The Money Mustache Community
Around the Internet => Antimustachian Wall of Shame and Comedy => Topic started by: MoneyCat on July 23, 2014, 04:03:55 PM
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I stopped by the credit union the other day to make a deposit and in the course of idle chitchat I mentioned to the clerk that I am a schoolteacher. She said she was surprised because I didn't have a personal loan. I asked her to explain and she said that most of the teachers with memberships at the credit union take out personal loans to pay for their expenses like mortgage/rent, utilities, etc. for the Summer while they are furloughed for two months.
This just stunned me. Now I know that many school districts don't offer teachers the option of a 12-month pay schedule instead of a 10-month schedule (which I wouldn't do anyway, because that's like giving the school district a free two month interest-free loan), but are people really so shortsighted that they can't save up some money during the year to cover expenses for the Summer? Do they really have no savings at all? Now all these teachers have to pay back their loans at 9.9% interest and probably continue the cycle for the next Summer. It just boggles my mind.
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So you mean you didn't know these teachers must have stories of expansive, expensive vacations to share with their coworkers upon return?
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Well, come on now. I'm a teacher, so I know the pay isn't great, but it isn't hard to save up money to cover expenses for the Summer if you brown bag your lunch everyday, ride your bicycle to work, shop at wholesale clubs and thrift shops instead of retail shopping, etc.
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My spouse teaches high school in a district that shifted from a 12-month calendar for pay to a 10-month calendar. No big deal for us, but it was pretty predictable that a bunch of folks ran into trouble in the second month without a paycheck. And many of these are two-income households. They simply have no precautionary savings. It is kind of funny, that in this forum people debate how much of a cash cushion to maintain, and how much to rely on long-term investments for unexpected expenses. In the rest of the world, many people have no cash cushions, nor can they do even basic planning to be able to cover EXPECTED expenses. Oy.
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Just imagine what would happen with some people if their employers tried paying them an entire year's salary upfront on a single paycheck at the start of the school/fiscal year. :)
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Every district I've work in requires pay over 12 months.
At my current smaller district I asked if I could do 10 months and she said no based on data from districts that do have 10 months and the issues you speak of. Just crazy that educators can't budget for a two month gap.
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Just imagine what would happen with some people if their employers tried paying them an entire year's salary upfront on a single paycheck at the start of the school/fiscal year. :)
We get paid once a month by my school district during the year and I've heard that a lot of teachers have problems with that. One time, the school district had to wait an extra week to give out paychecks and most of the teachers just about had a heart attack. They were complaining about paying bills, etc. I was fine. Because I adopted the Mustachian lifestyle, I could actually go for years now without getting paid (not that I would want to). Life is so much easier when you give yourself that cushion, but our society tells everyone that they are supposed to project an image that costs them every penny they have. It's really sad.
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Well, come on now. I'm a teacher, so I know the pay isn't great, but it isn't hard to save up money to cover expenses for the Summer if you brown bag your lunch everyday, ride your bicycle to work, shop at wholesale clubs and thrift shops instead of retail shopping, etc.
Huh, the average teacher pay in my district is over $77k per year, and they just went on strike for more money (and other things once they get the money terms agreed to).
Even so, some teachers were crying to the press about how they were going into debt for our children because of the 7 days no pay. And yes most teachers here are dual income.
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We get paid once a month by my school district during the year and I've heard that a lot of teachers have problems with that. One time, the school district had to wait an extra week to give out paychecks and most of the teachers just about had a heart attack.
Oh goodness, that happened to me, too. We were getting paid biweekly, but because of budget/fiscal issues at the state, the school didn't get its regular disbursement on time, and so paychecks were delayed by a couple days... which made, like, no difference to me, because, you know, I don't keep my checking account at zero. Yet a number of other teachers in my school---otherwise bright, intelligent, thoughtful people---were flipping out. It was odd.
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Huh, the average teacher pay in my district is over $77k per year, and they just went on strike for more money (and other things once they get the money terms agreed to).
Even so, some teachers were crying to the press about how they were going into debt for our children because of the 7 days no pay. And yes most teachers here are dual income.
You must live in Beverly Hills or something because I've been teaching for a decade and I make nowhere near that much money from that job (combined with my SO's pay and my side hustles, we make significantly more, of course). I have heard of Baby Boomers in some places who have been teaching for 25 years making that kind of money, but nobody of the current generation will ever be that comfortable. For example, I have had my salary cut every year for the past five years because our state decided to increase our share of payments into the broken pension system PLUS increase our share of payments for our health insurance. We had no contract for two years before that, so wages were frozen and then our oh-so-powerful Labor Union was able to get us a whopping 1% pay increase with no retroactive pay, which of course is less than the rate of inflation. (I am so glad I spent all that money on Union dues for that.) Overall, my pay has decreased by about 20% since 2008. And we won't get pensions either at the rate things are going, so I have been planning my retirement differently.
At least I get to work 60 hour work weeks during the school year for all this luxury.
I tell young people not to go into teaching unless they are already FI and just want something to do for a couple years before going to grad school. As much as I enjoy teaching, the finances just don't make sense anymore.
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Huh, the average teacher pay in my district is over $77k per year, and they just went on strike for more money (and other things once they get the money terms agreed to).
Even so, some teachers were crying to the press about how they were going into debt for our children because of the 7 days no pay. And yes most teachers here are dual income.
You must live in Beverly Hills or something because I've been teaching for a decade and I make nowhere near that much money from that job (combined with my SO's pay and my side hustles, we make significantly more, of course). I have heard of Baby Boomers in some places who have been teaching for 25 years making that kind of money, but nobody of the current generation will ever be that comfortable. For example, I have had my salary cut every year for the past five years because our state decided to increase our share of payments into the broken pension system PLUS increase our share of payments for our health insurance. We had no contract for two years before that, so wages were frozen and then our oh-so-powerful Labor Union was able to get us a whopping 1% pay increase with no retroactive pay, which of course is less than the rate of inflation. (I am so glad I spent all that money on Union dues for that.) Overall, my pay has decreased by about 20% since 2008. And we won't get pensions either at the rate things are going, so I have been planning my retirement differently.
At least I get to work 60 hour work weeks during the school year for all this luxury.
I tell young people not to go into teaching unless they are already FI and just want something to do for a couple years before going to grad school. As much as I enjoy teaching, the finances just don't make sense anymore.
Yeah, this is Canada.. And that is the avererage. My main point is that people at $77k per year, or even the starting rate of $62k (I think) should be able to save funds to cover for a strike that has been planned for 18 months now.
It gets better, here is the rant:
The high school and junior high teachers work 60 hr weeks easy, but elementaries are lucky if the teachers work 40.. The have been on quasi strike action for several years and put in 7 hr a day, 5.5 to 6 at school, little from home because they refuse to give homework..only mark tests..."who do you expect to prepare it and mark it?" Said one teacher to me when I asked about extra work as a help for my son... The strike action means that they don't do after school extra activity, except for one or two teachers with volleyball, and refuse to do field trips or back to school parent nights. Argh! No report cards end of last year either.
It may not be so bad in other districts..others may be working the long hours..
The worst is that they aren't negotiating for better new teacher terms. Teachers can retire and get full pension. And then they can be on call as paid substitutes. All good so far. But, once they retire,_ they keep their seniority, so no new teachers trying to gain experience as on call sub's have a chance of hours or work. And they quit. Seniority should reset to zero once you are drawing a full pension.. Which are quite large here.
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I had an interesting conversation with a colleague in my former district.
Our district closed out the fiscal year on the last day of school. So teachers received five summer checks at once (May 31, June 15 & 30, and July 15 & 30).
My wife and I had ours direct deposited. So May 31 we looked rich. And we made it through to August 15 with no problems.
However, I had a colleague who declined direct deposit. She wanted to have paper checks in hand to deposit in person.
Here's the kicker: she didn't trust herself not to spend money in her account. So she hand delivered checks to the bank on the normal payroll dates. And she kept the checks in her purse until deposit day.
She was walking around with 10k in checks in her purse. And going to the bank on May 31, June 15, etc. to deposit them "on time." Because she couldn't trust herself not to spent it all at once.
Sigh.
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Well, come on now. I'm a teacher, so I know the pay isn't great, but it isn't hard to save up money to cover expenses for the Summer if you brown bag your lunch everyday, ride your bicycle to work, shop at wholesale clubs and thrift shops instead of retail shopping, etc.
Huh, the average teacher pay in my district is over $77k per year, and they just went on strike for more money (and other things once they get the money terms agreed to).
Even so, some teachers were crying to the press about how they were going into debt for our children because of the 7 days no pay. And yes most teachers here are dual income.
Wow 77k! I have my master's degree and make 38k on a 10 month pay scale (unfortunately despite being a 10 month employee I also put in 2-3 weeks of unpaid mandatory professional development during the summer).
I see many fellow teachers run into the same problem mentioned by the OP. Most of these teachers use 0-low interest loans aka "cash accounts" at our state credit union to get by during the 2 months of summer when we're technically not employed. As a single and relatively mustachian dude, it's no problem getting by for a couple months (or couple years) without a paycheck. Teachers that make the same salary as me but have families may not have the same luxury of saving ahead of time as I do. With that being said, most teachers could definitely do a better job of planning for the 2 months without a paycheck and improving financial awareness in general, but I don't think teachers' financial acumen, or lack thereof, is that different from the general population.
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I had an interesting conversation with a colleague in my former district.
Our district closed out the fiscal year on the last day of school. So teachers received five summer checks at once (May 31, June 15 & 30, and July 15 & 30).
My wife and I had ours direct deposited. So May 31 we looked rich. And we made it through to August 15 with no problems.
However, I had a colleague who declined direct deposit. She wanted to have paper checks in hand to deposit in person.
Here's the kicker: she didn't trust herself not to spend money in her account. So she hand delivered checks to the bank on the normal payroll dates. And she kept the checks in her purse until deposit day.
She was walking around with 10k in checks in her purse. And going to the bank on May 31, June 15, etc. to deposit them "on time." Because she couldn't trust herself not to spent it all at once.
Sigh.
So, obviously that's not something that you or I would need to do---but if she realizes that she's so irresponsible that she'd just spend all the money if it were in her account, then not depositing her checks is a smart thing to do. I mean, it does SEEM a bit silly (as does carrying them around in her purse), but she's exercising some amount of control and self-restraint---she knows herself well enough not to trust herself. It's a small first step on the road to greater responsibility (and hopefully, Mustachianism!)
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This just stunned me. Now I know that many school districts don't offer teachers the option of a 12-month pay schedule instead of a 10-month schedule (which I wouldn't do anyway, because that's like giving the school district a free two month interest-free loan), but are people really so shortsighted that they can't save up some money during the year to cover expenses for the Summer?
Early disclaimer: These things vary widely from place to place.
When I started teaching, all teachers had a choice: You're going to be paid X amount. Do you want it divided into 10 paychecks or 12 paychecks? It's kind of like saying, "Here's a large pizza. Do you want it cut into 10 or 12 slices?"
Then the legislature -- who simply cannot see a good idea that's working fine and leave it alone -- said that was unfair to teachers. Said it was unfair to "hold their money" 'til summer, even if they'd chosen it. So EVERYONE was forced to have 10 paychecks, even the people who can't hold onto a dollar and would've preferred equal payments.
So our credit union -- an excellent institution -- stepped in to help. They allow teachers to have a portion of each month's pay to be "siphoned off" into a special summer savings account. That savings account cannot be accessed without some trouble /going into the credit union and doing some paperwork, so people aren't likely to spend it. But it provides a "paycheck" in the summer months for the people who prefer to have those equal payments. Some teachers say that they spend more during the summer months (vacations, lunch with friends, outings for the kids, whatever), so they choose to put MORE into the savings account so their "paycheck" goes up during the summer. While I don't use this summer-savings program myself, LOTS of people do, especially two-teacher families.
I have never heard of a teacher taking out a loan for the summer months. That is not a financially stable move, and most teachers I know are fairly frugal people -- at least most of the time.
Different but related topics: The credit union also allows teachers to arrange their mortgages or car loans so that they pay more during the school year and make no payments during June and July.
May hits teachers hard; because we aren't paid in June and July, we have TRIPLE deductions removed from the May check -- so if you're paying $400/month for family insurance, you pay $1200 in the month of May. I've always thought they ought to be a little smarter about that detail -- cutting the last check of the school year is kind of like setting people up for failure. Thing is, people forget that and then are surprised when suddenly their May check is small.
We get paid once a month by my school district during the year and I've heard that a lot of teachers have problems with that. One time, the school district had to wait an extra week to give out paychecks and most of the teachers just about had a heart attack. They were complaining about paying bills, etc. I was fine. Because I adopted the Mustachian lifestyle, I could actually go for years now without getting paid (not that I would want to). Life is so much easier when you give yourself that cushion, but our society tells everyone that they are supposed to project an image that costs them every penny they have. It's really sad.
We had a problem a few years ago:
When I began teaching, we started school mid-August and finished mid-June. We teachers received a small check at the end of August, full checks throughout the year, and a small check at the end of June. It was fair.
Then we changed the school calendar and began school in early August and our kids graduated before Memorial Day. It was a good choice because our high schoolers could finish first semester before Christmas, meaning that they didn't come back in January for a few days of class and then exams. We teachers received full checks August - May. It was fair.
Then our illustrious legislature decided this calendar, which everyone liked, was not good. So we reverted to the earlier mid-August start . . . but somehow our paychecks didn't change back. So we were still receiving a full check each month August - May. Same amount of money, but the schedule was a bit off. Not a big deal for most teachers, who worked the full year; however, it meant that a person who retired mid-year, or a person who left unexpectedly DID walk away with two weeks of unearned pay. Multiply this times the whole state, and you have some poor stewardship of tax payer money. However, when they announced that they were going to change the system and make it right, MANY people complained that it would be problematic for them.
Huh, the average teacher pay in my district is over $77k per year, and they just went on strike for more money (and other things once they get the money terms agreed to).
Keep in mind that this figure is not typical of the average teacher salary. With 23 years experience, I'm at about 43K.
The worst is that they aren't negotiating for better new teacher terms. Teachers can retire and get full pension. And then they can be on call as paid substitutes. All good so far. But, once they retire,_ they keep their seniority, so no new teachers trying to gain experience as on call sub's have a chance of hours or work. And they quit. Seniority should reset to zero once you are drawing a full pension.. Which are quite large here.
Seniority doesn't get a person a sub job. Sub jobs are typically assigned according to who's available at the last minute. However, the reality is that when a teacher PLANS to be out of school (doctor's appointment or whatever), she tends to request a sub she knows -- and often that's a retired friend, someone we know has good classroom management skills.
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I wish we could still get paid in 10 month chunks, it would be so nice to have more of the money up front. My district stopped offering the 10 month option so time before I started working here for the exact problems outlined here.
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Huh, the average teacher pay in my district is over $77k per year, and they just went on strike for more money (and other things once they get the money terms agreed to).
Keep in mind that this figure is not typical of the average teacher salary. With 23 years experience, I'm at about 43K.
I think pay varies wildly by state, as well. My mom has been teaching for 11 years now, with a master's degree, and will break $80k this year. But we're in CA, so HCOL, and she also teaches in a low-performing district so the pay is higher. She's paid over 12 months, I believe. I also believe they're given the option for 10 or 12.
I did the math and figured out that if she worked (and was paid for) a full year, she would make more money than I do. It was quite a shock to both of us! I told her that I would gladly take a 1/6 pay cut to have summers off and three weeks of vacation at Christmas (plus a week off each at Thanksgiving and Easter). I've never analyzed how the hours come out though...she probably does work more hours per year than I do now that I'm in a 45-ish hours per week job instead of the 60-80 hours I used to work. Not to mention the emotional hardship of working in a low-performing school, where she wants to help the kids so badly but is powerless over their circumstances at home.
{Edited because my grammar was atrocious}
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I had an interesting conversation with a colleague in my former district.
Our district closed out the fiscal year on the last day of school. So teachers received five summer checks at once (May 31, June 15 & 30, and July 15 & 30).
My wife and I had ours direct deposited. So May 31 we looked rich. And we made it through to August 15 with no problems.
However, I had a colleague who declined direct deposit. She wanted to have paper checks in hand to deposit in person.
Here's the kicker: she didn't trust herself not to spend money in her account. So she hand delivered checks to the bank on the normal payroll dates. And she kept the checks in her purse until deposit day.
She was walking around with 10k in checks in her purse. And going to the bank on May 31, June 15, etc. to deposit them "on time." Because she couldn't trust herself not to spent it all at once.
Sigh.
While that would be pretty depressing to hear, I admire her knowing that she couldn't be trusted with all of it in the bank. I know a number of people who do "Christmas clubs" or "weekly savings plans" or whatever because if it was in their regular account, there would be no money left at Christmas/the last day of the month. While it perplexes me, it definitely beats being overdrawn. And I have literally seen these people withdraw from their accounts until they are in the single digits until the next payday. As in, I hope nothing breaks, because you don't even have enough money to replace a windshield wiper.
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I think pay varies wildly by state, as well. My mom has been teaching for 11 years now, with a master's degree, and will break $80k this year. But we're in CA, so HCOL, and she also teaches in a low-performing district so the pay is higher. She's paid over 12 months, I believe. I also believe they're given the option for 10 or 12
I did the math and figured out that if she worked (and was paid for) a full year, she would make more money than I do. It was quite a shock to both of us! I told her that I would gladly take a 1/6 pay cut to have summers off and three weeks of vacation at Christmas (plus a week off each at Thanksgiving and Easter). I've never analyzed how the hours come out though...she probably does work more hours per year than I do now that I'm in a 45-ish hours per week job instead of the 60-80 hours I used to work. Not to mention the emotional hardship of working in a low-performing school, where she wants to help the kids so badly but is powerless over their circumstances at home.
{Edited because my grammar was atrocious}
Wow! I want to teach in California if they give three weeks off for Christmas and a week off for Thanksgiving! Like most teachers, I get one week off for Christmas/New Year's and three days off for Thanksgiving.
Thanks for pointing out the emotional hardship of working in a low-performing school. I spent four years teaching impoverished inner city kids and it was pretty horrific. I was assaulted by students regularly and ended up in urgent care twice for injuries. I faced hours of racist and sexual verbal abuse per day from students (and administrators) and had to learn how to control situations where groups of students backed me up against the blackboard and tried to antagonize me into striking them so they could get me fired. Administrators did not punish students, because they were worried about bad press and (especially) loss of funding for suspending students. I also had to attend far too many funerals for students who were killed in gang violence. In the end, I left for another district, because it just wasn't worth it from a physical, mental, or financial point of view.
Honestly, it makes zero sense to become a schoolteacher. Just get a degree in business instead. Then you get lots of money and you don't even have to be particularly smart.
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I think pay varies wildly by state, as well. My mom has been teaching for 11 years now, with a master's degree, and will break $80k this year. But we're in CA, so HCOL, and she also teaches in a low-performing district so the pay is higher. She's paid over 12 months, I believe. I also believe they're given the option for 10 or 12
I did the math and figured out that if she worked (and was paid for) a full year, she would make more money than I do. It was quite a shock to both of us! I told her that I would gladly take a 1/6 pay cut to have summers off and three weeks of vacation at Christmas (plus a week off each at Thanksgiving and Easter). I've never analyzed how the hours come out though...she probably does work more hours per year than I do now that I'm in a 45-ish hours per week job instead of the 60-80 hours I used to work. Not to mention the emotional hardship of working in a low-performing school, where she wants to help the kids so badly but is powerless over their circumstances at home.
{Edited because my grammar was atrocious}
Wow! I want to teach in California if they give three weeks off for Christmas and a week off for Thanksgiving! Like most teachers, I get one week off for Christmas/New Year's and three days off for Thanksgiving.
Thanks for pointing out the emotional hardship of working in a low-performing school. I spent four years teaching impoverished inner city kids and it was pretty horrific. I was assaulted by students regularly and ended up in urgent care twice for injuries. I faced hours of racist and sexual verbal abuse per day from students (and administrators) and had to learn how to control situations where groups of students backed me up against the blackboard and tried to antagonize me into striking them so they could get me fired. Administrators did not punish students, because they were worried about bad press and (especially) loss of funding for suspending students. I also had to attend far too many funerals for students who were killed in gang violence. In the end, I left for another district, because it just wasn't worth it from a physical, mental, or financial point of view.
Honestly, it makes zero sense to become a schoolteacher. Just get a degree in business instead. Then you get lots of money and you don't even have to be particularly smart.
But if you are smart, you have to put up with an insane amount of stupid people!
My mom teaches elementary school, so she doesn't go through nearly what you do. But she deals with a lot of kids who just aren't being given the tools they need to succeed. She tells me how the boys are out of control because they receive no discipline, and the girls are never allowed to do their homework because they're expected to come home and help their mom cook and clean and babysit younger siblings. Most of the parents don't even speak English, so she can't talk to the parents, even if they would. Nobody comes to back-to-school night or open house. I help her grade papers when she just can't take it anymore - in 5th grade these kids can't even write a proper sentence, let alone a paragraph or a simple 5-paragraph essay. I remember doing 5-page state reports and mission projects complete with a model mission we had to build (a CA thing) in 5th grade. It's just so sad.
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You must live in Beverly Hills or something because I've been teaching for a decade and I make nowhere near that much money from that job (combined with my SO's pay and my side hustles, we make significantly more, of course). I have heard of Baby Boomers in some places who have been teaching for 25 years making that kind of money, but nobody of the current generation will ever be that comfortable.
I don't live in Beverly Hills, but in a suburb of Boston (and not one of the super wealthy ones like Lexington or Newton) and the average teacher salary is 87K. Yeah, my jaw dropped too when I looked it up. Salaries seem to range from 55K up to 90K. MA has really strong teachers unions and very good schools, not just nationwide but worldwide, so I don't begrudge them their pay at all. They are also required to hold masters degrees. Besides, I know they have their work cut out for them teaching my kids. :P
http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/state_report/teachersalaries.aspx (http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/state_report/teachersalaries.aspx)
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MA, CT, NJ, and NY have pretty decent average salaries - over 60k by state.
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MA, CT, NJ, and NY have pretty decent average salaries - over 60k by state.
