What are your thoughts on the illegal immigration crisis?

[freki]

To everyone debating whether there is a crisis or not: what do you call an unprecendented influx of young children travelling thousands of miles alone in gang-ridden territory, in one of the most punishing climates of the entire continent? They're not your typical suburban 12 year old, their parents don't use the "find my iPhone" feature when they call because they got lost, and they certainly don't have AAA.

What you described is a "crisis" but not an "illegal immigration crisis."  I think using the phrase "illegal immigration crisis" pretty much politicizes the discussion from the start...

So its a crisis but if we call it illegal immigration it politicizes the discussion.  What should we call it?  I agree, illegal immigrant is hurtful, let's call them Free-Range Democrats.

Maryland's governor refers to them as 'new Americans'. 

[davisgang90]

To everyone debating whether there is a crisis or not: what do you call an unprecendented influx of young children travelling thousands of miles alone in gang-ridden territory, in one of the most punishing climates of the entire continent? They're not your typical suburban 12 year old, their parents don't use the "find my iPhone" feature when they call because they got lost, and they certainly don't have AAA.

What you described is a "crisis" but not an "illegal immigration crisis."  I think using the phrase "illegal immigration crisis" pretty much politicizes the discussion from the start...

So its a crisis but if we call it illegal immigration it politicizes the discussion.  What should we call it?  I agree, illegal immigrant is hurtful, let's call them Free-Range Democrats.

I was wondering how long it would take the Koch Brothers team to arrive on this thread?  Keep this in mind, your pollsters really, really suck.  Just ask Eric Cantor.  You're going to get clobbered on this issue.

Eric Cantor started to cave on amnesty.  That's why he went bye-bye.  I am enough of a realist to acknowledge we can't send 12 million people home to get in line, but we need to come up with a system that doesn't continue to reward breaking our laws.

[prof61820]

To everyone debating whether there is a crisis or not: what do you call an unprecendented influx of young children travelling thousands of miles alone in gang-ridden territory, in one of the most punishing climates of the entire continent? They're not your typical suburban 12 year old, their parents don't use the "find my iPhone" feature when they call because they got lost, and they certainly don't have AAA.

What you described is a "crisis" but not an "illegal immigration crisis."  I think using the phrase "illegal immigration crisis" pretty much politicizes the discussion from the start...

So its a crisis but if we call it illegal immigration it politicizes the discussion.  What should we call it?  I agree, illegal immigrant is hurtful, let's call them Free-Range Democrats.

I was wondering how long it would take the Koch Brothers team to arrive on this thread?  Keep this in mind, your pollsters really, really suck.  Just ask Eric Cantor.  You're going to get clobbered on this issue.

Eric Cantor started to cave on amnesty.  That's why he went bye-bye.  I am enough of a realist to acknowledge we can't send 12 million people home to get in line, but we need to come up with a system that doesn't continue to reward breaking our laws.

I think the ball is in Speaker Boehner's court now.  Let's see if he does anything or just postures like he has for the last 4 years.

[prof61820]

From today's Washington Post: "Glenn Beck says he has come under fierce attack from some of his fellow conservatives for a grave transgression.

His crime? He announced plans to bring food, water, teddy bears and soccer balls to at least some of the tens of thousands of Central American children who have crossed the border into the United States.

“Through no fault of their own, they are caught in political crossfire,” Beck said. “Anyone, left or right, seeking political gain at the expense of these desperate, vulnerable, poor and suffering people are reprehensible.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ej-dionne-republicans-are-bordering-on-heartless/2014/07/13/cc152306-092e-11e4-8a6a-19355c7e870a_story.html

[TrulyStashin]

Immigration to permanent status should be much easier than it is.  Anyone who can get through the very tough immigration interviews and also get an employment offer and stay employed for three years, should get resident card ( with subject conditions) and be responsible to contribute fully.

US immigration truly sucks.  The quotas, cut offs in processing etc are driving too many underground where they don't want to be, subject ton abuse in pay if nothing else,, and they can't pay taxes or try to get ahead.

I left the usa when, despite 3 years of full time employment as a fully qualified engineer on a working visa, with my 10 yr employer, found out it would be five more years to get a green card.   And all that time I could not change employers or risk buying a home because if I disagreed with my employer, and quit or said no to a relocation, i would have only 30 days to pack up a husband, two kids and move home to Canada.  Anyone who has moved kids internationally will agree that it is not somehing you do with only 30 days notice if you can help it. And housing markets may take a downturn that you need to stick it through.

Yeah, and we could not file married jointly, so I paid more taxes than anyone else, too.. Fewer other deductions.And you don't qualify for social security or pension if you leave before 10 years of full contributions. Yesiree... Three years of soc security fully paid contributions (is that 8k per yr with employer amt?):and I won't see a dime in retirement.  Who in their right mind would pay that for that many years on a chance to win the green card lottery that you name will be processed before the cut off date?  One year they stopped processing in March after 10% of the applications were processed.

