Unethical ways to save money

[nessness]

I've seen a few gas stations that offer a discount if you pay in cash. I'm surprised that more businesses have not thought to use this model. They could make more money while also charging the customer less.

Typically the contract the merchant signs with the CC company requires that the posted price be the credit card price. Merchants can provide a cash discount, but cannot charge a credit card surcharge.

With gas stations, this is pretty straight forward. On their sign, they can say "Cash payment - 10 cents off per gal" or whatever, so the cash price is just as salient as people are driving by as the "posted" price. With other kinds of merchants, it's more difficult. If you're a convenience store, the customer has already decided to pay the $4 posted price for their bag of chips when they bring it to the register, so you might slightly incentivize cash payments, but then you'd also be giving up some additional profit on people who were going to pay cash anyways without the discount, so it's a finer line to walk.  Plus, cash management isn't free, even if it is cheaper than CC fees most of the time.

I went to store recently that had a sign saying they charged a 25 cent fee on all transactions, but also offered a 25 cent discount for cash purchases. So basically they charged a fee for CC purchases but didn't call it that. I don't know if that would fly though if they got caught.

[ketchup]

Pretty sure that people on this forum are the reason why L.L. Bean no longer guarantees their products for life. Just saying.

true dat!   More than a few things don't have a lifetime warranty any more.....and companies have learned to build in planned failure.....TVs, washers, fridges - they tell you that 7 years is the life now....WTF....I admit, my washer/dryer set are probably in their death throes, but they're 20 years old....new washers - they say will last 7 years.....what kind of a quality message is that?  It's not like they're 3 times cheaper.....

I feel like cell phones are made with some sort of 2 yr self destruct function to force you to upgrade.

It's called a battery.  Replace it and keep the phone another two years.

[dragoncar]

I've seen a few gas stations that offer a discount if you pay in cash. I'm surprised that more businesses have not thought to use this model. They could make more money while also charging the customer less.

Typically the contract the merchant signs with the CC company requires that the posted price be the credit card price. Merchants can provide a cash discount, but cannot charge a credit card surcharge.

With gas stations, this is pretty straight forward. On their sign, they can say "Cash payment - 10 cents off per gal" or whatever, so the cash price is just as salient as people are driving by as the "posted" price. With other kinds of merchants, it's more difficult. If you're a convenience store, the customer has already decided to pay the $4 posted price for their bag of chips when they bring it to the register, so you might slightly incentivize cash payments, but then you'd also be giving up some additional profit on people who were going to pay cash anyways without the discount, so it's a finer line to walk.  Plus, cash management isn't free, even if it is cheaper than CC fees most of the time.

I went to store recently that had a sign saying they charged a 25 cent fee on all transactions, but also offered a 25 cent discount for cash purchases. So basically they charged a fee for CC purchases but didn't call it that. I don't know if that would fly though if they got caught.

For a long time minimum CC charges were against the merchant terms, but plenty of small shops still did it and “got away with it”. 

[DadJokes]

I've seen a few gas stations that offer a discount if you pay in cash. I'm surprised that more businesses have not thought to use this model. They could make more money while also charging the customer less.

Typically the contract the merchant signs with the CC company requires that the posted price be the credit card price. Merchants can provide a cash discount, but cannot charge a credit card surcharge.

With gas stations, this is pretty straight forward. On their sign, they can say "Cash payment - 10 cents off per gal" or whatever, so the cash price is just as salient as people are driving by as the "posted" price. With other kinds of merchants, it's more difficult. If you're a convenience store, the customer has already decided to pay the $4 posted price for their bag of chips when they bring it to the register, so you might slightly incentivize cash payments, but then you'd also be giving up some additional profit on people who were going to pay cash anyways without the discount, so it's a finer line to walk.  Plus, cash management isn't free, even if it is cheaper than CC fees most of the time.

I went to store recently that had a sign saying they charged a 25 cent fee on all transactions, but also offered a 25 cent discount for cash purchases. So basically they charged a fee for CC purchases but didn't call it that. I don't know if that would fly though if they got caught.

For a long time minimum CC charges were against the merchant terms, but plenty of small shops still did it and “got away with it”.

Yep, convenience store I worked at had a $3 minimum purchase amount.

[By the River]

Years ago, an employee of a company I worked at was arrested for identity theft (by using info that she had access to through work).  I had to look at her work email to find any evidence.  She was very fond of ordering online but many of her packages were "stolen".   She did this for contact lens, clothes, electronics, and other things.  She also sold Avon and/or Mary Kay.   She had an email from one that they were kicking her out of the MLM because too many of her items had not been received and had to replaced.  She also received emails from multiple card companies saying that her payments were past due.

(This was all on her company email! With the big warning when you log in that all information remains property of the company.)

[Dicey]

I’m not sure you are reading it right since you mention ripping off amazon and I don’t see where that happened

Agree. It looks like this might've been in response to the statement that some retailers will refund you for an item but let you keep it, although that seemed to be a "if this randomly happens to you, it might be part of this thread", not a "buy things and then see if you can keep them but still get a refund".

The poster did not come out and say it, but the inference I got was that they ordered baby formula from Amazon and then returned it with the expectation being that they would get a refund and still get to keep the product.   This is different that ordering something, realizing it was wrong and then being stuck with it because Amazon doesn't want it returned and you don't want to throw out a perfectly good but wrong item.
I would expect that a company the size and success of Amazon has a pretty extensive data warehouse and analytics functionality that would flag customers that order the same thing multiple times and then try to return it for a refund.  I would expect that those would be the customers they would have ship things back even if not cost effective, to deter the practice.   I would never underestimate a company's ability to churn data and derive patterns.

