Are women done with men?

[MustacheAndaHalf]

Well, I was trying to get men to feel what life would be like if a market segment did not cater to them, like so much of the market ignores women.  That didn't go well. Sigh.

In my darker moments I feel that some men work hard to be oblivious.  This is one of them.

Then don't lie to make your points.  I tried to be polite in my first reply, but you persisted in claiming shoe and clothing sizes for American men are not available in Asia, which is false.

For men in North America I suggest the thought experiment of living in an Asian country where everyone is smaller.   No men's clothing,  shoes, etc. in your size, you are too big.  Suddenly life is more difficult.

I thought it was pretty self-evident that she wasn't saying that those sizes don't exist, but that the experience of the larger American male will often be to walk into a store and not have it cater to them as the target market.

Except she literally said that, as I already quoted repeatedly:

For men in North America I suggest the thought experiment of living in an Asian country where everyone is smaller.   No men's clothing,  shoes, etc. in your size, you are too big.  Suddenly life is more difficult.

Yes, I understand that she said that. I thought is was very self-evident that she meant that men would go into stores that would have no options for them, the same way I described going into stores that had no options for me.

I think it's very obvious that options are available in those countries somewhere, but that in a lot of stores there would be "no" options available. I thought it was very self evident that she wasn't saying that it's impossible to find the right size, just that it becomes more difficult.

Just like it's very possible to find a lot of smaller tools for women's hand sizes, it's just a lot more difficult than a dude with big hands sauntering into Home Depot and buying whatever is on sale and knowing it will work for them.

When you are raised as the dominant group that is almost universally marketed to, it's difficult to understand what the minority experience is like. That's what she was saying and, again, as much as you quote her, I still think that was abundantly clear.

What is your evidence what "a lot of stores" in Asia have no sizes for western men?

Because speculating on what she said - and assuming it is true - doesn't show if she is wrong or not.  It just shows that, without evidence, you will take her side and support her view.  Have you shopped for men's clothing in Asia?

No, but I have multiple family members who spend a lot of time in Asian countries for business and report on how it can be very difficult in some regions to buy clothes, shoes in particular, especially if not in a major urban center. What she said aligned with what I have heard from big white men who have lived or spent a lot of time in Asian countries, so I didn't think to assume that she "lying."

You're right, I was too harsh when I accused RetireAt63 of lying.  I apologize, that was rude.

I have not shopped for men's clothes in rural Asia, so perhaps her example could be changed to that.
"No men's clothing,  shoes, etc. in your size, you are too big."

[Metalcat]

I guess now would be a bad time to comment on the fact that women have an excellent selection of shampoos and conditioners?

And cool clothes.   When I was in rock and roll bands I'd shop in the women's sections of thrift shops.

Yep, we have no shortage of options for things to make us look prettier. We can't get life saving medications, surgeries, or medical devices that have been sufficiently studied for their impacts on women, but we can get any style of joint-damaging stiletto shoe and cancinogenic hair dye that you could possibly imagine.

[twinstudy]

Well, I was trying to get men to feel what life would be like if a market segment did not cater to them, like so much of the market ignores women.  That didn't go well. Sigh.

In my darker moments I feel that some men work hard to be oblivious.  This is one of them.

I understand what you were trying to achieve. I'm a man, but a migrant one who was born in a non-English speaking country, so I have some understanding of having to cater to the dominant norm.

Sometimes I wonder whether it is possible for straight white American men to really perceive how easy life is for them. I'm not saying life isn't easy for others, but you're playing at a massive advantage if you are in the dominant, hegemonic culture/gender. No one should be blamed for being in such a position, but I do find it hilarious how quickly some people bleat when their dominance is taken away: when affirmative action gives migrants and people of colour a fair go in employment, or when globalisation means that smart foreigners can start taking your job if you don't up skill and educate yourself. Or, of course, when "feminism" means that women have to be treated with respect in the workplace.

To me, it's an absolutely glorious sight to see. The bleating of the complacent masses.

The danger in this however lies in the reactionary effects, such as nationalism, deepened racism, anti-immigration policies, and so on. The masses do not go down bleating…they blaze.

Martin Luther King addressed this in talking about white backlash following the passage of major civil rights legislation that left many blacks worse off than before. And MAGA can certainly be seen as a liberating reaction to Obama. The rise of the far right in Europe is analogous. None of it is glorious.

The relationship options for men and women now seem to be couched in assessments of personal value: “What does commitment get me that I can’t get without it, or without paying too high a price?” It’s the wrong question, but we’re in changing times so.

Societies change and those on top of some aspects of life end up with less. Most of the time however, I’m just not sure where the winners are.

The winners are the women, minorities, migrants and others who get good jobs that they deserve, because they are no longer being unjustly held back.

Yes, this will lead to some bleating. There are laws to make sure the reactionary effects don't go too far. Nationalism, etc, rises up from time to time and needs to be purged like every other evil that pops up.

[GuitarStv]

I am an average sized woman eho can buy clothes in a multipack at costco and yet the seatbelts and headrests in the car fit him better than they fit me. I can't lean back on the seat without my chin being in my chest unless I stick a pillow behind my back, and the seatbelt cuts across my neck on the lowest setting.  I am 5'4", not super short.

Try being 6'+ and sitting on an airplane in economy class.  :P

[reeshau]

I am an average sized woman eho can buy clothes in a multipack at costco and yet the seatbelts and headrests in the car fit him better than they fit me. I can't lean back on the seat without my chin being in my chest unless I stick a pillow behind my back, and the seatbelt cuts across my neck on the lowest setting.  I am 5'4", not super short.

Car headrests are that way to counter whiplash.  But my 5'4" wife asks me to reverse the headrest on any car we buy or rent, so she can sit comfortably.

The only one she didn't have to do that with was a 2017 or older Citroen Grand Picasso.  We didn't like that car, but did like the 2018 model.  We bought one of the old headrests to swap out.  I'm sorry we left that in Ireland.

[Ron Scott]

Well, I was trying to get men to feel what life would be like if a market segment did not cater to them, like so much of the market ignores women.  That didn't go well. Sigh.

In my darker moments I feel that some men work hard to be oblivious.  This is one of them.

I understand what you were trying to achieve. I'm a man, but a migrant one who was born in a non-English speaking country, so I have some understanding of having to cater to the dominant norm.

