What Life Is Like When You Make Less Than $15 an Hour

[Dicey]

Not going to read the article, but I did read Barbara Ehrenreich's "Nickel and Dimed". I felt so damned sorry for everyone she encountered that it made me sad for a very long time. I discussed it with a very successful friend, who put a completely different spin on it for me. Basically, he said, if every single person pursued every single educational opportunity that this country afforded them, most of them would make far more minimum wage.
 
This is an oversimplification, but on the whole, I think he's right. How many people could have improved their lot in life by simply going to (or staying in) school (even a shitty public school has opportunities for those willing to strive) and doing what it takes to avoid starting a family until they are mature and secure enough to do so without gov't assistance.

We're mustachians, we KNOW you can live well on very little. The real question is if we teach others these skills to help them lead better lives. Easy question, difficult answers.

[arebelspy]

Not going to read the article, but I did read Barbara Ehrenreich's "Nickel and Dimed". I felt so damned sorry for everyone she encountered that it made me sad for a very long time. I discussed it with a very successful friend, who put a completely different spin on it for me. Basically, he said, if every single person pursued every single educational opportunity that this country afforded them, most of them would make far more minimum wage.

How?  What jobs would they get?

You're telling me if every person that didn't go to college also went to college and got a degree, there would be jobs for them?

[arebelspy]

The Minimum Wage Required to Rent a Two Bedroom Apartment In Each State: http://lifehacker.com/the-minimum-wage-required-to-rent-a-two-bedroom-apartme-1707558588

This seems relevant.

It can be tough when you can only afford a studio, but have a family to support.  Even with two people working minimum wage jobs (or even above min. wage), life is expensive.

[mm1970]

The NYT did an incredible profile of a Starbucks worker whose schedule was so unpredictable that she ended up working until 10pm and coming back at 5am the next morning - while commuting 2 hours each way by bus, while having to find scrapped together childcare at all hours. She saved up money to enroll in college but had to drop out because she doesn't have a predictable schedule.

And that's progress!  Thanks to highly educated and talented people, we have these AWESOME computer programs that look at sales, and predict by date, day, and time how busy a Starbucks is going to be - so the fun computer program tells you exactly how many people you need and when.  That's why the crazy hours and schedules and short shifts.

Yay.  That was an eye opening part of that piece for me.  Company can save money this way.

[mm1970]

http://www.vagabomb.com/This-Comic-Will-Forever-Change-the-Way-You-Look-at-Privilege/

I think I posted this exact thing upthread.

Or somewhere else on this forum.

[Another Reader]

Starbuck's is also paying to send their employees through ASU's on-line degree program.  Not sure what the requirements are, but it sounds like a good way  for someone with no tuition money to get a degree.

[AJ]

The NYT did an incredible profile of a Starbucks worker whose schedule was so unpredictable that she ended up working until 10pm and coming back at 5am the next morning - while commuting 2 hours each way by bus, while having to find scrapped together childcare at all hours. She saved up money to enroll in college but had to drop out because she doesn't have a predictable schedule.

And that's progress!  Thanks to highly educated and talented people, we have these AWESOME computer programs that look at sales, and predict by date, day, and time how busy a Starbucks is going to be - so the fun computer program tells you exactly how many people you need and when.  That's why the crazy hours and schedules and short shifts.

Yay.  That was an eye opening part of that piece for me.  Company can save money this way.

The only time I was ever able to achieve full time hours in a low wage job was when I became the supervisor and made the schedule myself (and even then, the owners were kinda pissed I was giving myself so many hours). I was expected to be available to work any days, any hours, so a second job was not an option. I get the feeling many low wage workers are in this same boat. They aren't allowed to work more, even when they desperately want to.

[Dorje]

How do you guys feel about the millions of Mexicans working in the USA temporarily, many illegally, and sending money back to their families living in Mexico? I love Mexico and like Mexicans a lot, they are more compassionate than Americans for the most part, but I'm not sure using them as a source of cheap labor in the USA is doing anything to help with our issues with income inequality or employment.

[mm1970]

How do you guys feel about the millions of Mexicans working in the USA temporarily, many illegally, and sending money back to their families living in Mexico? I love Mexico and like Mexicans a lot, they are more compassionate than Americans for the most part, but I'm not sure using them as a source of cheap labor in the USA is doing anything to help with our issues with income inequality or employment.

That's a whole 'nother topic.  Many many opinions and platitudes:

They do the jobs Americans don't want to do, for less.

Who wants to pick strawberries 12 hours a day?

THey are taking our jobs?