No wonder illegal immigration is so rampant, I can guarantee 99% would want a chance at legal migration. Taxes and all.  But the horrible legal method is not working.

So long story in summary. ...  Illegal immigration is bad.. Therefore  open your us borders and immigration to full time working, employer sponsored, taxes paying migrants.  And give them some chance of life security after three years.

+1,000

I have several friends who emigrated here and it took YEARS to gain any kind of legal security in their status and cost them between $10,000 and $15,000.   That's absurd and it hurts our economic development.

[TrulyStashin]

And consider the impact on economic growth that this kind of dilemma has:

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/dear_prudence/2014/07/dear_prudence_my_partner_immigrated_illegally_as_a_child_and_has_a_fake.html

[lisahi]

I don't see an issue from a financial perspective.  Republican hyperventilating on the issue helps protect incumbents from becoming the next Eric Cantor but drives Latinos to the Democratic party.  This is all political theater.  Don't be a chump and bite.

There is a financial impact, if not on a national scale, certainly on a more local scale. I live on the southern border of the U.S. One of the biggest problems this city faces is the absence of affordable legal labor. Basically, either you hire people who cannot legally work in the United States, or you pay a lot more than you would if you lived further North. As a Federal employee I cannot hire an illegal worker. I would lose my job (not to mention, it's illegal).

Granted, this is the biggest problem for those that employ domestic or manual laborers. For example, if you employ a maid to clean your house once a week. I don't. However, given that I live alone with a big yard in a city that reaches 100+ heat by 8am, I do hire people to mow my lawn once every two weeks (I tried doing it myself--it ate up the entirety of my weekends doing it alone and I nearly got heatstroke). I am paying more than my parents just 2.5 hours North just because of the illegal competition here that I can't hire.

Eventually, this problem will spread North (it already has to a degree). Undercutting non-skilled legal labor is a big deal, and it's a problem that is so prevalent in certain areas that it's hard to enforce the laws on a big scale.

Not to mention what it means for those people who are illegally working--they are getting paid far below a living wage. Far, far below.

[Huffy2k]

Ahhh, Koch brothers, the republican congress and Fox news.  Glad to see the liberals are passing blame, yet again, for another mess. ..

[Iron Mike Sharpe]

There's an immigration crisis in America? 

Granted I don't watch TV, but I don't think I have ever noticed any illegal immigrants in my life or had any impact my life whatsoever.

[grantmeaname]

Ahhh, Koch brothers, the republican congress and Fox news.  Glad to see the liberals are passing blame, yet again, for another mess. ..

Seagulls shit and leave.

Do you have any constructive comments where you actually disagree with a substantive point that another poster made (the good part of this pyramid), or do you just want to score a fast soundbite without engaging with the issues being discussed?

There's an immigration crisis in America? 

Granted I don't watch TV, but I don't think I have ever noticed any illegal immigrants in my life or had any impact my life whatsoever.

I think it's a crisis if you die in the desert or get separated from your child. I thought the thread premise was odd too, though. 'How in the world would illegal immigration affect my wallet?' I still don't have a good answer. I guess I'm happy that they keep the price of almonds down, on which I spend nearly $30 some years...

[gimp]

Financially, it probably makes my life slightly better, since I can pay less for... you know, goods and services. But I don't care. Come on, for all the vitriol in this thread, there have got to be more people who agree with me: "Don't care."

[thepokercab]

If the end goal is: accept every person in the world who can come to the USA and give them free medical services, job training and food stamps, get ready for 500 million Chinese and Indians. I live in China, People can afford plane tickets.

Not every person in the world wants to move or for that matter move to the U.S.  Gallup did some research on this a few years ago, and estimated that approx 600 million adults in the world wanted to move away from their home country, and about 150 million of those would choose the U.S. 

http://www.gallup.com/poll/153992/150-million-adults-worldwide-migrate.aspx

Not that we want cold hard data finding their way into these discussions.  zzzzzzz       

[Big Boots Buddha]

If the end goal is: accept every person in the world who can come to the USA and give them free medical services, job training and food stamps, get ready for 500 million Chinese and Indians. I live in China, People can afford plane tickets.

