Author Topic: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy  (Read 110597 times)

wild wendella

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 82
  • Location: Stamford, CT
Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #100 on: February 02, 2015, 10:14:08 AM »
Right.  As stated, my goal in posting was to 'try to describe my situation, in case it helps lend another perspective'.  I assure you I have read studies (actually read them, not just the summary opinions), and I am both intelligent and educated.  People posting here indicated they wanted to read another opinion, and read why someone came to an opinion other than their own, and that is what I have offered.

Quinn

  • Guest
Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #101 on: February 02, 2015, 10:22:23 AM »
I didn't find any that were convincing one way or the other.  Most are funded by the pharmaceutical companies, and if you read the study critically you find obvious flaws.
I found that the available science wasn't really very good.
I do not believe sufficient studies have been done, and would like to see better, independently done, science.

Going back to your original reply, you mentioned several times that you think that the current studies are not well done and that current science is not very good. Why do you think so? What are the obvious flaws? I am honestly curious.

Luck better Skill

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 283
  • Location: Virginia
Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #102 on: February 02, 2015, 10:30:56 AM »
I didn't find any that were convincing one way or the other.  Most are funded by the pharmaceutical companies, and if you read the study critically you find obvious flaws.
I found that the available science wasn't really very good.
I do not believe sufficient studies have been done, and would like to see better, independently done, science.

Going back to your original reply, you mentioned several times that you think that the current studies are not well done and that current science is not very good. Why do you think so? What are the obvious flaws? I am honestly curious.

  Having worked in a hospital I can assure you that some of the science practiced by modern medicine is tradition.  Sometime no research, shoddy researched or bias studies.  In addition more is being learned all the time.  My earlier post showed we now know that vaccines can cause side effects in some people.  It would seem Wild Windella concern for her son has a scientific base. 

Quinn

  • Guest
Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #103 on: February 02, 2015, 10:33:35 AM »
I didn't find any that were convincing one way or the other.  Most are funded by the pharmaceutical companies, and if you read the study critically you find obvious flaws.
I found that the available science wasn't really very good.
I do not believe sufficient studies have been done, and would like to see better, independently done, science.

Going back to your original reply, you mentioned several times that you think that the current studies are not well done and that current science is not very good. Why do you think so? What are the obvious flaws? I am honestly curious.

  Having worked in a hospital I can assure you that some of the science practiced by modern medicine is tradition.  Sometime no research, shoddy researched or bias studies.  In addition more is being learned all the time.  My earlier post showed we now know that vaccines can cause side effects in some people.  It would seem Wild Windella concern for her son has a scientific base.

What is that scientific base though?

matchewed

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4420
  • Location: CT
Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #104 on: February 02, 2015, 10:40:08 AM »
I didn't find any that were convincing one way or the other.  Most are funded by the pharmaceutical companies, and if you read the study critically you find obvious flaws.
I found that the available science wasn't really very good.
I do not believe sufficient studies have been done, and would like to see better, independently done, science.

Going back to your original reply, you mentioned several times that you think that the current studies are not well done and that current science is not very good. Why do you think so? What are the obvious flaws? I am honestly curious.

  Having worked in a hospital I can assure you that some of the science practiced by modern medicine is tradition.  Sometime no research, shoddy researched or bias studies.  In addition more is being learned all the time.  My earlier post showed we now know that vaccines can cause side effects in some people.  It would seem Wild Windella concern for her son has a scientific base.

Science and medicine are two different things though. While medicine may be informed by science (in this case that vaccines work, they have low risk, and they don't cause autism), medicine practices aren't always scientific (tonselectamies, bleeding people, and using acids to cure STD's). Working in a hospital doesn't mean you have a better grasp of the studies of science. Can you point to the science in her claim that the vaccines are giving her child autism?

cpa cat

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1754
Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #105 on: February 02, 2015, 10:48:15 AM »
Wild Wendella politely gave her point of view. There's no reason to be disrespectful toward her.

It's easy, from an outsider's perspective, to see how her emotions and biases (she believed that her child would be sensitive to chemicals prior to even conceiving him) may have guided or clouded her judgment.

But it's also clear that her doctors failed utterly to reassure her. Instead, she felt railroaded and ignored. She had her child in the care of medical professionals and was cooperating with most of the vaccination process, and they lost her because they weren't sensitive her concerns. That was a failure on their part.

I would hazard to guess that the majority of people here have experienced an instance where a doctor was wrong. I have strong faith in modern medicine, and yet I can recount instances where I have received a wrong diagnosis that did not fit my medical history/symptoms or received perscriptions for medication to which I've disclosed an allergy. So I fully understand Wild's doubts when her doctors dismissed her point view or did things that betrayed her trust.

And you can "Lol, But Science" her all you want - but it won't erase the strong emotions she feels about her child's care. Hopefully she resumes vaccinations at a point when she feels her son is old enough to no longer be at risk (and before putting him in school, daycare or Disney theme park rides) and takes responsible precautions to avoid putting others at risk.

mrsggrowsveg

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 542
Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #106 on: February 02, 2015, 10:50:32 AM »
Many of them moms that I know do not vaccinate their children.  I met them through a breastfeeding group and we had a lot in common like cloth diapering and baby led weaning.  When it came time to vaccinate my son, I did a lot of research.  They warned me of the potential for vaccines to cause everything from food allergies to SIDS.  I spent months reading books, websites and medical publications.  I also looked at the number of vaccine reactions reported in my state.  I couldn't find any good science that supported not vaccinating.  We started out slow with vaccines and then got right on schedule.  It can be hard to get good information because some of the things you find online are very compelling.  They also tend to quote parts of studies and doctors.  However, if you look closely and start reading the sources these were written from you will find that it is just not supported by science. 

Gin1984

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4945
Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #107 on: February 02, 2015, 11:02:22 AM »
Right.  As stated, my goal in posting was to 'try to describe my situation, in case it helps lend another perspective'.  I assure you I have read studies (actually read them, not just the summary opinions), and I am both intelligent and educated.  People posting here indicated they wanted to read another opinion, and read why someone came to an opinion other than their own, and that is what I have offered.
Your original post showed flaws in basic understanding.  But let's start with this post.  Summaries of research studies are not "summary opinions", they are abstracts which give the educated reader a summary of the research within.  The opinion part, is called the discussion and even that has cited sources. 
Going back to your original post about "regressive autism".  Autism is not "regressive autism", it is or has been called: Autistic disorder, Asperger syndrome, Childhood disintegrative disorder, Pervasive developmental disorder.  I am neuroscientist by training and children do not regress into Autism and it has nothing to do with any vaccine.  That has been proven over and over and over.  Multiple funding sources, multiple countries, multiple researchers.
So from there, I can tell you have not learned anything about basic research into vaccines.  This is undergrad stuff, hell you could even explain this to a high school student.  There has been connection with Autism to age of both the mother and father, but no, not to vaccines.  I understand your wish to blame something else.  You showed that by your first line:   I have "multiple chemical sensitivity" (which is just a way of saying my body has toxic overload).
Let's see what the consensus is of medical professionals in regards to this: Many experts and major medical organizations -- such as the American Medical Association and the American Academy of Asthma, Allergy, and Immunology -- have stated that the connection between the patient’s symptoms and environmental exposures are speculative and evidence of disease is lacking.  The American Medical Association Council on Scientific Affairs believes that multiple chemical sensitivity should not be considered a recognized clinical syndrome.
So, you have either found an unscrupulously doctor (I won't say MD because most people who try to diagnosis this are not) or have self-diagnosed.  Then you tried everything to make it so you can have a safe baby.  You took information, without the background to understand it, feeling understandably very defensive so when the doctor recommended amniocentesis you reacted "that could KILL my baby".  There is a different level of risk for fetus than a born human.  I understand that he was your baby in the womb but to a researcher, fetus. 
And measles does not just kill.  It also can cause pneumonia, which for a young child kills.  1:20, not 1:1000 but 1:20.  Every twenty kids your child is around, you could cause him to kill one.  That kind of callousness is horrifying.  I can't stop you from risking your child's life, but at least go off somewhere where you are not going to harm others.  Go find a group, like in Or where they all believe this crap and stay there.  Don't get medical treatment, stay away from kids and elderly and the immune-compermised and live that way.  But don't think your way is healthy, or not a risk to your child or everyone else.    Btw, you also missed the damage that measles can do to the CNS.  1 or 2 out of 1000  get encephalitis.  You also missed the possible damage to any pregnant women you happen to bring your child around.  I'm sure they don't want their child to be in NICU because of your child.  Or let's talk about Subacute sclerosing panencephalitis which also causes death.  The kid might survive and then 10 years down the line, die because of being exposed to measles. 
But that does not matter right?  Because you are sure you know more than 1000s of researchers and MDs that have worked with this for years.  They must be wrong and you are right because you are mom.  Your poor child.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 12:04:23 PM by Gin1984 »

Gin1984

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4945
Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #108 on: February 02, 2015, 11:06:05 AM »
Wild Wendella politely gave her point of view. There's no reason to be disrespectful toward her.

