Author Topic: Any early retirement fails out there?  (Read 52786 times)

geohbs

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Any early retirement fails out there?
« on: February 04, 2014, 09:03:02 AM »
Hi there! As a new Mustachian about 5 years away from ER, I am curious if anyone out there has had an early retirement fail. And if so - why, or what lessons did you learn from it?  What would you have done differently? Thanks!

bugbaby

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Re: Any early retirement fails out there?
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2014, 01:12:14 PM »
EPIC CASE from the dot.com heyday:

http://www.retireearlyhomepage.com/rob_bennett_know.html
http://www.retireearlyhomepage.com/rob_failure.html

He singlehandedly contributed a new noun / phenomenon to the English language :
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hocomania&r=f

soccerluvof4

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Re: Any early retirement fails out there?
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2014, 01:22:16 PM »
Thats funny! good read....haha

foobar

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Re: Any early retirement fails out there?
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2014, 02:47:02 PM »
More like sad. That is guy with serious mental problems and I am willing to bet he isn't getting treatment.

I would like to see someone who tried the 4% and things didn't work out (either poor returns, unexpected expenses,...) but I am guessing not many of them every come back and talk about it. Admitting failure is real hard.

Thats funny! good read....haha

2527

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Re: Any early retirement fails out there?
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2014, 05:48:47 PM »
I once hired a guy in 2004 who was in his 40s.  He thought he had retired for good.  Dot.com bust got him, and he put himself back in the workforce.  He found himself a nice job, which isn't always possible.

HappierAtHome

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Re: Any early retirement fails out there?
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2014, 06:47:29 PM »
Not me, but my Dad.

I think he had about $200k (maybe) in an inheritance. For some reason he decided that this was adequate for him to quit his job and not have any plans to get another. His spending was not anywhere near low enough for a retirement figure of anything under a million. Of course he ran out of money pretty quickly. 

He blames being poor on having kids, yet we were all self sufficient when he pulled the plug on working, and we'll be supporting him in his old age.

Sadly, from what I've seen on this forum I think a lot of us have parents who will choose or be forced to retire early without sufficient savings/investments to see them through.

Nords

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Re: Any early retirement fails out there?
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2014, 10:25:45 PM »
Hi there! As a new Mustachian about 5 years away from ER, I am curious if anyone out there has had an early retirement fail. And if so - why, or what lessons did you learn from it?  What would you have done differently? Thanks!
In 1998 one of my ER'd relatives shorted the heck out of the NASDAQ.  The margin calls shorted him right back into the workforce but he retired again in 2005.

A shipmate retired on his military pension in the early 2000s at the age of 41 and, although his finances were fine, he almost immediately crashed/burned.  Within two months of starting terminal leave he found himself sitting on the couch all day watching TV, and he said even his dog was getting disgusted with him.  He took a contractor job pretty close to his old military command and has been happily enjoying the structured workforce environment ever since.  In his case, he didn't have a plan and wasn't capable of being responsible for his own entertainment.

One of our neighbors just retired six weeks ago.  Her spouse died suddenly a little over two years ago and she's been struggling ever since.  I'm not sure exactly why she retired, and that's probably because she's not sure either.  She's financially independent and extremely frugal but her retirement is going very badly because she has no idea what she's going to do with herself.  I think she expected her adult offspring (and grandkids) to gather around her and entertain her all day, but they have their own lives to live.  Right now she's in a mode of frenzied errands and hypercleaning, but she's starting to suffer repetitive stress injuries.  She's slowly starting to reach out to build her social network with family & friends, but she's also driving people nuts.  This retirement is too close to call either way, but I can guarantee copious amounts of drama.

Raddr has a nine-year thread on his hypothetical Y2K ER (end of 1999) who has been blithely spending according to the 4% SWR:
http://www.raddr-pages.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1208&start=390#p52998
Clearly a case of an inflexible robot that won't cut spending even when it's urgently necessary.

Jacob Lund Fisker kicked off a fairly impassioned debate by taking a job.  Some think that he became frugally fatigued of the ERE lifestyle, others think his ERE finances were failing.  He says he's just working on a fascinating problem for money that he doesn't need.  I no longer have an opinion on this debate.

Dixonge and VACollector on Early-Retirement.org made a couple of pretty good runs at ER.  Dixonge blew up on an options trading strategy; he and his spouse ended up converting to a minimalist lifestyle.  They're getting back on track and may be back to ER by now.  VACollector went big on Bank of America stock by averaging down in 2008... right up until they cut the dividend.  I can't remember whether it disrupted or "merely" delayed his ER, but I think he recovered.  Both of them have thoroughly discussed the lessons learned:  diversification.

I've been accused of ER failure for earning money from royalties & blogging.  All of that revenue has been donated to military charities, but apparently the only way to silence the last few skeptics would be to have them lead the IRS audit. 

