Why will it take so long?

[blingwrx]

When I say peers comparing our 40-60k a year savings, I mean people who are our friends. Like, our not-quite 1-year-old already has $7,000 in his 529 account. We have some friends that have 2 years olds with $0 saved. I know that isn't a retirement-related comparison, but i don't think we have any friends that max out 401ks like we do. We have some friends that are probably contributing around 0% to retirement based on comments they make...

This makes us feel entitled probably, because we are "sacrificing" $60k a year, but 10 years away is such a "pie in the sky" thing. And when i say sacrificing, i mean we are shopping at Aldi and not the upscale grocer, and we are not driving new BMWs, so it's not like we aren't living a really good lifestyle, it's just we feel like we are making a lot of money and we aren't living some extravegent life of luxury because we are saving for something 10+ years away...

I repeatedly hear you say you think you make a lot of money. To me 90k+67k isn’t a lot, it’s about average in a HCOL city. You might be living check to check if you lived in a HCOL city. I think your mentality that you make a lot and you deserve luxury is driving you in the wrong direction. The best way to cut the 10 years down is to stay hungry and keep working hard and climbing the career ladder or find some side hustles to supplement more income. Aim to get promotions and big annual raises and be comfortable to move on to better opportunities when the current job hits a roadblock your still very young in your career. At the minimum you should be getting 2-3% annul bump just to keep up with inflation. The minute you get comfortable is when your savings will slow down. You just have to keep pushing if you want to reach your goals faster. Cutting expenses and making more money at the same time will get you there twice as fast.

Since you like to compare yourself to your friends you might want to make more successful friends so you will be more driven. Successful people usually follow other successful people. Following Less successful people can drag you down with their lack of budgeting and check to check lifestyle.

I know there’s a lot of luxuries you might want but usually that won’t fit into a FIRE plan unless you’re willing to work extra years for FAT FIRE then maybe you can have the McMansion and luxury cars, But at a 1.25 mil FIRE it looks to be more on the lean side so better to learn to cut the fat from your budget now and be more realistic on your wants given the lean budget you’ll need to stick to when you do FIRE.

[charis]

[snip]

Sub teaching is something I never considered - but a super idea! Thank you!! Even making $10k a year in income would impact FIRE by $250k in savings, which means my wife and I each only need to earn $5k a year, which seems very doable - even if we're just working at a supermarket bagging groceries a few hours a week (10 hours each * 2 of us * $10/hour * 52 weeks per year = $10,400), but I'm sure subbing 1 day a week everyu other week is probably far more lucrative than bagging groceries.

You’re over-imagining substitute pay. In my area, it’s $100 a day for subs that are certified teachers and $85 for non-certified subs with a bachelor’s degree. School isn’t in session year round, so at 1 day every other week, you’re looking at significantly less than a regular $10/hr grocery bagging job.

Your area might pay significantly more if demand is high, but I doubt it based on national teacher salary rates.

Well sure. Looks like subs make about $100 a day in MN. That's for ~6 hours of work, so about $17 / hour. The difference is i could get more hours bagging groceries than i could as a sub. Still, if we each pick up a sub shift every other week we would make $5200 a year for just 1 day a week between the 2 of us. That's not bad.

I like Arelsby's idea of part time contracting better though. I was contracting before my current gig making $65/hour. So, if i do that for 4 months a year, that's $42,000 - or almost our entire FIRE budget. We could Coast FIRE on that...

Look, I get that you’re not serious about subbing, but your math is still wrong. $100/week of public school work is more like $3600/yr assuming you each get one job every other week. Summer, Christmas holidays, thanksgiving and spring break, etc. all eliminate weeks of work. Minus taxes. Minus the possibility of a required retirement contribution (not in MN but when I was subbing I was required here to contribute to a 403b and didn’t have an option to choose which one). Also, bell to bell I was teaching for 7.5 hours. Subs in my area have duty during the assigned teacher’s conference period, so don’t count on a class period “off” just because the teacher has planning time. Again, not MN so your mileage may vary. Maybe you mistyped and meant it would be easy to pick up $5200 worth of work in a school year for two people instead of 1 day of work per week earning $5200 per year?

It’s a solid option for someone who wants to work with children and is flexible and wants some supplemental income. I’m only pointing it it because you seem to have an overall warped perception of money and how much you need vs have, combined with a strong desire to be done working now. I understand the desire, BUT maybe you should look more closely at your consulting numbers before jumping on any idea. If you want to semi-ER, you have to make sure the numbers match up. Good luck.

Yeah, teachers don't work 6 hour days - I don't know where you are getting that number.  Most teachers are contracted to be in the building for 8 hours (appx 7a-3p, but it varies depending on school hours).  And if you don't have a teaching cert, you make less than the typical going rate for subs.

[Mgmny]

Yeah, teachers don't work 6 hour days - I don't know where you are getting that number.  Most teachers are contracted to be in the building for 8 hours (appx 7a-3p, but it varies depending on school hours).  And if you don't have a teaching cert, you make less than the typical going rate for subs.

Well, when i was in high school, we had 6, 56-minute periods per day plus a lunch period. Teachers taught 5 periods in a day plus got the lunch that lined up with their classes lunch block.

So, as a sub, I would be responsible for educating students 5 x 56 minutes which is really 4 hours and 40 minutes daily. Would i need to be in the building during lunch and the "prep" period, sure, so we can call it 6 hours plus a 40 minute lunch, if you want.

I don't want this thread to go into a flame war about sub pay though, so let's just assume i'm not going to be a sub, and i would stick towards short-term contracts in the field i currently work in.

[robartsd]

What you aren't taking into account is the work the compounding is doing for you.

Let me put it another way.

Most FIREees who ER on 4% WR see their portfolio go up and up. 4% WR is for a big crash immediately after ERing (sequence of returns risk). The average portfolio tends to gain. A lot. That time while FIRE'd compounding is working for you, but to a mostly pointless end--you already have enough. Sure, you could give it to kids, or charity, or whatever, but it's not super useful money to you personally.

Instead, by early semi-retiring, you use that compounding time to work for you--to earn you money that you will use, vis-a-vis less working time. So you semi-ER with much less than you need, work some along the way to earn money, and letting that compounding that would give you a huge unneeded stache instead boost you to FIRE.

Less working time overall, more happiness, but less money earned overall. It's not more actual working time to FIRE, even with a lower savings rate, cause you're shifting future useless income from compounding to useful income.

Make more sense?

No, I can't find an example with concrete numbers where it actually works out to less total working time. More time compounding returns makes up for some but not all of the decreased saving rate. The more you've accumulated before cutting back, the lower the impact of cutting back because the earliest years are the most important for the compounding returns. I've run a few simple projections and found that after getting about halfway to FIRE, cutting back is pretty much negligible to the total working time required to get to FIRE at that point; but cutting back earlier adds a bit to total working time (as the 13% more total working time in the example starting from zero that I provided). I get the concept, but the numbers don't seem to work out. The only way I see it being possible is if progressive tax rates and limited tax deferred savings space makes it more tax efficient to distribute the accumulation over more time to make up for the rest of the decreased savings rate.

Although I do think that coast FIRE strategies require a small bit extra total working time, the distribution of that work over more years seems like it would provide great quality of life options that could be worthwhile.

