Where do you draw the line of being frugal and...

[kei te pai]

Im not quite sure what ‘living your best life’ means. Is it using your resources to live a meaningful life according to your values? Or is it acquiring and experiencing as much as you can? Or something else entirely.

Seems to me like pretty much everyone here has a life of almost unbelievable wealth and opportunity compared to most of humanity. Whatever your dietary preferences or spending.

[Fishindude]

I shake me head when I see people living in expensive late model or new homes who keep the thermostat rather high in the summer and low in the winter for fear of a high utility bill.
Have a few family members that operate this way.

I’m having trouble connecting your comment to the OP’s question. It sounds like you’re talking about people trying to live above their means, which is not quite at all the same as what I think this topic is about.

No, they can afford it but just have that gut instinct to be cheap about it.
A couple degrees of temperature difference in order to be comfortable is pretty incidental cost.

[Dancin'Dog]

The goal here, on the forum, is too maximize savings and FIRE as early as possible.  So, being frugal is the theme.  Doing it with thought, planning, and style is the best way to also live an interesting fulfilled lifestyle, both pre & post-FIRE.


Nobody should be so cheap that it becomes physically or mentally unhealthy, for themselves or their family, of course.  But I don't think that's the degree which the OP was questioning. 


Limiting spending can be tricky in certain social situations, and it has often been discussed here about how to maneuver through or around those times.  There is the occasional regret, but that's part of life and can easily result from other differences besides one's level of frugality.  We all joke about friends who are too tight & also about friends that waste their money on showy things.  Everyone's different and we all have different priorities.


I'd like to hear some of the things that OP thinks is "crossing the line" considering their level of what's acceptable for frugality. 

[crocheted_stache]

Pondering this kind of question while hanging around with husband's parents for a while. DH and I and DH's siblings in general have been more financially successful than parents in law, and it's hard to watch them stubbornly hang onto things that are objectively broken (e.g. the remaining third of a wooden spoon) when there's an unused and intact wooden spoon stashed away here in a cabinet somewhere. To abduct the old one would only disturb the peace, alas. MIL is only one generation removed from a mom who fled Germany either during or just after the war. Parents in law are probably not rich but not struggling financially, either.

My parents came to their own frugal ways through other circumstances and backgrounds, and it manifests differently. They are mustachians in all but name.

The result is that DH and I are dyed-in-the-wool frugal, despite two professional salaries producing what MMM would doubtless call a firehose of money. We are in OMY mode in our mid-40s chiefly because we still to finish up certain things where it's easier to demonstrate a salary than a savings.

Frugality for us at this point is both voluntary and reflexive. We're trying to get out of the mode of fixating on prices of things, and instead trying to make decisions about how things will add value to our lives. We're trying to choose BIFL items over things to replace year after year. We do still buy used, partly to use the abundance of secondhand and gift items available in our area, and partly as a low risk way to try things. We can always give away something that didn't fit in for us.

We bike for economy but also because it's good exercise for desk dwellers and so much more fun than sitting in traffic. We have an economical older car for when the bikes aren't ideal. It's in good working order, so it's a luxury, not a sacrifice, and it makes no difference to us that neighbors have newer cars with bigger payments.

We garden, cook, and can for the joy of it and the time together.

In some ways, not displaying our wealth is to our advantage. It might make us a less attractive target for theft. If one thing isn't the trendiest or shiniest, everything else doesn't have to keep up. I have no hesitation about putting my feet up on my thrift store sofa, as I might if I felt like I lived in a showplace.

I don't make people feel out of place who haven't ever mastered the knack of earning and saving, or at least I hope I don't. This isn't what drives the frugality, just a consequence I've noticed, and I don't mind. If me wearing an old t-shirt makes someone else feel okay wearing theirs, does it matter if I'm wearing it because it's comfortable or because I'm frugal?

Frugality for me isn't any sort of deprivation or struggle, it's just normal routines and skipping stuff I don't really need or want.

[Dicey]

@crocheted_stache, we must be from the same tribe. To paraphrase the late, great Fred Rogers, "I wish you were my neighbor."

[dividend]

It's really about aligning your spending with your values.  And it's very personal.

I bought a new 2007 Honda Fit in December of 2006.  I'm still driving it, because it's still functional and it's been paid off for over a decade.  I get teased about it and have been told more times than I could count that I deserve a nicer new car.  I just don't care.