Not every person in the world wants to move or for that matter move to the U.S.  Gallup did some research on this a few years ago, and estimated that approx 600 million adults in the world wanted to move away from their home country, and about 150 million of those would choose the U.S. 

http://www.gallup.com/poll/153992/150-million-adults-worldwide-migrate.aspx

Not that we want cold hard data finding their way into these discussions.  zzzzzzz     

Travel around the world and ask people if they would move to the USA for the cost of a plane ticket. If they manage to walk, apparently that is OK too now. That Gallup poll is about as valuable as used toilet paper. It says 5-6% of the adults in the Phillipines would like to move to the USA. Go the to the Phillipines and conduct this survery yourself, I wouldnt be surprised if half the adult population would move to the USA.

It has almost half the world as less than 5% of that country would move. Go to China or India and conduct this survery in any major city, would be WAY higher than 5% would move to the USA.

More "news" for the sheep.

[grantmeaname]

That's some interesting statistical methodology you've got there. The interesting thing about people in China is that literally none of them are in the United States. Cheap talk to tourists and expats doesn't burden our social welfare system, people who actually live in the US do.

Among my Chinese friends, all but one of them currently reside in the US and literally none of them plan on spending their careers there (as opposed to a few years, then returning to China to be with family). So my anecdotal poll is that literally no Chinese people want to move to the US permanently. So?

[thepokercab]

If the end goal is: accept every person in the world who can come to the USA and give them free medical services, job training and food stamps, get ready for 500 million Chinese and Indians. I live in China, People can afford plane tickets.

Not every person in the world wants to move or for that matter move to the U.S.  Gallup did some research on this a few years ago, and estimated that approx 600 million adults in the world wanted to move away from their home country, and about 150 million of those would choose the U.S. 

http://www.gallup.com/poll/153992/150-million-adults-worldwide-migrate.aspx

Not that we want cold hard data finding their way into these discussions.  zzzzzzz     

Travel around the world and ask people if they would move to the USA for the cost of a plane ticket. If they manage to walk, apparently that is OK too now. That Gallup poll is about as valuable as used toilet paper. It says 5-6% of the adults in the Phillipines would like to move to the USA. Go the to the Phillipines and conduct this survery yourself, I wouldnt be surprised if half the adult population would move to the USA.

It has almost half the world as less than 5% of that country would move. Go to China or India and conduct this survery in any major city, would be WAY higher than 5% would move to the USA.

More "news" for the sheep.

So according to your own "data" half of the world's population just doesn't give two shits about the country that they live in, and for the price of a plane ticket, would up and leave.  With no thought of things like family, or their own attachment to their homes, or the homes of their ancestors, or their own nationalistic attachment to their country.  Its apparently a small miracle that these other countries actually have anyone left in them. 

But really, this is why its so hard to debate these issues. They've been so distorted and fucked up by the media and politicians that people can't discuss them rationally.  Person A maxes a claim then Person B shows some data from a somewhat credible source refuting that claim.  Person A responds that the data must be crap because it disagrees with their own pre-conceived beliefs.  Rinse and repeat.   

[matchewed]

It's amazing to see an issue ask about impacts and the only data brought up this entire time is a Gallup pole on where people want to emigrate to.

Some illegal immigrants are making my produce mighty cheap. Some are making my taxes a little bit more expensive. Some are making other peoples taxes a lot more expensive (maybe). Some are crowding schools, some are crowding detention centers. Some deserve a shot here and some don't. It's a complicated issue with no easy answer.

If we're talking about the crisis du jour (60k kids) then it's probably not affecting you financially at all. If you're talking about all of illegal immigration then you need to talk about some nuance. Try to set up programs for the people you want in. Try to set up deterrents for people you don't want here. Hell, maybe provide help to the countries they come from to establish their own stability so that people aren't fleeing (I'm quite aware we've probably miserably failed at that in the past).

I will also throw my hat in on the side of calling it a crisis regardless of what the media says it is shows your hand on this one. Perhaps it could have been generalized into "how do illegal immigrants affect you financially?"

[DoubleDown]

@Matchewed: Good post above. I agree with everything you said, except maybe to quibble about the 60k kids "not affecting us financially at all." The president has requested an additional $3.7 Billion just to deal with the kids crisis, above and beyond the regular budget to deal with illegal immigration. $3.7 Billion is a relative drop in the bucket of the overall federal budget, so you're probably right it won't really affect any of us very directly (maybe an additional $10 in taxes per taxpayer??? $100?? I pulled that out of my ass, I have no idea).

I can never help but wonder though how that money could be used to benefit poor citizens/residents that are here legally. We've got millions of American kids literally starving, homeless, or going without health care, and to me every dollar diverted to care for an illegal immigrant is a dollar that's not going to them. I don't mean we can turn a blind eye to these kids coming across the border but, like you said, it's something we've got to deal with in both a humanitarian way, and a way that sets up major deterrents to other people trying to come here illegally.

