's not considered a real engagement ring without a big honking diamond, but I love my rings as sapphire is both my and Mr. Mandalay's birthstone.
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If the OP thinks it's worth it, it's worth it, but you'd be amazed at the number of anti-mustachian people who sneer if a ring isn't a certain size or color. My engagement rings (yes, I have two) are sapphire. My snotty sister said "oh, he couldn't afford diamonds, huh?" I said "if it was good enough for Princess Diana, it's good enough for me." It's like it's not considered a real engagement ring without a big honking diamond, but I love my rings as sapphire is both my and Mr. Mandalay's birthstone.
I would have wanted to punch your sister in the mouth. I wouldn't have, because I'm classy like that, but I would have felt a rage inside of me that would have been screaming to be let out.
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If the OP thinks it's worth it, it's worth it
He clearly doesn't:
"About to throw $25k into the incinerator."
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If she is really swayed by her peer group status, I can tell you that this is only the beginning. Even if she agrees to an inexpensive wedding, there is the house, then the kids education, the cars etc....
I've just been eating the popcorn so far, but this sentiment that there MUST be a slippery slope here - where OP has noted there is ZERO evidence of a slippery slope in any other area of their lives - really irks me. I suspect a lot of people who want the fancy ring and the fancy honeymoon and the fancy wedding and go down the slippery path, have other indications - maybe some manicures, some fancy clothes, some fancy vacations...and it's not just a magical metamorphosis completely out of the blue. Let's not go all McCarthy here.
CommonCents' Common Sense tips:
1) Find out more why she wants it, in a productive non-hostile conversation.
2) Determine if she really wants it after seeing the size on her actual finger (w/o saying "this is X size - do you like it?")
3) Figure out she'll give up in exchange (color? carat? splitting the cost with you? working 6 months past you? putting an equivalent amount of savings into a gift for you - and not a fancy watch but your own private investment fund which you can use as you like?)
4) Figure out how to get it for cheaper (as noted above, if you can get it for a 1/3 of the cost, well, a few here have admitted to having rings of $8k)
5) Make your decision of to buy or not to buy.
For those arguing a boat is not equivalent gizmo (because it is *their* gizmo, perhaps) I bring you this:
http://www.zazzle.com/boat_a_hole_in_the_water_tee_shirt-235839869293924343
(And I love sail boats, spend a lot of time for a nonprofit sailing center, but I still recognize they are unholy expensive beasts that just keep on sucking up money. The sound of the expensive sail ripping within a few hours of the start of a 4-day race was heartbreaking to me as we had to turn around, but also financially punishing for the poor owner who had to buy a new sail.)
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this might be the worst thread I've ever seen on the board.
MMM inspires financial independence and early retirement.
Spending $25k on a ring sets you $25k further from FIRE.
there is no debate to that.
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Quote from: golden1 on December 23, 2014, 12:15:06 PM
If she is really swayed by her peer group status, I can tell you that this is only the beginning. Even if she agrees to an inexpensive wedding, there is the house, then the kids education, the cars etc....
I've just been eating the popcorn so far, but this sentiment that there MUST be a slippery slope here - where OP has noted there is ZERO evidence of a slippery slope in any other area of their lives - really irks me. I suspect a lot of people who want the fancy ring and the fancy honeymoon and the fancy wedding and go down the slippery path, have other indications - maybe some manicures, some fancy clothes, some fancy vacations...and it's not just a magical metamorphosis completely out of the blue. Let's not go all McCarthy here.
The reason I think it is probably the start of more expensive purchases in this case is the REASON she is using to justify the purchase. If she, like others on this board. had said that she wanted the ring because it was important to HER and that she would enjoy it intrinsically, then I would be less concerned about lifestyle creep, but since it is a purchase based on peer status, that implies that that is a motivating factor in her financial decisions and would be one going forward.
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25k in light of a lifetime is not that much
Really?
I would suggest you read these again.
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/08/01/a-millionaire-is-made-ten-bucks-at-a-time/ (http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/08/01/a-millionaire-is-made-ten-bucks-at-a-time/)
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/ (http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/)
Let's be serious here, 25K is a LOT of money. It is a down payment on a house, living expenses for a year. It is more than 90+ % of people in the world make in a year. Some proper perspective is important here.
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Really?
I would suggest you read these again.
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/08/01/a-millionaire-is-made-ten-bucks-at-a-time/ (http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/08/01/a-millionaire-is-made-ten-bucks-at-a-time/)
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/ (http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/)
Let's be serious here, 25K is a LOT of money. It is a down payment on a house, living expenses for a year. It is more than 90+ % of people in the world make in a year. Some proper perspective is important here.
Oh wow, didn't even think of it that way...$25K for a ring now is $1K per year lost for the rest of your life, if we assume the premise if the shockingly simple math. Now I don't have my expenses dialed in tightly enough that the 1K is a big deal in the grand scheme...but I spend that per year on my gym membership for the whole family (4 of us).
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Really?
I would suggest you read these again.
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/08/01/a-millionaire-is-made-ten-bucks-at-a-time/ (http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/08/01/a-millionaire-is-made-ten-bucks-at-a-time/)
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/ (http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/)
Let's be serious here, 25K is a LOT of money. It is a down payment on a house, living expenses for a year. It is more than 90+ % of people in the world make in a year. Some proper perspective is important here.
Oh wow, didn't even think of it that way...$25K for a ring now is $1K per year lost for the rest of your life, if we assume the premise if the shockingly simple math. Now I don't have my expenses dialed in tightly enough that the 1K is a big deal in the grand scheme...but I spend that per year on my gym membership for the whole family (4 of us).
So what if you say 'no' and you end up not getting married?
How much income is lost then? I bet it's more than $1k per year given that she works and apparently makes a decent income.
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OP hasn't been back since the 16th, so we are just arguing amongst ourselves now :D
Wonder what he decided to do....
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So what if you say 'no' and you end up not getting married?
I venture to say that most people that say no, and then have their girlfriend walk end up better off. Having such incompatible values doesn't really predict long term success in most cases.
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this might be the worst thread I've ever seen on the board.
i don't think you can have been around for westchester frugal then... still one of my faves!
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So what if you say 'no' and you end up not getting married?
I venture to say that most people that say no, and then have their girlfriend walk end up better off. Having such incompatible values doesn't really predict long term success in most cases.
This is what's called a "straw man" argument.
I'm happy that your opinion regarding the deliberately isolated portion of my post is what you say it is, but quoting me in such a way completely changes the point of the entire post to be something other than what it was to begin with.
