Not Vaccinating Your Children is Crazy

[MrsK]

Perhaps I have been living under a rock (I did not move to the U.S. until I was 21 and I am a long-time military wife with Tricare) but why would anyone NOT vaccinate their kids?  I have been thrilled with all of the vaccines to come out over the past 2 decades--chicken pox, HPV, etc. and so grateful my kids have had them.  My mom had polio as a child and still suffers from the effects. 

Perhaps it is my MMM-mindset, but proactively preventing something like illness is like a having a huge savings account.  You are richer in health. 

What do you guys make of it?  Are these the same people who do not believe in evolution or climate change?  Is this a religious thing?  I just don't get it. 

[Gin1984]

I have talked with a couple, both were very uneducated and got their ideas from the internet.  They then thought their opinion equal to scientists who study this for years.  Basically we need better science education in this country.

[Metta]

What do you guys make of it?  Are these the same people who do not believe in evolution or climate change?  Is this a religious thing?  I just don't get it.

It's not the same people (though I suppose there is some cross-over) but it's not driven by the same things. My guess is that it is a combination of things: 1) Ignorance of history and a dream of the past as some sort of Eden; 2) Giving shots to small children feels very invasive and cruel; and 3) No one is obviously being damaged by the diseases these days. It appears (incorrectly) that the problem is solved and who wants to take even a small risk of complications for no reason.

Added to that is some laziness or difficulty in scheduling, as well, I suspect.

[Paul der Krake]

There are strong anti-science and anti-intellectualism undercurrents in the general population, where people think it's perfectly acceptable to boast of one's inability to do math or not knowing the differences between a planet, a moon, and a star.

Add to that the fact that many people weren't around when epidemics killed people, a pervasive culture that encourages "standing up for what you believe" regardless of your qualifications or facts, policies based on taking books written thousands of years ago at face value, undertones of government conspiracies, and this is what you get.

[justajane]

Six years ago, I went with a delayed schedule on vaccinating my first, but each vaccine was only delayed by one month or so. I just didn't want to stick my son with four shots at once. At the time, my pediatrician was cooperative with this approach, but in light of the anti-vaccine movement, today that will not fly in our practice. With my third born 8 months ago, I just went with the regular schedule. I can certainly understand, because in many respects I think the doctors are just sick and tired of having the same conversations over and over again about the efficacy and safety of vaccines.

The only two I had a problem with originally were Hep B and Chicken Pox. For those we delayed for years with my first. I will readily admit now that this was somewhat ignorant on my part. I thought that Hep B was primarily (at least in this country) an STD and thus that I could wait until 12 or so to get that done. I had had Chicken Pox with no ill effect, therefore.... I mention this just to reinforce the idea that part of the anti-vaccination movement is informed by a lack of real understanding about how devastating these illnesses can be. This is combined with the above mentioned discomfort with sticking tiny humans.

But I cannot defend nor understand anyone who would not vaccinate their children at all. It's one thing to wait an extra month; it's entirely another to not do it all. This is beyond me, really. I grew up hearing stories from my mom about polio and all the other nasty diseases she encountered or had. In the case of disease, I really don't think the mantra "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger" holds. Even if these diseases don't kill you, they can leave you with lifelong problems, whether it be with your heart, your lungs, your eyes, etc. These aren't benign diseases, hence why scientists developed vaccines for them.

Perhaps anti-vaxxers should spend a few hours in an older cemetery to see how many children died at a young age.

I was just at the pediatrician this morning, because my baby is quite ill. It turned out to be an ear infection, but I was not thrilled when I realized his symptoms resembled the early symptoms of measles. I live in the Midwest, so it was unlikely to be that, but I mentioned it to our doctor, and he immediately piped up and said, "Well, it's not that far-fetched." I'm rather frustrated that I even have to be having this conversation with my pediatrician and discussing how, if a measles case shows up in our city, we will give my son the MMR vaccine a few months early. We shouldn't have to have this conversation at all. Parents, vaccinate your kids already!!!

[MoneyCat]

I've started spreading rumors that vaccines are full of antioxidants that detox children's bodies.  Hopefully, this will help the situation.

[Matthew]

MrsK - The way you phrase the question seems fairly antagonistic, so it's not clear whether you are trying to understand or voicing a protestation.  If the former, here are some points from where I stand:

1.  We know a lot of people who delay or forego vaccinations.  In our experience these parents are not religious zealots or uneducated boors.  They actually tend to be very well informed, better than I am certainly.  But they have decided to question whether the carte-blanche institutional solution to vaccinations is appropriate for their kids. 

2.  There seem to be two equally irresponsible extreme positions.  A:  If everyone vaccinates for everything, then I don't have to vaccinate for anything.  B:  If the government says this is the right thing for our baby, then by golly we'd better just do it (and for good measure we'll be condescending toward anyone who disagrees).

We have 3 young kids.  We research every vaccine we give them, and choose the schedule.  There are very few we have said "no" to.

[Paul der Krake]

I've started spreading rumors that vaccines are full of antioxidants that detox children's bodies.  Hopefully, this will help the situation.

But are they gluten free?

[justajane]

There are very few we have said "no" to.

Out of curiosity, which ones?

[AlanStache]

Some people want to be all natural and dont want to give there kids chemicals*, its like how going organic will remove modern DNA* from your food that we did not evolve to eat.

chemicals*: "It cannot be separated into components by physical separation methods, i.e. without breaking chemical bonds. It can be solid, liquid, gas, or plasma."  - Wikipedia

modern DNA*: every generation of a species has DNA changes from past generations, evolution is unavoidable in reproduction.

My aunt sells some line of 'natural' cosmetics and one of her big selling points is they contain no chemicals. 

Yes we need to spread the word that vaccines are full of gluten free-antioxidants!!!

[Matthew]

There are very few we have said "no" to.

Out of curiosity, which ones?

Oh, you had to ask.....I'd need to check with my wife to be sure, but I'm pretty sure we skipped Hep B and chicken pox for all 3 kids, the vitamin k shot for one (home birth - and yes I know that's not a vaccine, it's just a needle.  And I think it's available orally now), and we generally don't get the yearly flu vaccine.