@Everyone Else: There are no two ways about it -- 99.9999% of the people coming here illegally are not self-supporting, certainly not at the outset. They have no jobs, no money, relatively no marketable skills beyond unskilled/cheap labor -- they come with nothing. They require free/subsidized housing, food, clothing, education, health care, and everything else a human being needs. They are a significant financial drain on certain areas of the country (mine is one). I have sympathy for their plights, but we should not fool ourselves to think there's no cost to feeding/housing/schooling millions of illegal border crossers via taxpayers and charitable outlets.

[matchewed]

@DoubleDown: I can't disagree with you there. I'd say $10 or even $100 is not a financial affect for most people over the course of a year but /shrug. :)

I'd argue that the BIG ISSUE of immigration in this country is a much more expensive issue than we're willing to admit. To take a broad multi-pronged approach to a complex situation requires a great deal of money. I'm not saying we should or should not do it. We do have to realistically approach these things.

At painting 99.999999% of them as unskilled naked unwashed masses... eh I'm not as comfortable doing so (source). 25% of them have at least some college education, about half of them come over with visas, more than half are Mexican (I'm guessing you're affected by that demographic of them), and given that 33% of illegal immigrants work in service industry we can at least start looking at legislation which would encourage some and discourage others. If you're interested in that sort of solution then you need to be willing to pony up some cash (taxes).

Furthermore political squabbles making any attempt to do anything about the hurdles in the way, just leave people who are affected by this in the lurch. Even attempts to talk about possible legislation which could improve the situation stalls in favor of pandering to constituents in lieu of working to solve issues.

[DoubleDown]

^^^ Agreed.

Also, every time I'm tempted to get upset about the expense of any kind of social welfare program, or the $3.7 billion to deal with the present immigration situation, I try to remind myself how much we spend on the military/industrial complex. IIRC, we were spending $1 billion PER DAY (paid to Haliburton/KBR) providing bottled water to our troops in Afghanistan and Iraq during the height of those wars. Or maybe that was the cost of all logistics per day, but it doesn't matter. Either way, it's an outrageous amount of money just to support some wars (that many would find dubious in the first place) that could accomplish so much more at home: Food, housing, welfare, job training, health care, transportation, infrastructure, art, science, research, border protection, etc... You could do all those at a fraction of the military budget.

[Paul der Krake]

@Everyone Else: There are no two ways about it -- 99.9999% of the people coming here illegally are not self-supporting, certainly not at the outset. They have no jobs, no money, relatively no marketable skills beyond unskilled/cheap labor -- they come with nothing. They require free/subsidized housing, food, clothing, education, health care, and everything else a human being needs. They are a significant financial drain on certain areas of the country (mine is one). I have sympathy for their plights, but we should not fool ourselves to think there's no cost to feeding/housing/schooling millions of illegal border crossers via taxpayers and charitable outlets.

Since 1996, even legal immigrants are not eligible for the vast majority of federal assistance benefits they pay for through their taxes (yours truly included). If you don't believe me, try showing up to your local office, and take a look at the paperwork required to get on the federal program of your choice. They might get some charitable assistance from soup kitchens and churches, but not much from the government.

[DoubleDown]

Since 1996, even legal immigrants are not eligible for the vast majority of federal assistance benefits they pay for through their taxes (yours truly included). If you don't believe me, try showing up to your local office, and take a look at the paperwork required to get on the federal program of your choice. They might get some charitable assistance from soup kitchens and churches, but not much from the government.

True for most direct federal assistance, but states and municipalities certainly offer substantial assistance in many cases. And states receive money in block grants from the feds, to be used how they see fit. My county, for example, pays for housing for any needy person, legal residency is not a factor. And, of course, it's not terribly difficult to get falsified documentation (i.e., fake social security cards, green cards, etc.) for federal assistance. Many institutions require no documentation and have no exclusions for illegal/undocumented residents. My county's schools are one example -- anyone is let in, all you need is a piece of mail at a local address. That costs money, several thousand dollars per student. Universities also offer admission, and even grant in-state tuition to illegal residents. That costs money, and it takes a spot from a legal resident. If an illegal alien gets sick or injured, they go to the ER that treats them without payment and passes the costs on to the rest of us. I could go on, but that's the idea.

[thepokercab]

Since 1996, even legal immigrants are not eligible for the vast majority of federal assistance benefits they pay for through their taxes (yours truly included). If you don't believe me, try showing up to your local office, and take a look at the paperwork required to get on the federal program of your choice. They might get some charitable assistance from soup kitchens and churches, but not much from the government.