What's the truth?  Probably a little bit of all of that.

My observation locally (So Cal), is that when I drive by the homeless shelter, I see a lot of Mexicans on the other side of the street, which is the "day labor" line, looking for work.  I see a lot of 20-something white guys at the homeless shelter, looking for a bed and a free meal.

It creates a lot of challenges locally and for the schools.  75% of my son's school are on free/ reduced lunch.  >50% are bussed in.  43% of the parents of the students did not finish high school.  >60% are English learners (students).  Communication is difficult (not many people bilingual).  A fair number of the parents are illegal and cannot/ do not/ should not drive.

It presents a lot of challenges to the school and the teachers, who have to figure out how to teach two vastly different groups.  The English learners at our school score at the bottom - if you lined up the scores of the EL's for the 10 schools in our district, we are 9/10.

If you line up the scores of the native English speakers at our school with the other schools, we score as well as the best schools.

[MoneyCat]

Regarding the original article in this thread, well, that's the life I lived for most of my life until recently.  You really can't judge these people until you have actually lived it.  I remember one point living in a rented room in a shared apartment in Newark with a couple of strangers (one of whom I am pretty sure was dealing drugs out of the apartment) and trying to survive on $10/hour while finishing my education so I could get a better paying job.  It's tough.  And barely scraping by for such a long period of time messes with your mind.  Any time I got a windfall, I spent that shit as fast as I could before it disappeared.  Your brain craves dopamine so much when you are horribly depressed that you end up doing really stupid things like drinking alcohol, smoking cigarettes, buy expensive game systems you can't afford, eating high-fat/high-carb food with no nutritional value, etc.  The depression is really what does people in when they are poor and they respond to it by becoming really anti-social and lethargic.  It is so hard to improve yourself when you are clinically depressed and unable to get any medication or therapy for it.

[BEN_BANNED]

Not going to read the article, but I did read Barbara Ehrenreich's "Nickel and Dimed". I felt so damned sorry for everyone she encountered that it made me sad for a very long time. I discussed it with a very successful friend, who put a completely different spin on it for me. Basically, he said, if every single person pursued every single educational opportunity that this country afforded them, most of them would make far more minimum wage.

How?  What jobs would they get?

You're telling me if every person that didn't go to college also went to college and got a degree, there would be jobs for them?

There are plenty of programs offering tuition assistance/free training for apprenticeship programs in the skilled trades. Of course one would have to possibly get their hands dirty from time to time nor would it have the "prestige" of accumulating 6 figures in student debt while attaining that Gender Studies degree.

Society at large needs get off the "victimization" gravy train and grow a set( figuratively speaking).

[r3dt4rget]

The Minimum Wage Required to Rent a Two Bedroom Apartment In Each State: http://lifehacker.com/the-minimum-wage-required-to-rent-a-two-bedroom-apartme-1707558588

This seems relevant.

It can be tough when you can only afford a studio, but have a family to support.  Even with two people working minimum wage jobs (or even above min. wage), life is expensive.

Life is quite cheap. It's a luxurious life that is expensive in terms of making minimum wage. The problem in America is that everyone wants luxury. We've spoiled ourselves with the riches this country has to offer those who can achieve success. People feel they are entitled to their own private residence, a car, internet, convenience foods, etc. If you are able to work full-time, your basic life needs are covered by minimum wage. I would go so far as to say real poverty doesn't even exist in America.

[arebelspy]

Heh.  Okay.

[darkadams00]

what ive noticed a lot of posters have missed is the fact someone has to be at the bottom. Sure you can work your way up and you don't have to be at the bottom but what about the person who doesn't? what you're inevitability saying is too bad.I think the floor for labour I.e mininum wage needs to be a livable wage that is indexed to cpi or we need to come up with something more creative then what it is. im not convinced that the us min wage is adequate but I could be wrong

So an unskilled job should indiscriminately pay a teen who has nearly no financial obligations the same as an adult who has a family to feed? The teen is at the stage in life where he is limited in his job choices by age (< 18), location (lives with parents), education (still in high school), life experience/maturity (again, < 18), and job experience (first job since s/he just turned 16). The adult might have options to move upward, most of which are dependent on his/her previous and current choices, not because of age-related factors. Is there not an expectation that there will be some jobs that are suited to the needs of the teenage worker and pay accordingly?

The paragraph's intent was to demonstrate the difference between the needs of the typical teen working an unskilled part-time job vs the needs of the typical adult working that same job. The first sentence was a bit off the mark apparently based on responses.

