Frugal fatigue

[pipercat]

I even find I have a strange thing with vacations.  I get this sinking feeling as soon as it starts, because once it starts, it will soon be over, and I hate that feeling.  As the vacation progresses, I find myself calculating ratios each day of how much has passed to how much is left.  It's quite the opposite of living in the present, this constant calculation of past to future. 

I do the same thing!  I even do it with weekends.  Sometimes I feel a little like Eeyore thinking that way.  That's why I question whether some folks are just hardwired to be Mustachian.  I don't think of myself as a spendthrift by any means, but I do think (especially in the beginning) that my frugal muscles may tire faster than others.

[Cheddar Stacker]

Bosses like to hear "efficient" or "maximizing resources" or "practicing good stewardship," not "easiest" even though I meant exactly the same thing.

I've also been referring to my laziness as efficiency, but not just to bosses. It's a nice justification for just about anything, and you're right, it sounds much better than lazy.

[daverobev]

I'm definitely feeling something now. Probably the long, cold Ontario winter (this'll be my fourth, and it's much worse than the previous ones!). But more on Nords' lines - I'm 'retired' sorta, but still working for a friend, so I know I have extra money coming in over the next few months.. and I'm shoving it all at 'investment debt' - ie debt that is making me more than it's costing me.

I keep looking at the Win 8 tablets... as my Playbook is driving me crazy (and I hate iPads) - the PB is slow, and the 'better browser' is crash-prone. But I don't want to just get another electronic device.. I'd get something that replaces my laptop AND my tablet... but to do that, it'd cost me $1k for a Dell Venue Pro 11 (i3 version, with dock and keyboard). Aaand.. yeah, just don't want to spend that.

We were supposed to go on holiday a few weeks back but our baby's birth certificate only just showed up, and we have appointments and stuff in the next week. So I'm grumpy about that.

I guess it's still, partially, switching from working to pay off debt, to living on passive income. And it being f**king freezing outside... Yeah.. makes me want to have some fun tinkering with something. Rebuild a computer? No point on the computers I have though, they all work fine. Vintage computer stuff?

Dunno. I'm down in the dumps, anyway. And I just *can't* spend money on junk in the hope it'll provide fun.

What I'm mulling is class B/camper van, or touring car - some kind of hobby, seeing the continent. "Not just a waste of money". But I really don't want to get into being a home mechanic too much - we don't have a garage, and spending the cash on getting one put in seems excessive, just so I can buy a load of tools.

I cannot wait to get going in the garden!!

Frugal vs cheap, that's my problem.

[Nords]

I didn't mean I thought there was anything wrong with the game metaphor; I've used it myself, and I think it's very good way to be encouraging. Maybe Nords will chime in here, but I'll go out on a limb and speculate that he doesn't often think of it as a game himself -- I just don't think that's sustainable for more than a few years. Could just be me, though.

I think gamification is a great description of being frugal, and sustainable for decades. 

We feel as if we're "winning" when we can use something that otherwise would go to waste (like the recycle plastic bags that Wal-Mart shares) and when we go trash-picking on the night before bulk pickup.  I feel like I'm winning whenever I can send something to Craigslist or Goodwill after we're done with it.

Part of it is also because we're hypercompetitive and happy to find relatively harmless ways to indulge in it.

Frugality can always be more challenging, but it also has to be fulfilling.

[Rural]

I didn't mean I thought there was anything wrong with the game metaphor; I've used it myself, and I think it's very good way to be encouraging. Maybe Nords will chime in here, but I'll go out on a limb and speculate that he doesn't often think of it as a game himself -- I just don't think that's sustainable for more than a few years. Could just be me, though.

I think gamification is a great description of being frugal, and sustainable for decades. 

We feel as if we're "winning" when we can use something that otherwise would go to waste (like the recycle plastic bags that Wal-Mart shares) and when we go trash-picking on the night before bulk pickup.  I feel like I'm winning whenever I can send something to Craigslist or Goodwill after we're done with it.

Part of it is also because we're hypercompetitive and happy to find relatively harmless ways to indulge in it.

Sounds like it's all just a matter of varying outlooks, then. Part of the difference is probably degrees of competitiveness like you pointed out. I hadn't thought of it in relation to considering frugality a "game" or not, but I'm profoundly noncompetitive (which my husband simply doesn't understand).

[Ozstache]

I read a short story by Robert Heinlein called something like "The Laziest Man Alive." It was about a guy who was really a relentless optimizer a la MMM and it really stuck with me about how life choices could have a huge effect on the amount of energy (money) you have to put in.

I've read this too and was quite surprised at the parallels it draws with my own military life and early days of ER, even down to me giving up wearing shoes most of the time too! It's a worthwhile read.

[arebelspy]

It is called "The Tale of the Man Who Was Too Lazy to Fail."

It is in "Time Enough for Love."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Enough_for_Love

I've never read it, but was searching it out based on your recommendations.  In doing so, I found this brief review of it, written by a very Mustachian individual (you can probably tell by the name of the blog).  Well worth spending two minutes to read, whether you've read the Heinlein story or not.

http://livingstingy.blogspot.com/2010/07/tale-of-man-who-was-too-lazy-to-fail.html

[nicknageli]

I even find I have a strange thing with vacations.  I get this sinking feeling as soon as it starts, because once it starts, it will soon be over, and I hate that feeling.  As the vacation progresses, I find myself calculating ratios each day of how much has passed to how much is left.  It's quite the opposite of living in the present, this constant calculation of past to future. 