True for most direct federal assistance, but states and municipalities certainly offer substantial assistance in many cases. And states receive money in block grants from the feds, to be used how they see fit. My county, for example, pays for housing for any needy person, legal residency is not a factor. And, of course, it's not terribly difficult to get falsified documentation (i.e., fake social security cards, green cards, etc.) for federal assistance. Many institutions require no documentation and have no exclusions for illegal/undocumented residents. My county's schools are one example -- anyone is let in, all you need is a piece of mail at a local address. That costs money, several thousand dollars per student. Universities also offer admission, and even grant in-state tuition to illegal residents. That costs money, and it takes a spot from a legal resident. If an illegal alien gets sick or injured, they go to the ER that treats them without payment and passes the costs on to the rest of us. I could go on, but that's the idea.

This is true, but illegal immigrants also pay taxes, especially towards states and municipalities, predominately in the form of sales and excise taxes.  This study, estimated that in 2010 illegal immigrants paid upwards of $10 billion in taxes to states and municipalities. 

So, not quite a free ride.   

This is to say nothing of the economic impact that illegal labor on the U.S. economy.  In Texas alone, a study was done estimating that if all immigrants we're kicked out, the state would lose over $69 billion in economic activity and over 400,000 jobs. 

At the Federal level, the Social Security administration factors in illegal immigration payments into the system as part of their projections.  The chief actuary has said that undocumented workers have contributed close to $300 billion dollars to Social Security, or 10% of the total trust fund

All of this is to say that the masses who immigrate here don't tend to just find the nearest couch and start suckling at the government teet.  The economic output that is generated plus the taxes they pay means that they are far from a huge drag on the overall economy.   However, at the individual level, there are clearly losers, which tend to be low income, low skill Americans.  It is certainly a conundrum, and their are no clear answers.  However, it seems to me that there is a large group of people here, who probably aren't going anywhere, so I don't see what sense it is to have them living in the shadows for fear of deportation.  Document them and tax them. 

[Threshkin]

As a feared many of the posters to this thread have elected to co-mingle legal and illegal immigration into a single issue when it is really two very different things.

As a first generation American I am extremely supportive of legal immigration.  Our country was built by immigrants from all parts of the world, all levels of status, and all ranges of skills.  It is this mix of peoples that made this country great.  I completely support measures that make legal immigration and citizenship easier and faster.

On the other hand I do not support illegal immigration.  Illegal immigration creates a subclass of people who are easily exploited or abused.  It also encourages an anti-immigrant mind set that does not differentiate between legal or illegal immigrants.  This hurts the very core of our cultural strength.

Do some illegal immigrants benefit our society?  Of course!  Every person can be a benefit or a detriment to society, it does not matter if they are an illegal immigrant, a legal immigrant, or a natural born citizen. 

But does this mean that we should embrace illegal immigration?  No!  We should be like almost every other developed country in the world and enforce our immigration laws, block and deport illegal immigrants and encourage legal immigration.

[YK-Phil]

'Illegal aliens have always been a problem in the United States. Ask any Indian.'
Robert Orben —

[CowboyAndIndian]

We are all immigrants. Some came to America earlier than others.

The cartoon is from The New Yorker  of April 25th.

[freki]

As a feared many of the posters to this thread have elected to co-mingle legal and illegal immigration into a single issue when it is really two very different things.

As a first generation American I am extremely supportive of legal immigration.  Our country was built by immigrants from all parts of the world, all levels of status, and all ranges of skills.  It is this mix of peoples that made this country great.  I completely support measures that make legal immigration and citizenship easier and faster.

On the other hand I do not support illegal immigration.  Illegal immigration creates a subclass of people who are easily exploited or abused.  It also encourages an anti-immigrant mind set that does not differentiate between legal or illegal immigrants.  This hurts the very core of our cultural strength.

Do some illegal immigrants benefit our society?  Of course!  Every person can be a benefit or a detriment to society, it does not matter if they are an illegal immigrant, a legal immigrant, or a natural born citizen. 

But does this mean that we should embrace illegal immigration?  No!  We should be like almost every other developed country in the world and enforce our immigration laws, block and deport illegal immigrants and encourage legal immigration.

Well said!!

[davisgang90]

^^^ Agreed.

Also, every time I'm tempted to get upset about the expense of any kind of social welfare program, or the $3.7 billion to deal with the present immigration situation, I try to remind myself how much we spend on the military/industrial complex. IIRC, we were spending $1 billion PER DAY (paid to Haliburton/KBR) providing bottled water to our troops in Afghanistan and Iraq during the height of those wars. Or maybe that was the cost of all logistics per day, but it doesn't matter. Either way, it's an outrageous amount of money just to support some wars (that many would find dubious in the first place) that could accomplish so much more at home: Food, housing, welfare, job training, health care, transportation, infrastructure, art, science, research, border protection, etc... You could do all those at a fraction of the military budget.

I'd like to see the source for even one day we paid $1B for bottled water for the troops.  I'll wait.