It's easy, from an outsider's perspective, to see how her emotions and biases (she believed that her child would be sensitive to chemicals prior to even conceiving him) may have guided or clouded her judgment.

But it's also clear that her doctors failed utterly to reassure her. Instead, she felt railroaded and ignored. She had her child in the care of medical professionals and was cooperating with most of the vaccination process, and they lost her because they weren't sensitive her concerns. That was a failure on their part.

I would hazard to guess that the majority of people here have experienced an instance where a doctor was wrong. I have strong faith in modern medicine, and yet I can recount instances where I have received a wrong diagnosis that did not fit my medical history/symptoms or received perscriptions for medication to which I've disclosed an allergy. So I fully understand Wild's doubts when her doctors dismissed her point view or did things that betrayed her trust.

And you can "Lol, But Science" her all you want - but it won't erase the strong emotions she feels about her child's care. Hopefully she resumes vaccinations at a point when she feels her son is old enough to no longer be at risk (and before putting him in school, daycare or Disney theme park rides) and takes responsible precautions to avoid putting others at risk.
I don't have to respect people who willfully risk other's lives.  I don't have to respect people who decide to live ignorantly.  You can't expect a doctor to explain years of science in the time they have.  That is why we need to educate ourselves or trust the experts.  Either is fine, but deciding to risk other people because you feel the doctor was mean, is not something to respect.  If you did not get the information, go back to school.  Pick up a high school, then college biology textbook.  Get educated, but don't expect the MD or the person the street to handhold you because you chose to harm others.

MishMash

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 731
Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #109 on: February 02, 2015, 11:25:00 AM »
re: HPV

Do you know what's crazy? They don't even test guys for it in STD screens. I was getting into a serious relationship so me and my girlfriend at the time both got the STD panel to make sure we were OK and it comes back clean for everything e.g. HIV, Gonorrhea, Syphilis, etc. Then I asked the doctor - what about HPV? Answer: We don't test males for that.

wtf!

My now husband and I did the same thing when we first started getting serious.  The doctor actually gave him a hard time asking for a Gonorrhea and Syphillis test.  Point blank asked my husband "do you REALLY want to know, I mean is it going to change anything if you know you are positive?"  My husband was like uuuuh yea, it would, I would get it taken care of.  The doc was like but if SHE doesn't know what concern is it to you?  And he was dead serious.  My husband filed 4 ICE complaints on that guy by the time it was all said and done, he couldn't believe it.

IE flu shot.  As someone who got one, then promptly almost died 3 days later due an acute septic reaction that left me temporarily disabled due to lung damage from a 108 fever, I'll never get another one EVER (that was 14 years ago and I still haven't gotten the flu).  That said, flu shot is personal, it doesn't really affect anyone else if I get the flu, that's on me, it's not like I'm spreading a life threatening disease.  MMR etc should hands down be mandatory.

Glenstache

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3617
  • Age: 95
  • Location: Upper left corner
  • Plug pulled
Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #110 on: February 02, 2015, 11:34:17 AM »
That said, flu shot is personal, it doesn't really affect anyone else if I get the flu, that's on me, it's not like I'm spreading a life threatening disease.  MMR etc should hands down be mandatory.

Actually, thousands of people die in the US from the flu every year.
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/disease/us_flu-related_deaths.htm

Part of the purpose in healthy people getting the shot is to not give the flu to those who are immunocompromised or otherwise can't take the vaccine. Please don't go visiting any chemo wards any time soon.

cpa cat

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1754
Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #111 on: February 02, 2015, 11:35:39 AM »
I don't have to respect people who willfully risk other's lives.  I don't have to respect people who decide to live ignorantly.  You can't expect a doctor to explain years of science in the time they have.  That is why we need to educate ourselves or trust the experts. 

Clearly you feel strongly about this subject. I also feel strongly about it (as stated previously). You're right, you don't have to be respectful toward anyone. But, if you're not respectful, you will never convince anyone that they're wrong. You're just screaming into the wind.

I have a much higher expectations of doctors than you. I think that if someone chooses to go into pediatric or family medicine, then they should be able to explain things to average, emotional parents. But we can agree to disagree on that point.

Finally, I would like to point out that people like Wild have chosen to educate themselves rather than trust the experts. She believes that she educated herself appropriately. Just saying, "You FAIL, ignoramus!" isn't likely to change her mind. You may as well tell a brick wall that it fails at being soft.

Luck better Skill

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 283
  • Location: Virginia
Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #112 on: February 02, 2015, 11:38:44 AM »
I didn't find any that were convincing one way or the other.  Most are funded by the pharmaceutical companies, and if you read the study critically you find obvious flaws.
I found that the available science wasn't really very good.
I do not believe sufficient studies have been done, and would like to see better, independently done, science.

Going back to your original reply, you mentioned several times that you think that the current studies are not well done and that current science is not very good. Why do you think so? What are the obvious flaws? I am honestly curious.

  Having worked in a hospital I can assure you that some of the science practiced by modern medicine is tradition.  Sometime no research, shoddy researched or bias studies.  In addition more is being learned all the time.  My earlier post showed we now know that vaccines can cause side effects in some people.  It would seem Wild Windella concern for her son has a scientific base.

What is that scientific base though?

The scientific base is that the CDC has admitted to research that shows a few people will suffer side effects to vaccine shots.  In Windella post the doctor simple refused to consider or check to see if her child could have been one of those few.  No test were done to prove or disprove what she stated, but she was the one observing and caring for the child, thus more aware of the reactions he had.

Edit,
Let me clarify, I am not saying the vaccine was giving her child autism, I am saying he was having negative reactions to it.  The doctor ignored her concern about side effects to the vaccine. 
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 11:46:57 AM by Luck better Skill »

James

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1678
  • Age: 52
  • Location: Rice Lake, WI
Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #113 on: February 02, 2015, 11:46:13 AM »
I love this video...


Penn and Teller on Vaccinations
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfdZTZQvuCo


I have all sorts of constructive thoughts on vaccines, but would rather just post that. :D

wild wendella

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 82
  • Location: Stamford, CT
Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #114 on: February 02, 2015, 11:51:58 AM »
acorn:  I'll gather and summarize some of the concerns about the studies I read, it will likely take a few days though.  I should actually be working right now, not checking this forum.  ;)

Gin1984 - I was diagnosed by doctors at Yale, years ago.
 
I did not at any point in my post say I think vaccines *cause* autism.  I do, however, think there are many contributing factors and triggers, and we simply do not know enough to be confident in what those factors are.  And of course, Autism isn't the only concern.

My concerns towards vaccines weren't based on my own history with MCS, I only provided that as background. My son had two very bad reactions to vaccines - neither of which was reported to VAERS - those reactions combined with other indicators are what caused me to pause. 

I'm definitely regretting jumping into this discussion. I naively thought it would be helpful for people to understand why an intelligent person would question the vaccine schedule recommendations.  The original poster wondered 'Are these the same people who do not believe in evolution or climate change?'  No.  But all I've managed to do is illicit insults to my intelligence, so other than a response to acorn in a few days, I'll stop posting on this topic.   

Gin1984

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4945
Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #115 on: February 02, 2015, 11:55:13 AM »
I didn't find any that were convincing one way or the other.  Most are funded by the pharmaceutical companies, and if you read the study critically you find obvious flaws.
I found that the available science wasn't really very good.
I do not believe sufficient studies have been done, and would like to see better, independently done, science.

Going back to your original reply, you mentioned several times that you think that the current studies are not well done and that current science is not very good. Why do you think so? What are the obvious flaws? I am honestly curious.

  Having worked in a hospital I can assure you that some of the science practiced by modern medicine is tradition.  Sometime no research, shoddy researched or bias studies.  In addition more is being learned all the time.  My earlier post showed we now know that vaccines can cause side effects in some people.  It would seem Wild Windella concern for her son has a scientific base.

What is that scientific base though?

The scientific base is that the CDC has admitted to research that shows a few people will suffer side effects to vaccine shots.  In Windella post the doctor simple refused to consider or check to see if her child could have been one of those few.  No test were done to prove or disprove what she stated, but she was the one observing and caring for the child, thus more aware of the reactions he had.

