What are your thoughts on the illegal immigration crisis?

[FireYourJob]

Put politics aside. Put compassion aside. What are your financial thoughts on it and how it may impact you and your family?

Is it no big deal?  How much would be too much?  Do we need more of it?

I'd like to hear the opinions of this community that obviously spends a fair amount of time thinking about profits and losses an log term investments and the impact of costs and inflation.

[luna]

Crisis? If you want a discussion about the financial effects only, then it's probably good to lead by example.

Personally, I think borders are bullcrap.

Financially, it is probably better to be in a country with immigration than emmigration.

Which country are we talking here BTW?

[daverobev]

You need to be more specific. From where, to where?

From Africa to Europe? Mexico to US?

My general thoughts are that, for the good of humanity as a whole, the brightest and boldest need to stay at home and advance their country. At the moment 'the west' is sucking a serious proportion of those who are smart enough to get up and make life better for them. Smart of them, but to the detriment of their own people.

"Keep out furriners!" no obviously not. That's not it. Unfortunately it sounds like that when I say I believe people generally should stay in the country where they are and make it better.

In the long term, once we're all at peace (ha, ha, ha), there should be no boundaries or borders because obviously one human is the same as any other, all equally valuable. Right now? No, of course not, the social fabric and institutions would turn to chaos.

[dragoncar]

I'm tired of the illegal immigrants coming into America and pushing me off sidewalks!

[Daisy]

Is your question more on the "illegal" or the "immigration" part?

Financially speaking, the "illegal" part of it to me means that it opens up the immigrant to abuse from the employer. This person is hiding in the lurches and the employer knows that and can undercut their wages and have them in deplorable working conditions - because they are not going to go to the authorities to complain. So a business owner will now hire this person instead of someone with legal status that knows they have certain rights.

If say this illegal person does house repairs, then they may not have the necessary licenses and knowledge of local regulations and it could affect whoever uses their services and they may not be sure what they are getting.

I am very pro-immigrant, as my parents were (legal) immigrants to the US, but this illegal thing troubles me. Not the actual people themselves, but the fact that they are now hiding in society and may not have the same rights they would have if their status were not illegal.

Then I see the coverage of swarms of people being brought over the border by smugglers charging them an obscene amount of money and under terrible conditions and it breaks my heart for them as well (sorry for the compassionate burst). Financially, they are now beholden to these smugglers so any wages they earn are sent to pay their way to the US or sent back to family members to pay for their transfer. All of this money is now going to the smugglers instead of staying in our economy.

An example - I was on a jury once and the defendant was from a family of illegal immigrants. He was a minor when he committed the crime (murder). His parents had seen signs of trouble with their child and he even got Baker-Act'ed at one time. His parents, I assume because of their illegal status, didn't follow up with the proper care. Then he eventually acted out on his aggressions and someone's life ended as a result.

Even legal immigrants, such as H1B visas holders, can get "abused" by their employers as the employee is totally dependent on that employer for their immigration status.

The whole system seems more complex than it needs to be. I think that leads to this "black market" in smuggling. My opinion is that this complexity spurs people to try the illegal route instead of trying to come to the US legally. If the process was easier, you wouldn't be seeing those horrifying scenes of people crowding on trains and dying along their journey. I don't have the answer, but the current situation does break my heart.

[Daisy]

My general thoughts are that, for the good of humanity as a whole, the brightest and boldest need to stay at home and advance their country. At the moment 'the west' is sucking a serious proportion of those who are smart enough to get up and make life better for them. Smart of them, but to the detriment of their own people.

Yep, that's what happens. When a revolution occurs, the best and brightest figure it out and leave as soon as they can. It does sound noble to stick around and fight for your country, but in reality not everyone wants to sacrifice their life this way. Especially when sticking around means you could be jailed for life, shot at, your children taken from you. Yep, that's the kind of place my parents left to come to the US.

[Paul der Krake]

More seriously, I believe a lot of it has to do with primal fears of people who look different and fear of one's own precarious financial situation. There is so much ignorance in the immigration debate that you can't have a rational conversation about it. I'm a first generation immigrant myself (although white, male, and a product of the upper middle class of another first world country) and I'm always amazed at how uninformed some of my close friends are. We're not talking about bible thumpin rednecks but successful young people with top-tier university education and brains. Yet some of them seriously believe that anyone in the country illegally was too lazy to "go apply for citizenship or whatever". Your media machine at work, folks.

Even legal immigrants, such as H1B visas holders, can get "abused" by their employers as the employee is totally dependent on that employer for their immigration status.

You don't say. The H1B sucks for someone to be on. Lose your job and you have just 30 days to find another one. If you don't marry a resident you're also at the mercy of your employer who is the only one to sponsor your green card. The only reason so many people try to get on it is because it's basically the only way to get in if you don't family already in the country.

Signed: someone who came here to steal y'all's jobs and women. You're next.

[Russ]

log term investments

forestry thread is this way -> http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/a-true-non-market-correlated-long-term-nvestment-forestry/

for real though, calling something a crisis without even saying anything to back it up is not the way to start the kind of discussion you claim to be looking for

[Daisy]

Signed: someone who came here to steal y'all's jobs and women. You're next.

Ummm...you're stealing my job, or are you asking me out? Perplexed...

[Russ]

both?