I guess you can infer what you will, but to my reading the phrase "This turned out to be a consistent response from Amazon." implies that the poster did not originally return the item with the intention of obtaining the item for free.  Instead, it seems that they wanted to return something they didn't want and various times have been told not to send it back.  Sure, they are suggesting that someone nefarious could take advantage of that (that's the point of this thread), but I'll give the poster the benefit of the doubt that wasn't their intent.

So timely! Yesterday, this was in my Amazon package. I'm sure they're not going to want it back, but what the hell am I to do with it? My dungeon is already perfect. BTW, it' sold as a set for 16.99, but I received a single handle. Sheesh.

[dragoncar]

I’m not sure you are reading it right since you mention ripping off amazon and I don’t see where that happened

Agree. It looks like this might've been in response to the statement that some retailers will refund you for an item but let you keep it, although that seemed to be a "if this randomly happens to you, it might be part of this thread", not a "buy things and then see if you can keep them but still get a refund".

The poster did not come out and say it, but the inference I got was that they ordered baby formula from Amazon and then returned it with the expectation being that they would get a refund and still get to keep the product.   This is different that ordering something, realizing it was wrong and then being stuck with it because Amazon doesn't want it returned and you don't want to throw out a perfectly good but wrong item.
I would expect that a company the size and success of Amazon has a pretty extensive data warehouse and analytics functionality that would flag customers that order the same thing multiple times and then try to return it for a refund.  I would expect that those would be the customers they would have ship things back even if not cost effective, to deter the practice.   I would never underestimate a company's ability to churn data and derive patterns.

I guess you can infer what you will, but to my reading the phrase "This turned out to be a consistent response from Amazon." implies that the poster did not originally return the item with the intention of obtaining the item for free.  Instead, it seems that they wanted to return something they didn't want and various times have been told not to send it back.  Sure, they are suggesting that someone nefarious could take advantage of that (that's the point of this thread), but I'll give the poster the benefit of the doubt that wasn't their intent.

So timely! Yesterday, this was in my Amazon package. I'm sure they're not going to want it back, but what the hell am I to do with it? My dungeon is already perfect. BTW, it' sold as a set for 16.99, but I received a single handle. Sheesh.

Lol, that's why I have the trimmer string... I didn't order it they just accidentally put it in there and didn't want it back.  I'm sure one day I can pass it on to someone who needs/wants it.

It would be kind of hilarious to list our free items on Amazon Marketplace.

[WhiteTrashCash]

Pretty sure that people on this forum are the reason why L.L. Bean no longer guarantees their products for life. Just saying.

true dat!   More than a few things don't have a lifetime warranty any more.....and companies have learned to build in planned failure.....TVs, washers, fridges - they tell you that 7 years is the life now....WTF....I admit, my washer/dryer set are probably in their death throes, but they're 20 years old....new washers - they say will last 7 years.....what kind of a quality message is that?  It's not like they're 3 times cheaper.....

I feel like cell phones are made with some sort of 2 yr self destruct function to force you to upgrade.

It's called a battery.  Replace it and keep the phone another two years.

Yeah, I know a lot of phones are designed to prevent people from replacing the battery, but it's not really that hard to do even in that case. Check iFixit.com for instructions and purchase the parts for cheap on eBay or Amazon. I've repaired lots of the stuff I own that way and now my iPod Classic is 12 years old, my iPad is 6 years old, my smartphone is 5 years old and they are all still going strong.

[Naiellio]

Any ideas/suggestions are more than welcome!!!
I will be going to university next year away from home and the maintenance loan just isn’t enough as I will only be able to receive around $2300 due to my parents being in the higher salary earning and unfortunately they’re not willing to help me out so i’m going to have to save up a lot over the next year as that will not even cover my rent. I have a job it’s 16h a week paying $7 per hour and I can’t get more hours/another job as I don’t have the time due to always being busy but this just covers my bus fare/food/clothes so I have around $20 left at the end of the month and I know that’s no where near enough the amount I need for university. So i’m wanting to know how you can save/earn money!! Thank you!!!

[Dicey]

Any ideas/suggestions are more than welcome!!!
I will be going to university next year away from home and the maintenance loan just isn’t enough as I will only be able to receive around $2300 due to my parents being in the higher salary earning and unfortunately they’re not willing to help me out so i’m going to have to save up a lot over the next year as that will not even cover my rent. I have a job it’s 16h a week paying $7 per hour and I can’t get more hours/another job as I don’t have the time due to always being busy but this just covers my bus fare/food/clothes so I have around $20 left at the end of the month and I know that’s no where near enough the amount I need for university. So i’m wanting to know how you can save/earn money!! Thank you!!!

@Naiellio, welcome to the MMM Forum. This place is chock full of helpful people and excellent advice. However, this thread is mostly tongue in cheek, and not intended to provide actual advice. You might want to start by reading the MMM blog or perhaps something like OhMyDollar.com. There are probably other blogs that are more student specific. If you really want to hang out with us, that's cool, but you might want to start your own thread. Best of luck to you!