The post was about lost income, not values and chances of success in marriage.
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Reading this thread is painful for me as it brings back memories. My girlfriend (now wife) wanted the same 2 ct+ engagement ring just like her friends have. For months I thought about it, tried to rationalize the purchase, and proposed other options to her. She was unwilling to budge. I nearly called off the relationship knowing that if she couldn't be happy with a "basic" 1ct diamond then there was no hope.
Finally I told her that I couldn't afford that type of ring and that we could upgrade her ring in the future (5+ years from now). She seemed to go along with that and I proposed with my 1ct ring and we are now married. It has been a little over 2 years since the proposal and my wife is still set on getting that 2ct stone in a few years. Periodically when we discuss money I bring up the fact that we are doing well by maxing our 401k accounts and paying down the mortgage...but we don't have $20k+ sitting around for a rock. We have two children and she honestly would rather have the ring than to better help them through college! Fortunately my wife does earn a decent salary and I think she is happy to continue working if it allows her to get everything (ring soon, help with college later, ...). She may change her mind once she sees me go to part-time work in a few years!
Thankfully she is only this way about "her ring" and I hope that she will become more reasonable as she ages. Luckily I can and have used the ring as leverage against buying a larger/fancier house and for keeping our aging vehicles.
Good luck to you OP.
Fuck. These stories make me want to avoid marriage like the Dickens... What's in a wedding ring, anyways.
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I really think it is something a lot of girls have had in their head since a young age. The power of marketing, I guess. Reason goes out the window.
Man, sometimes I read these forums and think my husband does not appreciate me enough. We got engaged without any ring and had a nice low-key wedding, total cost probably under $1200 (I can't remember exactly). Why I am not constantly pursued by mustachian men is a mystery to me ;-)
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Reading this thread is painful for me as it brings back memories. My girlfriend (now wife) wanted the same 2 ct+ engagement ring just like her friends have. For months I thought about it, tried to rationalize the purchase, and proposed other options to her. She was unwilling to budge. I nearly called off the relationship knowing that if she couldn't be happy with a "basic" 1ct diamond then there was no hope.
Finally I told her that I couldn't afford that type of ring and that we could upgrade her ring in the future (5+ years from now). She seemed to go along with that and I proposed with my 1ct ring and we are now married. It has been a little over 2 years since the proposal and my wife is still set on getting that 2ct stone in a few years. Periodically when we discuss money I bring up the fact that we are doing well by maxing our 401k accounts and paying down the mortgage...but we don't have $20k+ sitting around for a rock. We have two children and she honestly would rather have the ring than to better help them through college! Fortunately my wife does earn a decent salary and I think she is happy to continue working if it allows her to get everything (ring soon, help with college later, ...). She may change her mind once she sees me go to part-time work in a few years!
Thankfully she is only this way about "her ring" and I hope that she will become more reasonable as she ages. Luckily I can and have used the ring as leverage against buying a larger/fancier house and for keeping our aging vehicles.
Good luck to you OP.
Fuck. These stories make me want to avoid marriage like the Dickens... What's in a wedding ring, anyways.
That's a very good question. What's the point of a large diamond ring? What message does it convey to other people? IMO, the message is meant to be something like, "I am cared for by a very powerful person, so you had better not mistreat me." It's a show of strength.
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Bill Gates gave Melinda a 1-carat diamond as her engagement ring. At the time, he was already one of the richest men in the world. When I heard the story, I thought: "This marriage will last."
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At the last company I worked for, the owner was a multibillionaire. He had created the company with his (now deceased) father. The man had enough money that he could pretty much buy anything he wanted. Yet never in his life did he buy a new car. Never. He might have owned a plane and employed pilots to fly him across the country, but he never owned a brand new car. He always bought them used. The rich don't get rich by spending money on frivolous things. They get rich off talent, investing, time, and a little luck.
On a side note, if you want to stick it to your fiance, tell her that you've agreed to the 25k ring. Then tell her which band you want. Get a nice Tungsten band from Amazon. $15-$20. The same rings sell for $150-$500 at jewelry stores. Maybe she'll have second thoughts about spending 25k when you're only spending $20.
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Fuck. These stories make me want to avoid marriage like the Dickens... What's in a wedding ring, anyways.
Don't avoid marriage. Avoid the wedding industrial complex.
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Bill Gates gave Melinda a 1-carat diamond as her engagement ring. At the time, he was already one of the richest men in the world. When I heard the story, I thought: "This marriage will last."
That's cool. and I'll bet it was a diamond nearly perfect, with great specs. A really nice 1c rock is classic and always in good taste.
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Bill Gates gave Melinda a 1-carat diamond as her engagement ring. At the time, he was already one of the richest men in the world. When I heard the story, I thought: "This marriage will last."
That's cool. and I'll bet it was a diamond nearly perfect, with great specs. A really nice 1c rock is classic and always in good taste.
Yeah, anything bigger looks like it came out of a cereal box. Every time I, or my wife, see one we typically wonder out loud if it's real or if it came from Wal-Mart.
We went with the "just under 1k" route. I think it's about .97k, which saved us a bunch.
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A friend of mine insisted on a 2 carat diamond for her engagement ring. Her fiancé wanted to give her his grandmother's 1 carat, but she would not have it. She found out years later that his grandmother's diamond was D flawless and worth a bloody fortune.
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Men - This just goes to show you when you pop the question have a ring ready to slip on the finger. That way you have control over the cost of the ring. I used to think that $10k for a ring was expensive; but $25k for a ring blows my mind.
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Bill Gates gave Melinda a 1-carat diamond as her engagement ring. At the time, he was already one of the richest men in the world. When I heard the story, I thought: "This marriage will last."
+1
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I just want to point out one anti-mustachian thing that is a realty for many in the business world. Sometimes you need a "status symbol" as an outward indicator of your success in order to attract and retain clients. I first saw this concept on the show "The Shield." One of the cops girlfriends was a new real estate agent and she needed to get a "name brand" car. Her point was "you want the realtor that sells the most houses, right? Are you going to think the most successful Realtor is the one with the Kia or the Jag?" I hate the concept but as long as I have clients I have to appear successful. In my world, that doesn't require a large engagement ring but it does require nice enough clothes, a respectable car that I can drive clients in (doesn't have to be name brand but it can't be a mustachian "junker"), a decent handbag, etc. I can often find non-branded stuff that fits the bill. However, for many women particularly in major cities, the size of your rock is indicative of the size of your wealth. If she needs to appear wealthy to appear successful in her field, (banking, sales, law) then it might really matter. For me, my salary less the cost of my car puts me closer to early retirement than a job that didn't require a car would (meaning the salary there would be a lot lower). Unfortunately, until you get to FIRE, you sometimes have to pay to play to stay in the earning big money game.
