Author Topic: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy  (Read 105539 times)

TrulyStashin

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #50 on: February 01, 2015, 10:20:16 AM »
Important fact:

A person infected with measles is contagious for FOUR DAYS  before symptoms of illness appear. Measles is spread by air, making it highly contagious.  The only thing that effectively protects us against measles, mumps, pertussis, polio, etc. is "herd immunity" -- high rates of vaccination among the whole population.

Vaccines serve two purposes:   protecting an individual and protecting others.

Don't want to vaccinate your child?  Ok.  But your kid is no longer allowed in public places.


Gin1984

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #51 on: February 01, 2015, 10:22:50 AM »

Not an educated view, the educated view is the recommended schedule, you know that recommendation by MDs, those people actually educated.  And no, there is no actual research to suggest spreading them out is a good idea unless the child is immuno-compermised.  And no, nothing you said here is at all scientific.

And here it comes.

I realize your point. The doctors, the CDC, and vaccine companies are more educated on the recommended schedule. As I mentioned more specifically, a scientific approach to the growing peanut allergies and the obvious use of peanut oil in some vaccines seems oddly correlative. The good scientific thing to do would be to ask a question (Step 1). Next we would need to set up an experiment to gather data followed by gathering data and performing analysis of that data. I think I addressed the point of asking that question and not outright dismissal of doctor recommendations.

If my doctor recommends the flu shot, should I get that? I'm not inclined to think so based on the research behind the effectiveness of seasonal flu shots, multiple strains, and the non-deadly affects of the flu on an otherwise healthy individual. Thus, I might not always be inclined to blindly follow the educated ones' advice.

This is exactly what I was talking about when I said that "Doing your own research" is often just a method for allowing other fanatics on the internet to overrule common sense.

The assumption that "doing your own research" is only an internet search seems a little misleading and frustratingly condescending. Doing research on my own can and does include asking the very doctors that are on board with the recommended schedule as well as other countries' vaccination schedules. If my quick links earlier seemed to be resourced from the internet as the reason for the assumption, that is partially on me.

Keep bringing the hate if it seems deserved.
Given your base is incorrect, again no you are not being scientific.  You are either making shit up or believing other people making shit up instead of talking to the professionals.  Your links are non-scientific, if you want to have your ideas considered, use proper source materials.  Use peer reviews studies, links to the vaccines themselves etc. The reason people are being condescending is that you are giving them no reason not to and quite a few reason to do so. 
And the reason you should listen to your doctor is that you don't seem to be able to differentiate between proper source information and made up BS.  Once you have that ability, then you can use your doctors as resource and not just obey.  But you don't seem to be able to do that.   
« Last Edit: February 01, 2015, 01:12:33 PM by Gin1984 »

Glenstache

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #52 on: February 01, 2015, 10:26:08 AM »
Because this hasn't been posted yet: http://howdovaccinescauseautism.com/

I was just about to post this. I chuckle every time I see it.

On a more serious note, this pertains to how effective discussing vaccination with anti-vaxxers is:
http://www.newyorker.com/science/maria-konnikova/i-dont-want-to-be-right
And here's the original citation (took approximately 18 seconds to find, ironically):
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/133/4/e835.short

An earlier poster's comment on being able to differentiate information sources is really the heart of the matter. In general (as the study above reinforces) people make decisions based on their social environment rather than a cold rational reading of facts. It's how people buy cars, choose things in the grocery store, choose their life partners, and a whole pile of other life decisions. Why would we expect people to make decisions about vaccinations any differently?





matchewed

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #53 on: February 01, 2015, 10:38:17 AM »
I would love to see a single peer reviewed study that supported any position held by anti-vaccination people. Educating yourself is fine, choosing what to believe in spite of evidence to the contrary is not. I have a relative who is a doctor. This person is quite educated but is anti-vaccination. It is not just for "ignorant" people. It is something which any person has a capability to believe. We just have to remember that looking at evidence you don't get to choose which evidence matters to you and downplay everything else.

Oddly enough there is no massive conspiracy in regards to ___________ (insert your particular bullshit here, there are tons to choose from).

Glenstache

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #54 on: February 01, 2015, 10:49:24 AM »
Oddly enough there is no massive conspiracy in regards to ___________ (insert your particular bullshit here, there are tons to choose from).

This instantly made me think, "Chemtrails!"

Also, a shout out to Gin1984 for pointing out and reinforcing that treating not-scientific information as science is not required. That may be an editorial decision in some (ok, many) news agencies, but it doesn't pass muster when it comes to the actual conduct of science. In other words, "the plural of anecdote is not data." (edit: had Andrew Wakefield understood and embraced this, he may not have lost his medical license).
« Last Edit: February 01, 2015, 10:51:50 AM by Glenstache »

caliq

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #55 on: February 01, 2015, 11:18:34 AM »
Oddly enough there is no massive conspiracy in regards to ___________ (insert your particular bullshit here, there are tons to choose from).

This instantly made me think, "Chemtrails!"

Also, a shout out to Gin1984 for pointing out and reinforcing that treating not-scientific information as science is not required. That may be an editorial decision in some (ok, many) news agencies, but it doesn't pass muster when it comes to the actual conduct of science. In other words, "the plural of anecdote is not data." (edit: had Andrew Wakefield understood and embraced this, he may not have lost his medical license).

I thought Wakefield deliberately falsified the data because he was being paid by a law firm suing the vaccine companies?

The treatment of anti-scientific claims by the media in the US is incredibly frustrating for me.  I can't stand how they have to "show both sides of the story" when one side is based on data and fact and the other side is essentially a crazy person ranting about an unfounded opinion.  It's incredibly misleading to common people who aren't educated in the specifics about what makes science valid, etc.  I recently spent an afternoon breaking all of this down to my husband, who for some reason had fallen into the idea that climate change might not be caused by humans.  It took me hours but I finally convinced him that just because someone disagrees with the science, it does not mean their opinion is anywhere near as valid as the science or that their disagreement should be treated as rational or normal.  The media doesn't give JFK assassination or 9/11 conspiracy theorists the time of day, why do they continue to treat anti-science conspiracy theorists like they have valid opinions? 

justajane

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #56 on: February 01, 2015, 11:20:08 AM »
Dr. Amy Tuteur is a controversial figure because of her vehemence against the natural birth movement. I happen to agree with her on that issue as well. Regardless, she is spot on in this recent post about why scientific arguments don't work with those who refuse to vaccinate:

http://www.skepticalob.com/2015/01/what-everyone-gets-wrong-about-anti-vaccine-parents.html

This is her argument in a nutshell, regarding the current measles outbreak: "Twenty years ago, if the same child had visited Disneyland, the measles would have stopped with him or her. Everyone else was protected — not because everyone was vaccinated — but because of herd immunity. When a high enough proportion of the population is vaccinated, the disease simply can’t spread because the odds of one unvaccinated person coming in contact with another are very low.

Of course, we told them that. We patiently explained herd immunity, debunked claims of an association between vaccines and autism, demolished accusations of “toxins” in vaccines, but they didn’t listen. Why? Because we thought the problem was that anti-vax parents didn’t understand science. That’s undoubtedly true, but the anti-vax movement is NOT about science and never was.

The anti-vax movement has never been about children, and it hasn’t really been about vaccines. It’s about privileged parents and how they wish to view themselves."

Now that I have some distance from it all, I will admit that my own former skepticism of vaccines and even earlier of hospitalized birth came from a place of uninformed arrogance. I can only describe it in those terms, since why else would I have thought that I knew more than an OB who had delivered thousands of babies and seen what can go wrong and an epidemiologist who has studied how quickly diseases can spread?

No one is saying that we should blindly follow authority all the time. Heck, MMM is about bucking societal trends. But issues of life and death are different, and I'm glad I came to my senses to realize that I can and should trust experts.

Glenstache

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #57 on: February 01, 2015, 11:36:09 AM »

I thought Wakefield deliberately falsified the data because he was being paid by a law firm suing the vaccine companies?


