What Life Is Like When You Make Less Than $15 an Hour

[BEN_BANNED]

http://www.slate.com/blogs/behold/2015/05/18/fast_food_workers_photograph_their_daily_lives_in_the_exhibit_i_too_am_america.html

Of course,  every one of them voted for the President trying to push through the Dream Act, to make sure that life is even more hellish for the lower class.

[Retired To Win]

You know, I have the experience of living on my own on minimum wage for a period of about 2 years.  I didn't access any public assistance programs.  And I was fine.  I honest to god never felt poor.  I just don't understand what the disconnect is now...

[The Money Monk]

http://www.slate.com/blogs/behold/2015/05/18/fast_food_workers_photograph_their_daily_lives_in_the_exhibit_i_too_am_america.html

Of course,  every one of them voted for the President trying to push through the Dream Act, to make sure that life is even more hellish for the lower class.

I hate these type of articles. What does making $8 an hour have to do with having piles of shit on your bed?

[OldPro]

Ben, you picked a really lousy picture to illustrate your post.  I look at that and what I see is a loser.  It wouldn't surprise me that the person is earning less than $15 an hour.  The real question to me is what would make you think the person is CAPABLE of earning more?

I've been unemployed in the past for periods of time.  Most people probably have been.  But the question is what do you DO when that is the case?  Or what do you do when you want to earn more money?  It's as if you are saying people are not responsible for their own situation.

Sure someone can lose a well paying job, have difficulty finding another, even end up having to take food stamps or whatever.  But do they stay that way or do they get off their ass and DO something about it?

It's not "What life is like when you earn less than $15 an hour."  It's what life is like if that's how you CHOOSE to let your life be.

[Davids]

I would tell the person who has peanut butter in the fridge that you do not need to refrigerate it.

[BEN_BANNED]

Ben, you picked a really lousy picture to illustrate your post.  I look at that and what I see is a loser.  It wouldn't surprise me that the person is earning less than $15 an hour.  The real question to me is what would make you think the person is CAPABLE of earning more?

I've been unemployed in the past for periods of time.  Most people probably have been.  But the question is what do you DO when that is the case?  Or what do you do when you want to earn more money?  It's as if you are saying people are not responsible for their own situation.

Sure someone can lose a well paying job, have difficulty finding another, even end up having to take food stamps or whatever.  But do they stay that way or do they get off their ass and DO something about it?

It's not "What life is like when you earn less than $15 an hour."  It's what life is like if that's how you CHOOSE to let your life be.

The thread title was meant to be sarcastic, Sir.

Notice the useless crap strewn all over the rooms? Does being poor give one the carte blanche to be a slob?

I also wonder where the fathers are to these children. Are they at least partcipating in the childrens upbring or is that the sole responsibility of society at large?

[WhoopWhoop]

Have you guys been unskilled and minimum wage recently? You been unskilled and unemployed (or underemployed) recently?

Renting a room in an apartment or house + utilities: ~600
Health insurance: ~$200
Most people's food budget: ~$200
Mimimum Montly Expense Total = $1000/mo

$8 /hr for 40 hours a week = $1280
(btw, a full time job IF YOU'RE LUCKY!)

Monthly Earnings  After taxes (20%?) = $1024/mo

Those are tight margins.

The moral of the story: Just because it was easy to survive on minimum wage in 1952 when you were a young pup doesn't mean it is now. And don't assume that if a young person has enough ambition he will be able to get a job. I'm ambitious as shit and had a math degree and was STILL unemployed for 2 years.

Why are you pissing on these people, exactly?

[Another Reader]

In 1984 I bought my first house in a new subdivision.  This was at the height of the flood of Vietnamese immigrants, most of whom had been living in camps in various places in Asia.  A Vietnamese family bought a 4 bedroom house around the corner.  One day, when I was walking by, I saw a young woman and a baby in the garage.  There was an old couch, a table, a couple of lamps, and a playpen.  This woman, her baby, and her husband had just immigrated and were living in the garage.  The rent included kitchen and bathroom privileges.  He was never home, because he worked two jobs, seven days a week.  When the baby started walking, they moved into an apartment.  No doubt they have one or two more kids and own a house today. 

If you want to get out of the cycle of poverty, there are plenty of opportunities.  You may have to work a little harder at first, but it can be done and is being done today.  Unfortunately, we are telling people that are already here that they are "entitled" to a nice life with all of the consumer trimmings, even if they don't work.  We provide everything for them and their children, and nothing changes.

Nobody pays $600 a month for a room if they make $8.00 an hour.  They live with other people.  They share cars.  Many collect various welfare benefits for themselves and their kids.  Insurance?  No, they are on Medi-Cal.  Food stamps, WIC supplements, etc. supplement that $8.00 an hour.  These folks are generally are poor money managers and often eat poor quality diets, because they lack basic life skills.

Jobs that pay $8.00 per hour were never meant to be anything but stepping stones to better jobs as your skills improved.  If you are still making $8.00 an hour at 30, it's likely you are the problem.

[Syonyk]

I spent most of grad school on less than $15/hr.  Often by a large margin.

I had a roommate in an apartment everyone referred to as "The Pit."  It was not an endearing term, but the place was cheap.

