Where do you draw the line of being frugal and...

[Daughn]

Where do you draw the line between being frugal and not living your best life? I try to be as economical as possible but I want to enjoy life as well. I see a lot of people on here that seem to, for me anyway, go to far. They make themselves suffer just to save a buck. To me, that isn't a life well lived. All observations and opinions are welcome.......

[uniwelder]

Interesting observation. I see the opposite in this forum, as it seems most people live a very expensive lifestyle, meaning above the US average.

edited to add--- For myself, as an engineer by trade, I enjoy the optimization that goes with being frugal.  Its fun, not a burden.  I think its a burden to those for whom its a necessity, rather than a choice.  I can afford to be wasteful, but chose not to, which eases the mental stress that would be a burden to someone living paycheck to paycheck.

[Daughn]

Thank you for the observation. I agree to an extent. However, I don't want to call people out by naming names and the things that they do. I'm not trying to humiliate anyone, I am just curious.

[uniwelder]

Thank you for the observation. I agree to an extent. However, I don't want to call people out by naming names and the things that they do. I'm not trying to humiliate anyone, I am just curious.

Why not call them out?  Maybe you'll learn more about why they hold whatever beliefs or keep to whatever habits they have.  They do what they do for a reason--- some to save money toward FIRE goals, some for ethical/environmental, some for the challenge.  A very small percentage here would live frugally out of necessity, and those would probably be the only ones that might feel humiliated.

[beekayworld]

The strange thing is that as I cut expenses, I found that the lower cost version was actually better and gave me more freedom.

Instead of feeling like I'm sacrificing some fabulous experiences, I feel like I have gained peace and saved money to boot.

I prepare my own food and make it how I want so I know what's in it. For example, cole slaw in a restaurant always contains sugar.  At home I don't add sugar. Eating out can be fun if I do it once in a while, but not regularly.

I used to belong to two gyms so I could take a dance class six days a week. Now the instructor posts three new classes each week on Facebook and I venmo him a thank you that's 20% of what I used to pay ($60 instead of $300 each month). I don't have to commute or take it at a particular time, and if I don't like one routine I can switch to another mid-workout.

Some people drive to Starbucks every day which sounds like an expensive hassle to me. Why not make your coffee at home in your pajamas and relax while drinking it from an actual ceramic cup, not styrofoam?

Clothes- I very seldom buy anything new anymore. I follow Youtube videos and see how to restyle different pieces. I have a sewing machine and have modified some of my clothes. I enjoy finding things at the thrift store super cheap and then then modify them to customize. 

Evaluate what you spend money on and how much enjoyment you get from it.  If you really enjoy your Starbucks coffee and have not found a way to make it taste the same at home, that's a reasonable expense for you.

If I were someone who wouldn't complete a one hour dance class without the peer pressure of being in a class setting, paying for a gym would be a reasonable expense for me.  Or it was my only place to socialize

What in particular are you feeling you are missing out on? Maybe we can help you brainstorm a way to get the fun part without the expense. Happy Hours? Invite your friends to a cocktail party in your garden where everyone brings a bottle/mixer/appetizer or something like that. 

[Dreamer40]

 People can sometimes sound a little cheap when they talk about food, which is literally the most important thing for survival. If all of someone’s food comes from discount chain grocery stores, they’re probably not eating much local produce that was picked when ripe with developed flavors and nutrients. No need to be wasteful on grocery spending, but the goal of a good life shouldn’t be to eat sawdust just because it’s cheap. Not only for health, but also because of how much joy good food brings.

[Morning Glory]

People can sometimes sound a little cheap when they talk about food, which is literally the most important thing for survival. If all of someone’s food comes from discount chain grocery stores, they’re probably not eating much local produce that was picked when ripe with developed flavors and nutrients. No need to be wasteful on grocery spending, but the goal of a good life shouldn’t be to eat sawdust just because it’s cheap. Not only for health, but also because of how much joy good food brings.

Umm, where I live there is no fresh local produce for six months of the year.  Aldi is a decent option for fresh, although it's all traveled a good distance no matter where you shop (I'll agree that Walmart is terrible). Frozen fruit and veggies are a far cry from "sawdust".

[Zikoris]

I make the primary focus ethics. If you care at all about things like the environment, human rights, animal rights, etc, then acting accordingly eliminates the vast majority of consumer spending. My definition of "living my best life" would always involve moving closer to my ideals, which would never involve increased consumption and all the pollution, garbage, deaths, slavery, child labor, etc that go along with that.

I don't think we need to always do everything perfectly, but we should definitely always be trying to move towards being more ethical people, and how we spend is such a big part of that.

As a bonus, living this way makes it incredibly easy to save a fortune. I've never had any trouble maintaining a 65-70% savings rate, even living in Vancouver and earning very modest office clerk/receptionist salaries.

[Mr. Green]

If you think what you see on here now is extreme, what people were talking about five years ago would leave you shook. Lol.