I live in NJ. I live in an inexpensive area, so my property taxes alone are about $8000/year (much better than the really nice areas that can cost up to $20,000/year in taxes. I also live in an inexpensive house, so I was able to buy it for less than $400,000 which just blew my friends' minds. The cost of living is really high in NJ, so if you have lots of years of experience and make over $60k, it doesn't really go that far. On the plus side, when it is time to retire and I sell my house, I will have tons of money for a retirement in one of those cheap Southern states with bad schools.
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You must live in Beverly Hills or something because I've been teaching for a decade and I make nowhere near that much money from that job (combined with my SO's pay and my side hustles, we make significantly more, of course). I have heard of Baby Boomers in some places who have been teaching for 25 years making that kind of money, but nobody of the current generation will ever be that comfortable.
I don't live in Beverly Hills, but in a suburb of Boston (and not one of the super wealthy ones like Lexington or Newton) and the average teacher salary is 87K. Yeah, my jaw dropped too when I looked it up. Salaries seem to range from 55K up to 90K. MA has really strong teachers unions and very good schools, not just nationwide but worldwide, so I don't begrudge them their pay at all. They are also required to hold masters degrees. Besides, I know they have their work cut out for them teaching my kids. :P
http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/state_report/teachersalaries.aspx (http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/state_report/teachersalaries.aspx)
I think your right; good teachers get paid a pretty average salary compared to the national range, minus the large amount of schooling required of course.
In May 2012, the median annual wage for kindergarten teachers was $50,120. The median annual wage for elementary school teachers was $53,400 in May 2012. bls.gov (http://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/kindergarten-and-elementary-school-teachers.htm)
The BLS reports the median annual salary for high school teachers was $55,050 in 2012. bls.gov (http://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/high-school-teachers.htm)
For my anecdotal evidence; my sister-in-law is a teacher and she falls into the range above.
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my cousin is a teacher in Ontario, Canada and makes 90k. Is that normal there?
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That $77k average mentioned above is higher than the maximum pay here for a teacher with a PhD and 25 years of experience.
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That $77k average mentioned above is higher than the maximum pay here for a teacher with a PhD and 25 years of experience.
Yeah, a lot of people live in fantasyland when it comes to assessing teacher pay. Honestly, if anyone out there is choosing a career, choose something other than teaching. I would suggest choosing either business or computer programming, because you will make much more money with much less work and stress than teaching. Leave teaching to the Teach For America volunteers that Walmart and Bill Gates are bankrolling.
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That $77k average mentioned above is higher than the maximum pay here for a teacher with a PhD and 25 years of experience.
It's even worse, that $77,000 was in Canadian dollars (I assume) since that poster is from B.C. That translates to $82,000 U.S. Yet another reason to move to Canada (not.)
Too bad because I would love B.C. Pretty weather, lovely place to grow lilies.
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My mom teaches elementary school, so she doesn't go through nearly what you do. But she deals with a lot of kids who just aren't being given the tools they need to succeed. She tells me how the boys are out of control because they receive no discipline, and the girls are never allowed to do their homework because they're expected to come home and help their mom cook and clean and babysit younger siblings. Most of the parents don't even speak English, so she can't talk to the parents, even if they would. Nobody comes to back-to-school night or open house. I help her grade papers when she just can't take it anymore - in 5th grade these kids can't even write a proper sentence, let alone a paragraph or a simple 5-paragraph essay. I remember doing 5-page state reports and mission projects complete with a model mission we had to build (a CA thing) in 5th grade. It's just so sad.
Perfect example of how throwing money at the problem will not help.
My urban city school district throw more money at each pupil than in the entire state and has the lowest test scores and gradation rates. Money, it's not about that. How's about values? Does anyone actually value education any more?
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My mom teaches elementary school, so she doesn't go through nearly what you do. But she deals with a lot of kids who just aren't being given the tools they need to succeed. She tells me how the boys are out of control because they receive no discipline, and the girls are never allowed to do their homework because they're expected to come home and help their mom cook and clean and babysit younger siblings. Most of the parents don't even speak English, so she can't talk to the parents, even if they would. Nobody comes to back-to-school night or open house. I help her grade papers when she just can't take it anymore - in 5th grade these kids can't even write a proper sentence, let alone a paragraph or a simple 5-paragraph essay. I remember doing 5-page state reports and mission projects complete with a model mission we had to build (a CA thing) in 5th grade. It's just so sad.
Perfect example of how throwing money at the problem will not help.
My urban city school district throw more money at each pupil than in the entire state and has the lowest test scores and gradation rates. Money, it's not about that. How's about values? Does anyone actually value education any more?
Here in NJ, we "throw" lots of money at student achievement, which is why we have been in the Top 3 for education in the entire USA for a long time. We had the highest rate of male African American graduates in the country. Unfortunately, the people of NJ saw fit to elect Chris Christie as our governor and he immediately slashed the education budget by $1 billion, so now the quality of education we offer is beginning to decline. Since it would be much more expensive to fund jobs programs and parenting classes to improve the society of our inner cities, "throwing money at the problem" of education is pretty much the only thing that can be done. But a lot of people like to look down on poor minorities and "white trash", so they like to use lies, damned lies, and statistics to justify cutting off much needed programs like education.
Nobody in the USA values education. Nobody. There is a lot of talk, but that's all it is. Talk.
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That $77k average mentioned above is higher than the maximum pay here for a teacher with a PhD and 25 years of experience.
It's even worse, that $77,000 was in Canadian dollars (I assume) since that poster is from B.C. That translates to $82,000 U.S. Yet another reason to move to Canada (not.)
Too bad because I would love B.C. Pretty weather, lovely place to grow lilies.
Exchange rate is the other way around,so actually US$72k .
Re: Request system, not seniority, I stand corrected,
The following is a stretch for being on topic, but I was interested in learning more about how teacher salaries work here...
it is actually worse..seniority is not the driver, lots of connections are. I have never seen a bad young teacher, the practicum seems to do a good job with their training under top teachers.... He is an extract from Vancouver Sun, may 13, 2013...:
The practise is called Preferential Callout (or The Request System), where teachers can hire their friends and relatives by requesting them to cover their classes when they book time off work. In my local it trumps everything – even qualification – and is the most widely practised use of employing teachers-on-call (TOCs) in the province (“TTOC Callout Systems”).
This letter is a heartfelt plea to the ministry to end this call-to-work practise that fuels the B.C. education system with nepotism and cronyism as a foundation for hiring into the profession.
From the TOC perspective, the game is to get as many teacher friends as you can to ‘request’ you so you are sure to work four days in a row in any four assignments (cf. the Ready Award, 2006). Once you hit Day 4, two big changes occur: you get paid on scale (at your experience & education level, sometimes double) retroactive to Day 1 and for all subsequent days, and you get to collect seniority for all of those days. (If you don’t hit the magical Day 4 — you get only the basic daily TOC pay and earn zero seniority. This, of course, is comparable to getting a Go Directly to Jail card! You have to start all over again.) For teachers near or at the maximum pay scale (for example, retired TOCs who may have had a career teaching), there is an extremely lucrative incentive to win a large ‘Friends’ list: you collect the Chance card, Advance to Go and Collect an extra $200.00! (In fact, this amount is not an exaggeration: compare the basic TOC pay of $213.90/day to scale pay near or at the max salary schedule and it’s around $400.)
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Exchange rate is the other way around,so actually US$72k .[/quote]
oh you are right, sorry! well then, not so bad.
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I've been getting flamed online lately for calling out the teachers in BC who are striking right now and making all sorts of ridiculous claims. Teachers here in Vancouver start at about $39,000 at the very lowest (zero experience, minimal education, etc) and max out at about $70K, plus a gold-plated pension plan and incredibly generous benefits, vacation time, and sick time. Obviously they complain more than anyone about "Oh, Vancouver's expensive! We can't get by on that!".
The teacher's union ran out of strike pay after a few days since they've been going on strike a ridiculous amount over the last few years. After about two or three days of no pay, word got out that there was a special teacher's food bank opening so they don't starve. After just a handful of days without pay, number of them apparently don't have any food left in the house! Here's an article about it: http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/06/18/bc-teachers-strike-2014_n_5508619.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/06/18/bc-teachers-strike-2014_n_5508619.html)
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I've been getting flamed online lately for calling out the teachers in BC who are striking right now and making all sorts of ridiculous claims. Teachers here in Vancouver start at about $39,000 at the very lowest (zero experience, minimal education, etc) and max out at about $70K, plus a gold-plated pension plan and incredibly generous benefits, vacation time, and sick time. Obviously they complain more than anyone about "Oh, Vancouver's expensive! We can't get by on that!".
The teacher's union ran out of strike pay after a few days since they've been going on strike a ridiculous amount over the last few years. After about two or three days of no pay, word got out that there was a special teacher's food bank opening so they don't starve. After just a handful of days without pay, number of them apparently don't have any food left in the house! Here's an article about it: http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/06/18/bc-teachers-strike-2014_n_5508619.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/06/18/bc-teachers-strike-2014_n_5508619.html)
FYI_ I don't think many are hired at zero, if I recall the zero level is for a three year teaching diploma.. I think they get some points for work experience.. Bc avg is high because so many are over 10 yrs w.ith grad degree.
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I've been getting flamed online lately for calling out the teachers in BC who are striking right now and making all sorts of ridiculous claims. Teachers here in Vancouver start at about $39,000 at the very lowest (zero experience, minimal education, etc) and max out at about $70K, plus a gold-plated pension plan and incredibly generous benefits, vacation time, and sick time. Obviously they complain more than anyone about "Oh, Vancouver's expensive! We can't get by on that!".
The teacher's union ran out of strike pay after a few days since they've been going on strike a ridiculous amount over the last few years. After about two or three days of no pay, word got out that there was a special teacher's food bank opening so they don't starve. After just a handful of days without pay, number of them apparently don't have any food left in the house! Here's an article about it: http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/06/18/bc-teachers-strike-2014_n_5508619.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/06/18/bc-teachers-strike-2014_n_5508619.html)
FYI_ I don't think many are hired at zero, if I recall the zero level is for a three year teaching diploma.. I think they get some points for work experience.. Bc avg is high because so many are over 10 yrs w.ith grad degree.
Yeah, there probably are actually zero in the lowest pay grades just because the southern parts of BC are such desirable places to live and work that the teacher supply and demand are seriously out of whack. You'd be hard-pressed to get any sort of a teaching job other than on a northern Indian reserve without some serious credentials and experience, and given declining enrollment, it's not going to get any better.
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Honestly, it makes zero sense to become a schoolteacher. Just get a degree in business instead. Then you get lots of money and you don't even have to be particularly smart.
I know that my state's educational system is in much more trouble than the rest of the country's, but I think you're right. Only teachers at the top-top-top of the salary scale break the 50K mark, and our salaries have been frozen for six years -- while our insurance and other benefit costs have increased; thus, we are bringing home fewer dollars than we did in the past. This has affected morale.
When I started teaching, it was still a pretty good deal: The salary was fair, the benefits were good, and -- if you stayed -- the pension was worthwhile. Today the work load has increased exponentially, and our legislature is actively trying to destroy the public education system in our state. They want to see it replaced with charter schools and online classes, which are cheaper for the taxpayer. Or, I could say, they're cheaper for the taxpayer today, but they'll cost more down the line when many of our kids have slipped through the cracks and are not prepared for the work world.
Thing is, if you're a teacher, you're a teacher. It's one of those jobs that's more of a calling than a decision. I knew I was a teacher, but I went into another field . . . for a while. Then I came back to what I was meant to do. I don't think I fully grasped this until I realized that my oldest child was a nurse -- she just was one from the start. Teachers, nurses, and preachers -- we just are what we are.
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Has anyone else noticed that jobs described as "a calling" are jobs that no one would do at that pay rate, in those conditions, if it was just presented as a normal job?
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I can see a Summer loan a being a somewhat reasonable money management policy. You take out the loan and pay it off. It has a 0 balance by the time the next Summer roles around. I see how it makes sense to some people.
It makes more sense to take that loan payment and instead save that $ each month for your Summer expenses. But once you're already in the cycle, and now you're faced with a loan payment AND trying to save an equal amount for next Summer, I can see how that would be difficult.
Well... I can see how it would be difficult without the power of Mustachianism.
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my cousin is a teacher in Ontario, Canada and makes 90k. Is that normal there?
A teacher in Ontario who has 11 years and is top of the grid (a few specialist qualifications gets you there-equal to maybe 1.5 years of uni) will make 95k-ish. In Alberta it is around 100k.
This will change in the fall-it will be 16 years and there will be no pay raise for many years to come. Of course that means a likely teacher strike (with the accompanying stories of husband/wife teacher duo's who make near 200k between them suddenly struggling after a week or two of a strike).
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Has anyone else noticed that jobs described as "a calling" are jobs that no one would do at that pay rate, in those conditions, if it was just presented as a normal job?
Yup. I was "called" to be a teacher, but then my salary and benefits got seriously slashed and they quadrupled my workload. Then, they changed how I am evaluated by basing it on how students do on standardized tests, which is kind of like evaluating a dentist based on how many cavities their patients get. Nobody even understands anymore that some kids are just slow. It is ridiculous. All the teachers who could retire early have done so and many of the remaining teachers have either switched to another line-of-work or they are actively looking for another one. It's really sad and the kids are suffering because of all this "reform". But if I complain about any of this, I am told that I am selfish and I don't care about children. There is no way to win.
By the way, if what the Canadians on this thread are telling me about teaching in Canada is true, that is absolutely amazing. From this and other things I have read about life in Canada, you guys really have it good. Universal healthcare, national pensions, fantastic social safety net, college education without massive student loans, WOW. Life in Canada sounds really easy compared to life in the USA.
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my cousin is a teacher in Ontario, Canada and makes 90k. Is that normal there?
Yep, my brother and his wife are both teachers
in Ontario (not big city), 10 yrs experience, one high
school, one elementary, and they each make $90k.
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You must live in Beverly Hills or something because I've been teaching for a decade and I make nowhere near that much money from that job (combined with my SO's pay and my side hustles, we make significantly more, of course). I have heard of Baby Boomers in some places who have been teaching for 25 years making that kind of money, but nobody of the current generation will ever be that comfortable.
I don't live in Beverly Hills, but in a suburb of Boston (and not one of the super wealthy ones like Lexington or Newton) and the average teacher salary is 87K. Yeah, my jaw dropped too when I looked it up. Salaries seem to range from 55K up to 90K. MA has really strong teachers unions and very good schools, not just nationwide but worldwide, so I don't begrudge them their pay at all. They are also required to hold masters degrees. Besides, I know they have their work cut out for them teaching my kids. :P
http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/state_report/teachersalaries.aspx (http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/state_report/teachersalaries.aspx)
I think your right; good teachers get paid a pretty average salary compared to the national range, minus the large amount of schooling required of course.
In May 2012, the median annual wage for kindergarten teachers was $50,120. The median annual wage for elementary school teachers was $53,400 in May 2012. bls.gov (http://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/kindergarten-and-elementary-school-teachers.htm)
The BLS reports the median annual salary for high school teachers was $55,050 in 2012. bls.gov (http://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/high-school-teachers.htm)
For my anecdotal evidence; my sister-in-law is a teacher and she falls into the range above.
Note that the Boston teacher salary info shared is not median, though; it's made up of means, which are more subject to outliers. Still impressive, but just keep in mind that a few PhD's who have been around for 25+ years could feasibly skew that number upwards. And I wouldn't compare the BLS data to the Boston data, just because one is median and one is mean.
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I am a teacher for a large urban school district in southern CA, and I make $72K. I have 15 years of experience, but no MA because the bonus for a Master's is only about $1500 a year. Wasn't worth it to me.
We've been getting 12 paychecks for a few years now, but when I first started, we only got 10. It was downright bizarre to me that even the district HR person who explained this to me also matter-of-factly mentioned those personal loans, like it was just what everyone did, no big deal. I went right home and figured out how much to set aside every month to be fine during the summer, but it was weird to me how many people didn't bother doing that or couldn't. Even stranger is why, now that we all get 12 paychecks, the local teachers' credit union *still* advertises in our union paper for those loans. They take out full-color full-page ads, so it must be worth it to them in terms of teachers responding to those ads. All I can think then is, "Wait, you're getting paid every single month, and you STILL need a summer loan?!?!" They must be having some kick-ass summers!
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I'd never heard of the summer loan thing; public schools here pay over 12 months. I will say it's a good thing those personal loans aren't advertised, though, or half my colleagues at the college would be getting them -- the university system pays ten-month employees for the 10 months they work, sensibly enough.
Oh, and for new teachers to a K12 system, they want to split a year's pay into 13 months because otherwise new teachers would work for a month and a half before seeing a check. It's a real pain talking them out of that, even just transferring from another state system...
You'd think low pay would mean people would figure out how to live on low pay, but no.
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I audit schools. Less than half of my clients offer "summer pay" for teachers. When teachers complain, the administration explains that the only difference between the school offering summer pay and the teacher doing the summer pay themselves is the interest.
If the school offers summer pay:
They literally take 10% of each paycheck and deposit it in another bank account. It sits and collects interest. When summer rolls around, more often than not, the school keeps the interest and just hands the teacher their money.
The school encourages the teachers to save the 10% on their own so they get the interest.
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I think a common problem for people with income that changes over the course of the year is knowing how much they actually need. Very few people can keep mental books (though almost everyone I know thinks that they are the exception). The trick for inconsistent income is knowing your normal spend rate. The best thing for that is keeping a budget/spend analysis/cash flow document and you really don't reap the full benefits of your documentation until you've spent a year recording. Less than a third of people keep a budget, which is probably why a summer loan is important for them as a method of cash flow smoothing.
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You must live in Beverly Hills or something because I've been teaching for a decade and I make nowhere near that much money from that job (combined with my SO's pay and my side hustles, we make significantly more, of course). I have heard of Baby Boomers in some places who have been teaching for 25 years making that kind of money, but nobody of the current generation will ever be that comfortable.
I don't live in Beverly Hills, but in a suburb of Boston (and not one of the super wealthy ones like Lexington or Newton) and the average teacher salary is 87K. Yeah, my jaw dropped too when I looked it up. Salaries seem to range from 55K up to 90K. MA has really strong teachers unions and very good schools, not just nationwide but worldwide, so I don't begrudge them their pay at all. They are also required to hold masters degrees. Besides, I know they have their work cut out for them teaching my kids. :P
http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/state_report/teachersalaries.aspx (http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/state_report/teachersalaries.aspx)
I think your right; good teachers get paid a pretty average salary compared to the national range, minus the large amount of schooling required of course.
In May 2012, the median annual wage for kindergarten teachers was $50,120. The median annual wage for elementary school teachers was $53,400 in May 2012. bls.gov (http://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/kindergarten-and-elementary-school-teachers.htm)
The BLS reports the median annual salary for high school teachers was $55,050 in 2012. bls.gov (http://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/high-school-teachers.htm)
For my anecdotal evidence; my sister-in-law is a teacher and she falls into the range above.
Average teacher pay in the USA is now up near $58,000 per year (though it varies widely by locality).
Not "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous" money, but a HELL of a lot more than most people make.
On their first day of work, I suspect the teacher's union implants a chip in their brain that recite the "teachers are underpaid!" mantra at least once a day.
Someday, I hope I meet someone who says, "I'm a teacher. I get paid a pretty damned good salary, far more than most workers. I also get a ton of time off. I really don't have much to complain about."
That kind of honesty would be refreshing.
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a HELL of a lot more than most people make.
. . .
far more than most workers.
What does that have to do with anything? You some kind of socialist?
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+1 for all that MoneyCat says. Over and over again - what MoneyCat says. If you think we are overpaid and under worked come do our job. Follow me around for a day. Come to professional development meetings. Watch our morale tank as students run the school and parents make demands. And kids out there - find something else to do. Anything else. At least you can go to the bathroom when you need to in some other field.
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You must live in Beverly Hills or something because I've been teaching for a decade and I make nowhere near that much money from that job (combined with my SO's pay and my side hustles, we make significantly more, of course). I have heard of Baby Boomers in some places who have been teaching for 25 years making that kind of money, but nobody of the current generation will ever be that comfortable.
I don't live in Beverly Hills, but in a suburb of Boston (and not one of the super wealthy ones like Lexington or Newton) and the average teacher salary is 87K. Yeah, my jaw dropped too when I looked it up. Salaries seem to range from 55K up to 90K. MA has really strong teachers unions and very good schools, not just nationwide but worldwide, so I don't begrudge them their pay at all. They are also required to hold masters degrees. Besides, I know they have their work cut out for them teaching my kids. :P
http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/state_report/teachersalaries.aspx (http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/state_report/teachersalaries.aspx)
I think your right; good teachers get paid a pretty average salary compared to the national range, minus the large amount of schooling required of course.
In May 2012, the median annual wage for kindergarten teachers was $50,120. The median annual wage for elementary school teachers was $53,400 in May 2012. bls.gov (http://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/kindergarten-and-elementary-school-teachers.htm)
The BLS reports the median annual salary for high school teachers was $55,050 in 2012. bls.gov (http://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/high-school-teachers.htm)
For my anecdotal evidence; my sister-in-law is a teacher and she falls into the range above.
Average teacher pay in the USA is now up near $58,000 per year (though it varies widely by locality).
Not "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous" money, but a HELL of a lot more than most people make.
On their first day of work, I suspect the teacher's union implants a chip in their brain that recite the "teachers are underpaid!" mantra at least once a day.
Someday, I hope I meet someone who says, "I'm a teacher. I get paid a pretty damned good salary, far more than most workers. I also get a ton of time off. I really don't have much to complain about."
That kind of honesty would be refreshing.
Find me another profession where if you have a Master's Degree, you earn $50,000 after ten years of service. Go ahead, Mr. Smartypants. And then try to live on that $50,000 in New York City or San Francisco. Then tell me again how teachers are so overpaid. Sometimes I want to walk into an engineer's or doctor's office and just start screaming at them about how they are overpaid losers and how they should all be fired just so I can show them how it feels to be a teacher every single day.
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I think for all those paycheck-to paycheck teachers it would be a nice lesson (oh... no pun intended lol) to try the plus one method.
Every month (or 2 weeks it is for you), you have the target to survive one day longer on your pay.