My point was that trying to inflate the wage of that job to meet the needs of the adult instead of getting that adult into a more suitable occupation seems to be the wrong plan. If we artificially inflate that job wage, then we are, in essence, throwing away money to kids who really don't need it for current living expenses. (I'm not arguing college expenses, teen parents, independent teens, etc here. Those teens always existed and will continue to do so. They would have had difficulties in 1990, 2000, 2010, and 2020.)

In 1991, I worked a non-union, warehouse job for a while that paid $11.05/hour. At the time, minimum wage was $4.25/hour. So that's a factor of 2.6 in a LCOL area. The difference? Moving thousands of pounds of freight on the 3rd shift vs flipping burgers (did that as well from 16-18 yrs old). Had to be 18 years old for the warehouse. Had to be 16 years old to flip burgers. At the same time, high school dropouts could go to work in nearby textile mills for $10.50/hour. In those two towns, the loss of manufacturing/heavy-duty blue collar work pushed workers into situations with lower wages and lower hours. The mills had more women than men, and those women either became unemployed or employed at a lower wage/lower hours as well since they didn't have the education to get a minimal secretary/office position. Those adults pushed out a lot of high school kids since the adults were often preferred by employers. So high schoolers could get jobs, but the jobs were harder to find, and only the ones who really tried hard got the jobs. The marginal kids tried a bit and then quit looking. In the 90's in my town, a teen was almost guaranteed a job within a week just by hitting a few doors. I didn't even know a teen to quit looking for a job because s/he "couldn't find one." Unheard of at the time.

Yes, this is anecdotal, but I wonder how this played out in other towns/cities where readily available blue-collar work moved out--textiles in the South, auto manufacturing in Michigan, manufacturing in the Rust Belt, mining in West Virginia, etc. Based on my limited experience and knowledge, I posit that this trumps the political arguments over the minimum wage to making a meaningful difference in economics. If teens and adults with equal skills compete for the same jobs, the adults will dominate because they have no other choice and will work harder to hang on to what little they have. Teen unemployment will continue to increase. And since those jobs don't require any more from the adult than the teen to do, they will continue to pay minimally, thus keeping those adults at a substandard economic level.

I would love to hear other folks' experiences and thoughts from other parts of the country.

[Albert]

There have been many threads of this sort and reading them I'm continuously amazed that some posters don't understand a difference between personal solutions and societal solutions. Personal advice given such as save, study, become an engineer or IT specialist, learn a valuable trade (plumber, for example) etc. is a good one on individual level, but we can't all succeed that way. If most people had a college degree with a "good" major it would be utterly useless for securing employment. Most jobs only require low or medium skills. There has to be some way to keep the level of life for the bottom half reasonable otherwise you are risking a major strife in a not too distant future. And remember due to advances in automation it is only likely to become worse...

[cerebus]

Heh.  Okay.

Well.... Yeah. You don't really have poverty in the way we have it here or in other even worse 3rd world countries. You can't compare anywhere in America to anywhere in Zimbabwe, you just can't. The difference is, America has enough domestic wealth to do something about the problem.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[The_path_less_taken]

I notice the smartphone has replaced the large tv as weapon of choice to beat the less fortunate

I enjoy the irony of someone bitching about poor people having smartphones, then complaining that they should be looking for work.

Tough to do that without Internet access and a phone number.

Who says that internet and phone require a smartphone.  Yes that makes it more convenient...but convenience is the privilege of those who can afford it.

A prepaid flip-phone to take essential work-hunt related calls can be had for peanuts compared to a smartphone.  Internet at most local libraries across the country is free.

Yep. I paid $18 bucks almost 9 years ago for mine.  It has Text/email/shitty pics, but they were sufficient for several bosses in demo and mystery shop gigs that required me to send pics and text/call them back during gigs.

The only downside is the looks of sheer amazement people give me when I yank it out. But I smile and tell them I spent less than $12 last month on my phone bill and they swallow that shit eating grin fairly promptly.

[arebelspy]

Heh.  Okay.

Well.... Yeah. You don't really have poverty in the way we have it here or in other even worse 3rd world countries. You can't compare anywhere in America to anywhere in Zimbabwe, you just can't. The difference is, America has enough domestic wealth to do something about the problem.

I 100% agree with that.  It's not on the same scale. 

But that doesn't mean it's helpful to dismiss the problems we do have.

[Another Reader]

We are not dismissing the problems.  We are saying handouts don't work and there is a better way.