Edit,
Let me clarify, I am not saying the vaccine was giving her child autism, I am saying he was having negative reactions to it.  The doctor ignored her concern about side effects to the vaccine.
My bet is she showed the same thing to her son's doctor that she showed here, and that made him not trust her observations.  Her statements in her OP made any observation she had suspect.  She says she has a made up disease, does not want to give her kid life saving treatment, why would anyone consider her statement valid?  If I go in to a doctor, I do not have a problem getting listened to, and the MD does not make decision for me, she or he gives me the recommendation and I chose.  But again, that requires have a knowledge base that this woman does not have.  You all seem to think that MD should be explaining/handholding etc, why is that?  I expect informed consent, but that means you have to have a base and the MD can't explain high school and college level science, not if they want to actually treat patients.  Isn't the patient's job? 
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 12:23:02 PM by Gin1984 »

Luck better Skill

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 283
  • Location: Virginia
Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #116 on: February 02, 2015, 11:56:00 AM »
I didn't find any that were convincing one way or the other.  Most are funded by the pharmaceutical companies, and if you read the study critically you find obvious flaws.
I found that the available science wasn't really very good.
I do not believe sufficient studies have been done, and would like to see better, independently done, science.

Going back to your original reply, you mentioned several times that you think that the current studies are not well done and that current science is not very good. Why do you think so? What are the obvious flaws? I am honestly curious.

  Having worked in a hospital I can assure you that some of the science practiced by modern medicine is tradition.  Sometime no research, shoddy researched or bias studies.  In addition more is being learned all the time.  My earlier post showed we now know that vaccines can cause side effects in some people.  It would seem Wild Windella concern for her son has a scientific base.

Science and medicine are two different things though. While medicine may be informed by science (in this case that vaccines work, they have low risk, and they don't cause autism), medicine practices aren't always scientific (tonselectamies, bleeding people, and using acids to cure STD's). Working in a hospital doesn't mean you have a better grasp of the studies of science. Can you point to the science in her claim that the vaccines are giving her child autism?

  I am not sure you realize your statement that medicine is not always scientific proves my point.  Tonselectamies were based on the science of the day, which science later proved to be questionable.  I am sure the first people to question the practice of bleeding people, etc were considered uneducated.

  In the hospital I listened to the conversations of many people you consider medical professionals.  The experts discuss new practices or studies was very enlightening to how accurate science is.

  To clarify I do not think vaccines cause autism.  I do know that an outbreak of polo in the USA was the result of improper handling of the polo vaccine.  Mistakes do happen, we are human.

cpa cat

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1754
Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #117 on: February 02, 2015, 12:03:04 PM »
If I go in to a doctor, I do not have a problem getting listened to, and the MD does not make decision for me, she or he gives me the recommendation and chose. 

Wild did not share this experience. She did have trouble getting the doctor to listen to her. She did feel that the MD made decisions for her and removed her choice.

Quote
But again, that requires have a knowledge base that this woman does not have.  You all seem to think that MD should be explaining/handholding etc, why is that?  I expect informed consent, but that means you have to have a base and the MD can't explain high school and college level science, not if they want to actually treat patients.  Isn't the patient's job?

So if the MD disagrees with your choice or feels that you're not educated enough, then there's no such thing as informed consent? The MD just does whatever they want, without needing to explain it to you or receive your consent?

On the bright side, I think you're mostly incorrect. Many doctors are excellent at briefly and cogently explaining science and medicine to their patients - so that they can be assured that their patients are informed. Most make the effort. Unfortunately, some doctors do not. And those doctors alienate patients make them distrustful of the medical profession.

Gin1984

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4945
Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #118 on: February 02, 2015, 12:17:47 PM »
If I go in to a doctor, I do not have a problem getting listened to, and the MD does not make decision for me, she or he gives me the recommendation and chose. 

Wild did not share this experience. She did have trouble getting the doctor to listen to her. She did feel that the MD made decisions for her and removed her choice.

Quote
But again, that requires have a knowledge base that this woman does not have.  You all seem to think that MD should be explaining/handholding etc, why is that?  I expect informed consent, but that means you have to have a base and the MD can't explain high school and college level science, not if they want to actually treat patients.  Isn't the patient's job?

So if the MD disagrees with your choice or feels that you're not educated enough, then there's no such thing as informed consent? The MD just does whatever they want, without needing to explain it to you or receive your consent?

On the bright side, I think you're mostly incorrect. Many doctors are excellent at briefly and cogently explaining science and medicine to their patients - so that they can be assured that their patients are informed. Most make the effort. Unfortunately, some doctors do not. And those doctors alienate patients make them distrustful of the medical profession.
Actually the US, sadly, MDs can go to court to override parents who are unable to give informed consent.  I hate that, I think we all have a responsibility to have a basic education, at least those capable of one and we should always put those in our charge first.  But people don't, so they do have that right.  And no, MDs are not always right and I fully recommend and encourage second options.  But again, you need to be able to understand them.
And no, I know MDs and they don't explain why they do things, in most cases, unless the person is educated and asks the right questions. 

For example, when was the last time you were given a PDR insert with a drug?  Most of the time, they say talk to the pharmacist.  Why?  Because most people don't have the education and the pharmacist can hand hold you through.  Or have you ever been told here are the two medicine that would treat your condition, which one do you want? Most people don't because they don't have that knowledge base.  But we are not talking medical or pharmaceutical level info here, we are talking basic undergrad and high school level biology.  If you don't have that, you really can't give informed consent.  But what do you expect them to do?  Not treat you?  Ask for you to get a guardian?  Because that is what you do with people with the inability to understand and make medical decision, someone else does it for you (aka children), or you don't get treated.  But (most) MDs don't deal with informed consent like researchers, they just say this is what you need to do, you are over 18, and sign on the dotted line, done. 

And yes, my experience contrasted to her's provides an excellent example for what I am saying.  If you are educated, (most) MDs listen and explain and then the decision is yours.  If you are not, and are saying things that were made up, no they are not going to trust you and they are going to try to do what is right for their patient (the kid).  Why would they?  If someone told you the sky was green and then gave you a pill and said it will make you feel good, would you take it?  There is a different responsibility to a minor than an adult.  Adults can refuse treatment, in most cases kids can't.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 12:31:03 PM by Gin1984 »

matchewed

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4420
  • Location: CT
Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #119 on: February 02, 2015, 12:31:04 PM »
I didn't find any that were convincing one way or the other.  Most are funded by the pharmaceutical companies, and if you read the study critically you find obvious flaws.
I found that the available science wasn't really very good.
I do not believe sufficient studies have been done, and would like to see better, independently done, science.

Going back to your original reply, you mentioned several times that you think that the current studies are not well done and that current science is not very good. Why do you think so? What are the obvious flaws? I am honestly curious.

  Having worked in a hospital I can assure you that some of the science practiced by modern medicine is tradition.  Sometime no research, shoddy researched or bias studies.  In addition more is being learned all the time.  My earlier post showed we now know that vaccines can cause side effects in some people.  It would seem Wild Windella concern for her son has a scientific base.

Science and medicine are two different things though. While medicine may be informed by science (in this case that vaccines work, they have low risk, and they don't cause autism), medicine practices aren't always scientific (tonselectamies, bleeding people, and using acids to cure STD's). Working in a hospital doesn't mean you have a better grasp of the studies of science. Can you point to the science in her claim that the vaccines are giving her child autism?

  I am not sure you realize your statement that medicine is not always scientific proves my point.  Tonselectamies were based on the science of the day, which science later proved to be questionable.  I am sure the first people to question the practice of bleeding people, etc were considered uneducated.

  In the hospital I listened to the conversations of many people you consider medical professionals.  The experts discuss new practices or studies was very enlightening to how accurate science is.

  To clarify I do not think vaccines cause autism.  I do know that an outbreak of polo in the USA was the result of improper handling of the polo vaccine.  Mistakes do happen, we are human.

Maybe I was a bit subtle with my point. Vaccines are based on science and not generic medical practice. Science is a self correcting system. In order for someone to declare vaccines as harmful to a large group of people they'll need to use science and not their anecdotes. Science tells us when something is not reality. Current science tells us that vaccines save way more lives than they harm. My major point was that "I worked in a hospital" doesn't mean that you can discount science. My point was that you were conflating medical practice with science and using that as a way to justify people's wrong impression of vaccines.