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I just want to point out one anti-mustachian thing that is a realty for many in the business world. Sometimes you need a "status symbol" as an outward indicator of your success in order to attract and retain clients. I first saw this concept on the show "The Shield." One of the cops girlfriends was a new real estate agent and she needed to get a "name brand" car. Her point was "you want the realtor that sells the most houses, right? Are you going to think the most successful Realtor is the one with the Kia or the Jag?" I hate the concept but as long as I have clients I have to appear successful. In my world, that doesn't require a large engagement ring but it does require nice enough clothes, a respectable car that I can drive clients in (doesn't have to be name brand but it can't be a mustachian "junker"), a decent handbag, etc. I can often find non-branded stuff that fits the bill. However, for many women particularly in major cities, the size of your rock is indicative of the size of your wealth. If she needs to appear wealthy to appear successful in her field, (banking, sales, law) then it might really matter. For me, my salary less the cost of my car puts me closer to early retirement than a job that didn't require a car would (meaning the salary there would be a lot lower). Unfortunately, until you get to FIRE, you sometimes have to pay to play to stay in the earning big money game.
Having worked in the NYC financial district for many years, I hear you. However, there are ways around this. I bought my St. John Knits and my Hermes scarves on Ebay. I made my own jewelry. Had I needed a big diamond, I would have bought a manufactured one. If someone asked me where I got it, I would have attributed it to my grandmother, because there's no money like old money. Had I needed a fancy car, I would have used my excellent mechanic to find me a classic Mercedes. Or bought a Prius, which has its own cachet. When I needed to, I was always able to obtain the trappings of wealth at a fraction of the retail cost. And for me, that was part of the fun. I grew up with old money, though I do not come from money myself. I learned a lot from them. That's why their money has passed down the generations. They know how to hold on to it.
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Bill Gates gave Melinda a 1-carat diamond as her engagement ring. At the time, he was already one of the richest men in the world. When I heard the story, I thought: "This marriage will last."
That's cool. and I'll bet it was a diamond nearly perfect, with great specs. A really nice 1c rock is classic and always in good taste.
Yeah, anything bigger looks like it came out of a cereal box. Every time I, or my wife, see one we typically wonder out loud if it's real or if it came from Wal-Mart.
We went with the "just under 1k" route. I think it's about .97k, which saved us a bunch.
I used to run with some super-rich people (my former in-laws), who themselves ran with *super* rich people (senators, rock stars, billionaires). I grew up in a house with one bathroom, while the *guest house* at my former in-laws' had three bathrooms. So it was quite a culture shock. Meanwhile former in-laws were always trying to keep up with their particular brand of Joneses, which was hilarious because they themselves were so rich.
Anyway, one woman, who was the sister-in-law of a US senator, had a seven-carat diamond. She wore it to dinner at the ILs while we were visiting. It was so incredible. I couldn't take my eyes off it. It had a little rainbow hovering above it. I'm not at all the type to go for a diamond ring, BUT there was something about this particular ring that was truly amazing to see.
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This is a culture thing. I don't get it, and am very happy for that. The norm here is to buy only one set of rings, and use them for both engagement and wedding bands. Some people have watched to many American movies, and get diamond engangement rings. The average size of the rocks are .2-.3 ct.
I wanted an engagement ring, so DH and me bought one together with the cash we had available that day: $50. No diamonds, of course. I do not have the conscience to wear blood diamonds. I struggle enough with the environmental impact of gold.
My sister has a diamond ring with history, were the stone was mined by a relative of her husband. It is lovely and guarantied blood free, but she never wears it. One reason is that she is afraid to loose it, but the most important reason is that it is just not done to wear flashy jewellry in our circles.
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this might be the worst thread I've ever seen on the board.
i don't think you can have been around for westchester frugal then... still one of my faves!
Westchester frugal was an epic thread. I hope it's still here. I might need to read it again, just for fun.
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I don't think the OP is here anymore. But I've been thinking about this.
Tell her no.
Just say "sweety I love you but I'm not spending 25k on a ring. You'd be asking me to do something that is more than just me sacrificing for you, it is against the very core of who I am."
Let's face it. She's not leaving him over a ring and if she does then he certainly dodged a bullet.
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PBKMaine - I do the same thing. I find very inexpensive ways to fit in. I'll tell a quick fun story. My inlaws briefly lived in a very expensive gated neighborhood where some pretty famous people live. My FIL was relocated for his work and the company put them up there for "temporary housing." My inlaws decided to go to the NYE Gala and bought us tickets and flew us out to go. Everyone was wearing clothes I could never afford. I by chance found an amazing looking ballroom gown at SEARS of all places for $30 (prom mark down). It looked amazing and not at all cheap. I wore it and I had people coming up to me all night asking me who my designer was. They had NO IDEA it was a Sears dress. They weren't playing mean girl either. Almost 10 years later, I will be wearing it to my own professional event this coming weekend. I always keep that story in mind when I feel like I need something pricey to fit in.
Regarding my car, I'm driving a 2006 Hyundai but it is all black and I keep it in good condition so I'm comfortable having clients in it when I need to. One frugal colleague transferred here from another firm and was driving an old junker that would make any mustachian proud. My boss politely suggested he upgrade or at least not park it in "attorney parking" lest we scare off the clients re: our success rates. (We take a lot of contingency cases).
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Love the Sears story!
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"because there's no money like old money"
So true. Also, this is great work-around advice on sourcing and explaining vintage luxury.
I hope OP considers convincing his fiancee to go the route of a vintage diamond. While the cuts were different than are popular today, the craftsmanship and over-all quality available in previous decades exceeds what's coming out of the big jewelers today. For Christmas, I buy a small piece of quality jewelry for each of my two nieces every year. I was, frankly, disgusted with the quality of what they were pushing at the Kay, JB Robinson, etc mall jewelers. Two miles across town, at an old-school, independent shop, I found an entire case of estate jewelry that was beautiful, on budget - and designed to last.
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I wore it and I had people coming up to me all night asking me who my designer was.
Did you tell anyone? Or just change the subject?
