Author Topic: What are your thoughts on the illegal immigration crisis?  (Read 48552 times)

fixer-upper

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Re: What are your thoughts on the illegal immigration crisis?
« Reply #150 on: August 17, 2014, 03:28:57 PM »
Also, many of them pay taxes into our social security system, with no chance of ever collecting.  Those "illegals" are helping to float our Social Security Ponzi scheme.
they're also helping to float the housing market.  Can you imagine how far rents and purchase prices would drop if we deported 10M+ illegal aliens?

The problem to me though, with these kinds of arguments (paying taxes to Social Security, 10 million renters) is that those factors are heavily diluted by the local impact. So, let's say some percentage of the illegal population pays some Social Security taxes on any above-board labor they perform. As I stated above, my County alone is absorbing hundreds of millions of dollars in additional costs supporting the huge influx of immigrant children in the schools alone (let alone providing affordable housing, food, and so on). I'd expect that if you totaled up all the Social Security taxes paid by the illegals in my County, it would be a tiny fraction of the taxes being used to support the population.

And so I go back to my statement from before -- I feel bad for these people in how they have it in their countries, but don't we owe it to our own citizens and migrating residents that went through all the pain-staking effort to come and stay here legally, to support them first? Why should tax money be spent building more schools and affordable housing to absorb the influx of people violating our laws to get here, when it could be used to feed hungry children that are already here (legally), or other causes? I am resentful that my substantial property tax dollars are being eaten up building new schools and hiring ESL teachers.

I agree with you in principal, but was pointing out another reason why the Feds won't fix the problem.  IMHO, illegal immigration will continue until high inflation makes it undesirable. 

Doaner19

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Re: What are your thoughts on the illegal immigration crisis?
« Reply #151 on: August 21, 2014, 12:03:23 AM »
Build a fence w/ watchtowers and all the technologies possible to keep people out.  That's how you shut off the spigot.

Then we work on those that are already here.  Not going to get rid of 11m people, but why can't you get rid of those that get arrested and convicted of crimes?  What good are they doing....

grantmeaname

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Re: What are your thoughts on the illegal immigration crisis?
« Reply #152 on: August 21, 2014, 05:38:56 AM »
Build a fence w/ watchtowers and all the technologies possible to keep people out.
Did you read the thread?

Paul der Krake

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Re: What are your thoughts on the illegal immigration crisis?
« Reply #153 on: August 21, 2014, 06:36:38 AM »
This country's way of knowing who can or can't be here relies on a broken list of easily stolen strings of 9 digits that was put in place in 1936, and you want technology able to fully secure a 2,000 mile stretch of land, along with its underground and air space, and untold numbers of nautical miles of beaches on the coast from people who are literally ready to cross or die trying? Haha.

YeahNo

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Re: What are your thoughts on the illegal immigration crisis?
« Reply #154 on: August 21, 2014, 08:14:29 AM »
deleted. wrong post
« Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 08:16:26 AM by YeahNo »

RunHappy

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Re: What are your thoughts on the illegal immigration crisis?
« Reply #155 on: August 21, 2014, 09:50:13 AM »
The rules of allowing yourself to be called an "American" are fluid and arbitrary at best.  The laws that govern it are constantly changing and not due to to any real logics its almost always due to emotion (not the way to run a government).

I personally have no problem with "illegal" people working here.  They are taking jobs that some Americans think they are too good for. 

<took out the rant at the end>
« Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 09:56:19 AM by RunHappy »

oldtoyota

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Re: What are your thoughts on the illegal immigration crisis?
« Reply #156 on: August 21, 2014, 09:54:05 AM »
i'm sick of all these foreigners.....my family has had nothing but trouble with them ever since we came to this country!

When they moved here, was there a "crisis"?


infogoon

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Re: What are your thoughts on the illegal immigration crisis?
« Reply #157 on: August 21, 2014, 01:42:29 PM »
This country's way of knowing who can or can't be here relies on a broken list of easily stolen strings of 9 digits that was put in place in 1936, and you want technology able to fully secure a 2,000 mile stretch of land, along with its underground and air space, and untold numbers of nautical miles of beaches on the coast from people who are literally ready to cross or die trying? Haha.

This is a country that can't even keep drugs and cell phones out of maximum security prisons. I don't know how we're expected to defend thousands of miles of open space.

matchewed

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Re: What are your thoughts on the illegal immigration crisis?
« Reply #158 on: August 21, 2014, 03:06:19 PM »
This country's way of knowing who can or can't be here relies on a broken list of easily stolen strings of 9 digits that was put in place in 1936, and you want technology able to fully secure a 2,000 mile stretch of land, along with its underground and air space, and untold numbers of nautical miles of beaches on the coast from people who are literally ready to cross or die trying? Haha.