The Wakefield case has been evolving over the years, and each new piece of information seems to make it worse. That he did it on purpose for money may be true, but I haven't followed his specific circumstance closely the last few years. That would be an extra level of awfulness, if true.

caliq

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #58 on: February 01, 2015, 11:39:17 AM »

I thought Wakefield deliberately falsified the data because he was being paid by a law firm suing the vaccine companies?


The Wakefield case has been evolving over the years, and each new piece of information seems to make it worse. That he did it on purpose for money may be true, but I haven't followed his specific circumstance closely the last few years. That would be an extra level of awfulness, if true.

I checked Wikipedia --

Quote
In January 2011, an editorial accompanying an article by Brian Deer in BMJ identified Wakefield's work as an "elaborate fraud". In a follow-up article, Deer said that Wakefield had planned to launch a venture on the back of an MMR vaccination scare that would profit from new medical tests and "litigation driven testing". In November 2011, yet another report in BMJ revealed original raw data indicating that, contrary to Wakefield's claims in The Lancet, children in his research did not have inflammatory bowel disease.

Not quite what I thought it was, but still financially-motivated intentional falsification of data.  He should be in prison.

NumberJohnny5

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #59 on: February 01, 2015, 03:01:46 PM »
Perhaps not vaccinating your kids is indeed crazy.

In my opinion, it's equally crazy to not question it.

Why? Because I question EVERYTHING. You want to inject stuff into a newborn baby? You want to poke my 1-2-3-4-5 year old with needles? Damned straight I want to know what's going on.

For the record, our kids have had their shots. I've received "the look" when I ask what a particular vaccine is, possible side effects, etc. I don't care. They're my kids, and until they can make informed choices for themselves, I'm going to do it for them.

caliq

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #60 on: February 01, 2015, 03:26:08 PM »
Perhaps not vaccinating your kids is indeed crazy.

In my opinion, it's equally crazy to not question it.

Why? Because I question EVERYTHING. You want to inject stuff into a newborn baby? You want to poke my 1-2-3-4-5 year old with needles? Damned straight I want to know what's going on.

For the record, our kids have had their shots. I've received "the look" when I ask what a particular vaccine is, possible side effects, etc. I don't care. They're my kids, and until they can make informed choices for themselves, I'm going to do it for them.

I don't think anyone here is saying you shouldn't inform yourself about the medical care your children are receiving.  It's just that you should actually heed the scientific literature on the subject, not ignore it and say it doesn't count because of some vast big pharma/government conspiracy or something.

NumberJohnny5

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #61 on: February 01, 2015, 03:40:26 PM »
Perhaps not vaccinating your kids is indeed crazy.

In my opinion, it's equally crazy to not question it.

Why? Because I question EVERYTHING. You want to inject stuff into a newborn baby? You want to poke my 1-2-3-4-5 year old with needles? Damned straight I want to know what's going on.

For the record, our kids have had their shots. I've received "the look" when I ask what a particular vaccine is, possible side effects, etc. I don't care. They're my kids, and until they can make informed choices for themselves, I'm going to do it for them.

I don't think anyone here is saying you shouldn't inform yourself about the medical care your children are receiving.  It's just that you should actually heed the scientific literature on the subject, not ignore it and say it doesn't count because of some vast big pharma/government conspiracy or something.

Sometimes there is a conspiracy. Now, where did I put that tinfoil hat? Heh, with RFID chips in everything, lining stuff with tinfoil isn't quite the whacko idea it used to be.

Some (most?) of the times, results of a study are skewed to match what the person funding/heading the study wants it to say. Sometimes results are outright falsified (see, vaccine link to autism). Just saying.

Gin1984

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #62 on: February 01, 2015, 03:44:24 PM »
Perhaps not vaccinating your kids is indeed crazy.

In my opinion, it's equally crazy to not question it.

Why? Because I question EVERYTHING. You want to inject stuff into a newborn baby? You want to poke my 1-2-3-4-5 year old with needles? Damned straight I want to know what's going on.

For the record, our kids have had their shots. I've received "the look" when I ask what a particular vaccine is, possible side effects, etc. I don't care. They're my kids, and until they can make informed choices for themselves, I'm going to do it for them.

I don't think anyone here is saying you shouldn't inform yourself about the medical care your children are receiving.  It's just that you should actually heed the scientific literature on the subject, not ignore it and say it doesn't count because of some vast big pharma/government conspiracy or something.

Sometimes there is a conspiracy. Now, where did I put that tinfoil hat? Heh, with RFID chips in everything, lining stuff with tinfoil isn't quite the whacko idea it used to be.

Some (most?) of the times, results of a study are skewed to match what the person funding/heading the study wants it to say. Sometimes results are outright falsified (see, vaccine link to autism). Just saying.
Interestingly there have been studies to show that industry funded studies are positive towards the industry's benefit however, that is not as often true when the funding comes from non-profits or governmental sources.  Which does indicate that we should increase scientific funding from the government. 
« Last Edit: February 01, 2015, 04:27:03 PM by Gin1984 »

gaja

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #63 on: February 01, 2015, 04:14:47 PM »
I normally trust the judgment of people who know more about a subject than me (although I will always try to get as much information as possible). But when the authorities cancelled TB vaccines in Norway, I argued until my two babies got them anyway. Apparently, the TB virus has evolved, and the old vaccines are not as efficient as earlier, but if there is even a small chance that my kids can avoid multiresistent TB, I want them to have it.

We also got the measles vaccine earlier than scheduled, because we were going to visit friends who believe that children need to suffer through the deseases to get stronger. Their community is full of unvaccinated kids. This meant an extra shot for my baby, since the measels shot is not as efficient if you get it while you're drinking (a vaccinated) mother's milk.

The treatment of anti-scientific claims by the media in the US is incredibly frustrating for me.  I can't stand how they have to "show both sides of the story" when one side is based on data and fact and the other side is essentially a crazy person ranting about an unfounded opinion.  It's incredibly misleading to common people who aren't educated in the specifics about what makes science valid, etc.  I recently spent an afternoon breaking all of this down to my husband, who for some reason had fallen into the idea that climate change might not be caused by humans.  It took me hours but I finally convinced him that just because someone disagrees with the science, it does not mean their opinion is anywhere near as valid as the science or that their disagreement should be treated as rational or normal.  The media doesn't give JFK assassination or 9/11 conspiracy theorists the time of day, why do they continue to treat anti-science conspiracy theorists like they have valid opinions?

I truly and utterly love this debate hosted by John Oliver, that demonstrates what a representative climate change debate looks like. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjuGCJJUGsg


caliq

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #64 on: February 01, 2015, 04:43:18 PM »
I normally trust the judgment of people who know more about a subject than me (although I will always try to get as much information as possible). But when the authorities cancelled TB vaccines in Norway, I argued until my two babies got them anyway. Apparently, the TB virus has evolved, and the old vaccines are not as efficient as earlier, but if there is even a small chance that my kids can avoid multiresistent TB, I want them to have it.

We also got the measles vaccine earlier than scheduled, because we were going to visit friends who believe that children need to suffer through the deseases to get stronger. Their community is full of unvaccinated kids. This meant an extra shot for my baby, since the measels shot is not as efficient if you get it while you're drinking (a vaccinated) mother's milk.

The treatment of anti-scientific claims by the media in the US is incredibly frustrating for me.  I can't stand how they have to "show both sides of the story" when one side is based on data and fact and the other side is essentially a crazy person ranting about an unfounded opinion.  It's incredibly misleading to common people who aren't educated in the specifics about what makes science valid, etc.  I recently spent an afternoon breaking all of this down to my husband, who for some reason had fallen into the idea that climate change might not be caused by humans.  It took me hours but I finally convinced him that just because someone disagrees with the science, it does not mean their opinion is anywhere near as valid as the science or that their disagreement should be treated as rational or normal.  The media doesn't give JFK assassination or 9/11 conspiracy theorists the time of day, why do they continue to treat anti-science conspiracy theorists like they have valid opinions?