It's from the Curtis Roebuck line. ;)
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I bought my wife a fairly expensive ring and she got a lot of nice compliments on it. She got pregnant and fat and couldn't wear it anymore and wanted something cheap to wear temporarily. She found a sub $50 "diamond" ring at WalMart. She got a lot of nice compliments on it. It was then I realized what fucking retard I was.
Bwahahaha yep I get a lot of compliments on my Walmart bling!
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Whatever you spend, do it graciously. I love my husband but still feel a little sad that he was so tight when we were ring shopping, complaining several times during the process. (looking at a few hundred dollars when we were about to buy a house with 40% down, good savings and earnings). I wasn't demanding and would have been happy with almost anything but the attitude upset me.
Very much agree with this post. If you want a marriage to last, you can disagree with what she wants, but you should do it kindly.
Since she's dictating so much about the ring, let her be involved in the entire process. Talk to her about getting a vintage ring at hopefully a third of the cost. And then tell her "it's a lot of money, but I know it's important to you and I want to make you happy so I'll work hard to save up to buy the ring". Then show her your plan to save $500/month (or whatever is reasonable in your income without neglecting your other financial commitments) until I have enough for this ring. If she is willing to wait 18-24 months (or some other pretty long time interval) for a proposal, then maybe it's something that is really worth it for her. Plus, you'll actually save for it and pay cash (without neglecting your other financial commitments).
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I suppose what also irks me about this one is that a ring is supposed to be a gift, and I'd say it's pretty poor manners to dictate the dollar value of a gift. When someone blows cash on a boat, I think we're assuming they're buying it themselves.
If the girlfriend earns great money, I'm surprised she didn't offer to pay for part of it herself. Someone buying herself a ring for 25k because she really, truly, want it is fine. Expecting someone else to is a whole other story (although I guess it largely hinges on how they plan to manage their money - joint or separate - when married.)
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Whenever I see anyone..and I mean anyone, wearing a large diamond, I always assume it is a fake.
I wonder how many other people do this also.
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Feel like I have to comment to be a dissenting opinion.
About 8 years ago I was that girlfriend demanding a big diamond. Ended up with a rock over 2 carats. Color is okay, I think an H, maybe? In a pretty custom setting. My husband took me shopping for it and I picked out the diamond from the "wholesaler". Then I looked through some catalogs at pictures of settings, pointed to one and a computer generated the setting in platinum.
It made me feel oh so special to get that ring. Even though I had picked it out, and been a part of the whole thing. Yes, total status symbol. No denying it. I think all in it was around $14k.
My husband still says it was the best decision he ever made, that is, taking me shopping for the ring, going big, and of course, marrying me. I love wearing it.
And now I'm the one in our marriage who follows MMM and is trying to decrease our grocery bill, retire early, be less consumer driven, etc. So I'm going to strongly disagree with the Chicken Littles on this thread who say your girlfriend wanting a big diamond is an omen of peril, doom, destruction, divorce, etc to come.
Here's something useful which others have said, don't get up-sold on the color thing. A perfectly colorless D gets grease, baby boogers, gunk of daily living on it and then looks just like every other H diamond. Color is a good place to save some money. And consider taking your girlfriend shopping for it. That way you really get just what she wants.
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Feel like I have to comment to be a dissenting opinion.
About 8 years ago I was that girlfriend demanding a big diamond. Ended up with a rock over 2 carats. Color is okay. JUST OK???????
I think an H, maybe? In a pretty custom setting. My husband took me shopping for it and I picked out the diamond from the "wholesaler". Then I looked through some catalogs at pictures of settings, pointed to one and a computer generated the setting in platinum.
It made me feel oh so special to get that ring. Even though I had picked it out, and been a part of the whole thing. Yes, total status symbol. No denying it. I think all in it was around $14k.
My husband still says it was the best decision he ever made, that is, taking me shopping for the ring, going big, and of course, marrying me. I love wearing it.
And now I'm the one in our marriage who follows MMM and is trying to decrease our grocery bill, retire early, be less consumer driven, etc. So I'm going to strongly disagree with the Chicken Littles on this thread who say your girlfriend wanting a big diamond is an omen of peril, doom, destruction, divorce, etc to come.
Here's something useful which others have said, don't get up-sold on the color thing. A perfectly colorless D gets grease, baby boogers, gunk of daily living on it and then looks just like every other H diamond. Color is a good place to save some money. And consider taking your girlfriend shopping for it. That way you really get just what she wants.
I still find it disgusting!
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Feel like I have to comment to be a dissenting opinion.
About 8 years ago I was that girlfriend demanding a big diamond. Ended up with a rock over 2 carats. Color is okay, I think an H, maybe? In a pretty custom setting. My husband took me shopping for it and I picked out the diamond from the "wholesaler". Then I looked through some catalogs at pictures of settings, pointed to one and a computer generated the setting in platinum.
It made me feel oh so special to get that ring. Even though I had picked it out, and been a part of the whole thing. Yes, total status symbol. No denying it. I think all in it was around $14k.
My husband still says it was the best decision he ever made, that is, taking me shopping for the ring, going big, and of course, marrying me. I love wearing it.
And now I'm the one in our marriage who follows MMM and is trying to decrease our grocery bill, retire early, be less consumer driven, etc. So I'm going to strongly disagree with the Chicken Littles on this thread who say your girlfriend wanting a big diamond is an omen of peril, doom, destruction, divorce, etc to come.
Here's something useful which others have said, don't get up-sold on the color thing. A perfectly colorless D gets grease, baby boogers, gunk of daily living on it and then looks just like every other H diamond. Color is a good place to save some money. And consider taking your girlfriend shopping for it. That way you really get just what she wants.
Thanks for that input. I wonder if you would care if you husband had secretly called the jeweler and switched to a nice CZ stone for less that 500? Probably not. In fact most jewelers can't tell a good CZ from a mined rock.
I think it is nice that you are still married buy you realize you are an outlier I'm sure. In the 50/50 game of marriage the big rock buyers get screwed on the money and little else. Or at least that is what I've read.
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My husband and I got married on a Monday at our house with no one present but the officiant. He bought me a $400 pearl ring I had picked out earlier that day. We spent less than $700 total on licensing, officiating, and ring.
Three months later we spent around $9k on two diamond rings for me and a titanium ring for him. It was important to both of us to have a pretty, sizable diamond. It's not 2 carats by any means but both my rings have several diamonds on them and the center stone in my engagement ring is over 1 carat.