[Mgmny]

When I say peers comparing our 40-60k a year savings, I mean people who are our friends. Like, our not-quite 1-year-old already has $7,000 in his 529 account. We have some friends that have 2 years olds with $0 saved. I know that isn't a retirement-related comparison, but i don't think we have any friends that max out 401ks like we do. We have some friends that are probably contributing around 0% to retirement based on comments they make...

This makes us feel entitled probably, because we are "sacrificing" $60k a year, but 10 years away is such a "pie in the sky" thing. And when i say sacrificing, i mean we are shopping at Aldi and not the upscale grocer, and we are not driving new BMWs, so it's not like we aren't living a really good lifestyle, it's just we feel like we are making a lot of money and we aren't living some extravegent life of luxury because we are saving for something 10+ years away...

I repeatedly hear you say you think you make a lot of money. To me 90k+67k isn’t a lot, it’s about average in a HCOL city. You might be living check to check if you lived in a HCOL city. I think your mentality that you make a lot and you deserve luxury is driving you in the wrong direction. The best way to cut the 10 years down is to stay hungry and keep working hard and climbing the career ladder or find some side hustles to supplement more income. Aim to get promotions and big annual raises and be comfortable to move on to better opportunities when the current job hits a roadblock your still very young in your career. At the minimum you should be getting 2-3% annul bump just to keep up with inflation. The minute you get comfortable is when your savings will slow down. You just have to keep pushing if you want to reach your goals faster. Cutting expenses and making more money at the same time will get you there twice as fast.

Since you like to compare yourself to your friends you might want to make more successful friends so you will be more driven. Successful people usually follow other successful people. Following Less successful people can drag you down with their lack of budgeting and check to check lifestyle.

I know there’s a lot of luxuries you might want but usually that won’t fit into a FIRE plan unless you’re willing to work extra years for FAT FIRE then maybe you can have the McMansion and luxury cars, But at a 1.25 mil FIRE it looks to be more on the lean side so better to learn to cut the fat from your budget now and be more realistic on your wants given the lean budget you’ll need to stick to when you do FIRE.

I mean, we live in suburban MN. Not the cheapest state, but not San Francisco by any stretch.

https://dqydj.com/income-percentile-by-age-calculator/

According to that website, my wife and i are both at 90% for our ages (90k for 29 year old and 70k for 25 year old, plus my wife gets commission, so she is probably closer to 82k this year). So, we are 2 people in the 90th percentile for our age. I would imagine that 2, 90th percentile incomes in a family probably puts us at like 96th percentile for our age in terms of household income (it would be 99th if the distribution were even and marriage preference wasn't skewed, so i just am guessing at 96th because high earners probably marry other high earners, and the earnings curve is logarithmic, not even). So, yes, i do say we make a lot of money, and I feel like that claim is justified by the demographic statistics, but whatever.

As far as making "successful" friends, that would probably hurt us more than anything. The average American spends way too much money, so if we started hanging out with our financial peers (or people making 2-3x as much as us (so, 500k a year...), we would be pressured EVEN MORE to purchase the land rovers/lexuses and to take weekend trips to the St Regis in Park City...

Realistically, from other comments, i think we should probably make more mustachian friends who would encourage us to live more frugally and spur us on in saving.

I understand staying hungry though. For instance, before i started this full time job in July, i had another offer that was for $65/hour (contract).so, i basically left 20-40k on the table per year to get a more "relaxed" job with unlimited PTO, 12 minute commute (compared to 1 hour). So, i definitely hit the"easy" button for this job, not the "climber" or "hungry" approach like i could have to get my stache to grow faster. But again, i feel like we're making a lot at 90+70 (and you can disagree). Would it help to reach FI faster with more money? absolutely.

[Mgmny]

What you aren't taking into account is the work the compounding is doing for you.

Let me put it another way.

Most FIREees who ER on 4% WR see their portfolio go up and up. 4% WR is for a big crash immediately after ERing (sequence of returns risk). The average portfolio tends to gain. A lot. That time while FIRE'd compounding is working for you, but to a mostly pointless end--you already have enough. Sure, you could give it to kids, or charity, or whatever, but it's not super useful money to you personally.

Instead, by early semi-retiring, you use that compounding time to work for you--to earn you money that you will use, vis-a-vis less working time. So you semi-ER with much less than you need, work some along the way to earn money, and letting that compounding that would give you a huge unneeded stache instead boost you to FIRE.

Less working time overall, more happiness, but less money earned overall. It's not more actual working time to FIRE, even with a lower savings rate, cause you're shifting future useless income from compounding to useful income.

Make more sense?

No, I can't find an example with concrete numbers where it actually works out to less total working time. More time compounding returns makes up for some but not all of the decreased saving rate. The more you've accumulated before cutting back, the lower the impact of cutting back because the earliest years are the most important for the compounding returns. I've run a few simple projections and found that after getting about halfway to FIRE, cutting back is pretty much negligible to the total working time required to get to FIRE at that point; but cutting back earlier adds a bit to total working time (as the 13% more total working time in the example starting from zero that I provided). I get the concept, but the numbers don't seem to work out. The only way I see it being possible is if progressive tax rates and limited tax deferred savings space makes it more tax efficient to distribute the accumulation over more time to make up for the rest of the decreased savings rate.

Although I do think that coast FIRE strategies require a small bit extra total working time, the distribution of that work over more years seems like it would provide great quality of life options that could be worthwhile.

Yeah, i think that the math and timeline checks out, but i think it's key to make sure that your investment portfolio is of adequate mass to make it worthwhile.

Like, if we start to coast TODAY, we would need ot coast for another 28 years to hit my FI number. (assuming 8% interest compounded). If we pile on 60k a year for the next 5 years, that coast drops to 10... so it's a tradeoff for sure.

[Mgmny]

[snip]

Sub teaching is something I never considered - but a super idea! Thank you!! Even making $10k a year in income would impact FIRE by $250k in savings, which means my wife and I each only need to earn $5k a year, which seems very doable - even if we're just working at a supermarket bagging groceries a few hours a week (10 hours each * 2 of us * $10/hour * 52 weeks per year = $10,400), but I'm sure subbing 1 day a week everyu other week is probably far more lucrative than bagging groceries.

You’re over-imagining substitute pay. In my area, it’s $100 a day for subs that are certified teachers and $85 for non-certified subs with a bachelor’s degree. School isn’t in session year round, so at 1 day every other week, you’re looking at significantly less than a regular $10/hr grocery bagging job.

Your area might pay significantly more if demand is high, but I doubt it based on national teacher salary rates.

Well sure. Looks like subs make about $100 a day in MN. That's for ~6 hours of work, so about $17 / hour. The difference is i could get more hours bagging groceries than i could as a sub. Still, if we each pick up a sub shift every other week we would make $5200 a year for just 1 day a week between the 2 of us. That's not bad.

I like Arelsby's idea of part time contracting better though. I was contracting before my current gig making $65/hour. So, if i do that for 4 months a year, that's $42,000 - or almost our entire FIRE budget. We could Coast FIRE on that...

Look, I get that you’re not serious about subbing, but your math is still wrong. $100/week of public school work is more like $3600/yr assuming you each get one job every other week. Summer, Christmas holidays, thanksgiving and spring break, etc. all eliminate weeks of work. Minus taxes. Minus the possibility of a required retirement contribution (not in MN but when I was subbing I was required here to contribute to a 403b and didn’t have an option to choose which one). Also, bell to bell I was teaching for 7.5 hours. Subs in my area have duty during the assigned teacher’s conference period, so don’t count on a class period “off” just because the teacher has planning time. Again, not MN so your mileage may vary. Maybe you mistyped and meant it would be easy to pick up $5200 worth of work in a school year for two people instead of 1 day of work per week earning $5200 per year?