I do the same thing!  I even do it with weekends.  Sometimes I feel a little like Eeyore thinking that way.  That's why I question whether some folks are just hardwired to be Mustachian.  I don't think of myself as a spendthrift by any means, but I do think (especially in the beginning) that my frugal muscles may tire faster than others.

This cracked me up.  This describes how I approach and think about vacations also.

[happy]

I think gamification is a great description of being frugal, and sustainable for decades. 

Glad you've road tested this for so long. I was hoping my only 2 year old mind-hack wasn't going to wear out.

[Nords]

I read a short story by Robert Heinlein called something like "The Laziest Man Alive." It was about a guy who was really a relentless optimizer a la MMM and it really stuck with me about how life choices could have a huge effect on the amount of energy (money) you have to put in.

I've read this too and was quite surprised at the parallels it draws with my own military life and early days of ER, even down to me giving up wearing shoes most of the time too! It's a worthwhile read.

It is called "The Tale of the Man Who Was Too Lazy to Fail."

It is in "Time Enough for Love."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Enough_for_Love

I've never read it, but was searching it out based on your recommendations.  In doing so, I found this brief review of it, written by a very Mustachian individual (you can probably tell by the name of the blog).  Well worth spending two minutes to read, whether you've read the Heinlein story or not.
http://livingstingy.blogspot.com/2010/07/tale-of-man-who-was-too-lazy-to-fail.html

I remember that story!  As I recall, the protagonist just wanted to sit in a hammock all day and read books.  He managed to get promoted to admiral at retirement, and he even managed to find a stress-related disability that paid him extra.

[Ozstache]

I read a short story by Robert Heinlein called something like "The Laziest Man Alive." It was about a guy who was really a relentless optimizer a la MMM and it really stuck with me about how life choices could have a huge effect on the amount of energy (money) you have to put in.

I've read this too and was quite surprised at the parallels it draws with my own military life and early days of ER, even down to me giving up wearing shoes most of the time too! It's a worthwhile read.

It is called "The Tale of the Man Who Was Too Lazy to Fail."

It is in "Time Enough for Love."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Enough_for_Love

I've never read it, but was searching it out based on your recommendations.  In doing so, I found this brief review of it, written by a very Mustachian individual (you can probably tell by the name of the blog).  Well worth spending two minutes to read, whether you've read the Heinlein story or not.
http://livingstingy.blogspot.com/2010/07/tale-of-man-who-was-too-lazy-to-fail.html

I remember that story!  As I recall, the protagonist just wanted to sit in a hammock all day and read books.  He managed to get promoted to admiral at retirement, and he even managed to find a stress-related disability that paid him extra.

While I earned my military pension fair and square, I did arrange to skydive the day before I got out of the services such that if I did happen to die my wife's residual pension entitlement was substantially more than if I was out. That's not quite in the same league of bending the rules as this fellow though!

[Rural]

I think gamification is a great description of being frugal, and sustainable for decades. 

Glad you've road tested this for so long. I was hoping my only 2 year old mind-hack wasn't going to wear out.

I'm actually glad, too. I got the sense I'd worried you, and that wasn't what I was going for at all!:-)

[Elaine]

I've wondered about how hard wired MMM tendencies are too. My brother and I grew up poor. He makes probably four times what I make now, but I doubt he has as much money saved/invested as I do. Even as a teenager he was obsessed with name brands, and what other people had. He wouldn't wear used clothes or non-name brands- now of course he's into even more expensive things (rolex, prada, etc.). I always found something I liked at any store my Mom took me to. I never worried about what other people thought. It never bothered me to not fit in or be different. It's interesting because in some ways we are similar- both introverted, love to read, not many close friends but good relationships, like working out, smart, but in this one way we are total opposites. Status and the way his life looks seem inextricably tied to his feelings of self-worth. I feel lucky not to be that way. For me frugality and finding joy (stoicism) has only become more apparent and supported as I have become acquainted with Buddhism. The basis of which, for me, is gratitude. If you have gratitude for what you have you don't compare your life to others. You don't want for what you don't have, you appreciate what you do have.

[MrFancypants]

I stated this in another thread on a similar subject, but my feelings are that if you're experiencing "frugal fatigue" then there is a possibility that you're depriving yourself of an item or activity that genuinely brings you joy and happiness.  In my mind, that's not the way to live.  Being frugal is good when the things you're cutting or spending less money on weren't enhancing your life anyway, but you should never remove your passions from your life just because they require a monetary investment.

[Nords]

I've wondered about how hard wired MMM tendencies are too.

Everybody's hard-wired for something, but that's not always a good thing.  Look at Bill Gates and Warren Buffett, who are borderline Aspergers in their particular circles of competence.  Marilu Henner and a few others have perfect recall memory, but that appears to also make them OCD and difficult to live with (let alone difficult to procreate with). 

I think culture is equally important.  If you've worked or lived in a place where frugality is the norm, even important, then you'll adapt (or leave).  If you're in a culture of conspicuous consumption then that's what you'll do (or be driven away). 