So which polio outbreak in the USA are you talking about specifically? When was it? Because I can't find one in the US. So... citation needed.

justajane

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2146
  • Location: Midwest
Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #120 on: February 02, 2015, 12:39:38 PM »
If I go in to a doctor, I do not have a problem getting listened to, and the MD does not make decision for me, she or he gives me the recommendation and chose. 

Wild did not share this experience. She did have trouble getting the doctor to listen to her. She did feel that the MD made decisions for her and removed her choice.

Quote
But again, that requires have a knowledge base that this woman does not have.  You all seem to think that MD should be explaining/handholding etc, why is that?  I expect informed consent, but that means you have to have a base and the MD can't explain high school and college level science, not if they want to actually treat patients.  Isn't the patient's job?

So if the MD disagrees with your choice or feels that you're not educated enough, then there's no such thing as informed consent? The MD just does whatever they want, without needing to explain it to you or receive your consent?

On the bright side, I think you're mostly incorrect. Many doctors are excellent at briefly and cogently explaining science and medicine to their patients - so that they can be assured that their patients are informed. Most make the effort. Unfortunately, some doctors do not. And those doctors alienate patients make them distrustful of the medical profession.

It's admirable of you to be so sensitive to wild's experiences, but what I notice is a sense of victimhood, which should give any Mustachian pause. Once again, the doctors are the horrible meanies who don't listen to me and force me to do things that I don't want to do. We all know people who go on and on about how terrible someone was to them. Ultimately you start to see a pattern. Who's the common denominator in all these types of narratives? I guess my point is that you can't take wild's experiences at face value. Clearly her perceptions are coloring her interpretation of what has unfolded to her and her son medically. I might come across as calloused here, but I've just read too many descriptions just like wild's about how awful doctors are. Either this person is horribly unlucky all the time or her city is where all horrible doctors end up, or there's some creativity in this narrative.

Like someone said upthread (Gin perhaps?), doctors can't force you to do anything. Heck, they can't even force you to do a c-section even if you are going to die without it. They certainly can't force you to do an amniocentesis.

Miss Prim

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 413
  • Location: Michigan
Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #121 on: February 02, 2015, 01:02:45 PM »
I work in Microbiology and I do HPV testing.  It is done off of the vial collected for cytology, basically a pap smear specimen.  It is only done on females.  Males can be tested for chlamydia, gonorrhea and syphilis.  There is no approved test that I know of for men for HPV. 

In regards to vaccinations, we have seen a rise in diseases like whooping cough due to non-vaccination.  A lot of communities are losing their herd immunity due to too many parents not vaccinating.  Believe me, I had my kids vaccinated and didn't think twice about it!

I also had the early Hepatitis B vaccine, because being in the health care field, especially lab, the incidence of hepatitis in laboratory workers was something to worry about.   I had a lab manager die from cancer due to Hepatitis he contracted when he worked in the blood bank. 

                                                                                  Miss Prim


Luck better Skill

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 283
  • Location: Virginia
Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #122 on: February 02, 2015, 01:14:17 PM »
Maybe I was a bit subtle with my point. Vaccines are based on science and not generic medical practice. Science is a self correcting system. In order for someone to declare vaccines as harmful to a large group of people they'll need to use science and not their anecdotes. Science tells us when something is not reality. Current science tells us that vaccines save way more lives than they harm. My major point was that "I worked in a hospital" doesn't mean that you can discount science. My point was that you were conflating medical practice with science and using that as a way to justify people's wrong impression of vaccines.

So which polio outbreak in the USA are you talking about specifically? When was it? Because I can't find one in the US. So... citation needed.

Your subtly was missed.  I am not discounting science, I recommend vaccines.  I was acknowledging that science has proven a few people react to vaccines.  So when I hear someone say my child was sick or disoriented after a vaccine my thought is they should discuss it with their doctor more to be aware this could be an real problem.  Every prescription med I have taken has a warning of signs to look out for.

The polo outbreak was small a few dozen people infected.  May have been treated before it got bad.  There was a new liquid oral polo vaccine.  A few of the first clinics using it were sloppy with procedures and some older patient (1940 pre-polo vaccine age) got the vaccine.  They were showing polo systems.  My break ended so I missed the end of the conversation.

cpa cat

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1754
Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #123 on: February 02, 2015, 01:21:37 PM »
It's admirable of you to be so sensitive to wild's experiences...

My original point was only that Wild came to this thread and politely shared an alternate point of view. She didn't do that to convince everyone that vaccines are bad, or to be convinced that she was making a mistake (although she expressed a willingness to read some of the information provided).

She simply offered a a first-hand account to answer the question, "What are these people thinking?!" which has been asked repeatedly on this thread.

I just don't think it's right to be disrespectful or rude to someone within that context. And if anyone's aim was to change her mind, then being disrespectful and rude is not helpful to achieving that goal.

Now, if everyone just wants to talk to people who agree with them and insult anyone who doesn't - then I daresay some people here were successful. ;)

Gin1984

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4945
Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #124 on: February 02, 2015, 01:29:23 PM »
It's admirable of you to be so sensitive to wild's experiences...

My original point was only that Wild came to this thread and politely shared an alternate point of view. She didn't do that to convince everyone that vaccines are bad, or to be convinced that she was making a mistake (although she expressed a willingness to read some of the information provided).

She simply offered a a first-hand account to answer the question, "What are these people thinking?!" which has been asked repeatedly on this thread.

I just don't think it's right to be disrespectful or rude to someone within that context. And if anyone's aim was to change her mind, then being disrespectful and rude is not helpful to achieving that goal.

Now, if everyone just wants to talk to people who agree with them and insult anyone who doesn't - then I daresay some people here were successful. ;)
But there lies the problem, there are not two points of view here.  There is science based reality and someone either making stuff up or believing someone who is making stuff up.   Pretending they are equal, when one has fact as a basis and one does not is how we end up with "Jesus rode dinosaurs" and such.  And in this case, the consequences can be deadly.  No I don't expect to change her mind, but it has been shown that pretending there are two sides does sway those actually looking for answers.  Showing an anti-science person facts has been shown not to work, so why bother?  But not pretending that she has credibility may make 10 people realize that is crazy not to vaccinate and they vaccinate, then it is worth it.  If she actually was willing to learn she could have gotten it from the doctor or this pdf which was posted twice prior to this: http://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/VaccineStudies.pdf
She chose not to, and in a way to show her absolute lack of base knowledge. 
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 02:02:55 PM by Gin1984 »

justajane

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2146
  • Location: Midwest
Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #125 on: February 02, 2015, 01:36:49 PM »
It's admirable of you to be so sensitive to wild's experiences...

My original point was only that Wild came to this thread and politely shared an alternate point of view. She didn't do that to convince everyone that vaccines are bad, or to be convinced that she was making a mistake (although she expressed a willingness to read some of the information provided).

She simply offered a a first-hand account to answer the question, "What are these people thinking?!" which has been asked repeatedly on this thread.

I just don't think it's right to be disrespectful or rude to someone within that context. And if anyone's aim was to change her mind, then being disrespectful and rude is not helpful to achieving that goal.

Now, if everyone just wants to talk to people who agree with them and insult anyone who doesn't - then I daresay some people here were successful. ;)

I tend to agree with you, especially that being rude is not going to change anyone's mind. But I think what we have seen though is that nothing is going to change anti-vaxxers' minds. I don't imagine those who reacted stongly to her were trying to change her mind. They were rather lashing out because there is a real human cost to the ignorance that she originally displayed in her comment. In general, the majority of the public is just fed up and tired of acting like there are two sides to this debate.

I will give leeway to debate respectfully with those who delay, but it was clear (at least to me) from wild's post that vaccines and a generic concept of chemicals are the catch-all bugaboos in her life. It's textbook anti-vaccine bullshit frankly, and that's what people were probably reacting to.

Oh, and one more thing - aluminum is the new mercury.

matchewed

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4420
  • Location: CT
Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #126 on: February 02, 2015, 01:38:10 PM »
Maybe I was a bit subtle with my point. Vaccines are based on science and not generic medical practice. Science is a self correcting system. In order for someone to declare vaccines as harmful to a large group of people they'll need to use science and not their anecdotes. Science tells us when something is not reality. Current science tells us that vaccines save way more lives than they harm. My major point was that "I worked in a hospital" doesn't mean that you can discount science. My point was that you were conflating medical practice with science and using that as a way to justify people's wrong impression of vaccines.

So which polio outbreak in the USA are you talking about specifically? When was it? Because I can't find one in the US. So... citation needed.