[Gray Matter]

Signed: someone who came here to steal y'all's jobs and women. You're next.

Ummm...you're stealing my job, or are you asking me out? Perplexed...

If you steal my job and then ask me out, you're paying.

[BarkingSquirrel]

What are your financial thoughts on it and how it may impact you and your family?

I live in an older industrial American city that lost population for many years.  Over the past decades, immigrants from all over the world have bolstered our population and tax base, rented vacant apartments, put small businesses in empty storefronts, attended the schools and churches, and generally breathed a lot of life into a fading town.  What do I care whether they have some immigration papers; I wish the authorities would stop hassling these good people.  They are a boon to the community, including economically. 

[viper155]

i'm sick of all these foreigners.....my family has had nothing but trouble with them ever since we came to this country!

[prof61820]

I don't see an issue from a financial perspective.  Republican hyperventilating on the issue helps protect incumbents from becoming the next Eric Cantor but drives Latinos to the Democratic party.  This is all political theater.  Don't be a chump and bite.

[Ricky]

My thoughts are that it takes a damn crisis to happen for the gov to react and do something. They are too busy fighting a war they can't win and will never win when we have PLENTY of problems just next door. One of the greatest wars of our history is going on just South of the border, yet we ignore it. Just like the National Debt... It's going to take a serious blow to the dollar for the gov to decide its time to start paying down bills..... and stop unnecessary spending... There is no flippin' point in more border patrol and increased border security when the ROOT of the problem (the Mexican drug war) is still alive and kicking.

I also think its INCREDIBLY stupid and wasteful the way we treat the illegal immigrants that are already here. We seriously give children court hearings and ask them their reasoning for coming over here. #1 They don't speak English. #2 They are kids. American law is a joke.

[FireYourJob]

log term investments

forestry thread is this way -> http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/a-true-non-market-correlated-long-term-nvestment-forestry/

for real though, calling something a crisis without even saying anything to back it up is not the way to start the kind of discussion you claim to be looking for

Thanks for not furthering the discussion at all. I didn't come up with the term "crisis", but it's what the media calls it and it's what it is. There's a bill being floated to approve billions of $$ to help the "Crisis".   What would you rather call it? 

Anyway, back to the topic at hand please...thanks to those that have shared their insights. This audience is generally more educated than most ( although in this thread alone there's lots of name calling re rednecks, Bible thumpers, etc) so I'd like to keep it to the potential financial implications of the issues, not personal stereotype views and political views.

[Bateaux]

Legal or leave.

[prof61820]

log term investments

forestry thread is this way -> http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/a-true-non-market-correlated-long-term-nvestment-forestry/

for real though, calling something a crisis without even saying anything to back it up is not the way to start the kind of discussion you claim to be looking for

Thanks for not furthering the discussion at all. I didn't come up with the term "crisis", but it's what the media calls it and it's what it is. There's a bill being floated to approve billions of $$ to help the "Crisis".   What would you rather call it? 

Anyway, back to the topic at hand please...thanks to those that have shared their insights. This audience is generally more educated than most ( although in this thread alone there's lots of name calling re rednecks, Bible thumpers, etc) so I'd like to keep it to the potential financial implications of the issues, not personal stereotype views and political views.

I think that a lot of people see the children on the Mexican-Texas border as refugees and not illegal immigrants.  It's clear to me what you were referring to when you posted but I read mostly US news and know that FOX is trying to blow this story up to hurt Obama.  However, keep in mind this is a global website and there are all kinds of immigration "crisis" being hyped all over the globe.  This, of course, is not new in the US (for instance, read about the Know-Nothings http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_Nothing) but it is in other parts of the world.

[thepokercab]

log term investments

forestry thread is this way -> http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/a-true-non-market-correlated-long-term-nvestment-forestry/

for real though, calling something a crisis without even saying anything to back it up is not the way to start the kind of discussion you claim to be looking for

Thanks for not furthering the discussion at all. I didn't come up with the term "crisis", but it's what the media calls it and it's what it is. There's a bill being floated to approve billions of $$ to help the "Crisis".   What would you rather call it? 

Anyway, back to the topic at hand please...thanks to those that have shared their insights. This audience is generally more educated than most ( although in this thread alone there's lots of name calling re rednecks, Bible thumpers, etc) so I'd like to keep it to the potential financial implications of the issues, not personal stereotype views and political views.

Just because the media calls it a crisis, doesn't automatically make it one.  A Justin Bieber gaffe is also a crisis to the media.  Everything is a crisis to the media because sensationalism sells. Saying something is a crisis because some politicians or the media say so, doesn't prove anything.  So, to Russ' point, if you're going to start a conversation by calling something a crisis, you can at least cite evidence or data or something, that backs up your assertion.   

[Goldielocks]

Immigration to permanent status should be much easier than it is.  Anyone who can get through the very tough immigration interviews and also get an employment offer and stay employed for three years, should get resident card ( with subject conditions) and be responsible to contribute fully.

US immigration truly sucks.  The quotas, cut offs in processing etc are driving too many underground where they don't want to be, subject ton abuse in pay if nothing else,, and they can't pay taxes or try to get ahead.

