Frugal fatigue

[happy]

 Nords used the term  "frugal fatigue"  in a recent comprehensive post in this thread https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/any-early-retirement-fails-out-there/.

I hadn't heard the term before, and thought it would be interesting to explore. Is frugal fatigue some sort of  stoic failure with regard to mustachianism?  If we truly learn to be happy living on less then is this therefore not going to happen?  Or is it that some people solve the problem of frugality as a lifestyle and after a while want to move onto something else? Or is it that some don't really learn to have fun whilst living frugally and deep down are waiting until they can spend money again?

edit: typo

[Christiana]

The past 3 years, we've had one thing after another take bites out of our savings.  Some of these things were planned:  having two more children, buying a car with cash, starting up a small side business.  Some not:  various car repairs that almost equalled the price of our new used car, our landlord refusing to renew our month-to-month lease, my husband being laid off for four months, a surgery, a couple of ER visits, mold in the basement ruining a lot of our things, and so on.  We're making definite progress toward the life that we want to live, but the raw numbers have been very discouraging.

[matchewed]

I can understand the frugal fatigue concept if you have a rigid view towards your lifestyle. If you allow yourself to be flexible I think you can avoid it.

[schimt]

I can understand the frugal fatigue concept if you have a rigid view towards your lifestyle. If you allow yourself to be flexible I think you can avoid it.

I have to agree, the term frugal, to me, means really evaluating what makes you happy, and not using/spending/doing more or less then that. It does not mean setting unattainable goals that will make you miserable until some day that we have reached FIRE. MMM always speaks about being flexible in our lives including goals and plans. IMHO there should be no such thing as frugality fatigue, because you are not being frugal if you are unhappy, you are being cheap and irrational.

[arebelspy]

I can see how one might have frugal fatigue if they are trying to adjust downward - they've been on the hedonistic treadmill and expect things to be a certain way.

Once one has the correct mindset, however, I'm not sure frugal fatigue is a thing.

For example, I don't get frugal fatigue because I spend on everything I want.  I don't limit my spending in any way.  If I want something, I buy it. (I just don't want very much.)

Thus I never get frugal fatigue, because it's no work for me. I never have to limit myself, so what would get fatigued?

I highly recommend this strategy - it never takes any thinking or effort, and you get whatever you want, whenever you want.

[samburger]

I can imagine burning myself out if I'm not viciously honest with myself. I'm new to mustachianism--and new to making money, even--and I find that it's easy to be way too rigid with money. I'm so jazzed up about saving (investing!) that it's easy to talk myself out of just about every purchase. But if I let myself do that, I'm going to be feel totally deprived and fried in three years.

IMHO there should be no such thing as frugality fatigue, because you are not being frugal if you are unhappy, you are being cheap and irrational.

Exactly this, but when you're insecure (financially and emotionally), it's easy to blur the line between irrational cheapness and thoughtful frugality.

[MrsPete]

I can understand the concept. 

Two thoughts: 

First, is your hair on fire?  If your hair is on fire, you are "not allowed" to have frugal fatigue, no matter how much you may hanker for a treat.  If your hair is on fire, that must be your first priority, and feeling satisfied with your spending is secondary. 

Second, are you managing your money well, on track towards your goals, but just kind of "burned out" with your efforts towards frugal living?  If so -- and if it's more than a passing thought after hearing your co-worker brag about his vacation and new car -- you might need to reevaluate your spending.  After all, the cost of things does change, and what worked in 2010 may no longer work in 2014. 

Something I read once -- and I'm not off-topic here, just making a point:  Let's say you decide you've been using too much laundry detergent in your washing machine, and you think you can cut back on the quantity.  You've been using a large scoop.  You cut back to 1/2 a scoop, and you say, "No, not enough -- I'm not happy with how the clothes feel."  So you try 3/4 a scoop, and you discover that you're pleased with the results.  Now you're able to wash 5 loads with the same amount that had previously washed 4 loads, and you're "sure" that you're using the right level. 

So do the same thing with money.  If spending $50/week at the grocery store (or your entertainment budget or your clothing budget or whatever) just feels just too restrictive, try upping that amount slightly and see if the feeling of, "I am always doing without!" goes away.  But test it slowly and honestly with yourself. 

I agree with the poster who says it is easy to be too frugal with money . . . and work yourself into a corner, where you feel you must follow a super-strict budget or be a failure.  In reality, spending isn't static.  Right  now my husband and I are in a very expensive phase of our lives -- we're dealing with teenagers and college tuition.  We're spending more than we did ten years ago, but that's okay.  It's where we are in life, and we're planned for these expenses.  So we're not freaking out about spending. 

[Iron Mike Sharpe]

I can see how one might have frugal fatigue if they are trying to adjust downward - they've been on the hedonistic treadmill and expect things to be a certain way.

Once one has the correct mindset, however, I'm not sure frugal fatigue is a thing.