I truly and utterly love this debate hosted by John Oliver, that demonstrates what a representative climate change debate looks like. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjuGCJJUGsg

Haha, I love John Oliver! Thanks for linking this, I don't think I'd seen or if I had it was a really long time ago.  Guess I truly converted DH, cause he thought it was hilarious too :D

Ambergris

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #65 on: February 01, 2015, 05:29:33 PM »
What do you guys make of it?  Are these the same people who do not believe in evolution or climate change?  Is this a religious thing?  I just don't get it.

My not-at-all over-simplified and completely fair and balanced way of thinking about it is as follows. There's the crazy anti-science right-ies and the crazy anti science left-ies.

The crazy anti-science righties think that God has clearly told them in the Bible that there was a talking snake in a garden 6000 years ago, followed by all the animals in a wooden boat, and hence the scientists are all in an evil conspiracy with Big Liberal Government to lie to them. Oh, and Jesus wants his children to all drive SUVs and hence climate change scientists are in an evil.....blah blah.

The crazy anti-science lefties think that if only we could all be Natural and Paleo and Good we would all go back to a time when we had no death in childbirth or evil diseases and if only we would listen to the Wisdom of our Bodies and avoid having Chemicals in things we would all be Holistically Healthy and hence the scientists are all in an evil conspiracy with Big Ayn Rand Pharma to lie...blah blah blah.

They're all morons.

The consequence is sick children, goddam ignorance and irreversible climate change. It's the same shit, different packages.

Science FTW.

okonumiyaki

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #66 on: February 01, 2015, 05:41:25 PM »
There is actually a chiropractor in my area that counsels his patient no to have their children immunized.  Sad but true.

Not thyat surprising, as chiropractry is snake oil anyway.  Sure, it has some benefits, but then call it physiotherapy. 

Ambergris

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #67 on: February 01, 2015, 06:39:00 PM »
Sometimes there is a conspiracy. Now, where did I put that tinfoil hat? Heh, with RFID chips in everything, lining stuff with tinfoil isn't quite the whacko idea it used to be.

Some (most?) of the times, results of a study are skewed to match what the person funding/heading the study wants it to say. Sometimes results are outright falsified (see, vaccine link to autism). Just saying.

This is why you must listen to what the scientific community says about something, not what an individual scientist (or even team of scientists) says about something. The best information on any subject human beings currently have emerges as a consensus from a debate and via the evaluation of a massive community of tens of thousands of highly and appropriately educated people. This evaluation comes in multiple forms, including peer review, internal debate, replication of results and so on.

Good sources of the consensus view on issues are the major national and international scientific societies.

justajane

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #68 on: February 01, 2015, 08:05:45 PM »
There are quite a few people here with opinions on doing their own research, and choosing which ones to get.

Please don't.

Edit: For brevity.

Sorry, but I disagree. My kids are fully vaccinated, but I have two families on my block who selectively vaccinate. I know this, because we've had discussions about it. None of this is academic for me. I have an 8 month old baby who is not vaccinated for the measles because that doesn't happen until 12 months. I am very concerned by the current outbreak and the potential for him to be exposed and that he isn't really even safe on our block. While I would love to just wring my neighbors' necks,  a more productive approach is to focus on getting them to at least get the vaccines that are currently pose a significant public health risk - and that would be the MMR and the DTaP. The others are important too, but when it comes to the safety of my child and others like him (including the immunosuppressed) those two are the most important at the present time. So yeah, I'm going to have the discussion and share my opinion about which ones they really should get, because it directly matters to the health of my family.

Gin1984

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #69 on: February 01, 2015, 08:13:12 PM »
There are quite a few people here with opinions on doing their own research, and choosing which ones to get.

Please don't.

Edit: For brevity.

Sorry, but I disagree. My kids are fully vaccinated, but I have two families on my block who selectively vaccinate. I know this, because we've had discussions about it. None of this is academic for me. I have an 8 month old baby who is not vaccinated for the measles because that doesn't happen until 12 months. I am very concerned by the current outbreak and the potential for him to be exposed and that he isn't really even safe on our block. While I would love to just wring my neighbors' necks,  a more productive approach is to focus on getting them to at least get the vaccines that are currently pose a significant public health risk - and that would be the MMR and the DTaP. The others are important too, but when it comes to the safety of my child and others like him (including the immunosuppressed) those two are the most important at the present time. So yeah, I'm going to have the discussion and share my opinion about which ones they really should get, because it directly matters to the health of my family.
Uh, he agrees with you.  He talking about the people who pick and choose which vaccines to get and/or gets them on a delayed schedule.

caliq

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #70 on: February 01, 2015, 08:47:40 PM »
This video is heartbreaking:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/30/health/arizona-measles-vaccination-debate/index.html

And the doctor in the video is an absolute asshat. 

Icecreamarsenal

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #71 on: February 01, 2015, 09:12:05 PM »
My mentor eradicated smallpox, and relied on herd immunity to do it. I have problems with 'naturalnews.com' and 'iactuallyscoredhigheronexamsthanthepeopleiknewfromhighschoolthatwentontobecomedoctorsbutididntwanttogothroughallthatschool.com' being considered legitimate sources.
I was hoping dividendman would reply to this thread. There was an assumption on his part of the existence of peanut oil in vaccines, and that that existence may be causally correlated with the increasing incidence or prevalence of peanut allergies?
Then some enlightened individuals gently informed him that there is no peanut oil in vaccines.
Wonder if it's a lesson learned or he's off to find references from the likeminded soft science churners. Just under informed enough to be truly dangerous. Like a first year financial advisor.

MoneyCat

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #72 on: February 01, 2015, 09:25:28 PM »
The only real reason that someone wouldn't vaccinate their child is because they don't love their child.  A parent who loves their child would want to prevent them from contracting easily preventable illnesses.  And a parent who loves their child would research things thoroughly to make sure they were doing what was best for their child.

Knapptyme

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #73 on: February 01, 2015, 09:47:31 PM »
In an otherwise relatively healthy environment, peanut allergies are more deadly. So I agree with investigating the latter half of widespread morbidity and mortality in regards to that. I understand there are exceptions and not to make the case from them. I would argue it's at least faulty logic not to question the correlation.

Again, for those following along, we delayed most immunizations to see what affects they would have on our child, if any. We also plowed ahead with what were recommended as the most vital. (See info about Dr. Sears' methods mentioned earlier. I am aware that there are pros and mostly cons to his suggested delayed schedule without backing from research.)



You do realize that this "otherwise relatively healthy environment" that your children experience is largely because of the vaccines that you now question?

Having said that, Dr. Sears schedule is not benign but it is not as dangerous as others. The Sears schedule has children still start the vaccines at 2 months. Others push the start of vaccines to 2 years, which IMO is unconscionable, since the youngest are often the most vulnerable to the most harmful effects of the diseases. Because you cite Sears and appear to be a reasonable (albeit rather misinformed on the peanut thing) person, I would encourage you to not spend time defending the rest of the anti-vaxx crowd. Don't put yourself in their shoes and try to relate to their concerns. Frankly there's a whole lotta of crazy that you don't want to be lumped in to with that crowd.

I didn't even need to read your sources to know that they are not going to convince the discerning crowd here. They  have to be from reputable peer reviewed journals.

And no, people here are not a judgmental "pack of wolves" as you so put it. This isn't an abstract discussion in which everyone can have their opinion and then we can say "different strokes for different folks." This isn't about budgetary choices and whether or not someone deserves a facepunch or not. When these diseases don't kill or irrevocably change children, they make them suffer terribly and needlessly.

Let me say I have enjoyed looking up more information. The peanut oil thing is tricky. Thanks for pointing to a list of ingredients that is easily accessible but still lacks transparency as, albeit some of the crazies talking, some ingredients do not have to be listed. Plus, they are modifying vaccinations as they (Big Pharma or whoever) gather more information or pay out too much in lawsuits filed.

http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/statisticsreports.html

I much prefer to side with the following line of reasoning.