The biggest difference is that frugality is a survival skill while consumption is a handicap.  It's a clear example of survivor bias...

[sheepstache]

I was thinking about the place for "purpose" in all this and my usual take on it is that frugality is not a means to an end but rather a purpose in itself.  But based on what everyone in this thread has written I was thinking about it a bit more and may have changed my thinking.  Well, this and the what if you strike it rich / what if money were no object discussions.

Not spending money would be more difficult for me if ER weren't a goal.  While saving money is hardwired into me a bit, I'm not so money-oriented that I would Scrooge-McDuck-like hoard money solely for the purpose of owning vast sums of it.  It would therefore be sitting around as an un-used resource.  Which would drive me nuts.  Without any better plan, it would certainly seem rational to me to try spending it on various things in the hopes of increasing my happiness.  (Some of this must be personality.  Some people are hard-wired to believe there must be something better than the status quo or to simply want thrills.)  It wouldn't be the usual consumerist trap because it would be very little cost to me: I'd have no other use for the money.  In such circumstances, not spending the money would require effort which might lead to fatigue. 

However, now that I have ER in mind as a goal, it takes minimal effort to channel the resources towards that goal.

[Albert]

I've wondered about how hard wired MMM tendencies are too.

Everybody's hard-wired for something, but that's not always a good thing.  Look at Bill Gates and Warren Buffett, who are borderline Aspergers in their particular circles of competence.  Marilu Henner and a few others have perfect recall memory, but that appears to also make them OCD and difficult to live with (let alone difficult to procreate with). 

I think culture is equally important.  If you've worked or lived in a place where frugality is the norm, even important, then you'll adapt (or leave).  If you're in a culture of conspicuous consumption then that's what you'll do (or be driven away). 

The biggest difference is that frugality is a survival skill while consumption is a handicap.  It's a clear example of survivor bias...

Is there some reason to believe that frugal people have more kids than average? If not then what you are writing is not true...

[SAHD]

I totally understand Frugal Fatigue.  When you place yourself on a budget be it big or small you are consciously or unconsciously "pricing" out every purchase or activity.  Also since being a MMM follower  is also about doing more with less, be it less soap or less water or less driving or less what ever, we are in a constant state of awareness of how and what we are doing affects our budgets and the world around us.  This state of mind fits perfectly for some people and can be an emotional drain for others.  And if you are surrounded by people that do not follow the MMM philosophy it only makes it harder.

[Jamesqf]

Is there some reason to believe that frugal people have more kids than average? If not then what you are writing is not true...

But reproductive/evolutionary success is not as simple as who has the most offspring - otherwise codfish would rule the Earth :-)

[arebelspy]

I totally understand Frugal Fatigue.  When you place yourself on a budget be it big or small you are consciously or unconsciously "pricing" out every purchase or activity. 

Okay...

As stated earlier though, we, for example, don't use a budget.  We buy everything we want.

There is nothing limited, or priced out.  Only things we want and don't want (the latter we buy, the former we don't).

Yes, if you're depriving yourself you may get frugality fatigue.  But I would argue that once you have the right mindset, it isn't a thing.

(See: conversation earlier in the thread.)

:)

[Noodle]

I'm definitely feeling something now. Probably the long, cold Ontario winter (this'll be my fourth, and it's much worse than the previous ones!). But more on Nords' lines - I'm 'retired' sorta, but still working for a friend, so I know I have extra money coming in over the next few months.. and I'm shoving it all at 'investment debt' - ie debt that is making me more than it's costing me.

Dunno. I'm down in the dumps, anyway. And I just *can't* spend money on junk in the hope it'll provide fun.

Frugal vs cheap, that's my problem.

I've also been thinking about this particular post, and I would call this "life fatigue" rather than "frugal fatigue." Some months life just sucks (having a bit of that myself) which happens to all, Mustachian or not. Of course, if pursuing frugal goals then the challenge is not to be tempted to spend money to fix the problem...especially since there a lot of things going into the situation other than finances. I try to find something that is an unusual treat in terms of time or effort but not money-focused (my mom used to serve ice cream for dinner every once in awhile in similar cases) and that always cheers me up. Hope it all perks up soon.

[happy]

I totally understand Frugal Fatigue.  When you place yourself on a budget be it big or small you are consciously or unconsciously "pricing" out every purchase or activity. 

Okay...

As stated earlier though, we, for example, don't use a budget.  We buy everything we want.

There is nothing limited, or priced out.  Only things we want and don't want (the latter we buy, the former we don't).

Yes, if you're depriving yourself you may get frugality fatigue.  But I would argue that once you have the right mindset, it isn't a thing.

(See: conversation earlier in the thread.)

:)

I wonder if you could share with us how you arrived at "not wanting much"? Or, if that is a natural state for you ie you didn't have to make it happen, any wisdom you might have for us.

Just to share where I think I am on this journey. Whilst I look back over my life and see "seeds of frugality", I did not have any role models/ internets forums etc, and whilst I'm a bit of an independent thinker, was also immersed in the values of those around me.