Sometimes I wonder whether it is possible for straight white American men to really perceive how easy life is for them. I'm not saying life isn't easy for others, but you're playing at a massive advantage if you are in the dominant, hegemonic culture/gender. No one should be blamed for being in such a position, but I do find it hilarious how quickly some people bleat when their dominance is taken away: when affirmative action gives migrants and people of colour a fair go in employment, or when globalisation means that smart foreigners can start taking your job if you don't up skill and educate yourself. Or, of course, when "feminism" means that women have to be treated with respect in the workplace.

To me, it's an absolutely glorious sight to see. The bleating of the complacent masses.

The danger in this however lies in the reactionary effects, such as nationalism, deepened racism, anti-immigration policies, and so on. The masses do not go down bleating…they blaze.

Martin Luther King addressed this in talking about white backlash following the passage of major civil rights legislation that left many blacks worse off than before. And MAGA can certainly be seen as a liberating reaction to Obama. The rise of the far right in Europe is analogous. None of it is glorious.

The relationship options for men and women now seem to be couched in assessments of personal value: “What does commitment get me that I can’t get without it, or without paying too high a price?” It’s the wrong question, but we’re in changing times so.

Societies change and those on top of some aspects of life end up with less. Most of the time however, I’m just not sure where the winners are.

If that is the wrong question, what is the right one?

Do my beliefs, expectations, and qualities compliment this person’s in a way that a marriage will make each of us better together than alone?

I pretty much see that as another way of asking the same question:

Am I better off with this person than I am by myself?

For a lot of history, women's answer to this almost HAD to be "yes" because most of them could not fend for themselves in a society that would not let them.

I personally am incredibly thankful that I can choose to not be with anyone unless and until I find someone whose presence makes my life better. And I sure as hell am thankful for that for younger generations of women. (And men, to be sure, but their equations to determine this are likely to be quite different.)

Agree, which is why I phrased my question differently from yours.

[Telecaster]

Yep, we have no shortage of options for things to make us look prettier. We can't get life saving medications, surgeries, or medical devices that have been sufficiently studied for their impacts on women, but we can get any style of joint-damaging stiletto shoe and cancinogenic hair dye that you could possibly imagine.

Please know that both I and @Ron Scott were both being completely tongue-in-cheek. We weren't suggesting those advantages are actually advantages. 

[Metalcat]

Yep, we have no shortage of options for things to make us look prettier. We can't get life saving medications, surgeries, or medical devices that have been sufficiently studied for their impacts on women, but we can get any style of joint-damaging stiletto shoe and cancinogenic hair dye that you could possibly imagine.

Please know that both I and @Ron Scott were both being completely tongue-in-cheek. We weren't suggesting those advantages are actually advantages.

I'm aware.

Anyhoo, on a totally different topic, if anyone wants further evidence of the literal shit women have to deal with, we can always return to one of my favourite topics: men's shit and their insistence that women should really just be okay with it.

So I've marveled for years at the stats that men, despite spending inordinate amounts of time when they do take a shit, are evidently so homophobic that an enormous amount of them are too squirrelly about touching their own anuses that they don't wipe sufficiently AND won't clean it in the shower.

Okay, so we have an enormous amount of the population walking around with fecally rich gluteal clefts. That, to me is just sad, I feel sad for these men that the patriarchy has made basic personal hygiene so challenging.

What I am far more horrified about are the videos that men are making that have enormous amounts of support about how this is what makes men "real men." There's a whole world of videos out there of men trashing women for taking issue with having to wash shit stained underwear. There's even a very famous video of a guy saying that real men full-on shit their paints regularly and women should just happily clean them when they get home.

This guy's video about how grandpa always told him never to drop your undies for a woman who wouldn't clean them if you shit your pants at work was particularly popular. Go generational shit-pants wisdom!

https://www.tiktok.com/@cadenmcguire/video/7372297384241499422

And A LOT of men agree with this.

Speech Prof is a fun influencer who has a series of videos responding to "real men have shitty underwear videos" and I've linked the third of his.

https://www.facebook.com/reel/1724677721679440?mibextid=l2hJJHjNVOBSwHk4

So as women, we are not only expected to handle and wash shit-sodden clothes for men, we're also expected to get intimate with shit-encrusted nether-regions, AND we're not supposed to complain about the ever-present shit, because we should be proud of the evidence of our men being "real men."

I think peak toxic masculinity is walking around with a dirty bum and posting videos on the internet about how that makes you proud to be a man and somehow also making it about shaming women.

I mean that is *chef's kiss* toxic perfection.

Seriously though. What the actual fuck are we doing to poor little boys that they're ending up this way?? Cuz' I'm not cleaning anyone's shit-smeared clothing unless they have a medical condition.

Granted...I haven't done laundry in over a decade, so what the fuck am I even talking about?

[LennStar]

Yeah, can't complain then! lol

I have heard of that stain thing before, but this is more than just a few nuts?????

I mean people have all types of fetishes and I am not judging that, but that does not sound like one. That sounds like... lol, as we Germans could say: Someone has shat into their brain.

[sonofsven]

Yeah, I'm not clicking on any videos about men's crap, but it does remind me of my "brilliant" (sic) idea to market brown underwear to men: "Skidders".

[RetiredAt63]

I think peak toxic masculinity is walking around with a dirty bum and posting videos on the internet about how that makes you proud to be a man and somehow also making it about shaming women.

I mean that is *chef's kiss* toxic perfection.

Seriously though. What the actual fuck are we doing to poor little boys that they're ending up this way?? Cuz' I'm not cleaning anyone's shit-smeared clothing unless they have a medical condition.

Granted...I haven't done laundry in over a decade, so what the fuck am I even talking about?

My Dad, born in the 1910s and on the first convoy through the Mediterranean in WWII, would be absolutely horrified about this.

This isn't masculinity, it is being very little boys.  And expecting women to clean up after them is expecting them to be mommies, not wives.


Speech Prof loves his wife and isn't ashamed to say so.  And his skewering of these babies is so good.  Melanie Hamlett calls them "King Babies" which is pretty accurate.

[RetiredAt63]

Yeah, I'm not clicking on any videos about men's crap, but it does remind me of my "brilliant" (sic) idea to market brown underwear to men: "Skidders".

They just need a men's version of panty liners.  Problem solved for those with medical conditions (IBS can be brutal).  For those who just don't care - well, shunning used to do wonders.

[sonofsven]

Yeah, I'm not clicking on any videos about men's crap, but it does remind me of my "brilliant" (sic) idea to market brown underwear to men: "Skidders".

They just need a men's version of panty liners.  Problem solved for those with medical conditions (IBS can be brutal).  For those who just don't care - well, shunning used to do wonders.