[Plina]

For me it is about choices. I prefer to buy less clothes but with a higher quality. I have a 600 USD Gore tex jacket that I bought 7-8 years ago. It still looks like new but it is not as waterresistant as before so it might be time to buy a new one. The same thing with my winterjacket. Or the Mac that I replaced after 8? years. I know people that have several jackets or computers during that time. I could not care less of what kind of phone I have so I have always bought one of the cheapest smartphones and now I only use my workphone.

I like to travel so normally I spend money on travel. I don’t buy souvenirs but I like to eat well. I rarely go on organised excursions but If I do, I prefer to pay more to go in small groups. I walk and take public transportation instead of taxi or a car. I don’t own a car, so I rent when I have a need. I prefer buying local or groceries from my country so I am prepared to spend more on that but I look at prices and I get them delivered. I buy fresh strawberries in the summer because they are so good but I don’t see the value of buying imported during winter because they are tasteless. I recently got back to triathlon and hired a coach but I realised I have lost the joy of looking at stuff to buy. I also prefer to do one race per year and not several. I prefer to take lunch with me to work and would not buy coffee in a coffee shop because work provides me with coffee but I am happy to pay the meals at a restaurant when I go with my parents. I cut my own hair now that it is short. I like to hike but please save me from a trip to a shopping mall.

I think when it comes to enjoying life, you have to find out what makes you happy and allow yourself to spend money on that and save on those stuff that doesn’t matter to you. What makes you enjoy life might not be the same thing that makes someone else happy.

[jfer_rose]

I think I'm saying the same thing as @Plina but in different words: everyone values things differently. What is important to you may not be important to me. The important thing is to spend money on things that are important to you, and save money on things that aren't.

There are MANY things I don't spend money on that a typical person does, but I'm thriving, not suffering. That's because I do spend money on the things that matter to me.

[ketchup]

If you think what you see on here now is extreme, what people were talking about five years ago would leave you shook. Lol.

Seriously.  I remember posting my budget in 2012 and feeling the need to justify $100/mo on food for myself.  Oh how the turntables...

[wageslave23]

Start with cutting things down to the cheapest essentials,  then after giving yourself time to adjust, start slowly adding back the things that you want.  Just like an elimination diet in order to see what works best for you.  I've found that "the best things in life are free" is actually true. 

And I would try going way more frugal than most on here to start.  Then find your essentials to a happy life.

*I've never paid more than $150 for a coat and I've never had one wear out.  My oldest one is going on 15 yrs.  Just an example.  Buy the cheaper version, if it works out great, if not then go up in quality next time.

**I gave up all tv and internet for a couple years, then decided that internet was an essential to me so I added it back.  A couple years later I added netflix.  I certainly don't need netflix, and it's debatable whether it makes my life better, but that's where I'm at now.

[bmjohnson35]

When I was working and in save/invest mode, I found myself being too frugal at times.  Now that I have been trying out early retirement for a while, I find myself trying to optimize.  I'm still frugal at heart, but now I will spend more when I think it adds enough value and/or joy.  For example, when I think back, there were times where I was too frugal during vacation.  I will still seek out low prices and good value going forward, but when a unique tour or higher priced activity comes up that I think we will really enjoy, I will go ahead and spend the money. 

I agree that choosing to be frugal vs. having to be frugal, due to necessity, feels very different psychologically.  Humans are often irrational beings, despite the fact that we rationalize a lot of our choices (good and bad).  It's funny how the human mind works. 

[Jenny Wren]

I don't draw the line anywhere between being frugal and living my best life, as they are one and the same. Frugal isn't the same as cheap, but to an outsider that doesn't know my income, my value and ethics framework, my personal ideas of fun, and my overall life missions I guess I could look too frugal or maybe even cheap.

For example, I don't buy new clothing, ever. And I mend everything until it is only fit for a rag bin. This looks cheap, but it brings me joy. My clothing values are function over form, and not contributing to the many issues with modern clothing production and quality. I could care less what others think when they see me. I love looking at the variety of multi-colored patches on my favorite pants. I always change up thread color just so the mending shows because it makes me happy to see it. I get clothing from thrift store, from hand-me-arounds, or via my local free and gift economies that I participate in.

If I need or want something, I rarely go out and buy it. Part of the fun of ownership for me is anticipation of ownership and finding creative solutions for acquiring, just as much as it is in the actual possession of the item.

One place I can easily splurge is dining out. But when we do it too much I stop getting the dopamine hit from it. So now we plan for no more than one meal out a month, and instead come up with creative alternatives like picnics or potlucks. Now when we do go out about once a month it is exciting and easily 10 times more enjoyable compared to the days of doing it every couple of nights. Minimize dopamine hits and then even a small hit will be amazing.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that my best life may look spartan and miserable to you, while yours could look stressful and complicated to me. It's very individualized.