So month 1 you try 31 days instead of 30 (for easiness month =30d). second month you go 32 day, third month 33 days... until you reach your goal of saved days. After a year, your paycheck already lasts you 42 days = nearly 30% savings rate! And you are already living only on the october money at christmas ;)
With this you can gradually get used to this and have time to find ways to slash your expenses. And even if you dont reach your goal, you have more money.
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My district gives us no choice but to pay us over 12 months. Before I started, the choice was given between 10 or 12 months, but it changed. I can only imagine it's to save many of us from ourselves. I can think of at least a few work buddies who would be in the poorhouse if they actually had to budget for two months of no pay, some of whom are math teachers.
On a related note, our pension recently underwent some changes that now require 35 years AND age 60 to get the full pension. Many were complaining that it would require them to teach 36 or 37 years in order to get to the age requirement. I suggested that they take a two year sabbatical, as allowed by my district, and then come back and finish, thus giving them the minimum 35 years when they reach 60 years old. One of the math teachers gasped and said, "But who could AFFORD to do that. Do you know how much money you'd have to have saved up????" I replied, "Yes, two years of expenses." She said, "No one can do that. You're young, you'll understand down the road." Ahh, the woefully ignorant.
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For some more positive examples, I've been road tripping for the summer and have met several teachers along the way. They seem to be putting their 2 months of furlough to good use by taking a nice long vacation during which they spend their days climbing and their evenings cooking by the campfire.
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Find me another profession where if you have a Master's Degree, you earn $50,000 after ten years of service. Go ahead, Mr. Smartypants. And then try to live on that $50,000 in New York City or San Francisco. Then tell me again how teachers are so overpaid. Sometimes I want to walk into an engineer's or doctor's office and just start screaming at them about how they are overpaid losers and how they should all be fired just so I can show them how it feels to be a teacher every single day.
In New York a teacher with a masters and 10 years of experience would make a LOT more than that - they start at $45K for no experience, minimal education, and go up to just over 100K. http://schools.nyc.gov/TeachNYC/salary/default.htm (http://schools.nyc.gov/TeachNYC/salary/default.htm)
San Fran starts at about $45 and goes up to over $82K. http://www.sfusd.edu/en/assets/sfusd-staff/contract%20and%20salary%20schedules/Teachers%202012-2014%20salary%20schedule.pdf
(http://www.sfusd.edu/en/assets/sfusd-staff/contract%20and%20salary%20schedules/Teachers%202012-2014%20salary%20schedule.pdf)
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Has anyone else noticed that jobs described as "a calling" are jobs that no one would do at that pay rate, in those conditions, if it was just presented as a normal job?
Perhaps it doesn't make sense to people who aren't in these jobs, but I know that I was always a teacher. Before I started school, I was fascinated by the concept of the classroom. One of my favorite games in elementary school was "playing school". It never occurred to me that NONE of my siblings or cousins ever initiated this game -- it was always me. I remember making worksheets for my siblings. I remember one summer my aunt was in a serious car wreck and my cousins came to live with us for a while -- I divided the family's closets into "cubbies". I've been told time and time again that I have a "teacher voice"; that is, I give clear, concise instructions and (when it suits me) I project more loudly than you'd expect for my size. My daughter was the same way about nursing; from the time she was a toddler, she was already giving her dolls shots and operations. No one told us that these were "callings" or that we should be these things. It was in us from the start; it's part of our personalities.
Perhaps that is one reason we stay, even at these pay rates. It's just what we are. My "runner-up job" was librarian, which shares many traits with teaching.
For the record, I used to feel that my salary was fair (because we do have significant perks in terms of work schedule, and that's worth something) and that I was in a partnership with the state to provide a good classroom experience for my students. I used to feel that I was valued as an employee. Things have gone downhill significantly in the last years in my state, and those things are no longer true.
Find me another profession where if you have a Master's Degree, you earn $50,000 after ten years of service.
I just checked the salary scale in my state. A teacher with only a Bachelor's degree will NEVER reach 50K. A teacher with a Masters AND National Board Certification will top 50K in his or her 20th year.
Average teacher pay in the USA is now up near $58,000 per year (though it varies widely by locality).
Not "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous" money, but a HELL of a lot more than most people make.
On their first day of work, I suspect the teacher's union implants a chip in their brain that recite the "teachers are underpaid!" mantra at least once a day.
Someday, I hope I meet someone who says, "I'm a teacher. I get paid a pretty damned good salary, far more than most workers. I also get a ton of time off. I really don't have much to complain about."
That kind of honesty would be refreshing.
Thing about averages is, they're not a real picture of anyone's actual salary. That's like taking a sampling of all writers and saying, "JK Rowling makes a billion a year, Diana Gabaldon and Steven King each make a million a year, and a buttload of aspiring writers make nothing . . . so the average writer is earning about 100,000K." It's not representative of anyone's real salary.
No, unions aren't responsible for putting this idea into people's heads. Teacher unions have a stranglehold on a small portion of the country, but the vast majority of teachers aren't union members -- in fact, teacher unions are illegal in my state. The fact is that teacher salaries are near the bottom of the scale for college-educated professionals and always have been.
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Average teacher pay in the USA is now up near $58,000 per year (though it varies widely by locality).
Not "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous" money, but a HELL of a lot more than most people make.
On their first day of work, I suspect the teacher's union implants a chip in their brain that recite the "teachers are underpaid!" mantra at least once a day.
Someday, I hope I meet someone who says, "I'm a teacher. I get paid a pretty damned good salary, far more than most workers. I also get a ton of time off. I really don't have much to complain about."
That kind of honesty would be refreshing.
And the median pay (usually about 1/3 less than mean (http://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/central.html)) of all people with a bachelor's degree or more is $61,700:
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/wkyeng.t05.htm
For their education, there's no arguing that teachers are dramatically underpaid.
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Find me another profession where if you have a Master's Degree, you earn $50,000 after ten years of service. Go ahead, Mr. Smartypants. And then try to live on that $50,000 in New York City or San Francisco. Then tell me again how teachers are so overpaid. Sometimes I want to walk into an engineer's or doctor's office and just start screaming at them about how they are overpaid losers and how they should all be fired just so I can show them how it feels to be a teacher every single day.
In New York a teacher with a masters and 10 years of experience would make a LOT more than that - they start at $45K for no experience, minimal education, and go up to just over 100K. http://schools.nyc.gov/TeachNYC/salary/default.htm (http://schools.nyc.gov/TeachNYC/salary/default.htm)
San Fran starts at about $45 and goes up to over $82K. http://www.sfusd.edu/en/assets/sfusd-staff/contract%20and%20salary%20schedules/Teachers%202012-2014%20salary%20schedule.pdf
(http://www.sfusd.edu/en/assets/sfusd-staff/contract%20and%20salary%20schedules/Teachers%202012-2014%20salary%20schedule.pdf)
That must be nice. Here in North Carolina you can have your master's degree AND 10 years experience and still not crack 40k. See pages 2 and 3 of the link below for the complete salary schedule.
http://www.ncpublicschools.org/docs/fbs/finance/salary/schedules/2013-14schedules.pdf
On the bright side, if I can stick it out for 35 (!) years I'll make 57k (luckily I won't have to do that since I'm somewhat Mustachian). Oh wait, that assumes the legislature actually honors the experience pay increase ladder, which they haven't for the last 6 years...despite it supposedly being a part of the contract we signed.
Maybe there is something to be said for unionization after all? (I can't believe I just said that) NC is a right to work state unlike the states listed above.
BTW can we all agree salary averages are relatively useless? I always think of the story of Michael Jordan being a geology major and skewing the average salary of geology majors (not that you can't make a good living a geology major!).
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That must be nice. Here in North Carolina you can have your master's degree AND 10 years experience and still not crack 40k. See pages 2 and 3 of the link below for the complete salary schedule.
http://www.ncpublicschools.org/docs/fbs/finance/salary/schedules/2013-14schedules.pdf
On the bright side, if I can stick it out for 35 (!) years I'll make 57k (luckily I won't have to do that since I'm somewhat Mustachian). Oh wait, that assumes the legislature actually honors the experience pay increase ladder, which they haven't for the last 6 years...despite it supposedly being a part of the contract we signed.
Maybe there is something to be said for unionization after all? (I can't believe I just said that) NC is a right to work state unlike the states listed above.
BTW can we all agree salary averages are relatively useless? I always think of the story of Michael Jordan being a geology major and skewing the average salary of geology majors (not that you can't make a good living a geology major!).
I am sorry to hear that you are a teacher in North Carolina. When I was fresh out of college, I went to an Education Job Fair at my school. There were representatives there from public schools throughout Ohio, mostly within 100 miles or so. And.... there were two schools there from North Carolina. When you have to recruit teachers from three states away, you know there's something wrong.
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BTW can we all agree salary averages are relatively useless? I always think of the story of Michael Jordan being a geology major and skewing the average salary of geology majors (not that you can't make a good living a geology major!).
You'll never be able to convince people who just instinctively hate teachers. They all remember "Mean Mrs. Crabtree" in 5th grade and decide to take their revenge on teachers now that they are adults. Well, they got us. We can't really do anything about them destroying our lives by cutting our pay and benefits, so the only solution is to go Mustachian and look for more selfish employment.
I hope everyone enjoys the current and future generations of children who are completely incapable of critical reasoning. But don't worry. As long as their jobs involve filling in Scantron sheets or parroting back memorized facts, they will be just fine.
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BTW can we all agree salary averages are relatively useless? I always think of the story of Michael Jordan being a geology major and skewing the average salary of geology majors (not that you can't make a good living a geology major!).
Interesting, I didn't know that he was a geologist!
My husband is a teacher. He has 6+ years of university, and is at year 2 on the salary grid. If he were actually working more than temp gigs right now, he would be making $68,372. They haven't had a contract since August 2012 here though, so it's starting to get contentious with the division. We are in Canada. I'm a geologist, and I grossed somewhere between 2 and 2.5 times that last year (still haven't met with the accountant yet, year end was June)
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+1 for all that MoneyCat says. Over and over again - what MoneyCat says. If you think we are overpaid and under worked come do our job. Follow me around for a day. Come to professional development meetings. Watch our morale tank as students run the school and parents make demands. And kids out there - find something else to do. Anything else. At least you can go to the bathroom when you need to in some other field.
i think most here agree with you, but we also know that there is a lot of crap in many many workplaces. Think about it, most here are planning to FIRE. There must be a reason why if we are not all teachers.... could it be that teachers do not have an extra crappy job, just different type of problems?
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Some of you seem to be operating under the Labor = Price assumption; that the Labor being the time, effort and expenses of advanced degrees should reflect in the Price, or salary, but economists haven't believed this since the late 1700s. Since then it has been shown that Price only equals what people are willing to pay for a given service, or product, regardless of what went into producing it.
Please Read: Basic Economics: A Common Sense Guide to the Economy (http://www.amazon.com/Basic-Economics-Common-Sense-Economy/dp/0465022529/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1406567465&sr=1-1&keywords=basic+economics)
Your selling yourselves at a loss.
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Has anyone else noticed that jobs described as "a calling" are jobs that no one would do at that pay rate, in those conditions, if it was just presented as a normal job?
Except for being a fireman. In some big cities 100k is quite attainable with a great benefits package. Then you have guys that do it for free all over the country. Go figure
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Has anyone else noticed that jobs described as "a calling" are jobs that no one would do at that pay rate, in those conditions, if it was just presented as a normal job?
Except for being a fireman. In some big cities 100k is quite attainable with a great benefits package. Then you have guys that do it for free all over the country. Go figure
I don't know the salary distribution of Firefighters myself but if what you say is true; doesn't it make sense that the owners of multimillion dollar skyscrapers all tightly packed together (and the community that works in them) would value (price) firefighters more than a rural community with a few $100 thousand dollar buildings together?
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Average teacher pay in the USA is now up near $58,000 per year (though it varies widely by locality).
Not "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous" money, but a HELL of a lot more than most people make.
On their first day of work, I suspect the teacher's union implants a chip in their brain that recite the "teachers are underpaid!" mantra at least once a day.
Someday, I hope I meet someone who says, "I'm a teacher. I get paid a pretty damned good salary, far more than most workers. I also get a ton of time off. I really don't have much to complain about."
That kind of honesty would be refreshing.
And the median pay (usually about 1/3 less than mean (http://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/central.html)) of all people with a bachelor's degree or more is $61,700:
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/wkyeng.t05.htm
For their education, there's no arguing that teachers are dramatically underpaid.
Dramatically underpaid?
They make about $58,000. The average person with similar education level makes about $61k. That means teachers make slightly below average for their level of education.
They also work far less hours than most people with similar educations. The get long summers off (which gives them plenty of opportunity to make up that $3k difference by working a summer job). They get every holiday in the world, and then some (spring break, long Christmas break, etc).
On a per hour basis, they are probably paid significantly above average.
But anyway you look at it, they are hardly "dramatically underpaid."
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Average teacher pay in the USA is now up near $58,000 per year (though it varies widely by locality).
Not "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous" money, but a HELL of a lot more than most people make.
On their first day of work, I suspect the teacher's union implants a chip in their brain that recite the "teachers are underpaid!" mantra at least once a day.
Someday, I hope I meet someone who says, "I'm a teacher. I get paid a pretty damned good salary, far more than most workers. I also get a ton of time off. I really don't have much to complain about."
That kind of honesty would be refreshing.
And the median pay (usually about 1/3 less than mean (http://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/central.html)) of all people with a bachelor's degree or more is $61,700:
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/wkyeng.t05.htm
For their education, there's no arguing that teachers are dramatically underpaid.
Dramatically underpaid?
They make about $58,000. The average person with similar education level makes about $61k. That means teachers make slightly below average for their level of education.
They also work far less hours than most people with similar educations. The get long summers off (which gives them plenty of opportunity to make up that $3k difference by working a summer job). They get every holiday in the world, and then some (spring break, long Christmas break, etc).
On a per hour basis, they are probably paid significantly above average.
But anyway you look at it, they are hardly "dramatically underpaid."
You're comparing a median to a mean. Can you find me a median teacher salary? I suggested a rough conversion based on all people pay Social Security taxes, which would mean the median teacher salary is about $39k, compared to the median of people with bachelor's degrees of $61,700.
And most teachers have a master's degree or higher, for which the median salary is $71,600.
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Find me another profession where if you have a Master's Degree, you earn $50,000 after ten years of service. Go ahead, Mr. Smartypants. And then try to live on that $50,000 in New York City or San Francisco. Then tell me again how teachers are so overpaid. Sometimes I want to walk into an engineer's or doctor's office and just start screaming at them about how they are overpaid losers and how they should all be fired just so I can show them how it feels to be a teacher every single day.
In New York a teacher with a masters and 10 years of experience would make a LOT more than that - they start at $45K for no experience, minimal education, and go up to just over 100K. http://schools.nyc.gov/TeachNYC/salary/default.htm (http://schools.nyc.gov/TeachNYC/salary/default.htm)
San Fran starts at about $45 and goes up to over $82K. http://www.sfusd.edu/en/assets/sfusd-staff/contract%20and%20salary%20schedules/Teachers%202012-2014%20salary%20schedule.pdf
(http://www.sfusd.edu/en/assets/sfusd-staff/contract%20and%20salary%20schedules/Teachers%202012-2014%20salary%20schedule.pdf)
That must be nice. Here in North Carolina you can have your master's degree AND 10 years experience and still not crack 40k. See pages 2 and 3 of the link below for the complete salary schedule.
http://www.ncpublicschools.org/docs/fbs/finance/salary/schedules/2013-14schedules.pdf
On the bright side, if I can stick it out for 35 (!) years I'll make 57k (luckily I won't have to do that since I'm somewhat Mustachian). Oh wait, that assumes the legislature actually honors the experience pay increase ladder, which they haven't for the last 6 years...despite it supposedly being a part of the contract we signed.
Maybe there is something to be said for unionization after all? (I can't believe I just said that) NC is a right to work state unlike the states listed above.
BTW can we all agree salary averages are relatively useless? I always think of the story of Michael Jordan being a geology major and skewing the average salary of geology majors (not that you can't make a good living a geology major!).
I was shocked to read that Michael Jordan has a degree in Geology (a science).
I was also a bit skeptical.
So I looked it up.
He doesn't have a BS degree in Geology (a science) , he has a BA degree in "cultural geography" (not a science).
Well, technically, he does have a BS degree, but it's not a Baccalaureate of Science, it's the bovine scatology kind of BS degree.
His diploma was up for sale early this year.
http://voices.suntimes.com/sports/michael-jordans-college-diploma-up-for-auction/
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Average teacher pay in the USA is now up near $58,000 per year (though it varies widely by locality).
Not "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous" money, but a HELL of a lot more than most people make.
On their first day of work, I suspect the teacher's union implants a chip in their brain that recite the "teachers are underpaid!" mantra at least once a day.
Someday, I hope I meet someone who says, "I'm a teacher. I get paid a pretty damned good salary, far more than most workers. I also get a ton of time off. I really don't have much to complain about."
That kind of honesty would be refreshing.
And the median pay (usually about 1/3 less than mean (http://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/central.html)) of all people with a bachelor's degree or more is $61,700:
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/wkyeng.t05.htm
For their education, there's no arguing that teachers are dramatically underpaid.
Dramatically underpaid?
They make about $58,000. The average person with similar education level makes about $61k. That means teachers make slightly below average for their level of education.
They also work far less hours than most people with similar educations. The get long summers off (which gives them plenty of opportunity to make up that $3k difference by working a summer job). They get every holiday in the world, and then some (spring break, long Christmas break, etc).
On a per hour basis, they are probably paid significantly above average.
But anyway you look at it, they are hardly "dramatically underpaid."
You're comparing a median to a mean. Can you find me a median teacher salary? I suggested a rough conversion based on all people pay Social Security taxes, which would mean the median teacher salary is about $39k, compared to the median of people with bachelor's degrees of $61,700.
And most teachers have a master's degree or higher, for which the median salary is $71,600.
That was an estimated mean for 2014.
The BLS says the median was over $55k in early 2012. So that 58k for 2014 looks about right.
And yes, "most" teachers do have a master's degree. Technically. Because the actual number is about 52%, which is, just barely, "most."
I'm still having a hard time translating "slightly below average pay for their level of education, with far more time off than most" with being "dramatically underpaid."
Perhaps you could make an argument for slightly underpaid. But "dramatically?" I don't think so. Social workers, maybe, are dramatically underpaid. Teachers are not.
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BTW can we all agree salary averages are relatively useless? I always think of the story of Michael Jordan being a geology major and skewing the average salary of geology majors (not that you can't make a good living a geology major!).
You'll never be able to convince people who just instinctively hate teachers. They all remember "Mean Mrs. Crabtree" in 5th grade and decide to take their revenge on teachers now that they are adults. Well, they got us. We can't really do anything about them destroying our lives by cutting our pay and benefits, so the only solution is to go Mustachian and look for more selfish employment.
I hope everyone enjoys the current and future generations of children who are completely incapable of critical reasoning. But don't worry. As long as their jobs involve filling in Scantron sheets or parroting back memorized facts, they will be just fine.
If you are referring to me because I dared question the "teachers are underpaid" routine, I don't "hate teachers." I just get a little tired of the "we are woefully underpaid, it's so unfair" mantra.
Neither "Mrs. Crabtree" nor any other teacher ever bothered me. I got straight A's through my entire school career.
Far from "hating" teachers, I almost married one, but didn't because she couldn't get her financial house in order. Not because she was underpaid, but just because she spent too much. Getting out of that relationship, in retrospect, was one of the best decisions I ever made.
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Interesting that there's so small a difference between median and mean. I guess it makes sense, though -if everyone's on a set scale there's little to no opportunity for significant skew. Thanks for finding that.
I'd still argue that teachers are underpaid, but that data doesn't give obvious support for significantly underpaid.
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+1 for all that MoneyCat says. Over and over again - what MoneyCat says. If you think we are overpaid and under worked come do our job. Follow me around for a day. Come to professional development meetings. Watch our morale tank as students run the school and parents make demands. And kids out there - find something else to do. Anything else. At least you can go to the bathroom when you need to in some other field.
i think most here agree with you, but we also know that there is a lot of crap in many many workplaces. Think about it, most here are planning to FIRE. There must be a reason why if we are not all teachers.... could it be that teachers do not have an extra crappy job, just different type of problems?
I agree that teaching is a unique job that requires a specific personality type and, yes, the problems teachers face are different from those faced in other jobs. What drives teachers absolutely nuts is that because we all went to school, "everyone" feels sure that he knows all about teachers jobs -- and feels qualified to criticize.
I don't hate teaching -- not at all. But I do hate the politics that come with it, including high-stakes testing; and I do hate the changes that the legislature has made in the last decade. Changes that have hamstrung our administration, removed discipline from the schools, and held us accountable for things beyond our control. The reality in NC is that our legislature wants to disband public school as it currently exists, and they want to replace it with charter schools and online learning (options which are less expensive than traditional public school, but also choices not suited to all students, especially low-ability students). And I hate that any criticism towards their plan seems to be twisted into "Oh, the lazy teachers, they don't want to be held accountable for anything and can't face change."
Perhaps you could make an argument for slightly underpaid. But "dramatically?" I don't think so. Social workers, maybe, are dramatically underpaid. Teachers are not.
I don't disagree about Social Workers, but let's see what the last Census has to say, and let's look at just my state so that we're not muddying the waters by talking about a wide range of salaries across the country:
The average North Carolinian earns 53,046
The average North Carolinian household brings home 73,034
The figures do not distinguish between college graduates and other workers, but I see that 26.8% of all North Carolinians have a Bachelor's degree (or higher).
With more than two decades of teaching experience and two college degrees, I earn roughly 43K a year as a teacher. Yes, it's unfair to use one person's salary as a measure, but I don't know how many years experience the average NC teacher has; however, since I'm near retirement, I should be nearer the top than the bottom. A brand-new teacher earns around 30K.
Check the Census if you don't believe me. Check the NC teacher salary scale. The fact is that when compared to ALL workers -- college educated and not -- NC teachers are earning fairly significantly less than the average worker.