I know several people on the path to ER who have self-diagnosed their frugal fatigue and decided to enjoy life a little more by spending a little more.  This may delay their ER by a few years but they're much happier with the present.

I know several entrepreneurs who have cashed out in their 20s, 30s, 40s, and 50s.  No matter their age, they can't shut it off and soon start another company or begin investing in other startups.  I think they're hardwired to be entrepreneurs and the money is just a scorecard.

EPIC CASE from the dot.com heyday:
http://www.retireearlyhomepage.com/rob_bennett_know.html
http://www.retireearlyhomepage.com/rob_failure.html
He singlehandedly contributed a new noun / phenomenon to the English language :
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hocomania&r=f
Thats funny! good read....haha
More like sad. That is guy with serious mental problems and I am willing to bet he isn't getting treatment.
I would like to see someone who tried the 4% and things didn't work out (either poor returns, unexpected expenses,...) but I am guessing not many of them every come back and talk about it. Admitting failure is real hard.
He's one of the Internet's worst trolls.  I was around for his Early-Retirement.org heyday, and it was a disastrous uproar.  His most recent notoriety involved lengthy discussions with Wade Pfau about market valuations & SWR, mainly via e-mail.  When H0cus inevitably found fault with Wade's research and conclusions, H0cus began tweeting the contents of what Wade felt were private e-mails.  I've also watched H0cus start the same "discussion" process at two conferences with two other unsuspecting bloggers.  When we see it happening, the rest of us step in and direct the unsuspecting person's attention to the above links so that they can form their own conclusions.

As foobar says, I suspect that most of the ER failures are never publicized.

dragoncar

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Re: Any early retirement fails out there?
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2014, 10:50:35 PM »
Wow, Nords, great summary.

Interesting that so many are psychological failures, rather than economic.

I really doubt Jacob failed economically -- after all, his wife still worked, and he must have earned at least $100k extra from side gigs like the book.

FiveSigmas

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Re: Any early retirement fails out there?
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2014, 11:06:02 PM »
Thanks, Nords, for the very informative post.

Shor

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Re: Any early retirement fails out there?
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2014, 01:13:29 AM »
Very interesting, nothing to sap up al lthat smug of ER like a failed attempt at ER leading in to an attempted re-entry to the workforce..
I think one problem people have after ER is figuring out what they actually want to do with their life now. Work kinda sorta defines us working force types. We can't sit all day as internet warriors. We eventually need to have that purpose, any kind of purpose, and if we can't find it within ourselves we end up seeking it out externally (via spending for happiness, or just working to work)

I know of no ER failures myself (yet?).

sheepstache

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Re: Any early retirement fails out there?
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2014, 01:30:18 AM »
Huh!  I only knew of Rob Bennett from the Bad Money Advice comments.  I vaguely recall that his comments always seemed intelligent and relevant.  Of course, the subject of ER never came up.  I always wondered about the couple of times other commenters gave him the smack down about being a crank :)

Bigote

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Re: Any early retirement fails out there?
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2014, 02:07:38 AM »
My in laws.   Ok, it wasn't an early retirement, he was pushed out of his law firm at 60.  They made it 15 years on their own, now they're underwater.   

2527

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Re: Any early retirement fails out there?
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2014, 10:24:44 AM »
I think the key in ER and all of life is to walk toward something, not away from something.  ER implies walking away.

Nords

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Re: Any early retirement fails out there?
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2014, 10:30:50 AM »
I think the key in ER and all of life is to walk toward something, not away from something.  ER implies walking away.
I think the ER implication is in the eye of the beholder. 

I was happy to ER because my job was getting in the way of all the other things I wanted to do with my life.  Yet a few of my relatives & friends think ER is a euphemism for "can't find a job".

2527

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Re: Any early retirement fails out there?
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2014, 10:36:16 AM »
You walked toward something.

soccerluvof4

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Re: Any early retirement fails out there?
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2014, 10:37:27 AM »
I think the key in ER and all of life is to walk toward something, not away from something.  ER implies walking away.

I like that! ^+1

Nord...good post. for the record i didn't mean it was funny in the sense it came across. Never want to see anyone suffer and I agree there was some psychological issue there.

sol

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Re: Any early retirement fails out there?
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2014, 10:52:59 AM »
I would like to see someone who tried the 4% and things didn't work out (either poor returns, unexpected expenses,...) but I am guessing not many of them every come back and talk about it.

Those people are going to arrive in waves.  Failing the 4% test requires a special combination of poor market returns, inflexible lifestyle, and bad timing.  There might be very few such people for a decade or more at a time, and then whole bunches of them all at once.