[grantmeaname]

Methinks DD has millions and billions mixed up, given that $365B is ten times Halliburton's total annual revenue.

[DoubleDown]

Also, every time I'm tempted to get upset about the expense of any kind of social welfare program, or the $3.7 billion to deal with the present immigration situation, I try to remind myself how much we spend on the military/industrial complex. IIRC, we were spending $1 billion PER DAY (paid to Haliburton/KBR) providing bottled water to our troops in Afghanistan and Iraq during the height of those wars. Or maybe that was the cost of all logistics per day, but it doesn't matter. Either way, it's an outrageous amount of money just to support some wars (that many would find dubious in the first place) that could accomplish so much more at home: Food, housing, welfare, job training, health care, transportation, infrastructure, art, science, research, border protection, etc... You could do all those at a fraction of the military budget.

I'd like to see the source for even one day we paid $1B for bottled water for the troops.  I'll wait.

That figure was apparently for all logistics, and I was pretty spot on. I think I made clear above I did not remember if the figure I was recalling was just for bottled water, or for all logistics (see bolded part above).

Even in constant 2011 dollars, total war spending has still been considerably higher under Obama in FY2009 ($159.21 billion) and FY2010 ($170.49 billion)...

As economist Robert Higgs has argued, the official defense budget does not account for all of U.S. spending on defense... Higgs estimates the actual cost of national defense for FY2009 to be over a trillion dollars.

Source: http://www.independent.org/pdf/policy_reports/2011-05-31-what_price_war.pdf

... the rough formula used by the White House, of about $1 million per soldier a year, appears almost constant.

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/15/us/politics/15cost.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

How many soldiers were deployed during the height of both wars -- 150,000 -200,000?

As it turns out, the cost for bottled water alone was indeed high, though closer to $1 million/day than $1 billion/day as Grant points out. According to the National Defense University/Joint Advanced Warfighting School," procurement alone of bottled water "reached astronomical proportions":

In fiscal year (FY) 2005, while conducting military operations as part of Operation Enduring Freedom (OEF) in Afghanistan, projections by the U.S. Army for the amount spent on bottled water was $190 million dollars. Procurement and supply of bottled water has reached astronomical proportions.

Source: http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a545433.pdf

That was the cost just for bottled water in Afghanistan -- It's safe to assume you could easily double that figure or more to account for Iraq as well. However, I think those costs are just procurement, and did not include transportation. Every gallon of fuel cost $400 due to the high costs of transportation, and it's safe to assume that it is as expensive to transport water as gasoline. It's likely that when including transportation costs, you get a much more ridiculous figure.

My larger point was that no matter the actual costs, the amount spent on war and defense completely dwarfs the taxes we spend on welfare or immigration. I think it makes sense not to get too upset about tax dollars that are spent feeding and providing water and diapers to illegal immigrant children, when the total annual budget for those things is probably comparable to the amount spent in one hour in Iraq/Afghanistan.

[Gin1984]

Unfortunately, as a mustachian, this approach does not mathematically work. The services you and I in theory benefit from are supplied by our contributions. Now you find more and more you and your family are in line behind people that haven't put into the offering plate but are happily taking from it.

It's a slippery slope and no easy answer of where to draw the line. Our current laws not being enforced is probably the bigger crisis as those laws set a foundation around which the math to support measure increases in immigration are based.

If one thinks our laws are tough , you should read up on the laws of immigrating to most any country south of our border

I'm left wondering why Facebook, Microsoft and others Of the billionaires boys club are pushing this so hard. The people now pouring in at a 10x rate to the last, illegally, are not computer programmers.

So their argument, at least in the context of this crisis, is inconsistent at best.

I don't think immigration is a crisis at all. Why should I be entitled to live and work in the US just because I happened to be born on the right side of the border, while other people whose hopes and dreams are just as valid as mine shouldn't have that chance? It's absurd. Europe has moved in a nice direction by more or less abolishing immigration controls within their group of countries. I look forward to a day when anyone can move to any country at any time for any reason, without being forced to justify their presence or wait in a decades-long line for a legal spot to open up.

The real crisis is how our current immigration system forces millions of people to live in secrecy and fear of deportation. Employers can exploit undocumented immigrants with impunity, and their children often spend years here only to be later sent back to a country they don't remember. People like to say "why don't these people just immigrate legally?" Don't you think they would if that was a valid option for them? The truth is that our immigration system is based on a strict quota system. Close family members of existing citizens and legal immigrants get priority; everyone else has to wait in line for decades unless they have exceptional technical skills or qualify under other categories that your average uneducated, low-skilled immigrant simply can't meet.