For example, I don't get frugal fatigue because I spend on everything I want.  I don't limit my spending in any way.  If I want something, I buy it. (I just don't want very much.)

Thus I never get frugal fatigue, because it's no work for me. I never have to limit myself, so what would get fatigued?

I highly recommend this strategy - it never takes any thinking or effort, and you get whatever you want, whenever you want.

This is where I am at.  It's pretty great.

[aclarridge]

I can see how one might have frugal fatigue if they are trying to adjust downward - they've been on the hedonistic treadmill and expect things to be a certain way.

Once one has the correct mindset, however, I'm not sure frugal fatigue is a thing.

For example, I don't get frugal fatigue because I spend on everything I want.  I don't limit my spending in any way.  If I want something, I buy it. (I just don't want very much.)

Thus I never get frugal fatigue, because it's no work for me. I never have to limit myself, so what would get fatigued?

I highly recommend this strategy - it never takes any thinking or effort, and you get whatever you want, whenever you want.

Somebody truly feeling this way has achieved godlike frugality I would say. For us mere mortals, finding your individual "goldilocks" level of spending is a journey and frugal fatigue probably happens to people that have cut a little too close for comfort. It's no problem, just adjust something (spending, expectations, income, etc.) and keep going.

[Jamesqf]

For example, I don't get frugal fatigue because I spend on everything I want.  I don't limit my spending in any way.  If I want something, I buy it. (I just don't want very much.)

Pretty close.  I actually want quite a lot of things, it's just that most of them are either free or really cheap.

[Cheddar Stacker]

I've been constantly re-evaluating my "goldilocks" level as FI40 put it, but I don't think it's frugal fatigue for me, it's building the frugal/stoic muscles. Although, for anyone who works out regularly, the basic theory is you work your muscles to fatigue, and it's the only way to truly strengthen them. So maybe frugal fatigue is a daily/weekly/monthly process needed to get to the arebelsy/iron mike sharpe/MMM level of Stoicism??

However, I do believe my DW has major fatigue from my frugality. Does that count? She's only about half on board with the changes over the last 4 months, but I've seen some major improvements recently so I'm optimistic for 2014 savings rate projections.

[steveo]

I don't get frugal fatigue because I spend on everything I want.  I don't limit my spending in any way.  If I want something, I buy it. (I just don't want very much.)

This is exactly the way I spend money. My Kindle broke and I bought a new one. I didn't even realise I had spent the money until I went through my spending for the previous month.

[Hedge_87]

I don't really get it but my wife does. She is on board for the most part but I know it eats at her when all her friends have new shiny cars and her mom goes to resorts all the time and comes back bragging about how awsome it was to get waited on hand and foot while there (I've been on one of those trips and no thank you it got really annoying lol). She understands though that it will pay of big later. Does anybody else think it's harder to stay positive and frugal in the winter time?

[C. K.]

happy, it all depends on a person's sense of deprivation. (Nords touches on this in that other thread.)

If you feel like work is depriving you from the things you want to do, you'll do what it takes to safely walk away from it.

If you feel retiring early deprives you of social status/structure/problems to solve, then you'll probably head back to work, whether you need the money or not.

Whether we're discussing work or attitudes or anything unpleasent or difficult, you change something to live the life you want. What you cannot change, find the benefits in it. In doing this, you will encounter a sense of deprivation less often, whether Mustachian or not.

[aclarridge]

Does anybody else think it's harder to stay positive and frugal in the winter time?

A bit. I think it's the lack of sunlight making things appear a little bit more gloomy in general.

[arebelspy]

I don't get frugal fatigue because I spend on everything I want.  I don't limit my spending in any way.  If I want something, I buy it. (I just don't want very much.)

This is exactly the way I spend money. My Kindle broke and I bought a new one. I didn't even realise I had spent the money until I went through my spending for the previous month.

Yup.  I left my iPad on an airplane.  Got a new one right away, because I wanted one.

Some things are worth it, some are not.  That's up to the individual person, but, as J.S. Mill said: "I have learned to seek my happiness by limiting my desires, rather than in attempting to satisfy them."

[soccerluvof4]

The fatigue for me is coming from trying to get those i have spoiled for so many years to get on board. However, i am implementing slowly and am making the bend! The curve is just so big but again to my own making.

Told you i was fatigued!

[Workinghard]

Hedge_87, it's hard for my spouse too when he sees his sister, who filed bankruptcy, driving a 2014 Prius because she can't afford car repairs.  He's driving a 1999 car and making more than double her income. Course she will never be able to retire. I doubt if she could live on SS. I keep telling him to hang in there.  Just 3 more years!

[Noodle]

I think different valuable emotions can all fall under the category of "frugal fatigue."

One might be the situation where (especially in a "hair on fire" time) when you are doing everything right, and the hits just keep coming (car accident, medical expenses, death in family, etc). It's really tough, and the best remedy I know for that, having been through it, is to keep reminding myself how much worse I'd be if I hadn't been making good choices.