I mostly furnished my first house for ~$5k.  Lived there 9 years.  For the new house I bought 3 really nice pieces of furniture that add a tremendous amount of aesthetic and functional joy to the way we live.  I could have kept the old furniture, but I'm glad we spent that $$$.  I care about this.

I love to cook, and cook most days from scratch.  I shop at Walmart for stuff like my favorite breakfast sausage, yogurt, teas, soda for my husband, etc. where the price is lower for the exact same items.  Produce is cheap too, but it's low quality and rots quickly, so I buy it elsewhere and pay more.  I also buy Rancho Gordo beans and coffee from local roasters and am a sucker for really nice cheese.  This all improves my quality of life.

I enjoy fashion and beautiful jewelry and shoes.  So I buy beautiful things to wear out a predetermined budget %.  And I care for them appropriately, dry cleaning where necessary - everything else is washed delicate and line dried, and it's wearable for decades.  I get flak for my shoe collection, but it's a thing that makes me feel happy.   This brings me joy.

We travel.  We love Hawaii, so we play the CC game for airline miles and book cheap flights.  We generally don't stay in resorts, preferring little condos or even cheap efficiency hotel rooms with kitchenettes so we can cook breakfast and pack lunches and explore.  Because of that we don't skimp on cool excursions or $18 drinks at the Mai Tai bar watching the sunset.  Most years our biggest vacation expense is paying for our siblings to come with us, because we love them being there with us.  This brings us joy. 

And some things you compromise on, and that's a value thing as well.  Husband really wanted a bigger, nicer house.  Ours was paid off and I was content, with an enormous sense of security.  I'm typing this sitting next to the pool of the newer bigger house, wondering, as I have frequently since we bought it, if it's worth 6x more than the old one to me.  I don't hate it (I mean, I hate having a mortgage again), but it's disconcerting to start to see the pressures to spend that come from a big-ish house in a prominent, nice neighborhood.  The lawn services and landscaping, the money to maintain the pool, the cleaning services and cosmetic re-models all around us.  The creeping feeling that, since we can live here we've somehow "made it" and can just spend whatever without thinking about it.  I've gotten asked many times when we're going to re-do the kitchen.  That's a $50k question and people just assume it's inevitable.  Even though I think I'm still on track for FIRE, I am uneasy.  I felt more balanced in the smaller, paid off house, because I felt like ultra- minimizing housing and transportation expenses allowed me to spend a little more on food and shoes and tropical vacations and not compromise my goals.  Here, I fight lifestyle creep, and it's a lot harder to do when we suddenly look wealthy.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk

[Metalcat]

I wonder if OP is going to return an engage with all of these questions and responses?

[Jack0Life]

I figured out my frugal level by cutting back until I didn't like it.  Dropping cable and using Netflix and DVDs from the library turned out to be positive.  Not going out to eat for a month sucked.  I recommend doing a no spend month.  See how low you can go.  Pay attention to what you really miss vs what you don't.  I did a buy no clothes for a year challenge.  Now I rarely buy clothes.  Challenge yourself to try, push it until it hurts, then take a step back to where it's comfortable, but not back to where you were.

I like this one especially going out to eat.
Going out to eat will set us back anywhere from $30-$100 per meal and if you think how much home meals you can cook for that price you feel a bit guilty but I enjoy going out.
Now I just don't even think out it. Sometimes it's just "honey let's go out to eat tonight".

[crocheted_stache]

@crocheted_stache, we must be from the same tribe. To paraphrase the late, great Fred Rogers, "I wish you were my neighbor."

If "NorCal" is an accurate description of your whereabouts, we're neighbors at least in the sense of moderate weekend road trip distance, when we're at home.

[friedmmj]

In my experience, the spend vs. reward relationship basically mimics the standard risk vs. reward curve, so with my frugality I generally try to be where I get 75-90% of the reward (blue-chip large cap to mid-cap funds in the image below).


As an example, a while back a group of friends were planing a vacation to Hawaii. Several of them stayed right on the beach at nice resort where the rooms were $500 a night. My wife and I stayed two blocks from the beach where the rooms were $120 a night.

This is very consistent with my operating model.  If you take the time to optimize your choices, many times it’s not about sacrificing your lifestyle.  You can get most of the utility at half the cost whether it’s autos, houses, clothes, travel, whatever.  Many people don’t really over-consume, they just overpay.

[friedmmj]

I shake me head when I see people living in expensive late model or new homes who keep the thermostat rather high in the summer and low in the winter for fear of a high utility bill.
Have a few family members that operate this way.