As for work time, I work 200 days a year from late August - mid June. That's 180 days with students and 20 work days and other required days (admittedly, the work days are more lax). Officially I am in the building 7.5 hours a day, and I bring work home.
Compare that to my engineer husband: He's been with the company for a long time, and he has 5 weeks of vacation plus 10 holidays each year (7 weeks off each year). That means he's putting in 225 days of work each year. He is officially in the office 8 hours a day, and he brings home work less often than I do; however, when he travels to a plant, he puts in Herculean hours and isn't rewarded for that extra effort.
Do I work fewer hours? Yes! Is it a significant amount? Not so significant as some might assume. What IS significant is that ALL teachers -- first years and experienced teachers -- all work the same number of days, whereas my husband had to "work up to" the company maximum of 5 weeks vacation. So a teacher is being rewarded with time off EARLIER than other workers. And what appears to be significant is that my work day is officially over at 2:30 each day; however, people tend to overlook that I must clock in before 7:00, and I don't get a lunch break, so my day is more compact than a typical worker's. What doesn't show is that I'm required to put in time after school for meetings, clubs, and sports events -- for me, that accounts for 3-6 hours per week beyond my work day (it varies widely from week to week).
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Find me another profession where if you have a Master's Degree, you earn $50,000 after ten years of service. Go ahead, Mr. Smartypants. And then try to live on that $50,000 in New York City or San Francisco. Then tell me again how teachers are so overpaid. Sometimes I want to walk into an engineer's or doctor's office and just start screaming at them about how they are overpaid losers and how they should all be fired just so I can show them how it feels to be a teacher every single day.
In New York a teacher with a masters and 10 years of experience would make a LOT more than that - they start at $45K for no experience, minimal education, and go up to just over 100K. http://schools.nyc.gov/TeachNYC/salary/default.htm (http://schools.nyc.gov/TeachNYC/salary/default.htm)
San Fran starts at about $45 and goes up to over $82K. http://www.sfusd.edu/en/assets/sfusd-staff/contract%20and%20salary%20schedules/Teachers%202012-2014%20salary%20schedule.pdf
(http://www.sfusd.edu/en/assets/sfusd-staff/contract%20and%20salary%20schedules/Teachers%202012-2014%20salary%20schedule.pdf)
That must be nice. Here in North Carolina you can have your master's degree AND 10 years experience and still not crack 40k. See pages 2 and 3 of the link below for the complete salary schedule.
http://www.ncpublicschools.org/docs/fbs/finance/salary/schedules/2013-14schedules.pdf
On the bright side, if I can stick it out for 35 (!) years I'll make 57k (luckily I won't have to do that since I'm somewhat Mustachian). Oh wait, that assumes the legislature actually honors the experience pay increase ladder, which they haven't for the last 6 years...despite it supposedly being a part of the contract we signed.
Maybe there is something to be said for unionization after all? (I can't believe I just said that) NC is a right to work state unlike the states listed above.
BTW can we all agree salary averages are relatively useless? I always think of the story of Michael Jordan being a geology major and skewing the average salary of geology majors (not that you can't make a good living a geology major!).
I was shocked to read that Michael Jordan has a degree in Geology (a science).
I was also a bit skeptical.
So I looked it up.
He doesn't have a BS degree in Geology (a science) , he has a BA degree in "cultural geography" (not a science).
Well, technically, he does have a BS degree, but it's not a Baccalaureate of Science, it's the bovine scatology kind of BS degree.
His diploma was up for sale early this year.
http://voices.suntimes.com/sports/michael-jordans-college-diploma-up-for-auction/
Knew it was geo-something; whoever told me that story said it was geology. I don't think he graduated before going pro, I was just commenting on how his salary had a relatively big effect on skewing the "average" earnings of people that happened to be in same field. Regardless of his major, my point remains the same.
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+1 for all that MoneyCat says. Over and over again - what MoneyCat says. If you think we are overpaid and under worked come do our job. Follow me around for a day. Come to professional development meetings. Watch our morale tank as students run the school and parents make demands. And kids out there - find something else to do. Anything else. At least you can go to the bathroom when you need to in some other field.
i think most here agree with you, but we also know that there is a lot of crap in many many workplaces. Think about it, most here are planning to FIRE. There must be a reason why if we are not all teachers.... could it be that teachers do not have an extra crappy job, just different type of problems?
I agree that teaching is a unique job that requires a specific personality type and, yes, the problems teachers face are different from those faced in other jobs. What drives teachers absolutely nuts is that because we all went to school, "everyone" feels sure that he knows all about teachers jobs -- and feels qualified to criticize.
I don't hate teaching -- not at all. But I do hate the politics that come with it, including high-stakes testing; and I do hate the changes that the legislature has made in the last decade. Changes that have hamstrung our administration, removed discipline from the schools, and held us accountable for things beyond our control. The reality in NC is that our legislature wants to disband public school as it currently exists, and they want to replace it with charter schools and online learning (options which are less expensive than traditional public school, but also choices not suited to all students, especially low-ability students). And I hate that any criticism towards their plan seems to be twisted into "Oh, the lazy teachers, they don't want to be held accountable for anything and can't face change."
Perhaps you could make an argument for slightly underpaid. But "dramatically?" I don't think so. Social workers, maybe, are dramatically underpaid. Teachers are not.
I don't disagree about Social Workers, but let's see what the last Census has to say, and let's look at just my state so that we're not muddying the waters by talking about a wide range of salaries across the country:
The average North Carolinian earns 53,046
The average North Carolinian household brings home 73,034
The figures do not distinguish between college graduates and other workers, but I see that 26.8% of all North Carolinians have a Bachelor's degree (or higher).
With more than two decades of teaching experience and two college degrees, I earn roughly 43K a year as a teacher. Yes, it's unfair to use one person's salary as a measure, but I don't know how many years experience the average NC teacher has; however, since I'm near retirement, I should be nearer the top than the bottom. A brand-new teacher earns around 30K.
Check the Census if you don't believe me. Check the NC teacher salary scale. The fact is that when compared to ALL workers -- college educated and not -- NC teachers are earning fairly significantly less than the average worker.
As for work time, I work 200 days a year from late August - mid June. That's 180 days with students and 20 work days and other required days (admittedly, the work days are more lax). Officially I am in the building 7.5 hours a day, and I bring work home.
Compare that to my engineer husband: He's been with the company for a long time, and he has 5 weeks of vacation plus 10 holidays each year (7 weeks off each year). That means he's putting in 225 days of work each year. He is officially in the office 8 hours a day, and he brings home work less often than I do; however, when he travels to a plant, he puts in Herculean hours and isn't rewarded for that extra effort.
Do I work fewer hours? Yes! Is it a significant amount? Not so significant as some might assume. What IS significant is that ALL teachers -- first years and experienced teachers -- all work the same number of days, whereas my husband had to "work up to" the company maximum of 5 weeks vacation. So a teacher is being rewarded with time off EARLIER than other workers. And what appears to be significant is that my work day is officially over at 2:30 each day; however, people tend to overlook that I must clock in before 7:00, and I don't get a lunch break, so my day is more compact than a typical worker's. What doesn't show is that I'm required to put in time after school for meetings, clubs, and sports events -- for me, that accounts for 3-6 hours per week beyond my work day (it varies widely from week to week).
Your husband is an engineer who works only 40 hours a week, gets 5 weeks of vacation?
He must either be a government employee or HOLY CRAP BATMAN! that is incredible, can you tell me where to send my resume?
I'm an engineer. I refuse to work more than 40-hours per week. But I'm surely not average (and I get paid far less than most because of it). Most engineers I know, outside the government (who sit at their desks for a maximum of 40-hours, but work far less) work far more than 40-hours per week if they expect to progress in their career.
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It amazes me how low teaching salaries are in other places of the US...I live in Pittsburgh, PA, where the LOWEST starting fresh-out-of-school teacher makes at least 40-45k a year. It's not unusual for life-long teachers to make 80-90k a year coming up on retirement.
Then I hear about 10+ year teachers making 25k a year...boggles the mind.
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...On their first day of work, I suspect the teacher's union implants a chip in their brain that recite the "teachers are underpaid!" mantra at least once a day.
I work in a related field with related perceptions of "significant underpay." It make me crazy when someone mentions that "fact."
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you need to look at what the market will bear.
I could say all day every day i think im underpaid, that doesnt make it true.
you are only grossly underpaid if you can statistically point out that you peers are making more money. how can one say that an entire filed is underpaid, based off of what?
how many jobs even offer pensions any more?
or paid vacations and sick days? when tallying those summer vacations and spring breaks, should we be adding the cost of those to salary?
i dont even think its fair to assume because you have a masters that you are obligated to be paid more.
I hate when people try to use education to justify deserving more money.
thats why you should do a little research before choosing a career, and maybe even move to a new city to maximize your income. I moved from nashville, to boston. and almost tripled my income.
yes I have a masters, but a masters in chemistry in Nashville, tn wasn't exactly rolling in the money.
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you need to look at what the market will bear.
I could say all day every day i think im underpaid, that doesnt make it true.
you are only grossly underpaid if you can statistically point out that you peers are making more money. how can one say that an entire filed is underpaid, based off of what?
how many jobs even offer pensions any more?
or paid vacations and sick days? when tallying those summer vacations and spring breaks, should we be adding the cost of those to salary?
i dont even think its fair to assume because you have a masters that you are obligated to be paid more.
I hate when people try to use education to justify deserving more money.
thats why you should do a little research before choosing a career, and maybe even move to a new city to maximize your income. I moved from nashville, to boston. and almost tripled my income.
yes I have a masters, but a masters in chemistry in Nashville, tn wasn't exactly rolling in the money.
As I said before, teaching is a terrible job in terms of pay compared to workload. I highly recommend everyone out there choose a different occupation if you live in the USA. Public school teaching will not even exist anymore within the next decade or so with the way things are going. Walmart and Bill Gates (among other "philanthropists") are converting public schools into low-wage charter schools or distance education, which will wipe out an entire segment of middle-class America and highly degrade the quality of education that children in the United States receive. Americans do not value education. Period. I have a Master's Degree in Education, but my opinion means absolutely nothing to anybody who has any power. So forget it. If you want to help people, get a high-paying job in a more lucrative field and then meddle in education like all those businessmen out there.
Unfortunately, I chose education as a field when I was a young person without enough information on it. I grew up without any role models and I have lived completely independently since I was 17 years old. I cannot go back and change my entire field of study decades later (at least not in a cost prohibitive sense), so I am stuck with this job until I can find an escape. A lot of teachers are in this position right now.
Everything I've said does not apply to the more civilized nations of the world, such as Canada and Western Europe, of course.
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you need to look at what the market will bear.
I could say all day every day i think im underpaid, that doesnt make it true.
you are only grossly underpaid if you can statistically point out that you peers are making more money. how can one say that an entire filed is underpaid, based off of what?
how many jobs even offer pensions any more?
or paid vacations and sick days? when tallying those summer vacations and spring breaks, should we be adding the cost of those to salary?
i dont even think its fair to assume because you have a masters that you are obligated to be paid more.
I hate when people try to use education to justify deserving more money.
thats why you should do a little research before choosing a career, and maybe even move to a new city to maximize your income. I moved from nashville, to boston. and almost tripled my income.
yes I have a masters, but a masters in chemistry in Nashville, tn wasn't exactly rolling in the money.
As I said before, teaching is a terrible job in terms of pay compared to workload. I highly recommend everyone out there choose a different occupation if you live in the USA. Public school teaching will not even exist anymore within the next decade or so with the way things are going. Walmart and Bill Gates (among other "philanthropists") are converting public schools into low-wage charter schools or distance education, which will wipe out an entire segment of middle-class America and highly degrade the quality of education that children in the United States receive. Americans do not value education. Period. I have a Master's Degree in Education, but my opinion means absolutely nothing to anybody who has any power. So forget it. If you want to help people, get a high-paying job in a more lucrative field and then meddle in education like all those businessmen out there.
Unfortunately, I chose education as a field when I was a young person without enough information on it. I grew up without any role models and I have lived completely independently since I was 17 years old. I cannot go back and change my entire field of study decades later (at least not in a cost prohibitive sense), so I am stuck with this job until I can find an escape. A lot of teachers are in this position right now.
Everything I've said does not apply to the more civilized nations of the world, such as Canada and Western Europe, of course.
Actually, US teachers make more, on average, than almost all teachers in Europe. Far more than most. The only European nations with higher average teacher salaries than the US are Luxembourg (which is a country in name only- it's the size of a medium sized US city) and Norway (which is floating in oil money). Teachers in most of Europe make vastly less than their American counterparts.
http://eacea.ec.europa.eu/education/eurydice/documents/facts_and_figures/salaries.pdf
And, of course, those European teachers spend far more days in the classroom than US teachers, as the US "summer vacation" doesn't exist in most (all?) European nations.
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Like all libertarians, you don't know what you are talking about.
[Mod Edit: This is a ridiculous comment, adding nothing. Leaving it, rather than censoring it, but take what you will of the speaker from it, and note that this sort of behavior is not something tolerated. Rule number 1: don't be a jerk. Thanks.
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Like all libertarians, you don't know what you are talking about.
You need to point out where the errors are. Otherwise you just look like a _______.
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you are only grossly underpaid if you can statistically point out that you peers are making more money. how can one say that an entire filed is underpaid, based off of what?
how many jobs even offer pensions any more?
or paid vacations and sick days? when tallying those summer vacations and spring breaks, should we be adding the cost of those to salary . . .
thats why you should do a little research before choosing a career, and maybe even move to a new city to maximize your income. I moved from nashville, to boston. and almost tripled my income.
A comparison between college educated professionals in jobs similar to teaching is a fair comparison. No other job is identical, of course.
True, not many jobs offer pensions, but keep in mind that they're a double-edged sword: They only make sense if you stay with the same employer for a lengthy time period, which means you're tied to a geographical area. Also, our pensions aren't gifts on top of salary -- money is deducted every month, and it's invested on our behalf. It's an investment, not a gift from the taxpayers. Some pensioners will die young and will lose on the investment, while others will outlive their own contributions and will collect more than they paid in -- but most will pretty much break even.
You do realize that summer vacation isn't a paid vacation, right? And if you count the number of actual holidays during the school year, it's pretty close to other professional's holidays. Many of the days kids are out of school are actually teacher work days.
You say that teachers should've done more research before embarking in this career. Thing is, the job has changed significantly in the last years. When I started, it was a secure job with a low paycheck . . . but moderately good benefits, and the promise of a decent pension if you put in the years. Now our current legislature has removed those positives, but they still want to keep the low paycheck. We signed on for one deal, and it's changing fast. This is not particularly unique -- technology and other faucets of society have changed other jobs too.
As I said before, teaching is a terrible job in terms of pay compared to workload. I highly recommend everyone out there choose a different occupation if you live in the USA. Public school teaching will not even exist anymore within the next decade or so with the way things are going. Walmart and Bill Gates (among other "philanthropists") are converting public schools into low-wage charter schools or distance education, which will wipe out an entire segment of middle-class America and highly degrade the quality of education that children in the United States receive.
This is true. In another generation, public school as we know it now is going to be all but gone, and the things that are pushing their way into society are going to be good for a few students . . . but very bad for the majority. The writing is on the wall.
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You do realize that summer vacation isn't a paid vacation, right? And if you count the number of actual holidays during the school year, it's pretty close to other professional's holidays. Many of the days kids are out of school are actually teacher work days.
You're a salaried employee, and get two months off in the summer as part of your contract. Yeah, that's paid vacation, regardless of how your pay periods are structured (and many school districts have the option of 12 month pay).
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And, of course, those European teachers spend far more days in the classroom than US teachers, as the US "summer vacation" doesn't exist in most (all?) European nations.
In Belgium, teachers are working about 180 days a year. Summer vacation is two-month long (July and August).
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You do realize that summer vacation isn't a paid vacation, right? And if you count the number of actual holidays during the school year, it's pretty close to other professional's holidays. Many of the days kids are out of school are actually teacher work days.
You're a salaried employee, and get two months off in the summer as part of your contract. Yeah, that's paid vacation, regardless of how your pay periods are structured (and many school districts have the option of 12 month pay).
Actually, my contract runs for 10 months (mid-August to mid-June). So yes, I do get 2 months of UNpaid vacation (which I am very grateful for). During this time, as a young teacher, I get the benefit of doing UNpaid mandatory school trainings. I also can and do work other jobs (tutoring, coaching, babysitting) during the summer, as I do during the school year.
BTW, for non-public employees, there are ~260 weekdays in a year. Most private sector workers get the 10 legal bank holidays off, which leaves 250 days. Starting private sector employees typically get a minimum of 2 weeks vacation, so that leaves 240 days of work over a 12 month work year, for an average of 20 days of work per month.
For teachers here in NC there are 180 school days. 14 workdays. 10 days of professional development (although it is sometimes more, depending on where you stand in your licensure). New teachers get 5 vacation days off (I've never used these since using a sub is often a nightmare!). So that leaves 199 days of work over a 10 month contract, for an average of 19.9 days of work per month.
"But teachers work get to go home early!" While it's true some teachers hightail it out of school 15 minutes after the bell rings, most do not. I can't speak for the experiences for all teachers, but most nights I spend 1-2 hours lesson planning or grading (and this is just to maintain - not to get ahead). This is after I coach for 2 hours, year around (Yes, this is a CHOICE - I guess I'm a glutton for punishment). I also coach the majority of Saturdays during the school year since we have meets. This lucrative coaching gig nets me $500-$1000 a year, depending on the state budget. During the school year this is my typical week: 11-12 hour workdays, coaching Saturdays, play catch up on Sundays. I work anywhere between 55 and 70 hours a week. The good teachers I associate with that are not coaches work 50+ hours a week.
I didn't get into teaching and coaching for the money, and you'll rarely hear me complain about it. I love what I do. As a Mustachian, even at my salary level, I'm thriving. What truly irks me is the shit I hear from people who lack basic understanding of the facts. I get so tired of hearing that most teachers are overpaid for shitty results. Yes, there are shitty teachers out there, as there is in any profession. However, there are a lot of good ones too, and these people are making a difference. I get paid 38k a year and 93% of my senior students passed the advanced placement exam in my class. I think that's a god damn bargain - I helped my students save more in college tuition than my total salary.
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To get back on topic:
A lot of teachers suck at money management as do people in other professions. I am abhorred by the lack of financial literacy by my fellow teachers, just as I am in my peers of different professions.
Despite teaching history, I'm doing what I can to improve financial literacy for my students. I have a short Powerpoint that I show my students covering all basic topics of money management that hopefully gets a few going in the right direction. While a few students appear to be bored, some become quite interested when I tell them I'm going to teach them one way to become a millionaire (wow after just reading that last line I must sound like a sleazy late night TV ad). Even if one person gets the message, it could wind up being a million dollar lecture*!
*Depending what the market returns in the future, of course
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Let me rephrase. Let's say you're a salaried employee, work year round, but for some reason you get paid your entire salary in January of every year in one lump sum. Would it be accurate to say that 11 months of the year are unpaid in this scenario? Most people would agree that that would be nonsense - for salaried employees, it's irrelevant what sort of structure you have as far as pay dates.
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To get back on topic:
A lot of teachers suck at money management as do people in other professions. I am abhorred by the lack of financial literacy by my fellow teachers, just as I am in my peers of different professions.
Despite teeaching history, I'm doing what I can to improve financial literacy for my students. I have a short Powerpoint that I show my students covering all basic topics of money management that hopefully gets a few going in the right direction. While a few students appear to be bored, some become quite interested when I tell them I'm going to teach them one way to become a millionaire (wow after just reading that last line I must sound like a sleazy late night TV ad). Even if one person gets the message, it could wind up being a million dollar lecture*!
*Depending what the market returns in the future, of course
Thank you for this!
A substitute teacher had left over time at the end of an economics class last spring.
He took the opportunity to show the class that every teenager in the room had the ability to become a millionaire by putting $1000 in an IRA and allowing compound interest to work.
He also pointed out that each of them would have that much money but that only 1 or 2 of them would do it - the rest would spend it on cars and clothes and going out.
I have been teaching my DD this her whole life...but the light switched on for her with this lesson.
Imagine my happiness when she bounced into the house asking for help in choosing a Vanguard account.
Teachers are people - and not all of them got training in personal finance.
Props to you for spreading the word - you might not have been the sub in that class - but who knows? You might have been the inspiration for them!
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Let me rephrase. Let's say you're a salaried employee, work year round, but for some reason you get paid your entire salary in January of every year in one lump sum. Would it be accurate to say that 11 months of the year are unpaid in this scenario? Most people would agree that that would be nonsense - for salaried employees, it's irrelevant what sort of structure you have as far as pay dates.
Of course not, because in that case you're getting paid for 12 months of work. To use an equally ridiculous example, say you work 1 month in a year and get paid for 1 months work. Would it be accurate to say that you get paid for a year of work? Of course not.
Teachers get paid for the number of days they work. Many districts show equivalent hourly rates for annual salaries that you can examine (keep in mind that those hourly rates don't include any time spent working after school, at home, or for professional development – just like hourly rates for most non-teachers).
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so we can look at it as paid vacation or not. but that doesnt change the fact that there are 2 months you can increase your income. and for those who say but there are mandatory unpaid work shops in the summer. this wasnt a surprise.
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Like all libertarians, you don't know what you are talking about.
Well, I'm no teacher, but I'm pretty sure that somewhere in the process of obtaining 3 college degrees, I learned that an ad hominem attack is NOT a sufficient rebuttal to an argument.
God help the kids you teach if you can't come up with a better argument to support your position than "I don't like what you said, so you suck, nanny nanny boo boo!"
On second thought, forget the college degrees, I'm pretty sure my HS teachers taught me that.
Clearly, some teachers are more qualified than others...
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Like all libertarians, you don't know what you are talking about.
You need to point out where the errors are. Otherwise you just look like a _______.
Oops, I guess I should have read your response before posting. You got it right.
I don't mind debating the "we are underpaid, we are underpaid" teacher. But it has to be an intellectual debate that rises above what you'd expect from 8-year old children on a school playground.
Teacher said, in effect, "US teachers make less than European teachers." I posted a rebuttal from a European teaching organization showing that, with rare exception, American teachers make not only more, but significantly more than European teachers (and, for the most part, work far less days).