Also, if memory serves, we delayed the DTaP for all 3.

[deborah]

As someone who had TB injections years BEFORE I was supposed to (my dad had TB before I was born), and has seen the problems that an under-vaccinated population has, I cannot understand people not doing it.

Not vaccinating for chicken pox!!! No wonder shingles is becoming more prevalent!

"Doing your own research" is often just a method for allowing fanatics to overrule common sense.

[Bob W]

Actually it is the most educated and most uneducated that forgo vaccines.   There are significant side effects in about 1 in 10000 children with vaccines.  So the personal math is in favor of skipping many vaccines.  Virtually no one spreads polio and measles are almost nonexistent in the US.  I was very reluctant to give our children vaccines and I ran a public health clinic for 5 years.      I'm a nonreligious, climate aware person.

[justajane]

There are very few we have said "no" to.

Out of curiosity, which ones?

Oh, you had to ask.....I'd need to check with my wife to be sure, but I'm pretty sure we skipped Hep B and chicken pox for all 3 kids, the vitamin k shot for one (home birth - and yes I know that's not a vaccine, it's just a needle.  And I think it's available orally now), and we generally don't get the yearly flu vaccine.

Also, if memory serves, we delayed the DTaP for all 3.

I understand the chicken pox, but the Hep B should only be delayed but not forgone entirely. For me, I couldn't get the DTaP fast enough for my kids. Our pediatrician friend has seen firsthand what pertussis can do to little babies' lungs. That's extremely dangerous. Presumably, you got it once your kids were wandering around in the yard on their own? Because hello - tetanus in the soil and elsewhere outside. That's also no joke.

The lack of a Vit. K shot doesn't hurt anyone but the baby, but the stakes are rather high on that one, i.e. the potential to hemorrhage to death. And this shot is pretty much 100% effective at preventing that.

I say this not to be antagonistic but out of genuine concern for babies and children. I think you read the OP's post as antagonistic, because I think people are genuinely flummoxed why people don't trust the advice of doctors who have spent the better part of a decade immersed in science and the profession and instead listen to random people on the internet or their own inner voice telling themselves something different.

[thepokercab]

"Doing your own research" is often just a method for allowing fanatics to overrule common sense.

I think there are some threads of the anti-vaccine movement that are indeed 'fanatical' but i think the surge in the movement (if that's what its called) is actually driven by, ironically well-educated people and their concerns over 'toxins' or whatever you want to call the things most Americans tend to consume without thinking twice about it. There's has been quite the push in recent years to move towards an "all natural" lifestyle; especially around food choices and the amount of crap that we tend to put into our bodies. I see many strands of it all over the MMM community. 

This isn't to say I agree with not vaccinating your kids.  Just saying that I don't think its necessarily driven by "radicalism" or fanatical thinking. 

[LRM]

Anti-vaccinators drive me NUTS.
The following are things I have heard in clinic:
1. "Vaccines cause autism" ... NO THEY DON'T. The journal that published that scientifically-horrible study retracted it!
2. "Big pharma shouldn't tell me what is right for my family" .. So you want your children to get chicken pox and maybe shingles one day? Ever heard of scars and/or post herpatic neuralgia? Those are real things, and the latter is super painful! And that is just one example

http://whatshouldwecallmedschool.tumblr.com/post/78677970603/whenever-a-patient-argues-that-vaccines-arent

[deborah]

"Doing your own research" is often just a method for allowing fanatics to overrule common sense.

I think there are some threads of the anti-vaccine movement that are indeed 'fanatical' but i think the surge in the movement (if that's what its called) is actually driven by, ironically well-educated people and their concerns over 'toxins' or whatever you want to call the things most Americans tend to consume without thinking twice about it. There's has been quite the push in recent years to move towards an "all natural" lifestyle; especially around food choices and the amount of crap that we tend to put into our bodies. I see many strands of it all over the MMM community. 

This isn't to say I agree with not vaccinating your kids.  Just saying that I don't think its necessarily driven by "radicalism" or fanatical thinking. 

I meant that when you do your own research, on vaccinations, there are so many fanatic posts vs scientific posts, that the "researcher" is quite overwhelmed, and thus tends to let the fanatics rule.

Actually it is the most educated and most uneducated that forgo vaccines.   There are significant side effects in about 1 in 10000 children with vaccines.  So the personal math is in favor of skipping many vaccines. 

So long as 80% of the population is vaccinated. Therefore you should vaccinate 4 out of five of your children in every vaccine (skip every fifth vaccine at random in each child?) to get the personal maths in your favour. Of course, you probably haven't done family history, and seen a graveyard with 11 of the 12 children of your great grandparents having died within a week of a childhood ailment that is vaccinated against these days.

[lizzzi]

As a grandmother who has had some of what we used to call the "normal childhood diseases"--because the vaccines were not in place yet--I suspect people aren't vaccinating their kids because they just don't realize how  really sick and uncomfortable these diseases can be for the sufferer. I don't recall German measles (rubella) bothering me much, nor chickenpox really, other than the fact that it itches you to insanity. But mumps hurts…those swollen neck glands are so uncomfortable…and of course, it will make males sterile. When I had regular measles (rubeola) I remember the severe itching, but more than that, I remember how badly light hurt my eyes. Just pulling the curtains wasn't enough. My parents had to hang blankets over the bedroom windows to make it as dark as possible. I remember that with regular measles and with mumps I was definitely confined to bed--too sick to be up. The German measles and chickenpox didn't make me sick in that same severe way.  But as we know, if a mother in early pregnancy had caught my German measles, it would have caused birth defects in the baby. And now that I've got the chickenpox virus floating around in my system, I suppose I had better go and get a shingles shot.

So yeah, vaccinate your kids. Plus 100000000000 for….why wouldn't you?

[Gin1984]

I wish the chicken pox vax had been around when I was younger.  I had it young enough to not remember, but my DH got it when he was in his 30's, and was out of work for something like 3 weeks. 

A couple friends (40's) have had very painful shingles episodes.  For some reason the shingles vax is not recommended until you're older.

Because it is effective for 7-10 year max and research has not been done on the effectiveness over a long period of time.  In addition people over 60 are most at risk.