Unfortunately, that means that looking around and not seeing very many right now isn't a very useful predictive tool for how many such people there will be in the future when you're in the potential pool.

People "fail" at retirement for all kinds of reasons.  Counting on the 4% rule is not in my top five worries about my early retirement.

2527

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Re: Any early retirement fails out there?
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2014, 02:28:11 PM »
Financially, dividends stay fairly constant when the market fluctuates, so the more one's income stream is based on dividends, and not the gradual sale of stock, the stronger the position. 

foobar

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Re: Any early retirement fails out there?
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2014, 03:48:59 PM »
The 4% was more a suggestion that retirement was a somewhat reasonable option than a questioning of the 4% math.  Retiring on 400k with 38k in expenses is doomed to failure. I wonder how many people misjudge spending now that they don't have a job to keep them entertained for 50 hours/week, have bad luck (car accident and medical bills),  and so on. And how many just decide they would rather work.

I would like to see someone who tried the 4% and things didn't work out (either poor returns, unexpected expenses,...) but I am guessing not many of them every come back and talk about it.

Those people are going to arrive in waves.  Failing the 4% test requires a special combination of poor market returns, inflexible lifestyle, and bad timing.  There might be very few such people for a decade or more at a time, and then whole bunches of them all at once.

Unfortunately, that means that looking around and not seeing very many right now isn't a very useful predictive tool for how many such people there will be in the future when you're in the potential pool.

People "fail" at retirement for all kinds of reasons.  Counting on the 4% rule is not in my top five worries about my early retirement.

uppy

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Re: Any early retirement fails out there?
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2014, 04:00:38 PM »
It's disheartening that so many people are able to retire and yet have nothing they actually want to do. Especially hard to hear as a person who struggles to do what I want, but work constantly gets in the way. And I'm looking at retirement in my late 40s at the earliest, if everything goes as planned...

Anyone who can't handle retirement for purely psychological reasons should donate their nest egg to ME! They can have my job. :)

StetsTerhune

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Re: Any early retirement fails out there?
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2014, 04:15:49 PM »
I know of one personally, and I suspect there are many more, who freaked out when the market crashed in 2008. Hard to live on 4% of what you had before you lost 30%. The guy I know ended up ok though, picked up some consulting work for a few years and has been steadily downsizing his lifestyle. Probably better off in the long run that this happened for him at the beginning.

Cassie

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Re: Any early retirement fails out there?
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2014, 05:47:19 PM »
I agree that more ER's are probably psychological then financial. I think that you can think you have planned enough things to do that will keep you busy but the reality is that it does not quite work out that way.  That is what happened to me and within 6 months I was teaching online and building a p.t. consulting business. I am way happier then either working f.t. or being retired full time. I think it will be different for everyone.  I also like that I am still bringing in $ but also still doing volunteer work.

uppy

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Re: Any early retirement fails out there?
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2014, 06:11:16 PM »
I agree that more ER's are probably psychological then financial. I think that you can think you have planned enough things to do that will keep you busy but the reality is that it does not quite work out that way.  That is what happened to me and within 6 months I was teaching online and building a p.t. consulting business. I am way happier then either working f.t. or being retired full time. I think it will be different for everyone.  I also like that I am still bringing in $ but also still doing volunteer work.

As I explain to my GF, who I have had to convince to come on board with this stuff: it's not really about "retiring" per se. (She wants to keep working forever because she loves her job.) It's about being able to do what you want regardless of whether it makes you money or not. It's about freedom.

MissStache

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Re: Any early retirement fails out there?
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2014, 07:12:17 AM »
It's disheartening that so many people are able to retire and yet have nothing they actually want to do. Especially hard to hear as a person who struggles to do what I want, but work constantly gets in the way. And I'm looking at retirement in my late 40s at the earliest, if everything goes as planned...

Anyone who can't handle retirement for purely psychological reasons should donate their nest egg to ME! They can have my job. :)

Ditto.  I can't really imagine wanting to RE for the sole purpose of not wanting to work anymore.  They only reason I want to RE is because work keeps getting in the way of all the other things I want to do. 

wearfannypacks

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Re: Any early retirement fails out there?
« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2014, 10:35:52 AM »
It's disheartening that so many people are able to retire and yet have nothing they actually want to do. Especially hard to hear as a person who struggles to do what I want, but work constantly gets in the way. And I'm looking at retirement in my late 40s at the earliest, if everything goes as planned...

Anyone who can't handle retirement for purely psychological reasons should donate their nest egg to ME! They can have my job. :)

Ditto.  I can't really imagine wanting to RE for the sole purpose of not wanting to work anymore.  They only reason I want to RE is because work keeps getting in the way of all the other things I want to do.

I'm 28, and I'm not FI but I'm essentially in ER to due a disability at 25. I'm on claim with a private disability policy.