What you younger people don't understand is that in the 1950's and early 1960's, NONE of this existed.  Rural poverty existed, and there was some urban poverty, but if you moved to the city, it was because you could find a job there.  The vast dependent underclass and the alcoholic and mentally ill homeless problem we have today developed over the last 50 years. 

The collapse of family structure, the illegal immigrants undermining employment and wages, and the welfare economy all contributed to the mess we have today.  Yes, it would be difficult, and some people would be hurt, but the only way to "fix" the problem is to address the root causes.

[arebelspy]

There's temporary solutions and long term solutions.  We should look at root causes, but we shouldn't ignore helping people in the meantime before those take effect (which will take decades, and generations, and be whole societal shifts).

Raising minimum wage, which has fallen on an inflation adjusted level, is not a "handout" in my opinion.

[EricL]

I'm a little lost on how adjusting the minimum wage to account for inflation is "immoral" or harmful.  If a bare bones wage in 1990 was $5 an hour for 40 hours then an inflation adjusted wage should be $8.75 an hour.  If such a wage didn't kill US industries in 1990 it won't kill them now.  And if raising the minimum wage is harmful it's at a level not doing it again allows inflation to correct the problem.  I should also note the work should be 40 hour weeks. Not these BS schedules at Wallyworld and Starbucks designed most workers are part time on wildly fluctuating schedules so the corporation doesn't have to pay benefits. 

The U.S. economy has a lot of issues but a minimum wage isn't one of them.  A real threat are faux John Gault CEOs who rape their companies of exorbitant pay and benefits in return for mediocre or just crappy leadership/management.  European economies have minimum wages and are doing just fine.  Their companies piss and moan too (sometimes justifiably) but by and large the owners and major stockholders live pretty large and the workers do OK. 

[APowers]

The Minimum Wage Required to Rent a Two Bedroom Apartment In Each State: http://lifehacker.com/the-minimum-wage-required-to-rent-a-two-bedroom-apartme-1707558588

This seems relevant.

It can be tough when you can only afford a studio, but have a family to support.  Even with two people working minimum wage jobs (or even above min. wage), life is expensive.

Relevant, yes. Accurate, no. Not even close; certainly not for my state.

[ChrisLansing]

We are not dismissing the problems.  We are saying handouts don't work and there is a better way.

What you younger people don't understand is that in the 1950's and early 1960's, NONE of this existed.  Rural poverty existed, and there was some urban poverty, but if you moved to the city, it was because you could find a job there.  The vast dependent underclass and the alcoholic and mentally ill homeless problem we have today developed over the last 50 years. 

The collapse of family structure, the illegal immigrants undermining employment and wages, and the welfare economy all contributed to the mess we have today.  Yes, it would be difficult, and some people would be hurt, but the only way to "fix" the problem is to address the root causes.

Actually, handouts do work.   They alleviate a portion of the misery associated with poverty.   That's why we do it.   

Poverty and the underclass existed, but those people got little help.   So no, they weren't dependent, they independent, but still poor and w/o much to alleviate their misery.   

Some of the "root causes" are not the fault of individual poor people.    Some are.   

We should raise the minimum wage because that's one of the root causes of poverty - a wage that has not kept pace with inflation.   

Some of us want to see more emphasis on individual decision making so that the poor aren't making their own lives worse with bad choices.    That does not mean it makes sense to  reduce or eliminate public assistance to the poor.   

[link_417]

The only time I was ever able to achieve full time hours in a low wage job was when I became the supervisor and made the schedule myself (and even then, the owners were kinda pissed I was giving myself so many hours). I was expected to be available to work any days, any hours, so a second job was not an option. I get the feeling many low wage workers are in this same boat. They aren't allowed to work more, even when they desperately want to.

That was the worst part for me when I had a low-wage job:  I was unhappy with my low pay and few hours but the required availability meant that I could not get a job on the side.  Luckily, the company I worked for was aware that college students comprised most of their workforce so they were willing to work around school schedules and I was able to get a two-year degree that lead to a desk job.  Unfortunately, not all businesses are that accommodating.

We should raise the minimum wage because that's one of the root causes of poverty - a wage that has not kept pace with inflation.   

It's pretty unbelievable to me that people are protesting a raise in the minimum wage, that seems like a no-brainer to me.  As a country, we decided to give most people (not all, sadly -- I'm not sure what the situation is for people who earn tips and don't receive minimum wage) a minimum wage to ensure a base standard of living.  Therefore, if the minimum wage has been outpaced by inflation, it needs to be raised or else having a minimum wage becomes useless.  If you want the minimum wage eliminated entirely, then that's another discussion altogether.