I ate an awful lot of ramen.  It's not a good day when you're scrounging for change to buy ramen, but $1.25 bought half a week's worth of ramen at Aldi's.

And I busted ass to find ways to make money, be it doing brake jobs for people, fixing laptops, etc.

I guess if I had no money, no skills, and no time, it would have been worse, but... ffs, get some useful skills somehow or another. :/

[The_path_less_taken]

If you are purchasing your own healthcare (most minimum wage jobs cut you off EXACTLY at the point they'd have to pay benefits) and you're paying rent...it's not easy, I'm sure.

Some places in the country are possibly easier than others.

And...I think 'pride' or embarrassment prevents some people from trying to be creative: "Hey Mr. I'll sweep and mop this restaurant for a meal." Or going to a farmers market before closing and asking to cull through the stuff they're throwing out...or offering to help load a truck for some veggies or whatever.

Or taking a job as a personal care attendant and eating with your elderly charge...if you're starting out and have no kids/pets and are will to do whatever...I think it's possible to make minimum wage work. Working as an au pair: food/housing is covered so wages are almost all bankable. Teaching abroad. Working on a ship: no place to spend your money most of the time. House sitting and reading tarot cards...whatever.

But in urban areas in really shitty parts of town, minimum wage housing is often inherently dangerous for women to walk alone in, often times even in daylight.

There's an animal rescue operation I know of that caters to the homeless. A woman who works there said, "They ALL have phones, and most of them have smartphones." (she needs to hook up with them to give them dog food and I asked how she arranged that....answer surprised me as I don't have a smartphone).

And like so many things in life I think many things are the result of choices. As for the woman with piles of crap on the bed: she just got evicted so I imagine she's in a major depression. I've cleaned apartments after people were evicted and there are things they could have sold on craigslist for cash but they were depressed or whatever and just walked away from it all.

I think it should be MANDATORY in American (or anywhere, actually) education that courses be taught in how to actually live: how to bargain shop, how to be frugal, how to balance a checkbook, how to ask for a raise, how to evaluate a contract's terms, how to manage money, etc.

And maybe throw in a philosophy class or two: No one 'needs' a smart phone (I've actually been asked at work to buy one: I told them if they wanted me to have one, they should provide one.) But people think they "need" all kinds of crap.

At MMM, we know better.



edited because I'm tired and couldn't spell sweep the first time...

[Retired To Win]

Has anyone noted all the electronics laying around on this person's bed?

I think I see a laptop, a smart phone, some kind of walkman gizmo and one other thing I can't identify.  Is whoever put this story together serious?  Where did the money come from to fund all of these electronics?  Should we be surprised that the refrigerator is empty?

(And BTW, I can still remember living in a rented room with a shared bathroom out in the hallway and no refrigerator.  My diet mainstays were a loaf of bread, a jar of peanut butter and a small jar of strawberry jam -- all kept in the "dedicated pantry" top drawer of my dresser.  And I enjoyed my peanut butter and jam sandwiches, thank you very much.)

[Syonyk]

I used to make a lot of either rice or mashed potatoes with whatever else I could afford in it... "chopped ham" lunch meat was a popular addition, was was frozen vegetables of whatever the cheapest variety was.

Scraping the cash together to afford a 50lb bag of rice was key.  They're not that expensive, and it's enough calories to feed you for an awful long time.

[randymarsh]

I also wonder where the fathers are to these children. Are they at least partcipating in the childrens upbring or is that the sole responsibility of society at large?

They're probably a wage slave, barely taking home enough to survive after child support is taken out of their paycheck. Or they're in jail after falling behind on CS. Who has time to be a father when you're working 24/7? Many of them probably can't afford a 2 bedroom apartment, so good luck getting overnight visits. If we're going to hold fathers accountable, why not the mothers? Women have 100X the birth control options and are the only ones who can abort.

There are 2 separate, but related issues. One is that people who can't afford kids shouldn't be having them. I think society should be paying for birth control and education to prevent unplanned children. But the other issue is what do we do after the kids are here? No support? Some?

[Indexer]

You know, I have the experience of living on my own on minimum wage for a period of about 2 years.  I didn't access any public assistance programs.  And I was fine.  I honest to god never felt poor.  I just don't understand what the disconnect is now...

Ditto.  For me this was only 8(?) years ago. 

All through college actually.  Me and my roommates(other college kids working min wage jobs w/o mommy/daddy support) split a $650/month 2 bedroom 3 ways.  No internet or cable.  If we needed to work on projects that required internet we would normally just use an ipod(or flash drive) to download things.  Plug it into a library computer, download materials, upload materials on personal computer, do project, download back onto ipod, print it all off at the school.  Working in food service = not having to pay for meals at work.  Regular dumb phone.  Car was paid for, and I very rarely drove it.  I lived close enough to work that I walked a lot.  I not only managed to survive; I actually 'saved' money on this budget.  I saved well over 10% of my income.

Now yes I did have the advantage of being a student so healthcare at the university health clinic was normally super cheap so health insurance wasn't a concern plus I was still on my parent's insurance part of that time.

The numbers become a problem when you add kids to the equation, but that is also normally when the government starts helping.  You can't make minimum wage and have a $100 smartphone bill, $100 cable bill, lease a car, etc. 