I think you guys are judging the girlfriend a bit too harshly -- people have certain things that they want to indulge in, and other things they couldn't care less about. For us, the ring was important for several personal reasons, and the wedding wasn't as important, also for several personal reasons. I have a feeling there are more "outliers" like me and DMoney than you would expect, and that we're probably not really outliers at all.
EDIT: And if I ever found out my husband had gone behind my back and switched my diamond for a fake? I would be LIVID. That's sneaky and dishonest and not something I would ever expect a true partner to do.
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any suggestions on how to purchase something like this? I've checked bluenile.com and jamesallen.com and am leaning towards jamesallen.com. I do not personally know any jewelers, but I know that retail is not a great way to go. Any suggestions (or commiseration) greatly appreciated.
I have not read through the entire thread but this first post looks suspiciously like he is spamming. I read it as, "If you have to purchase expensive wedding rings, use these two site that no one has heard of before. This one is the best I have found. Now I will leave a couple of comments for legitimacy and then disappear forever."
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Feel like I have to comment to be a dissenting opinion.
About 8 years ago I was that girlfriend demanding a big diamond. Ended up with a rock over 2 carats. Color is okay, I think an H, maybe? In a pretty custom setting. My husband took me shopping for it and I picked out the diamond from the "wholesaler". Then I looked through some catalogs at pictures of settings, pointed to one and a computer generated the setting in platinum.
It made me feel oh so special to get that ring. Even though I had picked it out, and been a part of the whole thing. Yes, total status symbol. No denying it. I think all in it was around $14k.
My husband still says it was the best decision he ever made, that is, taking me shopping for the ring, going big, and of course, marrying me. I love wearing it.
And now I'm the one in our marriage who follows MMM and is trying to decrease our grocery bill, retire early, be less consumer driven, etc. So I'm going to strongly disagree with the Chicken Littles on this thread who say your girlfriend wanting a big diamond is an omen of peril, doom, destruction, divorce, etc to come.
Here's something useful which others have said, don't get up-sold on the color thing. A perfectly colorless D gets grease, baby boogers, gunk of daily living on it and then looks just like every other H diamond. Color is a good place to save some money. And consider taking your girlfriend shopping for it. That way you really get just what she wants.
Thanks for that input. I wonder if you would care if you husband had secretly called the jeweler and switched to a nice CZ stone for less that 500? Probably not. In fact most jewelers can't tell a good CZ from a mined rock.
I think it is nice that you are still married buy you realize you are an outlier I'm sure. In the 50/50 game of marriage the big rock buyers get screwed on the money and little else. Or at least that is what I've read.
It is not difficult to tell a CZ from a diamond. Any jeweler who has half a clue can do that. Moissanite is a little closer, but there are testers than detect it just fine. If my husband secretly tried to deceive me about a diamond or anything else, that might be the end of the relationship because it certainly would destroy my ability to trust him.
I'm another woman with a nice engagement ring who has been married for a very long time. In fact, that description would fit all the women in my family and in my husband's family. Marriage is certainly a crap shoot, but there are so many factors that play into it that claiming a marriage is doomed because the woman wants a diamond ring is ridiculous.
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any suggestions on how to purchase something like this? I've checked bluenile.com and jamesallen.com and am leaning towards jamesallen.com. I do not personally know any jewelers, but I know that retail is not a great way to go. Any suggestions (or commiseration) greatly appreciated.
I have not read through the entire thread but this first post looks suspiciously like he is spamming. I read it as, "If you have to purchase expensive wedding rings, use these two site that no one has heard of before. This one is the best I have found. Now I will leave a couple of comments for legitimacy and then disappear forever."
I'm pretty sure there are some moisannote sock puppets in here. We actually got moisannite and id recommend it for smaller stones, but some of these testimonials are straight out of ad copy.
Feel like I have to comment to be a dissenting opinion.
About 8 years ago I was that girlfriend demanding a big diamond. Ended up with a rock over 2 carats. Color is okay, I think an H, maybe? In a pretty custom setting. My husband took me shopping for it and I picked out the diamond from the "wholesaler". Then I looked through some catalogs at pictures of settings, pointed to one and a computer generated the setting in platinum.
It made me feel oh so special to get that ring. Even though I had picked it out, and been a part of the whole thing. Yes, total status symbol. No denying it. I think all in it was around $14k.
My husband still says it was the best decision he ever made, that is, taking me shopping for the ring, going big, and of course, marrying me. I love wearing it.
And now I'm the one in our marriage who follows MMM and is trying to decrease our grocery bill, retire early, be less consumer driven, etc. So I'm going to strongly disagree with the Chicken Littles on this thread who say your girlfriend wanting a big diamond is an omen of peril, doom, destruction, divorce, etc to come.
Here's something useful which others have said, don't get up-sold on the color thing. A perfectly colorless D gets grease, baby boogers, gunk of daily living on it and then looks just like every other H diamond. Color is a good place to save some money. And consider taking your girlfriend shopping for it. That way you really get just what she wants.
You have to save a whole lot on your grocery bill to make up for a $14k bauble. Think $3/day in lost returns for eternity. Everyone is entitled to weigh their own preferences (maybe you'd happily pay $3/day to pay for your ring) but to me that's quite a bit
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My husband and I got married on a Monday at our house with no one present but the officiant. He bought me a $400 pearl ring I had picked out earlier that day. We spent less than $700 total on licensing, officiating, and ring.
Three months later we spent around $9k on two diamond rings for me and a titanium ring for him. It was important to both of us to have a pretty, sizable diamond. It's not 2 carats by any means but both my rings have several diamonds on them and the center stone in my engagement ring is over 1 carat.
I think you guys are judging the girlfriend a bit too harshly -- people have certain things that they want to indulge in, and other things they couldn't care less about. For us, the ring was important for several personal reasons, and the wedding wasn't as important, also for several personal reasons. I have a feeling there are more "outliers" like me and DMoney than you would expect, and that we're probably not really outliers at all.
EDIT: And if I ever found out my husband had gone behind my back and switched my diamond for a fake? I would be LIVID. That's sneaky and dishonest and not something I would ever expect a true partner to do.
Yes. I'm another. I didn't say it above initially because I figured once I did, people would immediately dismiss what I said without considering it. I wanted a nice ring because I planned to wear it every day, for the rest of my life - unlike any other jewelry, clothing or any other item I would own. So we picked out a ring that was $8K and paid cash for it. We would have saved quite a bit more if DH had been willing to reach out to his contact in the diamond wholesale business (like everyone else who knows the friend has done).