So if Teacher wants to impress us, she should REBUT my evidence with something more than "You disagree with me. I hate you. You suck!"
I am an engineer. I'm not an expert on teaching. So it should be easy for someone "in the profession" to refute my "erroneous" statements if they are, in fact, erroneous.
So have at it, teach. Show me where I'm wrong.
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you need to look at what the market will bear.
I could say all day every day i think im underpaid, that doesnt make it true.
you are only grossly underpaid if you can statistically point out that you peers are making more money. how can one say that an entire filed is underpaid, based off of what?
how many jobs even offer pensions any more?
or paid vacations and sick days? when tallying those summer vacations and spring breaks, should we be adding the cost of those to salary?
i dont even think its fair to assume because you have a masters that you are obligated to be paid more.
I hate when people try to use education to justify deserving more money.
thats why you should do a little research before choosing a career, and maybe even move to a new city to maximize your income. I moved from nashville, to boston. and almost tripled my income.
yes I have a masters, but a masters in chemistry in Nashville, tn wasn't exactly rolling in the money.
As I said before, teaching is a terrible job in terms of pay compared to workload. I highly recommend everyone out there choose a different occupation if you live in the USA. Public school teaching will not even exist anymore within the next decade or so with the way things are going. Walmart and Bill Gates (among other "philanthropists") are converting public schools into low-wage charter schools or distance education, which will wipe out an entire segment of middle-class America and highly degrade the quality of education that children in the United States receive. Americans do not value education. Period. I have a Master's Degree in Education, but my opinion means absolutely nothing to anybody who has any power. So forget it. If you want to help people, get a high-paying job in a more lucrative field and then meddle in education like all those businessmen out there.
Unfortunately, I chose education as a field when I was a young person without enough information on it. I grew up without any role models and I have lived completely independently since I was 17 years old. I cannot go back and change my entire field of study decades later (at least not in a cost prohibitive sense), so I am stuck with this job until I can find an escape. A lot of teachers are in this position right now.
Everything I've said does not apply to the more civilized nations of the world, such as Canada and Western Europe, of course.
Actually, US teachers make more, on average, than almost all teachers in Europe. Far more than most. The only European nations with higher average teacher salaries than the US are Luxembourg (which is a country in name only- it's the size of a medium sized US city) and Norway (which is floating in oil money). Teachers in most of Europe make vastly less than their American counterparts.
http://eacea.ec.europa.eu/education/eurydice/documents/facts_and_figures/salaries.pdf
And, of course, those European teachers spend far more days in the classroom than US teachers, as the US "summer vacation" doesn't exist in most (all?) European nations.
Practically any professional job makes more in the U.S. than in Europe. On average, engineers make way more in the U.S than in European countries. Same story with doctors. I didn't think anyone would be surprised U.S. teachers, engineers, doctors, and most other professions make more than those in the same position in other countries...we happen to be the country with the largest economy in the world, after all. The fact that we have such huge tax revenues and our leaders can't manage it properly is pathetic.
I was a bit skeptical of your claim about European teachers not having a summer break and working more in the classroom. So I googled it and found this interesting link below. It shows that the majority of European countries have 2 months or more off for summer, and some have even more time off (e.g. "Autumn break") during the school year. Most countries have approximately 180 days, the same as in the U.S. although some have a few more days and some have quite a few less (time to move to Lithuania?!). http://eacea.ec.europa.eu/education/eurydice/documents/facts_and_figures/school_calendar_EN.pdf
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Like all libertarians, you don't know what you are talking about.
You need to point out where the errors are. Otherwise you just look like a _______.
Oops, I guess I should have read your response before posting. You got it right.
I don't mind debating the "we are underpaid, we are underpaid" teacher. But it has to be an intellectual debate that rises above what you'd expect from 8-year old children on a school playground.
Teacher said, in effect, "US teachers make less than European teachers." I posted a rebuttal from a European teaching organization showing that, with rare exception, American teachers make not only more, but significantly more than European teachers (and, for the most part, work far less days).
So if Teacher wants to impress us, she should REBUT my evidence with something more than "You disagree with me. I hate you. You suck!"
I am an engineer. I'm not an expert on teaching. So it should be easy for someone "in the profession" to refute my "erroneous" statements if they are, in fact, erroneous.
So have at it, teach. Show me where I'm wrong.
Did you read your link? From earlier in the thread, the average teacher makes $55k. Here are some countries in Europe with higher average teacher salaries, according to your own link: Belgium (where upper secondary teachers average $72k), Denmark ($85k), Germany (no average, but the minimum is higher than the US average), Luxembourg, Austria, Finland, Norway. The reason is looks like you don't know what you're talking about is that the data you used to support that "US teachers make more than almost all teachers in Europe " in fact shows noting of the sort! You missed at least 5 countries with higher average teacher salaries than the US, including the most populous one!
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The average North Carolinian earns 53,046
The average North Carolinian household brings home 73,034
Which source did you use for these numbers? I am seeing less than 50k for the median NC household income from a few websites.
http://www.usa.com/north-carolina-state-income-and-careers.htm
Your husband is an engineer who works only 40 hours a week, gets 5 weeks of vacation?
He must either be a government employee or HOLY CRAP BATMAN! that is incredible, can you tell me where to send my resume?
I just started a new software job in the Triangle, I get 20 days with just two years of real work experience, plus every Federal Reserve holiday. Every guy in the rank above gets 25 days.
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Well, come on now. I'm a teacher, so I know the pay isn't great, but it isn't hard to save up money to cover expenses for the Summer if you brown bag your lunch everyday, ride your bicycle to work, shop at wholesale clubs and thrift shops instead of retail shopping, etc.
not exactly the average american tho'!
And they would laugh at your idea it's either easy or even desirable. But let's go to Starbucks! ;-)
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Like all libertarians, you don't know what you are talking about.
You need to point out where the errors are. Otherwise you just look like a _______.
Oops, I guess I should have read your response before posting. You got it right.
I don't mind debating the "we are underpaid, we are underpaid" teacher. But it has to be an intellectual debate that rises above what you'd expect from 8-year old children on a school playground.
Teacher said, in effect, "US teachers make less than European teachers." I posted a rebuttal from a European teaching organization showing that, with rare exception, American teachers make not only more, but significantly more than European teachers (and, for the most part, work far less days).
So if Teacher wants to impress us, she should REBUT my evidence with something more than "You disagree with me. I hate you. You suck!"
I am an engineer. I'm not an expert on teaching. So it should be easy for someone "in the profession" to refute my "erroneous" statements if they are, in fact, erroneous.
So have at it, teach. Show me where I'm wrong.
Did you read your link? From earlier in the thread, the average teacher makes $55k. Here are some countries in Europe with higher average teacher salaries, according to your own link: Belgium (where upper secondary teachers average $72k), Denmark ($85k), Germany (no average, but the minimum is higher than the US average), Luxembourg, Austria, Finland, Norway. The reason is looks like you don't know what you're talking about is that the data you used to support that "US teachers make more than almost all teachers in Europe " in fact shows noting of the sort! You missed at least 5 countries with higher average teacher salaries than the US, including the most populous one!
Belgium only posted averages for certain positions in certain parts of the country, so it's impossible to tell what the average for all teachers in all parts of the country is. If you CHERRY PICK only the salaries in the Flemish region (generally, the wealthiest, most urban, and highest paid) of upper secondary teachers ONLY (those below secondary make less, on average than US teachers), those Upper secondary teachers in the Flemish region ONLY make more on average than the average US teacher. That does NOT, however, mean that the average Belgian teacher makes more than the average US teacher.
Austria also included very incomplete data, so I could not make a determination (nor can you).
For Finland, the numbers varied widely. Secondary teachers made FAR more than primary teachers. However, it is logical to assume that there will be at least as many teachers, and students, in primary school as secondary (probably more). Hence, I did an average. Using an average, the Finish teachers made slightly less than American teachers. I don't know how anyone could take those numbers and project that Finnish teachers are far better paid than American teachers (as the OP implied).
You got me on Denmark. I missed that one.
Okay, so in Luxembourg, Denmark, and Norway, teachers make more than in the USA. Hell, I'll even stipulate that they make more in Austria, Belgium, and Finland (though there is not enough evidence to really show that.
Those 5 SMALL countries have a combined population of about 36 million. A bit more than half of the population of Italy alone (where teachers make FAR less than in the USA). The data are incomplete on a number of European nations, including a couple of large ones. But the data that is available clearly suggests that teachers in MOST European nations make LESS than in the USA (and many make far less), and even if the few where they make more, it's just a tiny bit more (with the exception of tiny nations like Luxembourg, Norway, and Denmark).
That is NOT convincing evidence that Europeans "value teachers" and pay significantly more to their teachers, as the OP haughtily implied.
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To get back on topic:
A lot of teachers suck at money management as do people in other professions. I am abhorred by the lack of financial literacy by my fellow teachers, just as I am in my peers of different professions.
Despite teaching history, I'm doing what I can to improve financial literacy for my students. I have a short Powerpoint that I show my students covering all basic topics of money management that hopefully gets a few going in the right direction. While a few students appear to be bored, some become quite interested when I tell them I'm going to teach them one way to become a millionaire (wow after just reading that last line I must sound like a sleazy late night TV ad). Even if one person gets the message, it could wind up being a million dollar lecture*!
Sounds great. If schools won't make basic financial literacy a required class, then you are doing your students a great service in slipping a little financial sense into your history classes.
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you need to look at what the market will bear.
I could say all day every day i think im underpaid, that doesnt make it true.
you are only grossly underpaid if you can statistically point out that you peers are making more money. how can one say that an entire filed is underpaid, based off of what?
how many jobs even offer pensions any more?
or paid vacations and sick days? when tallying those summer vacations and spring breaks, should we be adding the cost of those to salary?
i dont even think its fair to assume because you have a masters that you are obligated to be paid more.
I hate when people try to use education to justify deserving more money.
thats why you should do a little research before choosing a career, and maybe even move to a new city to maximize your income. I moved from nashville, to boston. and almost tripled my income.
yes I have a masters, but a masters in chemistry in Nashville, tn wasn't exactly rolling in the money.
As I said before, teaching is a terrible job in terms of pay compared to workload. I highly recommend everyone out there choose a different occupation if you live in the USA. Public school teaching will not even exist anymore within the next decade or so with the way things are going. Walmart and Bill Gates (among other "philanthropists") are converting public schools into low-wage charter schools or distance education, which will wipe out an entire segment of middle-class America and highly degrade the quality of education that children in the United States receive. Americans do not value education. Period. I have a Master's Degree in Education, but my opinion means absolutely nothing to anybody who has any power. So forget it. If you want to help people, get a high-paying job in a more lucrative field and then meddle in education like all those businessmen out there.
Unfortunately, I chose education as a field when I was a young person without enough information on it. I grew up without any role models and I have lived completely independently since I was 17 years old. I cannot go back and change my entire field of study decades later (at least not in a cost prohibitive sense), so I am stuck with this job until I can find an escape. A lot of teachers are in this position right now.
Everything I've said does not apply to the more civilized nations of the world, such as Canada and Western Europe, of course.
Actually, US teachers make more, on average, than almost all teachers in Europe. Far more than most. The only European nations with higher average teacher salaries than the US are Luxembourg (which is a country in name only- it's the size of a medium sized US city) and Norway (which is floating in oil money). Teachers in most of Europe make vastly less than their American counterparts.
http://eacea.ec.europa.eu/education/eurydice/documents/facts_and_figures/salaries.pdf
And, of course, those European teachers spend far more days in the classroom than US teachers, as the US "summer vacation" doesn't exist in most (all?) European nations.
Practically any professional job makes more in the U.S. than in Europe. On average, engineers make way more in the U.S than in European countries. Same story with doctors. I didn't think anyone would be surprised U.S. teachers, engineers, doctors, and most other professions make more than those in the same position in other countries...we happen to be the country with the largest economy in the world, after all. The fact that we have such huge tax revenues and our leaders can't manage it properly is pathetic.
Yes, most jobs in the US pay more than in most European countries (though there are exceptions in tiny, very wealthy countries like Luxembourg, Denmark, and Norway).
What got me going was the comment by the "underpaid" US teacher that somehow Europeans were heaping riches upon their teachers because they value education more than the US, and that just is not true. On average, teachers in Europe, even in the wealthier nations, make similar, or slightly lower, wages than what their counterparts make in the USA. It's not like teachers in Italy, France, Spain, the UK, or Germany are raking in big bucks while their poor, underpaid American counterparts are living hand to mouth on their "underpaid" 56-58k per year average salary.
I'll go back to my original point. I never claimed American teachers were getting rich. But their incessant claims of being woefully underpaid compared to similarly educated professionals in other fields just aren't true. They make slightly less than average similarly educated professionals in the USA (slightly less, not A LOT less). They make at least comparable wages to what they'd make in most other nations.
I think teachers look at doctors, lawyers, scientists, MBAs, and engineers, see that they are paid less, then go into the "we are woefully underpaid" mantra. They don't consider at the fact that those folks are, on average, better educated (and took far more rigorous curricula), and work more days and longer hours. They just see that SOME professionals make more than they do, then start screaming "underpaid! underpaid!" They don't even consider social workers, musicians, and many other degreed professionals that make far less on average than they do. You'll never see a teacher look at a bunch of social workers or musicians in the symphony (who typically have similar education levels, but far lower salaries) and claim "we are overpaid!" :)
Teacher's ain't getting rich, but they for damned sure aren't starving. Just tone down the "woe is me, we are soooooo underpaid" rhetoric once in a while.
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Did you read your link? From earlier in the thread, the average teacher makes $55k. Here are some countries in Europe with higher average teacher salaries, according to your own link: Belgium (where upper secondary teachers average $72k), Denmark ($85k), Germany (no average, but the minimum is higher than the US average), Luxembourg, Austria, Finland, Norway. The reason is looks like you don't know what you're talking about is that the data you used to support that "US teachers make more than almost all teachers in Europe " in fact shows noting of the sort! You missed at least 5 countries with higher average teacher salaries than the US, including the most populous one!
Belgium only posted averages for certain positions in certain parts of the country, so it's impossible to tell what the average for all teachers in all parts of the country is. If you CHERRY PICK only the salaries in the Flemish region (generally, the wealthiest, most urban, and highest paid) of upper secondary teachers ONLY (those below secondary make less, on average than US teachers), those Upper secondary teachers in the Flemish region ONLY make more on average than the average US teacher. That does NOT, however, mean that the average Belgian teacher makes more than the average US teacher.
Austria also included very incomplete data, so I could not make a determination (nor can you).
For Finland, the numbers varied widely. Secondary teachers made FAR more than primary teachers. However, it is logical to assume that there will be at least as many teachers, and students, in primary school as secondary (probably more). Hence, I did an average. Using an average, the Finish teachers made slightly less than American teachers. I don't know how anyone could take those numbers and project that Finnish teachers are far better paid than American teachers (as the OP implied).
You got me on Denmark. I missed that one.
Okay, so in Luxembourg, Denmark, and Norway, teachers make more than in the USA. Hell, I'll even stipulate that they make more in Austria, Belgium, and Finland (though there is not enough evidence to really show that.
Those 5 SMALL countries have a combined population of about 36 million. A bit more than half of the population of Italy alone (where teachers make FAR less than in the USA). The data are incomplete on a number of European nations, including a couple of large ones. But the data that is available clearly suggests that teachers in MOST European nations make LESS than in the USA (and many make far less), and even if the few where they make more, it's just a tiny bit more (with the exception of tiny nations like Luxembourg, Norway, and Denmark).
That is NOT convincing evidence that Europeans "value teachers" and pay significantly more to their teachers, as the OP haughtily implied.
What you said:
Actually, US teachers make more, on average, than almost all teachers in Europe. Far more than most. The only European nations with higher average teacher salaries than the US are Luxembourg (which is a country in name only- it's the size of a medium sized US city) and Norway (which is floating in oil money). Teachers in most of Europe make vastly less than their American counterparts.
http://eacea.ec.europa.eu/education/eurydice/documents/facts_and_figures/salaries.pdf
And, of course, those European teachers spend far more days in the classroom than US teachers, as the US "summer vacation" doesn't exist in most (all?) European nations.
I'm not responsible for you providing evidence that is insufficient to justify your conclusion. You're making statements without sufficient evidence. If the data isn't of sufficient quality, then you shouldn't have tried to use it to prove your point – which, again, was that:
US teachers make more, on average, than almost all teachers in Europe. Far more than most.
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this whole argument went straw man many posts ago.
you cant go overseas and say look they make soooo much more money than we do, so we should make sooo much more as well.
do they also pay more for groceries? are taxes higher? are there fewer teachers? more students? what does inflation look like? is there a pension plans?
the fact that one field pays more or less than another field is called capitalism. if you dont like it, dont show up for work.
this original post about teachers having to take out loans is very unfortunate. however there are are other far more marginalized groups of people who make much less who handle their money much better. so its very difficult to pity teachers and much easier to wonder why they insist on living from pay check to paycheck, regardless of how 'little' they make.
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You're a salaried employee, and get two months off in the summer as part of your contract. Yeah, that's paid vacation, regardless of how your pay periods are structured (and many school districts have the option of 12 month pay).
Not according to my contract. I didn't get into teaching and coaching for the money, and you'll rarely hear me complain about it. I love what I do. As a Mustachian, even at my salary level, I'm thriving. What truly irks me is the shit I hear from people who lack basic understanding of the facts.
Yes, this exactly. I definitely grow tired of being told "facts" about teaching that are blatant lies, usually repeated by people who will not listen to the truth. Teacher said, in effect, "US teachers make less than European teachers." I posted a rebuttal from a European teaching organization showing that, with rare exception, American teachers make not only more, but significantly more than European teachers (and, for the most part, work far less days) . . .
I am an engineer. I'm not an expert on teaching. So it should be easy for someone "in the profession" to refute my "erroneous" statements if they are, in fact, erroneous.
So have at it, teach. Show me where I'm wrong.
I have no real knowledge or interest in how teachers are paid in other countries; I assume that the differing variables are numerous and would muddy the waters anyway. What I do know for a fact: My daughter's English boyfriend has a sister who wants to become a teacher. Like him, she also wants to move to America and become an American citizen. At her mother's prodding, she did some investigation . . . and she decided that she does want to become a teacher, but she gave on the idea of doing it in America.
As someone "in the profession", I did refute your errors. I gave you stats from the last Census.
The average North Carolinian earns 53,046
The average North Carolinian household brings home 73,034
Which source did you use for these numbers? I am seeing less than 50k for the median NC household income from a few websites.
US Census Bureau. It was days ago, and I don't remember the exact link, but I found it through Google. I think teachers look at doctors, lawyers, scientists, MBAs, and engineers, see that they are paid less, then go into the "we are woefully underpaid" mantra. They don't consider at the fact that those folks are, on average, better educated (and took far more rigorous curricula), and work more days and longer hours. They just see that SOME professionals make more than they do, then start screaming "underpaid! underpaid!" They don't even consider social workers, musicians, and many other degreed professionals that make far less on average than they do. You'll never see a teacher look at a bunch of social workers or musicians in the symphony (who typically have similar education levels, but far lower salaries) and claim "we are overpaid!" :)
I don't deny that other professions are also underpaid, but that doesn't change the facts.
Traditionally teaching has been a low-paying job -- but that low salary was balanced out by some very nice perks: A mom-friendly, predictable schedule; security; good benefits. Except for the schedule, those positives have been removed. The news this week is that we're finally being given a small raise (after a 6-year salary freeze, during which insurance costs soared), but at the same time we are losing our longevity pay -- some people are actually getting a salary cut. I'm getting a .3 raise -- again, after a 6-year salary freeze. Other state employees had a two-year salary freeze, after which they were "caught up" on the salary scale, and they are NOT losing their longevity pay.
Yes, the above poster who commented that some people just hate teachers -- possibly because of Mean Old Mrs. Crabtree back in elementary school -- is right. We can point out numbers and facts, yet some people will never believe them.
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Every district I've work in requires pay over 12 months.
At my current smaller district I asked if I could do 10 months and she said no based on data from districts that do have 10 months and the issues you speak of. Just crazy that educators can't budget for a two month gap.
Somewhat similar to the nonsense called "summer pay" they have in Norway (and maybe other places?). In the summer you get an extra paycheck for 10% of previous years salary. The brief time I worked there I was wondering how this worked, and what the point was. Of course it only means that they withhold and extra 10% of each paycheck, have an interest free loan for a year, and then pay it back to you! And this is on top of paid vacations, so not like people don't get paid those months. Just the benevolent state helping you save up for that extra spending..
All part of the general government policy that the citizens are too stupid to handle anything beyond bodily functions on their own.
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Did you read your link? From earlier in the thread, the average teacher makes $55k. Here are some countries in Europe with higher average teacher salaries, according to your own link: Belgium (where upper secondary teachers average $72k), Denmark ($85k), Germany (no average, but the minimum is higher than the US average), Luxembourg, Austria, Finland, Norway. The reason is looks like you don't know what you're talking about is that the data you used to support that "US teachers make more than almost all teachers in Europe " in fact shows noting of the sort! You missed at least 5 countries with higher average teacher salaries than the US, including the most populous one!
Belgium only posted averages for certain positions in certain parts of the country, so it's impossible to tell what the average for all teachers in all parts of the country is. If you CHERRY PICK only the salaries in the Flemish region (generally, the wealthiest, most urban, and highest paid) of upper secondary teachers ONLY (those below secondary make less, on average than US teachers), those Upper secondary teachers in the Flemish region ONLY make more on average than the average US teacher. That does NOT, however, mean that the average Belgian teacher makes more than the average US teacher.
Austria also included very incomplete data, so I could not make a determination (nor can you).
For Finland, the numbers varied widely. Secondary teachers made FAR more than primary teachers. However, it is logical to assume that there will be at least as many teachers, and students, in primary school as secondary (probably more). Hence, I did an average. Using an average, the Finish teachers made slightly less than American teachers. I don't know how anyone could take those numbers and project that Finnish teachers are far better paid than American teachers (as the OP implied).
You got me on Denmark. I missed that one.
Okay, so in Luxembourg, Denmark, and Norway, teachers make more than in the USA. Hell, I'll even stipulate that they make more in Austria, Belgium, and Finland (though there is not enough evidence to really show that.