I left the usa when, despite 3 years of full time employment as a fully qualified engineer on a working visa, with my 10 yr employer, found out it would be five more years to get a green card.   And all that time I could not change employers or risk buying a home because if I disagreed with my employer, and quit or said no to a relocation, i would have only 30 days to pack up a husband, two kids and move home to Canada.  Anyone who has moved kids internationally will agree that it is not somehing you do with only 30 days notice if you can help it. And housing markets may take a downturn that you need to stick it through.

Yeah, and we could not file married jointly, so I paid more taxes than anyone else, too.. Fewer other deductions.And you don't qualify for social security or pension if you leave before 10 years of full contributions. Yesiree... Three years of soc security fully paid contributions (is that 8k per yr with employer amt?):and I won't see a dime in retirement.  Who in their right mind would pay that for that many years on a chance to win the green card lottery that you name will be processed before the cut off date?  One year they stopped processing in March after 10% of the applications were processed.

No wonder illegal immigration is so rampant, I can guarantee 99% would want a chance at legal migration. Taxes and all.  But the horrible legal method is not working.

So long story in summary. ...  Illegal immigration is bad.. Therefore  open your us borders and immigration to full time working, employer sponsored, taxes paying migrants.  And give them some chance of life security after three years.

[Paul der Krake]

To everyone debating whether there is a crisis or not: what do you call an unprecendented influx of young children travelling thousands of miles alone in gang-ridden territory, in one of the most punishing climates of the entire continent? They're not your typical suburban 12 year old, their parents don't use the "find my iPhone" feature when they call because they got lost, and they certainly don't have AAA.

[EricL]

In total the illegal alien thing doesn't effect me at all.

My 2˘: it's our ancestors fault for grabbing half of Mexico and making it part of the US.  The ship has long sailed on fixing that. It's the Mexican government's (along with others south of the border) fault for allowing their country, even before the war on drugs, to become a cesspool that encourages flight. It's the conservative business interests that looked the other way and even actively blocked legislation that would penalize farms and sweatshops hiring illegal aliens.  If those businesses had been penalized from the git go from hiring the motivation to flee to a better job in the US would gone away.  Illegals  can be losers but I've never met one that wanted to come here to panhandle.  Quite the opposite in fact.  But hey, since Americans aren't open to slave labor type jobs the price of certain good would have had to go up.  It's the liberal's fault the illegals have a voice and legal representation they're not, IMO, entitled to.  Legally they don't have a leg to stand on but thanks to White Guilt they do.  Maybe back in the 1970's we could have fixed this.  But in this case not only have the horses already left the barn, but the they've died of old age, the hinges on the doors have rusted off, and the barn burned down.  Despite my finger pointing, finger pointing is counter productive.  IMO we declare amnesty, register all comers as citizens, open English language schools everywhere, tax our new citizens an extra 5% until they can pass an English proficiency test, and call it a day. 

As for the whole illegal alien children thing, I don't much care for President Obama shelling out billions of tax bucks to fix it.  But it seems his alternatives were: 1) Maintaining the status quo which is itself costly and later producing anti social Mexican adults whom we'd be grateful pan handling was the worst of their aspirations. 2) Shooting them all which would be somewhat cheaper in the short term but much costlier in money and intangibles in other terms.  3) Biting the bullet and working a fix which will probably not be terribly efficient but is certainly better than the first two options.  I've seen my tax dollars spent on much worse.

[prof61820]

To everyone debating whether there is a crisis or not: what do you call an unprecendented influx of young children travelling thousands of miles alone in gang-ridden territory, in one of the most punishing climates of the entire continent? They're not your typical suburban 12 year old, their parents don't use the "find my iPhone" feature when they call because they got lost, and they certainly don't have AAA.

What you described is a "crisis" but not an "illegal immigration crisis."  I think using the phrase "illegal immigration crisis" pretty much politicizes the discussion from the start...

[prof61820]

+s
My 2˘: It's the liberal's fault the illegals have a voice and legal representation they're not, IMO, entitled to.  Legally they don't have a leg to stand on but thanks to White Guilt they do. 

I don't think "White Guilt" has anything to do with it.  A more open immigration policy is simply good, and sometimes hardball, Presidential politics.  First, many "white" voters - many of whom have no issues with diversity - actually see open immigration as a positive for the nation.  Second, without strong Latino support, Republicans (who have alienated African-American voters, younger voters, women voters and gay voters) don't have enough votes to win in most urban, high population States that have a high numbers of Latino voters.  Hell, Texas may actually become a battleground state again if the Repubs keep it up.  If you don't believe me, I suggest you read Karl Rove: http://www.politico.com/story/2014/07/karl-rove-gop-work-with-obama-108760.html

[EricL]

Yeah I knew would push buttons with the White Guilt thing.  But near as I can tell it's true when it comes to strictly legal arguments that's really all they got.  But I tried to be an equal opportunity offender because I also believe it's a joint liberal/conservative screw up.  Unfortunately (fortunately?) I'm gonna have to drop this. Your mention of Karl Rove brings out my inner communist he has nothing productive to say on this.  Though Rove is strangely cooperative.

[prof61820]

I'm no fan of Mr. Rove as well.  However, he does understand the value of cooperating on immigration in relation to Latino votes and the importance of this bloc of voters to elections.  Latinos have been the key to the Republicans success in Texas.  He doesn't want the Tea Party to mess that up - especially in Florida - as they have in California, New York and Illinois, for instance, where Latinos vote Democratic in very high percentages and the States are a sea of very deep blue.  There's no altruism on Mr. Rove's part, however, his position is all about winning and losing elections.