Meanwhile, I don't have fancy clothes, purses, or other jewelry (except a pair of sapphire earring DH gave me on our wedding day, which I'd like to note, I did not request or even hint at. I was entirely surprised.) I've declined the offer of a sapphire necklace to match the earrings. I'm pushing for keeping our 2002 Honda Civic is longer when he'd like to replace with new. I coupon, shop sales, put off buying things (DH thinks I don't buy things I need, but I do, just not wants!), cook from scratch using sale items and coupons, canceled cable, found a way to save on trash, negotiate with internet provider, wedding vendors etc.... Most of this I did before MMM - MMM just gave me more ideas, not the drive.
Contrary to the sentiments boldly proclaimed here without support, wanting ONE nice expensive thing is not a guarantee of a slippery slope down the road of consumerism. (And also, let s/he without any consumer vices throw the first stone.) That said, I agree that she ought to be able to articulate a reason for it, and consider options presented here to cut the price tag down. And he always has the option to refuse. But like caliq, I would find it utterly abhorrent for my husband to lie to me; to be dishonest about it would severely shake my trust in our relationship.
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I haven't read this entire thread yet, but my first suggestion would be to join Pricescope.com. There you'll find lots of information on diamonds and on getting the best value when purchasing diamonds.
I've never put pressure on men to buy me expensive things. I would've loved any ring my fiancee picked out for me. He ultimately asked for my help picking out a stone and setting, since I know something about gems and jewelry. I offered to split the cost of the ring with him (he refused), and then offered to buy him a ring for himself (he accepted).
I liked the early suggestion one poster made of asking your fiancee to buy you something equivalent in price. This is, after all, 2015. Or you can ask her to cover half the cost of her two carat diamond. Neither of these may go over well, but if she considers the act of plunking down $12,500 of her hard-earned cash for one-half of a ring, she may begin to see the benefit of smaller stones, or vintage non-diamonds.
Good rubies, sapphires, emeralds, tanzanites, alexandrites (they change color, too!), and certain types of demantoid garnets are among the rarest of stones. Vintage rings set with these gems would be a great replacement, but only if your fiancee would really like a different gem. White diamonds aren't rare; they're actually the most common gem. They've simply benefited from a long and effective marketing (and hoarding) campaign by De Beers.
http://www.gemsociety.org/article/are-diamonds-really-rare/
If she's still determined to have a large diamond, I'd consider cut quality the most important aspect. Without an ideal cut, the stone won't be as lively as possible. If you get an ideal cut (you can read up on how to review a stone's cut measurements), you may be able to purchase a 1.5 carat stone with better presence than a standard or very well cut 2 ct. I'd also suggest going with AGS or GIA rated diamonds. Since not all cuts rated "excellent" or "ideal" are equal, review the diamond measurements themselves (and, obviously, how the stones present in person) to determine the best cut for you.
http://www.pricescope.com/tools/hca
As you already know, don't go to a retail jewelry store (Tiffany, Cartier, etc). They don't give out enough information on the stones they sell, and their markups are insane. De Beers has already ensured the price of diamonds will probably never be equivalent to their real value, so I personally wouldn't allow a retail store to add to the already-crazy diamond markup.
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I really think it is something a lot of girls have had in their head since a young age. The power of marketing, I guess. Reason goes out the window.
Man, sometimes I read these forums and think my husband does not appreciate me enough. We got engaged without any ring and had a nice low-key wedding, total cost probably under $1200 (I can't remember exactly). Why I am not constantly pursued by mustachian men is a mystery to me ;-)
-I can relate. I've always taken responsibility for my finances, and never treated men like cash machines. But some men don't see that as a good thing; the media works equally on both sexes' idea of "status". Sad.
But that's another topic.
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Question for the ladies who wanted big rings: provided you had separate finances prior to engagement, would you have been okay with paying for part of your ring ? If you had shared finances, would you have been okay with sacrificing one of your. (not his) "splurges" in your budget in order to get the ring? Would you have insisted on a certain ring price if he wasn't comfortable with it ?
What I'm getting at is its perfectly fine to value and to have an expensive ring, not fine to expect someone else to pay for it / to insist on a dollar value of a gift.
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Question for the ladies who wanted big rings: provided you had separate finances prior to engagement, would you have been okay with paying for part of your ring ? If you had shared finances, would you have been okay with sacrificing one of your. (not his) "splurges" in your budget in order to get the ring? Would you have insisted on a certain ring price if he wasn't comfortable with it ?
What I'm getting at is its perfectly fine to value and to have an expensive ring, not fine to expect someone else to pay for it / to insist on a dollar value of a gift.
1 - we had semi-combined finances for several months prior to marriage. We didn't have an 'engagement' period per say. If we had separate finances, then yes I'd have paid half if he wanted. Either way we would have combined them when we married so as a couple we'd be out the same amount.
2 - I wouldn't have sacrificed a splurge. He was just as on board with spending for a quality ring as I was, and initially I even tried to dissuade him a bit. He was surprisingly opinionated on the subject :D We also received a mid-5 figures windfall and purchased my rings with a portion of that, so there wasn't a budgeting/"saving up" type issue. Before the windfall, we spent $400 on a pearl ring we knew was temporary.
3 - I didn't insist on a certain price or size. We picked a set of bands that we liked and then picked a stone that looked good in that setting. I have very small hands (5.5 ring size) and actually anything bigger than the 1+ish carat (I think it's 1.15? 1.25? idk) I have looked absolutely ridiculous. I would never insist on a dollar value for a gift -- that's obscenely rude :p
It's also probably worth noting that we as a couple probably don't share financial/life goals with a lot of people on this forum. My husband is essentially FIRE (not by choice, he's a disabled vet and was told at 29 by his doctors that there's not much more they can do, and he should get used to the idea of not working); I'm still in school and will have a 6 figure starting salary after graduating professional school. I don't see ER in my future, but I certainly plan to save enough of my income to keep it an option (though technically we can both live a very comfortable life on his VA disability alone). So for us it probably wasn't the same decision as it would be for someone who's counting down the days to ER, for example.
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Many months ago I made an effort to see moissanite. I had to go to a jeweler clear across town, a long way away. But I was very curious because I'd heard so much about it.
They let me play with an round brilliant-cut moissy and an enhanced moissy (new, better). Most of the time I could not not tell the difference between moissy and my diamond, but then--the light would hit the moissy stones and they would react differently from my diamond ring. Moissanite throws rainbow sparkles because it is double refractive. I think that is cool. Also, I thought that it "took on" nearby color in a way that diamond does not, and that I did not like so much. Finally, some people find them to have a sightly yellow-green hue.