Having gone from graduating dental school and busting my butt in a residency, it is strange having so much free time everyday. I can totally see how someone who made the majority of their waking hours about work can find this transition difficult.  It can be isolating when you have free time and other peers don't during the day.  I'm limited physically by what I can do, however I learned with this free time I'm much more fulfilled if I set personal growth goals.

-Learning about 18th century European history
-travel hacking (we've gone on some pretty great trips via credit card bonuses and gaming hotel points)
-since I"m a new mom I spend some time researching child development. We try simple Montessori activities for our son.
-paying down our debt!
-figuring out how to cook cheap healthy meals with my limitations
-reach out to 1 or 2 friends a week

Some of these goals came naturally, but most endeavors took deliberate effort on my part to make happen. I set personal growth goals because it's important to look back at my year and feel I accomplished something. I also feel that even though I'm not "working" I do have work I do everyday.  I have a plan for the day. Whether that's staying on top of bills, researching miles and points for an upcoming trip, booking flights, managing doctor's visits, trying a new recipe, calling and old friend, or completing a book. I still work.

Dr. Doom

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Re: Any early retirement fails out there?
« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2014, 10:51:38 AM »
I think the key in ER and all of life is to walk toward something, not away from something.  ER implies walking away.

While I agree with the sentiment, in practicality, it's tough to achieve.

Let's say you're an engineer.  Most of the engineers I know spend 50+ hours a week actually working, sometimes 70, never fewer than 40 -- and that's not counting commute etc.  Family, exercise, and other chores/obligations quickly absorb any remaining free time.

If you're consistently functioning in this flat-out sprint pace of work, it's very difficult to figure out exactly what you're going to walk toward.  But very easy to say "Not this.  Anything but this nonstop crazytown slavery."

I think at some point you pull the plug anyway, even though you're not 100% sure where you're going.  That's when you have the time available to discover what it is you really want to be walking toward.  You have to feel it (RE) out and grow into it.  I'm not getting all crunchy or anything -- not suggesting you spend two weeks in the darkness of a cave finding yourself.  I'm just saying that for some folks it's very important to walk away from the current life and then reassess.  Part of reassessing should absolutely be managing your free time and setting some goals that you are interested in achieving.  People are always happier with some sense of purpose and direction.  Just because you don't have a day job doesn't mean you shouldn't manage your time to some extent.

If, during the reassessment, you decide that you were happier working and you go back to it -- well, I don't personally consider that an "RE fail."  In my mind, it'd actually be a win, because RE'ing gave you the perspective to see that what you were doing was pretty close to what you want, so you can go back with a better attitude, knowing you made the choice for yourself and it had nothing to do with money.

Edit:  Adding in a missing word.  Good on me.


aclarridge

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Re: Any early retirement fails out there?
« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2014, 11:34:50 AM »
My parents lost the majority of their assets in a very bad investment - essentially due to a lack of diversification. What they thought would be a retirement with plentiful cash is now a bit tighter as they are living off my father's pension.

The great thing is that they are frugal enough that they haven't had to change their lifestyle at all, do not work, and they travel all the time. They've told me that they basically lost my inheritance...if that's true then no harm done, I want to reach "enough" on my own anyway.

nicknageli

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Re: Any early retirement fails out there?
« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2014, 12:27:03 PM »
They've told me that they basically lost my inheritance...if that's true then no harm done, I want to reach "enough" on my own anyway.

I think that's a great attitude!

HattyT

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Re: Any early retirement fails out there?
« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2014, 02:24:37 PM »
About 10 years ago, I'd read an magazine article about a woman who took a "package" from her corporate job, called herself retired (in her 30s I believe) and immediately ramped up spending...had a personal trainer come to her house, adopted a kid, luxury vacations.  She had to go back to work within the year.  My first thought was what a terrible failure.  Yet now I think if we should be so lucky to fail early enough, while we still have our health and our willingness to work, it could be looked at as a learning experience.

When I failed at ER, I had overestimated my income, underestimated my expenses, hadn't been aware of the Safe Withdrawal Rate, or MMM and left work just before the 2008 crash.  I lasted a year and a half until I noticed my stash getting too low for comfort.  Back to work. (different employer)

I'm again at ER.   I track my expenses and income better this time.  I'm inside the 4% Safe Withdrawal Rate.  I was lucky to leave work when the stock market was going through the roof.