If I were given power to come up with an immigration system from scratch, it would be pretty simple. Everyone who wants to move here would be able to, provided they pass a criminal background check. New immigrants are immediately allowed to work, immediately required to pay taxes on their earnings, and immediately eligible to send their kids to public schools. For some period of time (five years?) the immigrants would be required to provide their own financial support. No food stamps, government subsidized housing, or certain other programs of that nature. After that, they would be eligible to become naturalized citizens with all the rights and responsibilities that entails.

Many illegal immigrants work, pay taxes and FICA and get nothing back from it (because they are using someone else's numbers).  I am from California and honestly our state would not function, fiscally, without those immigrants.  Yes, they end up paying in aid during the non-planting and picking seasons but that could be fixed easily by giving visas to those migrant workers, and coming down hard of the employers who hire outside of the that pool.

[Ambition89]

Unfortunately, as a mustachian, this approach does not mathematically work. The services you and I in theory benefit from are supplied by our contributions. Now you find more and more you and your family are in line behind people that haven't put into the offering plate but are happily taking from it.

It's a slippery slope and no easy answer of where to draw the line. Our current laws not being enforced is probably the bigger crisis as those laws set a foundation around which the math to support measure increases in immigration are based.

If one thinks our laws are tough , you should read up on the laws of immigrating to most any country south of our border

I'm left wondering why Facebook, Microsoft and others Of the billionaires boys club are pushing this so hard. The people now pouring in at a 10x rate to the last, illegally, are not computer programmers.

So their argument, at least in the context of this crisis, is inconsistent at best.

I don't think immigration is a crisis at all. Why should I be entitled to live and work in the US just because I happened to be born on the right side of the border, while other people whose hopes and dreams are just as valid as mine shouldn't have that chance? It's absurd. Europe has moved in a nice direction by more or less abolishing immigration controls within their group of countries. I look forward to a day when anyone can move to any country at any time for any reason, without being forced to justify their presence or wait in a decades-long line for a legal spot to open up.

The real crisis is how our current immigration system forces millions of people to live in secrecy and fear of deportation. Employers can exploit undocumented immigrants with impunity, and their children often spend years here only to be later sent back to a country they don't remember. People like to say "why don't these people just immigrate legally?" Don't you think they would if that was a valid option for them? The truth is that our immigration system is based on a strict quota system. Close family members of existing citizens and legal immigrants get priority; everyone else has to wait in line for decades unless they have exceptional technical skills or qualify under other categories that your average uneducated, low-skilled immigrant simply can't meet.

If I were given power to come up with an immigration system from scratch, it would be pretty simple. Everyone who wants to move here would be able to, provided they pass a criminal background check. New immigrants are immediately allowed to work, immediately required to pay taxes on their earnings, and immediately eligible to send their kids to public schools. For some period of time (five years?) the immigrants would be required to provide their own financial support. No food stamps, government subsidized housing, or certain other programs of that nature. After that, they would be eligible to become naturalized citizens with all the rights and responsibilities that entails.

Many illegal immigrants work, pay taxes and FICA and get nothing back from it (because they are using someone else's numbers).  I am from California and honestly our state would not function, fiscally, without those immigrants.  Yes, they end up paying in aid during the non-planting and picking seasons but that could be fixed easily by giving visas to those migrant workers, and coming down hard of the employers who hire outside of the that pool.

So you are saying California is functioning now? Why is there a petition to break the state up into six different states?
http://time.com/2983496/california-six-state-proposal-vote/

The illegal immigrants leeching off the taxpayer I'm sure has something to do with it!

[matchewed]

Unfortunately, as a mustachian, this approach does not mathematically work. The services you and I in theory benefit from are supplied by our contributions. Now you find more and more you and your family are in line behind people that haven't put into the offering plate but are happily taking from it.

It's a slippery slope and no easy answer of where to draw the line. Our current laws not being enforced is probably the bigger crisis as those laws set a foundation around which the math to support measure increases in immigration are based.

If one thinks our laws are tough , you should read up on the laws of immigrating to most any country south of our border

I'm left wondering why Facebook, Microsoft and others Of the billionaires boys club are pushing this so hard. The people now pouring in at a 10x rate to the last, illegally, are not computer programmers.

So their argument, at least in the context of this crisis, is inconsistent at best.

I don't think immigration is a crisis at all. Why should I be entitled to live and work in the US just because I happened to be born on the right side of the border, while other people whose hopes and dreams are just as valid as mine shouldn't have that chance? It's absurd. Europe has moved in a nice direction by more or less abolishing immigration controls within their group of countries. I look forward to a day when anyone can move to any country at any time for any reason, without being forced to justify their presence or wait in a decades-long line for a legal spot to open up.