It’s a solid option for someone who wants to work with children and is flexible and wants some supplemental income. I’m only pointing it it because you seem to have an overall warped perception of money and how much you need vs have, combined with a strong desire to be done working now. I understand the desire, BUT maybe you should look more closely at your consulting numbers before jumping on any idea. If you want to semi-ER, you have to make sure the numbers match up. Good luck.

Thanks GC! Good points about summer and holidays. You are right. I was assuming 52 weeks in a year and my wife and I would alternate working weeks, so between the two of us we would work 1 day a week for 52 weeks - or 52 days a year @ $100 a pop would be $5200. That's a huge oversimplification, and didn't account for the fact that school has holidays, and summers etc.

But yeah, it was just an example. Let's all just assume that the subbing thing isn't going to happen.

I think the short term contract idea is the best idea worth exploring once our investment porfolio grows to a big enough critical mass.

[Mgmny]

What you aren't taking into account is the work the compounding is doing for you.

Let me put it another way.

Most FIREees who ER on 4% WR see their portfolio go up and up. 4% WR is for a big crash immediately after ERing (sequence of returns risk). The average portfolio tends to gain. A lot. That time while FIRE'd compounding is working for you, but to a mostly pointless end--you already have enough. Sure, you could give it to kids, or charity, or whatever, but it's not super useful money to you personally.

Instead, by early semi-retiring, you use that compounding time to work for you--to earn you money that you will use, vis-a-vis less working time. So you semi-ER with much less than you need, work some along the way to earn money, and letting that compounding that would give you a huge unneeded stache instead boost you to FIRE.

Less working time overall, more happiness, but less money earned overall. It's not more actual working time to FIRE, even with a lower savings rate, cause you're shifting future useless income from compounding to useful income.

Make more sense?

Yeah Arelspy's math checks out. I get what you're trying to say Robartsd, but that assumes no initial investment portfolio. today i have 225k (Friday I had 229..hrumph!). In 5 years, i couldhave 700k.At 8% returns, that is $50k in just the first year!

A lot of this can be thrown out the window if/when the market crashes in the next 10 years, but luckily, it will come back soon enough.

[Mgmny]

This isn't the point you are making, I know, BUT i'm going to defend the house purchase (to my detriment, i know). We ended up selling the house we paid 220k for in 2015 for 315, and then purchased our new home brand new for 415k.

So, our first 30 year loan was based on 209k at 4.25% and our new loan is 240k at 3.75%. Our monthly payment is only $100 more a month. YES I KNOW MONTHLY PAYMENT MEANS NOTHING, BUT it feels really cool to trade a house we paid 220k for 4 years ago built 40 years ago for a house we had built for us with more space, efficiency, etc. for only $100 more a month. I know i know, not the point, and still effectively cost me $200k more. I realize that completely. But it's really not as bad as us taking out a half a million dollar loan with a $2200 a month disappearing into interest each month. But regardless, it was a $200k expense, yes.

Back to your post: Your list is good, and the engineer's triangle (or we call it the iron triangle in project management, so i should be very familiar with this concept) is a really important thought that I don't think of often enough. I just want it all, and I don't reflect on my situation/experiences enough to realize that I am getting about as close to having it all as possible. Just 10 years away...

As for looking at the "FIRED AT 29!" people, it does look like a lot of those people have 4+ rental properties - so a sustainable income from non-savings/investments. I'm not interested in getting into rentals or DEPENDING on any other type of side hustle during retirement - i just want my portfolio to work for me....

Look, you are completely, 100% normal.  Everyone wants it all, and no one actually wants to make the choices we need to make -- but we do it anyway.  I still occasionally fall asleep dreaming about a beachfront condo in the Caribbean.  And then I wake up the next morning and go to work.  There's nothing wrong with wanting it all -- you just have to understand that "all" is a daydream.

I've heard a lot of people say to change your attitude, and I find that's something that's very difficult to intuit how to do (at least, speaking as someone who clung to the "where's my winning Powerball ticket dammit" mindset for far longer than I'm happy to admit).  So I figured I'd tell you how I keep my whiny self in check:  I look at all of my options, and I think through, in detail, how my life would change if I pursued each of them.  And not just the "I'll sit on the beach with umbrella drinks every day!" version of change -- I mean the good, the bad, and the really truly ugly.  And usually, when I look at what some other version would really require, I realize that I've got just about the best combination of time to FIRE and carpe diem that I can manage. 

That's why I'm not criticizing the house.  I totally get it -- mine's 130+ years old, more house than I need, and I love it.  You'll pry it out of my cold, dead hands.  But that's a choice, and it has consequences:  you can buy the bigger house, and work X more years to pay off the additional costs (and foregone investment profits from that $200K); or you can decide that your old house is good enough and not worth all the extra years to FIRE.  You decided the house was worth it, and you still seem to love it, so good for you!  And if you want to, you can make that same decision again with an even bigger dream house at some point.  Or you might be 8 years down the road, and now you really hate your job, and you're desperate to FIRE and spend more time with your kids, and now you're not willing to deal with working 3-4 more years just for the house; then maybe you decide to sell it and downsize, because it no longer suits your priorities. 

Same with rental properties:  you have accurately identified that as a very good path people follow to FIRE at younger ages.  You, too, can do that.  But you have decided you don't want to deal with all of the hassle of being a landlord.  OK, so don't -- invest in the market and find another way.

But whatever path you choose, you don't get to whine about the tradeoffs.  Just remind yourself that you made this choice, and you made it because it suited your own life and priorities.  And when you feel like whining, just sit down and go through the same analysis again to see whether that choice still fits, or whether you need to go in another direction.

Thanks Laura. Really solid advice, thank you.

[robartsd]

Yeah Arelspy's math checks out. I get what you're trying to say Robartsd, but that assumes no initial investment portfolio. today i have 225k (Friday I had 229..hrumph!). In 5 years, i couldhave 700k.At 8% returns, that is $50k in just the first year!

A lot of this can be thrown out the window if/when the market crashes in the next 10 years, but luckily, it will come back soon enough.

It looks like the difference is that I use a more conservative 6% real return in my projections. Even with a significant start, this wasn't enough returns to compound fast enough to change total earned income required by anything more than a rounding error. Assuming 8% real returns I can see a small benefit in terms of reducing total earned income required.

[Spud]

Good points. With the biggest spending category (housing) we are admittedly suckers for a nice house, so that is something that we could be doing better at...

I should look at my own list and realize that the trade-offs aren't worth it and that my life is pretty good right now.

I found this post on an old thread I was reading through and it seemed to show a theoretical but not too dissimilar situation so far as in someone who is locked into high spending on the big things can mess about with smaller expenditure items, but it won't really make any difference.

[Mgmny]

Good points. With the biggest spending category (housing) we are admittedly suckers for a nice house, so that is something that we could be doing better at...

I should look at my own list and realize that the trade-offs aren't worth it and that my life is pretty good right now.

I found this post on an old thread I was reading through and it seemed to show a theoretical but not too dissimilar situation so far as in someone who is locked into high spending on the big things can mess about with smaller expenditure items, but it won't really make any difference.