Perhaps not vaccinating your kids is indeed crazy.

In my opinion, it's equally crazy to not question it.

Why? Because I question EVERYTHING. You want to inject stuff into a newborn baby? You want to poke my 1-2-3-4-5 year old with needles? Damned straight I want to know what's going on.

For the record, our kids have had their shots. I've received "the look" when I ask what a particular vaccine is, possible side effects, etc. I don't care. They're my kids, and until they can make informed choices for themselves, I'm going to do it for them.

My original post about non-vaxxers avoiding this thread holds true. Maybe not a "pack of wolves" but there is very little room for discussion here. Consider my moderate position to be an attempt at a less hostile perception of the frowned-upon choices of the few.

In regards to the HPV vaccine, the numbers need to be clarified. What is the real number of predicted deaths by those cancers that were avoided compared to the number of deaths caused by side effects? Even Europe went through or is still going through a legislative battle with it. I couldn't find what many would accept as a reputable source quickly to back up my suspicions, but I'm going to keep asking those questions.

I can agree that this is not really a thread where you get to choose what's right for you or your children. I can appreciate those who decided to communicate in a more relaxed tone instead of asserting scientific supremacy as if science is always right. (See phlogiston, flat-earth, geocentric, etc as examples of suspect science that was accepted as truth.)

Lastly, before I exit this thread due to potential sleep lost, I must reiterate a point which is common with most non-vaxxers that I know. Since it is common practice to do some shady medical things with regards to babies (planned c-sections for doctor/mother's convenience, circumcision for who knows what reason these days, and forced inoculation for STD's), the extreme reaction is a lot of mistrust. Please recognize that it is likely the few bad doctors that ruin it for the lot of them in this department. If those in this thread still reading keep pounding their fists on the table with science while giving no concessions to the harm vaccinations have caused (regardless of the good), there will continue to be a gap of understanding. And, that gap will widen with continued indignance.

deborah

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #74 on: February 01, 2015, 10:04:06 PM »
Allergies are something that is not usually picked up in one one-time prick. There is so much exposure to peanut in all our foods these days, that the rising tide of peanut allergy is partly due to that, and partly due to people thinking that they have an allergy without being tested (my brother won't eat gluten - never been tested, and probably just joining the fad).

HPV: Genital HPV is a very common sexually transmitted infection which usually causes no symptoms and goes away by itself, but can sometimes cause serious illness. HPV is responsible for:

    almost all cases of genital warts and cervical cancer
    90% of anal cancers
    65% of vaginal cancers
    50% of vulva cancers
    35% of penile cancers
    60% of oropharyngeal cancers (cancers of the back of the throat, including the base of the tongue and tonsils).

Four out of five people have at least one type of HPV at some time in their lives. It is sometimes called the 'common cold' of sexual activity. HPV infects both men and women. The virus is spread through intimate contact with genital-skin during sexual activity, via tiny breaks in the skin. Usually this happens without anyone ever knowing it or it causing any problems. 

These forms of cancer are some of the cancers that have been most likely to cause death. The US cancer mortality figures are here  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cancer_mortality_rates_in_the_United_States - and you can see that there is a significant likelihood of death if you contact any of these cancers. The HPV vaccine has already substantially reduced the numbers of people dieing of these cancers.

okonumiyaki

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #75 on: February 01, 2015, 11:11:21 PM »


but there is very little room for discussion here.


Correct.  While you may like to view your position as moderate, your position is harmful, not just to your children but to society as a whole.

Doesn't mean you are stupid, I hasten to add.  Just ill-informed.  Heck, I am sure the Taliban aren't stupid either, but their anti-vax campaign in Pakistan is bringing back polio when it looked (like smallpox) that it was a disease that might be eradicated.



dividendman

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #76 on: February 01, 2015, 11:11:59 PM »
re: HPV

Do you know what's crazy? They don't even test guys for it in STD screens. I was getting into a serious relationship so me and my girlfriend at the time both got the STD panel to make sure we were OK and it comes back clean for everything e.g. HIV, Gonorrhea, Syphilis, etc. Then I asked the doctor - what about HPV? Answer: We don't test males for that.

wtf!

deborah

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #77 on: February 01, 2015, 11:27:30 PM »
They vaccinate males for it now in Australia, after research showed it was causing male cancers as well as female ones. Until then, people assumed there was a little benefit for males.

Not all vaccines are "mandatory" - only the ones that have so much benefit that the government can justify supplying it for free.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 02:44:15 AM by deborah »

sheepstache

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #78 on: February 01, 2015, 11:28:48 PM »
re: HPV

Do you know what's crazy? They don't even test guys for it in STD screens. I was getting into a serious relationship so me and my girlfriend at the time both got the STD panel to make sure we were OK and it comes back clean for everything e.g. HIV, Gonorrhea, Syphilis, etc. Then I asked the doctor - what about HPV? Answer: We don't test males for that.

wtf!

Google tells me there is no test for HPV for men that would be useful in a clinical setting. While tests can be done in research studies, for practical purposes, taking a sample is more difficult with men than women, it's not clear which part of the genitals the sample should be taken from, and the test's result would not give helpful information about whether they are contagious or whether there will be any future effects on their health.

dividendman

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #79 on: February 01, 2015, 11:32:50 PM »
Google tells me there is no test for HPV for men that would be useful in a clinical setting. While tests can be done in research studies, for practical purposes, taking a sample is more difficult with men than women, it's not clear which part of the genitals the sample should be taken from, and the test's result would not give helpful information about whether they are contagious or whether there will be any future effects on their health.

Yeah, the doctor mentioned something about it's really hard to test for or something if I'm recalling correctly, I still thought it was crazy. I want ALL vaccines! I guess I'm the opposite of the anti-vacciners. :P

former player

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #80 on: February 02, 2015, 02:14:40 AM »
forced inoculation for STD's

Can you be certain that in the whole of their lives your child will only have sex (I'm including handjobs and oral sex in that) with a virgin and that the couple will be faithful to each other for life?  Because otherwise, inoculating for HPV is a no-brainer.  Why on earth wouldn't you want to vaccinate your child against cancer?

okonumiyaki

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #81 on: February 02, 2015, 02:57:51 AM »
forced inoculation for STD's

Can you be certain that in the whole of their lives your child will only have sex (I'm including handjobs and oral sex in that) with a virgin and that the couple will be faithful to each other for life?  Because otherwise, inoculating for HPV is a no-brainer.  Why on earth wouldn't you want to vaccinate your child against cancer?

Maybe their kids have been properly taught to never share needles & always insist on barrier protection? 

(My first serious girlfriend was so worried about getting pregnant that she would insist on condoms for our petting sessions, penetrative sex was way out the question)

Astatine

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #82 on: February 02, 2015, 03:15:13 AM »


but there is very little room for discussion here.


Correct.  While you may like to view your position as moderate, your position is harmful, not just to your children but to society as a whole.

Yep. If someone decides to feed their kids, say, a raw vegan diet, or a vegetarian diet, or a paleo diet or whatever, that decision only impacts that family and nobody else. Deciding to not vaccinate affects everyone. I'm in a high risk category for illness (ie I'm at a much higher risk of death even from a gastric illness than the average healthy adult).

Herd immunity matters to me. I don't want to be at risk of dying because enough people decided that the scientific and medical communities are wrong. And that goes for my friends, local community, country and the world.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 03:18:53 AM by Astatine »

deborah

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #83 on: February 02, 2015, 03:52:46 AM »
forced inoculation for STD's

Can you be certain that in the whole of their lives your child will only have sex (I'm including handjobs and oral sex in that) with a virgin and that the couple will be faithful to each other for life?  Because otherwise, inoculating for HPV is a no-brainer.  Why on earth wouldn't you want to vaccinate your child against cancer?

Maybe their kids have been properly taught to never share needles & always insist on barrier protection? 