This is a country that can't even keep drugs and cell phones out of maximum security prisons. I don't know how we're expected to defend thousands of miles of open space.

Oh no one really expects us to; anyone who suggests otherwise is seriously underestimating the difficulty, expense, and complexity of the task at hand.

GuitarStv

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Re: What are your thoughts on the illegal immigration crisis?
« Reply #159 on: August 22, 2014, 05:37:32 AM »
This country's way of knowing who can or can't be here relies on a broken list of easily stolen strings of 9 digits that was put in place in 1936, and you want technology able to fully secure a 2,000 mile stretch of land, along with its underground and air space, and untold numbers of nautical miles of beaches on the coast from people who are literally ready to cross or die trying? Haha.

This is a country that can't even keep drugs and cell phones out of maximum security prisons. I don't know how we're expected to defend thousands of miles of open space.

Oh no one really expects us to; anyone who suggests otherwise is seriously underestimating the difficulty, expense, and complexity of the task at hand.

After watching fox news for a while, I'm reasonably certain that building a really big fence and screaming at people is the most logical way to handle the complexities of the situation.

infogoon

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Re: What are your thoughts on the illegal immigration crisis?
« Reply #160 on: August 22, 2014, 07:31:45 AM »
After watching fox news for a while, I'm reasonably certain that building a really big fence and screaming at people is the most logical way to handle the complexities of the any situation.

Fixed that for you.

Scandium

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Re: What are your thoughts on the illegal immigration crisis?
« Reply #161 on: August 22, 2014, 07:38:31 AM »
The rules of allowing yourself to be called an "American" are fluid and arbitrary at best.  The laws that govern it are constantly changing and not due to to any real logics its almost always due to emotion (not the way to run a government).

I personally have no problem with "illegal" people working here.  They are taking jobs that some Americans think they are too good for. 

<took out the rant at the end>

See this all the time, but always wondered if it has been verified. Are there really tons of unemployed Americans that have been offered jobs cleaning hotel rooms and refuse? I'd like to see an interview with an unemployed person with starving children saying he/she has it bad, but refuse to mow lawns for a living.

jordanread

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Re: What are your thoughts on the illegal immigration crisis?
« Reply #162 on: August 22, 2014, 10:45:39 AM »
Here's a major financial impact where we live:
[...]
Also, it's sadly common to see neighborhoods where immigrant families will pack in 15-20 people into a single small house, with as many as 5-10 cars per house parked in the street, driveway, and lawn. Those neighborhoods decline in value of course. I'll typically see about 20-30 guys hanging out in front of the 7-11 in the morning trying to get a job for the day. Or others just loitering around all day. I appreciate the guys trying to get work, but it doesn't help the image or value of those neighborhoods.
[...]

I've seen this happen before, but wanted to share a completely different experience I had relatively recently. I don't live in the nicest part of town, but hey, it goes with my FIRE plan. Anyway, after the house near us had been sitting on the market for a while, it finally got sold. My new neighbors, who purchased the place via an LLC started moving in. It started out pretty much how I expected. 2 huge pickups, 3 box trucks, two sedans, one sports car. Dad, Mom, Son, Daughter, Daughter, Son, Sister-in-law, sister-in-law son, cousin, and a couple more. 2 Chihuahuas and a pitbull.

They tore up half of their front yard turning it into a dirt driveway, vehicles parked all over the place. It was bad. At this time, one of the houses up the street sold for something like $35K (yeah, that kind of bad neighborhood). Pretty much matched the stereotypes to the letter. However, about a month later, the house got painted, nice rocks got thrown down and the new driveway got graded. A new fence got built (not chain-link), and the front yard got landscaped. Suddenly their house looked better than mine. They put a gate from the alley in, and their vehicles were parked out of sight. As I got to know them, they all live in this house because they pretty much just sleep there (and play outside), and they said they can save all kinds of money on rent by splitting it 15(ish) ways (note: my house has an extra add-on, so it's a bit bigger...mortgage is around $550 for me). Talking to the dad, he runs his own business, and was in the process of getting legal status, even though not everyone in the house is legal. The son was flipping cars, no payments, and grossing about $4K twice/year. The small kids spend all of their time playing outside, catching bugs, playing with the dogs (theirs and mine), etc. Every weekend they setup a karaoke/band thing in the backyard and the entire family participates. They restore a bit of my faith in humanity, and always make me smile.