[DaMa]

I figured out my frugal level by cutting back until I didn't like it.  Dropping cable and using Netflix and DVDs from the library turned out to be positive.  Not going out to eat for a month sucked.  I recommend doing a no spend month.  See how low you can go.  Pay attention to what you really miss vs what you don't.  I did a buy no clothes for a year challenge.  Now I rarely buy clothes.  Challenge yourself to try, push it until it hurts, then take a step back to where it's comfortable, but not back to where you were.

[Fishindude]

I shake me head when I see people living in expensive late model or new homes who keep the thermostat rather high in the summer and low in the winter for fear of a high utility bill.
Have a few family members that operate this way.

[Metalcat]

Where do you draw the line between being frugal and not living your best life? I try to be as economical as possible but I want to enjoy life as well. I see a lot of people on here that seem to, for me anyway, go to far. They make themselves suffer just to save a buck. To me, that isn't a life well lived. All observations and opinions are welcome.......

Really?

I've been here every day for years and I see very, very few people who go "too far" and make themselves miserable with frugality.

I see far more people who make themselves miserable by working for way too long to try and support spending levels well above the median American income.

As for your actual question, how do people draw the line?

Well, those of us living our best lives watch carefully how spending affects us. We cut something and see if it increases or decreases our happiness. We contemplate what we're really looking to get our of spending, and contemplate if there is a reasonable way to get the same thing for less.

Very often, the less expensive life is the superior life. It's pretty convenient. I don't live this way to "save a buck", I can actually afford quite a bit more, and have no idea how I will spend the extra few million I don't need in retirement. I live this way because it's awesome.

If you feel deprived, you are doing it wrong.

Can you give an example of a common frugality here that you think is too extreme? I honestly can't think of anything that comes up often.

[uniwelder]

I shake me head when I see people living in expensive late model or new homes who keep the thermostat rather high in the summer and low in the winter for fear of a high utility bill.
Have a few family members that operate this way.

I’m having trouble connecting your comment to the OP’s question. It sounds like you’re talking about people trying to live above their means, which is not quite at all the same as what I think this topic is about.

[Omy]

The eye rolls I used to get when people realized I had a 10 year old phone used to crack me up. That thing was a work horse. I hated trading it in because I didn't want to spend 3 days learning how to use a new phone. And I had been grandfathered into a great phone plan. And it had saved me thousands of dollars over a decade of use.

I also prefer to wear comfy clothes past their typical life span. It's not that I'm afraid to spend money...it's that I HATE shopping. And hate returning things when they don't fit. When I find shoes that I like, I buy 2 pair so I can shop in my closet when the first pair is worn out.

Others may view this behavior as too frugal, but it really does make me happier to keep using something than to dump it if it's still useful.

[PDXTabs]

That's a person decision based on your values and your life circumstances.

I probably spend more money on food (at home), coffee (outside my home), and underwear than most posters around here. Maybe cell phones too (Nexux 4, Nexux 5, iPhone SE, Pixel 3a, Pixel 5a).

I probably spend less money on beer or wine.

It's about what you value.

For decades I drove the most mustachian cars you could image. Now I drive a 2014 Ford Focus hatchback that I purchased new. You are allowed to change your mind.

[nessness]

I lurk on the Leanfire subreddit occasionally, and you see quite a few posts from people who've cut their expenses down to a point where they're miserable and some rarely even leave the house. And people mostly tell them to stay the course.

This forum, on the other hand, tends to support being thoughtful about your expenses moreso than cutting them down as much as humanly possible.

In general, I would say that the trick is to figure out which expenses you can cut that will have a neutral or positive effect on your happiness, and that this may take some trial and error to figure out.

[Metalcat]

I shake me head when I see people living in expensive late model or new homes who keep the thermostat rather high in the summer and low in the winter for fear of a high utility bill.
Have a few family members that operate this way.

I’m having trouble connecting your comment to the OP’s question. It sounds like you’re talking about people trying to live above their means, which is not quite at all the same as what I think this topic is about.

Yeah, not being able to afford your bills is different from choosing to cut your costs.

Although some people do choose to keep their temperature closer to that of outside. MMM had an article about this. Keeping the house temperature closer to outside makes it more comfortable to go outside, so you're less likely to just stay stuck inside all day.

So it can be a lifestyle choice.

[YttriumNitrate]

In my experience, the spend vs. reward relationship basically mimics the standard risk vs. reward curve, so with my frugality I generally try to be where I get 75-90% of the reward (blue-chip large cap to mid-cap funds in the image below).


As an example, a while back a group of friends were planing a vacation to Hawaii. Several of them stayed right on the beach at nice resort where the rooms were $500 a night. My wife and I stayed two blocks from the beach where the rooms were $120 a night.