Now that I think about it... I can probably thank that terrible job for my current frugality.  If I could live within my means on 15k a year I have no excuse for not saving at a very high rate now.

Renting a room in an apartment or house + utilities: ~600

That is really high.  Normally someone making minimum wage isn't going to be splitting a $1000/month apartment with someone.  Most of the people I worked with back then lived in very sketchy places, and rent was normally in the 500-600 range split 2(or 3) ways.  A few people even owned their homes... by homes I of course mean the mobile kind, but they owned them ;).

[jj20051]

Renting a room in an apartment or house + utilities: ~600
Health insurance: ~$200
Most people's food budget: ~$200
Mimimum Montly Expense Total = $1000/mo

These numbers seem high to me. Last time I was making minimum at a 30 /hr per week job (2010) I was able to get by on less than that. Here were my rough finances at the time:

Rough monthly income after taxes: $700.00 (Would be ~$888 today based on the sign hiring for burger king down the road)
Cost to rent a room (including utilities): $300 /mo
Health insurance: $0.00 (Let's say it is $200 This was pre-obamacare. You didn't get cost reduced healthcare and I did without.)
Food and other non/essentials: $300 ($150 food, $150 other (to include a cheap flip phone) )

Total Costs (Then / Today): $600.00 / $800.00 (I'd like to note that's without being super tight with my money and the 'today' is with healthcare. I also feel that renting a room in most areas has stayed the same....)

These people need to get off their asses and go do something if they want to earn more money. Why do people feel they're forced into their job? Also just because you're poor doesn't mean you have to live like a pig.

--
Of note: I ate like crap back then. Hot dogs, peanut butter sandwitches, ramen, anything cheap really.

That is really high.  Normally someone making minimum wage isn't going to be splitting a $1000/month apartment with someone.  Most of the people I worked with back then lived in very sketchy places, and rent was normally in the 500-600 range split 2(or 3) ways.  A few people even owned their homes... by homes I of course mean the mobile kind, but they owned them ;).

Exactly.

[mohawkbrah]

living on minimum wage isn't hard life

my expenses are only £6k a year for everything i need to survive, i then invest the rest. still moving toward my FIRE on a minimum wage job. maybe people should stop buying things they don't need with money they don't have? but of course that would then require responsibility. something my generation lacks greatly.

[cerebus]

Minimum wage here depends on the job type, but it varies around the $1/hr mark. $8/hr here is pretty good money. $15 is distinctly middle class. And I don't think costs differ all that much. A loaf of bread is about $1. Rent depends where you live but if you don't want to be in a slum, you can pay around $3-500 for a reasonable place. Gas is around $3.50/gallon. My 2005 Camry cost $5400. And health insurance is around $900 per person per month. Those seem to be equivalent to US prices, right? Honestly I do not know how a minimum wage worker manages to survive here but they do somehow.

[antarestar]

I think the people who talked about depression are onto something. There is a big difference between choosing to live very frugally, knowing it is a means to an end, and having to live very frugally with no end in sight.

I also don't think you are taking into account the huge safety net of having accessible savings. If an unexpected bill comes up, it's not devastating. I can dip into my savings account without too much trouble. Or worst comes to worst, I can ask my parents for money. If you don't have one of these two things, life is much harder and you are more likely to give up on the delayed gratification principle that is so important in building any kind of wealth.

[cerebus]

I think the people who talked about depression are onto something. There is a big difference between choosing to live very frugally, knowing it is a means to an end, and having to live very frugally with no end in sight.

There's a lot of research into the cognitive damage that it does to be in a state of continual poverty. The prefrontal cortex which should be responsible for making the kind of strategic decisions that can help someone get out of poverty, is overloaded with the daily tasks of survival.

I can remember very acutely the days when my earnings were junior level (under $700/month net) and I had a family to support at the same time. It was painful and we literally could not manage to save, and the fact that saving itself was so futile meant that if ever there was anything over, it seemed more worthwhile to treat ourselves to a takeout than to stash it away. It's hard to get across to people who are fiscally disciplined that there is a tangible difference in the mentality of someone poor and someone frugal, and it goes beyond education.

I also don't think you are taking into account the huge safety net of having accessible savings. If an unexpected bill comes up, it's not devastating. I can dip into my savings account without too much trouble. Or worst comes to worst, I can ask my parents for money. If you don't have one of these two things, life is much harder and you are more likely to give up on the delayed gratification principle that is so important in building any kind of wealth.

Not only that, but let's say you want to buy clothing or an appliance or really any domestic good. If you're living hand to mouth, you might only have the cash on hand to buy a cheapo device. That $10 kettle is going to last you about a year before it blows out and then you need to replace it again. Whereas when you look at the household contents of someone like MMM, it's full of high-end goods that he was able to plan and save for to get the best things at the best deals. So over time the fact that you have access to liquidity means that your living situation accumulates and your daily expenses become minimized because you already have high quality goods.

Our kettle has been going strong now for about 8 years for instance. My K-Way jacket will last me another 5 years before it looks worn. We bought the kids some slippers yesterday and opted to go cheap, and even when we got home one of them had a tear in it.