(My first serious girlfriend was so worried about getting pregnant that she would insist on condoms for our petting sessions, penetrative sex was way out the question)
Condoms and other forms of barrier protection do provide some protection from HPV, but you can't count on it.

justajane

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #84 on: February 02, 2015, 05:07:44 AM »
There are quite a few people here with opinions on doing their own research, and choosing which ones to get.

Please don't.

Edit: For brevity.

Sorry, but I disagree. My kids are fully vaccinated, but I have two families on my block who selectively vaccinate. I know this, because we've had discussions about it. None of this is academic for me. I have an 8 month old baby who is not vaccinated for the measles because that doesn't happen until 12 months. I am very concerned by the current outbreak and the potential for him to be exposed and that he isn't really even safe on our block. While I would love to just wring my neighbors' necks,  a more productive approach is to focus on getting them to at least get the vaccines that are currently pose a significant public health risk - and that would be the MMR and the DTaP. The others are important too, but when it comes to the safety of my child and others like him (including the immunosuppressed) those two are the most important at the present time. So yeah, I'm going to have the discussion and share my opinion about which ones they really should get, because it directly matters to the health of my family.
Uh, he agrees with you.  He talking about the people who pick and choose which vaccines to get and/or gets them on a delayed schedule.

You may be right, but the grammar was unclear to me. It sounded to me like he/she objected to even having a discussion about prioritizing vaccines. Since I was one of the ones discussing this, I took this to mean that I or others would be enabling the cray-cray (and the language of gimp's post was far more strong and aggressive but was edited by the moderator). This is actually a common stream of thought. Read the comments to a Slate article any day of the week, and people will take an extremely hard line on this and say that pediatricians and the general public should not under any circumstances even try to compromise on it to possibly increase vaccination rates. Pediatricians who allow delayed vaccine schedules are often highly criticized and blamed for what's currently happening, but I think in many respects this is a "perfect is the enemy of the good" scenario.

I may have misunderstood, but the emotions run so high on this issue that often even pro-vaccine people get criticized for dialoging, as if that somehow validates the opposition.

matchewed

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #85 on: February 02, 2015, 05:23:06 AM »
Lastly, before I exit this thread due to potential sleep lost, I must reiterate a point which is common with most non-vaxxers that I know. Since it is common practice to do some shady medical things with regards to babies (planned c-sections for doctor/mother's convenience, circumcision for who knows what reason these days, and forced inoculation for STD's), the extreme reaction is a lot of mistrust. Please recognize that it is likely the few bad doctors that ruin it for the lot of them in this department. If those in this thread still reading keep pounding their fists on the table with science while giving no concessions to the harm vaccinations have caused (regardless of the good), there will continue to be a gap of understanding. And, that gap will widen with continued indignance.

I have to call out this particular paragraph. An appeal to acknowledging the harm with no regards to the anti-vaxx actually acknowledging the benefits and in fact inventing new harms to throw at the situation in spite of evidence either to the contrary is just an appeal to ignorance. You want people who are following science based evidence to acknowledge ignorant fantasy land. Vaccines can cause harm. No "concession" is needed. It is just basic facts that anything has side effects. When you want this acknowledgment you're begging for validity. Let actual data prove whether your point is valid. How about the actual data that shows that serious side effects are one per thousands to one per millions of doses for vaccines. We're not pounding the table with science so much as anti-vaxx are pounding the table with ignorance.

LalsConstant

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #86 on: February 02, 2015, 06:27:59 AM »
"So you're telling me one quick stab with this needle and I am permanently immune to a horrible disease?  Basically you are giving me a superpower?"

"Well there is this tiny chance similar to your odds of being struck by lightning or killed by a drunk driver that you'll have a problem but yeah."

"Sign me up!"

sheepstache

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #87 on: February 02, 2015, 07:23:40 AM »
forced inoculation for STD's

Can you be certain that in the whole of their lives your child will only have sex (I'm including handjobs and oral sex in that) with a virgin and that the couple will be faithful to each other for life?  Because otherwise, inoculating for HPV is a no-brainer.  Why on earth wouldn't you want to vaccinate your child against cancer?

Maybe their kids have been properly taught to never share needles & always insist on barrier protection? 

(My first serious girlfriend was so worried about getting pregnant that she would insist on condoms for our petting sessions, penetrative sex was way out the question)
Condoms and other forms of barrier protection do provide some protection from HPV, but you can't count on it.

Truth. My SO had HPV from protected sex. There are areas that aren't covered by a condom. He had been diagnosed over a year ago and was told that if he didn't have a recurrence in the next year, his body had probably cleared the virus from his system. Probably. As discussed above, there's no test for men. And no treatment to cure it. Sometimes the symptoms are so minor they could pass it on without realizing.

I ended up getting the vaccine to be safe. I had to push a bit and get it off-label because I was a year older than the oldest age they were recommending it for. As far as I could tell the age recommendation was because 1. they were assuming most women over that age had already had a high probability of exposure (not true in my case because I'm so boring) and 2. that was simply the age range of the subjects they did the initial test on so as far as the FDA was concerned they couldn't say it was effective for anyone beyond that.

edit: According to my state's health department, "HPV cannot be cured; therefore, the infected person is essentially contagious for life."  So, unless the guy you're having sex with is a virgin, you might as well get the vaccine.

Lastly, before I exit this thread due to potential sleep lost, I must reiterate a point which is common with most non-vaxxers that I know. Since it is common practice to do some shady medical things with regards to babies (planned c-sections for doctor/mother's convenience, circumcision for who knows what reason these days, and forced inoculation for STD's), the extreme reaction is a lot of mistrust. Please recognize that it is likely the few bad doctors that ruin it for the lot of them in this department. If those in this thread still reading keep pounding their fists on the table with science while giving no concessions to the harm vaccinations have caused (regardless of the good), there will continue to be a gap of understanding. And, that gap will widen with continued indignance.

I have to call out this particular paragraph. An appeal to acknowledging the harm with no regards to the anti-vaxx actually acknowledging the benefits and in fact inventing new harms to throw at the situation in spite of evidence either to the contrary is just an appeal to ignorance. You want people who are following science based evidence to acknowledge ignorant fantasy land. Vaccines can cause harm. No "concession" is needed. It is just basic facts that anything has side effects. When you want this acknowledgment you're begging for validity. Let actual data prove whether your point is valid. How about the actual data that shows that serious side effects are one per thousands to one per millions of doses for vaccines. We're not pounding the table with science so much as anti-vaxx are pounding the table with ignorance.

When anti-vaxxers talk about how vaccinations are bad it makes me mistrust all anti-vaxxers. It's really the bad anti-vaxxers using illogical arguments who ruin it for the rest of them.

Oh wait, that's all of them.

justajane

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #88 on: February 02, 2015, 07:30:44 AM »
Lastly, before I exit this thread due to potential sleep lost, I must reiterate a point which is common with most non-vaxxers that I know. Since it is common practice to do some shady medical things with regards to babies (planned c-sections for doctor/mother's convenience, circumcision for who knows what reason these days, and forced inoculation for STD's), the extreme reaction is a lot of mistrust.

This is off topic somewhat but clearly informs your and others' perceptions of vaccines and that is your inherent distrust of doctors. When I was pregnant with my third this past spring, I went down the rabbit hole of researching c-sections in this country and came to the understanding that the notion that elective c-sections are rampant is largely perpetrated by the same heresay information mill as the anti-vaccine movement. Just as most vaccines don't contain mercury or peanut oil or the devil's essence (even though natural websites still say they do), very few OBs are scheduling their patients' births around their tee time.

It's hard to find exact statistics on this that are not from biased websites, but most c-sections are medically indicated in at least some sense. And no, a second or third c-section is not considered elective. My OB (considered one of the best in a large Midwestern city) specializes in VBACs, but there are valid concerns with trying and I don't think it's fair to force women into it or to make them feel as if they are choosing a c-section out of convenience.