We'll call them "Patriot Liners"; when you're too busy defending freedom to clean yourself properly.

[GuitarStv]

Yep, we have no shortage of options for things to make us look prettier. We can't get life saving medications, surgeries, or medical devices that have been sufficiently studied for their impacts on women, but we can get any style of joint-damaging stiletto shoe and cancinogenic hair dye that you could possibly imagine.

Please know that both I and @Ron Scott were both being completely tongue-in-cheek. We weren't suggesting those advantages are actually advantages.

I'm aware.

Anyhoo, on a totally different topic, if anyone wants further evidence of the literal shit women have to deal with, we can always return to one of my favourite topics: men's shit and their insistence that women should really just be okay with it.

So I've marveled for years at the stats that men, despite spending inordinate amounts of time when they do take a shit, are evidently so homophobic that an enormous amount of them are too squirrelly about touching their own anuses that they don't wipe sufficiently AND won't clean it in the shower.

Okay, so we have an enormous amount of the population walking around with fecally rich gluteal clefts. That, to me is just sad, I feel sad for these men that the patriarchy has made basic personal hygiene so challenging.

What I am far more horrified about are the videos that men are making that have enormous amounts of support about how this is what makes men "real men." There's a whole world of videos out there of men trashing women for taking issue with having to wash shit stained underwear. There's even a very famous video of a guy saying that real men full-on shit their paints regularly and women should just happily clean them when they get home.

This guy's video about how grandpa always told him never to drop your undies for a woman who wouldn't clean them if you shit your pants at work was particularly popular. Go generational shit-pants wisdom!

https://www.tiktok.com/@cadenmcguire/video/7372297384241499422

And A LOT of men agree with this.

Speech Prof is a fun influencer who has a series of videos responding to "real men have shitty underwear videos" and I've linked the third of his.

https://www.facebook.com/reel/1724677721679440?mibextid=l2hJJHjNVOBSwHk4

So as women, we are not only expected to handle and wash shit-sodden clothes for men, we're also expected to get intimate with shit-encrusted nether-regions, AND we're not supposed to complain about the ever-present shit, because we should be proud of the evidence of our men being "real men."

I think peak toxic masculinity is walking around with a dirty bum and posting videos on the internet about how that makes you proud to be a man and somehow also making it about shaming women.

I mean that is *chef's kiss* toxic perfection.

Seriously though. What the actual fuck are we doing to poor little boys that they're ending up this way?? Cuz' I'm not cleaning anyone's shit-smeared clothing unless they have a medical condition.

Granted...I haven't done laundry in over a decade, so what the fuck am I even talking about?

:O

Where are you finding this stuff?  This can't be a real thing.




#ThisIsWhyWeNeedBidetsInsteadOfToiletPaper

[RetiredAt63]

Yep, we have no shortage of options for things to make us look prettier. We can't get life saving medications, surgeries, or medical devices that have been sufficiently studied for their impacts on women, but we can get any style of joint-damaging stiletto shoe and cancinogenic hair dye that you could possibly imagine.

Please know that both I and @Ron Scott were both being completely tongue-in-cheek. We weren't suggesting those advantages are actually advantages.

I'm aware.

Anyhoo, on a totally different topic, if anyone wants further evidence of the literal shit women have to deal with, we can always return to one of my favourite topics: men's shit and their insistence that women should really just be okay with it.

So I've marveled for years at the stats that men, despite spending inordinate amounts of time when they do take a shit, are evidently so homophobic that an enormous amount of them are too squirrelly about touching their own anuses that they don't wipe sufficiently AND won't clean it in the shower.

Okay, so we have an enormous amount of the population walking around with fecally rich gluteal clefts. That, to me is just sad, I feel sad for these men that the patriarchy has made basic personal hygiene so challenging.

What I am far more horrified about are the videos that men are making that have enormous amounts of support about how this is what makes men "real men." There's a whole world of videos out there of men trashing women for taking issue with having to wash shit stained underwear. There's even a very famous video of a guy saying that real men full-on shit their paints regularly and women should just happily clean them when they get home.

This guy's video about how grandpa always told him never to drop your undies for a woman who wouldn't clean them if you shit your pants at work was particularly popular. Go generational shit-pants wisdom!

https://www.tiktok.com/@cadenmcguire/video/7372297384241499422

And A LOT of men agree with this.

Speech Prof is a fun influencer who has a series of videos responding to "real men have shitty underwear videos" and I've linked the third of his.

https://www.facebook.com/reel/1724677721679440?mibextid=l2hJJHjNVOBSwHk4

So as women, we are not only expected to handle and wash shit-sodden clothes for men, we're also expected to get intimate with shit-encrusted nether-regions, AND we're not supposed to complain about the ever-present shit, because we should be proud of the evidence of our men being "real men."

I think peak toxic masculinity is walking around with a dirty bum and posting videos on the internet about how that makes you proud to be a man and somehow also making it about shaming women.

I mean that is *chef's kiss* toxic perfection.

Seriously though. What the actual fuck are we doing to poor little boys that they're ending up this way?? Cuz' I'm not cleaning anyone's shit-smeared clothing unless they have a medical condition.

Granted...I haven't done laundry in over a decade, so what the fuck am I even talking about?

:O

Where are you finding this stuff?  This can't be a real thing.




#ThisIsWhyWeNeedBidetsInsteadOfToiletPaper

It's out there. Just cruise YouTube and let it take you wherever, and it will surface.

[twinstudy]

Yeah, can't complain then! lol

I have heard of that stain thing before, but this is more than just a few nuts?????

I mean people have all types of fetishes and I am not judging that, but that does not sound like one. That sounds like... lol, as we Germans could say: Someone has shat into their brain.

These sort of men, I will add to my mental collection of things which cannot possibly exist (along with Trump voters, people who genuinely believe in multi-level marketing schemes, people who take TikTok influencers seriously, Andrew Tate fans and people who think they can beat the odds at a casino without cheating or card counting).

[RetiredAt63]

#ThisIsWhyWeNeedBidetsInsteadOfToiletPaper

Do you think these guys would use a bidet?  That is even more sissy than proper use of TP.

[Morning Glory]

Yeah, can't complain then! lol

I have heard of that stain thing before, but this is more than just a few nuts?????

I mean people have all types of fetishes and I am not judging that, but that does not sound like one. That sounds like... lol, as we Germans could say: Someone has shat into their brain.