[moof]

I'm out about 2.5 years out from pulling the plug.  When looking in the rear view mirror my regrets are around:

• Buying a new car straight out of college.  That was dumb.
• Buying too much crap food, and to this day still not eating as well as I should be.
• Succumbing to FOMO and buying a house a year after getting married, we timed the 2008 peak perfectly.  Generally I think owning a home has been neither good or bad as such.
• By my nature I fret too much over optimizing small purchases, and not enough over big ones (common cognitive bias).

I can think of no significant spot where I wish I have been a bigger spender.  A lot of my generally frugal ways allow me to have power in other parts of my life by always having room in my budget and cash reserves on hand such as:

• Obviously that I have FIRE planned for age 47, and helped a buddy figure out the retirement mechanics will let him retire at 54.
• Bought my last (used) car for cash that had been set aside for it, allowing me to jump on a good deal
• Helped my sister with cash a few times when she was desperate, and it was barely a blip for us
• Braces for my kids overbite issues was relative pocket change and was a zero stress event
• My kid has a college fund I would have killed for, with about 2 new cars worth of cash in there by his 9th birthday, and the kid's biggest gripe is having to come up with a list of birthday present ideas because he really doesn't have mass consumerism burned into him

Frugality is not just a suffer vs. fun thing.  My preferred solo vacations are long bike trips that end up being maybe $30-50/day in out of pocket costs tops (if you ignore my spendypants bike collection).  My wife and kid like us to go on occasional Disney trips that run at least $500/day for a family of 3, and mostly don't do a ton for me.  We budget for it, don't stress over geyser of cash exiting our wallets, and there is good family harmony as a result.  Money well spent on a facepunch worthy trip.  I then go back to fretting over the prices of store brand groceries and generally being a cheapskate for the other 51 weeks of the year.
Being frugal and having cash on hand is hugely powerful, which brings huge rewards beyond the temporary dopamine hit from buying ever more crap.

[Khaetra]

I don't think there's anything wrong with being frugal.  An example is a cheese I like.  At the regular grocery store it's $5 but at Walmart it's $3.  For the same cheese!  So I get to have something I enjoy a lot and save some money.  My workout/bum around the house clothes are mens athletic shorts (delicious deep pockets!) and t-shirts.  I paid less than $30 for 3 of each a number of years ago (clearance) vs. paying for one item each off the women's rack (with no deep pockets) for close to the same amount.  I keep my weight in tight check so if I buy something I can wear it for years (like my jeans, which I've had for 5).

I will spend good money on some things, like shoes, trips and food on said trip.  I don't eat out, I make my own coffee and I just don't buy a lot in general but when I do spend on something I make sure it's good quality, will last a long time and if I spend some time researching and checking prices if I can save a few bucks, even better.

[moof]

I shake me head when I see people living in expensive late model or new homes who keep the thermostat rather high in the summer and low in the winter for fear of a high utility bill.
Have a few family members that operate this way.

I’m having trouble connecting your comment to the OP’s question. It sounds like you’re talking about people trying to live above their means, which is not quite at all the same as what I think this topic is about.

Yeah, not being able to afford your bills is different from choosing to cut your costs.

Although some people do choose to keep their temperature closer to that of outside. MMM had an article about this. Keeping the house temperature closer to outside makes it more comfortable to go outside, so you're less likely to just stay stuck inside all day.

So it can be a lifestyle choice.

+1!  We embrace the prevailing temps within reason, letting the house go down to ~64-66 in winter, and ~78 in summer.  When you build yourself up to a little temperature tolerance you can often wear the same workout clothes from about 50F-95F to go for a run or bike ride.  If you keep the house at 72 all year long you lose some of that natural adaptation.  You also lose out on all the fresh air from keeping the house opened up for large swaths of Spring/Fall and more occasional moderate days during Summer/Winter.  I'll take 80F with a nice breeze through the house over 72 and air conditioned any day.

[Weisass]

For decades I drove the most mustachian cars you could image. Now I drive a 2014 Ford Focus hatchback that I purchased new. You are allowed to change your mind.

Sort of off topic, but genuinely curious. Your bio says you are 38, and you say you drove mustachian cars for decades before you bought your 2014 car new….how is that mathematically possible?

[PDXTabs]

For decades I drove the most mustachian cars you could image. Now I drive a 2014 Ford Focus hatchback that I purchased new. You are allowed to change your mind.

Sort of off topic, but genuinely curious. Your bio says you are 38, and you say you drove mustachian cars for decades before you bought your 2014 car new….how is that mathematically possible?

I new someone would call me on that. I guess that strictly speaking I drove mustachian cars starting in May of 1999 and stopped in May of 2014 for a total of 1.5 decades. But pretty soon this 2014 is going to be mustachian again.

[Cranky]

I think the better question is - what is your “best life”? Mine is not so much about buying things.

We have a comfortable place to live, plenty of good food, lots of books to read, plenty to do…

[Weisass]

For decades I drove the most mustachian cars you could image. Now I drive a 2014 Ford Focus hatchback that I purchased new. You are allowed to change your mind.