This time, I have confidence I would recognize sooner if adjustments were needed.
I remember reading an MMM article with 7 potential action items if the money wasn't enough.
Does anyone else remember it?
He and/or his wife could go back to work full time, or part time.
They could decrease expenses.
They could sell a house.
They could move into a friends basement.
Over half of his potential actions were things I could do if necessary.
MMM is so right, the margins (between expenses to income) get better and better.
ala
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/05/14/first-retire-then-get-rich/

MMM (and you guys and gals of the forum) continues to offer ways for me to increase my badassity.  There are great ideas and inspiration for side (and full time) gigs http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/07/25/50-jobs-over-50000-without-a-degree-part-1/ (shhh, don't tell the Internet Retirement Police).
This time, I'm more confident that my ER will be permanent.

uppy

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Re: Any early retirement fails out there?
« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2014, 03:08:01 PM »
I think there's a big diff. between voluntary and involuntary ER, i.e. wearfannypacks. But as Q_Train mentioned, either can be a great opportunity to discover things you want to do in life.

I'm not sure I've ever had the kind of "real" job many of you have/have had -- thus I've never been committed enough to something in pure "working" life that it would be difficult not to do it. I also tend to think that many (if not most) jobs are somewhat meaningless and soul-sucking, evidence perhaps being the existence and attractiveness of ER. I feel like most personally-meaningful occupations (not to say all, but most -- think of all the millions of garbage men, cubicle slaves, convenience store clerks, bus drivers, etc. etc. etc.) exist outside the workforce. By which I mean they are largely unpaid occupations, commonly called "hobbies."

Not to say those jobs don't have value to society or can't be somewhat rewarding.

Wanderer

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Re: Any early retirement fails out there?
« Reply #30 on: February 06, 2014, 03:28:24 PM »
The great thing is that they are frugal enough that they haven't had to change their lifestyle at all, do not work, and they travel all the time. They've told me that they basically lost my inheritance...if that's true then no harm done, I want to reach "enough" on my own anyway.

I've heard of inheritances before.  Mostly in Victorian novels. 

Tyler

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Re: Any early retirement fails out there?
« Reply #31 on: February 06, 2014, 03:31:10 PM »
I think the key in ER and all of life is to walk toward something, not away from something.  ER implies walking away.

While I agree with the sentiment, in practicality, it's tough to achieve.

Let's say you're an engineer.  Most of the engineers I know spend 50+ hours a week actually working, sometimes 70, never fewer than 40 -- and that's not counting commute etc.  Family, exercise, and other chores/obligations quickly absorb any remaining free time.

If you're consistently functioning in this flat-out sprint pace of work, it's very difficult to figure out exactly what you're going to walk toward.  But very easy to say "Not this.  Anything but this nonstop crazytown slavery."

I think at some point you pull the plug anyway, even though you're not 100% sure where you're going.  That's when you have the time available to discover what it is you really want to be walking toward.  You have to feel it (RE) out and grow into it.  I'm not getting all crunchy or anything -- not suggesting you spend two weeks in the darkness of a cave finding yourself.  I'm just saying that for some folks it's very important to walk away from the current life and then reassess.  Part of reassessing should absolutely be managing your free time and setting some goals that you are interested in achieving.  People are always happier with some sense of purpose and direction.  Just because you don't have a day job doesn't mean you shouldn't manage your time to some extent.

If, during the reassessment, you decide that you were happier working and you go back to it -- well, I don't personally consider that an "RE fail."  In my mind, it'd actually be a win, because RE'ing gave you the perspective to see that what you were doing was pretty close to what you want, so you can go back with a better attitude, knowing you made the choice for yourself and it had nothing to do with money.

Edit:  Adding in a missing word.  Good on me.

+1.  It's kinda like being in a bad relationship -- sometimes it's better to just cut it off and be alone for a little while to figure out what you really want and need in a relationship.  Only leaving when you have something else lined up doesn't always work out so well, especially when emotions are messing with your head.

That said, people generally crave purpose over time.  So acknowledging that you eventually may want to find something to drive you without using the job as a lazy default is a healthy growing process.

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Re: Any early retirement fails out there?
« Reply #32 on: February 06, 2014, 04:10:27 PM »
I think the key in ER and all of life is to walk toward something, not away from something.  ER implies walking away.

While I agree with the sentiment, in practicality, it's tough to achieve.

Let's say you're an engineer.  Most of the engineers I know spend 50+ hours a week actually working, sometimes 70, never fewer than 40 -- and that's not counting commute etc.  Family, exercise, and other chores/obligations quickly absorb any remaining free time.

If you're consistently functioning in this flat-out sprint pace of work, it's very difficult to figure out exactly what you're going to walk toward.  But very easy to say "Not this.  Anything but this nonstop crazytown slavery."

I think at some point you pull the plug anyway, even though you're not 100% sure where you're going.  That's when you have the time available to discover what it is you really want to be walking toward.  You have to feel it (RE) out and grow into it.  I'm not getting all crunchy or anything -- not suggesting you spend two weeks in the darkness of a cave finding yourself.  I'm just saying that for some folks it's very important to walk away from the current life and then reassess.  Part of reassessing should absolutely be managing your free time and setting some goals that you are interested in achieving.  People are always happier with some sense of purpose and direction.  Just because you don't have a day job doesn't mean you shouldn't manage your time to some extent.