So, I can honestly say all my life I've known that cars are not my love in life. I just want a sturdy reliable practical car that will take me from A to B with the minimum of fuss/expense. Despite knowing this in my heart, I allowed myself to believe that "physicians are supposed to drive fancy cars," and that "if I don't have a fancy car, I'm not really a successful physician".  I have to say I never really had a fancy car, but aspired to have one, or at least felt I "should have one" and felt consumption envy/jealousy when others had them. I'd see a Merc/Beamer whatever and feel a pang of car-lust/jealousy.

Then for a while I owned the fact that cars weren't my thing, but still felt the pang. Then I went through a phase where, when I felt the pang, I would remind my self why driving such a car *for me*, would be stupid. I even  started to say hateful things  in my head, like "look at that sucker, driving that fancy pants car, thinks she's/he's so hot but actually she's/he's dumb  and has no idea."  Nowadays I am pretty well neutral about the whole thing.  "A Porsche? meh, not my thing, but maybe its theirs".  The move from negative thoughts to neutral is important, since it uses up no energy, hence avoiding frugal fatigue.  I got there I think, by allowing myself to really honour that truth I knew all along, that my self-worth, and personhood was not defined by the superficial accumulation of stuff, especially "exclusive" stuff , and, by practicing these thought processes.

So am I on the right track? anyone else got ideas?

(apologies to those for whom cars are really their thing, they're just not mine)

[arebelspy]

I wonder if you could share with us how you arrived at "not wanting much"? Or, if that is a natural state for you ie you didn't have to make it happen, any wisdom you might have for us.

Lots of thinking about what was important to me, and developing myself as a person.

When you start out, everything seems important. I have a friend who spends money leasing a new car, because she wants it.  And she gets constant mani/pedis, because it's important to her.  And having her hair dyed.  And vacations.  And this.  And that.

The problem is, she doesn't know what is important to her because she doesn't know who she is.  She's in a constant identity crisis.

When you do know who you are, you will be able to clearly decide what is, and isn't important to you.  Suddenly there's a lot less that is important.  You just don't want it anymore.  It's not even something you think about.

Spending to impress someone else, for example, all falls under this category.  Spending to do X hobby or Y activity, when you end up not even enjoying it or giving up shortly thereafter, is another example.

You can still explore and try new things, but it won't be in a manner of "I must spend lots of money on this, because it's who I am."

Money and objects aren't needed to define you, so you don't crave them.

[happy]

Excellent!

[LibraTraci]

I stated this in another thread on a similar subject, but my feelings are that if you're experiencing "frugal fatigue" then there is a possibility that you're depriving yourself of an item or activity that genuinely brings you joy and happiness.

I kind of agree, and kind of disagree because there's definitely a perception element in the mix.  How about this: 

If you're experiencing frugal fatigue then there is a possibility that you're depriving yourself of an item or activity that you view as being capable of bringing you joy and happiness.  If there are things that we build up in our minds as being important and necessary, and then tell ourselves that our finances don't permit us to purchase them, then over time we will (of course!) feel a growing sense of being shortchanged in life, unfairly deprived of the good things in life. 

And from that perspective you could say that all those BMWs you're not buying and all those massages you're not getting are really wearing you down -- you don't feel there's any joy in life and have to loosen the reins and spend a little.  You're in a total state of frugal fatigue and spending is the answer!  :)

And, a somewhat related observation--isn't it so interesting that when a family gets their electricity turned off for lack of payment, or gets their car repossessed, it is this *major* low point in life, barely tolerable and certainly extreme deprivation.  And a couple hundred miles away, there are Amish families that never had their houses wired for electricity in the first place, and have never driven a car a day in their lives.  And you don't see the Amish running around talking about their frugal fatigue! 

So yeah, if you assume that some products or services are important and necessary for your well-being, then you are screwed if you should have to go without.  If you see those same products and services as being completely unnecessary for the person you want to be and how you want to live, then you aren't screwed at all.   

[MrFancypants]

And from that perspective you could say that all those BMWs you're not buying and all those massages you're not getting are really wearing you down -- you don't feel there's any joy in life and have to loosen the reins and spend a little.  You're in a total state of frugal fatigue and spending is the answer!  :)

It isn't that spending is the answer, it's just that finding a way to enjoy [thingyoulove] is important to maintain a happy state of being.  Unfortunately life isn't free, and occasionally that means spending money to acquire [thingyoulove].

A fair example would be my wife, who is a musician.  At some point in the relatively near future we'll probably spend a couple thousand on equipment, because I don't know how to actually build a guitar/amp from scratch.

Also, regarding massages, if they do in fact make you feel physically better, you should absolutely pay to get them.  Feeling physically well enhances every area of your life and in some cases, massages are even recommended as a medical "procedure" to fight pain.

[tariskat]

+1 for massage.  I'll gleefully drop 45$ for 60 minutes if it means the knot in my shoulder that has been a near-constant presence for the last 4 years of grad school will go away for a few weeks and let me concentrate.

[lexie2000]

I guess I do suffer from frugality fatigue, but not in the traditional sense.  My problem is that I really dislike shopping.    When I purchase anything, I want it to be at a high enough quality that it will last, I want to really "like" the item (this especially is true for items that you normally would keep for over a decade or more like furniture and cars; but applies to almost anything), and I don't want to pay more than I believe the item is really worth.  When I do find something that I like (which often is difficult), if it costs a little more than I had in my mind to pay, I will pay it just so that I don't have to shop anymore. 