I’m having trouble connecting your comment to the OP’s question. It sounds like you’re talking about people trying to live above their means, which is not quite at all the same as what I think this topic is about.

No, they can afford it but just have that gut instinct to be cheap about it.
A couple degrees of temperature difference in order to be comfortable is pretty incidental cost.

Maybe they are concerned about the impact to the climate of consuming energy.

[Dicey]

@crocheted_stache, we must be from the same tribe. To paraphrase the late, great Fred Rogers, "I wish you were my neighbor."

If "NorCal" is an accurate description of your whereabouts, we're neighbors at least in the sense of moderate weekend road trip distance, when we're at home.

NorCal is definirely accurate, East Bay is more specific.

[Imma]

I shake me head when I see people living in expensive late model or new homes who keep the thermostat rather high in the summer and low in the winter for fear of a high utility bill.
Have a few family members that operate this way.

I’m having trouble connecting your comment to the OP’s question. It sounds like you’re talking about people trying to live above their means, which is not quite at all the same as what I think this topic is about.

No, they can afford it but just have that gut instinct to be cheap about it.
A couple degrees of temperature difference in order to be comfortable is pretty incidental cost.

Maybe they are concerned about the impact to the climate of consuming energy.

Also, different people have different ideas of what a comfortable temperature is.
We are those people with a "cold" house because we don't feel cold. I do turn up the heating when I know I'm going to get visitors who are easily cold, but if you visit me unexpectedly in the middle of winter, you may feel uncomfortable for a bit. I suppose that's the risk of turning up unannounced.

[Daughn]

Wow, thank you all so much for all the responses to my post. It really has opened my eyes to the different ways we all think about frugality. So many good points were made. I guess living your best life really is about living YOUR best life and what is best for one person may not be for another.

[GuitarStv]

The strange thing is that as I cut expenses, I found that the lower cost version was actually better and gave me more freedom.

Instead of feeling like I'm sacrificing some fabulous experiences, I feel like I have gained peace and saved money to boot.

This is more or less how I feel.  It's very rare that I find spending more money and buying expensive stuff makes significant long-term improvement to my life.

[Metalcat]

Wow, thank you all so much for all the responses to my post. It really has opened my eyes to the different ways we all think about frugality. So many good points were made. I guess living your best life really is about living YOUR best life and what is best for one person may not be for another.

Well, yeah.

Some of the things I save on are things that other people would never go without. Meanwhile, I spend large sums on some things that others think are frivolous.

People's needs can be wildly different.

[sonofsven]

A friend who is extremely frugal was planning a Hawaii vacay.  He wanted to walk to the beach, but all the Air b and b's available were out of budget, except one.
In reading the reviews he found the major gripe with the cheap place was that, besides being a little run down, there were no window screens, so lots of complaining about bugs, or high temps inside.
He stuffed a bunch of window screen material (he saves everything, lol) and a few rolls of blue painter tape in his bag, problem solved.
That did not seem "over the line" to me.

[ketchup]

Wow, thank you all so much for all the responses to my post. It really has opened my eyes to the different ways we all think about frugality. So many good points were made. I guess living your best life really is about living YOUR best life and what is best for one person may not be for another.

Well, yeah.

Some of the things I save on are things that other people would never go without. Meanwhile, I spend large sums on some things that others think are frivolous.

People's needs can be wildly different.

My favorite recent example of this is that we've spent more buying camera gear in the last nine months than we have buying cars over the last nine years.

[Just Joe]

Frugal: buy quality, repair that thing if it breaks, get another five or fifty years out of it for minimal effort or cost.
Cheap: toss that thing out, buy a new one on sale. The replacement won't last long either. Landfill space is endless and the environment can absorb all this trash perpetually - can't it?

Short term thinking/planning seems to be cheap to me when better choices could be more frugal in the long run. 

[jeninco]

Wow, thank you all so much for all the responses to my post. It really has opened my eyes to the different ways we all think about frugality. So many good points were made. I guess living your best life really is about living YOUR best life and what is best for one person may not be for another.

Well, yeah.

Some of the things I save on are things that other people would never go without. Meanwhile, I spend large sums on some things that others think are frivolous.

People's needs can be wildly different.

My favorite recent example of this is that we've spent more buying camera gear in the last nine months than we have buying cars over the last nine years.

Ha, our usual state of affairs is the the replacement cost of our bikes exceeds the replacement cost of our cars (assuming we could buy them used again). We ride many times more than we drive, typically.