[grantmeaname]

Yeah I knew would push buttons with the White Guilt thing.  But near as I can tell it's true when it comes to strictly legal arguments that's really all they got.

You just got a non legal argument within twenty minutes of your post!

[prof61820]

Here's a legal response from the ACLU's website (https://www.aclu.org/immigrants-rights):  "No Human Being Is Illegal - Upholding the rights of immigrants is important to us all. The fundamental constitutional protections of due process and equal protection embodied in our Constitution and Bill of Rights apply to every "person" and are not limited to citizens.  When the government has the power to deny legal rights and due process to one vulnerable group, everyone’s rights are at risk.  The ACLU Immigrants’ Rights Project is dedicated to expanding and enforcing the civil liberties and civil rights of immigrants and to combating public and private discrimination against them."

If you agree that certain rights provided by the constitution and Bill of Rights are "unalienable," then legally the ACLU may have a valid legal point.  What's the LEGAL counter-argument to this?

[cpa cat]

I think it would be better if the USA had an immigration policy that gave skilled individuals an easier path to legal immigration. I feel that we waste an opportunity when we don't court skilled immigrants, but let anyone with an anchor bring their mother/sister/step-brother and dog into the country. But a revised immigration policy regarding skilled immigrants wouldn't help what's happening on the southern border.

Regarding that problem, I find it difficult to form an opinion, because it's too complicated. Free immigration for anyone who steps across the border would be a huge burden on our country - that could turn into a true crisis. I also understand why people in southern states have a knee-jerk "ZOMG NO WAY!" attitude - because let's face it, the burden of this illegal (or if we so choose - legal) immigration crisis disproportionately affects them. Here in my state, we don't have an immigration crisis - so it has few direct consequences to me if I decide to support amnesty.

I suppose it's my opinion that we need to figure out a legal process for unaccompanied children though. We're talking about people who are so desperate that they send minor children to the USA (often across several countries on the way) for the distant hope of a better life. These people are desperate. Clearly our decision not to offer a path to legal citizenship doesn't make them any less desperate. Some kind of temporary residency status needs to exist for these kids - get them through high school and when they turn 18, give them a year to get gainful employment or into university - and if they don't do it, deport them. The current state of limbo that they exist in - not legal, but also not getting deported, does no one any good.

As for how much financial burden is too much for me? I have no idea. I doubt very much that allowing a path to legal residency to illegal children would have much financial impact on me at all. After all, there is a difference between being a legal resident and a citizen. Make it easier for people to get residency, make it harder for people to sponsor their unskilled family members on a direct path to citizenship.

[luigi49]

Most of the hispanics I know who are legal in this country are against illegal immigrants.  I interact with a lot of hispanics.   

[EricL]

Here's a legal response from the ALCU's website (https://www.aclu.org/immigrants-rights):  "No Human Being Is Illegal - Upholding the rights of immigrants is important to us all. The fundamental constitutional protections of due process and equal protection embodied in our Constitution and Bill of Rights apply to every "person" and are not limited to citizens.  When the government has the power to deny legal rights and due process to one vulnerable group, everyone’s rights are at risk.  The ACLU Immigrants’ Rights Project is dedicated to expanding and enforcing the civil liberties and civil rights of immigrants and to combating public and private discrimination against them."

If you agree that certain rights provided by the constitution and Bill of Rights are "unalienable," then legally the ACLU may have a valid legal point.  What's the LEGAL counter-argument to this?

Thanks for bringing out my inner Republican.  Though you're almost guaranteed to hate him as much if not more than my inner commie.  The ACLU's basic position is that American rights and Civil Liberties extend to all humans (and probably non humans too at some point).  I answer that that position is extending the Constitutional narrative to an idealistic goal not actually written into that document.  There is some precedent for that because women and even black slaves are included in it and we've modified their legal rights according to accepted modern social norms.  I'll go out on a limb and say it's due to White Guilt.  Especially since the practical benefits to immigration seem to take a second seat to it.  But illegal aliens are not so addressed and are here, well, illegally.  As such they have as many rights as a convicted criminal.  The US government has an inherent right to police it's borders and treat them as such within accepted humanitarian laws, norms and diplomatic concessions to neighboring nations. 

But per my original post, we should just say to hell with all this ideological BS and grant citizenship with a little tax to grease the wheels.

The irony to me is Mexicans have a very solid and obnoxiously loud radical socialist/communist element.  They are on the front lines for guess who.  But they're in the minority.  The vast bulk of the illegal aliens are working class conservative Catholics.  I believe once they get settled into the American, and especially Anti-Mustacihian way of life, they'll be the future bedrock of the Republican Party.  Yeah, that's my craziest belief and friends on both sides of the political spectrum vehemently insist I'm full of it.  Time will tell.

[Daisy]

Most of the hispanics I know who are legal in this country are against illegal immigrants.  I interact with a lot of hispanics.

As a hispanic, yes I have heard these comments much too. But I am in South Florida with a different mix of immigrants than the southwest US. It irritates me to hear sometimes, as a US born person with the ease with which immigrants from some countries have in legally coming to the US, when they comment on people from other countries that have a harder legal path to come to the US. Seems hypocritical.