[big_slacker]

The moral of the story: Just because it was easy to survive on minimum wage in 1952 when you were a young pup doesn't mean it is now. And don't assume that if a young person has enough ambition he will be able to get a job. I'm ambitious as shit and had a math degree and was STILL unemployed for 2 years.

Why are you pissing on these people, exactly?

You probably don't know the dot com bust by anything other than a wiki, but it's been bad at other periods before you, and before old fogeys like me as as well. You got an unlucky draw in terms of graduation date and state (depending on year anywhere from 9-12% unemployment in CA, ouch! It was only 9% in OR during the bust I struggled through), but people will survive.

I'm not into pissing on anyone, I just grew up poor and went through some serious downturns in adulthood so I have a little bit of experience in this area and a few points to make.

1-Fast food is *NOT* the job you get to support a family, or in a lot of cases to support even a person.
2-If you end up trying to support your family on this you better damn well take advantage of whatever social programs are available. Partial unemployment, food stamps/EBT, WIC, church groups and so on.
3-When you're poor you gotta be creative and you can't be proud.
4-You can sell MORE of your time for what you're making now, or find a way to sell less of it for more $$. This is the goal.
5-You've gotta be flexible, it's a big country and there are always opportunities if you're willing to do what it takes.

[forummm]

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/the-poverty-line/

[Redstone5]

If you are purchasing your own healthcare (most minimum wage jobs cut you off EXACTLY at the point they'd have to pay benefits) and you're paying rent...it's not easy, I'm sure.

Some places in the country are possibly easier than others.

And...I think 'pride' or embarrassment prevents some people from trying to be creative: "Hey Mr. I'll sweep and mop this restaurant for a meal." Or going to a farmers market before closing and asking to cull through the stuff they're throwing out...or offering to help load a truck for some veggies or whatever.

Or taking a job as a personal care attendant and eating with your elderly charge...if you're starting out and have no kids/pets and are will to do whatever...I think it's possible to make minimum wage work. Working as an au pair: food/housing is covered so wages are almost all bankable. Teaching abroad. Working on a ship: no place to spend your money most of the time. House sitting and reading tarot cards...whatever.

But in urban areas in really shitty parts of town, minimum wage housing is often inherently dangerous for women to walk alone in, often times even in daylight.

There's an animal rescue operation I know of that caters to the homeless. A woman who works there said, "They ALL have phones, and most of them have smartphones." (she needs to hook up with them to give them dog food and I asked how she arranged that....answer surprised me as I don't have a smartphone).

And like so many things in life I think many things are the result of choices. As for the woman with piles of crap on the bed: she just got evicted so I imagine she's in a major depression. I've cleaned apartments after people were evicted and there are things they could have sold on craigslist for cash but they were depressed or whatever and just walked away from it all.

I think it should be MANDATORY in American (or anywhere, actually) education that courses be taught in how to actually live: how to bargain shop, how to be frugal, how to balance a checkbook, how to ask for a raise, how to evaluate a contract's terms, how to manage money, etc.

And maybe throw in a philosophy class or two: No one 'needs' a smart phone (I've actually been asked at work to buy one: I told them if they wanted me to have one, they should provide one.) But people think they "need" all kinds of crap.

At MMM, we know better.



edited because I'm tired and couldn't spell sweep the first time...

+1 I think this is the key point. So many people don't know that there are better options and they don't have the skills to education themselves on what's out there for them. A single mother of three I knew through my son's daycare once asked me if I thought it was a better option for her to keep buying packs of cigarettes at $8 each or buy a "roll your own" bulk cigarettes for like $40 cheaper a week. It seemed like a no brainer to me. (I've never smoked so I had no idea it cost so much.) She was also paying $1000 a month to live in a motel with her kids instead of renting an apartment for $600 because she couldn't afford a security deposit. The cycle of poverty is so sad.

[sunshine]

I have to say I know darn well people who live well on less than $15 an hour.  One of my dearest friends is one of them. She is frugal to the bone very creative and lives well.

My oldest and his two roommates all make less than that and are also fulltime students. Why are they doing fine? Their are 3 sharing expenses. Is it easy? No! But they all do ok. I will say our child has the benefit of school being paid in full. He won't graduate with debt but must pay all his other expenses if he doesn't want the benefit of a free roof at home.  They found an appt that includes heat, electric and water. It costs them each $250 monthly.

10 years ago we were living ok on under $28k as a family of 4 and saving. Where there is a will there is always a way!

[2lazy2retire]

If you are purchasing your own healthcare (most minimum wage jobs cut you off EXACTLY at the point they'd have to pay benefits) and you're paying rent...it's not easy, I'm sure.

Some places in the country are possibly easier than others.

And...I think 'pride' or embarrassment prevents some people from trying to be creative: "Hey Mr. I'll sweep and mop this restaurant for a meal." Or going to a farmers market before closing and asking to cull through the stuff they're throwing out...or offering to help load a truck for some veggies or whatever.

Or taking a job as a personal care attendant and eating with your elderly charge...if you're starting out and have no kids/pets and are will to do whatever...I think it's possible to make minimum wage work. Working as an au pair: food/housing is covered so wages are almost all bankable. Teaching abroad. Working on a ship: no place to spend your money most of the time. House sitting and reading tarot cards...whatever.