And, to the OP, I'd re-state that things that seem like a "burden" to one person may turn out to be an unexpected joy to another. Cooking at home in the summer with local, picked-that-day produce is a delight -- it's not much work to turn out wonderful meals. Riding my bike around town instead of sitting in a car in stop-and-go traffic is a complete win, plus I get a little exercise, plus I can park right where I'm going rather than blocks away.

In fact, as several people have mentioned, sometimes taking the time to optimize something that might seem "spendy" results in it being more fun and more satisfying: perhaps you have more involvement or buy in, or maybe you figured out a better way to get the thing/get the thing done. I strongly dislike paying a ton for something that's not, if not "exactly" the way I want it, pretty darned close, so if I can put in some legwork and get the thing closer to how I want, that generally also reduces the price.

[jeninco]

I had one more example of something that could be frugal, or could be delightful, or both, depending on how you look at it.

There's a handmade paper store in my town that sells really beautiful paper in great colors for pretty cheap (starting around $9 for sheets that are .. big -- 16 inches by 24, or larger). I enjoy getting to create things with beautiful stuff, but my life is pretty busy right now, so big projects are emotionally difficult to take on. However, I also like to write people notes on pretty cards, and such cards are insanely expensive.

But, it turns out that if I purchase a ream of cardstock and a box of A4 envelopes from an office supply store, I have the most of what I need. If I buy a couple of pieces of the lovely paper from the paper store, I have the decoration. So now, for the cost of 1/2 hour or an hour of my time every now and then, I can cut 12-24 pieces of cardstock in half, fold the halves in half (now I have cards that fit in the A4 envelopes) and then cut the handmade paper into appropriate size/shape pieces and glue it on.

It's cheap -- plain cardstock is not much more expensive than paper, the envelopes are similarly cheap, and I don't choose the fanciest $$ handmade paper, but I do choose colors and patterns and paper material I love looking at and touching and think will be pretty. I get to be creative, but it's not a huge time or energy commitment. And at the end of the hour, I have several dozen more cards to stick into the box where I keep such things, and the next time I want to send someone a lovely note all I have to do is pull one out -- everything's in one place and ready to go.

And lest you think I'm an insane old-style southern belle, people really like getting pretty handmade cards. The note on the inside could say "thanks for being my trainer this month, it was really fun!" or "thank you for helping my mother limp her damaged car back home" -- it doesn't have to be a huge thing: it'll be received as a really wonderful gesture.

[ChpBstrd]

Where do you draw the line between being frugal and not living your best life? I try to be as economical as possible but I want to enjoy life as well. I see a lot of people on here that seem to, for me anyway, go to far. They make themselves suffer just to save a buck.

Problems with a deprivation mindset:

1) Assumes negative feelings can always be relieved long-term by spending (like ads persuade us to believe!). Does not account for frustrations when the plastic gadget breaks, the newness wears off, hours are lost to shopping, the trash/packaging must be dealt with, the purchase is regretted, the complex features become obstacles, storage/clutter becomes a problem, the opponent process of dopamine spikes, hedonic adaptation, etc. Certainly poverty is a form of suffering, but beyond some very basic point, the relationship between lack of money and suffering breaks down, which leads us to...

2) Does not factor in time tradeoffs. For those of us working for our savings, time = money and money = time. To spend more money, we will have to work longer, and all we can do is trade a portion of our lifetimes in exchange for money. Work is a form of suffering, which is why people are willing to pay us for it. If having houses, cars, clothes, electronics, clothes, luxuries, etc. that are 10% better will cost us a year of suffering at work doing things we'd rather not do, is it a net gain or a net loss in suffering?

[Greystache]

For me it's pretty simple. Frugal makes me feel good, cheap makes me feel bad.  I feel good when I find a piece of high quality clothing in a thrift shop for one tenth of its retail price. I feel good when I am able to fix my old car myself. I would feel bad if I did not pay my fair share of the check or if I cheated on my taxes or if I bought a cheap piece of crap just to safe a buck in the short term even though it would probably cost more in the long term.

[Leseratte2021]

Well said greystache!
I have a couple of really well off friends, some spendypants, some normal, some frugal and some cheap... I could never really point to the feeling of un-easyness around the cheap ones...thanks to your clear defintion I can better understand why I am reluctand to go on a vacation with the cheap ones...

[JJ-]

Agreed. Also over spending makes me feel bad too.