[Roadrunner53]

Any ideas/suggestions are more than welcome!!!
I will be going to university next year away from home and the maintenance loan just isn’t enough as I will only be able to receive around $2300 due to my parents being in the higher salary earning and unfortunately they’re not willing to help me out so i’m going to have to save up a lot over the next year as that will not even cover my rent. I have a job it’s 16h a week paying $7 per hour and I can’t get more hours/another job as I don’t have the time due to always being busy but this just covers my bus fare/food/clothes so I have around $20 left at the end of the month and I know that’s no where near enough the amount I need for university. So i’m wanting to know how you can save/earn money!! Thank you!!!

First off, I would check into other living arrangements than paying $2300 a month. Can you live at home and drive to school? Can you find a room in someone's house? Can you live in an apartment with 3 or 4 other people? That is always a can of worms due to not getting along with your mates or one not paying or someone taking advantage of the others. That would be the last option I would pick.

You have one year to plan this and that time will go fast. Your $7 an hour job at 16 hours a week is not going to cut it. You will need to put your nose to the grindstone and work more hours. Save every penny you can. Start selling your stuff on Craigslist or tag sales. See if your family will give you things that are no longer used in the house for a yard sale. Look on Craigslist for short term gigs to work.

As far a clothes go, you only need a minimum of clothes unless you are going to a private college that requires a certain dress code.

Start collecting recipes that are bean and lentil oriented. They are low in cost, nutritious and you can buy a lot of cans or bags to make quick meals. Eggs are cheap and nutritious too. Start going to the grocery store and price things out. Take your time. Use the store flyer to 'see' the sales. Pretend you are buying things to check out the costs. Eating out is not an option for you. To cut costs you must prepare foods at home. Sardines are cheap, full of protein, filling and can be mashed up like tuna with mayo. Full of omega 3's and other essential vitamins and minerals. Peanut butter is filling too. Canned salmon, canned tuna. Rice stretches meals as well as pasta. Potatoes are cheap and filling as well. 

See if you can buy used books for the classes you are taking. You will save tons of money by doing so.

With the holidays coming, see if you can get some things you will need for college such as clothes, Instant Pot. If your family doesn't have one, look into it. It could be a good and versatile appliance for you to cook food. Go to the store and check them out. I have an 8 quart and that would probably be too big for you. Consider a 4-6 quart. Read up on it and understand how to use it.

Just remember, from this point on, every dollar you get you must save it, not squander it. Make a game of it to see how far you can stretch each dollar. Learn your prices, spend wisely. Pick up odd jobs. There will be times your friends are going to movies or parties or eating out and you will feel deprived. Push those feeling away and know your future depends on it. Good luck to you.

[kanga1622]

I've seen a few gas stations that offer a discount if you pay in cash. I'm surprised that more businesses have not thought to use this model. They could make more money while also charging the customer less.

Typically the contract the merchant signs with the CC company requires that the posted price be the credit card price. Merchants can provide a cash discount, but cannot charge a credit card surcharge.

With gas stations, this is pretty straight forward. On their sign, they can say "Cash payment - 10 cents off per gal" or whatever, so the cash price is just as salient as people are driving by as the "posted" price. With other kinds of merchants, it's more difficult. If you're a convenience store, the customer has already decided to pay the $4 posted price for their bag of chips when they bring it to the register, so you might slightly incentivize cash payments, but then you'd also be giving up some additional profit on people who were going to pay cash anyways without the discount, so it's a finer line to walk.  Plus, cash management isn't free, even if it is cheaper than CC fees most of the time.

I went to store recently that had a sign saying they charged a 25 cent fee on all transactions, but also offered a 25 cent discount for cash purchases. So basically they charged a fee for CC purchases but didn't call it that. I don't know if that would fly though if they got caught.

For a long time minimum CC charges were against the merchant terms, but plenty of small shops still did it and “got away with it”.

Yep, convenience store I worked at had a $3 minimum purchase amount.

The vending machines at work now have a little label saying the prices posted are cash prices and if you use credit/debit/GooglePay/ApplePay there is a $.10 surcharge per transaction. I would think that violates CC agreements and it makes me know I won't be purchasing from the machines.

[Roadrunner53]

Any ideas/suggestions are more than welcome!!!
I will be going to university next year away from home and the maintenance loan just isn’t enough as I will only be able to receive around $2300 due to my parents being in the higher salary earning and unfortunately they’re not willing to help me out so i’m going to have to save up a lot over the next year as that will not even cover my rent. I have a job it’s 16h a week paying $7 per hour and I can’t get more hours/another job as I don’t have the time due to always being busy but this just covers my bus fare/food/clothes so I have around $20 left at the end of the month and I know that’s no where near enough the amount I need for university. So i’m wanting to know how you can save/earn money!! Thank you!!!

Also, consider buying used or new clothes from ebay. They have all the name brands and some have never been worn and gotten at a good price if you are a good shopper. If they are used clothes, just plan on washing them as you do your regular clothing.

Another thing, when you get to college, attend all the events that offer free food for attending. A bit unethical if you are not interested in the event but not illegal! Go for the free food and stay as long as you have to then sneak out.

[SwordGuy]

Another thing, when you get to college, attend all the events that offer free food for attending. A bit unethical if you are not interested in the event but not illegal! Go for the free food and stay as long as you have to then sneak out.

How will you know you don't like it if you don't try it out first?    And who says *all* education has to be "interesting" in order to be useful?

[RWTL]

Another thing, when you get to college, attend all the events that offer free food for attending. A bit unethical if you are not interested in the event but not illegal! Go for the free food and stay as long as you have to then sneak out.