Then there is the useful feeling that helps us evaluate whether we are making the right specific frugal choices for us (like the laundry detergent analysis). Maybe you decide to quit watching TV to free up time and money. For some people, after a couple of weeks they don't even miss it. But for other people, six months later you are feeling like you miss out on valuable social contact with your friends and family in being able to talk over what's on TV (for some people, a neutral subject like television is really helpful to have!) So then you look and see whether you can order just one or two shows online, or go over to someone's house, gift of adult beverage in hand, to watch or some other creative solution to get what you now know you actually want with the least expenditure, instead of just being on autopilot (everybody has cable). I think frugal fatigue like this tends to mostly disappear once you settle into the form of frugality that is right for you and your goals, and the most helpful thing is to approach it mindfully instead of just reacting (ordering a full cable package again in frustration).

Then there is the question of whether your bigger goals and timeline are the right fit--for instance, the poster above who realized that he would prefer a longer timeline rather than a laser-focused approach, and or perhaps dealing with family members who may not be on board, or who get it mentally but have not really taken it to heart. I think that questioning and addressing the bigger perspective (is this still what I want, is there something my spouse needs that she is not saying out loud?) can help resolve this.

SO I do think frugal fatigue can eventually disappear (I don't feel it much anymore myself) but although the first step might be "see if it passes" I think it can be useful to address it.

[MustachianAccountant]

I have to agree, the term frugal, to me, means really evaluating what makes you happy, and not using/spending/doing more or less then that. It does not mean setting unattainable goals that will make you miserable until some day that we have reached FIRE. MMM always speaks about being flexible in our lives including goals and plans. IMHO there should be no such thing as frugality fatigue, because you are not being frugal if you are unhappy, you are being cheap and irrational.

Well said!!

[Thegoblinchief]

We're in debt repayment crunch mode, so it sometimes gets tiring seeing how slow the numbers inch up. But just last week, I realized that because we've been SO disciplined on spending, we'll repay a debt in 7-8 months instead of the 18 months I had planned for, which kills of the biggest hair-on-fire emergency.

Once we're back to positive net worth, and especially closer to FI, I think we'll have no problem being like arebelspy.

[ender]

My biggest thing is the balance between "never spending for fun" and "feeling like I'm burning money up in spending for fun."

I recently changed my budget to give myself $150 each month to basically spend on whatever, dating, eating out, misc toys, etc. I definitely optimized my life into a point where I didn't spend any money, and this was causing me to realize I was waaaay too frugal to the point where I was having a hard time spending money in situations which make sense.

[smalllife]

I'm beginning to wonder if frugal fatigue means different things at different points in the FI journey.

Hair on fire/negative debt worth: don't really feel like you have the luxury of spending anything beyond basics, and as a result may develop frugal fatigue by depriving yourself of quasi-needs in order to get out of danger.  Very real, has a light at the end of the tunnel, but may or may not have options depending on the situation.

Positive net worth, but baby fuzz stache: the heat is off, but after going through fire you don't feel comfortable trying to Goldilocks your way out of frugal fatigue should you experience it.  At this point personality comes into play - some may be more willing to experiment to find the right fit for them while others aren't.

Crisis Resistance:  the weight is off, you can finally take bigger steps to achieve goals and priorities without feeling like you are jeopardizing you or your family's well being.  This reduced stress allows you to become even closer to the zen frugal ideal without even trying - if you do try, great things can happen here.

Independently Poor (rice and beans FI): your spending choices and how much they affect your timeline to FI are in stark relief, so you take the time to align your spending with your priorities.  Frugal fatigue at this point is emotionally or psychologically based rather than a reaction to circumstances.

Financially Independent: frugal fatigue a possibility if you miscalculated expenses or have a downturn in the economy your first couple of years, but largely is psychological.  True zen like living should not only be the ideal, but able to be achieved with most of your time available to take that journey.


Perhaps I read people's moods wrong, but the zen spenders seem to all be FI while the frugal fatigue candidates are in the earlier part of their journey.  I think the opportunities that arise from FI and the stress reduction once crisis resistant have a major impact in that regard.

*credit to the below conversation: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/how-has-achieving-crisis-resistance-(~$100k)-changed-your-life/msg177761/?topicseen#msg177761

[crumbcatcher]

I don't get frugal fatigue because I spend on everything I want.  I don't limit my spending in any way.  If I want something, I buy it. (I just don't want very much.)

This is exactly the way I spend money. My Kindle broke and I bought a new one. I didn't even realise I had spent the money until I went through my spending for the previous month.

Yup.  I left my iPad on an airplane.  Got a new one right away, because I wanted one.

Some things are worth it, some are not.  That's up to the individual person, but, as J.S. Mill said: "I have learned to seek my happiness by limiting my desires, rather than in attempting to satisfy them."