Your subtly was missed.  I am not discounting science, I recommend vaccines.  I was acknowledging that science has proven a few people react to vaccines.  So when I hear someone say my child was sick or disoriented after a vaccine my thought is they should discuss it with their doctor more to be aware this could be an real problem.  Every prescription med I have taken has a warning of signs to look out for.

The polo outbreak was small a few dozen people infected.  May have been treated before it got bad.  There was a new liquid oral polo vaccine.  A few of the first clinics using it were sloppy with procedures and some older patient (1940 pre-polo vaccine age) got the vaccine.  They were showing polo systems.  My break ended so I missed the end of the conversation.

But in this case the person saying that the vaccines are bad did talk to their doctor and still discounted what was said. No one is saying that there cannot be complications. What we're saying is that the complications described aren't from vaccines and there hasn't been a connection drawn between eczema, autism, food sensitivity, making eye contact, or sleep issues to vaccinations. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

So you overheard a conversation and therefore know there is a polio outbreak in the US, know the method of vaccine delivery, the how of "mistake", roughly how many, and yet I can't find anything in the news. Could it be possible you misheard or that there is no polio outbreak in the US at this time due to vaccination delivery or not?

Luck better Skill

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 283
  • Location: Virginia
Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #127 on: February 02, 2015, 02:08:09 PM »
Reduce-

But in this case the person saying that the vaccines are bad did talk to their doctor and still discounted what was said. No one is saying that there cannot be complications. What we're saying is that the complications described aren't from vaccines and there hasn't been a connection drawn between eczema, autism, food sensitivity, making eye contact, or sleep issues to vaccinations. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.


  My observation was how the layperson was considered in the wrong as we all know the king, nobles, priest, lawyers, educated, humans, Vulcan scientist never make mistakes.
  Many great breakthroughs started with some claim out of the ordinary.  I find an irony that the science crowd cannot tolerate questions, some to the point of hostility.  I never thought I would hear comments like, "You cannot question the science?  The debate is over?  The majority believe?  How could someone not just blindly trust?" 
  I know a para-diam shift will not happen overnight.  But as long as science is held in God like status it will bode ill for humanity.

matchewed

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4420
  • Location: CT
Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #128 on: February 02, 2015, 02:22:55 PM »
Reduce-

But in this case the person saying that the vaccines are bad did talk to their doctor and still discounted what was said. No one is saying that there cannot be complications. What we're saying is that the complications described aren't from vaccines and there hasn't been a connection drawn between eczema, autism, food sensitivity, making eye contact, or sleep issues to vaccinations. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.


  My observation was how the layperson was considered in the wrong as we all know the king, nobles, priest, lawyers, educated, humans, Vulcan scientist never make mistakes.
  Many great breakthroughs started with some claim out of the ordinary.  I find an irony that the science crowd cannot tolerate questions, some to the point of hostility.  I never thought I would hear comments like, "You cannot question the science?  The debate is over?  The majority believe?  How could someone not just blindly trust?" 
  I know a para-diam shift will not happen overnight.  But as long as science is held in God like status it will bode ill for humanity.

Let's put it this way. Do you or do you not believe that the scientific community knows what it is talking about with vaccines given the long history we have with successful vaccines?

This isn't about putting science on a pedestal, it is about understanding what science is. Science is the cycle of observing experiments to determine a perception of reality that doesn't care about your personal views. What people mean when they say "holding science in God like status" is "don't question my belief". Belief and science are two very different things. People believe many things, and yes the layperson is frequently in the wrong when it comes to very complex systems and ideas. Our body is one of them. So how does a layperson suddenly know more about human biology and medicine than a doctor? Because of belief? It's fine if that leads you to your own downfall, that's your call as an individual. But if you're impacting society and community you are a danger. Typhoid Mary didn't believe she had typhoid. She still killed a great many people because she was a carrier regardless of her belief.

Gin1984

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4945
Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #129 on: February 02, 2015, 02:25:44 PM »
Reduce-

But in this case the person saying that the vaccines are bad did talk to their doctor and still discounted what was said. No one is saying that there cannot be complications. What we're saying is that the complications described aren't from vaccines and there hasn't been a connection drawn between eczema, autism, food sensitivity, making eye contact, or sleep issues to vaccinations. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.


  My observation was how the layperson was considered in the wrong as we all know the king, nobles, priest, lawyers, educated, humans, Vulcan scientist never make mistakes.
  Many great breakthroughs started with some claim out of the ordinary.  I find an irony that the science crowd cannot tolerate questions, some to the point of hostility.  I never thought I would hear comments like, "You cannot question the science?  The debate is over?  The majority believe?  How could someone not just blindly trust?" 
  I know a para-diam shift will not happen overnight.  But as long as science is held in God like status it will bode ill for humanity.
People questioning is great, but again you have to have enough base to determine if the question itself makes sense.  I guestion MDs, PhDs etc all the bloody time and no one has an issue.  That is because my questions come from a base of knowledge.  Her statement here show that she is lacking basic high school/under grad level knowledge.  Great breakthroughs came from a great knowledge base, not from an idiot saying but the sky is green.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 02:33:21 PM by Gin1984 »

MishMash

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 731
Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #130 on: February 02, 2015, 02:40:13 PM »
That said, flu shot is personal, it doesn't really affect anyone else if I get the flu, that's on me, it's not like I'm spreading a life threatening disease.  MMR etc should hands down be mandatory.

Actually, thousands of people die in the US from the flu every year.
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/disease/us_flu-related_deaths.htm

Part of the purpose in healthy people getting the shot is to not give the flu to those who are immunocompromised or otherwise can't take the vaccine. Please don't go visiting any chemo wards any time soon.

And if I'm sick, why exactly would I go to a chemo ward.  Hell, even if I'm NOT sick I'm not visiting a chemo ward.  My father is one of those extremely immunocompromised people you are talking about, which is why I used to get the flu shot to begin with, sorry, I'll practice a little common sense over doing something that almost killed me again.   Just like immunocompromised people practice common sense.  For example, my father doesn't go to large public/crowded places like malls or movie theaters during the high sick times like winter, and holidays.  When he does go in lower seasons he doesn't go during peak hours.  Whether it's the flu or the common cold or MMR, if you are immunocompromised pretty much anything that looks at you cross eyed can kill you...he learned that last year when he almost died from a strep infection that they are pretty sure he breathed in and then it attacked his replacement knee leading to a localized strep infection.

Gin1984

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4945
Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #131 on: February 02, 2015, 02:43:10 PM »
That said, flu shot is personal, it doesn't really affect anyone else if I get the flu, that's on me, it's not like I'm spreading a life threatening disease.  MMR etc should hands down be mandatory.

Actually, thousands of people die in the US from the flu every year.
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/disease/us_flu-related_deaths.htm

Part of the purpose in healthy people getting the shot is to not give the flu to those who are immunocompromised or otherwise can't take the vaccine. Please don't go visiting any chemo wards any time soon.

And if I'm sick, why exactly would I go to a chemo ward.  Hell, even if I'm NOT sick I'm not visiting a chemo ward.  My father is one of those extremely immunocompromised people you are talking about, which is why I used to get the flu shot to begin with, sorry, I'll practice a little common sense over doing something that almost killed me again.   Just like immunocompromised people practice common sense.  For example, my father doesn't go to large public/crowded places like malls or movie theaters during the high sick times like winter, and holidays.  When he does go in lower seasons he doesn't go during peak hours.  Whether it's the flu or the common cold or MMR, if you are immunocompromised pretty much anything that looks at you cross eyed can kill you...he learned that last year when he almost died from a strep infection that they are pretty sure he breathed in and then it attacked his replacement knee leading to a localized strep infection.
I would talk to your doctor about that effect, maybe the nose spray would be better for you.  If you got that from the vaccine, I'd be very concerned about you getting the flu because that is much, much worse.  Obviously this is a discussion to have with your medical professional but it might be a good idea to consider talking about it.

justajane

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2146
  • Location: Midwest
Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #132 on: February 02, 2015, 02:50:23 PM »
I also question my doctors all the time and have almost always received respectful explanations. I'm guessing tone matters quite a bit, and you have to remember that they probably get the same questions all damned day long. It's their job to answer them, but I'm sure they know pretty quickly based on how you phrase your question whether you know of which you speak or can appropriately understand the answer.

I've learned over the years to only gather my general medical knowledge from certain sites. For cursory knowledge I will click on Mayo's site, WebMD sometimes, and oftentimes the FAQs of specialty medical practices (ENTs, pulmonologists, etc.). If I want more in depth coverage I seek synapses from reputable medical journals. I rarely go beyond that and manage to stay pretty well informed. Beyond that....well, I trust my doctor, because he or she knows way more than I do. I have switched doctors once or twice, but that has been because of bed-side manner and not competency.