Sort of off topic, but genuinely curious. Your bio says you are 38, and you say you drove mustachian cars for decades before you bought your 2014 car new….how is that mathematically possible?

I new someone would call me on that. I guess that strictly speaking I drove mustachian cars starting in May of 1999 and stopped in May of 2014 for a total of 1.5 decades. But pretty soon this 2014 is going to be mustachian again.

Not trying to call out exactly, we are just the same age and I couldn’t make the math work! Carry on!

[cannotWAIT]

As an example, a while back a group of friends were planing a vacation to Hawaii. Several of them stayed right on the beach at nice resort where the rooms were $500 a night. My wife and I stayed two blocks from the beach where the rooms were $120 a night.

This perfectly illustrates "it depends." For many years we rented at house at the same small beach town every summer. The first few years we spent two weeks each year in houses two blocks from the beach. Then one year we stayed for one week at a house that cost twice as much that was right on the beach. I decided I would rather spend one week right on the beach than two weeks off of it, because every time I looked out the window I felt all mellow and beachy, whereas in the other houses I only really felt the beach vibe for the few hours when I was physically on it. Was I spendy to stay right on the beach? Was I miserably frugal to only stay for one week? I would say I figured out what I valued most that I could obtain while still living within my means.

[ketchup]

As an example, a while back a group of friends were planing a vacation to Hawaii. Several of them stayed right on the beach at nice resort where the rooms were $500 a night. My wife and I stayed two blocks from the beach where the rooms were $120 a night.

This perfectly illustrates "it depends." For many years we rented at house at the same small beach town every summer. The first few years we spent two weeks each year in houses two blocks from the beach. Then one year we stayed for one week at a house that cost twice as much that was right on the beach. I decided I would rather spend one week right on the beach than two weeks off of it, because every time I looked out the window I felt all mellow and beachy, whereas in the other houses I only really felt the beach vibe for the few hours when I was physically on it. Was I spendy to stay right on the beach? Was I miserably frugal to only stay for one week? I would say I figured out what I valued most that I could obtain while still living within my means.

That's just efficiency and optimization at work, which is definitely a piece of frugality.  As MMM says: "Efficiency is the highest form of beauty."

[Radagast]

After two years of working full time, I realized that what I really needed was time! I can be pretty happy on pretty much any amount of money, but not if I spend 70 hours a week getting ready for, commuting to, being at, and recovering from a job. Shacks and cabins are fun, and so are mansions and vacation homes. Sports cars are fun, and so are sporty beaters. Playing cards and board games and reading are as fun as expensive hobbies. Saving a buck doesn't cause suffering in pretty much any case, but losing a decade does!

[American GenX]

OP has me laughing thinking that being frugal means you aren't enjoying life.

I also don't think you are losing a decade just because you have a job.  I've managed to enjoy the last few decades despite working full time.

[Ron Scott]

I have a different concept of being frugal in retirement than many people. I see it as tied to your withdrawal rate.

Spending 4-5% of your invested assets is spending lavishly; under 3% is frugal territory.

One man gathers with another man spills: One man’s frugal is another man’s lavish.

Yesterday I saw a man in a parking lot mall—probably 70 years old, with a stubble beard, washed out white T-shirt, cheap baggy jeans, and what appeared to be his college-years’ Adidas—step into a new Benz AMG GT Black and drive away. Did he live frugally or lavishly? We have no idea…

[namasteyall]

I make the primary focus ethics. If you care at all about things like the environment, human rights, animal rights, etc, then acting accordingly eliminates the vast majority of consumer spending. My definition of "living my best life" would always involve moving closer to my ideals, which would never involve increased consumption and all the pollution, garbage, deaths, slavery, child labor, etc that go along with that.

Appreciate your posts and their logic! My behavior is similar. Always, I wonder what if most lived like that. There would be very little pollution, garbage, waste, unnecessary production, etc. Or the need to work and work.

[Metalcat]

I have a different concept of being frugal in retirement than many people. I see it as tied to your withdrawal rate.

Spending 4-5% of your invested assets is spending lavishly; under 3% is frugal territory.

One man gathers with another man spills: One man’s frugal is another man’s lavish.

Yesterday I saw a man in a parking lot mall—probably 70 years old, with a stubble beard, washed out white T-shirt, cheap baggy jeans, and what appeared to be his college-years’ Adidas—step into a new Benz AMG GT Black and drive away. Did he live frugally or lavishly? We have no idea…

Except OP is talking about pre-FIRE numbers, not WR.

They're trying to balance cutting spending to reach FI with enjoying their life now.
Everyone needs to figure this balance out for themselves.

However, in contrast to your point, there are a lot of us who would not inflate their lifestyle in proportion to their wealth. I live my ideal life, if I wanted to spend more, I would. If I wanted to spend A LOT more, I would. I am frugal because my best life is frugal, not because I didn't want to slave at my job anymore.

So for many of us, it's not relative.