I like moissy and think it's a great idea for a clear-stone diamond substitute. I think I like it better than white sapphire for that purpose, I just find the rainbow sparkles to be fun and surprising! When set into a ring, most people won't be able to tell the difference between diamond and moissanite.
But I've had a reasonably nice diamond for many decades, and I'm not sorry about it. I wear it most days. Like other posters here, I don't have other "good" jewelery but for a family ring and a couple of vintage rings. I don't care about clothes and shoes and haircuts and most other girl things, and my other jewelry is very inexpensive.
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My GFs ex-fiancé gave her a cubic zirconia ring from a well know discount store in the UK, she now associates diamond alternatives with her cheap ex and insists I buy her a diamond to prove I am not the same person (i.e. cheap and selfish).
I'm really struggling with this myself as there is no way a stone is worth an entire month’s wage. It will not put food on a table, it will not increase in value and it only serves as an eternal reminder I have asked her to marry me, I would have thought the words would be more meaningful and valuable, but hey ho!
I will save up the money she wants to buy a diamond ring and show her what £2000 looks like in cash! I think she's worth it so I will give her the option to buy a diamond ring with it, but only if she first comes with me to compare them with white gold moissanite rings. Once she has seen what she can get for the money I hope she will reconsider the £2000 diamond ring. If she makes the right decision and opts for the £600 2ct white gold moissanite ring we will have £1400 towards our wedding!
If she opts for the £2000, I'm asking for a £2000 carnbon framed road bike for my birthday (a boy can dream)
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Question for the ladies who wanted big rings: provided you had separate finances prior to engagement, would you have been okay with paying for part of your ring ? If you had shared finances, would you have been okay with sacrificing one of your. (not his) "splurges" in your budget in order to get the ring? Would you have insisted on a certain ring price if he wasn't comfortable with it ?
What I'm getting at is its perfectly fine to value and to have an expensive ring, not fine to expect someone else to pay for it / to insist on a dollar value of a gift.
1. We had separate finances, although we lived together then and used fuzzy contributions towards those expenses. (I moved into his paid off condo, so there was no mortgage, I ended up picking up the utilities/groceries instead, while he paid taxes/HOA.) I offered to pay for something he would want instead, such as a watch, but he declined. (He used to wear a watch all the time.) As a side note, for various reasons I didn't really have "splurge" in the budget when we ring shopped so there wasn't anything really to give up - no mani/pedis, massages, expensive clothes/bags, video game habit, mimosas with the gals... I still don't have much splurge items in the budget - unlike him there are no bachelor trips, I bring my lunch, I try to decline most of his suggestions we eat out (he suggests about 2-3x a week with bills of $50+ each time - pre-me, he ate takeout 95%. Even still our restaurant bills would likely horrify people here, as I sometimes agree because otherwise he gets really upset.), etc.
2. No, I wouldn't have (and didn't) insisted on a certain ring price. The cost came because I actually was looking for a different ring setting than the standard bucket one. (One, I don't like the profile of the bucket. Two, I've always loved my mom's unusual ring setting.) My actual stone is 0.92, with two (much cheaper) side stones of ~0.25. The cost came in part from the custom design and because DH just said "ok" to the one stone the jeweler had for just under a carat (we were trying to avoid the full carat premium), rather than shopping around to get different specs such as a lower color/cut, a better price or looking online. I wanted us to look online, ask around, or at least ask his old fraternity brother in the wholesale diamond business (which is what every single one of his fraternity brothers did). He now regrets not doing that. He also now regrets not buying me a bigger or better ring (although I tell him I am happy with it), and has made noises about changing it or buying me more jewelry. I didn't insist on anything in the first place, so of course I wouldn't have he couldn't afford it - I just explained why it was important to me, and he decided to go for it, despite his personal sentiment it is a "piece of a pencil". (That's what I get for marrying someone with a phd in science.) On affordability - despite being expensive on this board ($8k), my ring still cost MUCH less than the arbitrary 2 month DeBeers created guide (which would have been ~$18-19k), and much less/smaller than people in my status/attire conscious profession (law) wear. I did decline the offer of his mom's ring from her abusive marriage though (it's one thing if I don't know the person/history, but another when you do), but he didn't want it either.
In fairness here, I think the OP's future fiancée said she wanted 2 carats through, and she wasn't looking for a specific "price" either though, so this question is a bit misleading. It also doesn't seem like this was an issue of affordability but rather sensibility.
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I will save up the money she wants to buy a diamond ring and show her what £2000 looks like in cash! I think she's worth it so I will give her the option to buy a diamond ring with it, but only if she first comes with me to compare them with white gold moissanite rings. Once she has seen what she can get for the money I hope she will reconsider the £2000 diamond ring. If she makes the right decision and opts for the £600 2ct white gold moissanite ring we will have £1400 towards our wedding!
That price for a ring is what I consider "normal"- it is miles away from a $25,000 ring.
But I think having her involved and seeing what the diamond vs. the alternatives look like makes sense- especially if you are needing money toward your wedding budget. (I have a friend who had the choice between a ring and new furniture for their home- and would buy the ring on their 5 year anniversary. 10 years later, she still doesn't have a ring.)
(I will say showing her the money in cash seems a bit silly though. It reminds me of a scene from Parks and Rec- the character gets like $1000 in hundred dollar bills, and is disappointed with how little it is. So then he gets it in ones and is much happier. But then, he excitedly says "nickels!")
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Actually, I just remembered that it used to be much more common to get an engagement watch after you popped the question. Maybe you should tell her that you expect a similarly valued watch to the $25k ring?
Maybe it would work out better if she had to match the value to give to a charity. It's a symbol that we can cherish together for ever...lol.
I did decline the offer of his mom's ring from her abusive marriage though (it's one thing if I don't know the person/history, but another when you do), but he didn't want it either.
I find this funny...because it's just a ring.
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This is also the topic that, strangely, has caused me to register.
I think that's an outrageous sum to anyone who's not filthy rich, and also think a ring like that is a complete waste of money.
But I'm not you.
I guess there are two questions:
Can you afford this without going into debt? If the answer is no, then I'd come up with a sum you can afford and get her a ring for that amount.