[Jenny Wren]

A friend who is extremely frugal was planning a Hawaii vacay.  He wanted to walk to the beach, but all the Air b and b's available were out of budget, except one.
In reading the reviews he found the major gripe with the cheap place was that, besides being a little run down, there were no window screens, so lots of complaining about bugs, or high temps inside.
He stuffed a bunch of window screen material (he saves everything, lol) and a few rolls of blue painter tape in his bag, problem solved.
That did not seem "over the line" to me.

Hah, I love this! I always read air bnb reviews for just this reason. It's how I knew to bring an air mattress for the kids to a cheap airbnb with a broken sleeper sofa, and a crockpot to the one with the "full kitchen" that was just a fridge, coffee pot, and sink.

[wageslave23]

In my experience, the spend vs. reward relationship basically mimics the standard risk vs. reward curve, so with my frugality I generally try to be where I get 75-90% of the reward (blue-chip large cap to mid-cap funds in the image below).


As an example, a while back a group of friends were planing a vacation to Hawaii. Several of them stayed right on the beach at nice resort where the rooms were $500 a night. My wife and I stayed two blocks from the beach where the rooms were $120 a night.

This is very consistent with my operating model.  If you take the time to optimize your choices, many times it’s not about sacrificing your lifestyle.  You can get most of the utility at half the cost whether it’s autos, houses, clothes, travel, whatever.  Many people don’t really over-consume, they just overpay.

This is a good way to put it.  They don't "overconsume, just overpay".  Brilliant.  And describes the difference in my spending to peers.  Thanks.

[Zikoris]

This is very consistent with my operating model.  If you take the time to optimize your choices, many times it’s not about sacrificing your lifestyle.  You can get most of the utility at half the cost whether it’s autos, houses, clothes, travel, whatever.  Many people don’t really over-consume, they just overpay.

This is a good way to put it.  They don't "overconsume, just overpay".  Brilliant.  And describes the difference in my spending to peers.  Thanks.
[/quote]

I totally disagree, most people dramatically over-consume, and it's wreaking havoc on the planet. The entire MMM premise is that the average middle-class lifestyle is an exploding volcano of wastefulness.

[friedmmj]

I totally disagree, most people dramatically over-consume, and it's wreaking havoc on the planet. The entire MMM premise is that the average middle-class lifestyle is an exploding volcano of wastefulness.

Notice I said "many" people, not "all" or even "most" people.  I was making a separate point that any given level of consumption can cost a lot less than many people pay for that just by being a better and smarter consumer and optimizing your spend.

  I do agree with you that overconsumption is also a major issue for society and our planet.

[Daughn]

For me it's pretty simple. Frugal makes me feel good, cheap makes me feel bad.  I feel good when I find a piece of high quality clothing in a thrift shop for one tenth of its retail price. I feel good when I am able to fix my old car myself. I would feel bad if I did not pay my fair share of the check or if I cheated on my taxes or if I bought a cheap piece of crap just to safe a buck in the short term even though it would probably cost more in the long term.

Yes, I love this. Well said. I agree 100%!

[kite]

Where do you draw the line between being frugal and not living your best life? I try to be as economical as possible but I want to enjoy life as well. I see a lot of people on here that seem to, for me anyway, go to far. They make themselves suffer just to save a buck. To me, that isn't a life well lived. All observations and opinions are welcome.......

The line moves.

I think I could gladly do without a clothes dryer for the rest of my life. That's frugal, better for the environment, and I don't mind hanging laundry. Buying a clothes dryer won't make my life any more enjoyable. But I'm completely over not having a dishwasher.  It's not like we are suddenly generating more dishes to wash, but I'm tired of them.  It takes mere minutes, but I still hate it. And I'm going to spend a tidy sum on a fancy shmancy thing to wash my dishes and feel like I'm the Queen of the world. 
Early in the pandemic I sprung for air conditioning.  Prior to spending so much time at home, lack of AC had zero effect because I was out of the house when it was hot. That was a real treat when we got it.  And now I'm spoiled.

[Dancin'Dog]

Where do you draw the line between being frugal and not living your best life? I try to be as economical as possible but I want to enjoy life as well. I see a lot of people on here that seem to, for me anyway, go to far. They make themselves suffer just to save a buck. To me, that isn't a life well lived. All observations and opinions are welcome.......

The line moves.