[Cpa Cat]

I understand that some now-discredited science fooled people into thinking vaccines were dangerous for young children. It seems silly to me, but I understand why parents would feel over-protective of their baby/toddler. But then the kid ages and is entering school and the school is asking the parents to vaccinate - what's the excuse then? There's not even some discredited science to convince people not to vaccinate older children. There's absolutely no foundation to that decision.

And frankly, it seems morally objectionable to deprive your children of the vaccines that you enjoyed the benefit of. Parents put their kids at risk because they've never witnessed any of these diseases. Well duh. It's because the parents grew up with vaccines.

Then they think: Oh my goodness, time to take my unvaccinated kid to Disney. What could go wrong? Afterall, these diseases don't exist in the good ole USA!

Of course, Disney is packed full of families from all over the world - including countries where these diseases aren't "dead." Also kids from California, where there's an active measles outbreak even now. And people don't cancel their trip to Disney just because their kid is a little under the weather. Oh no, they take those coughing, sneezing, feverish kids on their "dream" Disney vacation and drag them around the theme park.

I don't get it. When I went back to school, I was using the student health services and I asked for Tetanus update because I knew mine was 10 years old. My doctor launches into this spiel about how she'd like to give me the one that combine Tetanus and  Whopping Cough because the university was having some problems containing an outbreak. So I say, "Sure." And she keeps talking about how the effectiveness of our childhood vaccines run out and it's advisable to get boosters. I had to tell her three times that I was convinced. And she laughs and says, "Oh sorry - I'm just so used to having to convince people!"

WTF? Why would I not want vaccines?!

[Davids]

I can't believe people still believe the BS that vaccines can cause autism. It really pisses me off whenever I hear about parents not vaccinating their kid. I think though in the USA it is more of a West Coast California thing where kids are not getting vaccinated or on a "delayed" schedule. My wife's has a cousin who lives in San Diego and my understanding is their child is on a delayed vaccine schedule. What a load of horsecrap.

[southern granny]

There is actually a chiropractor in my area that counsels his patient no to have their children immunized.  Sad but true.

[deborah]

And frankly, it seems morally objectionable to deprive your children of the vaccines that you enjoyed the benefit of. Parents put their kids at risk because they've never witnessed any of these diseases. Well duh. It's because the parents grew up with vaccines.

I guess we've got to the stage where people just don't realise what medicine has done, and what infectious diseases were like. I am in my 50's, and we were the last generation who knew about the perils of life before penicillin (as well as a lot of the vaccines that are around today). THERE WERE ORPHANAGES. Why? Because of the limited vaccines available and because penicillin was only just around. People DIED as children and in their child-bearing years.

There was an orphanage across the road from our house, and orphans went to school with me. By the time I was in my teens, orphanages were being bulldozed.

So now, people are not vaccinating their children and we are running out of time with penicillin. The poor parents and children of today really won't know what will hit them!

[sheepgetlambs]

We delayed exactly one vaccine with our oldest because she was extremely underweight for her age. (7 lb. 4 oz. at birth, 15 lb. at one year- she ended up on a special high-fat diet plus continuing breast milk until 15 months). We went with the normal vaccination schedule with our second because he had had two surgeries and had spent enough time being sick that we didn't want to risk anything else with him. Our results were not typical but he is what happened: our oldest go the shot right around age 4, so she could enter preschool. Our youngest developed shingles FROM the vaccine! We thought he had a rash that wouldn't clear up to took him to the Dr. who swabbed and cultured it because it looked like shingles to her. Yup. It was. That was followed by a very nasty call from the county health department demanding to know why we hadn't vaccinated Nd who we had been in contact with. Oh, and how did we KNOW it was shingles? I told her the Dr. diagnosed it, which it now she got the information, and that we HAD vaccinated and that was why he had developed shingles. She remained very confrontational but I insisted that we hadn't done anything she was accusing me of and that she should call our Dr. to check her facts.
The only upside is that he didn't need a booster to enter school as we could just show a letter from the Dr. that he has full immunity from actually having the disease. Of course, he needed his other boosters, but he didn't have any reaction to that.
I am still a full supporter of vaccines but feel frustrated that anti-vaccination movement has put public health workers so on the defensive that the one who called me felt the need to be confrontational and not really listen until I reiterated the facts again and again.
If I had to do it over again, I would have waited a little longer to do the chicken pox vaccine. We also intend to wait a bit on Guardasil, when the time comes. When our kids are in high school we will let them make that decision in private with their Drs.

[justajane]

I can't believe people still believe the BS that vaccines can cause autism. It really pisses me off whenever I hear about parents not vaccinating their kid. I think though in the USA it is more of a West Coast California thing where kids are not getting vaccinated or on a "delayed" schedule. My wife's has a cousin who lives in San Diego and my understanding is their child is on a delayed vaccine schedule. What a load of horsecrap.

Perhaps my own experience is coloring this, but I don't think that we should lump parents who use the "delayed vaccine schedule" in with the non-vaxxers. They are not one in the same, and by collapsing them, we run the risk of alienating parents who are already open to vaccines. I guess it depends on how delayed the schedule is. Like I wrote upthread, delayed in our case was just a month or so and on the Hep B and chicken pox a few years. I had a rather misplaced notion early on in my parenting journey that it mattered to give a baby four shots at once, as if it would overload their system. I'm glad that my pediatrician was somewhat open to this and didn't kick me out of the practice early on. Do we really want to take a hard-line approach on that aspect, lest we run the risk of parents then opting to not vaccinate at all?

I know a lot of people have no respect for Dr. Sears, but like many other parents, I read his materials and followed his alternate vaccine schedule early on. I believe at this point even he (or his children) have pulled back from that schedule, but initially it was intended as a way to ensure that those who were initially uncomfortable with the vaccines would ultimately get them for their children. I don't think he anticipated how far parents would go in eschewing them altogether.

All vaccines are important, but in my opinion, the most important from a public health standpoint are the MMR, DTaP, Hib, and polio. The last one is negotiable, only because it has been eradicated in most of the world. IMO doctors should push to have those be the ones that are given on time. Having said that, all kids should be fully vaccinated by kindergarten, and if they aren't, then they shouldn't attend public schools.   