The more expensive the item, the more grueling the process is for me because I am less willing to compromise on price.

Right now, I really need to shop for new jeans.  Jeans are a staple in my daily wardrobe.  I bought (6) pair on clearance about (8) years ago (found quality that I liked at a good price, so I went for it) and one by one each pair is sprouting a hole and has to be put in the "only good for yard work" pile.  I have a really hard time finding jeans that fit me properly and I HATE trying on clothes, so I am dreading this.  I just thought of something; I have no clue how much jeans even cost!!   

[Thegoblinchief]

I get frugal fatigue because we're in hair on fire mode and I'm the one who has to say no to the kids and wife on a regular basis.

That said, gratitude plays a HUGE role. My kids, while they're disappointed that we can't buy or do certain things, get reinforced to be grateful for what we have. My oldest (7) is just starting to get it, and sometimes says the most spontaneously profound things about what she's happy to have.

My wife and I had a long conversation the other night about how grateful we are for our tiny house. She's really wanted another kids for a couple years now but we keep pushing it off so that (for once) we can be in a better financial position when we have a kid. But she shocked the hell out of me when she said she was willing to put our bed down in the dark, spider-infested basement just so we weren't putting 4 kids in a bedroom. We even talked about going Japanese style and having a roll-out futon in the living room to not waste space in the daytime.

I spent many months before discovering Mustachianism focusing on how grateful I was for what we had. When I discovered "A Guide to the Good Life" through MMM, that was a lightning bolt for me. Much like the author, I'm too analytical for Zen, but Stoicism really speaks to me.

[happy]

I get frugal fatigue because we're in hair on fire mode and I'm the one who has to say no to the kids and wife on a regular basis.

Commiserations, I can imagine this sucks. I find it the hardest thing to say no to my kids. With the passing of time I'm getting less guilty about it, and they are adapting.  I found some free wood in the street yesterday. Previously the kids would shrink down in their seats and try to disappear in embarrassment when I stop to pick up free wood. Yesterday DD got out and helped me, no complaints at all.

[Thegoblinchief]

My kids are pretty used to it. At their age, they think the no is either "we don't have enough money" or "it's not healthy". I'm hoping in a couple years the older two will be ready to understand that the no can also be "hey, we could buy this but it's a waste of resources and just altogether bad for the planet".

They're also a few years away from being embarrassed by me. I'm sure that will happen, though :P

[MissPeach]

I think you need to work on adjusting your wants first. Otherwise it will feel like you're depriving yourself. I was once a decent spender but realizing my goals (such as RE, FU Money) and realizing the peace of minimalism has helped adjust the wants down a lot.

[DollarBill]

I've been cutting back for a while and was feeling a high about seeing where I can cut back. At first it was easy and now I just stare at my budget thinking that's it can't do any more. I could cut another $130 bucks but think I would be going over the edge. I've been feeling the frugal fatigue then remembered this post. Looked it up and I'm glad I did. Some of the posts were right on, wish I could quote my favorites but it would take a long time. I'm finally getting to FI and feel I can relax but it's hard to break old habits now. What are the stages to ER? I feel like I'm close but I feel I want enough in ER to spend like before FI or when I have enough when I won't have to budget again. I know this is a mental process but dang I feel stuck (but blessed).

[Kepler]

I was thinking about the place for "purpose" in all this and my usual take on it is that frugality is not a means to an end but rather a purpose in itself.  But based on what everyone in this thread has written I was thinking about it a bit more and may have changed my thinking.  Well, this and the what if you strike it rich / what if money were no object discussions.

Not spending money would be more difficult for me if ER weren't a goal.  While saving money is hardwired into me a bit, I'm not so money-oriented that I would Scrooge-McDuck-like hoard money solely for the purpose of owning vast sums of it.  It would therefore be sitting around as an un-used resource.  Which would drive me nuts.  Without any better plan, it would certainly seem rational to me to try spending it on various things in the hopes of increasing my happiness.  (Some of this must be personality.  Some people are hard-wired to believe there must be something better than the status quo or to simply want thrills.)  It wouldn't be the usual consumerist trap because it would be very little cost to me: I'd have no other use for the money.  In such circumstances, not spending the money would require effort which might lead to fatigue. 

However, now that I have ER in mind as a goal, it takes minimal effort to channel the resources towards that goal.

This is my situation, and I hit this blog just at the point when I was starting to wonder what to do with a surplus beginning to pile up (channelled a lot into retirement accounts but was wondering whether I "should" start spending on...  something? House? Car? Nothing really seemed important to "have", but other people seemed to want these things, and my retirement accounts were already going fine if I weren't going to access them until 65...). This blog gave me a much more appealing goal.

[RetiredAt63]

Furnace Wars with the Yarn Harlot's family - who can freeze the longest in Toronto in the late fall / early winter before turning the furnace on?

Back to your previously scheduled program . . .

Ok, I'm with you now. "Hypercompetitive frugal ball" ...LOL I love it.