I think I could gladly do without a clothes dryer for the rest of my life. That's frugal, better for the environment, and I don't mind hanging laundry. Buying a clothes dryer won't make my life any more enjoyable. But I'm completely over not having a dishwasher.  It's not like we are suddenly generating more dishes to wash, but I'm tired of them.  It takes mere minutes, but I still hate it. And I'm going to spend a tidy sum on a fancy shmancy thing to wash my dishes and feel like I'm the Queen of the world. 
Early in the pandemic I sprung for air conditioning.  Prior to spending so much time at home, lack of AC had zero effect because I was out of the house when it was hot. That was a real treat when we got it.  And now I'm spoiled.

It's funny how much we all love our dishwashers.  But, have you ever noticed how SLOW the damn things are?  It seems like most of them take 2 hours or more to to wash a load of dishes, and then are too hot to unload for another hour or two.  It would likely take about 15 minutes to wash them by hand.


I've noticed people who live alone often use far less dishes and commonly hand wash them & use the D/W as a drying rack.  LOL 

[Plina]

Where do you draw the line between being frugal and not living your best life? I try to be as economical as possible but I want to enjoy life as well. I see a lot of people on here that seem to, for me anyway, go to far. They make themselves suffer just to save a buck. To me, that isn't a life well lived. All observations and opinions are welcome.......

The line moves.

I think I could gladly do without a clothes dryer for the rest of my life. That's frugal, better for the environment, and I don't mind hanging laundry. Buying a clothes dryer won't make my life any more enjoyable. But I'm completely over not having a dishwasher.  It's not like we are suddenly generating more dishes to wash, but I'm tired of them.  It takes mere minutes, but I still hate it. And I'm going to spend a tidy sum on a fancy shmancy thing to wash my dishes and feel like I'm the Queen of the world. 
Early in the pandemic I sprung for air conditioning.  Prior to spending so much time at home, lack of AC had zero effect because I was out of the house when it was hot. That was a real treat when we got it.  And now I'm spoiled.

It's funny how much we all love our dishwashers.  But, have you ever noticed how SLOW the damn things are?  It seems like most of them take 2 hours or more to to wash a load of dishes, and then are too hot to unload for another hour or two.  It would likely take about 15 minutes to wash them by hand.


I've noticed people who live alone often use far less dishes and commonly hand wash them & use the D/W as a drying rack.  LOL

Dishwasher was one non negotiable requirement when I bought my apartment or at least an ability to install a dishwasher. I hate doing dishes. Actually, most of them have a 30 min fast washing programs but the longer ones use less water and energy. It is actually more energy efficient to use the dishwasher than handwashing. I don’t care about the time, as I don’t need to stand by it.

I gave up the washing machine but I think it is a pain in the ass to live without my own. I could technically install one in my bathroom but that would result in need of remodeling the room. I would personally never buy a dryer. In my last apartment I used it for pillows and blankett and was really annoyed because I had to pay for it to get fixed after it broke because it was less work then get it out of the apartment.

[SpaceCow]

I'm still waiting for the shoe to drop on the dishwasher hedonic-adaptation. I bought a used one this spring, and I absolutely love the thing. It's a newer Frigidaire model--it was sold on Facebook Marketplace as broken with error codes. No idea what problem the previous owner had, but it has worked perfectly for me for 6 months now.

My $40 dishwasher turns one of my most hated chores into an almost enjoyable one. You put the dishes in dirty and they come out clean. What a modern marvel! And it uses way less water than I did washing them myself. I'm thankful every time I use it.

I think I draw the line somewhere between where I am now with my $40 dishwasher and a fancypants model purchased new for $1k.

[Chris22]

My dishwasher broke one time and I went about a week without one while waiting for the new unit to be delivered. Washing plates by hand is no big deal, but washing each utensil is a pain in the ass, and so is washing every glass. And then rinsing endlessly to get all the soap out. Fuck that.

I run our dishwasher after dinner overnight and unload in the AM so I don’t care how long the thing takes (3:34 according to the display, wow).

[Rusted Rose]

washing each utensil is a pain in the ass, and so is washing every glass. And then rinsing endlessly to get all the soap out. Fuck that.

All true ... though I bought this weird silicone fringe scrubby thing a little while back intended for dishes and pots and pans. Turns out it sucks at both of those things. But folded, it makes hand-washing utensils fast and easy, and my walnut fiber scrubbers don't get shredded on knives and forks. Who knew!

It's also quite good for glasses as long as you can keep hold of the glass, ha ha. But I don't use that many glasses. A bigger family that does should definitely have an appliance.