[caliq]

I can't believe people still believe the BS that vaccines can cause autism. It really pisses me off whenever I hear about parents not vaccinating their kid. I think though in the USA it is more of a West Coast California thing where kids are not getting vaccinated or on a "delayed" schedule. My wife's has a cousin who lives in San Diego and my understanding is their child is on a delayed vaccine schedule. What a load of horsecrap.

Perhaps my own experience is coloring this, but I don't think that we should lump parents who use the "delayed vaccine schedule" in with the non-vaxxers. They are not one in the same, and by collapsing them, we run the risk of alienating parents who are already open to vaccines. I guess it depends on how delayed the schedule is. Like I wrote upthread, delayed in our case was just a month or so and on the Hep B and chicken pox a few years. I had a rather misplaced notion early on in my parenting journey that it mattered to give a baby four shots at once, as if it would overload their system. I'm glad that my pediatrician was somewhat open to this and didn't kick me out of the practice early on. Do we really want to take a hard-line approach on that aspect, lest we run the risk of parents then opting to not vaccinate at all?

I know a lot of people have no respect for Dr. Sears, but like many other parents, I read his materials and followed his alternate vaccine schedule early on. I believe at this point even he (or his children) have pulled back from that schedule, but initially it was intended as a way to ensure that those who were initially uncomfortable with the vaccines would ultimately get them for their children. I don't think he anticipated how far parents would go in eschewing them altogether.

All vaccines are important, but in my opinion, the most important from a public health standpoint are the MMR, DTaP, Hib, and polio. The last one is negotiable, only because it has been eradicated in most of the world. IMO doctors should push to have those be the ones that are given on time. Having said that, all kids should be fully vaccinated by kindergarten, and if they aren't, then they shouldn't attend public schools.

That's exactly why doctors go along with delayed schedules -- something is better than nothing, and if it gets a parent to vaccinate when they otherwise might not have, they'll go along with it. 

It's not as bad as not vaccinating at all but it's still not great.

[Gin1984]

We delayed exactly one vaccine with our oldest because she was extremely underweight for her age. (7 lb. 4 oz. at birth, 25 lb. at one year). We went with the normal schedule with our second because he had had two surgeries and had spent enough time being sick that we didn't want to risk anything else with him. Our results were not typical but he is what happened: our oldest go the shot right around age 4, so she could enter preschool. Our youngest developed shingles FROM the vaccine! We thought he had a rash that wouldn't clear up to took him to the Dr. who swabbed and cultured it because it looked like shingles to her. Yup. It was. That was followed by a very nasty call from the county health department demanding to know why we hadn't vaccinated Nd who we had been in contact with. Oh, and how did we KNOW it was shingles? I told her the Dr. diagnosed it, which it now she got the information, and that we HAD vaccinated and that was why he had developed shingles. She remained very confrontational but I insisted that we hadn't done anything she was accusing me of and that she should call our Dr. to check her facts.
The only upside is that he didn't need a booster to enter school as we could just show a letter from the Dr. that he has full immunity from actually having the disease. Of course, he needed his other boosters, but he didn't have any reaction to that.
I am still a full supporter of vaccines but feel frustrated that anti-vaccination movement has put public health workers so on the defensive that the one who called me felt the need to be confrontational and not really listen until I reiterated the facts again and again.
If I had to do it over again, I would have waited a little longer to do the chicken pox vaccine. We also intend to wait a bit on Guardasil, when the time comes. When our kids are in high school we will let them make that decision in private with their Drs.

You can't get shingles from the vaccine.  Shingles is by definition the REACTIVATION of VZV from within the DRG neuron or trigeminal neurons once it has been silenced.  He could get chicken pox from the vaccine, though that is unlikely.  When you culture the virus, you would be able to tell it is VZV but that does not mean shingles/herpes zoster.  My entire Master's project was on infection of the DRGs by VZV, what you are saying is just not possible based on the definition of the disease state.

[paddedhat]

There is actually a chiropractor in my area that counsels his patient no to have their children immunized.  Sad but true.

  I just read an article in the Tampa Fl. paper today, quoting a local young female chiropractor who refuses to vaccinate her own children, since "God is in charge of our bodies"  WTF?  We only spend a few months in this part of the country every year to avoid the below zero temps. and blizzards at home. On that note, there is simply no way in hell I could live here, surrounded by a huge number of wacked out religious zealots.   

[justajane]

That's exactly why doctors go along with delayed schedules -- something is better than nothing, and if it gets a parent to vaccinate when they otherwise might not have, they'll go along with it. 

It's not as bad as not vaccinating at all but it's still not great.

Oh, I agree. It's a public health risk, for sure, especially if you're talking about the big ones like MMR. I just can't get as mad about it as I do about those who send their kids to school without vaccines. I mean, holy hell. I live in a state that doesn't allow philosophical exemptions but only religious ones. What this means is that those who subscribe to the Church of the Holy Internet or the Temple of Crowdsourcing just sign it anyway. My next door neighbor is a Catholic mom who was (and I quote) "surprised by how easy it was to become exempt when I signed little Johnny up for kindergarten. I mean all I had to do was sign one form, and we were good to go."

I'm glad it was so easy for her to put my two boys and the rest of the student body at risk! Last I checked Catholicism wasn't formally opposed to vaccines. 

[Gin1984]

That's exactly why doctors go along with delayed schedules -- something is better than nothing, and if it gets a parent to vaccinate when they otherwise might not have, they'll go along with it. 

It's not as bad as not vaccinating at all but it's still not great.

Oh, I agree. It's a public health risk, for sure, especially if you're talking about the big ones like MMR. I just can't get as mad about it as I do about those who send their kids to school without vaccines. I mean, holy hell. I live in a state that doesn't allow philosophical exemptions but only religious ones. What this means is that those who subscribe to the Church of the Holy Internet or the Temple of Crowdsourcing just sign it anyway. My next door neighbor is a Catholic mom who was (and I quote) "surprised by how easy it was to become exempt when I signed little Johnny up for kindergarten. I mean all I had to do was sign one form, and we were good to go."

I'm glad it was so easy for her to put my two boys and the rest of the student body at risk! Last I checked Catholicism wasn't formally opposed to vaccines.