Those 5 SMALL countries have a combined population of about 36 million. A bit more than half of the population of Italy alone (where teachers make FAR less than in the USA). The data are incomplete on a number of European nations, including a couple of large ones. But the data that is available clearly suggests that teachers in MOST European nations make LESS than in the USA (and many make far less), and even if the few where they make more, it's just a tiny bit more (with the exception of tiny nations like Luxembourg, Norway, and Denmark).
That is NOT convincing evidence that Europeans "value teachers" and pay significantly more to their teachers, as the OP haughtily implied.
What you said:
Actually, US teachers make more, on average, than almost all teachers in Europe. Far more than most. The only European nations with higher average teacher salaries than the US are Luxembourg (which is a country in name only- it's the size of a medium sized US city) and Norway (which is floating in oil money). Teachers in most of Europe make vastly less than their American counterparts.
http://eacea.ec.europa.eu/education/eurydice/documents/facts_and_figures/salaries.pdf
And, of course, those European teachers spend far more days in the classroom than US teachers, as the US "summer vacation" doesn't exist in most (all?) European nations.
I'm not responsible for you providing evidence that is insufficient to justify your conclusion. You're making statements without sufficient evidence. If the data isn't of sufficient quality, then you shouldn't have tried to use it to prove your point – which, again, was that:
US teachers make more, on average, than almost all teachers in Europe. Far more than most.
The evidence I presented is adequate to support my statements.
In a couple of TINY countries in Europe, teachers clearly get paid more than the USA (e.g. Luxembourg, Norway, and Denmark).
In the larger wealthy countries, the evidence is not complete, but the salaries appear to be similar or lower than in the USA. Germany (the largest nation) is inconclusive, but they probably make similar salaries to Americans. In France and the UK, the evidence is inconclusive, but they probably make slightly less than the US. In Italy, Portugal, Spain, they make significantly less than in the USA.
In many European nations, it isn't even close, teachers make far less than their US counterparts.
Hence, to claim that teacher salaries are significantly higher in Europe than the USA, as the previous poster (not you) implied, is incorrect. At best, you could surmise that in certain large, rich European nations, salaries are COMPETITIVE (not vastly superior) to those in the USA.
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You're a salaried employee, and get two months off in the summer as part of your contract. Yeah, that's paid vacation, regardless of how your pay periods are structured (and many school districts have the option of 12 month pay).
Not according to my contract. I didn't get into teaching and coaching for the money, and you'll rarely hear me complain about it. I love what I do. As a Mustachian, even at my salary level, I'm thriving. What truly irks me is the shit I hear from people who lack basic understanding of the facts.
Yes, this exactly. I definitely grow tired of being told "facts" about teaching that are blatant lies, usually repeated by people who will not listen to the truth. Teacher said, in effect, "US teachers make less than European teachers." I posted a rebuttal from a European teaching organization showing that, with rare exception, American teachers make not only more, but significantly more than European teachers (and, for the most part, work far less days) . . .
I am an engineer. I'm not an expert on teaching. So it should be easy for someone "in the profession" to refute my "erroneous" statements if they are, in fact, erroneous.
So have at it, teach. Show me where I'm wrong.
I have no real knowledge or interest in how teachers are paid in other countries; I assume that the differing variables are numerous and would muddy the waters anyway. What I do know for a fact: My daughter's English boyfriend has a sister who wants to become a teacher. Like him, she also wants to move to America and become an American citizen. At her mother's prodding, she did some investigation . . . and she decided that she does want to become a teacher, but she gave on the idea of doing it in America.
As someone "in the profession", I did refute your errors. I gave you stats from the last Census.
The average North Carolinian earns 53,046
The average North Carolinian household brings home 73,034
Which source did you use for these numbers? I am seeing less than 50k for the median NC household income from a few websites.
US Census Bureau. It was days ago, and I don't remember the exact link, but I found it through Google. I think teachers look at doctors, lawyers, scientists, MBAs, and engineers, see that they are paid less, then go into the "we are woefully underpaid" mantra. They don't consider at the fact that those folks are, on average, better educated (and took far more rigorous curricula), and work more days and longer hours. They just see that SOME professionals make more than they do, then start screaming "underpaid! underpaid!" They don't even consider social workers, musicians, and many other degreed professionals that make far less on average than they do. You'll never see a teacher look at a bunch of social workers or musicians in the symphony (who typically have similar education levels, but far lower salaries) and claim "we are overpaid!" :)
I don't deny that other professions are also underpaid, but that doesn't change the facts.
Traditionally teaching has been a low-paying job -- but that low salary was balanced out by some very nice perks: A mom-friendly, predictable schedule; security; good benefits. Except for the schedule, those positives have been removed. The news this week is that we're finally being given a small raise (after a 6-year salary freeze, during which insurance costs soared), but at the same time we are losing our longevity pay -- some people are actually getting a salary cut. I'm getting a .3 raise -- again, after a 6-year salary freeze. Other state employees had a two-year salary freeze, after which they were "caught up" on the salary scale, and they are NOT losing their longevity pay.
Yes, the above poster who commented that some people just hate teachers -- possibly because of Mean Old Mrs. Crabtree back in elementary school -- is right. We can point out numbers and facts, yet some people will never believe them.
I'm not sure we totally disagree. I've said that teachers get paid a bit less than average for their level of education. And, as you said, the job has some perks that other jobs don't have. I also realize that since the recession, things have been a bit less rosy for teachers (cut backs and the like).
But still, their salary is a BIT less than average for the education level. It ain't "Holy Cow, we are woefully underpaid compared to our peers! Life is so unfair! Why are teachers being treated so badly?" My point is that teachers scream bloody murder at the drop of a hat about how poorly they are treated and how badly they are paid, when, in fact, they are doing a whole lot better than a lot of other folks.
As I've said time and time again, you won't get rich teaching, but you won't starve, either. So tone down the constant "woe is me" rhetoric. Plenty of other people have it far worse than you do...
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Traditionally teaching has been a low-paying job -- but that low salary was balanced out by some very nice perks: A mom-friendly, predictable schedule; security; good benefits. Except for the schedule, those positives have been removed. The news this week is that we're finally being given a small raise (after a 6-year salary freeze, during which insurance costs soared), but at the same time we are losing our longevity pay -- some people are actually getting a salary cut. I'm getting a .3 raise -- again, after a 6-year salary freeze. Other state employees had a two-year salary freeze, after which they were "caught up" on the salary scale, and they are NOT losing their longevity pay.
Yes, the above poster who commented that some people just hate teachers -- possibly because of Mean Old Mrs. Crabtree back in elementary school -- is right. We can point out numbers and facts, yet some people will never believe them.
It's not really worth arguing with people about any of this anymore, because they come up with whatever half-baked statistics they want to justify whatever reformy nonsense and anti-teacher rhetoric they want to believe and no amount of contrary fact-based information combined with real-life experience will ever dissuade them from their ideology. Teachers have zero power, but they do represent a large portion of the remaining 11.3% of the American workforce that is Unionized, so we are going to be destroyed by the corporations that own the US government, so the USA can be more like the Third World countries that the corporations admire. I have just gotten to the point where I have accepted that public education as we know it is going to be completely destroyed along with a large chunk of the middle-class jobs that depend on it. I am getting out while the getting is good and I am going to sit back and laugh at all the "reformers" while I watch American education go up in flames. It's basically all going back to the way it was over a century ago and American educational competitiveness will be at an end.
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... It's basically all going back to the way it was over a century ago and American educational competitiveness will be at an end.
This will sound snarky, but in some ways, education of nearly a century ago was pretty good. Better than now. At least, for the average learner.
My father would have started his education in the 1920's. He was a farm kid, went to a one room school for his early years, and then to the town's high school. He wasn't a scholar but was of at least average intelligence and I always had a sense that he had a thorough grounding in some areas that I did not. Or maybe I just daydreamed my way through school, which I will freely admit is possible.
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It's basically all going back to the way it was over a century ago and American educational competitiveness will be at an end.
It's Not a Contest (http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/01/26/its-not-a-contest/)
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Hence, to claim that teacher salaries are significantly higher in Europe than the USA, as the previous poster (not you) implied, is incorrect. At best, you could surmise that in certain large, rich European nations, salaries are COMPETITIVE (not vastly superior) to those in the USA.
If this is all you're saying, that's fine, and an appropriate statement with the data.. That's just not what I responded to.
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I guess I'll share some personal information and comment on the original post.
On June 13th I was paid the equivalent of five paychecks. I immediately transferred $5000 (most of it) to my "high yield" savings (pays a whopping 1%).
Just made the August mortgage payment and credit card payment (paid in full each month - of course). These are my last "big" bills until my Sept. 1st paycheck arrives.
The $5000 I 'stached into savings on June 13th is still sitting there. Yeah, I'm pretty proud of myself...but it's not my first rodeo. I've been managing "summer pay" for 17 years now.
Now, a colleague and close friend (who makes about $10,000 more than me and saves nothing in her 403b) blew through all her $$$ within one month. She took an extended two week trip to Disney with the fam...had a gay old time posting "check ins" at expensive restaurants/bars EVERY DAY plus weekly movie reviews on Facebook. She's currently looking to 'consolidate' all her CC debt into a home equity loan, problem is, the home she's lived in for 15 years doesn't have enough equity for her to qualify. I don't know what the hell she's going to do. Oh wait, I do know...apply for and open another credit card (if she can get approved). That oughta tide her over 'til Sept. 1st.
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RE money management, teachers are like anyone else - some are good at managing money, some are not. When we (husband and I) first started teaching CEGEP, our salaries were by cheque - at the end of the school year, we got all the summer cheques at once. My DH would have spent it all, I made sure that the money came out gradually, so we still had rent/mortgage money at the end. When the Colleges switched to direct deposit, that ended.
Theoretically we worked 37.5 hours/week. In reality we worked 50-60 hours/week during the semester (i.e. until marks go in, not when the students are done), and 40-50 hours/week between semesters. We marked over our Christmas "vacations" - marks were due in January 2, exams ended December 23 or 23. Same thing in the spring, classes ended in April, exams ended in May, we were madly marking to get marks in by the deadline, then doing all the prep for the next fall. Exam time/marks due is for teachers like tax deadlines are for accountants, you are going all out.
We were teaching in the sciences, that meant making sure in May/June that all the fall labs were planned, lab materials ordered with delivery dates set, lab manuals in to the print shop, etc. - no way could that wait until we came back, even though we were back two weeks before classes started.
People with teachers in the family know the insane hours that they work, others only see the visible hours. Our DD at about age 8 said she was NEVER going to be a teacher - standing there after dinner looking at both parents doing schoolwork for another 3 hours. We had science people come in to teach one course, they thought it would be easy - they usually lasted one semester and we never saw them again.
Re salaries, here are the Canadian ones - some Provinces have more money than others, some have higher COLs, salaries reflect this. Remember right now the exchange rate is 0.91, so $50,000 C is about $45,000 US. Education years are AFTER high school.
From: http://resource.educationcanada.com/salaries.html/ (http://resource.educationcanada.com/salaries.html/)
Salaries
In six of the provinces and the two territories, basic salary scales and fringe benefits are established through negotiations between the teachers' association and representatives of the government. In some cases, supplementary negotiations take place at the school board level concerning additional fringe benefits and conditions of work. In British Columbia, Alberta, Manitoba and Ontario, all negotiations take place at the local or regional level.
Average Teacher Salaries by Province
4 Years of Education 6 Years of Education
Minimum Maximum Minimum Maximum
Alberta (2003-04
simple average) $43,653 $68,967 $48,779 $74,126
British Columbia $37,908 $56,743 $45,506 $70,684
Saskatchewan $38,700 $59,500 $43,570 $66,103
Manitoba $37,948 $58,737 $42,887 $65,310
Ontario $37,043 $62,625 $42,258 $73,472
Quebec $36,196 $58,633 $41,982 $63,527
New Brunswick $33,776 $52,231 $40,482 $62,292
Nova Scotia $35,906 $57,376 $44,168 $67,978
Prince Edward Island $30,341 $46,871 $38,480 $59,657
Newfoundland
& Labrador $34,838 $45,264 $45,280 $60,212
Yukon $56,717 $83,428 $62,074 $90,663
Alberta teacher salaries are based on agreements in place as of September 2004 – 44 settlements
Ontario teacher salaries are based on the average of elementary and secondary figures
Teachers' salaries increased an average of 2.9% per year between 1999 and 2003, slightly above the 2.7% CPI average annual growth over the same period. These increases reflect a number of retroactive collective agreements. Teachers' salaries had increased by less than 1% per year from 1994 to 1998.
Fringe Benefits:
Fringe benefits provided for in collective agreements may, but do not necessarily, include the following:
compassionate leave
supplementary medical insurance
cumulative sick leave
longterm disability insurance
maternity leave
retirement gratuities
sabbatical and study leave
life insurance
dental insurance
General Social Security
As citizens of Canada, teachers are required to participate in the social security programs of the federal government. These include Unemployment Insurance and the Canada/Quebec Pension Plan. The Unemployment Insurance plan provides benefits to persons who are unemployed through maternity or illness, as well as through general unavailability of suitable work. The Canada/Quebec Pension Plan provides a basic minimum retirement allowance and, in addition, some disability and survivors' benefits.
Teachers also participate in the provincial hospital and medical insurance plans. The costs of these plans are shared by the federal and provincial governments. The plans cover the basic expenses of hospital accommodation and physicians' services. Details of coverage vary from province to province.
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Hi RetiredAt63,
I think your data is a little outdated. As can be seen in a more recent agreement, teachers (Albertan) salary increased by quite a bit:
http://www.cbe.ab.ca/careers/pdfs/Collective_Agreement_ATA.pdf
Article 3, page 4
4Years of Education 6 Years of Education
Minimum Maximum Minimum Maximum (all $CAD)
Alberta (2003-04
simple average) $43,653 $68,967 $48,779 $74,126
Updated 2014 $57,896 $92,071 $65,171 $99,344
Please note these are base pays, starting September 1st, 2015, teachers with 6 years of education and 10 year exp will make $101k base (around 35 years old).
What do I personally think of this? They are paid too much, regardless of 4 or 6 year of education they should all be paid the same, ie, the 4 yr pay scale. From there I am ok with teachers making 101k base with 20 year exp.
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You are right, I should have checked the dates more carefully. Things on the internet live forever!
I obviously should have moved to Alberta when I graduated, instead of staying in Quebec - even in the early 1980s a Community College teacher there was making $10,000 more than an equivalent CEGEP teacher. Think of the wonderful pension I would have now, I would be beyond rich - or retired a lot sooner ;-)
The difference between 4 and 6 years could well be additional teacher training, or a higher level degree - which would be especially useful in the later years of high school. I have seen some pretty bad science teaching because the teacher was not that much more knowledgeable than a really bright senior high school student. For the same reason, ideally some one teaching Science in CEGEP has at least an M.Sc., because many of the students will be going into high level education (i.e. medicine for the Biology students) and need a good foundation. I have seen the results in CEGEP when the faculty were barely ahead of the students, not pretty. Please do not try to dumb down the teacher qualifications by penalizing those who want to be better prepared.
Also, to stay on topic for this financial forum, someone with 6 years of post HS education is starting their working career that much later, with all the penalties that causes, including reduced CPP benefits unless they work longer. Someone with 6 years post HS is making just over $7000 more for spending an extra 2 years in school, and retiring 2 years later for the same years of service. Not a lot of financial benefit for that person, so other reasons must be in there - like learning more to be a better teacher? I am not being unrealistic here, I did my last two degrees just for that, they did not net me much in the way of a salary increase (last one gained me nothing in terms of money, masses of other benefits).
Hi RetiredAt63,
I think your data is a little outdated. As can be seen in a more recent agreement, teachers (Albertan) salary increased by quite a bit:
http://www.cbe.ab.ca/careers/pdfs/Collective_Agreement_ATA.pdf
Article 3, page 4
4Years of Education 6 Years of Education
Minimum Maximum Minimum Maximum (all $CAD)
Alberta (2003-04
simple average) $43,653 $68,967 $48,779 $74,126
Updated 2014 $57,896 $92,071 $65,171 $99,344
Please note these are base pays, starting September 1st, 2015, teachers with 6 years of education and 10 year exp will make $101k base (around 35 years old).
What do I personally think of this? They are paid too much, regardless of 4 or 6 year of education they should all be paid the same, ie, the 4 yr pay scale. From there I am ok with teachers making 101k base with 20 year exp.
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Traditionally teaching has been a low-paying job -- but that low salary was balanced out by some very nice perks: A mom-friendly, predictable schedule; security; good benefits. Except for the schedule, those positives have been removed. The news this week is that we're finally being given a small raise (after a 6-year salary freeze, during which insurance costs soared), but at the same time we are losing our longevity pay -- some people are actually getting a salary cut. I'm getting a .3 raise -- again, after a 6-year salary freeze. Other state employees had a two-year salary freeze, after which they were "caught up" on the salary scale, and they are NOT losing their longevity pay.
Yes, the above poster who commented that some people just hate teachers -- possibly because of Mean Old Mrs. Crabtree back in elementary school -- is right. We can point out numbers and facts, yet some people will never believe them.
It's not really worth arguing with people about any of this anymore, because they come up with whatever half-baked statistics they want to justify whatever reformy nonsense and anti-teacher rhetoric they want to believe and no amount of contrary fact-based information combined with real-life experience will ever dissuade them from their ideology. Teachers have zero power, but they do represent a large portion of the remaining 11.3% of the American workforce that is Unionized, so we are going to be destroyed by the corporations that own the US government, so the USA can be more like the Third World countries that the corporations admire. I have just gotten to the point where I have accepted that public education as we know it is going to be completely destroyed along with a large chunk of the middle-class jobs that depend on it. I am getting out while the getting is good and I am going to sit back and laugh at all the "reformers" while I watch American education go up in flames. It's basically all going back to the way it was over a century ago and American educational competitiveness will be at an end.
+1000. Beware of any group that seeks to demonize people engaged in education.
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You must live in Beverly Hills or something because I've been teaching for a decade and I make nowhere near that much money from that job (combined with my SO's pay and my side hustles, we make significantly more, of course). I have heard of Baby Boomers in some places who have been teaching for 25 years making that kind of money, but nobody of the current generation will ever be that comfortable.
I don't live in Beverly Hills, but in a suburb of Boston (and not one of the super wealthy ones like Lexington or Newton) and the average teacher salary is 87K. Yeah, my jaw dropped too when I looked it up. Salaries seem to range from 55K up to 90K. MA has really strong teachers unions and very good schools, not just nationwide but worldwide, so I don't begrudge them their pay at all. They are also required to hold masters degrees. Besides, I know they have their work cut out for them teaching my kids. :P
http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/state_report/teachersalaries.aspx (http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/state_report/teachersalaries.aspx)
I think your right; good teachers get paid a pretty average salary compared to the national range, minus the large amount of schooling required of course.
In May 2012, the median annual wage for kindergarten teachers was $50,120. The median annual wage for elementary school teachers was $53,400 in May 2012. bls.gov (http://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/kindergarten-and-elementary-school-teachers.htm)
The BLS reports the median annual salary for high school teachers was $55,050 in 2012. bls.gov (http://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/high-school-teachers.htm)
For my anecdotal evidence; my sister-in-law is a teacher and she falls into the range above.
Average teacher pay in the USA is now up near $58,000 per year (though it varies widely by locality).
Not "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous" money, but a HELL of a lot more than most people make.
On their first day of work, I suspect the teacher's union implants a chip in their brain that recite the "teachers are underpaid!" mantra at least once a day.
Someday, I hope I meet someone who says, "I'm a teacher. I get paid a pretty damned good salary, far more than most workers. I also get a ton of time off. I really don't have much to complain about."
That kind of honesty would be refreshing.
Find me another profession where if you have a Master's Degree, you earn $50,000 after ten years of service. Go ahead, Mr. Smartypants. And then try to live on that $50,000 in New York City or San Francisco. Then tell me again how teachers are so overpaid. Sometimes I want to walk into an engineer's or doctor's office and just start screaming at them about how they are overpaid losers and how they should all be fired just so I can show them how it feels to be a teacher every single day.
OMG thank you! Nobody bats an eye about 25 year old code monkeys making 6 figures while cruising the internets all day, yet they get all pissy about women who work their asses off teaching their children wanting decent respect and compensation. Makes me so maaaaad!! I think its a sexist thing.
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You must live in Beverly Hills or something because I've been teaching for a decade and I make nowhere near that much money from that job (combined with my SO's pay and my side hustles, we make significantly more, of course). I have heard of Baby Boomers in some places who have been teaching for 25 years making that kind of money, but nobody of the current generation will ever be that comfortable.
I don't live in Beverly Hills, but in a suburb of Boston (and not one of the super wealthy ones like Lexington or Newton) and the average teacher salary is 87K. Yeah, my jaw dropped too when I looked it up. Salaries seem to range from 55K up to 90K. MA has really strong teachers unions and very good schools, not just nationwide but worldwide, so I don't begrudge them their pay at all. They are also required to hold masters degrees. Besides, I know they have their work cut out for them teaching my kids. :P
http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/state_report/teachersalaries.aspx (http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/state_report/teachersalaries.aspx)
I think your right; good teachers get paid a pretty average salary compared to the national range, minus the large amount of schooling required of course.
In May 2012, the median annual wage for kindergarten teachers was $50,120. The median annual wage for elementary school teachers was $53,400 in May 2012. bls.gov (http://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/kindergarten-and-elementary-school-teachers.htm)
The BLS reports the median annual salary for high school teachers was $55,050 in 2012. bls.gov (http://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/high-school-teachers.htm)
For my anecdotal evidence; my sister-in-law is a teacher and she falls into the range above.
Average teacher pay in the USA is now up near $58,000 per year (though it varies widely by locality).
Not "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous" money, but a HELL of a lot more than most people make.
On their first day of work, I suspect the teacher's union implants a chip in their brain that recite the "teachers are underpaid!" mantra at least once a day.
Someday, I hope I meet someone who says, "I'm a teacher. I get paid a pretty damned good salary, far more than most workers. I also get a ton of time off. I really don't have much to complain about."