These sort of men, I will add to my mental collection of things which cannot possibly exist (along with Trump voters, people who genuinely believe in multi-level marketing schemes, people who take TikTok influencers seriously, Andrew Tate fans and people who think they can beat the odds at a casino without cheating or card counting).

I've seen the reddit threads of women asking if they should break up over this, but never the men actually bragging about it.

[Metalcat]

:O

Where are you finding this stuff?  This can't be a real thing.




#ThisIsWhyWeNeedBidetsInsteadOfToiletPaper

Men refusing to clean their own asses has been a very, very well known issue for a very, very long time.

Men bragging about skid marks as "manly" is new as far as I can tell.

It popped up for me because Speech Prof is a hilarious male feminist who makes a ton of content responding to toxic masculinity trends. So when shit (pun intended) like men bragging about skid marks goes viral, he gets tagged and makes response videos.

I've seen way more really scary toxic "dating coach" shit thanks to him, and it really helps me contextualize WTF my younger clients are talking about.

[GuitarStv]

#ThisIsWhyWeNeedBidetsInsteadOfToiletPaper

Do you think these guys would use a bidet?  That is even more sissy than proper use of TP.

Nah, it just hasn't been marketed properly.

A prissy sounding 'bidet' might not sell . . . but a Freedom Power 6000 Ass Blaster Hydraulic Sanitizer (With three optional grab bars, six cleaning modes ranging from 'wussy sprinkle' to 'scour and strip', eleven rotating heads, comes in your choice of chrome, black, or worn copper, with built-in speaker that blasts from a catalogue of appropriate songs . . . Johnny Cash's 'Ring of Fire', Van Morrison's 'Brown Eyed Girl', Lynyrd Skynyrd's 'That Smell', Tom Petty's 'Freefallin', Lionel Richie's 'Stuck On You', etc.)

The new FREEDOM POWER ASS BLASTER - ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO NEED IT . . . or is that soft wimpy toilet paper more your speed?

[RetiredAt63]

#ThisIsWhyWeNeedBidetsInsteadOfToiletPaper

Do you think these guys would use a bidet?  That is even more sissy than proper use of TP.

Nah, it just hasn't been marketed properly.

A prissy sounding 'bidet' might not sell . . . but a Freedom Power 6000 Ass Blaster Hydraulic Sanitizer (With three optional grab bars, six cleaning modes ranging from 'wussy sprinkle' to 'scour and strip', eleven rotating heads, comes in your choice of chrome, black, or worn copper, with built-in speaker that blasts from a catalogue of appropriate songs . . . Johnny Cash's 'Ring of Fire', Van Morrison's 'Brown Eyed Girl', Lynyrd Skynyrd's 'That Smell', Tom Petty's 'Freefallin', Lionel Richie's 'Stuck On You', etc.)

The new FREEDOM POWER ASS BLASTER - ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO NEED IT . . . or is that soft wimpy toilet paper more your speed?

LOL!!!!

You just found a side hustle.     ;-)

[partgypsy]

#ThisIsWhyWeNeedBidetsInsteadOfToiletPaper

Do you think these guys would use a bidet?  That is even more sissy than proper use of TP.

Nah, it just hasn't been marketed properly.

A prissy sounding 'bidet' might not sell . . . but a Freedom Power 6000 Ass Blaster Hydraulic Sanitizer (With three optional grab bars, six cleaning modes ranging from 'wussy sprinkle' to 'scour and strip', eleven rotating heads, comes in your choice of chrome, black, or worn copper, with built-in speaker that blasts from a catalogue of appropriate songs . . . Johnny Cash's 'Ring of Fire', Van Morrison's 'Brown Eyed Girl', Lynyrd Skynyrd's 'That Smell', Tom Petty's 'Freefallin', Lionel Richie's 'Stuck On You', etc.)

The new FREEDOM POWER ASS BLASTER - ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO NEED IT . . . or is that soft wimpy toilet paper more your speed?

. Yess!!  Market this!

[Samuel]

While I have no doubt there are a lot of gross idiot dudes out there some amount of the recent focus on proudly dirty bums has to also be attributable to 1) people willing to say literally anything into a camera for a few clicks and 2) the favorite right wing past time of trolling the "woke" (seeing this earnestly discussed in terms of "toxic masculinity" is something they'll happily lean in to because they find it funny).

Just a reminder that the internet is not representative of reality. Once something becomes a meme it invites all sorts of shenanigans.

[turketron]

It popped up for me because Speech Prof is a hilarious male feminist who makes a ton of content responding to toxic masculinity trends. So when shit (pun intended) like men bragging about skid marks goes viral, he gets tagged and makes response videos.

Thanks for this (not the content itself, that's gross AF), I hadn't heard of this guy before but it looks like he has some great content. I don't use tiktok or IG but I'm giving him a follow on youtube! 

[tygertygertyger]

Yeah... yesterday I saw a bumper sticker (on a truck, naturally) that said:

Unvaccinated Sperm
3,500 a load

And my partner and I had a spirited conversation about who this bumper sticker was meant to attract... a nice conservative lady looking to start a family? (But the tone isn't exactly family man...) Other conservative guys?

Unclear. Really unclear.

[LennStar]

#ThisIsWhyWeNeedBidetsInsteadOfToiletPaper

Do you think these guys would use a bidet?  That is even more sissy than proper use of TP.

Nah, it just hasn't been marketed properly.

A prissy sounding 'bidet' might not sell . . . but a Freedom Power 6000 Ass Blaster Hydraulic Sanitizer (With three optional grab bars, six cleaning modes ranging from 'wussy sprinkle' to 'scour and strip', eleven rotating heads, comes in your choice of chrome, black, or worn copper, with built-in speaker that blasts from a catalogue of appropriate songs . . . Johnny Cash's 'Ring of Fire', Van Morrison's 'Brown Eyed Girl', Lynyrd Skynyrd's 'That Smell', Tom Petty's 'Freefallin', Lionel Richie's 'Stuck On You', etc.)

The new FREEDOM POWER ASS BLASTER - ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO NEED IT . . . or is that soft wimpy toilet paper more your speed?

You should send that to Toto's American devision. I would would not shed a tear if they get mroe business. Well, laughing tears maybe.

[twinstudy]

While I have no doubt there are a lot of gross idiot dudes out there some amount of the recent focus on proudly dirty bums has to also be attributable to 1) people willing to say literally anything into a camera for a few clicks and 2) the favorite right wing past time of trolling the "woke" (seeing this earnestly discussed in terms of "toxic masculinity" is something they'll happily lean in to because they find it funny).