[Ron Scott]

I have a different concept of being frugal in retirement than many people. I see it as tied to your withdrawal rate.

Spending 4-5% of your invested assets is spending lavishly; under 3% is frugal territory.

One man gathers with another man spills: One man’s frugal is another man’s lavish.

Yesterday I saw a man in a parking lot mall—probably 70 years old, with a stubble beard, washed out white T-shirt, cheap baggy jeans, and what appeared to be his college-years’ Adidas—step into a new Benz AMG GT Black and drive away. Did he live frugally or lavishly? We have no idea…

Except OP is talking about pre-FIRE numbers, not WR.

They're trying to balance cutting spending to reach FI with enjoying their life now.
Everyone needs to figure this balance out for themselves.

However, in contrast to your point, there are a lot of us who would not inflate their lifestyle in proportion to their wealth. I live my ideal life, if I wanted to spend more, I would. If I wanted to spend A LOT more, I would. I am frugal because my best life is frugal, not because I didn't want to slave at my job anymore.

So for many of us, it's not relative.

I actually agree with you. I am not a fan of “living up” to my means at all—let alone above my means. Running optimistic calculations to determine the highest amount I could possibly spend without going broke is anathema to me.

I live very frugally in relation to my means and am very happy with my spending decisions.

[OtherJen]

People can sometimes sound a little cheap when they talk about food, which is literally the most important thing for survival. If all of someone’s food comes from discount chain grocery stores, they’re probably not eating much local produce that was picked when ripe with developed flavors and nutrients. No need to be wasteful on grocery spending, but the goal of a good life shouldn’t be to eat sawdust just because it’s cheap. Not only for health, but also because of how much joy good food brings.

Umm, where I live there is no fresh local produce for six months of the year.  Aldi is a decent option for fresh, although it's all traveled a good distance no matter where you shop (I'll agree that Walmart is terrible). Frozen fruit and veggies are a far cry from "sawdust".

Ha, yes. We don’t all live in California. Those of us in harsher northern climates do well to eat with the local seasons, including foods preserved at peak nutrition.

Fresh local produce is effectively non-existent in Michigan during the 6-month frost-freeze-snow half of the year. Aldi and Meijer do a good job keeping us in affordable fresh produce during the off-season, and of course things like apples, hard squashes, root vegetables, and tubers have long shelf lives. Frozen berries and greenhouse cherry tomatoes grown in the neighboring Canadian province are much tastier (and probably more nutritious) than farm-grown versions flown in from S. America.

[Radagast]

People can sometimes sound a little cheap when they talk about food, which is literally the most important thing for survival. If all of someone’s food comes from discount chain grocery stores, they’re probably not eating much local produce that was picked when ripe with developed flavors and nutrients. No need to be wasteful on grocery spending, but the goal of a good life shouldn’t be to eat sawdust just because it’s cheap. Not only for health, but also because of how much joy good food brings.

Umm, where I live there is no fresh local produce for six months of the year.  Aldi is a decent option for fresh, although it's all traveled a good distance no matter where you shop (I'll agree that Walmart is terrible). Frozen fruit and veggies are a far cry from "sawdust".

Ha, yes. We don’t all live in California. Those of us in harsher northern climates do well to eat with the local seasons, including foods preserved at peak nutrition.

Fresh local produce is effectively non-existent in Michigan during the 6-month frost-freeze-snow half of the year. Aldi and Meijer do a good job keeping us in affordable fresh produce during the off-season, and of course things like apples, hard squashes, root vegetables, and tubers have long shelf lives. Frozen berries and greenhouse cherry tomatoes grown in the neighboring Canadian province are much tastier (and probably more nutritious) than farm-grown versions flown in from S. America.

Yeah, not to gang up, but I was also put off by this a little. I am from a cold dry place where there was hard frost until June and after August, less than a 100 day growing season on average (probably 140 now, mid-May to early October, thanks global warming!). Even a greenhouse could only extend that a month, and 90%+ of all the water to grow vegetables required pumping from an aquifer for irrigation. Fresh food was only an option six weeks a year! Where I am now is a little better, but still heavily reliant on produce from hundreds of miles away as the only alternative to no perishable produce at all.

[Dicey]

For me, the line has always been that cheap is when your choices mean you're not carrying your own weight, or you're imposing on people. If my frugal choices inconvenience others, that's cheap. Mind you, I mostly don't have spendy friends, but for example, if I choose to go out with friends for a meal, I'm not going to order the cheapest thing on the menu, then quibble and pout If I have to put in a penny more than my "fair share". If I'm driving somewhere with a friend, I don't ask for gas money. Some day, one of my friends will drive me somewhere, and it all evens out. IMO, half the fun of being frugal is doing it unobtrusively. Stealth frugality, that's my jam.