Reminds me of that old gem, "Happiness is not about having what you want, it's about wanting what you have."

I think that applies to "getting what you want and wanting what you get" too.  It's just that your wants change.

[Eric]

I'm beginning to wonder if frugal fatigue means different things at different points in the FI journey.

Hair on fire/negative debt worth: don't really feel like you have the luxury of spending anything beyond basics, and as a result may develop frugal fatigue by depriving yourself of quasi-needs in order to get out of danger.  Very real, has a light at the end of the tunnel, but may or may not have options depending on the situation.

Positive net worth, but baby fuzz stache: the heat is off, but after going through fire you don't feel comfortable trying to Goldilocks your way out of frugal fatigue should you experience it.  At this point personality comes into play - some may be more willing to experiment to find the right fit for them while others aren't.

Crisis Resistance:  the weight is off, you can finally take bigger steps to achieve goals and priorities without feeling like you are jeopardizing you or your family's well being.  This reduced stress allows you to become even closer to the zen frugal ideal without even trying - if you do try, great things can happen here.

Independently Poor (rice and beans FI): your spending choices and how much they affect your timeline to FI are in stark relief, so you take the time to align your spending with your priorities.  Frugal fatigue at this point is emotionally or psychologically based rather than a reaction to circumstances.

Financially Independent: frugal fatigue a possibility if you miscalculated expenses or have a downturn in the economy your first couple of years, but largely is psychological.  True zen like living should not only be the ideal, but able to be achieved with most of your time available to take that journey.


Perhaps I read people's moods wrong, but the zen spenders seem to all be FI while the frugal fatigue candidates are in the earlier part of their journey.  I think the opportunities that arise from FI and the stress reduction once crisis resistant have a major impact in that regard.

*credit to the below conversation: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/how-has-achieving-crisis-resistance-(~$100k)-changed-your-life/msg177761/?topicseen#msg177761

I think you're onto something here.  Like if your hair was on fire AND you left your iPad on a plane?  First, you're not getting a new iPad and second, what the hell were you doing on a plane anyway?

[sheepstache]

I've thought about frugal fatigue in the context of how much safety margin I want in my "Number."  Right now being frugal as possible is a fun game but what I mostly like is not having to think about money.  Once sticking to the budget became a necessity, I think I'd be thinking about money more often and I can see how that might lead to "frugal fatigue," for me.

Dealing with frugality around others might cause it too.  For example if you and your partner disagree about what's worth spending on.  You wouldn't be tired of not spending the money, but you might get tired of trying to avoid it.

[Nords]

It's a term created by the NFCC a few years ago:
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/americans-latest-problem-frugal-fatigue-2011-02-09

The situation raises a question that most consumers would not bother to ask themselves, namely whether easing their spending deficiencies will still feel the same going forward.

Say you are one of the consumers whose lifestyle has changed, and tomorrow you have the ability to increase your spending — not like you won the lottery, but like you got a small pay increase or paid off the credit cards. Would the increased spending be as satisfying as it felt before you ever experienced the financial struggles of the last few years?

If so, then you not only have frugal fatigue, but a real propensity to go back to your bad habits. If not, then you’ve answered the economy’s wake-up call and you are coming to a new level of alertness.

Over time, the hope is that even people feeling some measure of frugal fatigue will find a way to address it with some measure of responsibility. It’s akin to someone on a diet who is able to have a piece of cake now and then; they just can’t have a slice at every meal.

I think anyone who tries to live Jacob's Bay Area lifestyle will soon know whether they can experience the same phenomenon.

Frugal fatigue is probably a good hint that you've crossed the line from fulfilling frugality into deprivation.  Even 12 years into ER we still find ourselves crossing over to it occasionally.

[LibraTraci]

I actually think frugal fatigue may be part of the journey -- I'm thinking that we don't really know which frugalities will feel like a grind, and which ones will be no big deal, until we try it out.

For example, if you realize that hour habit of buying e-books might be a good place to cut costs (by using the local library instead), then you just have to try it and see.  If you do this for four weeks, and realize you hardly miss those kindle books, then you've just scored a win.  If four weeks go by, and you realize, "Gosh, this sucks", then you go back to your old ways -- no harm done.

It helps, of course, if you have the flexibility to overspend once in a while.  The other day, I had an appointment in a part of town I don't usually go to, and wound up arriving 40 minutes early.  Since I arrived by public transportation (and because it's too f*cking cold out to kill time outdoors), I went to a nearby coffee shop and spent $5 on coffee and a biscotti).  I am really glad that I have the flexilibity to piss away small amounts of money here and there, and can imagine experiencing frugal fatigue if I *had* to cut to the bone, for years, just to get to zero net worth. 

[rocklebock]

I actually think frugal fatigue may be part of the journey -- I'm thinking that we don't really know which frugalities will feel like a grind, and which ones will be no big deal, until we try it out.