You are right, and it's absolutely true, but (there's always a but!) my monthly payment REALLY isn't that high! It's about $1500 a month for principle, interest, taxes, and insurance. That's really not bad!

Now, could I have used all my house equity and put into a taxable account (and therefore a higher mortgage payment) to accelerate FIRE? Yes, i could have. but in terms of trimming expenses, it's not really a huge expense to trim... I just have about $180k in equity tied up in it to deflate the monthly payment on a $415k house.

[Gremlin]

No one can or should tell you what your priorities need to be.  This journey should be about spending consciously on the things that matter to you.  You've asserted (by your actions if not words) that the new house you're in is more important than FIRE.  That's cool.  That's your choice.

There are a number of people that fall into a trap of measuring the cost to carry a loan rather than the opportunity cost of the purchase in the first place.  It's the same argument with why they always carry a car payment and regularly upgrade their car as a result.

This may be your family's dream home.  If so that may be a great thing to have prioritised.  But if this is a stepping-stone to a bigger, more fancypants place down the track (and again... and again...) then the trade-off is not how much it costs you to carry the loan, the trade-off is between having an increasingly large slab of money compounding FOR you versus an increasingly large slab of money compounding AGAINST you.  I know which one I would choose...

[gatortator]

there are 3 ways to have more money

1. earn more
2  save more
3. want less

you seem to be focusing on #2.  I challenge you to shift you mindset and focus on #3.  the two links might help you start this.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=69x5i4xIIvY&list=PLq0_N-XTl2yCcazAcWtNbzt0kxOxheCGd&index=58&t=0s

https://www.becomingminimalist.com/ungreen-with-envy/

[Mgmny]

No one can or should tell you what your priorities need to be.  This journey should be about spending consciously on the things that matter to you.  You've asserted (by your actions if not words) that the new house you're in is more important than FIRE.  That's cool.  That's your choice.

There are a number of people that fall into a trap of measuring the cost to carry a loan rather than the opportunity cost of the purchase in the first place.  It's the same argument with why they always carry a car payment and regularly upgrade their car as a result.

This may be your family's dream home.  If so that may be a great thing to have prioritised.  But if this is a stepping-stone to a bigger, more fancypants place down the track (and again... and again...) then the trade-off is not how much it costs you to carry the loan, the trade-off is between having an increasingly large slab of money compounding FOR you versus an increasingly large slab of money compounding AGAINST you.  I know which one I would choose...

Woah, hits home on the car payment comparison. I refuse to have a car payment, so to say i'm doing the same thing with a house, is bad news bears...

The difference MIGHT be that houses typically appreciate value whereas cars rarely/never do. Although, if I believed that wholeheartedly, then i wouldn't have put a dime over 20% down to allow for greater leverage and put the restr in the market. Instead, I put something like 45% down, so clearly not.

[Mgmny]

there are 3 ways to have more money

1. earn more
2  save more
3. want less

you seem to be focusing on #2.  I challenge you to shift you mindset and focus on #3.  the two links might help you start this.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=69x5i4xIIvY&list=PLq0_N-XTl2yCcazAcWtNbzt0kxOxheCGd&index=58&t=0s

https://www.becomingminimalist.com/ungreen-with-envy/

So, I feel like i do a reasonably good job at #3 with the exception of housing. I'm attempting to downsize my car (we purchased my wife's company lease as it was sold 3-5k under market value, and i'm driving it because she has a new company lease), i purchase very few things - and if i do, I ALWAYS try to "hack" it or find a way to get it more cheaply that otherwise i should be able to.  That said, I know that something on sale for $200 when it's originally $700 doesn't mean i saved $500, it means that i SPENT $200. Totally understand.

I think my problem with minimalism, is that it forces me to purge a bunch of stuff that i may need in 5 years, which means that i would need to purchase it again! That seems counterintuitive... But I know that sounds like i'm a hoarder, but I promise you, I'm not.

A good example is that I purchased a chainsaw when I purchased my first house, because we had 20+ mature trees in our yard that "warranted" owning a small, electric chainsaw. Now that I moved to a brand new development, there are 0 trees on my lot that will require a chainsaw for the next 10 years. Do I really save any money by getting rid of (even if i can sell it for half the cost) or my chainsaw?

I can definitely focus/look at #3 from a wants perspective and not from a minimalist perspective. But, i will check out the links this afternoon. I did watch the documentary on netflix a few years ago by those 2 guys though.

[Metalcat]

No one can or should tell you what your priorities need to be.  This journey should be about spending consciously on the things that matter to you.  You've asserted (by your actions if not words) that the new house you're in is more important than FIRE.  That's cool.  That's your choice.

There are a number of people that fall into a trap of measuring the cost to carry a loan rather than the opportunity cost of the purchase in the first place.  It's the same argument with why they always carry a car payment and regularly upgrade their car as a result.

This may be your family's dream home.  If so that may be a great thing to have prioritised.  But if this is a stepping-stone to a bigger, more fancypants place down the track (and again... and again...) then the trade-off is not how much it costs you to carry the loan, the trade-off is between having an increasingly large slab of money compounding FOR you versus an increasingly large slab of money compounding AGAINST you.  I know which one I would choose...

Woah, hits home on the car payment comparison. I refuse to have a car payment, so to say i'm doing the same thing with a house, is bad news bears...

The difference MIGHT be that houses typically appreciate value whereas cars rarely/never do. Although, if I believed that wholeheartedly, then i wouldn't have put a dime over 20% down to allow for greater leverage and put the restr in the market. Instead, I put something like 45% down, so clearly not.

Houses do tend to appreciate in value, but like cars, they come with ongoing costs that somewhat scale to the purchase price: property taxes, maintenance, and the need to maintain them with a certain standard of finishes in order to max your sale value in the future.

That's not even accounting for the internal psychological pressure to "invest" more in nicer finishings and furniture in a more expensive home, or the external social pressures to keep up with neighbours, even if it's just in terms of what the norms are for spending on kids birthday parties, etc.

And none of that accounts for the fact that more expensive homes tend to be surrounded by more expensive goods and services, so just grabbing a pint at the neighbourhood pub is more expensive.

So yes, unlike a car, a house may appreciate in value, and even a very expensive one could end up resulting in huge financial gains depending on what's happening in the market, but it's also not unlike a car in that a higher price tag often comes with a higher maintenance cost/lifestyle.

There's A LOT more to COL than just price of homes.

[Moonwaves]

I think my problem with minimalism, is that it forces me to purge a bunch of stuff that i may need in 5 years, which means that i would need to purchase it again! That seems counterintuitive... But I know that sounds like i'm a hoarder, but I promise you, I'm not.

A good example is that I purchased a chainsaw when I purchased my first house, because we had 20+ mature trees in our yard that "warranted" owning a small, electric chainsaw. Now that I moved to a brand new development, there are 0 trees on my lot that will require a chainsaw for the next 10 years. Do I really save any money by getting rid of (even if i can sell it for half the cost) or my chainsaw?

I think focusing on not accumulating more would be a good place to start. Once you have gotten into the habit of evaluating every potential purpose through a lense of do I really need this/what value does this add to my life/do I have to buy it new or can I buy it second-hand or rent it or borrow it/do I have something else that will do the job instead, then you can perhaps start to evaluate the things you already have.

If you haven't already read it, get Marie Kondo's book the Life-Changing Magic of Tidying Up (from the library, obviously :) ) and maybe watch a few episodes of her series or other similar series like Consumed. There's a huge decluttering thread here, too. The thought that really struck me from the book was not to concentrate on what to get rid of, but rather what to keep. That was a huge shift in mindset for me.