I don't think this is unethical.  They want people to come on the change that some will be interested in the event. 

[TomTX]

Akin to returns and theft being factored into prices and profitability, so are CC fees. Every time us mustachians gleefully get our 1.3% rewards or whatever from the CC, the merchant has paid somewhere on the order of 3-3.5% to the CC company. Therefore prices need to be higher to accommodate this, but at the same time the alternative of not accepting CCs which would result in lower prices, would likely be more than adversarially offset by fewer sales.

So, the prices need to be a certain percentage higher depending on the ratio of people using high reward cards, vs say debit. If no one used these cards, prices could be a bit lower. Because that's not the case though, your most logical course of action is to use a rewards card, exacerbating the problem. Real world example of the Prisoner's dilemma. Best course of action is to help yourself out a bit, while screwing over (marginally) both your fellow consumers (higher prices), and the company (less competitive). 

People always complain about merchant fees on credit cards "driving up prices" - yet completely overlook the costs of handling cash. Cash makes every transaction take longer, reducing throughput/sales, unless you add more cashier hours (which costs money). You need to spend time (pay someone for) doing register counts at the beginning and end of each shift. You need to spend money on a safe. You need to spend time (pay someone for) bank runs to drop off cash and get change, or you need to pay for an armored car service to do it for you. You often have to pay the bank to handle frequent/large cash deposits to a commercial account. You are more likely to need security cameras/risk robbery. Et cetera.

[DadJokes]

Another thing, when you get to college, attend all the events that offer free food for attending. A bit unethical if you are not interested in the event but not illegal! Go for the free food and stay as long as you have to then sneak out.

I got so much free pizza that I can't even stand Domino's anymore.

[flipboard]

People always complain about merchant fees on credit cards "driving up prices" - yet completely overlook the costs of handling cash. Cash makes every transaction take longer, reducing throughput/sales, unless you add more cashier hours (which costs money). You need to spend time (pay someone for) doing register counts at the beginning and end of each shift. You need to spend money on a safe. You need to spend time (pay someone for) bank runs to drop off cash and get change, or you need to pay for an armored car service to do it for you. You often have to pay the bank to handle frequent/large cash deposits to a commercial account. You are more likely to need security cameras/risk robbery. Et cetera.

Cash is actually faster for many transactions, that myth of cash being slower has been disproven in a study by the german central bank: https://www.bundesbank.de/resource/blob/776464/7bcafc28a7be62b503fb4c39440f92db/mL/kosten-der-bargeldzahlung-im-einzelhandel-data.pdf

Caveat: speed actually depends on the size of payment, but for small day-to-day payments its generally faster. (And people will tend to switch to card for the bigger payments anyway.) And faster is good for both customer and retailer.

The other aspects are easily counterbalanced by the large fee for credit cards.

[dragoncar]

Akin to returns and theft being factored into prices and profitability, so are CC fees. Every time us mustachians gleefully get our 1.3% rewards or whatever from the CC, the merchant has paid somewhere on the order of 3-3.5% to the CC company. Therefore prices need to be higher to accommodate this, but at the same time the alternative of not accepting CCs which would result in lower prices, would likely be more than adversarially offset by fewer sales.

So, the prices need to be a certain percentage higher depending on the ratio of people using high reward cards, vs say debit. If no one used these cards, prices could be a bit lower. Because that's not the case though, your most logical course of action is to use a rewards card, exacerbating the problem. Real world example of the Prisoner's dilemma. Best course of action is to help yourself out a bit, while screwing over (marginally) both your fellow consumers (higher prices), and the company (less competitive). 

People always complain about merchant fees on credit cards "driving up prices" - yet completely overlook the costs of handling cash. Cash makes every transaction take longer, reducing throughput/sales, unless you add more cashier hours (which costs money). You need to spend time (pay someone for) doing register counts at the beginning and end of each shift. You need to spend money on a safe. You need to spend time (pay someone for) bank runs to drop off cash and get change, or you need to pay for an armored car service to do it for you. You often have to pay the bank to handle frequent/large cash deposits to a commercial account. You are more likely to need security cameras/risk robbery. Et cetera.

I see so many small businesses now that only take cards.  Not sure if they are just catering to their clientele or legitimately analyzed the downsides of cash. 

[Catbert]

Akin to returns and theft being factored into prices and profitability, so are CC fees. Every time us mustachians gleefully get our 1.3% rewards or whatever from the CC, the merchant has paid somewhere on the order of 3-3.5% to the CC company. Therefore prices need to be higher to accommodate this, but at the same time the alternative of not accepting CCs which would result in lower prices, would likely be more than adversarially offset by fewer sales.

So, the prices need to be a certain percentage higher depending on the ratio of people using high reward cards, vs say debit. If no one used these cards, prices could be a bit lower. Because that's not the case though, your most logical course of action is to use a rewards card, exacerbating the problem. Real world example of the Prisoner's dilemma. Best course of action is to help yourself out a bit, while screwing over (marginally) both your fellow consumers (higher prices), and the company (less competitive). 

People always complain about merchant fees on credit cards "driving up prices" - yet completely overlook the costs of handling cash. Cash makes every transaction take longer, reducing throughput/sales, unless you add more cashier hours (which costs money). You need to spend time (pay someone for) doing register counts at the beginning and end of each shift. You need to spend money on a safe. You need to spend time (pay someone for) bank runs to drop off cash and get change, or you need to pay for an armored car service to do it for you. You often have to pay the bank to handle frequent/large cash deposits to a commercial account. You are more likely to need security cameras/risk robbery. Et cetera.