And although I'd like to see more of these immigrants allowed in, there is a financial cost to it and an influx of people at the lower end of the economic scale affects the poor in our country (US). So I really don't have an answer.

The complexities of the process are what bug me. My sister works as a paralegal in immigration so she knows the laws better than me.

I have a friend that was dating someone from a country in South America that immigrated to the US to study (all legally). He graduated college and even got an MBA. He had hired a lawyer to handle his application to become a citizen. He was working as a consultant for some of the top firms and was travelling all over the world, being a very productive citizen. Well then, he planned a trip with my friend in the Caribbean and proposed to her on the trip. On that very same trip back, he got arrested at the airport because apparently his lawyer was a crook and had been taking his money and wasn't submitting any of his papers and did it to others and they were finally cracking down on it. So then he spent 6 months in an immigration jail and was pretty sure he was going to get deported. My friend and he were already planning what to do. She loved him so she figured they would have to move to a third country. They even got married legally (not in a church as they wanted) while he was in jail. Thankfully, due to his good character and spending lots of money on lawyers to get him out of the jail he was allowed to stay and they eventually got married in a church. They kept all of this from their friends because they were so embarassed by it. All I knew was that he was never around and she'd say he was travelling for work. But in reality he lost his job and all because of it. Happy ending...he got his citizenship and they are very happy. Even before this, he was the biggest American flag waving person you could meet.

And I don't think we should just look at immigrants as to what economic value they can bring or just people with skills. What happened to the text we have on the Statue of Liberty: "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free".

To me, the American Dream is about freedom. All of this talk of the American Dream being a big house, good job, unlimited food...sounds great and all but the core of the dream is to be free to be what you want, regardless of your family background, which political party you belong to, and to be free to express yourself and pursue your dreams. Pretty much what the Bill of Rights lays out. Everything else is just gravy.

EDIT: I wanted to add that I also work in software, so I work with many immigrants from other countries. The ones that come here legally complain all of the time about how hard it is for them to come here and then they see the lax attitude towards those not using the legal process. There's probably going to be a big backlash on this whole topic.

[seattlecyclone]

I don't think immigration is a crisis at all. Why should I be entitled to live and work in the US just because I happened to be born on the right side of the border, while other people whose hopes and dreams are just as valid as mine shouldn't have that chance? It's absurd. Europe has moved in a nice direction by more or less abolishing immigration controls within their group of countries. I look forward to a day when anyone can move to any country at any time for any reason, without being forced to justify their presence or wait in a decades-long line for a legal spot to open up.

The real crisis is how our current immigration system forces millions of people to live in secrecy and fear of deportation. Employers can exploit undocumented immigrants with impunity, and their children often spend years here only to be later sent back to a country they don't remember. People like to say "why don't these people just immigrate legally?" Don't you think they would if that was a valid option for them? The truth is that our immigration system is based on a strict quota system. Close family members of existing citizens and legal immigrants get priority; everyone else has to wait in line for decades unless they have exceptional technical skills or qualify under other categories that your average uneducated, low-skilled immigrant simply can't meet.

If I were given power to come up with an immigration system from scratch, it would be pretty simple. Everyone who wants to move here would be able to, provided they pass a criminal background check. New immigrants are immediately allowed to work, immediately required to pay taxes on their earnings, and immediately eligible to send their kids to public schools. For some period of time (five years?) the immigrants would be required to provide their own financial support. No food stamps, government subsidized housing, or certain other programs of that nature. After that, they would be eligible to become naturalized citizens with all the rights and responsibilities that entails.

[FireYourJob]

This thread isn't about if it's a crisis or not. It's about the financial impact of what is becoming an exponentially worse problem the you (if you're a tax paying American )and I are dealing with and the impact to us personally.

I'm happy to debate the financial impacts etc. if you want to discuss crisis or not , please start anotyer thread.

For whoever mentioned fox, nancy pelosi, no friend of fox I'd bet, called it a crisis from her very lips. Now back to the topic of this thread. Thx.

log term investments

forestry thread is this way -> http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/a-true-non-market-correlated-long-term-nvestment-forestry/

for real though, calling something a crisis without even saying anything to back it up is not the way to start the kind of discussion you claim to be looking for

Thanks for not furthering the discussion at all. I didn't come up with the term "crisis", but it's what the media calls it and it's what it is. There's a bill being floated to approve billions of $$ to help the "Crisis".   What would you rather call it? 

Anyway, back to the topic at hand please...thanks to those that have shared their insights. This audience is generally more educated than most ( although in this thread alone there's lots of name calling re rednecks, Bible thumpers, etc) so I'd like to keep it to the potential financial implications of the issues, not personal stereotype views and political views.

Just because the media calls it a crisis, doesn't automatically make it one.  A Justin Bieber gaffe is also a crisis to the media.  Everything is a crisis to the media because sensationalism sells. Saying something is a crisis because some politicians or the media say so, doesn't prove anything.  So, to Russ' point, if you're going to start a conversation by calling something a crisis, you can at least cite evidence or data or something, that backs up your assertion.

[FireYourJob]

Unfortunately, as a mustachian, this approach does not mathematically work. The services you and I in theory benefit from are supplied by our contributions. Now you find more and more you and your family are in line behind people that haven't put into the offering plate but are happily taking from it.