If, during the reassessment, you decide that you were happier working and you go back to it -- well, I don't personally consider that an "RE fail."  In my mind, it'd actually be a win, because RE'ing gave you the perspective to see that what you were doing was pretty close to what you want, so you can go back with a better attitude, knowing you made the choice for yourself and it had nothing to do with money.

Edit:  Adding in a missing word.  Good on me.

+1.  It's kinda like being in a bad relationship -- sometimes it's better to just cut it off and be alone for a little while to figure out what you really want and need in a relationship.  Only leaving when you have something else lined up doesn't always work out so well, especially when emotions are messing with your head.

That said, people generally crave purpose over time.  So acknowledging that you eventually may want to find something to drive you without using the job as a lazy default is a healthy growing process.

+2..or whatever you cool kids say. But this hit home for me.

I am not ER, no where near it, but i did quit my high stress over demanding career to have kids. I am now a stay at home mom and the transition was way way way harder than i thought. Keep going to this sucky ass job or stay home and wipe poopy butts. No brainer, right? It's been 5 years (only found mmm about a year ago) and now i'm more confused than ever because a FIRE person at least knows they have (or thinks they have) enough money. But when you don't have enough, you're faced with should i go back to help out (financially) or stay home because you're kids are only babies once.

Sorry, i know i always get sidetracked on threads, and sorry for my random thoughts (hits hand on head, duh, this is why you started a journal)
« Last Edit: February 06, 2014, 04:12:35 PM by Mazzinator »

Cassie

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Re: Any early retirement fails out there?
« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2014, 05:12:07 PM »
I stayed home until my youngest went to school and never, ever regretted it.  I still had many years to work.

kkbmustang

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Re: Any early retirement fails out there?
« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2014, 08:43:20 PM »
It's disheartening that so many people are able to retire and yet have nothing they actually want to do. Especially hard to hear as a person who struggles to do what I want, but work constantly gets in the way. And I'm looking at retirement in my late 40s at the earliest, if everything goes as planned...

Anyone who can't handle retirement for purely psychological reasons should donate their nest egg to ME! They can have my job. :)

Ditto.  I can't really imagine wanting to RE for the sole purpose of not wanting to work anymore.  They only reason I want to RE is because work keeps getting in the way of all the other things I want to do.

I'm 28, and I'm not FI but I'm essentially in ER to due a disability at 25. I'm on claim with a private disability policy.

Having gone from graduating dental school and busting my butt in a residency, it is strange having so much free time everyday. I can totally see how someone who made the majority of their waking hours about work can find this transition difficult.  It can be isolating when you have free time and other peers don't during the day.  I'm limited physically by what I can do, however I learned with this free time I'm much more fulfilled if I set personal growth goals.

-Learning about 18th century European history
-travel hacking (we've gone on some pretty great trips via credit card bonuses and gaming hotel points)
-since I"m a new mom I spend some time researching child development. We try simple Montessori activities for our son.
-paying down our debt!
-figuring out how to cook cheap healthy meals with my limitations
-reach out to 1 or 2 friends a week

Some of these goals came naturally, but most endeavors took deliberate effort on my part to make happen. I set personal growth goals because it's important to look back at my year and feel I accomplished something. I also feel that even though I'm not "working" I do have work I do everyday.  I have a plan for the day. Whether that's staying on top of bills, researching miles and points for an upcoming trip, booking flights, managing doctor's visits, trying a new recipe, calling and old friend, or completing a book. I still work.

Just totally agreeing with you here. After 15 years as a tax attorney, I suffered a spinal injury that prevents me from sitting at a desk for the 60-70 hours a week my former job required. It was difficult to transition from that to an injury and surgery after surgery after surgery and being less physically independent.

On_a_slow_boat

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Re: Any early retirement fails out there?
« Reply #35 on: February 06, 2014, 11:19:14 PM »
A early retirement failure happened to a close family friend. He was a chef/restaurant owner by profession.

Back in the late 80's / early 90's he sold his restaurant and purchased apartments in Hartford Ct. His plan was to use the rental income from the apartments to live on for the rest of his life.

From the way the story was told to me, less than desirable tenants moved into the apartments. They proceeded to cause lots of damage, not pay rent, and it was difficult for him to get the people out.

He ended up taking a huge loss on the place, then working for other people as a chef until his 70's.