I see so many small businesses now that only take cards.  Not sure if they are just catering to their clientele or legitimately analyzed the downsides of cash.

I suspect that some business only take cards b/c of the extra cost of operating both systems.  Once 90-95% of your customers are using cards the cost and hassle of taking cash isn't worth it.  In Amsterdam earlier this year I found that many business took only cash or cards but not both.

San Francisco has outlawed (or is about to outlaw) businesses only taking cards.  Their logic is that not accepting cash discriminates against poor people who only have cash.  While I understand their logic, I think businesses ought to be able to choose what form of payment they accept.  Should businesses be required to take cards b/c some people are broke but still have credit?

[SwordGuy]

While I understand their logic, I think businesses ought to be able to choose what form of payment they accept. 

My US paper currency says, and I quote, "This not is legal tender for all debts public and private".   And that's the way I like it.   No secret handshakes.  No special membership required.  You have US dollars, you have access to what you want at any business in the land.

[TomTX]

While I understand their logic, I think businesses ought to be able to choose what form of payment they accept. 

My US paper currency says, and I quote, "This not is legal tender for all debts public and private".   And that's the way I like it.   No secret handshakes.  No special membership required.  You have US dollars, you have access to what you want at any business in the land.

Which in no way forces someone to enter a sales transaction with you just because you have paper notes. There is no "debt" relationship.

[dragoncar]

While I understand their logic, I think businesses ought to be able to choose what form of payment they accept. 

My US paper currency says, and I quote, "This not is legal tender for all debts public and private".   And that's the way I like it.   No secret handshakes.  No special membership required.  You have US dollars, you have access to what you want at any business in the land.

Which in no way forces someone to enter a sales transaction with you just because you have paper notes. There is no "debt" relationship.

So you just steal the item you want.  Then they go hey you owe me $10!  Then throw the cash at them and run.

Since we are talking about SF, you can actually skip the last step since police/DA DGAF about petty crimes

[a-scho]

Any ideas/suggestions are more than welcome!!!
I will be going to university next year away from home and the maintenance loan just isn’t enough as I will only be able to receive around $2300 due to my parents being in the higher salary earning and unfortunately they’re not willing to help me out so i’m going to have to save up a lot over the next year as that will not even cover my rent. I have a job it’s 16h a week paying $7 per hour and I can’t get more hours/another job as I don’t have the time due to always being busy but this just covers my bus fare/food/clothes so I have around $20 left at the end of the month and I know that’s no where near enough the amount I need for university. So i’m wanting to know how you can save/earn money!! Thank you!!!

Since school is still a year away, you could change your mind about where you are going to school. If you want to keep your expenses as low as possible, you could go to a local community college(actually you might be able to start now while you are still in high school), stay at home, and then transfer to university after a couple of years. If your current school choice is the only choice you will consider.... you chose a school away from home, knowing you're not getting financial help from you parents, and also knowing(hopefully) you wouldn't qualify for a large loan because of your parents salary, and also knowing how much you make.... you could get another job where you'll earn more, work on campus when you move to college, and probably still have some student debt when you finish.

While rereading your post, I thought, "Hmmmm, parents are high salary but the kid has to pay for their own transportation, food, and clothing? Would the parents even let the kid stay in the home after graduating high school?" well if they will, great!!! if not, I would still try to get some GE credits done at a local community college, if your college allows that kind of thing. And definitely choose a major that will result in a good paying job right off the bat.

[flipboard]

San Francisco has outlawed (or is about to outlaw) businesses only taking cards.  Their logic is that not accepting cash discriminates against poor people who only have cash.  While I understand their logic, I think businesses ought to be able to choose what form of payment they accept.  Should businesses be required to take cards b/c some people are broke but still have credit?

If you see the extent of homelessness in SF, then you might understand why this law needs to exist. Homeless people also tend to be unbanked and have no access to cards - I think it's fair to protect them against yet more exclusion.

It's surprising that they're bothering to do this, given how they legislate against the homeless in general - but at least this is a positive piece of legislation given the circumstances.

[Kris]

Cash is legal tender. I see absolutely no reason why a business should be allowed to refuse it.

[Paul der Krake]

Cash is legal tender. I see absolutely no reason why a business should be allowed to refuse it.

I'm all for cash dying a quick death. Too much wastage, crime, and tax evasion (looking at you service workers).

[GuitarStv]

Cash is legal tender. I see absolutely no reason why a business should be allowed to refuse it.

I'm all for cash dying a quick death. Too much wastage, crime, and tax evasion (looking at you service workers).

Weren't we all supposed to be using bitcoin now anyway?

[flipboard]

Cash is legal tender. I see absolutely no reason why a business should be allowed to refuse it.

I'm all for cash dying a quick death. Too much wastage, crime, and tax evasion (looking at you service workers).

I'm all for card dying a quick death. Too many expenses, fees, complications, ID/card thefts, privacy losses (I'm looking at you FANGs), billing mistakes, slowdowns when the card reader doesn't work, etc.

Won't happen of course, but there are many drawbacks to card, and I'm fortunate to live in a place where cash continues to be king (ironically in a place where tax compliance is actually very high).