Just a reminder that the internet is not representative of reality. Once something becomes a meme it invites all sorts of shenanigans.

Yeah I take most of these things with a grain of salt. No one can be as stupid as instagram/tiktok makes people out to be.

[GuitarStv]

While I have no doubt there are a lot of gross idiot dudes out there some amount of the recent focus on proudly dirty bums has to also be attributable to 1) people willing to say literally anything into a camera for a few clicks and 2) the favorite right wing past time of trolling the "woke" (seeing this earnestly discussed in terms of "toxic masculinity" is something they'll happily lean in to because they find it funny).

Just a reminder that the internet is not representative of reality. Once something becomes a meme it invites all sorts of shenanigans.

Yeah, the more I think about it the less I can believe that it's real.  All these guys walking around with shitty butts (besides smelling pretty bad all the time) would also be dealing with seriously damaging levels of butt-rash.  And I've changed enough poopy diapers to know that that is no fun at all.

[Metalcat]

While I have no doubt there are a lot of gross idiot dudes out there some amount of the recent focus on proudly dirty bums has to also be attributable to 1) people willing to say literally anything into a camera for a few clicks and 2) the favorite right wing past time of trolling the "woke" (seeing this earnestly discussed in terms of "toxic masculinity" is something they'll happily lean in to because they find it funny).

Just a reminder that the internet is not representative of reality. Once something becomes a meme it invites all sorts of shenanigans.

Agreed, if the humour of my posting it wasn't obvious, then I fucked up the post.

I thought the multiple creative descriptors for shit-pants made it self-explanatory that I was leaning into the absurdist humour of the whole thing, but I guess not...

Skid marks and men refusing to clean their butts and women having to handle their shit-smeared laundry is a very real, very unpleasant reality for boat loads of ladies out there, but I was having a laugh about the "real men" angle of it. I think it's pretty obvious that the bulk of men are not proud of their skid marks, but there's also enough truth in there that even it becoming a meme should give us all a confused-dog-head-tilt for a second.

It does betray the very real issue that we have seen in this very thread of "be careful complaining" because it will make men feel bad and they'll turn it on you as being the problem for complaining in the first place.

Don't embarrass the men about their poo-pants.

@GuitarStv really should try marketing bidets to men though, although the hose kind are already called a "bum gun" instead of a bidet.

[Metalcat]

While I have no doubt there are a lot of gross idiot dudes out there some amount of the recent focus on proudly dirty bums has to also be attributable to 1) people willing to say literally anything into a camera for a few clicks and 2) the favorite right wing past time of trolling the "woke" (seeing this earnestly discussed in terms of "toxic masculinity" is something they'll happily lean in to because they find it funny).

Just a reminder that the internet is not representative of reality. Once something becomes a meme it invites all sorts of shenanigans.

Yeah, the more I think about it the less I can believe that it's real.  All these guys walking around with shitty butts (besides smelling pretty bad all the time) would also be dealing with seriously damaging levels of butt-rash.  And I've changed enough poopy diapers to know that that is no fun at all.

https://www.mamamia.com.au/men-hygiene-sex/

https://slate.com/technology/2024/05/men-soap-washing-butt-reddit.html

ETA: you may or may not remember early in this thread me referring to a Gen Z client dating story that caused me some vicarious trauma? Well, there was a substantial hygiene element to the coercive dynamic that left me...uh...not okay.

ETA 2: My very favourite line from my favourite book about therapy called "Group" is when the author breaks down in group therapy sobbing and saying "I don't have to suck dirty dick."

[twinstudy]

While I have no doubt there are a lot of gross idiot dudes out there some amount of the recent focus on proudly dirty bums has to also be attributable to 1) people willing to say literally anything into a camera for a few clicks and 2) the favorite right wing past time of trolling the "woke" (seeing this earnestly discussed in terms of "toxic masculinity" is something they'll happily lean in to because they find it funny).

Just a reminder that the internet is not representative of reality. Once something becomes a meme it invites all sorts of shenanigans.

Yeah, the more I think about it the less I can believe that it's real.  All these guys walking around with shitty butts (besides smelling pretty bad all the time) would also be dealing with seriously damaging levels of butt-rash.  And I've changed enough poopy diapers to know that that is no fun at all.

https://www.mamamia.com.au/men-hygiene-sex/

https://slate.com/technology/2024/05/men-soap-washing-butt-reddit.html

ETA: you may or may not remember early in this thread me referring to a Gen Z client dating story that caused me some vicarious trauma? Well, there was a substantial hygiene element to the coercive dynamic that left me...uh...not okay.

ETA 2: My very favourite line from my favourite book about therapy called "Group" is when the author breaks down in group therapy sobbing and saying "I don't have to suck dirty dick."

I know reddit is full of reprobates but I really fail to believe that this is happening to more than, say, 1 in 1000 men. It beggars belief.

And why would anyone stay with such a person?

[Metalcat]

While I have no doubt there are a lot of gross idiot dudes out there some amount of the recent focus on proudly dirty bums has to also be attributable to 1) people willing to say literally anything into a camera for a few clicks and 2) the favorite right wing past time of trolling the "woke" (seeing this earnestly discussed in terms of "toxic masculinity" is something they'll happily lean in to because they find it funny).

Just a reminder that the internet is not representative of reality. Once something becomes a meme it invites all sorts of shenanigans.

Yeah, the more I think about it the less I can believe that it's real.  All these guys walking around with shitty butts (besides smelling pretty bad all the time) would also be dealing with seriously damaging levels of butt-rash.  And I've changed enough poopy diapers to know that that is no fun at all.

https://www.mamamia.com.au/men-hygiene-sex/

https://slate.com/technology/2024/05/men-soap-washing-butt-reddit.html

ETA: you may or may not remember early in this thread me referring to a Gen Z client dating story that caused me some vicarious trauma? Well, there was a substantial hygiene element to the coercive dynamic that left me...uh...not okay.

ETA 2: My very favourite line from my favourite book about therapy called "Group" is when the author breaks down in group therapy sobbing and saying "I don't have to suck dirty dick."

I know reddit is full of reprobates but I really fail to believe that this is happening to more than, say, 1 in 1000 men. It beggars belief.

And why would anyone stay with such a person?

This is a high value question if asked from a place of genuine curiosity.

[Kris]

While I have no doubt there are a lot of gross idiot dudes out there some amount of the recent focus on proudly dirty bums has to also be attributable to 1) people willing to say literally anything into a camera for a few clicks and 2) the favorite right wing past time of trolling the "woke" (seeing this earnestly discussed in terms of "toxic masculinity" is something they'll happily lean in to because they find it funny).