I live in a low COL area so $15/hr is sufficient for a single person to get a studio apartment in a crappy area, eat beans and rice with fresh fruit/veg and convenience foods (chocolate is my mood regulator!), drive a dinosaur, and save for retirement while paying down student loans.  If I lived in a place with a higher COL, I'm not sure how I would fare.

[MDM]

It's pretty unbelievable to me ... that seems like a no-brainer to me.

Certainly not the only time this or similar wording has been used (even in this very forum). 

Whether that type of wording is effective, however, is debatable.  Some people may react by trying to explain their contrary beliefs, others won't bother because they will assume anyone saying such a thing is too close-minded to listen.

It can be useful, if for nothing else than to exercise one's own brain, to state things such as "My hypothesis is that ______ is true.  But if it could be shown that ______, then my hypothesis would be incorrect."  If hypothesis is too high-falutin' then try "I think _____, but if someone could show me that ______ I would change my mind."

If one shows they are willing to listen to others' ideas, some others will listen to the first person's ideas.  And when that happens, often somebody learns something.

Again, not picking on the author personally, just using this as a good "for example."

[davisgang90]

The problem with an arbitrary minimum wage increase is that it will result in people being laid off and small businesses going out of business.  There is also the danger of people increasingly pricing themselves out of the labor market in favor of self-checkout options.

I know those things aren't popular to talk about but they are a reality of raising the rates rather than allowing the market to compensate based on the value provided. 

[MoneyCat]

Many of my students' parents live on minimum wage and they are able to supplement their income by selling illegal drugs and/or robbing people.  The free market is awesome!

[Dorje]

The problem with an arbitrary minimum wage increase is that it will result in people being laid off and small businesses going out of business. 

Probably not.

[arebelspy]

The problem with an arbitrary minimum wage increase is that it will result in people being laid off and small businesses going out of business. 

Probably not.

Agreed--this is an overblown theoretical concern that is brought up every min. wage increase and doesn't bear out in reality.

I know those things aren't popular to talk about but they are a reality of raising the rates rather than allowing the market to compensate based on the value provided.

The market (which is not completely free in America) has decided to pay as little as possible and pump extra profit to the owners who can lobby to keep wages down, get subsidies from the government, hold quasi-monopolies, etc.  Okay, fine, but I think we can do better.

[Albert]

Agreed--this is an overblown theoretical concern that is brought up every min. wage increase and doesn't bear out in reality.

Exactly. It costs a lot to hire anyone where I live, but still there is no luck of small and medium size businesses.

[Another Reader]

Market determined wages are driven by supply and demand.  If you remove a large part of the supply by deporting the bulk of the illegal immigrants that compete for these low paying jobs, you will drive the market minimum wage up.  If you then reduce and eventually remove the incentives for people not to work, you will likely go a long way to solving the problem. 

[APowers]

I live in a low COL area so $15/hr is sufficient for a single person to get a studio apartment in a crappy area, eat beans and rice with fresh fruit/veg and convenience foods (chocolate is my mood regulator!), drive a dinosaur, and save for retirement while paying down student loans.  If I lived in a place with a higher COL, I'm not sure how I would fare.

If Seattle counts as low COL, then sure. But even still-- glancing at Padmapper.com, it seems that you can get a 1 bedroom or studio apt for $1000/mo or less in Seattle proper, and if you live like we do (spending based on two parents, two kids, one SAHP, two cars, no TV, rarely eating out, not beans/rice), but were single and earning $15/hr, you'd do just fine and have money left over.

[BEN_BANNED]

Many of my students' parents live on minimum wage and they are able to supplement their income by selling illegal drugs and/or robbing people.  The free market is awesome!

That's the "Easy Money"mindset that many of the of the "poor" have. You could raise the minimum wage to $50 an hour and they'd still peddle drug to "get by".

[MoneyCat]

Many of my students' parents live on minimum wage and they are able to supplement their income by selling illegal drugs and/or robbing people.  The free market is awesome!

That's the "Easy Money"mindset that many of the of the "poor" have. You could raise the minimum wage to $50 an hour and they'd still peddle drug to "get by".

Nah, I'm pretty sure that fewer people would do that if they could live on the money they earn.  My students have told me flat-out all the time that they see no point to trying to be legit because they make more in one night from selling crack cocaine than they make in a month of working fast food or at Walmart. 

[link_417]

It's pretty unbelievable to me ... that seems like a no-brainer to me.

Certainly not the only time this or similar wording has been used (even in this very forum). 