It's a slippery slope and no easy answer of where to draw the line. Our current laws not being enforced is probably the bigger crisis as those laws set a foundation around which the math to support measure increases in immigration are based.

If one thinks our laws are tough , you should read up on the laws of immigrating to most any country south of our border

I'm left wondering why Facebook, Microsoft and others Of the billionaires boys club are pushing this so hard. The people now pouring in at a 10x rate to the last, illegally, are not computer programmers.

So their argument, at least in the context of this crisis, is inconsistent at best.

I don't think immigration is a crisis at all. Why should I be entitled to live and work in the US just because I happened to be born on the right side of the border, while other people whose hopes and dreams are just as valid as mine shouldn't have that chance? It's absurd. Europe has moved in a nice direction by more or less abolishing immigration controls within their group of countries. I look forward to a day when anyone can move to any country at any time for any reason, without being forced to justify their presence or wait in a decades-long line for a legal spot to open up.

The real crisis is how our current immigration system forces millions of people to live in secrecy and fear of deportation. Employers can exploit undocumented immigrants with impunity, and their children often spend years here only to be later sent back to a country they don't remember. People like to say "why don't these people just immigrate legally?" Don't you think they would if that was a valid option for them? The truth is that our immigration system is based on a strict quota system. Close family members of existing citizens and legal immigrants get priority; everyone else has to wait in line for decades unless they have exceptional technical skills or qualify under other categories that your average uneducated, low-skilled immigrant simply can't meet.

If I were given power to come up with an immigration system from scratch, it would be pretty simple. Everyone who wants to move here would be able to, provided they pass a criminal background check. New immigrants are immediately allowed to work, immediately required to pay taxes on their earnings, and immediately eligible to send their kids to public schools. For some period of time (five years?) the immigrants would be required to provide their own financial support. No food stamps, government subsidized housing, or certain other programs of that nature. After that, they would be eligible to become naturalized citizens with all the rights and responsibilities that entails.

[prof61820]

I'm happy to debate the financial impacts etc. if you want to discuss crisis or not , please start anotyer thread.

What are the financial impacts?  Most here agree that there's a crisis at the border now.  However, you are offering a lot of unsupported conclusions as an argument in support of your view that there is a crisis in illegal immigration.  If you present some facts to support your opinions, that may help with the discussion you hope to have on this thread.

[fixer-upper]

Immigration fuels inflation, which the politicians and banks want.  For that reason, there will be no effective border control, and the politicians will continue their partisan dog and pony show.  Can you imagine what would happen to vacancy rates and property values if we shipped 10 million people out of the country?  Nobody in DC is willing to take responsibility for that sort of crash.

On the flip side, can you imagine the boom in the labor market if we shipped 10 million people out of the country? 

As for the 'crisis', it'll only be in the news long enough to get the president's 3.7 billion pork bill passed.  After that, a new crisis will be created and pumped.

[Paul der Krake]

I'm left wondering why Facebook, Microsoft and others Of the billionaires boys club are pushing this so hard. The people now pouring in at a 10x rate to the last, illegally, are not computer programmers.

Facebook and other tech firms only care about the skilled labor paths into the country. However they believe the best way to achieve this is to get congres to overhaul the entire system, because they've tried increasing the infamous H-1B cap on its own for years to no avail. That's just how lobbying works.

[prof61820]

Here's a legal response from the ALCU's website (https://www.aclu.org/immigrants-rights):  "No Human Being Is Illegal - Upholding the rights of immigrants is important to us all. The fundamental constitutional protections of due process and equal protection embodied in our Constitution and Bill of Rights apply to every "person" and are not limited to citizens.  When the government has the power to deny legal rights and due process to one vulnerable group, everyone’s rights are at risk.  The ACLU Immigrants’ Rights Project is dedicated to expanding and enforcing the civil liberties and civil rights of immigrants and to combating public and private discrimination against them."

If you agree that certain rights provided by the constitution and Bill of Rights are "unalienable," then legally the ACLU may have a valid legal point.  What's the LEGAL counter-argument to this?

Thanks for bringing out my inner Republican.  Though you're almost guaranteed to hate him as much if not more than my inner commie.  The ACLU's basic position is that American rights and Civil Liberties extend to all humans (and probably non humans too at some point).  I answer that that position is extending the Constitutional narrative to an idealistic goal not actually written into that document.  There is some precedent for that because women and even black slaves are included in it and we've modified their legal rights according to accepted modern social norms.  I'll go out on a limb and say it's due to White Guilt.  Especially since the practical benefits to immigration seem to take a second seat to it.  But illegal aliens are not so addressed and are here, well, illegally.  As such they have as many rights as a convicted criminal.  The US government has an inherent right to police it's borders and treat them as such within accepted humanitarian laws, norms and diplomatic concessions to neighboring nations. 

But per my original post, we should just say to hell with all this ideological BS and grant citizenship with a little tax to grease the wheels.

The irony to me is Mexicans have a very solid and obnoxiously loud radical socialist/communist element.  They are on the front lines for guess who.  But they're in the minority.  The vast bulk of the illegal aliens are working class conservative Catholics.  I believe once they get settled into the American, and especially Anti-Mustacihian way of life, they'll be the future bedrock of the Republican Party.  Yeah, that's my craziest belief and friends on both sides of the political spectrum vehemently insist I'm full of it.  Time will tell.