[HMman]

While I understand their logic, I think businesses ought to be able to choose what form of payment they accept. 

My US paper currency says, and I quote, "This not is legal tender for all debts public and private".   And that's the way I like it.   No secret handshakes.  No special membership required.  You have US dollars, you have access to what you want at any business in the land.

Which in no way forces someone to enter a sales transaction with you just because you have paper notes. There is no "debt" relationship.

To add to TomTX's comment, businesses in the US have no federal laws forcing them to accept cash - that seems to be a fairly common American myth.

https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm

[MilesTeg]

Cash is legal tender. I see absolutely no reason why a business should be allowed to refuse it.

Cash is legal tender for all forms of debt (loans or other scenarios where you already owe money), not all forms of payment for goods.

Given current trends, we're more likely to see cash made illegal rather than requisite.

[GuitarStv]

Cash is legal tender. I see absolutely no reason why a business should be allowed to refuse it.

I can think of two good reasons reasons:


- You're selling penny candy.  I want to buy one of your candies.  I've only got a hundred dollar bill.  You don't usually keep all that much money in the till . . . as you sell penny candy.
- I'm buying a car.  I want to pay in pennies.

[DadJokes]

Cash is legal tender. I see absolutely no reason why a business should be allowed to refuse it.

I can think of two good reasons reasons:


- You're selling penny candy.  I want to buy one of your candies.  I've only got a hundred dollar bill.  You don't usually keep all that much money in the till . . . as you sell penny candy.
- I'm buying a car.  I want to pay in pennies.

I would love to see $10k in pennies.

[MilesTeg]

Cash is legal tender. I see absolutely no reason why a business should be allowed to refuse it.

I can think of two good reasons reasons:


- You're selling penny candy.  I want to buy one of your candies.  I've only got a hundred dollar bill.  You don't usually keep all that much money in the till . . . as you sell penny candy.
- I'm buying a car.  I want to pay in pennies.

Well, better reasons include:

* Cash is expensive to handle (especially large amounts of cash). Armored services and bank handling fees are not cheap.
* Cash is more vulnerable to theft (both external and internal) and counter-fitting/fraud.
* As a corollary to the above 2, keeping large amounts of cash on hand also puts lives at risk.
* Cash is more vulnerable to errors during a transaction.

[Just Joe]

I would love to see $10k in pennies.

I bought a tank of gasoline for my car once with small coins. The clerk was NOT happy.

Schemes: buying tools, making a repair to house or car and then returning the tools. I've seen this with lawn equipment at big box retailers I think.

OLD scheme I saw as a kid with a grown friend of the family: visit a junkyard. Those old junkyards were big and would allow people they trusted to drive into the yard. Person I was with went to presumably get a starter or alternator. In reality they stripped an upscale version of their car for trim and interior parts and stuffed it all into their trunk. Paid for the starter or alternator and stole everything else. Guy then went on to upmarket his car from the basic stripper version to the version with all the doodads. Sell the car, bank the extra cash. Repeat. And yeah, things like that caught up with them eventually.

[dragoncar]

On topic though, I had a friend who has a landscaping business. Would buy a snowblower from Walmart, use it in a commercial fashion all winter, then when it inevitably broke from overuse since they're presumably engineered at that price point for a couple dozen uses per year, not a thousand, return it for a refund.

I'll cop to this one.  It wasn't my original intent, but I bought a cheap wood chipper from walmart, delivered.  I got through like 95% of my job when the blade cracked.  I returned it for a refund.  No way I wanted a replacement, as it was clearly an inferior product.

[SwordGuy]

On topic though, I had a friend who has a landscaping business. Would buy a snowblower from Walmart, use it in a commercial fashion all winter, then when it inevitably broke from overuse since they're presumably engineered at that price point for a couple dozen uses per year, not a thousand, return it for a refund.

I'll cop to this one.  It wasn't my original intent, but I bought a cheap wood chipper from walmart, delivered.  I got through like 95% of my job when the blade cracked.  I returned it for a refund.  No way I wanted a replacement, as it was clearly an inferior product.

I don't think you were unethical.   Makes sense to me.   

[GuitarStv]

On topic though, I had a friend who has a landscaping business. Would buy a snowblower from Walmart, use it in a commercial fashion all winter, then when it inevitably broke from overuse since they're presumably engineered at that price point for a couple dozen uses per year, not a thousand, return it for a refund.

I'll cop to this one.  It wasn't my original intent, but I bought a cheap wood chipper from walmart, delivered.  I got through like 95% of my job when the blade cracked.  I returned it for a refund.  No way I wanted a replacement, as it was clearly an inferior product.

I don't think you were unethical.   Makes sense to me.   

Agreed.  It's not unethical to use a poorly made product as it was designed to be used.  It's unethical to sell a poorly made product with the hopes that it won't receive enough use for the defects to be noticed.

[techwiz]

I would love to see $10k in pennies.

Here you go 1 million pennies or $10,000

[RyanAtTanagra]

It's unethical to sell a poorly made product with the hopes that it won't receive enough use for the defects to be noticed.

I don't think poorly made products are unethical in that sense.  It costs more money to make a higher quality product.  Not everyone needs a professional-grade $1000 lawnmower, for instance.  They can get by with a $200 one because they use it infrequently.  If all companies made all products to the highest quality possible, there would only be the $1000 model.

Now from an environmental standpoint, that's a different concern and one I have more of an issue with.