To me, it's common sense that the science behind vaccines is sound. All these diseases used to be commonplace. Now they are not. People used to get polio. Now they don't. You can find some hilarious explanations in the anti-vaccination crowd how polio dropped not because of the vaccine but because it just somehow naturally declined on its own.

cpa cat

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1754
Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #133 on: February 02, 2015, 02:53:54 PM »
But I think what we have seen though is that nothing is going to change anti-vaxxers' minds. I don't imagine those who reacted stongly to her were trying to change her mind. They were rather lashing out because there is a real human cost to the ignorance that she originally displayed in her comment. In general, the majority of the public is just fed up and tired of acting like there are two sides to this debate.

Actually, my husband told me earlier that a woman that he's friends with on Facebook posted that she decided to vaccinate her kids because the social backlash that she was subjected to was becoming too difficult to deal with (she cited issues with the kids' school and that friends had recently told her that the kids couldn't come over).

So, maybe people are right to be rude. Apparently these people do change their minds if you call them names and beat them with sticks (or at least if you ostracize them enough). I'm willing to admit that I might be wrong about being respectful. ;)

gaja

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1680
Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #134 on: February 02, 2015, 02:55:58 PM »
Maybe I was a bit subtle with my point. Vaccines are based on science and not generic medical practice. Science is a self correcting system. In order for someone to declare vaccines as harmful to a large group of people they'll need to use science and not their anecdotes. Science tells us when something is not reality. Current science tells us that vaccines save way more lives than they harm. My major point was that "I worked in a hospital" doesn't mean that you can discount science. My point was that you were conflating medical practice with science and using that as a way to justify people's wrong impression of vaccines.

So which polio outbreak in the USA are you talking about specifically? When was it? Because I can't find one in the US. So... citation needed.

Your subtly was missed.  I am not discounting science, I recommend vaccines.  I was acknowledging that science has proven a few people react to vaccines.  So when I hear someone say my child was sick or disoriented after a vaccine my thought is they should discuss it with their doctor more to be aware this could be an real problem.  Every prescription med I have taken has a warning of signs to look out for.

The polo outbreak was small a few dozen people infected.  May have been treated before it got bad.  There was a new liquid oral polo vaccine.  A few of the first clinics using it were sloppy with procedures and some older patient (1940 pre-polo vaccine age) got the vaccine.  They were showing polo systems.  My break ended so I missed the end of the conversation.

But in this case the person saying that the vaccines are bad did talk to their doctor and still discounted what was said. No one is saying that there cannot be complications. What we're saying is that the complications described aren't from vaccines and there hasn't been a connection drawn between eczema, autism, food sensitivity, making eye contact, or sleep issues to vaccinations. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

So you overheard a conversation and therefore know there is a polio outbreak in the US, know the method of vaccine delivery, the how of "mistake", roughly how many, and yet I can't find anything in the news. Could it be possible you misheard or that there is no polio outbreak in the US at this time due to vaccination delivery or not?

Looks like this is a known problem with oral polio vaccine, but I can't see any cases in the US. Was one in Canada in the 60s, though: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polio_vaccine#Iatrogenic_.28vaccine-induced.29_polio
(link is to wikipedia, but I've read about this in other sources (including textbooks) before.)

sheepstache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2417
Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #135 on: February 02, 2015, 03:25:06 PM »
The polo outbreak was small a few dozen people infected.  May have been treated before it got bad.  There was a new liquid oral polo vaccine.  A few of the first clinics using it were sloppy with procedures and some older patient (1940 pre-polo vaccine age) got the vaccine.  They were showing polo systems.  My break ended so I missed the end of the conversation.

Listen, you don't know what the world was like before the polo vaccine. People wearing white after Labor Day. Hors d'oeuvre shortages.  It was horrifying.

Glenstache

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3617
  • Age: 95
  • Location: Upper left corner
  • Plug pulled
Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #136 on: February 02, 2015, 03:38:42 PM »
The polo outbreak was small a few dozen people infected.  May have been treated before it got bad.  There was a new liquid oral polo vaccine.  A few of the first clinics using it were sloppy with procedures and some older patient (1940 pre-polo vaccine age) got the vaccine.  They were showing polo systems.  My break ended so I missed the end of the conversation.

Listen, you don't know what the world was like before the polo vaccine. People wearing white after Labor Day. Hors d'oeuvre shortages.  It was horrifying.

Not to take a simple typo too far, but I always thought this is what those unfortunate souls who hadn't received the polo vaccine looked like:

Luck better Skill

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 283
  • Location: Virginia
Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #137 on: February 02, 2015, 05:51:01 PM »
The polo outbreak was small a few dozen people infected.  May have been treated before it got bad.  There was a new liquid oral polo vaccine.  A few of the first clinics using it were sloppy with procedures and some older patient (1940 pre-polo vaccine age) got the vaccine.  They were showing polo systems.  My break ended so I missed the end of the conversation.

Listen, you don't know what the world was like before the polo vaccine. People wearing white after Labor Day. Hors d'oeuvre shortages.  It was horrifying.

Yes I do.  I have had older relatives die of polo.  Right here in the USA. 

matchewed

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4420
  • Location: CT
Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #138 on: February 02, 2015, 05:59:17 PM »
The polo outbreak was small a few dozen people infected.  May have been treated before it got bad.  There was a new liquid oral polo vaccine.  A few of the first clinics using it were sloppy with procedures and some older patient (1940 pre-polo vaccine age) got the vaccine.  They were showing polo systems.  My break ended so I missed the end of the conversation.

Listen, you don't know what the world was like before the polo vaccine. People wearing white after Labor Day. Hors d'oeuvre shortages.  It was horrifying.

Yes I do.  I have had older relatives die of polo.  Right here in the USA.


Luck better Skill

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 283
  • Location: Virginia
Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #139 on: February 02, 2015, 06:17:22 PM »
Reduce-

But in this case the person saying that the vaccines are bad did talk to their doctor and still discounted what was said. No one is saying that there cannot be complications. What we're saying is that the complications described aren't from vaccines and there hasn't been a connection drawn between eczema, autism, food sensitivity, making eye contact, or sleep issues to vaccinations. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.


  My observation was how the layperson was considered in the wrong as we all know the king, nobles, priest, lawyers, educated, humans, Vulcan scientist never make mistakes.
  Many great breakthroughs started with some claim out of the ordinary.  I find an irony that the science crowd cannot tolerate questions, some to the point of hostility.  I never thought I would hear comments like, "You cannot question the science?  The debate is over?  The majority believe?  How could someone not just blindly trust?" 
  I know a para-diam shift will not happen overnight.  But as long as science is held in God like status it will bode ill for humanity.

Let's put it this way. Do you or do you not believe that the scientific community knows what it is talking about with vaccines given the long history we have with successful vaccines?

This isn't about putting science on a pedestal, it is about understanding what science is. Science is the cycle of observing experiments to determine a perception of reality that doesn't care about your personal views. What people mean when they say "holding science in God like status" is "don't question my belief". Belief and science are two very different things. People believe many things, and yes the layperson is frequently in the wrong when it comes to very complex systems and ideas. Our body is one of them. So how does a layperson suddenly know more about human biology and medicine than a doctor? Because of belief? It's fine if that leads you to your own downfall, that's your call as an individual. But if you're impacting society and community you are a danger. Typhoid Mary didn't believe she had typhoid. She still killed a great many people because she was a carrier regardless of her belief.

Science as a hole understands vaccines.  However as you argue not all people do, that includes doctors.

Having knowledge and being able to apply it are two different abilities/skills.  We both support vaccines and understand some people have reactions to them.  Now lets us apply that knowledge to what wild said.

1.  Her child was given a vaccine.
2.  The vaccine was the only new item introduced to the child.  Control environment.
3.  The doctor ignored her concerns and without examining the child or running any test and concluded no issue.  Poor observations skills.
4.  A second time the child was given a vaccine it again reacted poorly.  Observation.

Without more test I would be concerned the child is one of those who reacts to vaccines in a negative manor which is a know scientific fact. My answer is based on scientific method.  I don't have to defend science.  The truth stands on its own.  I can accept that an individual, in this case a doctor made a mistake.

I'm concerned when I hear these answers:
1.  to demonize the mother, (ignorant layperson versus priest/scientist)
2.  Introduce fear (hell/typhoid Mary),
3.  claim it is for the good of society (The greater good/what we do for God)

Again science is not fragile, in the end its will find the truth.  The above statements are emotional.  What I am trying to say is step back, leave the emotion out and give answers based on science and logic.