Just a reminder that the internet is not representative of reality. Once something becomes a meme it invites all sorts of shenanigans.

Yeah, the more I think about it the less I can believe that it's real.  All these guys walking around with shitty butts (besides smelling pretty bad all the time) would also be dealing with seriously damaging levels of butt-rash.  And I've changed enough poopy diapers to know that that is no fun at all.

https://www.mamamia.com.au/men-hygiene-sex/

https://slate.com/technology/2024/05/men-soap-washing-butt-reddit.html

ETA: you may or may not remember early in this thread me referring to a Gen Z client dating story that caused me some vicarious trauma? Well, there was a substantial hygiene element to the coercive dynamic that left me...uh...not okay.

ETA 2: My very favourite line from my favourite book about therapy called "Group" is when the author breaks down in group therapy sobbing and saying "I don't have to suck dirty dick."

I know reddit is full of reprobates but I really fail to believe that this is happening to more than, say, 1 in 1000 men. It beggars belief.

And why would anyone stay with such a person?

I think you might underestimate the degree to which women are socialized to believe that rejecting men for any number of reasons makes them "shallow." I literally cannot tell you how many discussions I have had over the years with women who have said a variation of: "Boyfriend is really great, I love him so much... but I'm kind of having trouble with the fact that he (*absolutely unconscionable deal-breaker*). I've tried to bring it up with him but he gets so upset and defensive and just either starts yelling at me for making him feel bad or completely shuts down. How do I gently bring this up so that we can have a productive conversation about it? I'm kind of at my wits' end."

This is why, when I see women saying they are done with men, I kinda just nod and think, yeah, maybe that's best.

[dividendman]

The internet isn't a real place. The people who post and try to get attention are the minority of people, usually the vast minority. The most vocal/followed people get all of the attention. Slate quoting reddit and "mamamia" quoting tinder, both the scholarly equivalent of "askmen" and doesn't mean anything.

Breaking news: Gross people exist, film at 11.

[GuitarStv]

While I have no doubt there are a lot of gross idiot dudes out there some amount of the recent focus on proudly dirty bums has to also be attributable to 1) people willing to say literally anything into a camera for a few clicks and 2) the favorite right wing past time of trolling the "woke" (seeing this earnestly discussed in terms of "toxic masculinity" is something they'll happily lean in to because they find it funny).

Just a reminder that the internet is not representative of reality. Once something becomes a meme it invites all sorts of shenanigans.

Yeah, the more I think about it the less I can believe that it's real.  All these guys walking around with shitty butts (besides smelling pretty bad all the time) would also be dealing with seriously damaging levels of butt-rash.  And I've changed enough poopy diapers to know that that is no fun at all.

https://www.mamamia.com.au/men-hygiene-sex/

https://slate.com/technology/2024/05/men-soap-washing-butt-reddit.html

ETA: you may or may not remember early in this thread me referring to a Gen Z client dating story that caused me some vicarious trauma? Well, there was a substantial hygiene element to the coercive dynamic that left me...uh...not okay.

ETA 2: My very favourite line from my favourite book about therapy called "Group" is when the author breaks down in group therapy sobbing and saying "I don't have to suck dirty dick."

 . . . but . . . HOW??????  How is that not causing horrible rashes and discomfort?  Beyond the nasty grossness, I really don't understand how this logistical problem has been overcome.

[Morning Glory]

While I have no doubt there are a lot of gross idiot dudes out there some amount of the recent focus on proudly dirty bums has to also be attributable to 1) people willing to say literally anything into a camera for a few clicks and 2) the favorite right wing past time of trolling the "woke" (seeing this earnestly discussed in terms of "toxic masculinity" is something they'll happily lean in to because they find it funny).

Just a reminder that the internet is not representative of reality. Once something becomes a meme it invites all sorts of shenanigans.

Yeah, the more I think about it the less I can believe that it's real.  All these guys walking around with shitty butts (besides smelling pretty bad all the time) would also be dealing with seriously damaging levels of butt-rash.  And I've changed enough poopy diapers to know that that is no fun at all.

https://www.mamamia.com.au/men-hygiene-sex/

https://slate.com/technology/2024/05/men-soap-washing-butt-reddit.html

ETA: you may or may not remember early in this thread me referring to a Gen Z client dating story that caused me some vicarious trauma? Well, there was a substantial hygiene element to the coercive dynamic that left me...uh...not okay.

ETA 2: My very favourite line from my favourite book about therapy called "Group" is when the author breaks down in group therapy sobbing and saying "I don't have to suck dirty dick."

 . . . but . . . HOW??????  How is that not causing horrible rashes and discomfort?  Beyond the nasty grossness, I really don't understand how this logistical problem has been overcome.

The diaper rashes you see on babies and incontinent people are from a chemical reaction that occurs when urine and stool mix together.  If it's just one or the other it's probably still uncomfortable but doesn't cause near as much skin breakdown unless some pathology is causing liquid stool to come from higher in the digestive tract where there are more enzymes. 

ETA I have seen plenty of men scratch their butt cracks in public.  The itching could be from some sort of dermatitis and not just sweat. 

[twinstudy]

While I have no doubt there are a lot of gross idiot dudes out there some amount of the recent focus on proudly dirty bums has to also be attributable to 1) people willing to say literally anything into a camera for a few clicks and 2) the favorite right wing past time of trolling the "woke" (seeing this earnestly discussed in terms of "toxic masculinity" is something they'll happily lean in to because they find it funny).

Just a reminder that the internet is not representative of reality. Once something becomes a meme it invites all sorts of shenanigans.

Yeah, the more I think about it the less I can believe that it's real.  All these guys walking around with shitty butts (besides smelling pretty bad all the time) would also be dealing with seriously damaging levels of butt-rash.  And I've changed enough poopy diapers to know that that is no fun at all.

https://www.mamamia.com.au/men-hygiene-sex/

https://slate.com/technology/2024/05/men-soap-washing-butt-reddit.html

ETA: you may or may not remember early in this thread me referring to a Gen Z client dating story that caused me some vicarious trauma? Well, there was a substantial hygiene element to the coercive dynamic that left me...uh...not okay.

ETA 2: My very favourite line from my favourite book about therapy called "Group" is when the author breaks down in group therapy sobbing and saying "I don't have to suck dirty dick."

I know reddit is full of reprobates but I really fail to believe that this is happening to more than, say, 1 in 1000 men. It beggars belief.