[GuitarStv]

It's unethical to sell a poorly made product with the hopes that it won't receive enough use for the defects to be noticed.

I don't think poorly made products are unethical in that sense.  It costs more money to make a higher quality product.  Not everyone needs a professional-grade $1000 lawnmower, for instance.  They can get by with a $200 one because they use it infrequently.  If all companies made all products to the highest quality possible, there would only be the $1000 model.

Now from an environmental standpoint, that's a different concern and one I have more of an issue with.

As far as I'm concerned, only the highest quality product should be made.  If it's too expensive, then people would pool resources (like creating tool libraries, etc.) to over come the cost.  More cheaper shit that doesn't really do the job very well is a solution looking for a problem.

[Roadrunner53]

I would be happy if a cheap item at least had some quality control. I have bought some different shelving, chrome carts and other things that are missing parts, holes you need to put bolts in are not aligned right. Just CRAP. How can a company make and ship this stuff when it is garbage. Missing parts are infuriating, misaligned holes are infuriating. I would like to send these manufacturers to an assembly room in hell and make them assemble CRAP for eternity as a punishment!

[RyanAtTanagra]

It's unethical to sell a poorly made product with the hopes that it won't receive enough use for the defects to be noticed.

I don't think poorly made products are unethical in that sense.  It costs more money to make a higher quality product.  Not everyone needs a professional-grade $1000 lawnmower, for instance.  They can get by with a $200 one because they use it infrequently.  If all companies made all products to the highest quality possible, there would only be the $1000 model.

Now from an environmental standpoint, that's a different concern and one I have more of an issue with.

As far as I'm concerned, only the highest quality product should be made.  If it's too expensive, then people would pool resources (like creating tool libraries, etc.) to over come the cost.  More cheaper shit that doesn't really do the job very well is a solution looking for a problem.

Agreed, this would be the much better solution.  Unfortunately people seem to be very opposed to it.  Maybe if they didn't have a choice but to buy and share the most expensive option?  More likely everyone would just own their own individual very expensive things, and complain even more about how impossible it is to get ahead.

[Roadrunner53]

The younger generation has no idea that things used to be made well and last a long time. Now it is expected that appliance's might last 5 years or not. I had a Frigidaire washer and dryer years ago when we built our home. It was not a top of the line set of machines but what we could afford with pretty empty pockets. Those two machines lasted 20 years and one was still running but I wanted a matching set so got rid of it. Now I have gone thru a multitude of washer's and driers, refrigerators and freezers. My second machine was a Maytag that I was so thrilled to get and thought I was getting a Rolls Royce of machines. It died at the age of 5 years old and back then they had 5 year warranties but alas, it died just months after the warranty expired. We had our Frigidaire refrigerator for about 20 years also. Bought a Maytag refrigerator and it died a little after a year. It had a year warranty but was expired too. No more Maytags for me! Bought a Kenmore Fridge and it is a workhorse. But, it is very disillusioning to know the appliances are ticking timebombs and ready to bite the dust at any given moment. It is always when you have a full fridge or two tons of laundry to do!

[MilesTeg]

It's unethical to sell a poorly made product with the hopes that it won't receive enough use for the defects to be noticed.

I don't think poorly made products are unethical in that sense.  It costs more money to make a higher quality product.  Not everyone needs a professional-grade $1000 lawnmower, for instance.  They can get by with a $200 one because they use it infrequently.  If all companies made all products to the highest quality possible, there would only be the $1000 model.

Now from an environmental standpoint, that's a different concern and one I have more of an issue with.

As far as I'm concerned, only the highest quality product should be made.  If it's too expensive, then people would pool resources (like creating tool libraries, etc.) to over come the cost.  More cheaper shit that doesn't really do the job very well is a solution looking for a problem.

So, I should only be able to buy the highest quality bikes made with the highest quality, longest lasting materials and processes and share them with my neighborhood because they are so expensive? I get to to ride the $10,000 bike once a month for 30 minutes?

[dragoncar]

It's unethical to sell a poorly made product with the hopes that it won't receive enough use for the defects to be noticed.

I don't think poorly made products are unethical in that sense.  It costs more money to make a higher quality product.  Not everyone needs a professional-grade $1000 lawnmower, for instance.  They can get by with a $200 one because they use it infrequently.  If all companies made all products to the highest quality possible, there would only be the $1000 model.

Now from an environmental standpoint, that's a different concern and one I have more of an issue with.

As far as I'm concerned, only the highest quality product should be made.  If it's too expensive, then people would pool resources (like creating tool libraries, etc.) to over come the cost.  More cheaper shit that doesn't really do the job very well is a solution looking for a problem.

So, I should only be able to buy the highest quality bikes made with the highest quality, longest lasting materials and processes and share them with my neighborhood because they are so expensive? I get to to ride the $10,000 bike once a month for 30 minutes?

No, highest quality doesn’t actually mean most expensive.  It just needs to last the longest.  Have fun riding your 200lb bicycle.

[GuitarStv]

It's unethical to sell a poorly made product with the hopes that it won't receive enough use for the defects to be noticed.

I don't think poorly made products are unethical in that sense.  It costs more money to make a higher quality product.  Not everyone needs a professional-grade $1000 lawnmower, for instance.  They can get by with a $200 one because they use it infrequently.  If all companies made all products to the highest quality possible, there would only be the $1000 model.

Now from an environmental standpoint, that's a different concern and one I have more of an issue with.