Re: other points in this thread,

Hand-washing takes less water via the bucket method instead of running water for everything.

And newer dishwashers, like one I used to have, may allow the heat to be set lower so things don't end up searing hot or use up as much energy. Older ones, maybe not so much?

[Metalcat]

I feel like the weirdo who actually prefers to wash dishes by hand.

[PDXTabs]

I take a hybrid approach. Silverware goes in the dishwasher. Everything else that fits well does to. Then I happily hand wash what is left (and sharp knives).

[ender]

I feel like the weirdo who actually prefers to wash dishes by hand.

I actually do too, though I find with a kiddo being able to sterilize things in the dishwasher is pretty great.

[Metalcat]

I'm also baffled by people finding utensils to be the hardest thing to hand wash. All utensils in my house immediately after use go into a basin with soapy water in it and soak until the dishes are to be done. They almost always just need a quick rinse. I can grab a handful of them at once, briefly check for debris, and then rinse them all off.

We're just two people, so the dish washer was rarely being run when we had one at our old place. It drove me insane because kitchen items I wanted were always sitting crusty in the dishwasher for days, and I would have to go looking for them and then clean them.
Super annoying.

If I had kids, then sure, I'm sure I would prefer a dishwasher and it would probably be run daily so I wouldn't be aggravated having to dig a dirty measuring cup out of the dirty washer where grime has been incubating for 3 days *barf*

I was so happy when our new place didn't have a dishwasher and the condo bans them from being installed. I no longer want to murder my spouse for using something and leaving it in the dishwasher when I need it in the middle of a recipe.

Our dishwasher did NOT contribute to marital harmony.

[PoutineLover]

I don't have a dishwasher or a dryer and it doesn't bother me at all. I don't mind washing dishes by hand, the only time there are a lot is if we have people over, otherwise it's a quick chore.

A washer is essential, I've lived the laundromat life and found it very inconvenient, but I don't think dryers are necessary. I've had one before, and only used it for sheets and towels anyway. Now I just hang everything.

I don't know if I'm being cheap or frugal by not buying appliances that I don't consider necessary. In general I don't feel like I deprive myself of anything that I really want or need, but I always try to get stuff cheap or free if I can, often by trading or buying used. If I'm buying something new, I try to get quality even if it costs more, but not when it seems like the extra cost is just for the name brand.

My life costs are based on my remaining money after I've made the investments I consider necessary to reach my goals, so it doesn't feel like I have a lot left over to blow but that's just because I've already saved about half. I consider it frugal to live within one's means, but cheap to mooch off of others.

[Metalcat]

I don't have a dishwasher or a dryer and it doesn't bother me at all. I don't mind washing dishes by hand, the only time there are a lot is if we have people over, otherwise it's a quick chore.

A washer is essential, I've lived the laundromat life and found it very inconvenient, but I don't think dryers are necessary. I've had one before, and only used it for sheets and towels anyway. Now I just hang everything.

I don't know if I'm being cheap or frugal by not buying appliances that I don't consider necessary. In general I don't feel like I deprive myself of anything that I really want or need, but I always try to get stuff cheap or free if I can, often by trading or buying used. If I'm buying something new, I try to get quality even if it costs more, but not when it seems like the extra cost is just for the name brand.

My life costs are based on my remaining money after I've made the investments I consider necessary to reach my goals, so it doesn't feel like I have a lot left over to blow but that's just because I've already saved about half. I consider it frugal to live within one's means, but cheap to mooch off of others.

We're kind of in between. Washers and dryers are also banned in our building, but we have a laundry room on the main floor, so I don't need to go offsite to use machines.

We dry most of our clothes, but we can only hang so much up in an apartment.

I love having the laundry room because it means all loads can be done at once, and we don't waste precious square footage in our unit on appliances. Plus I never have to hear them, which is nice.

[Plina]

washing each utensil is a pain in the ass, and so is washing every glass. And then rinsing endlessly to get all the soap out. Fuck that.

All true ... though I bought this weird silicone fringe scrubby thing a little while back intended for dishes and pots and pans. Turns out it sucks at both of those things. But folded, it makes hand-washing utensils fast and easy, and my walnut fiber scrubbers don't get shredded on knives and forks. Who knew!

It's also quite good for glasses as long as you can keep hold of the glass, ha ha. But I don't use that many glasses. A bigger family that does should definitely have an appliance.

Re: other points in this thread,

Hand-washing takes less water via the bucket method instead of running water for everything.