It was an unexpected, but ultimately awesome turn of events. Raised my property value by about 8% over the course of the year. After seeing what they did, we prettied up our stuff, then our neighbors did theirs, and the entire neighborhood has greatly improved. It's still not great, but better than before they lived there. It's anecdotal, but just thought I'd share this experience.

My opinion is that any advanced STEM degree should come with a green card.

I can't find the original article that brought it to my attention, but I've always thought it was strange that we have no issues letting people come for an education, but then send them home. I'll keep looking for the article, but it mentioned that we are essentially losing out on a huge amount of potential talent. Not sure why this is, but it might have something to do with fear and the hyper-sensitivity to anything related to jobs.

As far as the actual topic, I've only seen net positive benefits, especially in my neighborhood. I must admit though, that I have trouble thinking from a 'country' specific place. I've tried thinking on a global scale, and travelled quite a bit, so it's a difficult concept in general for me to really get my head around. I do get some of the viewpoints presented, but it's really hard for me to get motivated enough to truly look into it. Not sure if this makes me a bad person or not, but it's worked for me.

CarFIRE

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Re: What are your thoughts on the illegal immigration crisis?
« Reply #163 on: August 24, 2014, 09:01:39 AM »
Most of the US problems are caused by too many people.  There was a time where our open-door policy to immigration made sense.  It no longer does.  However, the 2 established parties want illegal immigration to continue:  R because it keeps labor costs low.  D because they ultimately gain voters.  We should have an immigration policy similar to Australia.  You have to show solid means of support or assets to care for yourself, otherwise we'll have you as a tourist but you need to GTFO eventually. 

We need to control our borders and get rid of the drain on our coffers from the tired, huddled masses.  It is a humanitarian crisis in some cases, but why is that the US's problem? 

jordanread

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Re: What are your thoughts on the illegal immigration crisis?
« Reply #164 on: August 24, 2014, 10:33:26 AM »
Most of the US problems are caused by too many people.  There was a time where our open-door policy to immigration made sense.  It no longer does.  However, the 2 established parties want illegal immigration to continue:  R because it keeps labor costs low.  D because they ultimately gain voters.  We should have an immigration policy similar to Australia.  You have to show solid means of support or assets to care for yourself, otherwise we'll have you as a tourist but you need to GTFO eventually. 

We need to control our borders and get rid of the drain on our coffers from the tired, huddled masses.  It is a humanitarian crisis in some cases, but why is that the US's problem?
And if it got fixed, they'd have to find other emotionally charged issue to campaign on. :-) 
When you said why is it the US's problem, what do you mean exactly? I think you mean that we let people in due to humanitarian issues taking place where they are coming from, but just want to make sure.

Albert

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Re: What are your thoughts on the illegal immigration crisis?
« Reply #165 on: August 24, 2014, 12:58:42 PM »
Most of the US problems are caused by too many people.  There was a time where our open-door policy to immigration made sense.  It no longer does.  However, the 2 established parties want illegal immigration to continue:  R because it keeps labor costs low.  D because they ultimately gain voters.  We should have an immigration policy similar to Australia.  You have to show solid means of support or assets to care for yourself, otherwise we'll have you as a tourist but you need to GTFO eventually. 

We need to control our borders and get rid of the drain on our coffers from the tired, huddled masses.  It is a humanitarian crisis in some cases, but why is that the US's problem?

Last time I heard Australia has a lot of immigration. They have no land borders so it's a bit more difficult to get there without any visa at all. US has a very low population density compared to most rich countries.

CarFIRE

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Re: What are your thoughts on the illegal immigration crisis?
« Reply #166 on: August 25, 2014, 12:49:42 AM »
Most of the US problems are caused by too many people.  There was a time where our open-door policy to immigration made sense.  It no longer does.  However, the 2 established parties want illegal immigration to continue:  R because it keeps labor costs low.  D because they ultimately gain voters.  We should have an immigration policy similar to Australia.  You have to show solid means of support or assets to care for yourself, otherwise we'll have you as a tourist but you need to GTFO eventually. 

We need to control our borders and get rid of the drain on our coffers from the tired, huddled masses.  It is a humanitarian crisis in some cases, but why is that the US's problem?
And if it got fixed, they'd have to find other emotionally charged issue to campaign on. :-) 
When you said why is it the US's problem, what do you mean exactly? I think you mean that we let people in due to humanitarian issues taking place where they are coming from, but just want to make sure.