Whether that type of wording is effective, however, is debatable.  Some people may react by trying to explain their contrary beliefs, others won't bother because they will assume anyone saying such a thing is too close-minded to listen.

It can be useful, if for nothing else than to exercise one's own brain, to state things such as "My hypothesis is that ______ is true.  But if it could be shown that ______, then my hypothesis would be incorrect."  If hypothesis is too high-falutin' then try "I think _____, but if someone could show me that ______ I would change my mind."

If one shows they are willing to listen to others' ideas, some others will listen to the first person's ideas.  And when that happens, often somebody learns something.

Again, not picking on the author personally, just using this as a good "for example."

While I agree with your overall stance of being open-minded (which I am; if having a firm belief causes someone to assume I'm closed-minded, then the assumption is their issue to sort out), I don't want to hijack the thread by responding to each point so I will just state that I disagree. 

I live in a low COL area so $15/hr is sufficient for a single person to get a studio apartment in a crappy area, eat beans and rice with fresh fruit/veg and convenience foods (chocolate is my mood regulator!), drive a dinosaur, and save for retirement while paying down student loans.  If I lived in a place with a higher COL, I'm not sure how I would fare.

If Seattle counts as low COL, then sure. But even still-- glancing at Padmapper.com, it seems that you can get a 1 bedroom or studio apt for $1000/mo or less in Seattle proper, and if you live like we do (spending based on two parents, two kids, one SAHP, two cars, no TV, rarely eating out, not beans/rice), but were single and earning $15/hr, you'd do just fine and have money left over.

The rice and beans is a temporary arrangement while I aggressively pay down my student loans :)  I chose to substitute most meat (and made a few other frugal decisions) in part of my quest to pay my student loans back in five years instead of ten and without sacrificing my savings rate.  I would be surprised if I could maintain the same savings and debt payment rates while living in a higher COL area; I think where I live has afforded me a choice rather than having to eat rice and beans as a necessity.

[BEN_BANNED]

Many of my students' parents live on minimum wage and they are able to supplement their income by selling illegal drugs and/or robbing people.  The free market is awesome!

That's the "Easy Money"mindset that many of the of the "poor" have. You could raise the minimum wage to $50 an hour and they'd still peddle drug to "get by".

Nah, I'm pretty sure that fewer people would do that if they could live on the money they earn.  My students have told me flat-out all the time that they see no point to trying to be legit because they make more in one night from selling crack cocaine than they make in a month of working fast food or at Walmart.

How many of these "poor students" have the latest generation IPhone and $200  basketball shoes?  Be honest now.

[MoneyCat]

Many of my students' parents live on minimum wage and they are able to supplement their income by selling illegal drugs and/or robbing people.  The free market is awesome!

That's the "Easy Money"mindset that many of the of the "poor" have. You could raise the minimum wage to $50 an hour and they'd still peddle drug to "get by".

Nah, I'm pretty sure that fewer people would do that if they could live on the money they earn.  My students have told me flat-out all the time that they see no point to trying to be legit because they make more in one night from selling crack cocaine than they make in a month of working fast food or at Walmart.

How many of these "poor students" have the latest generation IPhone and $200  basketball shoes?  Be honest now.

Those are easy to buy who you have lots of drug money and they feel they are necessary to be able to attract people of the opposite sex so they can have sex with them.  Seems logical.

[BEN_BANNED]

Many of my students' parents live on minimum wage and they are able to supplement their income by selling illegal drugs and/or robbing people.  The free market is awesome!

That's the "Easy Money"mindset that many of the of the "poor" have. You could raise the minimum wage to $50 an hour and they'd still peddle drug to "get by".

Nah, I'm pretty sure that fewer people would do that if they could live on the money they earn.  My students have told me flat-out all the time that they see no point to trying to be legit because they make more in one night from selling crack cocaine than they make in a month of working fast food or at Walmart.

How many of these "poor students" have the latest generation IPhone and $200  basketball shoes?  Be honest now.

Those are easy to buy who you have lots of drug money and they feel they are necessary to be able to attract people of the opposite sex so they can have sex with them.  Seems logical.

Yet these students qualify for free lunches, subsidized housing, healtcare, etc...

Raising the minimum wage or enacting another social engineering programing isn't going to eradicate the "gimmeedat" mentality that's prevalent in this country.

Teach a man to fish...

[MoneyCat]

Many of my students' parents live on minimum wage and they are able to supplement their income by selling illegal drugs and/or robbing people.  The free market is awesome!