And newer dishwashers, like one I used to have, may allow the heat to be set lower so things don't end up searing hot or use up as much energy. Older ones, maybe not so much?

Modern dishwashers seems to use between 8-14 liters (2,1-3,7 gallons) of water and I saw one that used 6,5 liters when I looked around. Even if you use buckets it would probably not be possible to hand wash with the same amount. It is heating the water that use most energy. I can adjust the water temperature and in more modern machines open themselves and let the heat out.

[Imma]

I don't have a dishwasher or a dryer and it doesn't bother me at all. I don't mind washing dishes by hand, the only time there are a lot is if we have people over, otherwise it's a quick chore.

A washer is essential, I've lived the laundromat life and found it very inconvenient, but I don't think dryers are necessary. I've had one before, and only used it for sheets and towels anyway. Now I just hang everything.

I don't know if I'm being cheap or frugal by not buying appliances that I don't consider necessary. In general I don't feel like I deprive myself of anything that I really want or need, but I always try to get stuff cheap or free if I can, often by trading or buying used. If I'm buying something new, I try to get quality even if it costs more, but not when it seems like the extra cost is just for the name brand.

My life costs are based on my remaining money after I've made the investments I consider necessary to reach my goals, so it doesn't feel like I have a lot left over to blow but that's just because I've already saved about half. I consider it frugal to live within one's means, but cheap to mooch off of others.

I've never really missed a dishwasher, even when we're having people over.  I try to clean utensils, pots and pans while I'm cooking, the way may grandma learned me) so after the meal there's only silverware and plates left and both are easy and fast to clean. And usually when we're having company over a few offer to help out with doing the dishes anyway.

We actually do have a dryer because the used washing machine we bought was actually a washer-dryer combo. But I only use it a few times of year when it's been raining for weeks and I'm running out of towels. I never use it to dry clothing. Drying takes ages and everything comes out a wrinkled mess.

[ysette9]

My experience with dryers in a few European countries is that they are quite different from dryers in the US. Here they are big and powerful and get your laundry totally dry snd fluffy in under and hour.

[Dancin'Dog]

My experience with dryers in a few European countries is that they are quite different from dryers in the US. Here they are big and powerful and get your laundry totally dry snd fluffy in under and hour.

Also if you live in a place with a lot of rain and high humidity it can be almost impossible to do laundry without a dryer.  We'd never be able to get towels or blue jeans dry at our place in the NC mountains during the rainy seasons that are common here.  Sometimes it's so bad that mold grows on our leather goods & even on the woodwork in the house.  Our laundry would sour before drying during those spells. 

[sonofsven]

My experience with dryers in a few European countries is that they are quite different from dryers in the US. Here they are big and powerful and get your laundry totally dry snd fluffy in under and hour.

Also if you live in a place with a lot of rain and high humidity it can be almost impossible to do laundry without a dryer.  We'd never be able to get towels or blue jeans dry at our place in the NC mountains during the rainy seasons that are common here.  Sometimes it's so bad that mold grows on our leather goods & even on the woodwork in the house.  Our laundry would sour before drying during those spells.

I'm also in a wet climate but I heat with wood so when my dryer has broken in the wet months I've hung clothes all around the living room. Not ideal, but it works.

[force majeure]

Dont get me started on cars.
Where I live, every second car is a Range Rover,
have a check, its also one of the most problem car brands.

[uniwelder]

Dont get me started on cars.
Where I live, every second car is a Range Rover,
have a check, its also one of the most problem car brands.

This thread stayed on topic for a while, veered a bit, but now this? I’m not sure how this has anything to do with frugal vs cheap or going too far to the money saving extreme. People buying fancy cars that require expensive upkeep/repairs?

[Zikoris]

My experience with dryers in a few European countries is that they are quite different from dryers in the US. Here they are big and powerful and get your laundry totally dry snd fluffy in under and hour.

Also if you live in a place with a lot of rain and high humidity it can be almost impossible to do laundry without a dryer.  We'd never be able to get towels or blue jeans dry at our place in the NC mountains during the rainy seasons that are common here.  Sometimes it's so bad that mold grows on our leather goods & even on the woodwork in the house.  Our laundry would sour before drying during those spells.

Have you ever thought about getting a dehumidifier? I picked one up during that horrible "heat dome" a couple months ago when ACs were sold out everywhere, and I've been really happy with it. I bought it so I could get some sleep at night, but faster-drying clothes has been a nice side effect as well.