That has been my experience. I've scaled waaay back in the last few months, in the name of paying off a 2nd mortgage. It's been educational to see when overly frugal turns into totally depressing. Some things I thought would be torture to do without I don't miss at all. But then this week I reached my threshold with mozzarella cheese, of all things. In the past I would always get the "real" (expensive) fresh buffalo mozzarella. This time I thought "How bad can the cheap store-brand mozzarella be? I'll save $3!" It was so completely awful I regretted paying any money for it at all. And yet I can't bring myself to throw it out because I hate wasting food. Damn, I'd pay someone the $3 I saved just to get it out of my fridge.

[Paulie]

I actually think frugal fatigue may be part of the journey -- I'm thinking that we don't really know which frugalities will feel like a grind, and which ones will be no big deal, until we try it out.

That has been my experience. I've scaled waaay back in the last few months, in the name of paying off a 2nd mortgage. It's been educational to see when overly frugal turns into totally depressing. Some things I thought would be torture to do without I don't miss at all. But then this week I reached my threshold with mozzarella cheese, of all things. In the past I would always get the "real" (expensive) fresh buffalo mozzarella. This time I thought "How bad can the cheap store-brand mozzarella be? I'll save $3!" It was so completely awful I regretted paying any money for it at all. And yet I can't bring myself to throw it out because I hate wasting food. Damn, I'd pay someone the $3 I saved just to get it out of my fridge.

This is very recognizable! Once you know how something can/should taste, the cheaper alternative can be very dissappointing! But these are things that I consciously choose to spend money on.

[Workinghard]

Like sheepstache, I think of it as a game. When I went back to work, our goal was not to increase our living expenses. We continue to do our own yard, pool, and house work.

I try to limit my reaction when my dh buys a common sale item at regular price. Until I started working again, I did most of the shopping. It does irk me when he makes an extra car trip rather than consolidating errands but that's his "recreation." He works 12 hr shifts and has to get out of the house on his days off.

Having said that, I have splurged in a couple of areas since going back to work. We get our dog clipped every 4 months which cuts down on hair annoyance tremendously. Oh, and there's McDonalds ice coffee. That's a $25 monthly gift card expense which helps me get through long work days. If I get gift cards for my BD/Christmas (as I request), that expense is cut down.

[BPA]

I can see how one might have frugal fatigue if they are trying to adjust downward - they've been on the hedonistic treadmill and expect things to be a certain way.

Once one has the correct mindset, however, I'm not sure frugal fatigue is a thing.

For example, I don't get frugal fatigue because I spend on everything I want.  I don't limit my spending in any way.  If I want something, I buy it. (I just don't want very much.)

Thus I never get frugal fatigue, because it's no work for me. I never have to limit myself, so what would get fatigued?

I highly recommend this strategy - it never takes any thinking or effort, and you get whatever you want, whenever you want.

^^^This.  There was a time in my life where I wanted the usual trappings of middle class life because I'd always been poor and thought I'd missed out on a lot.  I got frugal fatigue until I reframed my thoughts.

Now, I don't want much, but I buy what I want much of the time.  I don't feel deprived, so I have no frugal fatigue.

I have to say that I am so glad I've never had the luxury of a car so that taking the bus, walking, or cycling are my means of transportation. 

[arebelspy]

I'm beginning to wonder if frugal fatigue means different things at different points in the FI journey.

Hair on fire/negative debt worth: don't really feel like you have the luxury of spending anything beyond basics, and as a result may develop frugal fatigue by depriving yourself of quasi-needs in order to get out of danger.  Very real, has a light at the end of the tunnel, but may or may not have options depending on the situation.

Positive net worth, but baby fuzz stache: the heat is off, but after going through fire you don't feel comfortable trying to Goldilocks your way out of frugal fatigue should you experience it.  At this point personality comes into play - some may be more willing to experiment to find the right fit for them while others aren't.

Crisis Resistance:  the weight is off, you can finally take bigger steps to achieve goals and priorities without feeling like you are jeopardizing you or your family's well being.  This reduced stress allows you to become even closer to the zen frugal ideal without even trying - if you do try, great things can happen here.

Independently Poor (rice and beans FI): your spending choices and how much they affect your timeline to FI are in stark relief, so you take the time to align your spending with your priorities.  Frugal fatigue at this point is emotionally or psychologically based rather than a reaction to circumstances.

Financially Independent: frugal fatigue a possibility if you miscalculated expenses or have a downturn in the economy your first couple of years, but largely is psychological.  True zen like living should not only be the ideal, but able to be achieved with most of your time available to take that journey.


Perhaps I read people's moods wrong, but the zen spenders seem to all be FI while the frugal fatigue candidates are in the earlier part of their journey.  I think the opportunities that arise from FI and the stress reduction once crisis resistant have a major impact in that regard.

*credit to the below conversation: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/how-has-achieving-crisis-resistance-(~$100k)-changed-your-life/msg177761/?topicseen#msg177761

(Emphasis mine.)