Yes, but what is your "inner Republican" legal argument?  Are you saying that the concept of unalienable rights is incorrect?  Our friends in the NRA may object to this view of the 2nd Amendment...BTW, I think your solution to the immigration issue is very practical.  I don't agree with it all but could easily work with it in a negotiation...it's a shame that national politics is impeding this type of civil discourse on immigration.  This shouldn't come as a surprise, however, because immigration has been a hot button political issue in the US for 150 years.

[seattlecyclone]

Unfortunately, as a mustachian, this approach does not mathematically work. The services you and I in theory benefit from are supplied by our contributions. Now you find more and more you and your family are in line behind people that haven't put into the offering plate but are happily taking from it.

Did you miss the part where I suggested there should be a five-year waiting period before new immigrants should be allowed to "take from the offering plate," as you put it? These people would come in, work hard, paying taxes and supporting themselves for the first five years. If they manage to make it five years without resorting to welfare programs, they're pretty unlikely to need them in year six. But at that point we welcome them into full citizenship with open arms, and they would then be eligible for whatever public assistance you and I would qualify for if we were down on our luck. What's wrong with that plan?

It's a slippery slope and no easy answer of where to draw the line. Our current laws not being enforced is probably the bigger crisis as those laws set a foundation around which the math to support measure increases in immigration are based.

I don't know where you got the idea that current laws aren't being enforced. The rate of deportations is at an all-time-high since President Obama took office. Millions of undocumented immigrants remain, sure, but the current immigration policy is being enforced on a pretty wide scale.

I'm left wondering why Facebook, Microsoft and others Of the billionaires boys club are pushing this so hard. The people now pouring in at a 10x rate to the last, illegally, are not computer programmers.

Indeed, but the immigration quotas affect all levels of the job market. There's a special "H1-B' visa for technical workers such as software developers, that are only available to employers who have tried and failed to find qualified talent domestically. Last year's visas were snapped up in just seven days, as employers collectively submitted two applications for each of the 65,000 available visas. This year, they took applications for less than a week and still received more than two applications for each visa. The 65,000 lucky winners get to move to the US on a temporary basis, with a visa that leads to no promise of a green card or citizenship at any point in the future. Those workers are allowed to bring families with them, but their spouses are not allowed to work.

Meanwhile, the talent shortage is real. I've been working in software for the past five years and have never once been part of a group that didn't have openings for good software developers. We need more visas for skilled workers, and we need them now. Companies like Facebook and Microsoft may not directly care about immigration reform on the bottom of the skill ladder, but many in Washington insist on reforming the whole thing all at once or not at all. Given that, a wide-ranging immigration reform is what they're lobbying for.

[chasesfish]

I'm probably the furthest out here on thought:

I'm very pro-immigration, I think it should have some very minimal requirements to enter this country (passport, no criminal history), then citizenship is based off education and/or employment.  Employment can be tracked through the home country's passport.  If they don't have one, let them get a passport in their country's embassy in the US.  The free movement of minds is a good thing.

As for the US/Mexico boarder, for some reason we've messed around with this for 30 years as a country while having the strongest military in the world.  Just send them down there and it'll be sealed up quickly.  Its not a very sensitive solution, but the illegal boarder crossing will stop very quickly when entering is easy and only people with criminal histories have to illegally cross.


Unfortunately our politicians meddle in the middle and nothing gets solved. 

[grantmeaname]

As for the US/Mexico boarder, for some reason we've messed around with this for 30 years as a country while having the strongest military in the world.  Just send them down there and it'll be sealed up quickly.  Its not a very sensitive solution, but the illegal boarder crossing will stop very quickly when entering is easy and only people with criminal histories have to illegally cross.

Unfortunately our politicians meddle in the middle and nothing gets solved.

It's not 'meddling in the middle' if the electorate doesn't agree on what the right thing to do is - and you admit that your proposal isn't supported by the people. So why are you surprised the pols haven't implemented it?

[Albert]

In the case of the Southern border of US it is at this point more of a refugee issue than simple migration in search of more opportunities. Some areas in Mexico and Central America (Honduras is the worst) are so violent that there are only two options for young people without any special eduction or protection - work for drug mafia or leave.

[chasesfish]

As for the US/Mexico boarder, for some reason we've messed around with this for 30 years as a country while having the strongest military in the world.  Just send them down there and it'll be sealed up quickly.  Its not a very sensitive solution, but the illegal boarder crossing will stop very quickly when entering is easy and only people with criminal histories have to illegally cross.

Unfortunately our politicians meddle in the middle and nothing gets solved.

It's not 'meddling in the middle' if the electorate doesn't agree on what the right thing to do is - and you admit that your proposal isn't supported by the people. So why are you surprised the pols haven't implemented it?

I believe leaders have to make the right choices, even if they don't poll as popular.  One side can be happy that the boarder is sealed, the other can be happy we have real immigration reform.

Doing nothing is pretty unpopular too


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[centwise]

I left the usa when, despite 3 years of full time employment as a fully qualified engineer on a working visa, with my 10 yr employer, found out it would be five more years to get a green card...   

And you don't qualify for social security or pension if you leave before 10 years of full contributions. Yesiree... Three years of soc security fully paid contributions (is that 8k per yr with employer amt?):and I won't see a dime in retirement. 