And this is why my kids are going to private schools, they don't have to allow religious/idiot expemptions.

[dividendman]

I hate how parents have virtually unlimited rights with their offspring. You do not own your children, you are their *guardian*!!!

Mutilating body parts, refusing vaccines, teaching them mumbo jumbo, it's ridiculous. I wish every child had their parents, but also an advocate, who would look after the child's best interest regardless of the proclivities of his or her parents and could overrule the parents if need be. (I realize this is impossible to put into practice)

[sheepgetlambs]

Gin1984,
Please explain in even more simple layman's terms. I have no medical background and am relaying what I recall our Dr. saying. I do have record showing the cultured pox was herpes zoster (had forgotten the name). Baby was home with me, older sibling was in preschool with 100% vaccination rate (only 7 kids). No known exposure except from vaccine. But, if I understand what you're saying, he couldn't have developed shingles from the vaccine, then what happened? Did the vaccine not have time to protect him and he was exposed somewhere else? If there was some unknown exposure, why didn't he develop chicken pox? Why shingles? This really confuses me. To be honest, I rarely share the story becUse I don't want to give anyone any negative ideas about vaccination.

[Knapptyme]

After reading many of the previous posts, it seems like any true non-vaccinator is unlikely to offer their opinions to a pack of wolves. With our first child, we followed the educated method of pick-and-choose or delay when possible. We made sure to read about each vaccine before the appointment so not to be cornered by an educated doctor. Most of the literature we read was to spread them out, if possible, to avoid compounding side effects. Also, while linked anecdotally or in reality, vaccines are administered laced with natural products such as peanut oil. While correlation may not be reason for causation, a human body building immunities to diseases laced with peanut oil that inadvertently produces antibodies for peanut oil triggering unnecessary food allergies does not seem improbable.

http://www.infowars.com/peanut-oil-in-vaccines-behind-widespread-peanut-allergy-epidemic/
http://www.naturalnews.com/039192_peanut_oil_vaccines_allergies.html
http://www.offthegridnews.com/2013/03/14/the-shocking-link-between-peanut-allergies-and-vaccines/
http://www.smartvax.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=73:vaccine-induced-allergies
http://www.thedoctorwithin.com/allergies/vaccines-and-the-peanut-allergy-epidemic/
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/02/03/as-peanut-allergies-rise-trying-to-determine-a-cause/?_r=0

I did not read all of the articles linked above, but you can google it for yourselves. There are both pros, cons, and unknowns to some vaccinations. As for whatever Guardasil was offering young girls a few years back for HPV--don't even get me started. That was more like a Sucka Consumer ploy.

Call me crazy, but I'm going to take the scientific approach of caution with respect to the data, or lack thereof. We also seek alternative means to vaccination if peanut oil is the main ingredient. FWIW, our child did have alarming lethargy and fever from a couple of the vaccines we did get. I wasn't really scared about it, knowing that he was likely safer in the long run, but it was unpleasant at the time to say the least.

Okay, so I've asked for it, bring on the hate. (Will the hate be worse if I mention I'm religious even if that had no bearing on my choosing to educate myself on what is injected into my son? Do I gain/lose respect for choosing not to put my son the through painful mutilation of circumcision?)

I hate how parents have virtually unlimited rights with their offspring. You do not own your children, you are their *guardian*!!!

Mutilating body parts, refusing vaccines, teaching them mumbo jumbo, it's ridiculous. I wish every child had their parents, but also an advocate, who would look after the child's best interest regardless of the proclivities of his or her parents and could overrule the parents if need be. (I realize this is impossible to put into practice)

I don't like what this might imply to someone like me, but I will say that I would be an advocate of this idea with regards to what we feed our children. They don't deserve the poison of the standard american diet that most of them receive.

[cthoops]

 we generally don't get the yearly flu vaccine.

Obviously not the same as the MMR and other vaccines, but I'm willing to bet that after you get the real flu - and I'm not talking about the fluey-cold type ailment, but rather The Flu - you'll start getting the shot after that.

I got the real flu three years ago, and was flat on my back for a week. It was another week after that before I started to really recover.  I remember telling Mr. Cthoops Towards the end of the first week that if this went on for another three weeks I would rather be dead.  And I meant it.  I get an annual flu shot now.

[Elliot]

My partner was not vaccinated and is still allergic to peanuts. It's faulty logic at best.

The risk of having a non neurotypical child or a child with food allergies is truly more terrifying to you than widespread morbidity and mortality from an entirely preventable illness?

[Gin1984]

Gin1984,
Please explain in even more simple layman's terms. I have no medical background and am relaying what I recall our Dr. saying. I do have record showing the cultured pox was herpes zoster (had forgotten the name). Baby was home with me, older sibling was in preschool with 100% vaccination rate (only 7 kids). No known exposure except from vaccine. But, if I understand what you're saying, he couldn't have developed shingles from the vaccine, then what happened? Did the vaccine not have time to protect him and he was exposed somewhere else? If there was some unknown exposure, why didn't he develop chicken pox? Why shingles? This really confuses me. To be honest, I rarely share the story becUse I don't want to give anyone any negative ideas about vaccination.

So shingles is the reactivation of the chickpox virus.  Chicken pox is called varicella and shingles call herpes zoster therefore the virus is varicella zoster virus or VZV.  When you culture the virus there is no way to determine if it is chicken pox or shingles.  So by defintion of shingles, you can't catch it. 
Yes, getting the vaccine means VZV is in your system, can move up the sensory nerves and become silenced and then later be reactivated and then you have shingles but there is no way to have shingles without the silencing.  Let's put it this way, if what you understood was correct your kid would be profiled in medical journals and your MD a well known name of someone who advanced the knowledge of this disease.  This would have been major news in the field and frankly turned the field upside down. 
The more likely explanation was either it was a very bad chicken pox (which yes could have been from the vaccine) or (less likely), he was exposed to chicken pox even younger but did not show the rash much and you did not notice, then it reactivated as shingles after the vaccine.  However, the reason why I'd say the second on is less likely is the rarity of children, especially that young getting shingles.  It normally occurs only within an immun-compermised person and more frequently in that group in the teens not one to two years old.  Again, something that your MD would have likely published to improve his standing in medical community.   