But in urban areas in really shitty parts of town, minimum wage housing is often inherently dangerous for women to walk alone in, often times even in daylight.

There's an animal rescue operation I know of that caters to the homeless. A woman who works there said, "They ALL have phones, and most of them have smartphones." (she needs to hook up with them to give them dog food and I asked how she arranged that....answer surprised me as I don't have a smartphone).

And like so many things in life I think many things are the result of choices. As for the woman with piles of crap on the bed: she just got evicted so I imagine she's in a major depression. I've cleaned apartments after people were evicted and there are things they could have sold on craigslist for cash but they were depressed or whatever and just walked away from it all.

I think it should be MANDATORY in American (or anywhere, actually) education that courses be taught in how to actually live: how to bargain shop, how to be frugal, how to balance a checkbook, how to ask for a raise, how to evaluate a contract's terms, how to manage money, etc.

And maybe throw in a philosophy class or two: No one 'needs' a smart phone (I've actually been asked at work to buy one: I told them if they wanted me to have one, they should provide one.) But people think they "need" all kinds of crap.

At MMM, we know better.



edited because I'm tired and couldn't spell sweep the first time...

I notice the smartphone has replaced the large tv as weapon of choice to beat the less fortunate

[2lazy2retire]

In 1984 I bought my first house in a new subdivision.  This was at the height of the flood of Vietnamese immigrants, most of whom had been living in camps in various places in Asia.  A Vietnamese family bought a 4 bedroom house around the corner.  One day, when I was walking by, I saw a young woman and a baby in the garage.  There was an old couch, a table, a couple of lamps, and a playpen.  This woman, her baby, and her husband had just immigrated and were living in the garage.  The rent included kitchen and bathroom privileges.  He was never home, because he worked two jobs, seven days a week.  When the baby started walking, they moved into an apartment.  No doubt they have one or two more kids and own a house today. 

If you want to get out of the cycle of poverty, there are plenty of opportunities.  You may have to work a little harder at first, but it can be done and is being done today.  Unfortunately, we are telling people that are already here that they are "entitled" to a nice life with all of the consumer trimmings, even if they don't work.  We provide everything for them and their children, and nothing changes.

Nobody pays $600 a month for a room if they make $8.00 an hour.  They live with other people.  They share cars.  Many collect various welfare benefits for themselves and their kids.  Insurance?  No, they are on Medi-Cal.  Food stamps, WIC supplements, etc. supplement that $8.00 an hour.  These folks are generally are poor money managers and often eat poor quality diets, because they lack basic life skills.

Jobs that pay $8.00 per hour were never meant to be anything but stepping stones to better jobs as your skills improved.  If you are still making $8.00 an hour at 30, it's likely you are the problem.

"If you are still making $8.00 an hour at 30, it's likely you are the problem." and what do you suggest for these problematic people

[mm1970]

Why are you pissing on these people, exactly?

Because because:
*I* did it, so anyone can do it.
"Work hard, work smart, save up"
Go to school, work nights, better yourself
Hustle hustle two jobs
Bootstraps
People are lazy/stupid if they are making minimum wage
etc. etc. etc.

[mm1970]

http://thewireless.co.nz/articles/the-pencilsword-on-a-plate

Obviously some gross generalizations here, but definitely some truth to it all.

[big_slacker]

"If you are still making $8.00 an hour at 30, it's likely you are the problem." and what do you suggest for these problematic people

Look for work that pays more, get training and do it. For instance in the medical field you could do a 3 month program as a phlebotomist which includes some clinical intern work and almost certainly feeds you right into the job (assuming they're as in demand as they are here). $15/hr. Now that you have work at a decent wage start working on the ADN degree so you can get into the pretty in demand nursing field like at 50-60k/yr. From there RN and more pay including massive OT if you can stand the hours.

Just one example, I'm not saying everyone wants to draw blood and then become a nurse, but FFS there are lots of fields out there dying for workers but people want to work at fucking mcdonalds for $15/hr. It just seems insane to me.

[ketchup]

I bought my first house while working part-time making $12.50/hr three years ago.  I was 20, with no degree.

But I had been living at home with my parents rent-free for about a year savings my pennies.   I had no smartphone (yet).  I had three roommates lined to go in with me on it.  It was a one-bedroom house.  It was quite cheap (2012).  My living expenses while at home before moving out were literally less than $100/month because I spent almost nothing except gas (for a borrowed car) and my cheapie cell phone plan.  I worked a second job making $10/hr under the table for part of the year the summer before and after moving out.  I was on my parents' health insurance plan.

It can be done.  But I had help (parents and roommates), financial sense, a plan, and a stable home-life.  Without all of those things, it would have been far more difficult.

[The_path_less_taken]

I notice the smartphone has replaced the large tv as weapon of choice to beat the less fortunate

Actually, I haven't beaten anyone in days...are you volunteering?  I'm tired today and not willing to chase you: so you'll have to stand still for it.  ;-0

My point was valid: everyone chooses their own path. Their own priorities.

Personally, before I'd be evicted I would 'make do' with a pay-as-you-go flip phone. How do I know I could do this?