I could go on, but at the end of the day, most c-sections are done not out of convenience but due to a general concern for the welfare of mothers and babies. Malpractice plays into it too. And naturally minded parents are not immune to suing either, as evidenced by the Oregon mom whose hospital water birth went awry and is now asking for an ungodly amount of money for her suffering. I'm not saying that the number shouldn't go down somewhat, but there is no conspiracy here, and OBs are not surgeons who like to cut open women for the heck of it.

But I can't disagree on the circumcision thing, although it's not "shady" doctors fueling it but the longstanding pressure of tradition, looking like daddy, and the childish perception that "ewww, uncircumcised penises are gross."

Cpa Cat

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #89 on: February 02, 2015, 07:45:06 AM »
I'm getting the feeling that the only real reason for not getting kids vaccinated for HPV is because STDs are actually well-deserved punishment for wanton premarital sex. Good girls and boys don't need to be vaccinated against HPV because marriage protects them from STDs.

Gin1984

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #90 on: February 02, 2015, 07:47:38 AM »
Lastly, before I exit this thread due to potential sleep lost, I must reiterate a point which is common with most non-vaxxers that I know. Since it is common practice to do some shady medical things with regards to babies (planned c-sections for doctor/mother's convenience, circumcision for who knows what reason these days, and forced inoculation for STD's), the extreme reaction is a lot of mistrust.

This is off topic somewhat but clearly informs your and others' perceptions of vaccines and that is your inherent distrust of doctors. When I was pregnant with my third this past spring, I went down the rabbit hole of researching c-sections in this country and came to the understanding that the notion that elective c-sections are rampant is largely perpetrated by the same heresay information mill as the anti-vaccine movement. Just as most vaccines don't contain mercury or peanut oil or the devil's essence (even though natural websites still say they do), very few OBs are scheduling their patients' births around their tee time.

It's hard to find exact statistics on this that are not from biased websites, but most c-sections are medically indicated in at least some sense. And no, a second or third c-section is not considered elective. My OB (considered one of the best in a large Midwestern city) specializes in VBACs, but there are valid concerns with trying and I don't think it's fair to force women into it or to make them feel as if they are choosing a c-section out of convenience.

I could go on, but at the end of the day, most c-sections are done not out of convenience but due to a general concern for the welfare of mothers and babies. Malpractice plays into it too. And naturally minded parents are not immune to suing either, as evidenced by the Oregon mom whose hospital water birth went awry and is now asking for an ungodly amount of money for her suffering. I'm not saying that the number shouldn't go down somewhat, but there is no conspiracy here, and OBs are not surgeons who like to cut open women for the heck of it.

But I can't disagree on the circumcision thing, although it's not "shady" doctors fueling it but the longstanding pressure of tradition, looking like daddy, and the childish perception that "ewww, uncircumcised penises are gross."
As a woman who gave birth not so long ago, I feel I might want to weigh in on this.  I was no more pushed by my OB than any other time I went to a doctor.  Given I actually was educated, the decisions were made by me.  I was clear to my OB what was ok to me and what was not.  If she had been unwilling to accommodate my requirements, well then easy enough, find a new OB.  But, my lines were reasonable and basically my birth went according to my and my daughter's needs.  Nothing my OB did was without my informed consent.  And frankly that is how it should be, but because people don't educate themselves MDs go about making the decisions.  You would not ask a twelve year old to make medical decision, but when the majority of population has that level of science knowledge, what do you expect from the MD?  Instead of whining that the MDs do things you disagree with, go take a college level science class, then take another one, then learn to read peer reviewed science journals and how to determine the validity of the research, then you have the knowledge to make decisions.  Until then, either accept being treated like a child or do something about it, and that something does not include whining like my two year old.  People posting these things are supposedly adults, how about you act like one?
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 09:24:03 AM by Gin1984 »

rocksinmyhead

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #91 on: February 02, 2015, 07:59:27 AM »
I had the Flu with a capital "F" in the early 2000s. I was an otherwise healthy early twenties woman who was sidelined for a month. I developed severe bronchitis and eventually bruised a rib from all the violent coughing. I've gotten the flu shot ever since and never gotten the flu again......until this year when my whole family of five got the dreaded Influenza A. But the medical establishment has been entirely transparent about how the flu "drifted" and wasn't covered by the vaccine. I'll take a decade of not getting it. Plus the flu wasn't nearly as bad for me this time around, which I imagine I can credit to having gotten the flu shot.

They offered the flu shot for free during work hours at our office this year. A coworker said to me, "I'm not going to get it. I read that it's only 25% effective." Who cares? If you're lying in bed, sick with the flu and someone comes up to you with a needle and says, "There's a 25% chance that this shot will immediately make you better, a 50% chance that it will help you recover more quickly, but a 25% chance that it will have absolutely no effect." Who would say no to that?? And yet that is what people are saying no to when they refuse the flu shot.

Now, I'll admit that I don't actively seek out the flu shot (and I have had the flu before). But when I'm sitting there and it's on offer with a cost of 60 seconds of my time, why would I not take it?

Yeah I'm the same way... sad to admit I used to never get the flu shot, mostly due to being cheap/lazy, despite having had the flu before... but now I get it at work for free, so why would I not?!?

I also think that some people don't get (Knapptyme appears not to) that even if YOU are a healthy person who can easily survive the flu, you may spread it to someone who is elderly, immunocompromised, etc.
http://www.niaid.nih.gov/topics/Pages/communityImmunity.aspx
http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/52/7/911.full

sheepstache

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #92 on: February 02, 2015, 08:17:11 AM »
I had the Flu with a capital "F" in the early 2000s. I was an otherwise healthy early twenties woman who was sidelined for a month. I developed severe bronchitis and eventually bruised a rib from all the violent coughing. I've gotten the flu shot ever since and never gotten the flu again......until this year when my whole family of five got the dreaded Influenza A. But the medical establishment has been entirely transparent about how the flu "drifted" and wasn't covered by the vaccine. I'll take a decade of not getting it. Plus the flu wasn't nearly as bad for me this time around, which I imagine I can credit to having gotten the flu shot.

They offered the flu shot for free during work hours at our office this year. A coworker said to me, "I'm not going to get it. I read that it's only 25% effective." Who cares? If you're lying in bed, sick with the flu and someone comes up to you with a needle and says, "There's a 25% chance that this shot will immediately make you better, a 50% chance that it will help you recover more quickly, but a 25% chance that it will have absolutely no effect." Who would say no to that?? And yet that is what people are saying no to when they refuse the flu shot.

Now, I'll admit that I don't actively seek out the flu shot (and I have had the flu before). But when I'm sitting there and it's on offer with a cost of 60 seconds of my time, why would I not take it?

Yeah I'm the same way... sad to admit I used to never get the flu shot, mostly due to being cheap/lazy, despite having had the flu before... but now I get it at work for free, so why would I not?!?

I also think that some people don't get (Knapptyme appears not to) that even if YOU are a healthy person who can easily survive the flu, you may spread it to someone who is elderly, immunocompromised, etc.
http://www.niaid.nih.gov/topics/Pages/communityImmunity.aspx
http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/52/7/911.full

Also, I thought some of the danger of the flu was particularly healthy young adults. I mean, that was the case with the Spanish flu. So many healthy people died precisely because they were healthy. It wasn't the flu that killed them but their body's immune reaction in fighting it off. 

I couldn't find it with a quick search but I swear a couple years ago, maybe because there was a shortage, I, in my thirties, wasn't in the age group they were recommending it for, but my co-workers just a couple years behind me in their twenties were. Maybe I'm placing too much importance on this idea that being older made me tougher :)

justajane

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #93 on: February 02, 2015, 08:52:14 AM »
Also, I thought some of the danger of the flu was particularly healthy young adults. I mean, that was the case with the Spanish flu. So many healthy people died precisely because they were healthy. It wasn't the flu that killed them but their body's immune reaction in fighting it off. 