[Gin1984]

After reading many of the previous posts, it seems like any true non-vaccinator is unlikely to offer their opinions to a pack of wolves. With our first child, we followed the educated method of pick-and-choose or delay when possible. We made sure to read about each vaccine before the appointment so not to be cornered by an educated doctor. Most of the literature we read was to spread them out, if possible, to avoid compounding side effects. Also, while linked anecdotally or in reality, vaccines are administered laced with natural products such as peanut oil. While correlation may not be reason for causation, a human body building immunities to diseases laced with peanut oil that inadvertently produces antibodies for peanut oil triggering unnecessary food allergies does not seem improbable.

http://www.infowars.com/peanut-oil-in-vaccines-behind-widespread-peanut-allergy-epidemic/
http://www.naturalnews.com/039192_peanut_oil_vaccines_allergies.html
http://www.offthegridnews.com/2013/03/14/the-shocking-link-between-peanut-allergies-and-vaccines/
http://www.smartvax.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=73:vaccine-induced-allergies
http://www.thedoctorwithin.com/allergies/vaccines-and-the-peanut-allergy-epidemic/
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/02/03/as-peanut-allergies-rise-trying-to-determine-a-cause/?_r=0

I did not read all of the articles linked above, but you can google it for yourselves. There are both pros, cons, and unknowns to some vaccinations. As for whatever Guardasil was offering young girls a few years back for HPV--don't even get me started. That was more like a Sucka Consumer ploy.

Call me crazy, but I'm going to take the scientific approach of caution with respect to the data, or lack thereof. We also seek alternative means to vaccination if peanut oil is the main ingredient. FWIW, our child did have alarming lethargy and fever from a couple of the vaccines we did get. I wasn't really scared about it, knowing that he was likely safer in the long run, but it was unpleasant at the time to say the least.

Okay, so I've asked for it, bring on the hate. (Will the hate be worse if I mention I'm religious even if that had no bearing on my choosing to educate myself on what is injected into my son? Do I gain/lose respect for choosing not to put my son the through painful mutilation of circumcision?)

I hate how parents have virtually unlimited rights with their offspring. You do not own your children, you are their *guardian*!!!

Mutilating body parts, refusing vaccines, teaching them mumbo jumbo, it's ridiculous. I wish every child had their parents, but also an advocate, who would look after the child's best interest regardless of the proclivities of his or her parents and could overrule the parents if need be. (I realize this is impossible to put into practice)

I don't like what this might imply to someone like me, but I will say that I would be an advocate of this idea with regards to what we feed our children. They don't deserve the poison of the standard american diet that most of them receive.

Not an educated view, the educated view is the recommended schedule, you know that recommendation by MDs, those people actually educated.  And no, there is no actual research to suggest spreading them out is a good idea unless the child is immuno-compermised.  And no, nothing you said here is at all scientific. 

[deborah]

Gin1984,
Please explain in even more simple layman's terms. I have no medical background and am relaying what I recall our Dr. saying. I do have record showing the cultured pox was herpes zoster (had forgotten the name). Baby was home with me, older sibling was in preschool with 100% vaccination rate (only 7 kids). No known exposure except from vaccine. But, if I understand what you're saying, he couldn't have developed shingles from the vaccine, then what happened? Did the vaccine not have time to protect him and he was exposed somewhere else? If there was some unknown exposure, why didn't he develop chicken pox? Why shingles? This really confuses me. To be honest, I rarely share the story becUse I don't want to give anyone any negative ideas about vaccination.

Simple Laymans Terms - To get shingles you must have already had chicken pox - could be weeks before, could be years before. The chicken pox vaccine can (but doesn't usually) make the body think it has had chicken pox. People who have had the vaccine are much less likely to get shingles later on than people who have had chicken pox. People can have chicken pox without knowing they have had it. It is possible that the baby had a form of chicken pox before the vaccination, and thus developed shingles.

edited: replaced measles with chicken pox - my bad

[deborah]

After reading many of the previous posts, it seems like any true non-vaccinator is unlikely to offer their opinions to a pack of wolves. With our first child, we followed the educated method of pick-and-choose or delay when possible. We made sure to read about each vaccine before the appointment so not to be cornered by an educated doctor. Most of the literature we read was to spread them out, if possible, to avoid compounding side effects. Also, while linked anecdotally or in reality, vaccines are administered laced with natural products such as peanut oil. While correlation may not be reason for causation, a human body building immunities to diseases laced with peanut oil that inadvertently produces antibodies for peanut oil triggering unnecessary food allergies does not seem improbable.

http://www.infowars.com/peanut-oil-in-vaccines-behind-widespread-peanut-allergy-epidemic/
http://www.naturalnews.com/039192_peanut_oil_vaccines_allergies.html
http://www.offthegridnews.com/2013/03/14/the-shocking-link-between-peanut-allergies-and-vaccines/
http://www.smartvax.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=73:vaccine-induced-allergies
http://www.thedoctorwithin.com/allergies/vaccines-and-the-peanut-allergy-epidemic/
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/02/03/as-peanut-allergies-rise-trying-to-determine-a-cause/?_r=0

I did not read all of the articles linked above, but you can google it for yourselves. There are both pros, cons, and unknowns to some vaccinations. As for whatever Guardasil was offering young girls a few years back for HPV--don't even get me started. That was more like a Sucka Consumer ploy.

Call me crazy, but I'm going to take the scientific approach of caution with respect to the data, or lack thereof. We also seek alternative means to vaccination if peanut oil is the main ingredient. FWIW, our child did have alarming lethargy and fever from a couple of the vaccines we did get. I wasn't really scared about it, knowing that he was likely safer in the long run, but it was unpleasant at the time to say the least.

Okay, so I've asked for it, bring on the hate. (Will the hate be worse if I mention I'm religious even if that had no bearing on my choosing to educate myself on what is injected into my son? Do I gain/lose respect for choosing not to put my son the through painful mutilation of circumcision?)

I hate how parents have virtually unlimited rights with their offspring. You do not own your children, you are their *guardian*!!!