That's the "Easy Money"mindset that many of the of the "poor" have. You could raise the minimum wage to $50 an hour and they'd still peddle drug to "get by".

Nah, I'm pretty sure that fewer people would do that if they could live on the money they earn.  My students have told me flat-out all the time that they see no point to trying to be legit because they make more in one night from selling crack cocaine than they make in a month of working fast food or at Walmart.

How many of these "poor students" have the latest generation IPhone and $200  basketball shoes?  Be honest now.

Those are easy to buy who you have lots of drug money and they feel they are necessary to be able to attract people of the opposite sex so they can have sex with them.  Seems logical.

Yet these students qualify for free lunches, subsidized housing, healtcare, etc...

Raising the minimum wage or enacting another social engineering programing isn't going to eradicate the "gimmeedat" mentality that's prevalent in this country.

Teach a man to fish...

In the Christian faith, people who try to prevent the poor from receiving assistance are referred to as "evil".  There aren't as many Christians in America as there used to be, though, so many people aren't aware of this.

[MDM]

While I agree with your overall stance of being open-minded (which I am; if having a firm belief causes someone to assume I'm closed-minded, then the assumption is their issue to sort out), I don't want to hijack the thread by responding to each point so I will just state that I disagree.

Fair enough.  At some point most people decide there are some things they will choose to "believe" rather than "know", and that saves a lot of time.

Some people are willing to challenge their own beliefs, and some are not.  E.g., one could ask a fundamentalist religious person "what would it take for you not to believe the Bible (or Koran, or...) is literally true?"  Or ask a fundamentalist environmentalist "what would it take for you not to believe global warming is a threat?" 

In either case, the result might be an interesting conversation - or facepunches of the real, nor virtual, variety....

[link_417]

Fair enough.  At some point most people decide there are some things they will choose to "believe" rather than "know", and that saves a lot of time.

Some people are willing to challenge their own beliefs, and some are not.  E.g., one could ask a fundamentalist religious person "what would it take for you not to believe the Bible (or Koran, or...) is literally true?"  Or ask a fundamentalist environmentalist "what would it take for you not to believe global warming is a threat?" 

In either case, the result might be an interesting conversation - or facepunches of the real, nor virtual, variety....

LOL, that is true.  It's pretty unbelievable to me (*wink*) that someone would attack another just because of words, but such is the world we live in.

Honestly, I originally felt your post was a touch condescending but I don't think it was meant to be, so I appreciate your perspective.  I do proofread/edit my posts to try to accurately convey what I'm thinking but in the end, I'm just putting down my thoughts and they come out as I feel them, for better or for worse!  I'm only just self-aware enough to know that I sometimes come off as a bit brash or downright bitchy, which, as you pointed out, can turn people off to what you're saying, so I will keep that in mind :) 

[MDM]

I originally felt your post was a touch condescending but I don't think it was meant to be, so I appreciate your perspective.

Correct, it was not meant to be - but I could understand how it might be interpreted that way and added the "Again, not picking on the author personally, just using this as a good "for example."" to try to make that clear.  Of course, forum posts aren't the best places for conveying nuanced views. ;)

And I'll try to remember to practice what I preach as well. :)

[davisgang90]

The problem with an arbitrary minimum wage increase is that it will result in people being laid off and small businesses going out of business. 

Probably not.

Agreed--this is an overblown theoretical concern that is brought up every min. wage increase and doesn't bear out in reality.

I know those things aren't popular to talk about but they are a reality of raising the rates rather than allowing the market to compensate based on the value provided.

The market (which is not completely free in America) has decided to pay as little as possible and pump extra profit to the owners who can lobby to keep wages down, get subsidies from the government, hold quasi-monopolies, etc.  Okay, fine, but I think we can do better.

If jobs decreasing as minimum wage rises is a myth then let's be smart about this.  Make the minimum wage like $50 and hour and people will have plenty of money!  Win for all!

[Syonyk]

If jobs decreasing as minimum wage rises is a myth then let's be smart about this.  Make the minimum wage like $50 and hour and people will have plenty of money!  Win for all!

"My opponent hates poor people!  He proposes raising minimum wage to a lowly $50/hr.  That's just over $100k/yr.  As news articles clearly show, nobody can afford to live the lifestyle they deserve on that horrible salary.  I propose $200/hr minimum age, so every single one of us can afford a $400k/yr lifestyle we deserve!  This is America, and we deserve the best!"

<flash bulbs go off>

[Dorje]

If jobs decreasing as minimum wage rises is a myth then let's be smart about this.  Make the minimum wage like $50 and hour and people will have plenty of money!  Win for all!