I couldn't find it with a quick search but I swear a couple years ago, maybe because there was a shortage, I, in my thirties, wasn't in the age group they were recommending it for, but my co-workers just a couple years behind me in their twenties were. Maybe I'm placing too much importance on this idea that being older made me tougher :)

Yes, indeed. You never know what influenza strain is going to circulate each year, and H1N1 is the one that tends to adversely affect younger adults. It was responsible for the 1918 and 2009 pandemic.

And no, the flu shot cannot give you the flu. It is made with an inactive virus. I get so tired of even educated people saying that they got the shot and then were sick for weeks afterwards. Correlation does not equal causation. 

Gin1984

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #94 on: February 02, 2015, 08:58:05 AM »
I had the Flu with a capital "F" in the early 2000s. I was an otherwise healthy early twenties woman who was sidelined for a month. I developed severe bronchitis and eventually bruised a rib from all the violent coughing. I've gotten the flu shot ever since and never gotten the flu again......until this year when my whole family of five got the dreaded Influenza A. But the medical establishment has been entirely transparent about how the flu "drifted" and wasn't covered by the vaccine. I'll take a decade of not getting it. Plus the flu wasn't nearly as bad for me this time around, which I imagine I can credit to having gotten the flu shot.

They offered the flu shot for free during work hours at our office this year. A coworker said to me, "I'm not going to get it. I read that it's only 25% effective." Who cares? If you're lying in bed, sick with the flu and someone comes up to you with a needle and says, "There's a 25% chance that this shot will immediately make you better, a 50% chance that it will help you recover more quickly, but a 25% chance that it will have absolutely no effect." Who would say no to that?? And yet that is what people are saying no to when they refuse the flu shot.

Now, I'll admit that I don't actively seek out the flu shot (and I have had the flu before). But when I'm sitting there and it's on offer with a cost of 60 seconds of my time, why would I not take it?

Yeah I'm the same way... sad to admit I used to never get the flu shot, mostly due to being cheap/lazy, despite having had the flu before... but now I get it at work for free, so why would I not?!?

I also think that some people don't get (Knapptyme appears not to) that even if YOU are a healthy person who can easily survive the flu, you may spread it to someone who is elderly, immunocompromised, etc.
http://www.niaid.nih.gov/topics/Pages/communityImmunity.aspx
http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/52/7/911.full

Also, I thought some of the danger of the flu was particularly healthy young adults. I mean, that was the case with the Spanish flu. So many healthy people died precisely because they were healthy. It wasn't the flu that killed them but their body's immune reaction in fighting it off. 

I couldn't find it with a quick search but I swear a couple years ago, maybe because there was a shortage, I, in my thirties, wasn't in the age group they were recommending it for, but my co-workers just a couple years behind me in their twenties were. Maybe I'm placing too much importance on this idea that being older made me tougher :)
Actually it is not known why the Spanish flu killed so many health people, there are hypothesis but since it happen in the early 1900 they were not tested.  The CDC did fund a huge amount of research on this though and it is very interesting. 
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 09:23:38 AM by Gin1984 »

wild wendella

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #95 on: February 02, 2015, 09:34:45 AM »
Hello.  I haven't read all the replies, nor will I.  This is a real hot-button issue.  I'll just try to describe my situation, in case it helps lend another perspective. 

I had my son two years ago at the age of 41.  I have multiple chemical sensitivity (which is just a way of saying my body has toxic overload) which I tried to address before he was born.  I had all of my mercury fillings removed.  I stopped using deodorant with aluminum.  I replaced teflon pots.  I stopped eating canned food.  I only eat organic, free range, wild, etc food.  Many, many other changes to help me detox.  I doubt these changes did much good, but every little bit helps.  I didn't drink coffee while pregnant or trying to conceive.  I exercised.  I took no OTC drugs.  But I knew my son would be born at a toxic disadvantage compared to a baby born to the average healthy 25 year old.

I wanted to spread out the vaccines, but our pediatrician wasn't very accommodating.  He agreed to postpone the Hep B at birth, but the hospital administered the Vitamin K shot against my wishes.  At his 2 month visit for shots, the pediatrician said they were out of the normal course they give, so he would break the shots up into two separate visits.  At the 4 month visit for shots, they had the Pediatrix 5-in-1 back in stock, so my son got that, as well as HiB and Prevnar.  My son reacted very, very badly.  It was terrifying, as a parent.  He screamed and was inconsolable for three days.  He stared at the wall.  He would not make eye contact with us.  I have learned this is from brain swelling from the vaccines.  I have also learned this combination of vaccines contained approx 975 micrograms of aluminum.

For the 6 months shots, the doctor agreed to break them up again into two visits, as we had done at the 2 month visit.  the doctor also insisted my son get a flu shot, against my husband and my wishes.  he was insistent.  My husband had the flu earlier in the year, and had not given it to my son.  It was late March, yet the doctor was adamant.  My son reacted horribly and had all of the symptoms of the flu for 5+ days.  Later, when we introduced eggs, he was 'sensitive' to them (ie he vomited for hours and hours).  I have a strong suspicion this has to do w/ the flu shot he was given.

My son exhibited many indicators parents describe of their kids who later go on to develop regressive autism:
- He was a terrible sleeper for the first 2 years, never waking up less than 4 times per night.
- He wasn't good about making eye contact, and often stared up at ceilings and fans. He was generally fearful around others.
- He was late to walk and talk.
- He had food sensitivities.
- He has eczema.
- He was born to older parents.

Most importantly, he had several previous bad reactions to vaccines.  This matches how many parents describe their children who go on to develop regressive autism.  The stories are all very similar, 'my son had several bad reactions to vaccines, and then finally he had the worst reaction of all, stopped talking, and slipped into a dark hole from which he never recovered'.

We decided not to proceed with the MMR vaccine at 12 months.  I started reading studies.  I didn't find any that were convincing one way or the other.  Most are funded by the pharmaceutical companies, and if you read the study critically you find obvious flaws.  We interviewed other doctors, and found some who admitted they didn't think all of the vaccines on the recommended schedule are needed, and that it may be beneficial to draw them out, and not group so many together.  I found that the available science wasn't really very good.  If anyone has studies they think are designed well and represent good science, please send them to me.  I am receptive to reading them.

I investigated risk. I evaluated the risk of each disease against the risk of the vaccine.  People are quick to blame me, and say things like "if you don't get your son vaccinated for measles, you're putting children at risk who can't tolerate vaccines."  Well, from my perspective, my son is one of those at risk.  I am not willing to risk his brain.  I may be blamed for putting unborn babies at risk.  But you can't look at this one risk of complications from measles in a vacuum. When you decide to drive your car every day, you put people at risk (and this is just the decision to drive, not even considering if you speed, run a red light, or make a phone call while driving).  If you decide to keep a weapon in your house for self defense, you put everyone at risk who enters your house in the future.  Doctors will recommend amniocentesis even though that carries a 1 in 200 to 1 in 400 risk of killing the child.  They think this is an acceptable risk.  Yet they don't think it's acceptable to risk getting measles (with an estimated 1 in 1000 cases ending in death).  We weight risk every day.  In my mind, most people take far greater risks all the time than the risks associated with not getting vaccines.  I understand the concern is when you put other people at risk, but everyone around me takes actions to put my family at risk every day.  I believe the three biggest killers of children are car accidents, drownings and guns.  Those things are risks we can control, but we chose not to.  So to summarize this paragraph, I think people don't do a very good job at looking holistically at risk.

I've probably written enough for today.  I did a ton of investigation, and came to the conclusion for my son, that it wasn't worth the risk for him to get the MMR at 12 months.  I don't know if we'll resume vaccines, but he's developing really, really well now.  I can't completely discount anecdotal evidence from parents who have witnessed vaccine reactions, because I have been a parent whose observations have been ignored by doctors.  I have witnessed a brain reaction to combination vaccines.  I do not believe sufficient studies have been done, and would like to see better, independently done, science.