This is slightly off-topic and a minor thread hijack, but I wanted to reply briefly to goldielocks' statement (bolded above), which is not strictly true. The US and Canada have a Totalization Agreement which is intended to benefit people who have worked in both countries. Sorry I don't know all the details, but the years you worked in the US can supposedly contribute to your eventual CPP benefit in Canada. I.e., in order to qualify for the full CPP benefit you have to work in Canada (and contribute to CPP) for 40 years; the years you worked in the US should at least count toward those 40 years. Yeah it's small, but it's something.

[Joel]

I have not read any of the replies, but it is very difficult and a long process for an immigrant to move here legally. They need to reduce the red tape and you might have less illegal immigrants. Besides somebody has to do the work that nobody else will do. The Americans that should be doing the work would rather be on welfare.

[DoubleDown]

Here's a major financial impact where we live:

(Mostly illegal) immigration has increased the student population at my kids' elementary and middle schools by over 40% in the last 5-6 years. There's just no room to hold that gigantic increase in population so quickly, so class sizes have ballooned from 15-20 students per class to 25-30 students per classroom. They've installed about 10 temporary "trailers" or mobile homes on the school grounds as classrooms, taking away playground space and athletic fields, and giving students a view out their window of a trailer instead of a tree.

Each school typically has hired 3-5 ESL (English as a Second Language) teachers. One elementary school nearby has 10 ESL teachers! I can't even imagine the cost of employing hundreds of ESL teachers -- safe to say it's in the tens of millions in tax dollars.

Of course, the school district has had to increase its budget enormously to accommodate such a large influx, and property taxes have increased a very large amount to cover it. Those property taxes are paid by homeowners, which for the most part are not the people immigrating here illegally.

Therefore, while the quality of education and school experience declines, we're paying much more for the privilege.

Police, fire, EMS, hospital ER's are all similarly strained handling the larger population. All the agencies are fighting over dwindling budget dollars that are being overstretched.

Also, it's sadly common to see neighborhoods where immigrant families will pack in 15-20 people into a single small house, with as many as 5-10 cars per house parked in the street, driveway, and lawn. Those neighborhoods decline in value of course. I'll typically see about 20-30 guys hanging out in front of the 7-11 in the morning trying to get a job for the day. Or others just loitering around all day. I appreciate the guys trying to get work, but it doesn't help the image or value of those neighborhoods.

Plenty of added crime as well. Many of the guys that have come here came from rough upbringings in their home countries, had gang affiliations and criminal histories. They're similarly up to no good here. Illegal immigrants represent an outsize proportion of crime in our area relative to their population. Which shouldn't be surprising considering the rough/criminal backgrounds of many of them, and the connection between poverty and crime.

[davisgang90]

To everyone debating whether there is a crisis or not: what do you call an unprecendented influx of young children travelling thousands of miles alone in gang-ridden territory, in one of the most punishing climates of the entire continent? They're not your typical suburban 12 year old, their parents don't use the "find my iPhone" feature when they call because they got lost, and they certainly don't have AAA.

What you described is a "crisis" but not an "illegal immigration crisis."  I think using the phrase "illegal immigration crisis" pretty much politicizes the discussion from the start...

So its a crisis but if we call it illegal immigration it politicizes the discussion.  What should we call it?  I agree, illegal immigrant is hurtful, let's call them Free-Range Democrats.

[prof61820]

To everyone debating whether there is a crisis or not: what do you call an unprecendented influx of young children travelling thousands of miles alone in gang-ridden territory, in one of the most punishing climates of the entire continent? They're not your typical suburban 12 year old, their parents don't use the "find my iPhone" feature when they call because they got lost, and they certainly don't have AAA.

What you described is a "crisis" but not an "illegal immigration crisis."  I think using the phrase "illegal immigration crisis" pretty much politicizes the discussion from the start...

So its a crisis but if we call it illegal immigration it politicizes the discussion.  What should we call it?  I agree, illegal immigrant is hurtful, let's call them Free-Range Democrats.

I was wondering how long it would take the Koch Brothers team to arrive on this thread?  Keep this in mind, your pollsters really, really suck.  Just ask Eric Cantor.  You're going to get clobbered on this issue.

[Big Boots Buddha]

My concern is: what is the endgame? How many people are enough? Everyone in Central America? Most don't speak English and some Ameri-Indians don't even speak Spanish. From what I understand half the population of El Salvador moved to the USA in the last generation.

That seems like a large amount of money if the only "compassionate" thing to do is accept woman and child (tough luck Jesus) from Mexico to Columbia. What would the "fair" thing be to do? Take 20-30 million people and then seperate them to each city larger than 100,000 people or seperate them based on size of cities (ie. NY and LA get a large amount) while Columbus OH gets 10,000.

Its not about now, what exactly is "the plan"? Why not spend 5 billion, build a 50 ft wall that also goes 20-30 ft underground of concrete and razor wire by American workers. Then let everyone become US citizens that are here and ship everyone else back who somehow makes it here afterwards in nice buses with nurses and armed guards for protection.

If the end goal is: accept every person in the world who can come to the USA and give them free medical services, job training and food stamps, get ready for 500 million Chinese and Indians. I live in China, People can afford plane tickets.