As far as I'm concerned, only the highest quality product should be made.  If it's too expensive, then people would pool resources (like creating tool libraries, etc.) to over come the cost.  More cheaper shit that doesn't really do the job very well is a solution looking for a problem.

So, I should only be able to buy the highest quality bikes made with the highest quality, longest lasting materials and processes and share them with my neighborhood because they are so expensive? I get to to ride the $10,000 bike once a month for 30 minutes?

I didn't mean to trigger American terror at the concept of sharing.  (Jesus McCarthy did a number on the collective mental state of your country.)

I'd define something as being high quality if it can do the task it was designed to do well and reliably for a long period of time.

If you want to buy a high quality 10,000$ race bike because it's a great bike designed for speed - cool.  Enjoy your bike.  If you want to mitigate the costs of the bike (perhaps aren't independently wealthy), then you would probably be interested in splitting use of it with another person (or several people).  Hell, this goes on pretty regularly even today . . . I know people who will rent deep section wheels for a bike race.

If you want to buy a Chinese carbon frame from Aliexpress that has had no safety/longevity testing done on it, but costs 100$ . . . I kinda think you shouldn't be allowed to do it.  Besides the personal risk to yourself (which in a civilized country that recognizes the right of citizens to health care ends up being a risk that everyone pays), there's also the waste created when the terrible product inevitably fails and is not worth fixing.

[Davnasty]

Not going to agree or disagree with the concept of government regulating quality (although there's certainly precedent for doing so in the form of safety regulations) but I've ridden a $225 (would've been $375 new) commuter bike near daily for going on 5 years and I've left it out in the rain more often than I'd like to admit. Despite neglecting proper maintenance on many occasions and letting it sit wet it's still in good structural shape. Replaced the chain/free wheel once, one new tire, a few tubes and brake pads but that's all to be expected. I also replaced the cheap plastic pedals after they disintegrated, a metal set might cost 20-50% more but they would last many times longer.

Compare that to a cheapo Huffy that I rode for less than a year (to be fair I bought it used as well so it was probably neglected) before the crankshaft slipped and I nearly swerved into traffic.

This is all anecdotal, but my point is quality where it counts can make a bike last many times longer for only a slight increase in cost. Suggesting that we don't allow the sale of unsafe and essentially disposable bikes is not the same as requiring high performance parts or indestructible heavy weight frames.

Another way to look at this is more pushing back against planned obsolescence than cheap products. In some cases making products disposable doesn't even save money or resources, it just makes it so the item wears out quickly and can't be repaired by the user. In an attempt to keep this on topic, planned obsolescence is definitely an unethical way to make money :)

[GuitarStv]

Not going to agree or disagree with the concept of government regulating quality (although there's certainly precedent for doing so in the form of safety regulations) but I've ridden a $225 (would've been $375 new) commuter bike near daily for going on 5 years and I've left it out in the rain more often than I'd like to admit. Despite neglecting proper maintenance on many occasions and letting it sit wet it's still in good structural shape. Replaced the chain/free wheel once, one new tire, a few tubes and brake pads but that's all to be expected. I also replaced the cheap plastic pedals after they disintegrated, a metal set might cost 20-50% more but they would last many times longer.

Compare that to a cheapo Huffy that I rode for less than a year (to be fair I bought it used as well so it was probably neglected) before the crankshaft slipped and I nearly swerved into traffic.

This is all anecdotal, but my point is quality where it counts can make a bike last many times longer for only a slight increase in cost. Suggesting that we don't allow the sale of unsafe and essentially disposable bikes is not the same as requiring high performance parts or indestructible heavy weight frames.

Another way to look at this is more pushing back against planned obsolescence than cheap products. In some cases making products disposable doesn't even save money or resources, it just makes it so the item wears out quickly and can't be repaired by the user. In an attempt to keep this on topic, planned obsolescence is definitely an unethical way to make money :)

Agreed.  My fancy bike is an 800$ steel touring bike, and she gives me many thousand km every year for the last seven or eight years.  Something doesn't have to be expensive to be high quality . . . but it does need to be able to do the job.

[MilesTeg]

It's unethical to sell a poorly made product with the hopes that it won't receive enough use for the defects to be noticed.

I don't think poorly made products are unethical in that sense.  It costs more money to make a higher quality product.  Not everyone needs a professional-grade $1000 lawnmower, for instance.  They can get by with a $200 one because they use it infrequently.  If all companies made all products to the highest quality possible, there would only be the $1000 model.

Now from an environmental standpoint, that's a different concern and one I have more of an issue with.

As far as I'm concerned, only the highest quality product should be made.  If it's too expensive, then people would pool resources (like creating tool libraries, etc.) to over come the cost.  More cheaper shit that doesn't really do the job very well is a solution looking for a problem.

So, I should only be able to buy the highest quality bikes made with the highest quality, longest lasting materials and processes and share them with my neighborhood because they are so expensive? I get to to ride the $10,000 bike once a month for 30 minutes?

No, highest quality doesn’t actually mean most expensive.  It just needs to last the longest.  Have fun riding your 200lb bicycle.

While it's not impossible to be low cost and high quality, you can't argue that higher quality does not correlate with higher cost.

For an ironic example, it's the 200lb bicycle that would probably be the longest lasting at the lowest cost and most environmentally friendly choice. Light yet strong materials tend to be much, much, much more expensive and energy intensive than strong but heavy materials (e.g. steel frame bike vs composite frame bike).