In the case of the chainsaw, aren't you planning on staying in that house? Do you ever plan on having trees or anything that might necessitate the use of it? How much space does it take up and how much time do you spend on maintenance/servicing every year? What would you do with that space if you didn't have a chainsaw in it? Just some things to think about. It's not about getting rid of everything, it's more about being mindful and only possessing the items that really add value to your life. You are the only ones who can decide what those things are.

[Mgmny]

No one can or should tell you what your priorities need to be.  This journey should be about spending consciously on the things that matter to you.  You've asserted (by your actions if not words) that the new house you're in is more important than FIRE.  That's cool.  That's your choice.

There are a number of people that fall into a trap of measuring the cost to carry a loan rather than the opportunity cost of the purchase in the first place.  It's the same argument with why they always carry a car payment and regularly upgrade their car as a result.

This may be your family's dream home.  If so that may be a great thing to have prioritised.  But if this is a stepping-stone to a bigger, more fancypants place down the track (and again... and again...) then the trade-off is not how much it costs you to carry the loan, the trade-off is between having an increasingly large slab of money compounding FOR you versus an increasingly large slab of money compounding AGAINST you.  I know which one I would choose...

Woah, hits home on the car payment comparison. I refuse to have a car payment, so to say i'm doing the same thing with a house, is bad news bears...

The difference MIGHT be that houses typically appreciate value whereas cars rarely/never do. Although, if I believed that wholeheartedly, then i wouldn't have put a dime over 20% down to allow for greater leverage and put the restr in the market. Instead, I put something like 45% down, so clearly not.

Houses do tend to appreciate in value, but like cars, they come with ongoing costs that somewhat scale to the purchase price: property taxes, maintenance, and the need to maintain them with a certain standard of finishes in order to max your sale value in the future.

That's not even accounting for the internal psychological pressure to "invest" more in nicer finishings and furniture in a more expensive home, or the external social pressures to keep up with neighbours, even if it's just in terms of what the norms are for spending on kids birthday parties, etc.

And none of that accounts for the fact that more expensive homes tend to be surrounded by more expensive goods and services, so just grabbing a pint at the neighbourhood pub is more expensive.

So yes, unlike a car, a house may appreciate in value, and even a very expensive one could end up resulting in huge financial gains depending on what's happening in the market, but it's also not unlike a car in that a higher price tag often comes with a higher maintenance cost/lifestyle.

There's A LOT more to COL than just price of homes.

Excellent points and so true - but not something i would think about, but totally true. At my last 220k home we put in contractor grade cabinets in our basement for a "bar" in a game room, and we put in more cabinets in our laundry room for storage and for a countertop to fold laundry on. The contractor grade cabinets we painted ourselves, and picked up the laminate tops that Lowe's had on hand, and they turned out super nice on both. For 16 feet of cabinetry and countertops (plus some uppers), the whole thing cost just over $1000 with everything included. When we went to sell the house, people were commenting how nice it was to have the extra storage and tops.

NOW at our new house, we put in cabinets next to our kitchen. Naturally, they needed to match the style of cabinet and granite that the builder supplied, so our cabinets, plus countertop total came to about $2500... for 4 feet!! so, we paid about 2x as much for 1/4 of the material compared to the "same" renovation at our new house compared to the old house... Great points about expenses going up...

Another example is fencing - we had to put up ornamental fencing (instead of wooden or chainlink) because of our HOA. Our last house had wood on one neighbor's side, and chain link on the other sides. Another cost that was increased by moving to a more fancy-pants neighborhood. g-dangit!

Well, maybe this will solidify my desire to really move to the country where there are no HOAs, no joneses to keep up with!

[Moonwaves]

One other thing I forgot to mention is the calculation of how much the money that you spend on x would earn you if invested. It's one thing to think, well, it only costs 10 dollars per month. It's another to think that that 10 dollars, invested over 10 year and assuming 7% return would be something like 1730.
I can't remember which blog post or posts lays this all out, maybe the millionaire is made ten bucks at a time one? I made a note at some stage that to calculate monthly expenses like this you multiply by 173 and weekly expenses you multiply by 752. Can't find the number now for a rough calculation of the opportunity cost of one-off expenses like your chainsaw. But it is definitely another aspect to consider when deciding to spend money.

[gatortator]

I think my problem with minimalism, is that it forces me to purge a bunch of stuff that i may need in 5 years, which means that i would need to purchase it again! That seems counterintuitive... But I know that sounds like i'm a hoarder, but I promise you, I'm not.

A good example is that I purchased a chainsaw when I purchased my first house, because we had 20+ mature trees in our yard that "warranted" owning a small, electric chainsaw. Now that I moved to a brand new development, there are 0 trees on my lot that will require a chainsaw for the next 10 years. Do I really save any money by getting rid of (even if i can sell it for half the cost) or my chainsaw?

OR you could look at it like this:

you could keep the chainsaw for 10 years before you need it.  and deal with the time/energy/worry it takes to maintain and own it,
or you could just rent one when the hypothetical need arises and instead spend this time/energy/worry,  laughing/playing/ chasing your kids.

Which is your priority?

[Metalcat]

I think my problem with minimalism, is that it forces me to purge a bunch of stuff that i may need in 5 years, which means that i would need to purchase it again! That seems counterintuitive... But I know that sounds like i'm a hoarder, but I promise you, I'm not.

A good example is that I purchased a chainsaw when I purchased my first house, because we had 20+ mature trees in our yard that "warranted" owning a small, electric chainsaw. Now that I moved to a brand new development, there are 0 trees on my lot that will require a chainsaw for the next 10 years. Do I really save any money by getting rid of (even if i can sell it for half the cost) or my chainsaw?

OR you could look at it like this:

you could keep the chainsaw for 10 years before you need it.  and deal with the time/energy/worry it takes to maintain and own it,
or you could just rent one when the hypothetical need arises and instead spend this time/energy/worry,  laughing/playing/ chasing your kids.

Which is your priority?

Or borrow one
Or buy a used one and then sell it again for nearly the same price
Or share ownership of one with a group of neighbours who all need a chainsaw on rare occasions
Or offer to hire a neighbour to do the chainsawing when needed
Or...

[Mgmny]

One other thing I forgot to mention is the calculation of how much the money that you spend on x would earn you if invested. It's one thing to think, well, it only costs 10 dollars per month. It's another to think that that 10 dollars, invested over 10 year and assuming 7% return would be something like 1730.
I can't remember which blog post or posts lays this all out, maybe the millionaire is made ten bucks at a time one? I made a note at some stage that to calculate monthly expenses like this you multiply by 173 and weekly expenses you multiply by 752. Can't find the number now for a rough calculation of the opportunity cost of one-off expenses like your chainsaw. But it is definitely another aspect to consider when deciding to spend money.

True. MMM uses that math all the time - i should employ it more in my daily life to appreciate the TRUE cost of a chainsaw, Chipotle burrito, etc. thanks for the good reminder!

[Mgmny]

I think my problem with minimalism, is that it forces me to purge a bunch of stuff that i may need in 5 years, which means that i would need to purchase it again! That seems counterintuitive... But I know that sounds like i'm a hoarder, but I promise you, I'm not.