[Imma]

People can sometimes sound a little cheap when they talk about food, which is literally the most important thing for survival. If all of someone’s food comes from discount chain grocery stores, they’re probably not eating much local produce that was picked when ripe with developed flavors and nutrients. No need to be wasteful on grocery spending, but the goal of a good life shouldn’t be to eat sawdust just because it’s cheap. Not only for health, but also because of how much joy good food brings.

Umm, where I live there is no fresh local produce for six months of the year.  Aldi is a decent option for fresh, although it's all traveled a good distance no matter where you shop (I'll agree that Walmart is terrible). Frozen fruit and veggies are a far cry from "sawdust".

Ha, yes. We don’t all live in California. Those of us in harsher northern climates do well to eat with the local seasons, including foods preserved at peak nutrition.

Fresh local produce is effectively non-existent in Michigan during the 6-month frost-freeze-snow half of the year. Aldi and Meijer do a good job keeping us in affordable fresh produce during the off-season, and of course things like apples, hard squashes, root vegetables, and tubers have long shelf lives. Frozen berries and greenhouse cherry tomatoes grown in the neighboring Canadian province are much tastier (and probably more nutritious) than farm-grown versions flown in from S. America.

I'm sure this depends from area to area but where I live, Aldi and Lidl offer some of the best selections of fresh produce. The most expensive grocery store here is actually not that great for fresh produce (but their luxury baked goods are fine).

I don't get the impression that people here are cheap at all. I think the vast majority of people here spend more every year than I make and I still manage to save half an still live a life of luxury.

A lot of things I like are just cheap. My favourite breakfast is oatmeal. I like to bake my own bread. I buy locally grown organic oats and flour etc but I still don't spend a ton. We have insulated our house properly so we don't have to spend much to heat it. We get free fruit at work so I take maximum advantage of that - I don't buy fruit at all and I still eat lots of it.

[JJ-]

For me, the line has always been that cheap is when your choices mean you're not carrying your own weight, or you're imposing on people. If my frugal choices inconvenience others, that's cheap. Mind you, I mostly don't have spendy friends, but for example, if I choose to go out with friends for a meal, I'm not going to order the cheapest thing on the menu, then quibble and pout If I have to put in a penny more than my "fair share". If I'm driving somewhere with a friend, I don't ask for gas money. Some day, one of my friends will drive me somewhere, and it all evens out. IMO, half the fun of being frugal is doing it unobtrusively. Stealth frugality, that's my jam.

This aligns pretty closely with how I see cheap as well.

Funny how I see $20 as a lot of money to spend randomly, but when it comes to friends and time together there's no issue paying more than my fair share just to keep things simple and moving.

[MudPuppy]

Where do you draw the line between being frugal and not living your best life? I try to be as economical as possible but I want to enjoy life as well. I see a lot of people on here that seem to, for me anyway, go to far. They make themselves suffer just to save a buck. To me, that isn't a life well lived. All observations and opinions are welcome.......

Everyone decides for themselves what their baseline lifestyle is. We cut back where it doesn’t matter and hold firm where it does.

For an example, I’d rather have my pets (because of medical conditions and the normal maintenance care, we spend $500 a month on them) and work a few extra years than not have the enrichment we bring to each other’s lives. There are plenty of ways to reduce pet cost of ownership! Consider the type of pet- our birds cost far less to maintain than our dogs. Consider the size of our pets- our dogs are 70+ pounds which is a frugal “fail” since it means that both food and medicine cost more. Consider the price v quality of the food you give- I feed a specialty food from a smaller brand that which has remarkably similar profile to a specialty food made by a larger, mainstream company for at least 20 cents less a pound! Consider the cost/benefit of their preventative care. Get dogs from a rescue or shelter instead of a breeder, though this is for ethical rather than monetary reasons for me. We received dog DNA tests as a gag gift once and it turns out one of ours is actually an expensive purebred, and the other two are almost purebred of other breeds. The point is, we optimize what we can, but I wouldn’t trade my dogs for a shorter career.

[bmjohnson35]

I have a different concept of being frugal in retirement than many people. I see it as tied to your withdrawal rate.

Spending 4-5% of your invested assets is spending lavishly; under 3% is frugal territory.

One man gathers with another man spills: One man’s frugal is another man’s lavish.

Yesterday I saw a man in a parking lot mall—probably 70 years old, with a stubble beard, washed out white T-shirt, cheap baggy jeans, and what appeared to be his college-years’ Adidas—step into a new Benz AMG GT Black and drive away. Did he live frugally or lavishly? We have no idea…

Except OP is talking about pre-FIRE numbers, not WR.

They're trying to balance cutting spending to reach FI with enjoying their life now.
Everyone needs to figure this balance out for themselves.

However, in contrast to your point, there are a lot of us who would not inflate their lifestyle in proportion to their wealth. I live my ideal life, if I wanted to spend more, I would. If I wanted to spend A LOT more, I would. I am frugal because my best life is frugal, not because I didn't want to slave at my job anymore.

So for many of us, it's not relative.