Very sad story, but it speaks a lot about :
1)diversifying your income streams
2)doing research before you get involved in something you don't understand

the fixer

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Re: Any early retirement fails out there?
« Reply #36 on: February 06, 2014, 11:29:16 PM »
I remember reading an MMM article with 7 potential action items if the money wasn't enough.
Does anyone else remember it?
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/17/its-all-about-the-safety-margin/

Thanks for sharing your experience! It's interesting to hear about this stuff.

countdown

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Re: Any early retirement fails out there?
« Reply #37 on: February 07, 2014, 09:05:48 PM »
A coworker went ER in 2010 at age 39. He had a convincing spiel about how he was planning to day trade as a hobby for a little fun and extra income. He was back consulting a year later.
2nd, a close fam member. Retired at 55 (not super early) w/db pension, but took it as an 8-year payout then took early SS, because you never know when the company/the govt might take it all away. Not yet a fail, but there are still decades to come!

geekette

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Re: Any early retirement fails out there?
« Reply #38 on: February 07, 2014, 11:09:01 PM »
I'm tempted to start a journal titled with those famous last words "Hey y'all, watch this!" because we seem to be sliding into ER after a layoff last summer.  We've easily cut our expenses, thanks largely to this site, and number crunching leads us to believe that we'll be fine.  Assuming the market doesn't crash and stay down, the ACA isn't repealed, or some other unforeseen calamity befalls us.

I think it would be a pretty damn boring journal, though.  You know, unless something horrid happens - then y'all could point and laugh.

dragoncar

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Re: Any early retirement fails out there?
« Reply #39 on: February 08, 2014, 12:16:22 AM »
I'm tempted to start a journal titled with those famous last words "Hey y'all, watch this!" because we seem to be sliding into ER after a layoff last summer.  We've easily cut our expenses, thanks largely to this site, and number crunching leads us to believe that we'll be fine.  Assuming the market doesn't crash and stay down, the ACA isn't repealed, or some other unforeseen calamity befalls us.

I think it would be a pretty damn boring journal, though.  You know, unless something horrid happens - then y'all could point and laugh.

"Hold my beer"

quilter

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Re: Any early retirement fails out there?
« Reply #40 on: February 08, 2014, 06:21:41 AM »
Holy cow, I remember hocus. Very sad story

We had a friend who was an er fail. When. He really did not have enough to retire, and was upside down on his house. He decided he was going to flip houses as a moneymaking "hobby." He greatly exceeded his budget, and has dug himself such a deep hole he is now back to work.  He could not find a job close by so commutes over an hour each way. One of his downfalls was when he was not working he started drinking early in the day and drank like a fish. He ended up divorced and since his wife was basically a SAHM he is paying a big spousal support. She ended up losing the house. To our surprise a woman pursued him and eventually married him, and he is quickly ruining her finances.  Naturally, he has also lost his old friends as we have nothing in common with him.

2527

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Re: Any early retirement fails out there?
« Reply #41 on: February 08, 2014, 10:50:56 AM »
There are two kinds of failure (at my age fail is still a verb, not a noun).

One is the failure that comes about because a person doesn't have an interesting life outside of work or they have trouble with all the unstructured time.  I guess I'm not going to apply a "should" to that.  If the best thing going in a person's life is work, I guess that's the way it is.

The other is the failure the comes about because a person doesn't have the finances to sustain not working.  I suppose that is only a big problem if they have trouble returning to work at a level they are satisfied with, which can certainly happen.


anisotropy

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Re: Any early retirement fails out there?
« Reply #42 on: February 15, 2014, 01:19:19 PM »
Ya the idea of ER is both alluring and terrifying to us. We would love to use the free time to travel and enjoy life while we are still young, but then what? We are both quite lazy and lack the attention span to keep a hobby long term.  She paints and sews once in awhile but that's it. I surf the web and trade stocks in very small amount for fun; i could always revert back to what i did in my early 20s and play video games all day but it's not really something I want to do....

We also feel very insecure about the future. Conventional wisdom would tell us that our stash is more than enough to sustain our expenses if we were to take the path of ER today.   But...... what if?

Now I am scared lol

Cheddar Stacker

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Re: Any early retirement fails out there?
« Reply #43 on: February 15, 2014, 01:30:53 PM »
anisotropy - find some seasonal work. Once you're ready to RE use the free time to travel or do whatever. If you're worried about boredom and/or spending all your stache, look into doing something for 2-5 months/year. Make enough to support 20-50% of your spending which will make the stache last longer, and it might keep you from getting into a lazy funk (I'm quite lazy myself when I want to be).

Nords

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Re: Any early retirement fails out there?
« Reply #44 on: February 15, 2014, 02:39:17 PM »
Ya the idea of ER is both alluring and terrifying to us. We would love to use the free time to travel and enjoy life while we are still young, but then what? We are both quite lazy and lack the attention span to keep a hobby long term.  She paints and sews once in awhile but that's it. I surf the web and trade stocks in very small amount for fun; i could always revert back to what i did in my early 20s and play video games all day but it's not really something I want to do....