That kind of honesty would be refreshing.
Find me another profession where if you have a Master's Degree, you earn $50,000 after ten years of service. Go ahead, Mr. Smartypants. And then try to live on that $50,000 in New York City or San Francisco. Then tell me again how teachers are so overpaid. Sometimes I want to walk into an engineer's or doctor's office and just start screaming at them about how they are overpaid losers and how they should all be fired just so I can show them how it feels to be a teacher every single day.
OMG thank you! Nobody bats an eye about 25 year old code monkeys making 6 figures while cruising the internets all day, yet they get all pissy about women who work their asses off teaching their children wanting decent respect and compensation. Makes me so maaaaad!! I think its a sexist thing.
no. MrsPotts you're a sexist thing.
you assume only men are coders, and only women are teachers.
i doubt that code monkey makes six figures.
i esp doubt they are able to cruise the internet all day.
and finally what does pointing to a totally different career field have to do with the pay of teachers.
sounds like if the code monkeys have it so easy, you should go join them.
all you're doing is building the argument for teachers, being whiny, and at this point id say neurotic as well.
i think the code monkeys are also better at parsing data and statistics, and building a real correlation between data.
who cares if you got you masters, that means in that field you mastered the material. that doesn't mean you should be paid the same as someone who mastered completely different material.
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OMG thank you! Nobody bats an eye about 25 year old code monkeys making 6 figures while cruising the internets all day, yet they get all pissy about women who work their asses off teaching their children wanting decent respect and compensation. Makes me so maaaaad!! I think its a sexist thing.
no. MrsPotts you're a sexist thing.
you assume only men are coders, and only women are teachers.
i doubt that code monkey makes six figures.
i esp doubt they are able to cruise the internet all day.
and finally what does pointing to a totally different career field have to do with the pay of teachers.
sounds like if the code monkeys have it so easy, you should go join them.
all you're doing is building the argument for teachers, being whiny, and at this point id say neurotic as well.
i think the code monkeys are also better at parsing data and statistics, and building a real correlation between data.
who cares if you got you masters, that means in that field you mastered the material. that doesn't mean you should be paid the same as someone who mastered completely different material.
I think MrsPotts just made a good case for homeschooling. I definitely don't want somebody with an attitude like this teaching my kids!
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It's not really worth arguing with people about any of this anymore, because they come up with whatever half-baked statistics they want to justify whatever reformy nonsense and anti-teacher rhetoric they want to believe and no amount of contrary fact-based information combined with real-life experience will ever dissuade them from their ideology. Teachers have zero power, but they do represent a large portion of the remaining 11.3% of the American workforce that is Unionized, so we are going to be destroyed by the corporations that own the US government, so the USA can be more like the Third World countries that the corporations admire. I have just gotten to the point where I have accepted that public education as we know it is going to be completely destroyed along with a large chunk of the middle-class jobs that depend on it. I am getting out while the getting is good and I am going to sit back and laugh at all the "reformers" while I watch American education go up in flames. It's basically all going back to the way it was over a century ago and American educational competitiveness will be at an end.
If you think my statistics and arguments are "half baked" PLEASE TAKE YOUR BEST SHOT AT REFUTING THEM. So far, all you have done is whine and make ad hominem attacks (I thank the other posters, however, who did make legitimate points).
I'd expect more from a teacher, and especially one who claims high intelligence.
Based on what I've seen, it's probably best for your students if you get out of teaching. A teacher who can't engage constructively in a logical debate probably isn't much help to the kids, unless you teach finger painting, music appreciation, modern dance, phys ed, or something similar.
My best HS teachers could not only logically debate, they encouraged their students to do the same.
Our schools are doing sooooo well, we wouldn't want to discuss any of that "reformy nonsense," would we?
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OMG thank you! Nobody bats an eye about 25 year old code monkeys making 6 figures while cruising the internets all day, yet they get all pissy about women who work their asses off teaching their children wanting decent respect and compensation. Makes me so maaaaad!! I think its a sexist thing.
no. MrsPotts you're a sexist thing.
you assume only men are coders, and only women are teachers.
i doubt that code monkey makes six figures.
i esp doubt they are able to cruise the internet all day.
and finally what does pointing to a totally different career field have to do with the pay of teachers.
sounds like if the code monkeys have it so easy, you should go join them.
all you're doing is building the argument for teachers, being whiny, and at this point id say neurotic as well.
i think the code monkeys are also better at parsing data and statistics, and building a real correlation between data.
who cares if you got you masters, that means in that field you mastered the material. that doesn't mean you should be paid the same as someone who mastered completely different material.
I think MrsPotts just made a good case for homeschooling. I definitely don't want somebody with an attitude like this teaching my kids!
actually, I am not a teacher, nor am I whiny. i am merely advocating for a very hardworking, disrespected profession which is PRIMARILY made up of women.
And while I am not a code monkey, either, I did spawn one, so I have some experience on the topic.
I do think, however, that you have very bad manners and should go to see the principal.
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actually, I am not a teacher, nor am I whiny. i am merely advocating for a very hardworking, disrespected profession which is PRIMARILY made up of women.
And while I am not a code monkey, either, I did spawn one, so I have some experience on the topic.
I do think, however, that you have very bad manners and should go to see the principal.
I'm not a code monkey either. I'm a software developer, and I happen to be a woman. It drives me nuts when people assume that women don't code, because it makes me invisible in a profession I love.
I agree that teachers shouldn't be disrespected. But please, please don't do the same thing to me... or to the amazing and talented men that I work with (having a child who codes is no excuse).
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I wasn't disrespecting anyone. I was sticking up for teachers. If very talented hardworking software developers resent teachers being amply compensated for very difficult work, then I fell sorry for them.
I think that part of the problem is that everyone thinks they know what teachers do, because most of us went to school. Actually, most of us know what students do. A significant part of the job is off camera, and a significant portion of the grunt work is done by women, who are, despite all of the very talented female software developers out there, generally undervalued in our society.
My own brat, female in fact, was offered 75k as her first job, right out of college, configuring prepackaged software for clients. She is bright, hardworking, and talented, but is she worth 25% more than her top of career high school calculus teacher? Right out of college? To learn on the job? To tinker with code???? Personally, while I was happy for her, I find that pay differential to be, frankly, fucking obscene, and I personally don't give a shit how many code monkeys highly talented and dedicated software developers get miffed because I do.
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I wasn't disrespecting anyone. I was sticking up for teachers. If very talented hardworking software developers resent teachers being amply compensated for very difficult work, then I fell sorry for them.
I think that part of the problem is that everyone thinks they know what teachers do, because most of us went to school. Actually, most of us know what students do. A significant part of the job is off camera, and a significant portion of the grunt work is done by women, who are, despite all of the very talented female software developers out there, generally undervalued in our society.
My own brat, female in fact, was offered 75k as her first job, right out of college, configuring prepackaged software for clients. She is bright, hardworking, and talented, but is she worth 25% more than her top of career high school calculus teacher? Right out of college? To learn on the job? To tinker with code???? Personally, while I was happy for her, I find that pay differential to be, frankly, fucking obscene, and I personally don't give a shit how many code monkeys highly talented and dedicated software developers get miffed because I do.
Supply and demand. Like it or not, there are a whole lot more people who are qualified and want to teach kids than be software engineers. Scarcity drives the price up.
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I wasn't disrespecting anyone. I was sticking up for teachers. If very talented hardworking software developers resent teachers being amply compensated for very difficult work, then I fell sorry for them.
I think that part of the problem is that everyone thinks they know what teachers do, because most of us went to school. Actually, most of us know what students do. A significant part of the job is off camera, and a significant portion of the grunt work is done by women, who are, despite all of the very talented female software developers out there, generally undervalued in our society.
My own brat, female in fact, was offered 75k as her first job, right out of college, configuring prepackaged software for clients. She is bright, hardworking, and talented, but is she worth 25% more than her top of career high school calculus teacher? Right out of college? To learn on the job? To tinker with code???? Personally, while I was happy for her, I find that pay differential to be, frankly, fucking obscene, and I personally don't give a shit how many code monkeys highly talented and dedicated software developers get miffed because I do.
Supply and demand. Like it or not, there are a whole lot more people who are qualified and want to teach kids than be software engineers. Scarcity drives the price up.
If you read earlier posts, there were people mocking teachers and claiming they are overpaid. If a few teachers can command a decent salary then by the rules of supply and demand why are people so resentful? I don't see dozens of posts bitching about how doctors or lawyers or god forbid engineers and software developers are overpaid. What the FUCK do you people have against teachers?
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I wasn't disrespecting anyone. I was sticking up for teachers. If very talented hardworking software developers resent teachers being amply compensated for very difficult work, then I fell sorry for them.
I think that part of the problem is that everyone thinks they know what teachers do, because most of us went to school. Actually, most of us know what students do. A significant part of the job is off camera, and a significant portion of the grunt work is done by women, who are, despite all of the very talented female software developers out there, generally undervalued in our society.
My own brat, female in fact, was offered 75k as her first job, right out of college, configuring prepackaged software for clients. She is bright, hardworking, and talented, but is she worth 25% more than her top of career high school calculus teacher? Right out of college? To learn on the job? To tinker with code???? Personally, while I was happy for her, I find that pay differential to be, frankly, fucking obscene, and I personally don't give a shit how many code monkeys highly talented and dedicated software developers get miffed because I do.
Supply and demand. Like it or not, there are a whole lot more people who are qualified and want to teach kids than be software engineers. Scarcity drives the price up.
If you read earlier posts, there were people mocking teachers and claiming they are overpaid. If a few teachers can command a decent salary then by the rules of supply and demand why are people so resentful? I don't see dozens of posts bitching about how doctors or lawyers or god forbid engineers and software developers are overpaid. What the FUCK do you people have against teachers?
I think a big part of the issue is that the teachers in the thread seem unable to make an argument that isn't based on emotion and bad logic, then disappear when anyone actually brings out numbers and asks questions. We're a pretty rational bunch here, and lose respect for people like that pretty quickly. And question whether they have the ability to teach children critical thinking skills.
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I read this thread with some interest. I see American teachers are not having it all that good. Manageable, but not a charmed life financially by any means.
Here in Switzerland it's still one of the most lucrative professions. The average primary school teacher makes ca 80,000$, secondary school 90-100,000$. I believe the latter has to have a masters degree. There are better schools and less good ones (lots of immigrants with poor German), but I've never heard of any violent ones. In any case kids are separated at young age into "fast" and "slow".
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Been following this thread for sometime... And I'm confused. Isn't it basic economics at play here? Decades back teaching was a lucrative position in US because of all the positives like flexible schedule, pension, holidays, security and decent pay. That attracted more and more people to the field and now it is overrun. As a result, the demand and the salaries have gone down along with benefits. I'm not saying good teachers are not affected by it or that teachers should not be paid more. Since there are teachers who are ready to teach for less, the market gives less.. If every teacher says they'll teach only for more salary, the market would pay more.
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Been following this thread for sometime... And I'm confused. Isn't it basic economics at play here? Decades back teaching was a lucrative position in US because of all the positives like flexible schedule, pension, holidays, security and decent pay. That attracted more and more people to the field and now it is overrun. As a result, the demand and the salaries have gone down along with benefits. I'm not saying good teachers are not affected by it or that teachers should not be paid more. Since there are teachers who are ready to teach for less, the market gives less.. If every teacher says they'll teach only for more salary, the market would pay more.
agreed, anyone making a case for otherwise is doing so based on emotions.
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It's a publicly funded position so true market forces do not apply. You underpay your teachers and then wonder why your education (primary and high school) is slowly spiralling downwards compared to other places.
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Hey, Mrs. Potts, you make some great points! Thanks for sticking up for teachers. The current climate and compensation structure in American public schools is turning many talented young professionals away from the vocation.
I don't have "summers" off, nor do I get "paid" for summer break. The Board of Education gives me a contract for X dollars (paid Sept - June) and X number of days...much like an attorney's or accountant's fee schedule for a service. So if a teacher makes $50,000/year for 190 days, that equates to about $263.00 a day. It's assumed a teacher works an 8 hour work day...
However, most teachers HAVE to work 60+ hours per week. Curriculum development, lesson planning, creating and scoring assessments, updating student performance data, mandatory professional collaboration, communicating with parents from 7am until 10pm b/c it's impossible during your work day, building and district level meetings, and ongoing training and professional development all need to be done BEYOND the 7 hour student contact time. It's a thankless, demanding and exhausting job.
I'd like to see someone who sits at a desk all day dealing with one problem/task or person at a time try it for one week, nay one DAY, nay, one HOUR. Then we'll engage in further discourse.
I've been asked to work 9 extra days this summer for NOTHING. Absolutely nothing. This may not seem like a big deal, but I doubt your lawyer or doctor or accountant would do the same...
Oh and every time a parent threatens home-schooling, I really start rolling on the ground laughing. FINE BY ME! Have as many kids as you'd like and teach them yourself.
That's like screaming at your garbage man, "I'm taking my trash to the dump myself from now on!"
You're still paying for it - he's still driving by your house every Thursday - but hey, you showed him. Bravo!
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Hey, Mrs. Potts, you make some great points! Thanks for sticking up for teachers. The current climate and compensation structure in American public schools is turning many talented young professionals away from the vocation.
She didn't actually make any points - she made a few vaguely sexist remarks, insulted some other posters, had a few emotional outbrsts, and demonstrated a lack of understanding basic economics. For some reason, everyone in here that's strongly supporting teachers is doing some version of that. It really causes you guys to lose credibility.
I don't have "summers" off, nor do I get "paid" for summer break. The Board of Education gives me a contract for X dollars (paid Sept - June) and X number of days...much like an attorney's or accountant's fee schedule for a service. So if a teacher makes $50,000/year for 190 days, that equates to about $263.00 a day. It's assumed a teacher works an 8 hour work day...
Look, funky accounting of hours just doesn't cut it when you're discussing this stuff with people who operate more on logic than emotion. I make a salary of about $37,000 and work year round. If my neighbour is a teacher and makes a salary of $37,000 but works 10 months a year instead of 12, that means they get two months off work. You're salaried, not hourly. Logically, for salaried positions it's irrelevant what the pay schedule is, besides that a weird one can create budgeting problems for people who have trouble thinking ahead.
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I wasn't disrespecting anyone. I was sticking up for teachers. If very talented hardworking software developers resent teachers being amply compensated for very difficult work, then I fell sorry for them.
I think that part of the problem is that everyone thinks they know what teachers do, because most of us went to school. Actually, most of us know what students do. A significant part of the job is off camera, and a significant portion of the grunt work is done by women, who are, despite all of the very talented female software developers out there, generally undervalued in our society.
My own brat, female in fact, was offered 75k as her first job, right out of college, configuring prepackaged software for clients. She is bright, hardworking, and talented, but is she worth 25% more than her top of career high school calculus teacher? Right out of college? To learn on the job? To tinker with code???? Personally, while I was happy for her, I find that pay differential to be, frankly, fucking obscene, and I personally don't give a shit how many code monkeys highly talented and dedicated software developers get miffed because I do.
Dear Potts:
your spawn is worth more than a teacher , because the market dictates thus
your opinion of someones worth and profession are irrelevant.
if the market paid people according to how 'hard' they worked, guess what?
the teachers, you are attempting to champion , still wouldn't come out on top.
it would probably be: coal miners, lumberjacks, cabbies and some small little old lady who, with her shaky hands, hand tailors yuppie dry cleaning.
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also potts you should probably google causation vs correlation, before you spout off about sexism again.
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Hey, Mrs. Potts, you make some great points! Thanks for sticking up for teachers. The current climate and compensation structure in American public schools is turning many talented young professionals away from the vocation.
She didn't actually make any points - she made a few vaguely sexist remarks, insulted some other posters, had a few emotional outbrsts, and demonstrated a lack of understanding basic economics. For some reason, everyone in here that's strongly supporting teachers is doing some version of that. It really causes you guys to lose credibility.
I don't have "summers" off, nor do I get "paid" for summer break. The Board of Education gives me a contract for X dollars (paid Sept - June) and X number of days...much like an attorney's or accountant's fee schedule for a service. So if a teacher makes $50,000/year for 190 days, that equates to about $263.00 a day. It's assumed a teacher works an 8 hour work day...
Look, funky accounting of hours just doesn't cut it when you're discussing this stuff with people who operate more on logic than emotion. I make a salary of about $37,000 and work year round. If my neighbour is a teacher and makes a salary of $37,000 but works 10 months a year instead of 12, that means they get two months off work. You're salaried, not hourly. Logically, for salaried positions it's irrelevant what the pay schedule is, besides that a weird one can create budgeting problems for people who have trouble thinking ahead.
Did anyone make a case that the payment schedule affects whether teachers are paid for 10 months or 12? I think you're arguing against a straw man here.
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Did anyone make a case that the payment schedule affects whether teachers are paid for 10 months or 12? I think you're arguing against a straw man here.
What I'm saying is that $50,000/year annual salary is a $50,000/year annual salary, regardless of how many months it's paid out over. Telling people "Oh, we don't get paid over the summer" is just another ridiculous tactic teachers are using to try to drum up sympathy. I have nothing against teachers, and both of my parents are in fact retired teachers, but as a group they're simply not going to get widespread support for their "struggles" until they can come up with arguments that make some sort of logical sense.
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Did anyone make a case that the payment schedule affects whether teachers are paid for 10 months or 12? I think you're arguing against a straw man here.
What I'm saying is that $50,000/year annual salary is a $50,000/year annual salary, regardless of how many months it's paid out over. Telling people "Oh, we don't get paid over the summer" is just another ridiculous tactic teachers are using to try to drum up sympathy. I have nothing against teachers, and both of my parents are in fact retired teachers, but as a group they're simply not going to get widespread support for their "struggles" until they can come up with arguments that make some sort of logical sense.
And I'm asking if anyone here actually made that argument. I didn't see it, but it's possible I missed it.
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Did anyone make a case that the payment schedule affects whether teachers are paid for 10 months or 12? I think you're arguing against a straw man here.
What I'm saying is that $50,000/year annual salary is a $50,000/year annual salary, regardless of how many months it's paid out over. Telling people "Oh, we don't get paid over the summer" is just another ridiculous tactic teachers are using to try to drum up sympathy. I have nothing against teachers, and both of my parents are in fact retired teachers, but as a group they're simply not going to get widespread support for their "struggles" until they can come up with arguments that make some sort of logical sense.
And I'm asking if anyone here actually made that argument. I didn't see it, but it's possible I missed it.
From MrsPete:
You do realize that summer vacation isn't a paid vacation, right? And if you count the number of actual holidays during the school year, it's pretty close to other professional's holidays. Many of the days kids are out of school are actually teacher work days.
From nirvines8:
So yes, I do get 2 months of UNpaid vacation (which I am very grateful for)
From fartface:
I don't have "summers" off, nor do I get "paid" for summer break.
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Did anyone make a case that the payment schedule affects whether teachers are paid for 10 months or 12? I think you're arguing against a straw man here.
What I'm saying is that $50,000/year annual salary is a $50,000/year annual salary, regardless of how many months it's paid out over. Telling people "Oh, we don't get paid over the summer" is just another ridiculous tactic teachers are using to try to drum up sympathy. I have nothing against teachers, and both of my parents are in fact retired teachers, but as a group they're simply not going to get widespread support for their "struggles" until they can come up with arguments that make some sort of logical sense.
And I'm asking if anyone here actually made that argument. I didn't see it, but it's possible I missed it.
From MrsPete:
You do realize that summer vacation isn't a paid vacation, right? And if you count the number of actual holidays during the school year, it's pretty close to other professional's holidays. Many of the days kids are out of school are actually teacher work days.
From nirvines8:
So yes, I do get 2 months of UNpaid vacation (which I am very grateful for)
From fartface:
I don't have "summers" off, nor do I get "paid" for summer break.
Right. Those all say they're paid for 10 months of work. None argue that the payment schedule means they work 12 months.
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Did anyone make a case that the payment schedule affects whether teachers are paid for 10 months or 12? I think you're arguing against a straw man here.
What I'm saying is that $50,000/year annual salary is a $50,000/year annual salary, regardless of how many months it's paid out over. Telling people "Oh, we don't get paid over the summer" is just another ridiculous tactic teachers are using to try to drum up sympathy. I have nothing against teachers, and both of my parents are in fact retired teachers, but as a group they're simply not going to get widespread support for their "struggles" until they can come up with arguments that make some sort of logical sense.
And I'm asking if anyone here actually made that argument. I didn't see it, but it's possible I missed it.
From MrsPete:
You do realize that summer vacation isn't a paid vacation, right? And if you count the number of actual holidays during the school year, it's pretty close to other professional's holidays. Many of the days kids are out of school are actually teacher work days.
From nirvines8:
So yes, I do get 2 months of UNpaid vacation (which I am very grateful for)
From fartface:
I don't have "summers" off, nor do I get "paid" for summer break.
Right. Those all say they're paid for 10 months of work. None argue that the payment schedule means they work 12 months.
Yes, paid an annual salary for 10 months of work. It's a salaried position. When you have an annual salary, you can't argue that you're unpaid for a portion of it - you have an annual salary. Whether you get paid over 10 or 12 months is irrelevant.
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Did anyone make a case that the payment schedule affects whether teachers are paid for 10 months or 12? I think you're arguing against a straw man here.
What I'm saying is that $50,000/year annual salary is a $50,000/year annual salary, regardless of how many months it's paid out over. Telling people "Oh, we don't get paid over the summer" is just another ridiculous tactic teachers are using to try to drum up sympathy. I have nothing against teachers, and both of my parents are in fact retired teachers, but as a group they're simply not going to get widespread support for their "struggles" until they can come up with arguments that make some sort of logical sense.
And I'm asking if anyone here actually made that argument. I didn't see it, but it's possible I missed it.
From MrsPete:
You do realize that summer vacation isn't a paid vacation, right? And if you count the number of actual holidays during the school year, it's pretty close to other professional's holidays. Many of the days kids are out of school are actually teacher work days.
From nirvines8:
So yes, I do get 2 months of UNpaid vacation (which I am very grateful for)
From fartface:
I don't have "summers" off, nor do I get "paid" for summer break.
Right. Those all say they're paid for 10 months of work. None argue that the payment schedule means they work 12 months.