And why would anyone stay with such a person?

I think you might underestimate the degree to which women are socialized to believe that rejecting men for any number of reasons makes them "shallow." I literally cannot tell you how many discussions I have had over the years with women who have said a variation of: "Boyfriend is really great, I love him so much... but I'm kind of having trouble with the fact that he (*absolutely unconscionable deal-breaker*). I've tried to bring it up with him but he gets so upset and defensive and just either starts yelling at me for making him feel bad or completely shuts down. How do I gently bring this up so that we can have a productive conversation about it? I'm kind of at my wits' end."

This is why, when I see women saying they are done with men, I kinda just nod and think, yeah, maybe that's best.

My politically incorrect but sincere belief is that, if you line up all men and all women from 'best' (most considerate, caring, well-functioning as a human and as a partner) to 'worst', there is about an equal correspondence for, say, the top 1/2 or 3/5 of the population, but at the bottom end, men are just worse/poorer functioning.

 

[wenchsenior]

Yeah, can't complain then! lol

I have heard of that stain thing before, but this is more than just a few nuts?????

I mean people have all types of fetishes and I am not judging that, but that does not sound like one. That sounds like... lol, as we Germans could say: Someone has shat into their brain.

These sort of men, I will add to my mental collection of things which cannot possibly exist (along with Trump voters, people who genuinely believe in multi-level marketing schemes, people who take TikTok influencers seriously, Andrew Tate fans and people who think they can beat the odds at a casino without cheating or card counting).

I just...yeah. I had no idea this existed and cannot even fathom. There's also astrology. Every time I hear someone talk seriously about that, I assume there is a hidden camera somewhere. I mean, THE FUCK is wrong with people?

[LennStar]

You sure your moon isn't shining on the wrong house of the pig?

My politically incorrect but sincere belief is that, if you line up all men and all women from 'best' (most considerate, caring, well-functioning as a human and as a partner) to 'worst', there is about an equal correspondence for, say, the top 1/2 or 3/5 of the population, but at the bottom end, men are just worse/poorer functioning.

It's not politically incorrect to say the truth. Is that the truth? Very likely.

Men are more extreme than women (as always, on average, though that bites a bit with the word extreme ;) ) in... maybe everything?
If nothing else it's down to that X/Y difference. Less balancing. That is why genetic changes like color blindness are more prevalent in men. Mabye also the reason why there are more... let's call it extremely focused people (there are studies indicating that some genetic changes on the Y are important in that regard, like social anxiety or musical attunement).
There is a lot of patriarchy in why we mostly know about the great men of history and not the great women; but it's also because you need to be obsessivly obsessed to be a genius. It's not a coincidence that many many geniuses were a bit wonky in the head.
Men have more very smart people and more utter idiots.

[GuitarStv]

While we're on the subject of colour.  I'm not colourblind, but something that has always bothered me . . .


ROYGBIV

Indigo is a lie.

Indigo is always depicted either as dark blue:


Or as dark purple/violet:



Either way it's not it's own colour, just a darker version of another colour.  WTF science.

[Samuel]

While I have no doubt there are a lot of gross idiot dudes out there some amount of the recent focus on proudly dirty bums has to also be attributable to 1) people willing to say literally anything into a camera for a few clicks and 2) the favorite right wing past time of trolling the "woke" (seeing this earnestly discussed in terms of "toxic masculinity" is something they'll happily lean in to because they find it funny).

Just a reminder that the internet is not representative of reality. Once something becomes a meme it invites all sorts of shenanigans.

Agreed, if the humour of my posting it wasn't obvious, then I fucked up the post.

I thought the multiple creative descriptors for shit-pants made it self-explanatory that I was leaning into the absurdist humour of the whole thing, but I guess not...

Skid marks and men refusing to clean their butts and women having to handle their shit-smeared laundry is a very real, very unpleasant reality for boat loads of ladies out there, but I was having a laugh about the "real men" angle of it. I think it's pretty obvious that the bulk of men are not proud of their skid marks, but there's also enough truth in there that even it becoming a meme should give us all a confused-dog-head-tilt for a second.

It does betray the very real issue that we have seen in this very thread of "be careful complaining" because it will make men feel bad and they'll turn it on you as being the problem for complaining in the first place.

Don't embarrass the men about their poo-pants.

@GuitarStv really should try marketing bidets to men though, although the hose kind are already called a "bum gun" instead of a bidet.

For the record I am very much in support of embarrassing men about their poo-pants.

[Ron Scott]

While we're on the subject of colour.  I'm not colourblind, but something that has always bothered me . . .


ROYGBIV

Indigo is a lie.

Indigo is always depicted either as dark blue:


Or as dark purple/violet:



Either way it's not it's own colour, just a darker version of another colour.  WTF science.

This reminds me of the silly question: If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is around to hear it, does it make a noise? The answer is obviously no.

[dividendman]

This reminds me of the silly question: If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is around to hear it, does it make a noise? The answer is obviously no.

It depends. Noise means sound.
If you define sound as something that must be heard, then the answer is no.
If you define sound as a sound wave (physics) meaning a vibration/energy that is transmitted though a medium, then yes, because no matter how small the tree, if it falls it will create a vibration through the air and the earth.

[simonsez]

While we're on the subject of colour.  I'm not colourblind, but something that has always bothered me . . .


ROYGBIV

Indigo is a lie.

Indigo is always depicted either as dark blue:


Or as dark purple/violet:



Either way it's not it's own colour, just a darker version of another colour.  WTF science.

I am colorblind (bright greens and yellows, dark blues and purples).  Much easier to just read what the colored pencil says on the side and take their word for it.  If it said indigo, sure I'll believe it.  For me, indigo gets put in the same category as the other tertiary and quaternary colors like persimmon, vermilion, amber, teal, magenta, etc.  Whether it's a standalone color or a fancy name for the shade of another (and does "shade" only refer to black and white or can it be other colors mixed in) is above my eyes' pay grade.  Or if you tell me a rainbow moving forward will only be ROYGBP, okay, just what phonetic name are we using?  Maybe that's why the P turns into I and V, it's easier to say even though indigo and violet are not primary or secondary colors.  Still much simpler than RSVPOSAGYLCLGVTCBIVAPAMC*

P.S. F U Roseart and your lack of wording on the pencils.  Got points taken off for coloring the Mediterranean purple instead of blue freshman year of HS.