Ah, but *mumble mumble correlation causation mumble mumble*

Are you sure the people who get frugal fatigue get it because they are in the the lower stages?  Or are they in the lower stages because they get frugal fatigue?

[arebelspy]

I think you're onto something here.  Like if your hair was on fire AND you left your iPad on a plane?  First, you're not getting a new iPad and second, what the hell were you doing on a plane anyway?

Ah, see, this is where I disagree.

My spending with negative net worth (or slightly positive, don't have the records for that era, and it depends on how underwater some of my properties were, which is sort of unknowable without comps from back then, which may not have been accurate anyways) is the exact same as now with a 500k+ NW.  I'm not going to stop my trips or having items I enjoy because I don't have a ton of money.  If I can afford it (as defined by not going into debt to get it), and I want it, I'll get it.

Conversely: I'm not going to up my spending from then just because I now have a positive net worth, extra cash flow from rentals, etc.  My spending will be the same.

In either case, me of a few years ago with a 0 net worth, or me of today, has a 70%+ savings rate.  Just the fact that I have no net worth doesn't mean I won't get on a plane or rebuy a lost item, and why should it?

Again, it goes back to why I wouldn't get frugal fatigue: there's nothing to fatigue, because I don't limit myself. 

Buy what is truly important to you, and cut out the rest.

[Tyler]

I think frugal fatigue is caused by the exact same mechanism as career fatigue.  If you build your life too heavily around any one focus, it eventually will wear thin and you'll be left wondering what other options are out there.  Since career fatigue is exactly what drives many people towards frugality in search of financial independence, it should come as no surprise that some overcompensate in the exact same way and over-do the money focus for a while.  The "Zen" references above are hinting not at superpowers, but simply at having a healthy non-obsessive mindset towards every aspect of your life.  Including spending and savings.

Don't let money define you.  Neither the drive to make more, nor the drive to spend as little as possible.  Just be yourself.  Being frugal doesn't mean changing yourself, but coming to learn what level of spending truly makes you happy.  And that level is usually a lot lower than you think.

[smalllife]

I think you're onto something here.  Like if your hair was on fire AND you left your iPad on a plane?  First, you're not getting a new iPad and second, what the hell were you doing on a plane anyway?

Ah, see, this is where I disagree.

. . . . .

Buy what is truly important to you, and cut out the rest.

Would you do this even if it contradicted other goals or desires? For someone with a lot of debt who wants to put in some upfront costs (raised garden bed, supplies for non-essential DIY, etc.) they might not be able buy what is truly important to them without cutting into debt repayment or coming up against limits with other goals.  What if what's truly important to you is time?  How does that weigh against other things that are truly important to you but you can't have one without giving up the other?  At some point values butt heads and not everyone can have all of it at once.

Your response to that will probably be "rearrange your values so that you only value what you can have" .  . . but then aren't you making those same choices, just with a different psychological twist? 

[arebelspy]

Someone with contradictory goals and desires has not fully thought through their goals and desires.

It's not that they need to rearrange them, as you say at the end, but that they need to develop and understand them.

[Villanelle]

I've never really experienced this, but maybe that's because I don't consider myself especially frugal.

First, my household spend more than MMM's.  By a great deal.  By his own standards, he spends extravagantly.  So by his standards, I'm surely a wasteful, gluttonous clown. 

But beyond that, I really don't have a sense of whether I'm actually frugal or not.  That may be a strange thing to say, but it's my reality.  I don't have a budget.  I evaluate each purchase individually and decide if it's worth it.  And like MMM, I am in a position to afford just about anything I deem worthwhile.  When my Kindle broke, I ordered another one.  Without pause or thought.  If I want to travel to Prague, I do some research and book it.

But when I was recently tasked with planning a vacation for my mom, sister and me, on my mom's dollar (and my parents can easily, easily afford whatever the hell they want), I found that I was constantly looking at ways to save a buck, and my mom had to continually remind me that for her, this is a once in a lifetime thing that she's always dreamed of, and that I didn't need to be so cheap with her money. 

Because that trip to Prague I mention was picked because we could drive and save some money. And I found a list of cheap or free things to do there (and some extravagances as well.  See the Kindle philosophy.) So I didn't limit myself, but once the choice was made, I found ways to maximize every dollar (or Krona) we'd be spending.

So maybe I spend "too much".  (By whose definitions, I'm not sure.)  Or even "a lot", but by the standards of the average American, I'm not just frugal, I'm super frugal.  But I'm comfortable with what my FIRE timeline looks like, as is my husband.  So I think we are good.  And while occasionally I dream of being able to fly my best friends and their kids out for an amazing vacation for all of us, in general, I don't ever really feel Want.

