Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer

[beltim]

I have a huge problem with public SERVANTS making too much money. What is too much? adjusted for years of service and exp, i believe anything more than 110% of general population (age/exp bracket) income is too much. in fact i think 80% of general population median income might be a more reasonable number.

So you think a lawyer, doctor, or engineer employed by the government should be limited to making 80% of $40k  = $32 k?

US Median income is about $40k: http://www.bls.gov/news.release/wkyeng.nr0.htm

[anisotropy]

good point beltim. but i have to say yes, yes they should make that.

you might argue it's crazy and no lawyer/doc/engg would ever do that. well, then we need to sell it to them.

we could make it so that the govt would pay these guys' tuition and living expenses, lol maybe even sponsor their siblings for something compeletely unrelated.

provide them with housing and perks. build an image of glory and honor, like how they currenly do it for the military.

[vivophoenix]

so instead of cash, you would provide other benefits.  im sure the public servant tenements you suggest are way more awesome than anything a private dr making >100k could ever provide on their own.

[vivophoenix]

you ever notice the quality of person they get in the military with their benefits?

[beltim]

good point beltim. but i have to say yes, yes they should make that.

you might argue it's crazy and no lawyer/doc/engg would ever do that. well, then we need to sell it to them.

we could make it so that the govt would pay these guys' tuition and living expenses, lol maybe even sponsor their siblings for something compeletely unrelated.

provide them with housing and perks. build an image of glory and honor, like how they currenly do it for the military.

Yeah, that's crazy.  No "might" about it.  If you try to pay people 10-20% of their fair market value, you won't get anyone who's any good - at least not for more than a year while they're looking for jobs that they can actually feed their family with.  And you might not get anyone at all - how does your system work if no one even applies for the job?

[anisotropy]

vivophoenix,
i would say currently Murica's military is the finest in the world. Not that it directly applies to what I am proposing, I am just saying it's possible to do it.

beltim,
They won't need to "feed" their families, it's part of the package. And no, they can't back out of the contract, unless they pay back a massive amount of money for their room and board, tution, and any sort of expense/cost they incurred during their employment with a ridiculous markup.

[beltim]

beltim,
They won't need to "feed" their families, it's part of the package. And no, they can't back out of the contract, unless they pay back a massive amount of money for their room and board, tution, and any sort of expense/cost they incurred during their employment with a ridiculous markup.

My point is that you won't get anyone to sign that contract to start with.

[beltim]

we could make it so that the govt would pay these guys' tuition and living expenses, lol maybe even sponsor their siblings for something compeletely unrelated.

provide them with housing and perks. build an image of glory and honor, like how they currenly do it for the military.

It's wildly economically inefficient to do that.

[anisotropy]

we could make it so that the govt would pay these guys' tuition and living expenses, lol maybe even sponsor their siblings for something compeletely unrelated.

provide them with housing and perks. build an image of glory and honor, like how they currenly do it for the military.

It's wildly economically inefficient to do that.

i will admit i dont know a thing about public admin, but i am not convinced.... why would it be inefficient?

[vivophoenix]

vivophoenix,
i would say currently Murica's military is the finest in the world. Not that it directly applies to what I am proposing, I am just saying it's possible to do it.

beltim,
They won't need to "feed" their families, it's part of the package. And no, they can't back out of the contract, unless they pay back a massive amount of money for their room and board, tution, and any sort of expense/cost they incurred during their employment with a ridiculous markup.

based on what?

[vivophoenix]

also if drs/lawyers cared more about the image of glory honor, and housing and tuition; why not just IDk go into the military?

[beltim]

we could make it so that the govt would pay these guys' tuition and living expenses, lol maybe even sponsor their siblings for something compeletely unrelated.

provide them with housing and perks. build an image of glory and honor, like how they currenly do it for the military.

It's wildly economically inefficient to do that.

i will admit i dont know a thing about public admin, but i am not convinced.... why would it be inefficient?

Because people value things differently.  Some people like to spend more of their money on housing, some on food, some on cars.  Some people even like to save up for early retirement!  Now, if you had to provide a certain level of housing, food, and transportation, you'd probably aim at some average.  That means that in each category you're paying more than the people value the benefit.  In other words, unless every one of those employees valued each of the benefits at market value or higher, it would be more efficient to give them cash and let them decide how to use it.

Put another way, if the government providing these things were efficient, why wouldn't private companies do it?  There are tons of companies big enough to provide economies of scale, but companies don't run dormitories because there's no benefit to it.

[anisotropy]

i see what you mean, yes you are right, it'd be inefficient. The key then, is to make people value the same things..... which goes back to the brand/image building.

the holy grail of all dictators....