Mutilating body parts, refusing vaccines, teaching them mumbo jumbo, it's ridiculous. I wish every child had their parents, but also an advocate, who would look after the child's best interest regardless of the proclivities of his or her parents and could overrule the parents if need be. (I realize this is impossible to put into practice)

I don't like what this might imply to someone like me, but I will say that I would be an advocate of this idea with regards to what we feed our children. They don't deserve the poison of the standard american diet that most of them receive.

Not an educated view, the educated view is the recommended schedule, you know that recommendation by MDs, those people actually educated.  And no, there is no actual research to suggest spreading them out is a good idea unless the child is immuno-compermised.  And no, nothing you said here is at all scientific. 

This is exactly what I was talking about when I said that "Doing your own research" is often just a method for allowing other fanatics on the internet to overrule common sense.

[Gin1984]

Gin1984,
Please explain in even more simple layman's terms. I have no medical background and am relaying what I recall our Dr. saying. I do have record showing the cultured pox was herpes zoster (had forgotten the name). Baby was home with me, older sibling was in preschool with 100% vaccination rate (only 7 kids). No known exposure except from vaccine. But, if I understand what you're saying, he couldn't have developed shingles from the vaccine, then what happened? Did the vaccine not have time to protect him and he was exposed somewhere else? If there was some unknown exposure, why didn't he develop chicken pox? Why shingles? This really confuses me. To be honest, I rarely share the story becUse I don't want to give anyone any negative ideas about vaccination.

Simple Laymans Terms - To get shingles you must have already had measles - could be weeks before, could be years before. The measles vaccine can (but doesn't usually) make the body think it has had measles. People who have had the vaccine are much less likely to get shingles later on than people who have had measles. People can have measles without knowing they have had it. It is possible that the baby had a form of measles before the vaccination, and thus developed shingles.

Not measles, chicken pox.

[Knapptyme]

Not an educated view, the educated view is the recommended schedule, you know that recommendation by MDs, those people actually educated.  And no, there is no actual research to suggest spreading them out is a good idea unless the child is immuno-compermised.  And no, nothing you said here is at all scientific.

And here it comes.

I realize your point. The doctors, the CDC, and vaccine companies are more educated on the recommended schedule. As I mentioned more specifically, a scientific approach to the growing peanut allergies and the obvious use of peanut oil in some vaccines seems oddly correlative. The good scientific thing to do would be to ask a question (Step 1). Next we would need to set up an experiment to gather data followed by gathering data and performing analysis of that data. I think I addressed the point of asking that question and not outright dismissal of doctor recommendations.

If my doctor recommends the flu shot, should I get that? I'm not inclined to think so based on the research behind the effectiveness of seasonal flu shots, multiple strains, and the non-deadly affects of the flu on an otherwise healthy individual. Thus, I might not always be inclined to blindly follow the educated ones' advice.

This is exactly what I was talking about when I said that "Doing your own research" is often just a method for allowing other fanatics on the internet to overrule common sense.

The assumption that "doing your own research" is only an internet search seems a little misleading and frustratingly condescending. Doing research on my own can and does include asking the very doctors that are on board with the recommended schedule as well as other countries' vaccination schedules. If my quick links earlier seemed to be resourced from the internet as the reason for the assumption, that is partially on me.

Keep bringing the hate if it seems deserved.

[deborah]

No hate, just remember the time a little kid I knew got tetanus - completely preventable - and sick he was and how long he was sick for - I seem to remember a year. A good friend of mine is one of the foremost people who develop vaccines in Australia. It is just so frustrating.

[Knapptyme]

My partner was not vaccinated and is still allergic to peanuts. It's faulty logic at best.

The risk of having a non neurotypical child or a child with food allergies is truly more terrifying to you than widespread morbidity and mortality from an entirely preventable illness?

In an otherwise relatively healthy environment, peanut allergies are more deadly. So I agree with investigating the latter half of widespread morbidity and mortality in regards to that. I understand there are exceptions and not to make the case from them. I would argue it's at least faulty logic not to question the correlation.

Again, for those following along, we delayed most immunizations to see what affects they would have on our child, if any. We also plowed ahead with what were recommended as the most vital. (See info about Dr. Sears' methods mentioned earlier. I am aware that there are pros and mostly cons to his suggested delayed schedule without backing from research.)

[bacchi]

In an otherwise relatively healthy environment, peanut allergies are more deadly. So I agree with investigating the latter half of widespread morbidity and mortality in regards to that. I understand there are exceptions and not to make the case from them. I would argue it's at least faulty logic not to question the correlation.

Uh, you do realize that vaccines don't contain any peanut oil? As in, zip, zilch, nada. It's illegal in the US. If you're in Europe, some vaccines contain fish oil.

[clifp]

Actually it is the most educated and most uneducated that forgo vaccines.   There are significant side effects in about 1 in 10000 children with vaccines.  So the personal math is in favor of skipping many vaccines.  Virtually no one spreads polio and measles are almost nonexistent in the US.  I was very reluctant to give our children vaccines and I ran a public health clinic for 5 years.      I'm a nonreligious, climate aware person.

I am curious the source for the 1 in 10,000 figure.  I was listening to a CDC head on the Newshour and he put the number of at 1 in 500,000. A quick google finds a CDC report at 1 in 600,000.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00046738.htm

I liked Melinda Gates comments on vaccines recently,the anti vaccine crowd should come to Africa where mothers will walk two days in scorching temperature to get vaccines, cause they've seen the impact of the diseases.

[Cpa Cat]

I did not read all of the articles linked above, but you can google it for yourselves. There are both pros, cons, and unknowns to some vaccinations. As for whatever Guardasil was offering young girls a few years back for HPV--don't even get me started. That was more like a Sucka Consumer ploy.

Can you please explain this?

I know a couple of women who ended up with cervical cancer after contracting HPV. They didn't think it was awesome. They would have been grateful if their parents had had them vaccinated for HPV (not an option during their childhoods). HPV is linked to several other kinds of cancer, as well.

I am genuinely curious, so because tone is hard to convey in a post responding to a sensitive topic on an internet forum, I will add this smiley face: :)

[justajane]

In an otherwise relatively healthy environment, peanut allergies are more deadly. So I agree with investigating the latter half of widespread morbidity and mortality in regards to that. I understand there are exceptions and not to make the case from them. I would argue it's at least faulty logic not to question the correlation.