Yes, paid an annual salary for 10 months of work. It's a salaried position. When you have an annual salary, you can't argue that you're unpaid for a portion of it - you have an annual salary. Whether you get paid over 10 or 12 months is irrelevant.
Salaried for 10 months. Contracts run for (for example) September through June. What's the difference? Well, a few, but mostly it's because you're trying to say that teachers are making an argument that they're not.
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Maybe the problem is your the use of salary. Salary doesn't necessarily mean annual - you can have a monthly or weekly salary too.
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Yes, paid an annual salary for 10 months of work. It's a salaried position. When you have an annual salary, you can't argue that you're unpaid for a portion of it - you have an annual salary. Whether you get paid over 10 or 12 months is irrelevant.
Salaried for 10 months. Contracts run for (for example) September through June. What's the difference? Well, a few, but mostly it's because you're trying to say that teachers are making an argument that they're not.
Questions:
can teachers collect unemployment during the months when school is not in session?
Can employers require teachers to attend classes or prepare during the summer months?
Do teachers have insurance coverage during summer months?
Someone mentioned 10 month contracts. Does that mean you're self-employed?
I'm not arguing one way or the other. I just want to know the answers.
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Yes, paid an annual salary for 10 months of work. It's a salaried position. When you have an annual salary, you can't argue that you're unpaid for a portion of it - you have an annual salary. Whether you get paid over 10 or 12 months is irrelevant.
Salaried for 10 months. Contracts run for (for example) September through June. What's the difference? Well, a few, but mostly it's because you're trying to say that teachers are making an argument that they're not.
Questions:
can teachers collect unemployment during the months when school is not in session?
Can employers require teachers to attend classes or prepare during the summer months?
Do teachers have insurance coverage during summer months?
Someone mentioned 10 month contracts. Does that mean you're self-employed?
I'm not arguing one way or the other. I just want to know the answers.
1) no
2) whatever's in the contract
3) yes
4) no
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Yes, paid an annual salary for 10 months of work. It's a salaried position. When you have an annual salary, you can't argue that you're unpaid for a portion of it - you have an annual salary. Whether you get paid over 10 or 12 months is irrelevant.
Salaried for 10 months. Contracts run for (for example) September through June. What's the difference? Well, a few, but mostly it's because you're trying to say that teachers are making an argument that they're not.
Questions:
can teachers collect unemployment during the months when school is not in session?
Can employers require teachers to attend classes or prepare during the summer months?
Do teachers have insurance coverage during summer months?
Someone mentioned 10 month contracts. Does that mean you're self-employed?
I'm not arguing one way or the other. I just want to know the answers.
1) no
2) whatever's in the contract
3) yes
4) no
Varies by state. Here the answers where I am:
1) yes (that's why the state mandated paying secondary ed teachers over 12 months, to disqualify all the teachers who were getting unemployment two months of the year - that puts their income too high to qualify). It's "not done" in the university system, but those who do file get it.
2) no, though it's a good idea to do it if they ask and you would like another contract. In the university system, this doesn't happen (they don't ask)
3) yes, because of the twelve month thing above. In the university system where I work, it's yes because they take out 7/5 of a normal premium from Jan- May when the contract ends.
4) Not self-employed (though I am that, too, separately). Employed on a contract by someone else.
As an example, I also work summers because I'm in a split role. That's a separate contract we've negotiated for June and July, and actually a different rate of pay.
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Yes, paid an annual salary for 10 months of work. It's a salaried position. When you have an annual salary, you can't argue that you're unpaid for a portion of it - you have an annual salary. Whether you get paid over 10 or 12 months is irrelevant.
The point is that MANY PEOPLE -- including one of our state representatives who votes on our salaries -- have the idea that teachers receive 12 monthly checks . . . but only work 10 months for that pay. MANY PEOPLE think it's a paid vacation. If you're thinking along the lines of, "Would you like your pizza cut into 10 slices or 12", you're going beyond what most people think -- the real issue is about the pervasive public perception that the taxpayers are paying teachers to do nothing, which is untrue.
My contract says I am to work for 10 months, and I am to be paid for 10 months. I do not have the option to divide that into 12 checks, though I believe that choice is available to teachers in other areas.
Questions:
can teachers collect unemployment during the months when school is not in session?
Can employers require teachers to attend classes or prepare during the summer months?
Do teachers have insurance coverage during summer months?
Someone mentioned 10 month contracts. Does that mean you're self-employed?
I'm not arguing one way or the other. I just want to know the answers.
No, because we complete our contracts in June, we are not "unemployed" during the summer. Rather, we've completed the work that was promised to us.
Likewise, a new teacher who's working on a one-year contract and who is not rehired the next year cannot collect unemployment -- he or she completed the work that was promised and was not laid off; however, a teacher who's on "Career Status" (commonly, though wrongly, called tenure) could collect unemployment (in the fall, not the summer) because that person's continuing contract states that employment was expected again the next fall. This is one of the reasons teachers in my state are fighting so hard to keep Career Status. Without it, we have no security for future employment.
Whether teachers can be required to attend meetings, etc. during the summer is a fine line. In reality, teachers could say no -- but then they'd have to do the same work during the next school year, so it's not in anyone's best interest. Any teacher who doesn't come back to school without having prepared over the summer is likely to have a bad year. I personally use the end-of-school workdays to prepare for the first week of school (which is always a killer). When I walk back into my classroom next week, I know I have brand-new bulletin boards and little piles of Xeroxed papers waiting for me -- I've done this enough times that I don't want to be the one scurrying around doing things at the last minute. Back to the subject . . . Some of those summer meetings are Continuing Ed type things -- you have to do them to renew your license, but you don't have to do everything THIS SUMMER. Typically teachers are given "comp time" for work done during the summer, but because that comp time can't be used while students are present, it's not particularly valuable.
In contrast, during the school year teachers do not have the option to refuse meetings, etc., even if they are after school hours. Except in emergency situations, we do get reasonable notice. Mandatory after-hours items include sponsoring clubs, chaperoning dances, selling football tickets, and supervising after-school detention. As mentioned above, we get "comp time" for these events, but we end up building up so much of it that we can't use it.
Yes, we have insurance during the summer months. The cost is deducted from our last paycheck of the year, which I've always thought was bad planning. It's already the last paycheck for a while . . . and triple deductions hurt. On the other hand, we do not contribute to our 401Ks or the state pension plan during the summer; rather, those deductions are divided equally between our 10 paychecks. And teachers who borrow through the State Employees' Credit Union to buy cars or houses have the option to schedule their payments so that they make 10 payments a year and skip the two summer months when no paycheck arrives.
No, I am employed by the county school board. When I was new, they granted me a string of one year contracts, now I have a continuing contract. I work for them. In this sense, teaching is unlike other jobs -- it's a bit like seasonal work. It does not compare apples-to-apples with other jobs.
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so lets say:
i have a one year teaching contract. and im not hired the next year. after the summer is complete and i would normally get a a new contract, can i then collect unemployment? i dont mean in june, I mean in September.
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so lets say:
i have a one year teaching contract. and im not hired the next year. after the summer is complete and i would normally get a a new contract, can i then collect unemployment? i dont mean in june, I mean in September.
From my reading, this varies by state. In some places you could file in June, in others you wouldn't be eligible for unemployment at all.
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im not saying i looked at every state. but from what im reading. you can either file in june(only if you have not been renewed, and you are not paid 12 checks) or have to wait for fall( if no contract and no checks). im not seeing anywhere that you dont get ANY AT ALL unemployment if you are a teacher who is not working. so that only supports that idea that summers are paid for work since everything i have read hinges on weather you get 12 checks or 10.
10 checks means, there are 2 months in which you could take on other employment.
12 checks means youre paid and can still take on other employment.
its called being a seasonal worker. similar to people who work for carnivals and H and R block.
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so lets say:
i have a one year teaching contract. and im not hired the next year. after the summer is complete and i would normally get a a new contract, can i then collect unemployment? i dont mean in june, I mean in September.
No. If you have a one year contract and you do not receive a new contract for the next year, you are not eligible for unemployment. Ever. Why? Because you were not laid off and did not lose your job; rather, you completed the work for which you were contracted, and the state owes you nothing else. You're on the same level as the guy whom you hired to put a new roof on your house. If he doesn't have another project, another job, another contract the week after your house, you don't owe him anything. You took him on essentially as a temporary employee.
As I said earlier, a teacher working on year-to-year contracts has no security. That's why we value Career Status (often called Tenure incorrectly) so highly. Without it, a good teacher can find herself out of a job because the principal found someone who can teach her subject AND coach basketball, or because he gave a failing grade to a school board member's nephew. A teacher who is on Career Status contracts has a reasonable assurance of a job next year -- that person can be laid off if enrollment drops, and that person can be fired for cause, but that person cannot be replaced by a younger, cheaper teacher or the principal's best friend "just because".
And, of course, like everything else, it's important to add the disclaimer "In my state".
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Also, to stay on topic for this financial forum, someone with 6 years of post HS education is starting their working career that much later, with all the penalties that causes, including reduced CPP benefits unless they work longer.
In BC it is so difficult for new teachers to get hired, that most get the extra while still TOC.. Or many have a combo of summer options and night school. Not sure asy but not a day lay either
L.
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I wasn't disrespecting anyone. I was sticking up for teachers. If very talented hardworking software developers resent teachers being amply compensated for very difficult work, then I fell sorry for them.
I think that part of the problem is that everyone thinks they know what teachers do, because most of us went to school. Actually, most of us know what students do. A significant part of the job is off camera, and a significant portion of the grunt work is done by women, who are, despite all of the very talented female software developers out there, generally undervalued in our society.
My own brat, female in fact, was offered 75k as her first job, right out of college, configuring prepackaged software for clients. She is bright, hardworking, and talented, but is she worth 25% more than her top of career high school calculus teacher? Right out of college? To learn on the job? To tinker with code???? Personally, while I was happy for her, I find that pay differential to be, frankly, fucking obscene, and I personally don't give a shit how many code monkeys highly talented and dedicated software developers get miffed because I do.
Supply and demand. Like it or not, there are a whole lot more people who are qualified and want to teach kids than be software engineers. Scarcity drives the price up.
If you read earlier posts, there were people mocking teachers and claiming they are overpaid. If a few teachers can command a decent salary then by the rules of supply and demand why are people so resentful? I don't see dozens of posts bitching about how doctors or lawyers or god forbid engineers and software developers are overpaid. What the FUCK do you people have against teachers?
Yes, engineers, lawyers, and doctors make more than teachers.
This should surprise on one. It's a HELL of a lot harder to become an engineer, lawyer, or doctor than a teacher. While one can become an engineer with only a baccalaureate degree (same as a teacher), an engineering curriculum is far more challenging, and far less people can successfully complete the degree.
In other words, there are far fewer people capable of being chemical engineers (or doctors or lawyers) than teachers (frankly, almost anyone who can get through college can become a teacher at some point, if he so chooses). So it's no surprise that engineers, scientists, lawyers, and doctors make more than a 3rd grade teacher.
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I wasn't disrespecting anyone. I was sticking up for teachers. If very talented hardworking software developers resent teachers being amply compensated for very difficult work, then I fell sorry for them.
I think that part of the problem is that everyone thinks they know what teachers do, because most of us went to school. Actually, most of us know what students do. A significant part of the job is off camera, and a significant portion of the grunt work is done by women, who are, despite all of the very talented female software developers out there, generally undervalued in our society.
My own brat, female in fact, was offered 75k as her first job, right out of college, configuring prepackaged software for clients. She is bright, hardworking, and talented, but is she worth 25% more than her top of career high school calculus teacher? Right out of college? To learn on the job? To tinker with code???? Personally, while I was happy for her, I find that pay differential to be, frankly, fucking obscene, and I personally don't give a shit how many code monkeys highly talented and dedicated software developers get miffed because I do.
Supply and demand. Like it or not, there are a whole lot more people who are qualified and want to teach kids than be software engineers. Scarcity drives the price up.
If you read earlier posts, there were people mocking teachers and claiming they are overpaid. If a few teachers can command a decent salary then by the rules of supply and demand why are people so resentful? I don't see dozens of posts bitching about how doctors or lawyers or god forbid engineers and software developers are overpaid. What the FUCK do you people have against teachers?
Yes, engineers, lawyers, and doctors make more than teachers.
This should surprise on one. It's a HELL of a lot harder to become an engineer, lawyer, or doctor than a teacher. While one can become an engineer with only a baccalaureate degree (same as a teacher), an engineering curriculum is far more challenging, and far less people can successfully complete the degree.
In other words, there are far fewer people capable of being chemical engineers (or doctors or lawyers) than teachers (frankly, almost anyone who can get through college can become a teacher at some point, if he so chooses). So it's no surprise that engineers, scientists, lawyers, and doctors make more than a 3rd grade teacher.
actually teachers, firemen, cops are making more than engg , lawyers and scientists in canada, at least in calgary.
you can see the link i posted a few posts ago regarding teachers' wages (100k+ by ~35) .
http://www.cbe.ab.ca/careers/pdfs/Collective_Agreement_ATA.pdf
in 2013, over 30% of the cops in calgary made over 100k, the top 10% cops income was around 200k. sure there's alot of "overtime pay" but the same can be said about lawyers and docs yet they do not receive the so called overtime pay.
and when you really look into the details, police overtime pay is a pretty good deal for the cops.
I have a huge problem with public SERVANTS making too much money. What is too much? adjusted for years of service and exp, i believe anything more than 110% of general population (age/exp bracket) income is too much. in fact i think 80% of general population median income might be a more reasonable number.
wtf you say? thats where the pension and benefits come in for the "total" compensation. sure, 70% of highest 5 years , 10% match, blah blah whatever i am ok with it as long as your salary is reasonable. but dont try to get away with both high salary and decent pension.
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I have a huge problem with public SERVANTS making too much money. What is too much? adjusted for years of service and exp, i believe anything more than 110% of general population (age/exp bracket) income is too much. in fact i think 80% of general population median income might be a more reasonable number.
So you think a lawyer, doctor, or engineer employed by the government should be limited to making 80% of $40k = $32 k?
US Median income is about $40k: http://www.bls.gov/news.release/wkyeng.nr0.htm
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good point beltim. but i have to say yes, yes they should make that.
you might argue it's crazy and no lawyer/doc/engg would ever do that. well, then we need to sell it to them.
we could make it so that the govt would pay these guys' tuition and living expenses, lol maybe even sponsor their siblings for something compeletely unrelated.
provide them with housing and perks. build an image of glory and honor, like how they currenly do it for the military.
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so instead of cash, you would provide other benefits. im sure the public servant tenements you suggest are way more awesome than anything a private dr making >100k could ever provide on their own.
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you ever notice the quality of person they get in the military with their benefits?
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good point beltim. but i have to say yes, yes they should make that.
you might argue it's crazy and no lawyer/doc/engg would ever do that. well, then we need to sell it to them.
we could make it so that the govt would pay these guys' tuition and living expenses, lol maybe even sponsor their siblings for something compeletely unrelated.
provide them with housing and perks. build an image of glory and honor, like how they currenly do it for the military.
Yeah, that's crazy. No "might" about it. If you try to pay people 10-20% of their fair market value, you won't get anyone who's any good - at least not for more than a year while they're looking for jobs that they can actually feed their family with. And you might not get anyone at all - how does your system work if no one even applies for the job?
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vivophoenix,
i would say currently Murica's military is the finest in the world. Not that it directly applies to what I am proposing, I am just saying it's possible to do it.
beltim,
They won't need to "feed" their families, it's part of the package. And no, they can't back out of the contract, unless they pay back a massive amount of money for their room and board, tution, and any sort of expense/cost they incurred during their employment with a ridiculous markup.
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beltim,
They won't need to "feed" their families, it's part of the package. And no, they can't back out of the contract, unless they pay back a massive amount of money for their room and board, tution, and any sort of expense/cost they incurred during their employment with a ridiculous markup.
My point is that you won't get anyone to sign that contract to start with.
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we could make it so that the govt would pay these guys' tuition and living expenses, lol maybe even sponsor their siblings for something compeletely unrelated.
provide them with housing and perks. build an image of glory and honor, like how they currenly do it for the military.
It's wildly economically inefficient to do that.
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we could make it so that the govt would pay these guys' tuition and living expenses, lol maybe even sponsor their siblings for something compeletely unrelated.
provide them with housing and perks. build an image of glory and honor, like how they currenly do it for the military.
It's wildly economically inefficient to do that.
i will admit i dont know a thing about public admin, but i am not convinced.... why would it be inefficient?
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vivophoenix,
i would say currently Murica's military is the finest in the world. Not that it directly applies to what I am proposing, I am just saying it's possible to do it.
beltim,
They won't need to "feed" their families, it's part of the package. And no, they can't back out of the contract, unless they pay back a massive amount of money for their room and board, tution, and any sort of expense/cost they incurred during their employment with a ridiculous markup.
based on what?
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also if drs/lawyers cared more about the image of glory honor, and housing and tuition; why not just IDk go into the military?
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we could make it so that the govt would pay these guys' tuition and living expenses, lol maybe even sponsor their siblings for something compeletely unrelated.
provide them with housing and perks. build an image of glory and honor, like how they currenly do it for the military.
It's wildly economically inefficient to do that.
i will admit i dont know a thing about public admin, but i am not convinced.... why would it be inefficient?
Because people value things differently. Some people like to spend more of their money on housing, some on food, some on cars. Some people even like to save up for early retirement! Now, if you had to provide a certain level of housing, food, and transportation, you'd probably aim at some average. That means that in each category you're paying more than the people value the benefit. In other words, unless every one of those employees valued each of the benefits at market value or higher, it would be more efficient to give them cash and let them decide how to use it.
Put another way, if the government providing these things were efficient, why wouldn't private companies do it? There are tons of companies big enough to provide economies of scale, but companies don't run dormitories because there's no benefit to it.
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i see what you mean, yes you are right, it'd be inefficient. The key then, is to make people value the same things..... which goes back to the brand/image building.
the holy grail of all dictators....
That being said, is my model really any less efficient with the current one? You might have noticed what I proposed shared some traits with the failed Soviet system, what makes me think my proposal would work?
Recent rise of "unpaid internship", the high degree of specialization in our society, and advancement in tech.
Find desperate and willing candidates. Give them hope and food and an Ideal. Make them highly specialized in a few tasks ie, a GI doc would know next to nothing about joints and such.
Using med as an example: After diagnosis these "specialist" would upload their individual findings to a machine. Using something similar to google search and keywords the machine would give a list of possible final diagnosis. How do we know which is right now that we dont have a "real" physician? Stats. Yup. Sounds crude and heartless, but one might be surprised how accurate it could be....
Now our recruits are ready to provide more than they cost by continuing cranking out services, we had just built an assembly line where parts can be replaced with almost limitless supplies, think of all the unemployed people, 200 million in China alone.
back to the original topic or are you going to continue ripping holes in my theory :)
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if its so easy why not link webmd with an online prescription service and cut out the middle man altogether?
but the ral question is, who starts using these services first?
would it be the poor?
those without insurance, or the means to afford a 'real' dr"?
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That being said, is my model really any less efficient with the current one?
Yes.
Find desperate and willing candidates. Give them hope and food and an Ideal. Make them highly specialized in a few tasks ie, a GI doc would know next to nothing about joints and such.
…
Now our recruits are ready to provide more than they cost by continuing cranking out services, we had just built an assembly line where parts can be replaced with almost limitless supplies, think of all the unemployed people, 200 million in China alone.
As a jobs program, this is fine. I would have been in support of this sort of program during the great recession. But as a replacement of highly educated, highly qualified people who make high-level decisions in the government? No, that would be terrible.
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The more benefits you offer, the more people you have to pay to help manage those benefits.
So, you are paying someone to help give someone else benefits.
Just because they get paid less doesn't mean the government is spending less money on them.
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On the other side of this issue - if someone tells you that they will always pay for your food but you have to eat what they give you or they will simply pay you more for you to get it yourself and make your own choices....
Why would anyone pick the side with less freedom?
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Believe it or not Diagnosic statistics is actually a subject taught in med school, physicians rely on it quite often to come up with diagnosis.
Why would anyone pick the side with less freedom?
for security of course....as we all did since 2001.
i know i can not convince anyone, but i would be very interested in making some calculations (for efficiency and benefits cost) on my own or if someone can point me to a paper or something that would be great.
The goal is not trying to produce highly qualified and/or highly educated professionals, I am looking for the point where the public sector can be self-sustaining (produce more than cost) and still provide "good enough" services.
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The goal is not trying to produce highly qualified and/or highly educated professionals, I am looking for the point where the public sector can be self-sustaining (produce more than cost) and still provide "good enough" services.
Why in the world would you want our teachers and doctors to become "good enough"? That means millions of kids will get a horrible education (because on the average the school system would be fine) and millions of people would receive subpar healthcare.
We haven't even touched when public lawyers get paid less. They already get trampled by private sector. Lets make double-sure all people that can't afford a defense will have the most shitty representation possible!
And I have a distinct feeling that the majority of the people on this website do not like trading freedom for a small amount of security.
Stick your head in the freezer. Stick your feet in the oven. On the average, your body temp would be "good enough".
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good point about lawyers Elyse. Are the public defenders today really bad compared to the prosecuting side?
By good enough I mean no worse than services standards that an average citizen (student / patient / etc) can reasonably utilise today. Our education system for an avg kid today is well... i won't say horrible, but i imagine many people would say it's not that great.
The students that graduate from my proposed education system (teaching methods and specialized subjects) should be a good match to my proposed public work system; it's like a self-sustaining factory producing goods that can replace its own parts using those produced goods.
I understand my proposals require some pretty large fundamental changes to our current North American society, however I really believe that my proposed system, which is supported by a large public sector ( > 33% work force?) can provide fast, reliable, and adequate services to most people in a economical way.
No, I don't have the numbers to back any of these up .... the closest (public employees) we've got is prob the nordic model or the failed soviet attemps.
As for freedom vs security, well...
http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21582525-war-terror-haunts-america-still-it-should-recover-some-its-most-cherished
http://www.timesunion.com/opinion/article/Editorial-Freedom-versus-security-5415179.php
I welcome further discussions but perhaps we should start our own thread.