Correct.  We may be arich nation, but that doesnt mean we have a moral obligation to help everyone.  Ultimately we can't and shouldn't.  As far as population density, yes wearen lower density if you include large swaths of prarie etc.  But when you look at quality of life in urban areas etc. We would have lower polution and less competition for resources if we just had fewer people

libertarian4321

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Re: What are your thoughts on the illegal immigration crisis?
« Reply #167 on: August 25, 2014, 01:13:35 AM »
Also, many of them pay taxes into our social security system, with no chance of ever collecting.  Those "illegals" are helping to float our Social Security Ponzi scheme.
they're also helping to float the housing market.  Can you imagine how far rents and purchase prices would drop if we deported 10M+ illegal aliens?

The problem to me though, with these kinds of arguments (paying taxes to Social Security, 10 million renters) is that those factors are heavily diluted by the local impact. So, let's say some percentage of the illegal population pays some Social Security taxes on any above-board labor they perform. As I stated above, my County alone is absorbing hundreds of millions of dollars in additional costs supporting the huge influx of immigrant children in the schools alone (let alone providing affordable housing, food, and so on). I'd expect that if you totaled up all the Social Security taxes paid by the illegals in my County, it would be a tiny fraction of the taxes being used to support the population.


Remember, "illegals" also pay tons of other taxes in addition to SS.

They pay school taxes and other taxes, whether they rent or own (just like citizens do), they pay sales taxes, gas taxes, usage fees and taxes.  They often pay other local taxes too (either directly or indirectly)- water, sewage, and the like.

Runge

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Re: What are your thoughts on the illegal immigration crisis?
« Reply #168 on: August 25, 2014, 03:29:35 PM »
Most of the US problems are caused by too many people.  There was a time where our open-door policy to immigration made sense.  It no longer does.  However, the 2 established parties want illegal immigration to continue:  R because it keeps labor costs low.  D because they ultimately gain voters.  We should have an immigration policy similar to Australia.  You have to show solid means of support or assets to care for yourself, otherwise we'll have you as a tourist but you need to GTFO eventually. 

We need to control our borders and get rid of the drain on our coffers from the tired, huddled masses.  It is a humanitarian crisis in some cases, but why is that the US's problem?
And if it got fixed, they'd have to find other emotionally charged issue to campaign on. :-) 
When you said why is it the US's problem, what do you mean exactly? I think you mean that we let people in due to humanitarian issues taking place where they are coming from, but just want to make sure.

Correct.  We may be arich nation, but that doesnt mean we have a moral obligation to help everyone.  Ultimately we can't and shouldn't.  As far as population density, yes wearen lower density if you include large swaths of prarie etc.  But when you look at quality of life in urban areas etc. We would have lower polution and less competition for resources if we just had fewer people

I'm completely disagree. We are a rich nation with plenty of resources at our disposal. It would seem pretty selfish if all we cared about was helping ourselves and not caring about humanitarian issues. I'm not saying we have to throw all of our resources at humanitarian issues, but let's be real here. It would seem like a pretty terrible life to live if all we cared about was amassing wealth for our personal gain and not giving a wooden nickel to anyone who seriously needs assistance.

jordanread

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Re: What are your thoughts on the illegal immigration crisis?
« Reply #169 on: August 25, 2014, 03:56:16 PM »
Most of the US problems are caused by too many people.  There was a time where our open-door policy to immigration made sense.  It no longer does.  However, the 2 established parties want illegal immigration to continue:  R because it keeps labor costs low.  D because they ultimately gain voters.  We should have an immigration policy similar to Australia.  You have to show solid means of support or assets to care for yourself, otherwise we'll have you as a tourist but you need to GTFO eventually. 

We need to control our borders and get rid of the drain on our coffers from the tired, huddled masses.  It is a humanitarian crisis in some cases, but why is that the US's problem?
And if it got fixed, they'd have to find other emotionally charged issue to campaign on. :-) 
When you said why is it the US's problem, what do you mean exactly? I think you mean that we let people in due to humanitarian issues taking place where they are coming from, but just want to make sure.

Correct.  We may be arich nation, but that doesnt mean we have a moral obligation to help everyone.  Ultimately we can't and shouldn't.  As far as population density, yes wearen lower density if you include large swaths of prarie etc.  But when you look at quality of life in urban areas etc. We would have lower polution and less competition for resources if we just had fewer people

I'm completely disagree. We are a rich nation with plenty of resources at our disposal. It would seem pretty selfish if all we cared about was helping ourselves and not caring about humanitarian issues. I'm not saying we have to throw all of our resources at humanitarian issues, but let's be real here. It would seem like a pretty terrible life to live if all we cared about was amassing wealth for our personal gain and not giving a wooden nickel to anyone who seriously needs assistance.

What part do you disagree with? I agree that we don't have any obligation at all. That being said, I think we should do it, but that would require asset allocation away from the stupid stuff, and I don't see that happening any time soon.