A good example is that I purchased a chainsaw when I purchased my first house, because we had 20+ mature trees in our yard that "warranted" owning a small, electric chainsaw. Now that I moved to a brand new development, there are 0 trees on my lot that will require a chainsaw for the next 10 years. Do I really save any money by getting rid of (even if i can sell it for half the cost) or my chainsaw?

OR you could look at it like this:

you could keep the chainsaw for 10 years before you need it.  and deal with the time/energy/worry it takes to maintain and own it,
or you could just rent one when the hypothetical need arises and instead spend this time/energy/worry,  laughing/playing/ chasing your kids.

Which is your priority?

Touche.

I watched the video and read the article, thank you! As i've stated earlier, i will work on being more gracious and content with what i have today - that seems to be the big takeaway (OR be OK with pushing FIRE out if i have different priorities).

[Mgmny]

I think my problem with minimalism, is that it forces me to purge a bunch of stuff that i may need in 5 years, which means that i would need to purchase it again! That seems counterintuitive... But I know that sounds like i'm a hoarder, but I promise you, I'm not.

A good example is that I purchased a chainsaw when I purchased my first house, because we had 20+ mature trees in our yard that "warranted" owning a small, electric chainsaw. Now that I moved to a brand new development, there are 0 trees on my lot that will require a chainsaw for the next 10 years. Do I really save any money by getting rid of (even if i can sell it for half the cost) or my chainsaw?

OR you could look at it like this:

you could keep the chainsaw for 10 years before you need it.  and deal with the time/energy/worry it takes to maintain and own it,
or you could just rent one when the hypothetical need arises and instead spend this time/energy/worry,  laughing/playing/ chasing your kids.

Which is your priority?

Or borrow one
Or buy a used one and then sell it again for nearly the same price
Or share ownership of one with a group of neighbours who all need a chainsaw on rare occasions
Or offer to hire a neighbour to do the chainsawing when needed
Or...

Lol, thanks Malkynn. I will consider alternatives prior to purchasing items moving forward!!

[Simpli-Fi]

holy shit this was an entertaining read

I repeatedly hear you say you think you make a lot of money.

no joneses to keep up with!

plus all the house upgrade talk (with more than twice the minimum down with these super low rates available with 25% YTD market gains(do the math...bad luck or uneducated choice...don't know...just a little salt)) and exponentially more costly additions/projects...good luck brother, I do hope one day you realize how much this house upgrade truly cost and stop kidding yourself.  Not judging, I like nice houses as I self contracted a custom build that I designed...but i'm real about what the cost is vs. the one I upgraded from.

oh, and when someone on this forum suggests hanging out with more successful people...they are obviously referring to the success of their financial health/decisions not the symbol in their driveway.

you are a kid still learning and I am an asshole who is 40, who has the same daydreams as you and I've had them since entering the workforce almost 18 years ago, my choice is to not be as fugal as mustachians but to learn from them as I enjoy a work life balance but strive to tip the scale more towards life (currently working 6 months a year).

Not sure my point, not often do I find a thread I feel like spending time allowing my thoughts to leak through a keyboard...I can tell you want to learn, but maybe you need a better understanding of financial independence...as already stated retiring early could be successfully achieved at 55 and you will still shock the majority of Americans, not all the readers of this board, but certainly the friends you speak of.

Its good to have an aggressive target but better to have a balance that makes you happy now

[Car Jack]

I haven't read every single post, so forgive me if this has already been addressed.  I don't see any 529 or other college targeted account.  I'm older, with one kid finishing private college ($70k a year) and one in community college (surpise...$9k a year for tuition alone).

After our second son, my wife stayed home.  Looking back, it was probably the wrong choice.  I did the math and it's cost us $1.5M in lost wages.  You might want to re-think the whole staying home thing. 

[Mgmny]

I haven't read every single post, so forgive me if this has already been addressed.  I don't see any 529 or other college targeted account.  I'm older, with one kid finishing private college ($70k a year) and one in community college (surpise...$9k a year for tuition alone).

After our second son, my wife stayed home.  Looking back, it was probably the wrong choice.  I did the math and it's cost us $1.5M in lost wages.  You might want to re-think the whole staying home thing.

We have a 529 with $7k in it (he's 1 year old) - we contribute $200 a month - or enough to just be over $100k when he's 18. Both sets of grandparents have committed to putting away money towards college as well, but we don't know to what extent (my parents opened a 529 last Christmas for him and said, "we will contribute every year at christmas, but we don't know how much every year we will give you, but this year it's $1000. My wife's parents just opened one on his 1 year birthday 2 weeks ago, and it's unclear how much they are giving him...).

[Mgmny]

holy shit this was an entertaining read

Happy to do my part! :)

plus all the house upgrade talk (with more than twice the minimum down with these super low rates available with 25% YTD market gains(do the math...bad luck or uneducated choice...don't know...just a little salt))

Not bad luck or bad math - a conscious choice. I wanted my monthly payment to be lower for if/when we drop to 1 income we don't find ourselves in trouble with a $2500 a month payment. Are we leaving money on the table? Yes, but it bought us security and peace of mind, so there's something for that too. At least for me, maybe not for you.

and exponentially more costly additions/projects...good luck brother, I do hope one day you realize how much this house upgrade truly cost and stop kidding yourself.  Not judging, I like nice houses as I self contracted a custom build that I designed...but i'm real about what the cost is vs. the one I upgraded from.

Time will tell... I'm trying really hard not to be naive, but I guess other than the cabinet thing, I don't see that type of thing happening many more times... We'll see though! you could be right, and i might start putting gold plated toilet seats in every room - who knows. On the other hand, everything is brand new in the house, so i shouldn't need to get a new roof, new siding, new windows, new appliances etc.

oh, and when someone on this forum suggests hanging out with more successful people...they are obviously referring to the success of their financial health/decisions not the symbol in their driveway.

Hey, i'm just saying, the majority of high earners are also high spenders, so they aren't always the best role models.that's all i was saying!

you are a kid still learning and I am an asshole who is 40, who has the same daydreams as you and I've had them since entering the workforce almost 18 years ago, my choice is to not be as fugal as mustachians but to learn from them as I enjoy a work life balance but strive to tip the scale more towards life (currently working 6 months a year).

Not sure my point, not often do I find a thread I feel like spending time allowing my thoughts to leak through a keyboard...I can tell you want to learn, but maybe you need a better understanding of financial independence...as already stated retiring early could be successfully achieved at 55 and you will still shock the majority of Americans, not all the readers of this board, but certainly the friends you speak of.

Can you help me with a better understanding of financial independence? My understanding is that it is 25x my annual spending saved up and growing in the market.

Its good to have an aggressive target but better to have a balance that makes you happy now

Happiness is the goal, that is certain.

[Mgmny]

You know what?

I think i found the issue: I think i'm interested in "frugalwoods"/homesteading living. Out in the country with some goats, chickens, big garden, bunch of kids running around, etc. I'm trying to hit my FI number so i can pull the plug on suburbia/city life, and settle down in the country for a "simple" life. Building that life right now with a "conventional" desk job is problematic...

Also, this is probably an incredibly romanticized view of the reality of living on a hobby farm. Who will watch my cows when i want to travel to Thailand for 4 months? Who will go milk the goats at 4am when it's -25 degrees outside? Who will eviscerate the pigs?  Questions with answers that are not super exciting or romantic.