Spoiler: show

*
red (primary)
scarlet (quaternary, halfway between red and vermilion)
vermilion (tertiary, halfway between red and orange)
persimmon (quaternary, halfway between vermilion and orange)
orange (secondary)
sun (quaternary, halfway between orange and amber)
amber (tertiary, halfway between orange and yellow)
golden (quaternary, halfway between amber and yellow)
yellow (primary)
lemon (quaternary, halfway between yellow and chartreuse)
chartreuse (tertiary, halfway between yellow and green)
lime (quaternary, halfway between chartreuse and green)
green (secondary)
viridian (quaternary, halfway between green and teal)
teal (tertiary, halfway between green and blue)
cerulean (quaternary, halfway between teal and blue)
blue (primary)
indigo (quaternary, halfway between blue and violet)
violet (tertiary, halfway between blue and purple)
amethyst (quaternary, halfway between violet and purple)
purple (secondary)
aubergine (quaternary, halfway between purple and magenta)
magenta (tertiary, halfway between purple and red)
crimson (quaternary, halfway between magenta and red)

[GuitarStv]

Yeah, I think you're on to something there.  ROYGBP makes WAY more sense to my mind.

[Just Joe]

I just...yeah. I had no idea this existed and cannot even fathom. There's also astrology. Every time I hear someone talk seriously about that, I assume there is a hidden camera somewhere. I mean, THE FUCK is wrong with people?

The "signs" are important according to someone I know IRL who makes serious, expensive decisions b/c the signs tell them to...

I don't know the author of this article: https://www.jandrfarmstn.com/going-by-the-signs/

Not sure if these are all the signs but what the article lists is similar to what this person I know says.

The first time I heard them discussing this, I had to choke back a chuckle b/c I thought they were joking. No, this is real - apparently.

[Morning Glory]

I just...yeah. I had no idea this existed and cannot even fathom. There's also astrology. Every time I hear someone talk seriously about that, I assume there is a hidden camera somewhere. I mean, THE FUCK is wrong with people?

The "signs" are important according to someone I know IRL who makes serious, expensive decisions b/c the signs tell them to...

I don't know the author of this article: https://www.jandrfarmstn.com/going-by-the-signs/

Not sure if these are all the signs but what the article lists is similar to what this person I know says.

The first time I heard them discussing this, I had to choke back a chuckle b/c I thought they were joking. No, this is real - apparently.

I read a book recently about  the impact of historical religion on modern gender roles that seemed pretty serious at first but then there was a chapter towards the end about talking to dead people(like with mediums and seances) and I just couldn't take it seriously any more.  The author had claimed earlier in the book to be non-religious. Thing should have had a disclaimer. 

[Morning Glory]

While we're on the subject of colour.  I'm not colourblind, but something that has always bothered me . . .


ROYGBIV

Indigo is a lie.

Indigo is always depicted either as dark blue:


Or as dark purple/violet:



Either way it's not it's own colour, just a darker version of another colour.  WTF science.

This reminds me of the silly question: If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is around to hear it, does it make a noise? The answer is obviously no.

They added an extra one so there would be seven because the number had religious significance.  There are also seven letters used in music because Renaissance guys loved categorizing things into groups of seven and the tree will make one of those, whether anyone heard it or not.

[blue_green_sparks]

There are also seven letters used in music because Renaissance guys loved categorizing things into groups of seven and the tree will make one of those, whether anyone heard it or not.

I think Western music theory is fascinating, as are all other systems. Using seven letters as a musical alphabet (A, B, C, D, E, F, G) is brilliant because they represent all the degrees within a scale without needing to skip any letters. It is a consistent and logical system to name notes across different keys and octaves. An octave just happens to be 7 full tones plus the octave that doubles the base frequency. Pythagoras is credited with discovering this diatonic scale that is so naturally pleasing, the Romans rediscovered it from his writings and the monks of the Middle Ages started using crude systems of written music notation.

[Metalcat]

Well, I was trying to get men to feel what life would be like if a market segment did not cater to them, like so much of the market ignores women.  That didn't go well. Sigh.

In my darker moments I feel that some men work hard to be oblivious.  This is one of them.

Then don't lie to make your points.  I tried to be polite in my first reply, but you persisted in claiming shoe and clothing sizes for American men are not available in Asia, which is false.

For men in North America I suggest the thought experiment of living in an Asian country where everyone is smaller.   No men's clothing,  shoes, etc. in your size, you are too big.  Suddenly life is more difficult.

I thought it was pretty self-evident that she wasn't saying that those sizes don't exist, but that the experience of the larger American male will often be to walk into a store and not have it cater to them as the target market.

Except she literally said that, as I already quoted repeatedly:

For men in North America I suggest the thought experiment of living in an Asian country where everyone is smaller.   No men's clothing,  shoes, etc. in your size, you are too big.  Suddenly life is more difficult.

You are quoting the 3rd paragraph of a 5 paragraph post that came as part of a long discussion.  So you are being very out of context.
If you are going to quote me, quote the whole paragraph:
People who fit the norm,  whatever it is for their area, don't realize how difficult it can be when a person doesn't fit the norm.  For men in North America I suggest the thought experiment of living in an Asian country where everyone is smaller.   No men's clothing,  shoes, etc. in your size, you are too big.  Suddenly life is more difficult.

The important part of that paragraph was the bolded part, basically the part everyone has been ignoring.  Sure you can find what you need if you have the money - you may not find what you want, you may have to settle, you may have to go to specialty stores, or you may have the money to buy custom-made.   But you won't walk into a general purpose store and find what you want.

You have repeatedly claimed that in Asia, western men cannot find their sizes.  You refuse to admit you are wrong - to be accountable for your example being made up.  First, you claimed sizes weren't available... then you claimed the numbering was different, but the size was still a problem... now you claim it is only luxury/specialty stores.  You cannot admit you're wrong, and from personal experience I know you're wrong.

Have you shopped for men's clothing in Asia?

There are dozens of Uniqlo stores in the United States, which is a Japanese brand.  It is not a luxury brand.  There are multiple Uniqlo stores in Tokyo, Japan's capital.  Those stores offer sizes for western men - and I have personally bought clothing there, among other places.  But you won't admit you're wrong - you'll start explaining that Japan or Uniqlo are exceptions in Asia, or that it is a luxury brand.  But you started off claiming western men can't buy clothing in Asia at all - and you will keep moving the goalposts until the discussion ends.

Oh, FFS. We get it. You don't want to understand. Would you just stop posting? All you're doing is making an ass of yourself.

I swear, somewhere in the last year this place just started getting unpleasant.