[Albert]

This frugality fatigue is a lot easier to avoid if you have plenty of money and are able to spend more if you suddenly wish to. I haven't experienced it lately because I can afford all I want and I don't want an awful lot. I suspect for me personally frugality fatigue would set in double fast if it started to impact my social life. Having to decline invitations for something like a house party or for hiking in the mountains with friends because of money would really suck.

[Mazzinator]

Arebelspy, why do i always feel like you are talking directly to me? Yikes!

Do you think there's a "learning curve" for some of newbies? What if you've been "clawing your way back from the brink of doo doo" for 20 years? Wouldn't it then be hard to recognize the difference between 'things that must be done' from 'deprivation'?

[smalllife]

Someone with contradictory goals and desires has not fully thought through their goals and desires.

It's not that they need to rearrange them, as you say at the end, but that they need to develop and understand them.

I would definitely agree that they would need to develop and understand their goals and desires, I certainly do.  However, I also think that development and understanding takes time/money that not everyone has to spare (probably because they haven't developed their values, but that's another conversation).   Personally I know that my values are incompatible with having a full time job, but I don't yet have the FI luxury to live them completely.  It's a balance I'm working on but I don't think will be resolved for another 5-10 years as I build my stache and can afford to structure my life in a way that aligns with my core desires.   

[ace1224]

i think frugal fatigue is very real especially when you're first starting out.  back when i had hair on fire emergency debt and i was backed up against a wall and literally had 2 dollars a month left over after paying bills i HAD to be frugal.  and i hated it.  i hated watching my pennies, hated trying to find a cheaper option, hated having to "go without", hated having to turn down invitations to places because i needed to put that money towards debt. i would get to the point that if i felt like i didn't splurge on something i would explode.  even if it was a damn starbucks drink.
but then slowly as my debt went down and then i had actually money, i realized, hey..... i like money.  i like having it.  then i didn't "need" stuff the way i did anymore.  when being frugal became something i CHOSE instead of something i HAD to do it was way more fun, and easier.
does that make any sense?

[smalllife]

i think frugal fatigue is very real especially when you're first starting out.  back when i had hair on fire emergency debt and i was backed up against a wall and literally had 2 dollars a month left over after paying bills i HAD to be frugal.  and i hated it.  i hated watching my pennies, hated trying to find a cheaper option, hated having to "go without", hated having to turn down invitations to places because i needed to put that money towards debt. i would get to the point that if i felt like i didn't splurge on something i would explode.  even if it was a damn starbucks drink.
but then slowly as my debt went down and then i had actually money, i realized, hey..... i like money.  i like having it.  then i didn't "need" stuff the way i did anymore.  when being frugal became something i CHOSE instead of something i HAD to do it was way more fun, and easier.
does that make any sense?

Pretty much sums up my first post in this thread about how frugal fatigue changes over the journey.  We've had that same discussion before regarding forced frugality when poor vs chosen frugality on a high income and how the fact that it is a choice really makes a difference.

[CommonCents]

I think you're onto something here.  Like if your hair was on fire AND you left your iPad on a plane?  First, you're not getting a new iPad and second, what the hell were you doing on a plane anyway?

Ah, see, this is where I disagree.

. . . . .

Buy what is truly important to you, and cut out the rest.

Would you do this even if it contradicted other goals or desires? For someone with a lot of debt who wants to put in some upfront costs (raised garden bed, supplies for non-essential DIY, etc.) they might not be able buy what is truly important to them without cutting into debt repayment or coming up against limits with other goals.  What if what's truly important to you is time?  How does that weigh against other things that are truly important to you but you can't have one without giving up the other?  At some point values butt heads and not everyone can have all of it at once.

Your response to that will probably be "rearrange your values so that you only value what you can have" .  . . but then aren't you making those same choices, just with a different psychological twist?

This seems a lack of priority of values.  For example...does gardening really need raised beds, or can you garden (at least for now) in your backyard without them and buy/trade for seeds rather than seedlings.  My grandparents did that with a huge garden (and according to my mom, it was small from great-grandpa's).  You need to decide what is MOST important and work from there. 

[arebelspy]

Arebelspy, why do i always feel like you are talking directly to me? Yikes!

I don't know, but I hope that isn't a bad thing.  Sorry.  :)

Do you think there's a "learning curve" for some of newbies? What if you've been "clawing your way back from the brink of doo doo" for 20 years? Wouldn't it then be hard to recognize the difference between 'things that must be done' from 'deprivation'?

Sure, absolutely.  Until you have the right mindset, it is definitely a thing.

But, like I said in my first post on this thread:

Once one has the correct mindset, however, I'm not sure frugal fatigue is a thing.

So those of you with frugal fatigue: take heart.  It will pass, and you will be very happy with your frugal ways, and in fact not even think of it.  :)

[Mazzinator]

Arebelspy, why do i always feel like you are talking directly to me? Yikes!