[ash7962]

I randomly found this thread today and it really resonated.  Short story: I've been feeling super stressed out and keep thinking I should constantly be doing something productive which makes me not want to do anything productive. So, today and yesterday I was getting really complainypants about not wanting to make myself lunch, and feeling like I'm so busy I should just invest in a little more convenience.  Well, I found this thread and I realized what I might be feeling is a little bit of frugal fatigue.  I want to buy lunch and I'm feeling deprived and guilty because I know I shouldn't (especially when the lunch I'm craving is 10$ with no leftovers).  So, after a lot of avoidance, I finally convinced myself to look for a lunch recipe, and found in my folder a pasta dish that is almost exactly like one I was craving to buy.  I put it in my plan to make it, and suddenly I don't feel as deprived and I'm excited about cooking at home instead of going out.  It was an epiphany: Most things I want I can still have if I make it for myself at home (duh, right?).  This is the same story for coffee.  I was paying like 4$ or something ridiculous for a cup of coffee every morning, but then I discovered MMM and got myself a 1 cup coffee maker.  I didn't give up my 4$/day habit, I just made it a ~.40c/day habit.

I feel like most of the posts in here talk about training yourself to want less and don't feel guilty buying things for the smaller pool of wants, which is good.  However, I think the third part of the equation is providing alternate/frugal sources for your wants, especially the really short term simple pleasure type wants.  And this concept may be super obvious, but even after reading all the MMM blog posts and being on the forums for a couple weeks I had forgotten that simple idea and it was causing me to feel frugal fatigue.

[eostache]

For example, I don't get frugal fatigue because I spend on everything I want.  I don't limit my spending in any way.  If I want something, I buy it. (I just don't want very much.)

Yup. I've had REI gift cards or dividend sitting there but can't find anything I want from there. (I do usually end up spending it on REI garage sale items.) I live walking distance to an REI store.

I did just buy a Chromebook ($260) because I wanted to try one out. I have a perfectly good Win7 laptop and a Nexus 7 tablet but I have been thinking about wanting a Chromebook for a year now.

Usually if I think about wanting something new I give myself a week or so to think about it to see if I really want it. I often forget about the item within a few days. So I guess I didn't really want it.

Amazon took forrrr-ever to send my Chromebook (11 days) and it finally showed up today (I'll see it when I get home). During this time that I've been waiting for it I haven't had any thoughts of maybe I shouldn't have bought that. That's a good sign that it is something that I really wanted.

[scrnplyr]

frugality in my world is a lot like dieting. If I don't give myself the occasional free pass to eat or spend whatever I want, I will become so bored and stale that I will question the reason why...

I am constantly rewarding myself with stuff when I have done a nice long stretch of hard core frugalistic behavior and the real challenge is trying to find cool stuff to do or buy that is STILL somewhat frugal compared to the average bear.

[hybrid]

One thing I have discovered is that I am often trading time for money, and since time is a pretty damn valuable commodity to me, I find myself getting a little drained when there is less of it. Case in point, eating at home vs. getting take out. Forget which tastes better or is healthier for a moment, which is faster? Take out, and not by a little. So while I am cooking a lot more at home, eating delicious food, and spending less money, I full realize that the cash I am saving comes with a cost - time I could be using on other things. And yeah, that can lead to a little frugal fatigue.

Last night I spent essentially the whole evening in the kitchen. I fixed dinner for the night, dinner for the next night, and a big batch of blackberry preserves, and of course there is all the clean-up that goes with that. One way I took some of the tedium out of that was to set up my iPad nearby and watched Colbert Report and Daily Show as I was getting things done. This certainly helped.

Second case in point, side gigs. I trade more of my valuable spare time for extra money doing IT work for individuals. The pay is pretty good, but I am losing what would be free time in the process. By keeping a monthly spreadsheet and charting our progress toward eventual retirement I help remind myself with numbers that the time I spend now will be time I don't have to spend later, and the money I make now can also be put to work until that fine day when I don't need to work any more. 

[tariskat]

hybrid, I think the same way - my solution is to crockpot pretty much everything.  I'm an incredibly lazy cook but I would rather eat stuff I made.  You can even do lasagna in the crockpot.

[penguins4everyone!]

I've been thinking about this thread for a few days now.  So I thought I was this evolved person that is gradually moving past all these material wants in life, and that frugal fatigue is behind me.  But then two days ago I get out to my car at work (that i have driven to work all of maybe 3 times in an entire year, i had this off site thing that day) and I have a $76 ticket!  How would I know they're serious about two hour parking, I don't drive to work!  Anyway, I'm an idiot.  But I'm absolutely livid about this ticket.  I really can't get over it.  $76 is about 10 after work drinks that I declined, or 7 kale salads around the corner that I didn't buy myself at lunch, opting to eat yogurt at my desk or a sad banana or something.  So I'm really throwing myself a pity party.  Maybe I have been kidding myself about not wanting the kale salad or the happy hour drinks.  The only way for me to get over this ticket was to spend $11 on an awesome fried chicken sandwich the next day and get myself a smoothie so I can shake this feeling that I'm just working to pay parking tickets.  But now I'm over it, back to my penny pinching ways. 

I've worked as a financial counselor for several years now, and this kind of stuff helps me understand why some of my clients who owe everyone under the sun money and are coming up a ton short every month just have to say f-it and get themselves McDonalds if they feel like it.

[Bob W]

Yes Virginia,  frugal fatigue is real.   