And if it make you feel better I've already been told I will burn in hell.

Luck better Skill

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 283
  • Location: Virginia
Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #140 on: February 02, 2015, 06:19:55 PM »

Listen, you don't know what the world was like before the polo vaccine. People wearing white after Labor Day. Hors d'oeuvre shortages.  It was horrifying.

Yes I do.  I have had older relatives die of polo.  Right here in the USA.
[/quote]

Missed the joke, I am a fugitive of the fashion police.

caliq

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 675
Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #141 on: February 02, 2015, 06:24:09 PM »
Reduce-

But in this case the person saying that the vaccines are bad did talk to their doctor and still discounted what was said. No one is saying that there cannot be complications. What we're saying is that the complications described aren't from vaccines and there hasn't been a connection drawn between eczema, autism, food sensitivity, making eye contact, or sleep issues to vaccinations. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.


  My observation was how the layperson was considered in the wrong as we all know the king, nobles, priest, lawyers, educated, humans, Vulcan scientist never make mistakes.
  Many great breakthroughs started with some claim out of the ordinary.  I find an irony that the science crowd cannot tolerate questions, some to the point of hostility.  I never thought I would hear comments like, "You cannot question the science?  The debate is over?  The majority believe?  How could someone not just blindly trust?" 
  I know a para-diam shift will not happen overnight.  But as long as science is held in God like status it will bode ill for humanity.

Let's put it this way. Do you or do you not believe that the scientific community knows what it is talking about with vaccines given the long history we have with successful vaccines?

This isn't about putting science on a pedestal, it is about understanding what science is. Science is the cycle of observing experiments to determine a perception of reality that doesn't care about your personal views. What people mean when they say "holding science in God like status" is "don't question my belief". Belief and science are two very different things. People believe many things, and yes the layperson is frequently in the wrong when it comes to very complex systems and ideas. Our body is one of them. So how does a layperson suddenly know more about human biology and medicine than a doctor? Because of belief? It's fine if that leads you to your own downfall, that's your call as an individual. But if you're impacting society and community you are a danger. Typhoid Mary didn't believe she had typhoid. She still killed a great many people because she was a carrier regardless of her belief.

Science as a hole understands vaccines.  However as you argue not all people do, that includes doctors.

Having knowledge and being able to apply it are two different abilities/skills.  We both support vaccines and understand some people have reactions to them.  Now lets us apply that knowledge to what wild said.

1.  Her child was given a vaccine.
2.  The vaccine was the only new item introduced to the child.  Control environment.
3.  The doctor ignored her concerns and without examining the child or running any test and concluded no issue.  Poor observations skills.
4.  A second time the child was given a vaccine it again reacted poorly.  Observation.

Without more test I would be concerned the child is one of those who reacts to vaccines in a negative manor which is a know scientific fact. My answer is based on scientific method.  I don't have to defend science.  The truth stands on its own.  I can accept that an individual, in this case a doctor made a mistake.

I'm concerned when I hear these answers:
1.  to demonize the mother, (ignorant layperson versus priest/scientist)
2.  Introduce fear (hell/typhoid Mary),
3.  claim it is for the good of society (The greater good/what we do for God)

Again science is not fragile, in the end its will find the truth.  The above statements are emotional.  What I am trying to say is step back, leave the emotion out and give answers based on science and logic.

And if it make you feel better I've already been told I will burn in hell.

The thing is, her kid wasn't in a controlled environment.  So any assumptions you make about the effect of the vaccine have to be tempered with the fact that any number of other things were introduced to the child around the same time.  You also have to temper any observations that seem to be correlated with the vaccination with the fact that this was a growing child whose development was progressing daily.  You can't immediately conclude that any deviations from normal development were the result of the vaccine, and not the way the child would have developed in the first place, or the result of some other outside influence.  This is why scientists/science-minded people get so frustrated when explaining how correlation does not equal causation. 
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 07:00:02 PM by caliq »

Gin1984

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4945
Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #142 on: February 02, 2015, 06:42:52 PM »
Reduce-

But in this case the person saying that the vaccines are bad did talk to their doctor and still discounted what was said. No one is saying that there cannot be complications. What we're saying is that the complications described aren't from vaccines and there hasn't been a connection drawn between eczema, autism, food sensitivity, making eye contact, or sleep issues to vaccinations. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.


  My observation was how the layperson was considered in the wrong as we all know the king, nobles, priest, lawyers, educated, humans, Vulcan scientist never make mistakes.
  Many great breakthroughs started with some claim out of the ordinary.  I find an irony that the science crowd cannot tolerate questions, some to the point of hostility.  I never thought I would hear comments like, "You cannot question the science?  The debate is over?  The majority believe?  How could someone not just blindly trust?" 
  I know a para-diam shift will not happen overnight.  But as long as science is held in God like status it will bode ill for humanity.

Let's put it this way. Do you or do you not believe that the scientific community knows what it is talking about with vaccines given the long history we have with successful vaccines?

This isn't about putting science on a pedestal, it is about understanding what science is. Science is the cycle of observing experiments to determine a perception of reality that doesn't care about your personal views. What people mean when they say "holding science in God like status" is "don't question my belief". Belief and science are two very different things. People believe many things, and yes the layperson is frequently in the wrong when it comes to very complex systems and ideas. Our body is one of them. So how does a layperson suddenly know more about human biology and medicine than a doctor? Because of belief? It's fine if that leads you to your own downfall, that's your call as an individual. But if you're impacting society and community you are a danger. Typhoid Mary didn't believe she had typhoid. She still killed a great many people because she was a carrier regardless of her belief.

Science as a hole understands vaccines.  However as you argue not all people do, that includes doctors.

Having knowledge and being able to apply it are two different abilities/skills.  We both support vaccines and understand some people have reactions to them.  Now lets us apply that knowledge to what wild said.

1.  Her child was given a vaccine.
2.  The vaccine was the only new item introduced to the child.  Control environment.
3.  The doctor ignored her concerns and without examining the child or running any test and concluded no issue.  Poor observations skills.
4.  A second time the child was given a vaccine it again reacted poorly.  Observation.

Without more test I would be concerned the child is one of those who reacts to vaccines in a negative manor which is a know scientific fact. My answer is based on scientific method.  I don't have to defend science.  The truth stands on its own.  I can accept that an individual, in this case a doctor made a mistake.

I'm concerned when I hear these answers:
1.  to demonize the mother, (ignorant layperson versus priest/scientist)
2.  Introduce fear (hell/typhoid Mary),
3.  claim it is for the good of society (The greater good/what we do for God)

Again science is not fragile, in the end its will find the truth.  The above statements are emotional.  What I am trying to say is step back, leave the emotion out and give answers based on science and logic.

And if it make you feel better I've already been told I will burn in hell.
I am not demonizing a lay person, I am observing her behavior to know that her observations are suspect.  If we had another lay person with basic science skills or even the willingness learn, who was not claiming to have a disease not recognized by the general medical community or who freaked out at the idea of the Vit K shot, who said, hey these were the issues I had, doctor ignored me, what to do.  The first is to have a sit down with the doctor, the second is to move practices.  Would I have been willing to handhold that person, probably.  Would the MD, more likely.  The issue is not a lay person but a person that has shown that her judgement is suspect.  Now, knowing this and reading her statements about not wanting vaccinate and knowing that an MD has a duty to the patient, the MD's behavior makes sense.  She ignored the comments because the person making them could not be trusted to be a reliable source of information.  Just like I would not even both reading a ranting anti-vaccine blog article, the source is suspect.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 06:44:41 PM by Gin1984 »

okonumiyaki

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 202
Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #143 on: February 02, 2015, 06:55:09 PM »
Slightly off topic, but we are massively biased to value direct experience over reality.

I played around with enough drugs as a student to empirically show myself that experience and reality often do not coincide...  A more obvious example is that to someone who is red-green colour blind, the fact that they do not experience a difference between the wavelengths doesn't alter the reality that they are different wavelengths.   I could only understand quantum physics in terms of the maths, trying to put into "real" analogies just confuses the issue.

Much of modern science is counter-intuitive - the underlying reality of the universe is extremely odd.  Even Einstein found quantum mechanics difficult to accept ("God does not play dice with the Universe")

We are wired to see patterns and look for causations.  But often, they just aren't there.  False positives abound, confirmation bias is a thing, people just never see the man in the gorilla suit (a famous psych experiment)

Basically, our brains are often not to be trusted...