I don't know, but I hope that isn't a bad thing.  Sorry.  :)

Do you think there's a "learning curve" for some of newbies? What if you've been "clawing your way back from the brink of doo doo" for 20 years? Wouldn't it then be hard to recognize the difference between 'things that must be done' from 'deprivation'?

Sure, absolutely.  Until you have the right mindset, it is definitely a thing.

But, like I said in my first post on this thread:

Once one has the correct mindset, however, I'm not sure frugal fatigue is a thing.

So those of you with frugal fatigue: take heart.  It will pass, and you will be very happy with your frugal ways, and in fact not even think of it.  :)

No need to apologize. I meant it in a serendipity kind of way. Like, when i go to church, and mass is about the same thing i was thinking about all week. How did they know i've been thinking about that? They didn't.

Anyways, i guess i should just be thanking you for your words of wisdom, and know that you are helping someone ;)

^^^This.  There was a time in my life where I wanted the usual trappings of middle class life because I'd always been poor and thought I'd missed out on a lot.  I got frugal fatigue until I reframed my thoughts.

I think this is where i am..i still feel like i'm missing something...

Next stop...correcting mindset...

[Nords]

I actually think frugal fatigue may be part of the journey -- I'm thinking that we don't really know which frugalities will feel like a grind, and which ones will be no big deal, until we try it out.

That has been my experience. I've scaled waaay back in the last few months, in the name of paying off a 2nd mortgage. It's been educational to see when overly frugal turns into totally depressing. Some things I thought would be torture to do without I don't miss at all. But then this week I reached my threshold with mozzarella cheese, of all things. In the past I would always get the "real" (expensive) fresh buffalo mozzarella. This time I thought "How bad can the cheap store-brand mozzarella be? I'll save $3!" It was so completely awful I regretted paying any money for it at all. And yet I can't bring myself to throw it out because I hate wasting food. Damn, I'd pay someone the $3 I saved just to get it out of my fridge.

Ah, it's all about perspective and context.  See, if it was pizza night on day #78 of a 90-day submarine patrol, that cheap store-brand cheese would be yummy.

Of course I'd be a little suspicious of the lettuce and the eggs by that day, but I'd still be willing to do a taste test.

I think this is where i am..i still feel like i'm missing something...
Next stop...correcting mindset...

Again, you have perspective.

I remember a poster on another board who was trying to cut his annual spending to a bare-bones budget of... $125K.  He said he was hoping for help and open to criticism, but that turned out to be not the case.  He insisted that he couldn't do without any of the things we recommended cutting out of his budget.  When we pointed out that preschoolers didn't need designer jeans, that incited a long rant about how he'd been put down by his school mates when he was a kid just because he didn't have "nice clothes", and so his kids weren't going to suffer the same fate.

You might be missing something, but it's probably not very much.

[happy]

What a great lot of posts...I can't think of anything wise to say :)

Frugal fatigue is probably a good hint that you've crossed the line from fulfilling frugality into deprivation.  Even 12 years into ER we still find ourselves crossing over to it occasionally.

Nords, can you expand on this a bit more?  Do you mean you've been too frugal ie deprivation and are suddenly dreaming about/itching to spending a lot of money on ridiculous things?  Or is more a blah blah life is boring nothingness because we've cut everything out?

[arebelspy]

No need to apologize. I meant it in a serendipity kind of way. Like, when i go to church, and mass is about the same thing i was thinking about all week. How did they know i've been thinking about that? They didn't.

Anyways, i guess i should just be thanking you for your words of wisdom, and know that you are helping someone ;)

Okay, good.  And thanks.  :)

I think this is where i am..i still feel like i'm missing something...

Next stop...correcting mindset...

Once you understand it, which you probably do, it's just a matter of setting it in over time.  Be patient with yourself, work on it, and soon you won't have to.  :)

[NumberJohnny5]

I think I'm experiencing it, though I'm not entirely sure why.

Been looking at upgrading computers. Want a big powerful server for me, plus some Win8 tablets (one for me, one for oldest son, dunno if we'd get more). I can somewhat justify the purchase, as computers are my thing, and we've spent very little on that category recently. I have to keep fixing my laptop, it's just not built that well (bought in 2011, at the price paid I guess I should be happy).

Spending a decent bit to go to Disneyland. I know I know, but we'll already be in LA, so the extra travel expense is low.

I know we're going to go out to eat a lot, probably multiple times a week (at least for the first several weeks). Lots of shopping to. We've been holding off a lot of purchases for a while. I did finally break down and buy a new pair of >$100 shoes, which wore out before the year was up (<$50 shoes in the US seem to hold up as well, if not better).

But, I don't want to spend all that money, at least not until we've maxed out various retirement accounts. With a new baby, and less money coming in (due to wife taking off for aforementioned baby), it's a rather lofty goal. I think it'd be less stressful if I simply said "to heck with maxing out the Roth this year!"; then again, I'd simply be moving the stress to a point farther in the future.

Funny how I haven't moved past the "if only we had a little more money" phase.