So spending is a learned behavior.  In psych they tell us we must have replacement behaviors.   Do you have replacement behaviors for your spendy ways?

Invite friends over for dinner (instead of going out)

Eat really nice meals (instead of eating out)

Walking and biking instead of driving.

Reading free library books instead of Ipads.

Wearing warm clothes instead of blasting the heat?

Going on nice secluded, beautiful camping trips instead of the resorts.  (I do this often)

Buying really nice gently used clothes at the thrift store instead of the mall.

The idea is to find very, very enjoyable activities and things (perhaps more so than your old spendy habits) as replacement behaviors.

In no time at all you will have forgotten all about frugal fatigue because you are so busy enjoying life.

On the savings side celebrate the small victories.

Set modest goals and then whoop it up when you reach them.  Chip away at the debt or FI number incrementally.   

Some of the fatigue comes from not noticing your progress.  So notice it. 

And then you could always ad some fun games with your SO.

Put $100 in a pot,  who ever cuts, saves or increases income the most that month gets the money.  (or special intimate favors?)

Have a weekly brainstorming session -- the goal -- who can come up with the best idea to zero budget an item.   Take food for example  -- who has the best idea on how to get that budget category to zero?  (hint: grow your own,  shoot the deers, fish the lake, raise the chickens etc)  who has the best idea to get your phone bill to zero?   Who has the best idea to get your auto bills to zero? 

You could even post each of your ideas here and have us vote.  It would help both you and us.

I like the zero game because it is at the heart of the matter.  If every budget category were zero then 10 dollars would be your FI number.   And since we are all incredibly smart I bet with everyone's input we could zero out virtually every category. 

So here is an idea for housing (just talking out loud here) -  Our mortgage, ins, taxes are $750 a month.

Our home appreciates at 3% on 200K = 6K.   So our real cost is $250 per month.  If we rent out our unused very nice basement to a nice stable person for $250 a month, our rent cost is now effectively zero.   Probably it would be less than zero if I figured in the interest deduction?  (hope my wife is reading! lol)

Good luck!  Have fun!

[sheepstache]

I've been thinking about this thread for a few days now.  So I thought I was this evolved person that is gradually moving past all these material wants in life, and that frugal fatigue is behind me.  But then two days ago I get out to my car at work (that i have driven to work all of maybe 3 times in an entire year, i had this off site thing that day) and I have a $76 ticket!  How would I know they're serious about two hour parking, I don't drive to work!  Anyway, I'm an idiot.  But I'm absolutely livid about this ticket.  I really can't get over it.  $76 is about 10 after work drinks that I declined, or 7 kale salads around the corner that I didn't buy myself at lunch, opting to eat yogurt at my desk or a sad banana or something.  So I'm really throwing myself a pity party.  Maybe I have been kidding myself about not wanting the kale salad or the happy hour drinks.  The only way for me to get over this ticket was to spend $11 on an awesome fried chicken sandwich the next day and get myself a smoothie so I can shake this feeling that I'm just working to pay parking tickets.  But now I'm over it, back to my penny pinching ways. 

I've worked as a financial counselor for several years now, and this kind of stuff helps me understand why some of my clients who owe everyone under the sun money and are coming up a ton short every month just have to say f-it and get themselves McDonalds if they feel like it.

Well, calculating the cost in terms of fun things you missed definitely makes it harder.  Can you measure it by something else?  I downgraded my cell plan to one that had fewer minutes and saved me 10 bucks a month.  A year into it, a unique circumstance meant I way overran my minutes and ended up having to pay $65 extra.  Rather than thinking about how much that cost in smoothies or whatever, I simply calculated whether downgrading my phone plan had actually cost me money.  And of course it hadn't, I was still $55 up compared to what I would have had if I hadn't downgraded.  So in your case, you say you don't drive to work often (and that indeed that may have contributed to why you got the ticket), and I'm assuming that's saved you way more than $76.  Or perhaps there's something else that you don't regret cutting back on (a cable bill, perhaps?), and you can measure it in that.

In fact, in your case, let's say that not driving didn't contribute to the likelihood of your getting a ticket (whereas downgrading the phone plan certainly contributed to my problem) and assume you would have gotten the ticket anyway.  Wow, in that case you would have spent all that money on driving for years plus you would still have the ticket!  If you hadn't saved that money, you truly would have been paying the ticket with missed kale salads, so the lesson is that you should start by economizing on less pleasurable things that don't matter as much to you (which is the opposite of the latte factor philosophy).

A lot of successful frugality plans succeed because they concentrate on non-conscious spending.  Like renting a cheaper apartment.  People don't wake up every day and spend energy choosing to live in a cheaper place.  And if they fantasize about living someplace nicer, it probably happens less often than turning down some small treat like after work drinks.  I'd guess frugal fatigue almost always comes from being frugal about things that take a lot of conscious energy.

[penguins4everyone!]