Because I'm doing it now on an ok wage.

And if I were homeless...would the first thing I spent a cash windfall on be a fancy freaking phone? I think not.

Hate me all you like, 2lazy2retire, but I advocate other things that I'm sure are unpopular with you and many others: before I'd give out welfare I would mandate drug testing.

I had to get it for my job. Why should someone get free money without having to adhere to the same standard? I would NOT advocate they be punished though, but I would vote for an out-patient clinic/wellness program or whatever...and they'd have to pee clean to get back on the free money ride.

The exception is kids: children have no say so in whether their parent is a drug addict or basic idiot so should not be penalized and SHOULD have WIC or whatever the food program/housing thing is.

I tend not to believe in large scale labels. To me the "poor" are people who don't have any pets.

Or have lost their sight: we live on such a beautiful planet I can't imagine not seeing it.

Or lost a limb in the military or at something stupid like the Boston bombing.

And I pity the poor, using my definition of it. But I don't define people who just haven't quite figured out money (YET) as poor. And it is YET, unless they're dead in which case it's a moot point. If they're alive, they could get a clue, buy a vowel...learn something helpful, tomorrow.

I also wish that AS we hand out free whatever programs, we at least make an attempt to educate these people in basic life skills.


<mounts unicorn, rides off into the sunset humming "somewhere, over the rainbow">

[golden1]

Why are you pissing on these people, exactly?

Seriously, if you have the time to shit all over the poor, then you have your priorities out of whack. 

Isn't this forum supposed to be about making positive changes in your own life?  What is the obsession with tearing everyone else down? 

[davisgang90]

It is always interesting to see how folks react in these threads.  There is a natural tension between the inherent frugality of being a mustachian and the instinctual defensiveness the more liberal among us feel about anyone who is making an annual income many on these boards easily live on. 

[ChrisLansing]

Why are you pissing on these people, exactly?

Because because:
*I* did it, so anyone can do it.
"Work hard, work smart, save up"
Go to school, work nights, better yourself
Hustle hustle two jobs
Bootstraps
People are lazy/stupid if they are making minimum wage
etc. etc. etc.

But, at some point, the working poor really do have to consider how their own behavior keeps them from advancing.  What else can we tell them but to save, work hard (if they can find a job) get some skills, etc. ?   

[dcheesi]

Keep in mind that for many low income folks, a single smartphone replaces several common services:

Home phone
Internet (access to things that are only, or most efficiently, handled online)
Entertainment (games/web/video)

And it does so in a portable form that makes more sense for people with unstable housing situations, etc.

Not to mention that many retail/service-industry employers nowadays expect their employees to be available at the drop of a hat to meet last-minute staffing needs. Which means being reachable by phone even if you're out of the house (e.g. on a long bus ride to the nearest discount grocery). [The fact that these new staffing policies amount to unpaid on-call status is a topic for another rant...]

[Chris22]

Keep in mind that for many low income folks, a single smartphone replaces several common services:

Home phone
Internet (access to things that are only, or most efficiently, handled online)
Entertainment (games/web/video)

And it does so in a portable form that makes more sense for people with unstable housing situations, etc.

Not to mention that many retail/service-industry employers nowadays expect their employees to be available at the drop of a hat to meet last-minute staffing needs. Which means being reachable by phone even if you're out of the house (e.g. on a long bus ride to the nearest discount grocery). [The fact that these new staffing policies amount to unpaid on-call status is a topic for another rant...]

Yup, was going to write this.  Hard to apply to jobs without an email address a lot of times.  Lots of employers require a valid phone number and some even want to text schedules, etc.  yes it "can be done" to go without, but a smart phone can be a very valuable tool to find and keep employment, and then for doing the "business" of life living cheaply with things like Freecycle, Craigslist, etc. 

[YK-Phil]

Why are you pissing on these people, exactly?

Seriously, if you have the time to shit all over the poor, then you have your priorities out of whack. 

Isn't this forum supposed to be about making positive changes in your own life?  What is the obsession with tearing everyone else down?

+1 There is a clear failure by many to acknowledge the personal and societal circumstances and experience of other people, and using anecdotal evidence of a few individuals' financial success against all odds as the only gospel to follow. Those poor folks who don't make it have only themselves to blame. That's a very simplistic and distorted view of the world.

[MDM]

$8 /hr for 40 hours a week = $1280
(btw, a full time job IF YOU'RE LUCKY!)

Monthly Earnings  After taxes (20%?) = $1024/mo

The tax bite is not nearly that bad.  In this situation getting money from the IRS is more likely than having to pay money to the IRS.  E.g., see https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/attachments/43722-Supplemental_Material-MarginalTaxRates.pdf:

[TheInsuranceMan]

That seems odd - in college, I worked for $10 an hour, paid for half of my one-bedroom apartment rental, and all my bills, and had enough for beer money yet!
Now, I'm probably making $18-$19 an hour (salary, just a guess to what my hourly wage comes out to), and over the last year and a half, support my wife and her pregnancy, and now her and our daughter with that single income.  Benefits through work, but still, that was $630 a month for health and dental, with a mortgage and other bills on top.  And we weren't scrounging for food or dumpster diving at all. 