Agreed.  We anticipate withdrawing even less next year since the spouse can start collecting SS at the beginning of the year.    If we were spending at a higher WR than planned, we would probably look to scale back, but we wouldn't consider spending more just because of a remaining balance of a budgeted WR.  Although I consider us frugal compared with most people we know, we still aren't frugal when compared to many on this forum.     

[AMandM]

Where do you draw the line between being frugal and not living your best life? I try to be as economical as possible but I want to enjoy life as well.

This is a recurrent discussion between me and my husband. Especially as we get older (we're 55), the tradeoff between time and money seems more and more acute. I tend not to mind spending time to save money as much as he does, because it's a challenge I enjoy; he would much rather get what he needs quickly with less regard to price, because he has way more other projects he'd rather spend his limited time on... especially as his awareness that his time is limited becomes more vivid with age.

[Dreamer40]

People can sometimes sound a little cheap when they talk about food, which is literally the most important thing for survival. If all of someone’s food comes from discount chain grocery stores, they’re probably not eating much local produce that was picked when ripe with developed flavors and nutrients. No need to be wasteful on grocery spending, but the goal of a good life shouldn’t be to eat sawdust just because it’s cheap. Not only for health, but also because of how much joy good food brings.

Umm, where I live there is no fresh local produce for six months of the year.  Aldi is a decent option for fresh, although it's all traveled a good distance no matter where you shop (I'll agree that Walmart is terrible). Frozen fruit and veggies are a far cry from "sawdust".

Ha, yes. We don’t all live in California. Those of us in harsher northern climates do well to eat with the local seasons, including foods preserved at peak nutrition.

Fresh local produce is effectively non-existent in Michigan during the 6-month frost-freeze-snow half of the year. Aldi and Meijer do a good job keeping us in affordable fresh produce during the off-season, and of course things like apples, hard squashes, root vegetables, and tubers have long shelf lives. Frozen berries and greenhouse cherry tomatoes grown in the neighboring Canadian province are much tastier (and probably more nutritious) than farm-grown versions flown in from S. America.

I'm sure this depends from area to area but where I live, Aldi and Lidl offer some of the best selections of fresh produce. The most expensive grocery store here is actually not that great for fresh produce (but their luxury baked goods are fine).

I don't get the impression that people here are cheap at all. I think the vast majority of people here spend more every year than I make and I still manage to save half an still live a life of luxury.

A lot of things I like are just cheap. My favourite breakfast is oatmeal. I like to bake my own bread. I buy locally grown organic oats and flour etc but I still don't spend a ton. We have insulated our house properly so we don't have to spend much to heat it. We get free fruit at work so I take maximum advantage of that - I don't buy fruit at all and I still eat lots of it.

I obviously phrased my response poorly. I’m really talking about the extreme end of the spectrum where people try to avoid spending money on food to the detriment to their health. I didn’t mean to imply that this is typical around here or that grocery store food is sawdust. But it’s an attitude I see occasionally among frugal people to take it too far. Like surviving only on beans and rice just to save a penny. The original question was about where the line is between being frugal and not living your best life. If you’re eating crap to save a penny when you have the option to eat better, you’re not living your best life. Food is the main thing keeping us alive so that’s the only area where it seems like being extreme about frugality can be really detrimental. I guess being too frugal about the car you drive could also be risky to one’s health and well-being if it’s so bad that it becomes a safety issue. Most people here seem pretty reasonable about these things, but I was trying to think of examples where people are not actually living their best lives in the name of frugality. Since that was the question…

[cannotWAIT]

For me one line would be when you start becoming ungenerous with friends. I come from a culture where people would almost come to blows over the right to pick up the check and I definitely absorbed that. I've known people who were chronic check-shirkers and I thought the damage they did to their relationships could not possibly have been worth the $30 they saved. Some things, like thrifting your clothes or keeping the house cooler in winter, are a matter of personal values where if it's worth it to you, it's worth it, and that's that. But I feel like cheaping out on your friends does nothing but harm to everyone involved. It's just objectively stupid and wrong.

[Chris22]

As an example, a while back a group of friends were planing a vacation to Hawaii. Several of them stayed right on the beach at nice resort where the rooms were $500 a night. My wife and I stayed two blocks from the beach where the rooms were $120 a night.

See from a high level, without knowing any more, this seems like it would be a good example of cheapness over frugality. Unless they were legitimately not able to afford it, if we invited a group on vacation and one couple elected to stay somewhere else because it was a lot cheaper, that would be off putting. Did you not hang out with them at the pool, or resort facilities?  Did you sneak in to the resort to hang out with them?  When everyone else was having a drink at the hotel bar at the end of the day were you not with the group because of frugality?  Usually one goes to a resort to spend significant time at the resort; if you came along but didn’t stay at the resort are you really on the same trip? 

Maybe you just met up on the beach or for hikes or something and then went your separate ways and that was planned, but that’s not how I’ve done that kind of vacation with friends before.