I've been thinking about this thread for a few days now.  So I thought I was this evolved person that is gradually moving past all these material wants in life, and that frugal fatigue is behind me.  But then two days ago I get out to my car at work (that i have driven to work all of maybe 3 times in an entire year, i had this off site thing that day) and I have a $76 ticket!  How would I know they're serious about two hour parking, I don't drive to work!  Anyway, I'm an idiot.  But I'm absolutely livid about this ticket.  I really can't get over it.  $76 is about 10 after work drinks that I declined, or 7 kale salads around the corner that I didn't buy myself at lunch, opting to eat yogurt at my desk or a sad banana or something.  So I'm really throwing myself a pity party.  Maybe I have been kidding myself about not wanting the kale salad or the happy hour drinks.  The only way for me to get over this ticket was to spend $11 on an awesome fried chicken sandwich the next day and get myself a smoothie so I can shake this feeling that I'm just working to pay parking tickets.  But now I'm over it, back to my penny pinching ways. 

I've worked as a financial counselor for several years now, and this kind of stuff helps me understand why some of my clients who owe everyone under the sun money and are coming up a ton short every month just have to say f-it and get themselves McDonalds if they feel like it.

Well, calculating the cost in terms of fun things you missed definitely makes it harder.  Can you measure it by something else?  I downgraded my cell plan to one that had fewer minutes and saved me 10 bucks a month.  A year into it, a unique circumstance meant I way overran my minutes and ended up having to pay $65 extra.  Rather than thinking about how much that cost in smoothies or whatever, I simply calculated whether downgrading my phone plan had actually cost me money.  And of course it hadn't, I was still $55 up compared to what I would have had if I hadn't downgraded.  So in your case, you say you don't drive to work often (and that indeed that may have contributed to why you got the ticket), and I'm assuming that's saved you way more than $76.  Or perhaps there's something else that you don't regret cutting back on (a cable bill, perhaps?), and you can measure it in that.

In fact, in your case, let's say that not driving didn't contribute to the likelihood of your getting a ticket (whereas downgrading the phone plan certainly contributed to my problem) and assume you would have gotten the ticket anyway.  Wow, in that case you would have spent all that money on driving for years plus you would still have the ticket!  If you hadn't saved that money, you truly would have been paying the ticket with missed kale salads, so the lesson is that you should start by economizing on less pleasurable things that don't matter as much to you (which is the opposite of the latte factor philosophy).

A lot of successful frugality plans succeed because they concentrate on non-conscious spending.  Like renting a cheaper apartment.  People don't wake up every day and spend energy choosing to live in a cheaper place.  And if they fantasize about living someplace nicer, it probably happens less often than turning down some small treat like after work drinks.  I'd guess frugal fatigue almost always comes from being frugal about things that take a lot of conscious energy.

Bingo x1000 on the conscious energy comment!  You're absolutely right.  Better to just build the frugality into the big ticket items and calm down about the rest. 

I just today bought my office (nonprofit, un-airconditioned, freezerless) a mini ice machine because literally every single day I debate leaving to get an iced tea or not, and every single day I feel sad that I want something cold and don't want to spend the money.  (And I'm tired of bringing baggies of ice to work like a weirdo!).  Also, this has the added bonus of making me the most popular girl in the office, and hopefully discourage the near constant Starbucks runs the coworkers waste money on.  We'll see if this has the desired effect of increasing overall mustachian-ness of the office.

[Albert]

Bingo x1000 on the conscious energy comment!  You're absolutely right.  Better to just build the frugality into the big ticket items and calm down about the rest. 

Agree 100%. I've never had a frugal fatigue, but that's because my own 50-60% savings rate is based almost entirely on big items (good salary, no car and a modest apartment). If I start to think about a cost of a glass of beer friday night or whether I could afford buying a box of strawberries I'll go crazy soon enough...

[BooksAreNerdy]

This is an interesting question. I think frugal fatigue only exists if you haven't fully committed, heart and soul, to the frugal lifestyle. Some of us seem to be born frugal. I have just never seen the point of spending lots of money and don't mind being frugal. My DH was frugal in many ways but still saw material goods as an important way to express success. I never pushed him, but he dove in headfirst recently, about 10 months after I started reading the blog. He is a total convert now. Because we are both on the same page, there is no such thing as fatigue.

Sure, fatigue is real if both partners are not on the same path. Just like fatigue is real if you haven't really deeply absorbed the message and integrated it into your value system. There is a difference between being frugal to meet a goal and meeting a goal (FIRE) as a side effect of frugality as a lifestyle. The latter prevents burnout from even being a possibility.

[arebelspy]

For example, I don't get frugal fatigue because I spend on everything I want.  I don't limit my spending in any way.  If I want something, I buy it. (I just don't want very much.)

Yup. I've had REI gift cards or dividend sitting there but can't find anything I want from there. (I do usually end up spending it on REI garage sale items.) I live walking distance to an REI store.

Good example.  I think unused gift cards that sit for months or years is a good indicator of someone who is pretty content with what they have.

[Bateaux]

You won't have to be frugal forever.   There is a tipping point out there where the savings pay off.  Keep it up long enough to win the freedom prize.

[C. K.]

And, a somewhat related observation--isn't it so interesting that when a family gets their electricity turned off for lack of payment, or gets their car repossessed, it is this *major* low point in life, barely tolerable and certainly extreme deprivation.  And a couple hundred miles away, there are Amish families that never had their houses wired for electricity in the first place, and have never driven a car a day in their lives.  And you don't see the Amish running around talking about their frugal fatigue! 

Good point.

[Daisy]

As long as work fatigue is greater than frugal fatigue, at some point frugal fatigue becomes meaningless.