[arebelspy]

The lack of empathy in this thread makes me sad for Mustachians, and frankly a little embarrassed to call myself a member of a group with those posting these things.

I hope these people are able to improve their situations.

[Jags4186]

Sure it's easy to say "hey I can live on $1000/mo I don't get what the problem is" when it is your elective choice to live on $1000/mo.  Oh and you make $2000, $3000, $4000, or more a month.  God forbid there's a problem--no sweat you just save $1500 instead of $2000 this month.  When you have NO wiggle room every little hiccup or bump in the road is a catastrophe and you have no way to recover.

And for the person living in a mess--being poor makes you depressed.  When you're depressed you don't care about your appearance.

The simple fact is that instead of worrying about the minimum wage we should be worried about having jobs for able bodied adults that pay $15.  I'm against paying a fast food worker $15 for flipping burgers because that's a kids job and also a job that requires no skill, no effort, and no training.

[forummm]

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/the-poverty-line/

I posted this because I think some people are not considering causes besides laziness that people got into the situations they are in, and how hard it is to be there. If you had parents that gave you a good start and genetics to give you a good start and peer groups that didn't sway you from that path, and you had decent nutrition so you could concentrate in school, and the color of your skin didn't deter people from giving you opportunities, etc, then you are lucky. Not everyone won the ovarian lottery in the way many of us did. My brother and I share nearly everything in our upbringing (parents, environment, genetics, income status, etc), but we couldn't be more different in some ways. There's just something different about how he thinks about things and he just doesn't see things the way I do. It's genetics.

Relevant excerpt below:

My life on $35k would be exceptionally different if I had no investments, no savings, no property, no goods I could hawk on Craigslist, etc.  And no family with means to help me, support me, and take me in (comfortably) if all that failed. 

We spent a lot of time here talking about emergency funds and margins or error and safety nets.  Those are the reasons that numbers like $20k/yr feel comfortable to us.  Because we know that while we budget down to 20k, we know that we can come up with an extra $5k in a few days if our care implodes, or  $10k in a few days if we need a new roof, or even $20k in a few weeks if we get sick.  And we can pull a few hundred dollars today if it will save us a hundred more down the road, because we have the savings that allow is to bring forward expenses tactically.   Those safety nets are a large part of why we can live on numbers lower than the average Joe.  Those living in poverty, or whatever term we want to use, don't have those things. 

While I agree with MMM's optimism and his notions that there is opportunity everywhere and for people in all situations, I think it's incredibly naive to think that because he was able to do X, anyone is. MMM *is* exceptional.  For one things, he's clearly pretty intelligent.  For another, he's articulate.  For yet another, he's very able-bodied.   Those things allowed him to get and keep good jobs, and succeed at them.  And they allow him to do many of this own home repairs, to figure out how to blow insulation into a slanted ceiling using burlap (or whatever it was), to know that he can always work at something if necessary, and to make sure his own son gets a solid education which sets him up for his own future successes.

Not everyone has those things.  And that makes a world of difference.  To me, poverty isn't just about income, and it isn't even just about income and financial assets.  It's also about access to resources of all kinds, including mental and health resources.

+1 I've lived at this level of spending for a long time. It felt really scary and stressful when I was only earning about as much as I spent, and I didn't have any savings. It feels tremendously better now that I do have a cash cushion to fall back on and much more job security. Every year it feels better and better. We could cut our spending to below the poverty level and it would just be very inconvenient and involve sacrifices--but not stressful/scary. But if we were forced to live there and had nothing else it would be daily stress and anxiety.

[Redstone5]

It also costs a lot more to be poor. One small example: as a struggling student twenty years ago I had to pay a $30 "processing fee" to use my student loan to pay my university tuition. If I'd had the cash to pay up front it would have saved me a week's grocery budget. 

[ChrisLansing]

The problem with empathy is that once it's expressed, that usually ends all interest in dealing with the problem of poverty.   

The poor didn't win any lotteries - the skin color lottery, the genetic lottery, the financially astute parents lottery, The social contacts who can help you find work lottery......etc.    OK, acknowledged.   So what's the solution(s)?   

One solution certainly is to raise the minimum wage.   It's lagged behind the inflation rate very badly and needs to be increased.    (And no, I don't care if the price of a Big Mac goes up by 18 cents)   

But dollars to donuts, if we raise the MW to $15 we'll be back here in a few years with a thread about how hard life is on less than $20 and hour.     

At some point the terrible reality that low income means a harsher life simply has to be faced and dealt with - by the poor themselves.     People really can save, even if it's just a little.    People really can lower their grocery bill by purchasing staples and cooking from scratch.   People really can go w/o a car and save thousands of dollars.   (And people really can go w/o 20" wheels for a car that only runs half the time).      People really can go w/o cable.    People really can by t-shirts at the thrift store (would it be inappropriate to say that I buy clothes at the thrift store, therefore others can too?) 

At some point making excuses for bad decisions isn't helping, no matter how empathetic it may sound.   Being poor is a hair on fire event.   

[arebelspy]

Certainly concrete solutions are needed, Chris.

But when choosing between:
1) Being an asshole and having no practical solution, or
2) Being empathetic and having no practical solution

I'd prefer to be friends with #2 people every time.