This probably requires some introspection. I have a feeling that the advice will be "you shouldn't have just bought a brand new home in suburbia. You should have purchased an old farm house just outside of town and tried raising a few chickens to see if you even like it." That was my mistake. I think i will focus on building happiness where i'm at and look at future plans for this in 5ish years.

[aristophanes]

It's an age old question.  Who will eviscerate the pigs?  It's not like they will eviscerate themselves.  With respect to milking the goats, here is some advice from Virgil in the third book of the Georgics:

"
Moving on, I tell you to feed the goats on leafy arbutus,
provide them with fresh water, place their pens
out of the wind, facing the winter sun, and midday heat,
while cold Aquarius sets, moistening the vanishing year.
We must guard the goats as well with no less care,
and the profit will be no less, though the fleeces of Miletus
dyed in Tyrian purple may change hands for a higher price.
These produce more offspring, a large supply of milk:
the more the milking pail foams from the drained udders,
the richer the streams will flow when the teats are squeezed.
"

In all seriousness, though, it's ok to have different thoughts from day to day and explore different possibilities.  I think all of us daydream about different possible lives and choices.  Just be prudent and explore where your passion lies.  It sounds like you are in a phase of listening for your vocation and that's just fine.  Who knows, maybe you also want to read ancient Roman poetry that compares and contrasts urban and rural life (it is indeed an age old dilemma)? Then again maybe not.  :)

[arebelspy]

I thought I might like homesteading. I did a 3 month house sit taking care of 2 dogs, a cat, nine chickens, and four alpacas, and decided I didn't want the efforts it would take. Some people enjoy that. I didn't.

Explore what you can of it now. There's no rush.

[robartsd]

When I'm at home, I'd like it to be in the country with about a quarter acre of tended yard around the house and an additional buffer between me and neighbors (farmland worked by others or semi-wild land). I think I'd enjoy spending 10-15 hours a week taking care of it if I were retired. The problem comes when I leave home. I don't think I want to spend 4 months at a time traveling, but I'm sure I'd like to be able to spend 2-4 weeks away at a time. A desire to be able to travel severely limits livestock care needs I'd want to take on. I also would like to be within an easy 30 minute bike ride of community amenities that I use (library, grocery store, park, etc.) which essentially places a limit on the distance to neighbors. Due to these constraints, I think I'd actually be happiest with a large inner ring suburb lot with livestock limited to a small flock of chickens.

[Mgmny]

When I'm at home, I'd like it to be in the country with about a quarter acre of tended yard around the house and an additional buffer between me and neighbors (farmland worked by others or semi-wild land). I think I'd enjoy spending 10-15 hours a week taking care of it if I were retired. The problem comes when I leave home. I don't think I want to spend 4 months at a time traveling, but I'm sure I'd like to be able to spend 2-4 weeks away at a time. A desire to be able to travel severely limits livestock care needs I'd want to take on. I also would like to be within an easy 30 minute bike ride of community amenities that I use (library, grocery store, park, etc.) which essentially places a limit on the distance to neighbors. Due to these constraints, I think I'd actually be happiest with a large inner ring suburb lot with livestock limited to a small flock of chickens.

Yeah,I think you've hit the nail on the head. I don't really expect to spend 4 months in thailand, but if my wife and I are both FI, why not hop in the car and drive to yellowstone for a week or two in the summer? So, that's a real issue with my "homestead" romanticization.

Distance to things is also a concern, but i imagine that if i've got a prius or other PHEV, going "into town" 1-2x a week, shouldn't be a big deal.

[gatortator]

what is it that you want?
https://nwedible.com/mini-money-challenge-occupy-your-brainwhat-you-want-isnt-really-what-you-want/

as for the chickens,  this seemed relevant.
https://nwedible.com/you-absolutely-should-not-get-backyard-chickens/

my spouse killed a rooster for some friends once.  never again.

[Mgmny]

It's an age old question.  Who will eviscerate the pigs?  It's not like they will eviscerate themselves.  With respect to milking the goats, here is some advice from Virgil in the third book of the Georgics:

"
...."


In all seriousness, though, it's ok to have different thoughts from day to day and explore different possibilities.  I think all of us daydream about different possible lives and choices.  Just be prudent and explore where your passion lies.  It sounds like you are in a phase of listening for your vocation and that's just fine.  Who knows, maybe you also want to read ancient Roman poetry that compares and contrasts urban and rural life (it is indeed an age old dilemma)? Then again maybe not.  :)

Ha, so i sorta said the evisceration of hogs as a joke, but it's a real thing. Not exactly "romantic" and as playful as I make it out to be in my "daydreams" as you say. Sure some people make it a bit ritualistic with prayers, poems, thanks to the earth beforehand, but still... I don't think i presently have the stomach for slaughtering larger animals like pigs. Even chickens might make me queasy the first few times. I did work with cadavers for 4+hours a week for a year, but a dead human and a living pig are still worlds apart...

Thanks for the poem!

[Mgmny]

what is it that you want?
https://nwedible.com/mini-money-challenge-occupy-your-brainwhat-you-want-isnt-really-what-you-want/

as for the chickens,  this seemed relevant.
https://nwedible.com/you-absolutely-should-not-get-backyard-chickens/

my spouse killed a rooster for some friends once.  never again.

First website was really cool. I will definitely employ that chart!

Second website: killing chickens doesn't sound super exciting, and is probably not fun, but I do think it would be part of the experience of the hobby farm/homestead/small farm. I'm sure after the first few times, you get used to it. In Tim Ferriss's book "The 4 hour chef" he talks about killing an animal before eating it so you appreciate the ultimate sacrifice they make for you. While, I can't say I have found a chicken or pig to kill to get this feeling, I can say that I take it to heart and do absolutely everything I can to not waste meat product in my everyday life. Definitely not the same, but I do have a respect for the sacrifice the animal gives, and I think that I would be OK with the process, it's just not "romantic" like my visions of wide pastures, kids laughing playing, and the "simple" life.

[Mgmny]

I thought I might like homesteading. I did a 3 month house sit taking care of 2 dogs, a cat, nine chickens, and four alpacas, and decided I didn't want the efforts it would take. Some people enjoy that. I didn't.

Explore what you can of it now. There's no rush.

Good points. I could hate it. Like I said - milking a goat when it's negative 30 degrees every day sounds sorta miserable.

[Metalcat]

I've lived on a farm.
The brutal tasks, like slaughter, become pretty routine pretty quickly. It's the day to day drudgery that are so taxing and "unromantic", and it's not the few months of travel that's the problem, you can actually find people to farm-sit for long periods sometimes, it's more the inability to take a weekend away, or an overnight, or sometimes even just when an afternoon activity goes long.

When a small ecosystem of flora/fauna depend on you maintaining a schedule...well shit, you might as well be working at that point.

If the goal is freedom, then farming is really only compatible with a particular version of freedom.

That said, remember when I mentioned that you can find people to farm sit for lengths of time? Well, that could be you. You could get your farming itch scratched by providing relief for other farmers around the world.

Now that might be romantic.

[arebelspy]

If the goal is freedom, then farming is really only compatible with a particular version of freedom.

Haha, exactly. It gives you the freedom to farm.

If you don't want to work for "the man" it's a very low cost way to get free of that. But it doesn't give you FIRE flexibility in the way that a "25x expenses without having to do labor (like farming)" portfolio does.