The scientific method is a way to try and counter "intuition" and what is "obvious"  My father once threw away two years of work because one of his grad students had failed to properly randomise a trial, but without that rigour, the results could be challenged.

deborah

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 15988
  • Age: 15
  • Location: Australia or another awesome area
Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #144 on: February 02, 2015, 07:07:15 PM »
Science as a whole understands vaccines.  However as you argue not all people do, that includes doctors.

Having knowledge and being able to apply it are two different abilities/skills.  We both support vaccines and understand some people have reactions to them.  Now lets us apply that knowledge to what wild said.

1.  Her child was given a vaccine.
2.  The vaccine was the only new item introduced to the child.  Controlled environment.
3.  The doctor ignored her concerns and without examining the child or running any test and concluded no issue.  Poor observations skills.
4.  A second time the child was given a vaccine it again reacted poorly.  Observation.

Without more tests I would be concerned the child is one of those who reacts to vaccines in a negative manormanner which is a known scientific fact. My answer is based on scientific method.  I don't have to defend science.  The truth stands on its own.  I can accept that an individual, in this case a doctor made a mistake.

I'm concerned when I hear these answers:
1.  to demonize the mother, (ignorant layperson versus priest/scientist)
2.  Introduce fear (hell/typhoid Mary),
3.  claim it is for the good of society (The greater good/what we do for God)

Again science is not fragile, in the end its will find the truth.  The above statements are emotional.  What I am trying to say is step back, leave the emotion out and give answers based on science and logic.

And if it make you feel better I've already been told I will burn in hell.
There is a lot of emotion here.

Firstly, if a person is told they will have a bad experience, they often do. So I would expect this child to react more badly than most children. I would be surprised if the child had a good experience. Secondly, if the mother has a lot of health problems, whether they are genetic or environmental, I would expect the child to be more prone to health problems than normal. Thirdly, if the child is an only child, born late, the mother is likely to be alarmed by smaller reactions than other mothers are who have several children.

So, in this controlled environment, I would expect a bad reaction to be reported by the mother. And I would expect a worse reaction the second time for all of the above reasons plus the fact the by this stage both mother and child are expecting a bad reaction.

I cannot see any respondent in this thread doing any of the things you have mentioned. Maybe you should re-read their responses.

MDM

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 11711
Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #145 on: February 02, 2015, 09:16:39 PM »
Topical article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/chris-christie-remarks-show-vaccines-potency-in-political-debate/2015/02/02/f1c49a6e-aaff-11e4-abe8-e1ef60ca26de_story.html

For those who don't read all the way to the bottom:
Quote
...various studies have tried to examine the political leanings of those who oppose vaccination, finding that they are drawn from both parties.

“It’s not a homogenous group,” he said. “People who don’t vaccinate are not more likely to congregate politically one side of the aisle or the other.”

Luck better Skill

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 283
  • Location: Virginia
Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #146 on: February 02, 2015, 10:28:23 PM »
Science as a whole understands vaccines.  However as you argue not all people do, that includes doctors.

Having knowledge and being able to apply it are two different abilities/skills.  We both support vaccines and understand some people have reactions to them.  Now lets us apply that knowledge to what wild said.

1.  Her child was given a vaccine.
2.  The vaccine was the only new item introduced to the child.  Controlled environment.
3.  The doctor ignored her concerns and without examining the child or running any test and concluded no issue.  Poor observations skills.
4.  A second time the child was given a vaccine it again reacted poorly.  Observation.

Without more tests I would be concerned the child is one of those who reacts to vaccines in a negative manormanner which is a known scientific fact. My answer is based on scientific method.  I don't have to defend science.  The truth stands on its own.  I can accept that an individual, in this case a doctor made a mistake.

I'm concerned when I hear these answers:
1.  to demonize the mother, (ignorant layperson versus priest/scientist)
2.  Introduce fear (hell/typhoid Mary),
3.  claim it is for the good of society (The greater good/what we do for God)

Again science is not fragile, in the end its will find the truth.  The above statements are emotional.  What I am trying to say is step back, leave the emotion out and give answers based on science and logic.

And if it make you feel better I've already been told I will burn in hell.
There is a lot of emotion here.

Firstly, if a person is told they will have a bad experience, they often do. So I would expect this child to react more badly than most children. I would be surprised if the child had a good experience. Secondly, if the mother has a lot of health problems, whether they are genetic or environmental, I would expect the child to be more prone to health problems than normal. Thirdly, if the child is an only child, born late, the mother is likely to be alarmed by smaller reactions than other mothers are who have several children.

So, in this controlled environment, I would expect a bad reaction to be reported by the mother. And I would expect a worse reaction the second time for all of the above reasons plus the fact the by this stage both mother and child are expecting a bad reaction.

I cannot see any respondent in this thread doing any of the things you have mentioned. Maybe you should re-read their responses.

I agree it was not a perfect controlled environment.  Doctors do not get that to practice medicine in ideal conditions.  Your response is logical as I have tried to be.  You raise good points.

We are reading the same information developing different conclusions.  In the responses a question on her ability being suspect was made because the doctors could not find anything.  Which was my comment on the layperson versus the clergy analogy.  How far back to we have to go to find allergies science had not figured out yet? 

To the women on the form: do we have to go back hundreds of years to find when medicine and science did a terrible job dealing with women's health issue? 

PeteD01

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1822
Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #147 on: February 02, 2015, 10:34:01 PM »
Topical article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/chris-christie-remarks-show-vaccines-potency-in-political-debate/2015/02/02/f1c49a6e-aaff-11e4-abe8-e1ef60ca26de_story.html

For those who don't read all the way to the bottom:
Quote
...various studies have tried to examine the political leanings of those who oppose vaccination, finding that they are drawn from both parties.

“It’s not a homogenous group,” he said. “People who don’t vaccinate are not more likely to congregate politically one side of the aisle or the other.”

Yeah, it is a manifestation of the endemic condition "Cogitatio infirma", also known as "Weak Thinking". Some think that a lack of formal education early in life predisposes the mind to poor idling behavior later in life. Others say that a biological agent that is not respecting party lines is involved and a vaccine could be be developed once the agent is identified. The general consensus is that the production of BS is the natural state of affairs of a mind relieved from its responsibilities when existential needs are satisfied. Statistically speaking, considering the empiric evidence, the general consensus has the upper hand as it has been shown that the amount of BS produced in historical times easily outweighs the mass of dark matter contained in the universe (citation needed). This, of course, begets the question if the natural is also to be considered the normal and what the desirable would be once that is worked out.
Pragmatically, it comes down to what to do with the nutters. Here, the general consensus appears to be to let them be as long as they do not become a major public health issue, in which case a policy response would assuredly follow. Sadly, unless a disease becomes endemic again or an epidemic breaks out, the risk of having ones vaccinated children and immunocompromised relatives and friends exposed to the nutters and their kin will keep rising the more traction they get. There is little one can do apart from social pressure on schools etc, but one can certainly refrain from trolling the nutters with threads like this - it only gives them a forum for a debate that does not exist outside the nutters' circles (chief nutter and international Ebola expert Chris Christie notwithstanding).
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 10:35:34 PM by PeteD01 »

dividendman

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2406
Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #148 on: February 02, 2015, 10:36:58 PM »
Well, at least natural selection is still around in some form... although people not taking vaccines hurts everyone, in the long run it'll hurt people who don't take them the most.

PKFFW

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 749
Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #149 on: February 02, 2015, 10:56:29 PM »
A few thoughts...

1:  I'm pro vaccination.  Should I ever have children I will vaccinate them.  I am up to date on all of mine except the flu as there is none for purchase yet here in Australia due to a manufacturing problem.

2:  There is NO cervical vaccine.  There is a vaccine against HPV.  HPV is a virus that can but does not always cause cervical cancer.  HPV does cause approximately 70% of cervical cancers but there are many other causes of cervical cancer besides HPV.  The idea that Gardasil is a cervical cancer vaccine is, in my opinion, a silently encouraged by the manufacturer false advertising campaign.  If people are going to insist others should be informed and intelligent on the subject then it would behoove them to do the same.

3:  Many here have suggested one should be informed and ask questions of their doctors and do all the "right stuff" with regards to vaccines.  These same people have then remonstrated anyone who does not simply accept the doctors advice at face value and get every vaccine they are told to get.  This seems.....odd to me.

If one needs university level science degrees to hold an opinion valid enough to warrant not taking a vaccine, as has been suggested in this thread many times, then what is the point of asking any questions or trying to be informed?  Why not simply state that people should take the vaccine as and when ordered and no discussion will be entered into thank you very much?