If you can afford it without debt, I might suggest just giving HER the choice of what to do with the money, as in, just give her the money. If she really, really wants the ring, she can buy it. But I find when I'm spending my own money, I'm much more frugal than when spending someone else's. She might decide a cheaper ring is fine, or she might see the value of putting the money into an investment, or she might pay for an engagement closet (which my friend gave his wife!). Or she might just buy the ring.
Whatever you do, make sure this doesn't fester. If her wanting the ring makes you so frustrated that you bring it up over and over in your marriage, that'll be a terrible thing. If you can't just let go of the money, then maybe it really is a deal breaker. No reason to be unhappy for years over $25K.
Good luck and I wish you much happiness.
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@CommonCents: I took it to mean that she not only expected 2 carats, she expected that the ring would be in the 25k range. If not, then of course it's a different story...although most ring-loving brides I know have looked up rings well before their engagement and have an idea of the price range of the ring type/style they want, especially if they've already talked to their partners about it.
The difference between this bride and you and Caliq is that it sounds like the ring purchase was a very mutual decision. Or perhaps the big issue here is that OP needs to communicate better with his lady.
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Actually, I just remembered that it used to be much more common to get an engagement watch after you popped the question. Maybe you should tell her that you expect a similarly valued watch to the $25k ring?
Maybe it would work out better if she had to match the value to give to a charity. It's a symbol that we can cherish together for ever...lol.
Well, for me at least, I have significantly more to charity than DH, so that wouldn't "punish" me. Maybe it would for her.
I did decline the offer of his mom's ring from her abusive marriage though (it's one thing if I don't know the person/history, but another when you do), but he didn't want it either.
I find this funny...because it's just a ring.
Yeah. That's practical. And I get people think that way. But his family still has major tension/emotional impact from the marriage which results in walking on eggshells and all sorts of complicated situations, even when they are not in the same room such as for our/his brother's wedding. (As opposed to my parents, who are still happily married after 45 years.) For me, while I don't believe object carry bad "juju", having a constant reminder would be extremely unpleasant and not something negative in my life I particularly need. In any event, I wasn't excited by it and luckily DH wasn't either and didn't want me to have it (and he's the one who remembers his dad hitting his mom - and then the kids). It was not the setting or stone that appealed either.
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Holy shit, this thread is still going. I hope everyone saying the same stuff that's been said ten times is enjoying the circlejerk.
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We used my DH's grandmother's ring with a beautiful art deco setting and lovely old diamonds. Not only was it pretty, but it was FREE! The ring is getting a bit fragile so I have put it away and plan to get some work done on it. In the meantime, I spent $10 on a sterling silver CZ. I get tons of compliments on it. Of course, instead of just saying thank you, I usually open my mouth and say, "Thanks! It's totally fake!"
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Holy shit, this thread is still going. I hope everyone saying the same stuff that's been said ten times is enjoying the circlejerk.
Guys, have you looked at pricescope.com???? Leave the gold-digger! Except my husband gave me a big rock and I'm not materialistic AT ALL.
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Holy shit, this thread is still going. I hope everyone saying the same stuff that's been said ten times is enjoying the circlejerk.
I was surprised too upon returning from my holiday. OP seems to have stopped participating in the discussion too so i guess he has had all the advice he needs.
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I used UnionDiamond.com for the stone and bought a setting from a local jeweler. If you buy online make sure to spend the extra few hundred bucks to get it appraised by a professional - to make sure what they sent you matches the certificate. Don't forget to consider insurance for the ring. I pay $262 per year for my policy - the ring was valued at around $15K in 2008, so your insurance will probably be a bit more.
I think you're paying too much! I don't know where you live, but I have more than that value on a separate jewelry rider along with my renter's insurance from State Farm, and I only pay around $90/year.
You inspired me to shop for other quotes. Surprisingly, I got the exact same quote from two other firms. I live in a high cost of living area :(
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I used UnionDiamond.com for the stone and bought a setting from a local jeweler. If you buy online make sure to spend the extra few hundred bucks to get it appraised by a professional - to make sure what they sent you matches the certificate. Don't forget to consider insurance for the ring. I pay $262 per year for my policy - the ring was valued at around $15K in 2008, so your insurance will probably be a bit more.
I think you're paying too much! I don't know where you live, but I have more than that value on a separate jewelry rider along with my renter's insurance from State Farm, and I only pay around $90/year.
You inspired me to shop for other quotes. Surprisingly, I got the exact same quote from two other firms. I live in a high cost of living area :(
The gift that keeps on giving but the gift is not worth shit!
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Guys, have you looked at pricescope.com???? Leave the gold-digger! Except my husband gave me a big rock and I'm not materialistic AT ALL.
I was surprised too upon returning from my holiday. OP seems to have stopped participating in the discussion too so i guess he has had all the advice he needs.
Reach over to the genitals of the person on your left and get going. DAE diamond politics?
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The OP doesn't seem to be around...
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I think this thread as a first experience on this forum would be enough to put most people off.
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I saw this article and thought of this thread.
http://www.ozy.com/acumen/in-sickness-and-in-health-but-not-in-debt/38366?utm_source=NH&utm_medium=pp&utm_campaign=pp (http://www.ozy.com/acumen/in-sickness-and-in-health-but-not-in-debt/38366?utm_source=NH&utm_medium=pp&utm_campaign=pp)
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The nicest wedding I ever went to was in the large backyard of a friend of the bride's, beside a stream. They rented a tent, tablecloths, tables and chairs. China, silver and napkins came from thrift shops and garage sales. Table decorations were wildflowers in mason jars. Runners were burlap. Food was brought by friends and family. Drinks were beer on tap, an awesome champagne punch, and homemade iced tea and lemonade. The bride's dress was handmade by a friend. Bridesmaids wore their favorite LBD. The groom and groomsmen wore navy blazers, khakis and matching ties from Brooks Brothers. Photos were taken by a cousin. Everyone at the wedding was relaxed and happy. I generally don't like weddings, but this one was more like a fancy picnic.
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Update on the issue via NPR:
http://www.npr.org/2015/01/08/375756298/want-your-marriage-to-last-start-with-a-huge-cheap-wedding
"Guys investing between $2,000 and $4,000 on an engagement ring were 1.3 times more likely to get divorced compared with the more frugal fellows who only allocate between $500 and $2,000. (That said, odds are even better for guys who can drop more than $8,000, possibly because divorce also decreases with higher incomes.)
For both sexes, spending more than $20,000 on the wedding ups the odds of divorce by 3.5 times compared with couples who keep it between $5,000 and $10,000.
For the best odds, though, keep the festivities to less than $1,000."