Again, for those following along, we delayed most immunizations to see what affects they would have on our child, if any. We also plowed ahead with what were recommended as the most vital. (See info about Dr. Sears' methods mentioned earlier. I am aware that there are pros and mostly cons to his suggested delayed schedule without backing from research.)

You do realize that this "otherwise relatively healthy environment" that your children experience is largely because of the vaccines that you now question?

Having said that, Dr. Sears schedule is not benign but it is not as dangerous as others. The Sears schedule has children still start the vaccines at 2 months. Others push the start of vaccines to 2 years, which IMO is unconscionable, since the youngest are often the most vulnerable to the most harmful effects of the diseases. Because you cite Sears and appear to be a reasonable (albeit rather misinformed on the peanut thing) person, I would encourage you to not spend time defending the rest of the anti-vaxx crowd. Don't put yourself in their shoes and try to relate to their concerns. Frankly there's a whole lotta of crazy that you don't want to be lumped in to with that crowd.

I didn't even need to read your sources to know that they are not going to convince the discerning crowd here. They  have to be from reputable peer reviewed journals.

And no, people here are not a judgmental "pack of wolves" as you so put it. This isn't an abstract discussion in which everyone can have their opinion and then we can say "different strokes for different folks." This isn't about budgetary choices and whether or not someone deserves a facepunch or not. When these diseases don't kill or irrevocably change children, they make them suffer terribly and needlessly.

+1 to cthoops about the flu vaccine.
I had the Flu with a capital "F" in the early 2000s. I was an otherwise healthy early twenties woman who was sidelined for a month. I developed severe bronchitis and eventually bruised a rib from all the violent coughing. I've gotten the flu shot ever since and never gotten the flu again......until this year when my whole family of five got the dreaded Influenza A. But the medical establishment has been entirely transparent about how the flu "drifted" and wasn't covered by the vaccine. I'll take a decade of not getting it. Plus the flu wasn't nearly as bad for me this time around, which I imagine I can credit to having gotten the flu shot.

[Cpa Cat]

I had the Flu with a capital "F" in the early 2000s. I was an otherwise healthy early twenties woman who was sidelined for a month. I developed severe bronchitis and eventually bruised a rib from all the violent coughing. I've gotten the flu shot ever since and never gotten the flu again......until this year when my whole family of five got the dreaded Influenza A. But the medical establishment has been entirely transparent about how the flu "drifted" and wasn't covered by the vaccine. I'll take a decade of not getting it. Plus the flu wasn't nearly as bad for me this time around, which I imagine I can credit to having gotten the flu shot.

They offered the flu shot for free during work hours at our office this year. A coworker said to me, "I'm not going to get it. I read that it's only 25% effective." Who cares? If you're lying in bed, sick with the flu and someone comes up to you with a needle and says, "There's a 25% chance that this shot will immediately make you better, a 50% chance that it will help you recover more quickly, but a 25% chance that it will have absolutely no effect." Who would say no to that?? And yet that is what people are saying no to when they refuse the flu shot.

Now, I'll admit that I don't actively seek out the flu shot (and I have had the flu before). But when I'm sitting there and it's on offer with a cost of 60 seconds of my time, why would I not take it?

I think one of the strongest points in favor of the flu shot is that insurance companies cover 100% of the cost. Insurance companies aren't out to lose money. If the cost-benefit of the flu shot didn't work out in their favor, they wouldn't put it in that 100% category.

But I don't know. It doesn't even cross my mind not to get vaccines. Maybe Health Canada brainwashed me. I do recall getting lined up in school for Hep-B, singing this awesome song they taught us, "Hep-B is a real bad rap!" Maybe they just need jingles for all the vaccines.

[neophyte]

Because this hasn't been posted yet: http://howdovaccinescauseautism.com/

[Emilyngh]

I had the Flu with a capital "F" in the early 2000s. I was an otherwise healthy early twenties woman who was sidelined for a month. I developed severe bronchitis and eventually bruised a rib from all the violent coughing. I've gotten the flu shot ever since and never gotten the flu again......until this year when my whole family of five got the dreaded Influenza A. But the medical establishment has been entirely transparent about how the flu "drifted" and wasn't covered by the vaccine. I'll take a decade of not getting it. Plus the flu wasn't nearly as bad for me this time around, which I imagine I can credit to having gotten the flu shot.

They offered the flu shot for free during work hours at our office this year. A coworker said to me, "I'm not going to get it. I read that it's only 25% effective." Who cares? If you're lying in bed, sick with the flu and someone comes up to you with a needle and says, "There's a 25% chance that this shot will immediately make you better, a 50% chance that it will help you recover more quickly, but a 25% chance that it will have absolutely no effect." Who would say no to that?? And yet that is what people are saying no to when they refuse the flu shot.

Now, I'll admit that I don't actively seek out the flu shot (and I have had the flu before). But when I'm sitting there and it's on offer with a cost of 60 seconds of my time, why would I not take it?

I think one of the strongest points in favor of the flu shot is that insurance companies cover 100% of the cost. Insurance companies aren't out to lose money. If the cost-benefit of the flu shot didn't work out in their favor, they wouldn't put it in that 100% category.

Yup.   I first got the flu shot when pregnant with DD 4 years ago.   And then again the following year because DD was only a couple of months old that winter and too young to get a shot, so it was recommended that both of her parents get it.   And you know what I discovered?   Not getting the flu is awesome.

Prior to that I was in the "getting the flu is natural, why get a flu shot?" camp.   Until I experienced not getting the flu (and the bronchitis that then often follows for me) for two years and saw how much better it is than getting the flu.   Since then, every fall DD, Dh and I have gone and gotten a flu shot.   And last year my teen-aged stepdaughter (who hadn't been going with us for the shot) got the flu, and after paying $180 out of pocket for tamiflu for her, and her seeing how miserable the real flu is, she came with us this fall as well.

Looking back, I find it odd that anyone would take the increased risk of getting the flu considering that a significant diminished risk is available for the cost of a 15 minute trip to any CVS, Riteaid, grocery store pharmacy, etc and for free with most insurance plans.