That being said, is my model really any less efficient with the current one? You might have noticed what I proposed shared some traits with the failed Soviet system, what makes me think my proposal would work?

Recent rise of "unpaid internship", the high degree of specialization in our society, and advancement in tech.

Find desperate and willing candidates. Give them hope and food and an Ideal. Make them highly specialized in a few tasks ie, a GI doc would know next to nothing about joints and such. 

Using med as an example: After diagnosis these "specialist" would upload their individual findings to a machine. Using something similar to google search and keywords the machine would give a list of possible final diagnosis. How do we know which is right now that we dont have a "real" physician? Stats. Yup. Sounds crude and heartless, but one might be surprised how accurate it could be....

Now our recruits are ready to provide more than they cost by continuing cranking out services, we had just built an assembly line where parts can be replaced with almost limitless supplies, think of all the unemployed people, 200 million in China alone.

back to the original topic or are you going to continue ripping holes in my theory :)

[vivophoenix]

if its so easy why not link webmd with an online prescription service and cut out the middle man altogether?

but the ral question is, who starts using these services first?

would it be the poor?

those without insurance, or the means to afford a 'real' dr"?

[beltim]

That being said, is my model really any less efficient with the current one?

Yes.

Find desperate and willing candidates. Give them hope and food and an Ideal. Make them highly specialized in a few tasks ie, a GI doc would know next to nothing about joints and such. 
…
Now our recruits are ready to provide more than they cost by continuing cranking out services, we had just built an assembly line where parts can be replaced with almost limitless supplies, think of all the unemployed people, 200 million in China alone.

As a jobs program, this is fine.  I would have been in support of this sort of program during the great recession.  But as a replacement of highly educated, highly qualified people who make high-level decisions in the government?  No, that would be terrible.

[Elyse]

The more benefits you offer, the more people you have to pay to help manage those benefits. 

So, you are paying someone to help give someone else benefits. 

Just because they get paid less doesn't mean the government is spending less money on them.

______

On the other side of this issue - if someone tells you that they will always pay for your food but you have to eat what they give you or they will simply pay you more for you to get it yourself and make your own choices....

Why would anyone pick the side with less freedom?

[anisotropy]

Believe it or not Diagnosic statistics is actually a subject taught in med school, physicians rely on it quite often to come up with diagnosis.

Why would anyone pick the side with less freedom?

for security of course....as we all did since 2001.

i know i can not convince anyone, but i would be very interested in making some calculations (for efficiency and benefits cost) on my own or if someone can point me to a paper or something that would be great.

The goal is not trying to produce highly qualified and/or highly educated professionals, I am looking for the point where the public sector can be self-sustaining (produce more than cost) and still provide "good enough" services.

[Elyse]

The goal is not trying to produce highly qualified and/or highly educated professionals, I am looking for the point where the public sector can be self-sustaining (produce more than cost) and still provide "good enough" services.

Why in the world would you want our teachers and doctors to become "good enough"?  That means millions of kids will get a horrible education (because on the average the school system would be fine) and millions of people would receive subpar healthcare. 

We haven't even touched when public lawyers get paid less.  They already get trampled by private sector.  Lets make double-sure all people that can't afford a defense will have the most shitty representation possible!

And I have a distinct feeling that the majority of the people on this website do not like trading freedom for a small amount of security.

Stick your head in the freezer.  Stick your feet in the oven.  On the average, your body temp would be "good enough".

[anisotropy]

good point about lawyers Elyse. Are the public defenders today really bad compared to the prosecuting side?

By good enough I mean no worse than services standards that an average citizen (student / patient / etc) can reasonably utilise today. Our education system for an avg kid today is well... i won't say horrible, but i imagine many people would say it's not that great.

The students that graduate from my proposed education system (teaching methods and specialized subjects) should be a good match to my proposed public work system; it's like a self-sustaining factory producing goods that can replace its own parts using those produced goods.

I understand my proposals require some pretty large fundamental changes to our current North American society, however I really believe that my proposed system, which is supported by a large public sector ( > 33% work force?) can provide fast, reliable, and adequate services to most people in a economical way.

No, I don't have the numbers to back any of these up .... the closest (public employees) we've got is prob the nordic model or the failed soviet attemps.

As for freedom vs security, well...
http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21582525-war-terror-haunts-america-still-it-should-recover-some-its-most-cherished
http://www.timesunion.com/opinion/article/Editorial-Freedom-versus-security-5415179.php

I welcome further discussions but perhaps we should start our own thread.