And when choosing between:
1) Being an asshole and having some practical solutions, or
2) Being empathetic and having some practical solutions

Again, I'll take #2 every time.

So whether you have solutions, or not, being an asshole about it doesn't endear you to me, or most people.  I'll take the nice people over the assholes every time.

[EAL]

Life is all about choices. I grew up poor as did my husband. We both busted our asses to get great grades in high school and work so as to save for college. He also supported his mother and brother for many years during high school and college because they were too lazy to work.  We both worked multiple jobs and chose affordable colleges so that we could earn masters degrees and decent paying jobs. By no means are we rolling in it and do we have some student loan debt? You bet ya. But we made a decision to invest in education and better our lives' trajectory.  No, we did not do this in 1952. We did this a handful of years ago. My husband is 30 and I'm 25.  Did we live many years off of much less than $15/hour? Yes? It was hard so we made a change, just like everyone else can if they want to take responsibility and be proactive for their own life. We are frugal and save still because we've been poor and know that that could happen at any moment again with an economic downturn.  Just because it would be easier to live off of $15/hour does not mean it is merited for unskilled labor.  Also, anyone who knows anything about the economy can understand how difficult this would be on small business owners. Imagine trying to get your own small business started and being forced to pay your employees $15/hour even if they were uneducated and unskilled. This is in no way intended to be derogatory, but this is ridiculous.  Many small businesses will be forced to shut down or lay-off many employees because this is really unrealistic. 

[golden1]

But the poor are told constantly that being poor is their fault in this culture.    So clearly that isn't the solution either, otherwise there would be less poor people.   When you tell people that they just need to buck up and work harder, most people just tend to get defensive.  It isn't rational, but it is true. 

Couching the message of personal responsibility in a better way might do more to sway people than just trying to shame them into being less poor.   This is a lot of the reason MMM appeals to me so much - it takes a thing that most people see as a negative, saving money, and turns it into a positive message - being more self-sufficient, finding true happiness etc... 

[Syonyk]

Also, anyone who knows anything about the economy can understand how difficult this would be on small business owners. Imagine trying to get your own small business started and being forced to pay your employees $15/hour even if they were uneducated and unskilled. This is in no way intended to be derogatory, but this is ridiculous.  Many small businesses will be forced to shut down or lay-off many employees because this is really unrealistic.

Yeah, but after you've driven the shitty small business owners out of business who can't pay their workers $15/hr, you...

Well.  Um.  Anyway, there will probably be other business that show up that can!  Right?  But it'd better not be those evil big businesses!

(this is an active debate in Seattle currently with the $15NOW proposals, and the general attitude seems to be, "If you're a small business and you can't afford to pay your workers more, you suck at being a business owner, fuck you, and get out of the way so someone else who can afford to pay their workers more can have your property" - I'm not sure what the plan actually is, other than to continue viewing small businesses as an endless fountain of money that can be tapped)

[Another Reader]

Arebelspy:

Nice people can be unsympathetic to the plight of the majority of the poor in this country.  The trouble is largely a welfare safety net that has no end and is compatible with every excuse for a lack of personal responsibility you can think of.  Not to mention the politicians that are milking this for the votes they can get from these folks and their sympathizers.  If you are truly unable to help yourself, that's a different matter.  For everyone else, a version of "work or starve" would turn the problem around. 

Recent reinforcement:  See Aushin's new thread. 

[big_slacker]

I just wanted to quote and repost this because it bears repeating. You can be compassionate to another human being regardless of what you think about why they are where they are.

Certainly concrete solutions are needed, Chris.

But when choosing between:
1) Being an asshole and having no practical solution, or
2) Being empathetic and having no practical solution

I'd prefer to be friends with #2 people every time.

And when choosing between:
1) Being an asshole and having some practical solutions, or
2) Being empathetic and having some practical solutions

Again, I'll take #2 every time.

So whether you have solutions, or not, being an asshole about it doesn't endear you to me, or most people.  I'll take the nice people over the assholes every time.

[GetItRight]

One solution certainly is to raise the minimum wage.   It's lagged behind the inflation rate very badly and needs to be increased.    (And no, I don't care if the price of a Big Mac goes up by 18 cents)   

But dollars to donuts, if we raise the MW to $15 we'll be back here in a few years with a thread about how hard life is on less than $20 and hour.

Aggressive violence is never the solution. That should be enough to understand that minimum wage is unethical and downright wrong. If that isn't enough, just look at the facts. Minimum wage increases unemployment by increasing the cost of labor, naturally reducing demand for labor. Employers make do with fewer employees, accelerate automation, etc. Notice how there seem to be fewer checkout registers open, more self checkout, automated ordering systems, self service kiosks, etc. This is all accelerated when the price of labor increases. Statistically those hurt the most by minimum wage are blacks and teens or young adults. Anyone advocating minimum wage or an increase in minimum wage is advocating harm specifically to blacks and young people, and more broadly to all entry level and lower skilled workers. Minimum wage is harmful to everyone, but harms the poor the most.

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/walter-e-williams/2013/02/26/walter-e-williams-column-how-hiking-minimum-wage-hurts-teens-blac