[robartsd]

what is it that you want?
https://nwedible.com/mini-money-challenge-occupy-your-brainwhat-you-want-isnt-really-what-you-want/

as for the chickens,  this seemed relevant.
https://nwedible.com/you-absolutely-should-not-get-backyard-chickens/

my spouse killed a rooster for some friends once.  never again.

I understand that it's not economical to raise your own chickens merely for the eggs unless you cull the flock. It is possible to outsource the butchering.

If I were keeping chickens, they'd be pastured and I'd buy cheaper feed, so my costs wouldn't be nearly as high as that article. I'm more interested in the benefits the chickens provide to the garden (they can turn bugs and vegetation scraps into fertilizer) than the fresh eggs. I'd probably start with 2-3 birds the first year, then add to the flock 1-2 birds at a time. This probably would lead to a flock of about a dozen hens (not a problem on my current lot ~5 miles from downtown) producing about 3-4 eggs/day if I never cull the old hens. Costs would be comparable to organic free range eggs (though with a lot of extra work taking care of them and I wouldn't be buying organic for the supplemental feed).

[Dicey]

what is it that you want?
https://nwedible.com/mini-money-challenge-occupy-your-brainwhat-you-want-isnt-really-what-you-want/

Back in the olden days, Erica used to post here. She hasn't posted for ages and her website seems to have gone dormant. Anybody know what happened to her?

[charis]

what is it that you want?
https://nwedible.com/mini-money-challenge-occupy-your-brainwhat-you-want-isnt-really-what-you-want/

Back in the olden days, Erica used to post here. She hasn't posted for ages and her website seems to have gone dormant. Anybody know what happened to her?

I agree with the article, to the point where I question most purchases, except the crock pot.  The point about more free time and less activities might be true regardless, but a slow cocker is relatively inexpensive, I love a good crock pot soup or stew, and I'd still use it even if I had all the time in the world to make a home-cooked meal.

[Telecaster]

Back in the olden days, Erica used to post here. She hasn't posted for ages and her website seems to have gone dormant. Anybody know what happened to her?

@Dicey Being a gardener in the PNW myself, I found her website both inspirational and invaluable and followed NW Edible on Facebook, which also went dormant for a time.   She reappeared briefly, and said she'd been through a bout of depression.   She did a few updates to her website and this disappeared again.  As far as I can tell the FB page has been deleted. 

[Mgmny]

I've lived on a farm.
The brutal tasks, like slaughter, become pretty routine pretty quickly. It's the day to day drudgery that are so taxing and "unromantic", and it's not the few months of travel that's the problem, you can actually find people to farm-sit for long periods sometimes, it's more the inability to take a weekend away, or an overnight, or sometimes even just when an afternoon activity goes long.

When a small ecosystem of flora/fauna depend on you maintaining a schedule...well shit, you might as well be working at that point.

If the goal is freedom, then farming is really only compatible with a particular version of freedom.

That said, remember when I mentioned that you can find people to farm sit for lengths of time? Well, that could be you. You could get your farming itch scratched by providing relief for other farmers around the world.

Now that might be romantic.

I tend to agree that the brutal stuff i'll get over reasonably quickly. That's how human anatomy lab was after a few days.

I've looked at a lot of homesteading websites in the last few days, and it does seem like leaving is somewhat of a huge issue for many of them. Chickens can be ok for a few days, but if you are milking 2x a day goats/cows then you are screwed.  A lot of people said it was harder to leave their gardens than the chickens due to watering/pest/weed concerns too.

Freedom is important to me, so this whole flora/fauna thing has got me a bit concerned.

I will definitely check out farm-sitting. I reached out to a local farm yesterday. I'm sure they already have infrastructure in place for these things (neighbors, etc), but maybe they know of others that need some temporary help. I'll check them out!

[Mgmny]

If the goal is freedom, then farming is really only compatible with a particular version of freedom.

Haha, exactly. It gives you the freedom to farm.

If you don't want to work for "the man" it's a very low cost way to get free of that. But it doesn't give you FIRE flexibility in the way that a "25x expenses without having to do labor (like farming)" portfolio does.

Yeah, i don't think i'd be super interested in turning it into any type of retail/commercial operation like i see online. Just more of a self-reliance thing just how FI is self reliance.

But, it is looking like i would be trading in a lot of freedom for this, so i'm not sure if that's really what i want....

[Mgmny]

what is it that you want?
https://nwedible.com/mini-money-challenge-occupy-your-brainwhat-you-want-isnt-really-what-you-want/

as for the chickens,  this seemed relevant.
https://nwedible.com/you-absolutely-should-not-get-backyard-chickens/

my spouse killed a rooster for some friends once.  never again.

I understand that it's not economical to raise your own chickens merely for the eggs unless you cull the flock. It is possible to outsource the butchering.

If I were keeping chickens, they'd be pastured and I'd buy cheaper feed, so my costs wouldn't be nearly as high as that article. I'm more interested in the benefits the chickens provide to the garden (they can turn bugs and vegetation scraps into fertilizer) than the fresh eggs. I'd probably start with 2-3 birds the first year, then add to the flock 1-2 birds at a time. This probably would lead to a flock of about a dozen hens (not a problem on my current lot ~5 miles from downtown) producing about 3-4 eggs/day if I never cull the old hens. Costs would be comparable to organic free range eggs (though with a lot of extra work taking care of them and I wouldn't be buying organic for the supplemental feed).

Yeah, i'd almost certainly cull the flock. Gotta eat something!! Not interested in raising birds at $100 a pop!!

[Mgmny]

what is it that you want?
https://nwedible.com/mini-money-challenge-occupy-your-brainwhat-you-want-isnt-really-what-you-want/

Back in the olden days, Erica used to post here. She hasn't posted for ages and her website seems to have gone dormant. Anybody know what happened to her?

Hey that's cool!

Back in the olden days, Erica used to post here. She hasn't posted for ages and her website seems to have gone dormant. Anybody know what happened to her?

@Dicey Being a gardener in the PNW myself, I found her website both inspirational and invaluable and followed NW Edible on Facebook, which also went dormant for a time.   She reappeared briefly, and said she'd been through a bout of depression.   She did a few updates to her website and this disappeared again.  As far as I can tell the FB page has been deleted.

That's much less cool... :( I hope she's OK.

[Mgmny]

what is it that you want?
https://nwedible.com/mini-money-challenge-occupy-your-brainwhat-you-want-isnt-really-what-you-want/

Back in the olden days, Erica used to post here. She hasn't posted for ages and her website seems to have gone dormant. Anybody know what happened to her?

I agree with the article, to the point where I question most purchases, except the crock pot.  The point about more free time and less activities might be true regardless, but a slow cocker is relatively inexpensive, I love a good crock pot soup or stew, and I'd still use it even if I had all the time in the world to make a home-cooked meal.

But have you tried the instant pot?

[charis]

what is it that you want?
https://nwedible.com/mini-money-challenge-occupy-your-brainwhat-you-want-isnt-really-what-you-want/

Back in the olden days, Erica used to post here. She hasn't posted for ages and her website seems to have gone dormant. Anybody know what happened to her?

I agree with the article, to the point where I question most purchases, except the crock pot.  The point about more free time and less activities might be true regardless, but a slow cooker is relatively inexpensive, I love a good crock pot soup or stew, and I'd still use it even if I had all the time in the world to make a home-cooked meal.

But have you tried the instant pot?

No, I know people love it, but I don't see the point in adding another kitchen appliance to fill a whole that doesn't currently exist.