We also feel very insecure about the future. Conventional wisdom would tell us that our stash is more than enough to sustain our expenses if we were to take the path of ER today.   But...... what if?

Now I am scared lol
Take a look at Ernie Zelinski's "Get-A-Life Tree":
http://bestretirementquotes.blogspot.com/2009/10/get-life-tree-great-retirement-planning.html

Cassie

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Re: Any early retirement fails out there?
« Reply #45 on: February 15, 2014, 03:21:06 PM »
I read that book and it was really good. Everyone has to figure out for themselves what will make them happy and sometimes we don't know until we try it. False starts into retirement are ok as long as we use that info to make things better for ourselves & make improvements instead of just giving up.  Some people have a million hobbies & some none.  I think the reason I still want to work even though I am 59 is because due to raising kids and obtaining 4 college degrees I was a lot older before I got into the work force so am not sick of what I am doing.  However, was sick of f.t. work for someone else. P.T. for myself just right.  Everyone is different and will take a different path. My Mom retired at 59 and never worked again. She was far too busy with hobbies, volunteer work, etc. Well into her 80's I had trouble catching her at home so we could talk on the phone. She had a great life she loved.

SnackDog

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Re: Any early retirement fails out there?
« Reply #46 on: February 15, 2014, 04:06:11 PM »
ER failure is real and it does happen, so one must plan for it and have mitigations in place.  The easiest one is to work longer so (1)  the cushion is larger and (2) the cushion is built up under the easiest and most profitable scenario (your current job).  Another is to spend minimally in retirement to improve financial standing.  Another is to be ready to return to work at any time or to sell assets, if required. 

My grandfather was a high school principal and retired in 1965, the worst year on record to retire as the market was slow and inflation raged.  But he had been a frugal man all his life and was in retirement as well.  He would splurge on funny things, like always flying first class, but otherwise had minimal operating expenses.   He lived to be 99 and still had a quite a bit in the bank, as well as a paid off house, etc.    When I say he was frugal, I mean minimal eating out and a miniscule budget for dumb stuff like clothes, cars, etc.  He did let a salesman talk him into a Chevy Nova SS in about 1972, which was pretty exciting for us all, but he drove it at least 10 years.  He managed to build a house for his sister when she got old and to pay medical expenses for his sick wife.  He also was pretty generous with his  grandchildren when it came to education.

Nords

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Re: Any early retirement fails out there?
« Reply #47 on: February 15, 2014, 05:58:45 PM »
But he had been a frugal man all his life and was in retirement as well.  He would splurge on funny things, like always flying first class, but otherwise had minimal operating expenses.   
I completely understand.

SwordGuy

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Re: Any early retirement fails out there?
« Reply #48 on: February 15, 2014, 06:27:46 PM »
Let's say you're an engineer.  Most of the engineers I know spend 50+ hours a week actually working, sometimes 70, never fewer than 40 -- and that's not counting commute etc.  Family, exercise, and other chores/obligations quickly absorb any remaining free time.

Back in the 90s I came to an important realization.   I was paid a salary to work 40 hours per week.  I was not paid a salary to work 50, 60 or 70 hours per week.

So I made a promise to my self that - other than an occasional true emergency (in which case I would pitch in as needed) - I would only work more than 40 hours per week if I got something out of it.

. Learning something that would make me more marketable qualified.
. Improving our software development process qualified (see above).
. Teaching a coworker something (see above).

After I hit the 40 hour/week mark, I was on my time.  I worked on my terms or I went home.   I was unwilling to work more than 40 hours / week just to tread water and stay where I was.

Did I work more than 40 hours / week?  Sure.  Some of that was writing technical articles or conference papers.  (For which I got paid or got to go to conferences for free.)  Some of that was writing a technical book or editing user group technical publications.  (Which got me lots of networking contacts for getting a better job - or a job in a hurry if I ever needed one.)

But because I was doing those additional hours on my terms, I was more energized, not more sapped.  Because I was learning more things at a faster rate than those who were treading water, my productivity, usefulness to the company and salary went up compared to most of my coworkers. 

There aren't many true emergencies, by the way.

If management has scheduled emergencies all the time, it's time to stop being an enabler. :)

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Any early retirement fails out there?
« Reply #49 on: February 15, 2014, 06:34:43 PM »
I'm an ER failure because I'm failing to ER.  I'm even blogging about how much sense it makes for me to retire, and yet I feel further away from my toes in the sand than ever!  I had a really great week at work, I have a 3-day week next week, and there are all these great blogs that ER people write that I can live vicariously through...  I worry I'm going to be stuck working until they kick me out, which I keep thinking they will do sooner or later... but then I get inspired, put in a killer week, and knock their socks off.