 

Gin1984

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #96 on: February 02, 2015, 10:02:33 AM »
Hello.  I haven't read all the replies, nor will I.  This is a real hot-button issue.  I'll just try to describe my situation, in case it helps lend another perspective. 

I had my son two years ago at the age of 41.  I have multiple chemical sensitivity (which is just a way of saying my body has toxic overload) which I tried to address before he was born.  I had all of my mercury fillings removed.  I stopped using deodorant with aluminum.  I replaced teflon pots.  I stopped eating canned food.  I only eat organic, free range, wild, etc food.  Many, many other changes to help me detox.  I doubt these changes did much good, but every little bit helps.  I didn't drink coffee while pregnant or trying to conceive.  I exercised.  I took no OTC drugs.  But I knew my son would be born at a toxic disadvantage compared to a baby born to the average healthy 25 year old.

I wanted to spread out the vaccines, but our pediatrician wasn't very accommodating.  He agreed to postpone the Hep B at birth, but the hospital administered the Vitamin K shot against my wishes.  At his 2 month visit for shots, the pediatrician said they were out of the normal course they give, so he would break the shots up into two separate visits.  At the 4 month visit for shots, they had the Pediatrix 5-in-1 back in stock, so my son got that, as well as HiB and Prevnar.  My son reacted very, very badly.  It was terrifying, as a parent.  He screamed and was inconsolable for three days.  He stared at the wall.  He would not make eye contact with us.  I have learned this is from brain swelling from the vaccines.  I have also learned this combination of vaccines contained approx 975 micrograms of aluminum.

For the 6 months shots, the doctor agreed to break them up again into two visits, as we had done at the 2 month visit.  the doctor also insisted my son get a flu shot, against my husband and my wishes.  he was insistent.  My husband had the flu earlier in the year, and had not given it to my son.  It was late March, yet the doctor was adamant.  My son reacted horribly and had all of the symptoms of the flu for 5+ days.  Later, when we introduced eggs, he was 'sensitive' to them (ie he vomited for hours and hours).  I have a strong suspicion this has to do w/ the flu shot he was given.

My son exhibited many indicators parents describe of their kids who later go on to develop regressive autism:
- He was a terrible sleeper for the first 2 years, never waking up less than 4 times per night.
- He wasn't good about making eye contact, and often stared up at ceilings and fans. He was generally fearful around others.
- He was late to walk and talk.
- He had food sensitivities.
- He has eczema.
- He was born to older parents.

Most importantly, he had several previous bad reactions to vaccines.  This matches how many parents describe their children who go on to develop regressive autism.  The stories are all very similar, 'my son had several bad reactions to vaccines, and then finally he had the worst reaction of all, stopped talking, and slipped into a dark hole from which he never recovered'.

We decided not to proceed with the MMR vaccine at 12 months.  I started reading studies.  I didn't find any that were convincing one way or the other.  Most are funded by the pharmaceutical companies, and if you read the study critically you find obvious flaws.  We interviewed other doctors, and found some who admitted they didn't think all of the vaccines on the recommended schedule are needed, and that it may be beneficial to draw them out, and not group so many together.  I found that the available science wasn't really very good.  If anyone has studies they think are designed well and represent good science, please send them to me.  I am receptive to reading them.

I investigated risk. I evaluated the risk of each disease against the risk of the vaccine.  People are quick to blame me, and say things like "if you don't get your son vaccinated for measles, you're putting children at risk who can't tolerate vaccines."  Well, from my perspective, my son is one of those at risk.  I am not willing to risk his brain.  I may be blamed for putting unborn babies at risk.  But you can't look at this one risk of complications from measles in a vacuum. When you decide to drive your car every day, you put people at risk (and this is just the decision to drive, not even considering if you speed, run a red light, or make a phone call while driving).  If you decide to keep a weapon in your house for self defense, you put everyone at risk who enters your house in the future.  Doctors will recommend amniocentesis even though that carries a 1 in 200 to 1 in 400 risk of killing the child.  They think this is an acceptable risk.  Yet they don't think it's acceptable to risk getting measles (with an estimated 1 in 1000 cases ending in death).  We weight risk every day.  In my mind, most people take far greater risks all the time than the risks associated with not getting vaccines.  I understand the concern is when you put other people at risk, but everyone around me takes actions to put my family at risk every day.  I believe the three biggest killers of children are car accidents, drownings and guns.  Those things are risks we can control, but we chose not to.  So to summarize this paragraph, I think people don't do a very good job at looking holistically at risk.

I've probably written enough for today.  I did a ton of investigation, and came to the conclusion for my son, that it wasn't worth the risk for him to get the MMR at 12 months.  I don't know if we'll resume vaccines, but he's developing really, really well now.  I can't completely discount anecdotal evidence from parents who have witnessed vaccine reactions, because I have been a parent whose observations have been ignored by doctors.  I have witnessed a brain reaction to combination vaccines.  I do not believe sufficient studies have been done, and would like to see better, independently done, science.
OMG, you are the issue.  Vit K shot keeps your kid from dying and is complete safe. There is a bigger risk to your kid giving birth.  You obviously don't have the education to make these determinations.  There have been multiple studies done, some funded from private non-profits, some from the government and yes some from pharm companies.  The plural of anecdotes in not data.  You have decided it is better to risk your son's life than get a shot.  The stats are that the risk of him dying or being serious harmed is higher without the vaccine than from the vaccine.  I don't even know how you think you are able to determine what is good science when you can't even understand basic statistics, which you could learn not only undergrad but even in high school. 
As I have said before, but you missed because you don't bother reading:  Go take college level biology class, then take another, then learn how to read peer review studies and determine  the validity of the research, then you have the knowledge to make decisions. Then I'll bother posting peer reviewed studies, because at this point you don't appear to be able to understand even undergrad science.

Quinn

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #97 on: February 02, 2015, 10:05:06 AM »
Hello.  I haven't read all the replies, nor will I.  This is a real hot-button issue.  I'll just try to describe my situation, in case it helps lend another perspective. 

If you find the time, maybe you can read through the thread.

I found that the available science wasn't really very good.  If anyone has studies they think are designed well and represent good science, please send them to me.  I am receptive to reading them.

Just reposting neophyte's link at the top of this page. 21 pages of links to studies on vaccines. http://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/VaccineStudies.pdf

caliq

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #98 on: February 02, 2015, 10:10:56 AM »
Not to be overly harsh here, wild wendella, but you had a baby at 41 -- why are you immediately jumping to other causes of possible developmental issues in your son, when there's a glaringly obvious, well studied and well proven cause right in front of you?

I get that it's really difficult to think about that and that you might be searching for other things in an effort to preserve your sanity but....come on.

Luck better Skill

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Re: Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy
« Reply #99 on: February 02, 2015, 10:12:43 AM »
  Here is a great Think Fast Think Slow event (see Vacccine Injury Act below).  Someone runs across the knowledge science, the CDC, doctors, etc acknowledge that a few people have negative reactions to vaccines.  (3,887 compensation awards since 1989.)  This raises doubts in their minds about the safety which in turn can cause more misinterpretations.  So when this person hears vaccines are 100% safe they know the speaker is either unaware of the facts or lying.  So when I tell you that 60 to 160 people a year have a reaction to a vaccine and horror 1 or 2 could die the tendency is to overrate the risk.
  My personal experience is educated Liberals more than conservatives or the uneducated believe vaccines cause autism.  Doctors and nurses I have interaction with state the same, but still a small sample group. 



On October 1, 1988, the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986 (Public Law 99-660) created the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP). The VICP was established to ensure an adequate supply of vaccines, stabilize vaccine costs, and establish and maintain an accessible and efficient forum for individuals found to be injured by certain vaccines. The VICP is a no-fault alternative to the traditional tort system for resolving vaccine injury claims that provides compensation to people found to be injured by certain vaccines. The U. S. Court of Federal Claims decides who will be paid. Three Federal government offices have a role in the VICP:

http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/index.html

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!