If logical fallacies are your only point maybe it's best to not respond.

We can look at other countries and see how they fare with higher minimum wages. I used to work in Denmark where the minimum wage is close to $20/hr equivalent and there is literally no unemployment whatsoever. Pretty much every hotel and many restaurants are understaffed. There is no homelessness unless it's by choice and there is free healthcare. Taxes are sky high yet their standard of living is better than it is in the USA for the average person. Where I worked, factory workers with no higher education were making about the same or more than I was with an engineering degree and they get 6 weeks paid vacation plus about 20 paid holidays.

Americans have sold out in so many ways by taking whatever short term gains they can with absolutely no regard for the long term consequences. We deserve the $hit we're in now for sure. Too bad so many are innocent victims, including our own children...

[Dorje]

How do you guys feel about the millions of Mexicans working in the USA temporarily, many illegally, and sending money back to their families living in Mexico? I love Mexico and like Mexicans a lot, they are more compassionate than Americans for the most part, but I'm not sure using them as a source of cheap labor in the USA is doing anything to help with our issues with income inequality or employment.

That's a whole 'nother topic.  Many many opinions and platitudes:

They do the jobs Americans don't want to do, for less.

Who wants to pick strawberries 12 hours a day?

THey are taking our jobs?

What's the truth?  Probably a little bit of all of that.

My observation locally (So Cal), is that when I drive by the homeless shelter, I see a lot of Mexicans on the other side of the street, which is the "day labor" line, looking for work.  I see a lot of 20-something white guys at the homeless shelter, looking for a bed and a free meal.

It creates a lot of challenges locally and for the schools.  75% of my son's school are on free/ reduced lunch.  >50% are bussed in.  43% of the parents of the students did not finish high school.  >60% are English learners (students).  Communication is difficult (not many people bilingual).  A fair number of the parents are illegal and cannot/ do not/ should not drive.

It presents a lot of challenges to the school and the teachers, who have to figure out how to teach two vastly different groups.  The English learners at our school score at the bottom - if you lined up the scores of the EL's for the 10 schools in our district, we are 9/10.

If you line up the scores of the native English speakers at our school with the other schools, we score as well as the best schools.

I think it's intricately tied into the wages we pay our lowest end jobs so is completely on-topic. But it is complicated...

Around here Mexicans have taken over labor for entire sectors of work... landscaping, framing, concrete, back of the house restaurant work. I wonder what things would be like if labor laws were actually enforced and Mexicans were not allowed to work here unless they got US citizenship?

[MDM]

Denmark where ... there is literally no unemployment whatsoever.

Really?  See http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/tgm/table.do?tab=table&language=en&pcode=teilm020&tableSelection=1&plugin=1. 

Says ~6.4% there, and that (similar to the way the statistic works in the US) ignores those who have given up looking:
"The unemployment rate represents unemployed persons as a percentage of the labour force based on International Labour Office (ILO) definition. The labour force is the total number of people employed and unemployed. Unemployed persons comprise persons aged 15 to 74 who:
- are without work during the reference week;
- are available to start work within the next two weeks;
- and have been actively seeking work in the past four weeks or had already found a job to start within the next three months.
Data are presented in seasonally adjusted form. "

[Dorje]

Denmark where ... there is literally no unemployment whatsoever.

Really?  See http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/tgm/table.do?tab=table&language=en&pcode=teilm020&tableSelection=1&plugin=1. 

Yes, but anyone can go out and get an entry level job if they want to and make about $20/hr. There are labor shortages in some industries.

[EricL]

 Yes, an "arbitrary" minimum wage raise is unsupportable.  But a minimum wage raise in accordance with inflation is not arbitrary.

And  there are a lot of people with their heads wrapped around how the poor will live paycheck to paycheck ghetto fabulous with this newfound wealth.   Yes, they will. And when they make the money now they do so anyway.   So what!?   A portion of them always will. And in doing so they will fuel the consumer economy much better than a bunch of overpaid CEOs.  The rest will learn how stupid that is after a few mistakes and tighten their shot group.  But they gotta have money to make money or at least make the mistakes they can learn from

[Paul der Krake]

Around here Mexicans have taken over labor for entire sectors of work... landscaping, framing, concrete, back of the house restaurant work. I wonder what things would be like if labor laws were actually enforced and Mexicans were not allowed to work here unless they got US citizenship?

If you're going to make pundit-style comments about labor laws, at least get your lingo straight. There are millions of people who live and work legally, and they're not citizens.