The real crisis is how our current immigration system forces millions of people to live in secrecy and fear of deportation. Employers can exploit undocumented immigrants with impunity, and their children often spend years here only to be later sent back to a country they don't remember. People like to say "why don't these people just immigrate legally?" Don't you think they would if that was a valid option for them? The truth is that our immigration system is based on a strict quota system. Close family members of existing citizens and legal immigrants get priority; everyone else has to wait in line for decades unless they have exceptional technical skills or qualify under other categories that your average uneducated, low-skilled immigrant simply can't meet.

If I were given power to come up with an immigration system from scratch, it would be pretty simple. Everyone who wants to move here would be able to, provided they pass a criminal background check. New immigrants are immediately allowed to work, immediately required to pay taxes on their earnings, and immediately eligible to send their kids to public schools. For some period of time (five years?) the immigrants would be required to provide their own financial support. No food stamps, government subsidized housing, or certain other programs of that nature. After that, they would be eligible to become naturalized citizens with all the rights and responsibilities that entails.

Many illegal immigrants work, pay taxes and FICA and get nothing back from it (because they are using someone else's numbers).  I am from California and honestly our state would not function, fiscally, without those immigrants.  Yes, they end up paying in aid during the non-planting and picking seasons but that could be fixed easily by giving visas to those migrant workers, and coming down hard of the employers who hire outside of the that pool.

So you are saying California is functioning now? Why is there a petition to break the state up into six different states?
http://time.com/2983496/california-six-state-proposal-vote/

The illegal immigrants leeching off the taxpayer I'm sure has something to do with it!

/Reads article.

Hrm, nothing to do with immigration or the fiscal functionality of California. Let's take a look-see at this for a second. California seems to be doing fine.

So what you're proposing right now, that California has a petition because of illegal immigrants and is non-functional, is supported by what exactly? I'm pretty sure it's fantasy. Tell me it's fantasy. :)

[davisgang90]

Methinks DD has millions and billions mixed up, given that $365B is ten times Halliburton's total annual revenue.

Yeah, as I've said Millions of times, I love me some hyperbole.  We spent plenty of money on the war efforts without ridiculously inflating the numbers.

[DollarBill]

I say get rid of the borders and become equal with Canada and Mexico. I would love to live in Mexico; maybe Canada but it seems too cold.

I also say change the tax code to have only a sales tax. That way everyone in the US will pay taxes...even the illegals. Case closed!

[CWAL]

Many illegal immigrants work, pay taxes and FICA and get nothing back from it (because they are using someone else's numbers). 

Does anyone know what exactly happens if someone else is using you SSN paying taxes?

Do people every get a call from the IRS "Hey, we thought it was odd that you're making 70k in Florida at the same time as having a job making 12k in Texas.."?

Are your lifetime SSI earning based on the sum, so you get extra when you go to collect SS?

[Paul der Krake]

Does anyone know what exactly happens if someone else is using you SSN paying taxes?

Do people every get a call from the IRS "Hey, we thought it was odd that you're making 70k in Florida at the same time as having a job making 12k in Texas.."?

SSNs would get recycled from either deceased people or children, because the system was never designed with security in mind. The word on the street is that it has become significantly harder to get away with it nowadays because of electronic records and cross-databases checks such as e-verify.

[DoubleDown]

Methinks DD has millions and billions mixed up, given that $365B is ten times Halliburton's total annual revenue.

Yeah, as I've said Millions of times, I love me some hyperbole.  We spent plenty of money on the war efforts without ridiculously inflating the numbers.

Hyperbole? Ridiculously inflating? Did you even bother to read my lengthy response where I provided the citations you requested showing that $365 billion annually is, in fact, a pretty close estimate of the cost of the wars?

[Daisy]

On the other hand I do not support illegal immigration.  Illegal immigration creates a subclass of people who are easily exploited or abused.  It also encourages an anti-immigrant mind set that does not differentiate between legal or illegal immigrants.  This hurts the very core of our cultural strength.

Yes! I am also a first-generation American whose family had an easy time immigrating legally to the US.

I find it somewhat criminal that we tolerate this "illegal" influx of people into our country, have a lax attitude about it, then let them stay in the country but in the shadows and at the whim of their employers. These people are not going to go to the authorities to report an employer that is abusing them, bad working conditions, or any other thing that could affect their personal safety or protect their rights as humans (think smuggling and sex trafficking being facilited by this illegal situation).

This affects every other citizen in the US in that now employers would prefer to hire these "illegal" people to do their work so that they can increase their profits. In addition to the moral implications of that, now a regular citizen or legal immigrant is priced out of that job market.

I only put "illegal" in quotes because I don't think our country should even call these people illegal if we are tacitly accepting them in our society, benefitting from lower food, home care, nanny care costs, etc. We are pretty much letting them come in, and then simultaneously yelling at them for being here. Either you stop them from coming here illegally (stronger border, easier immigration laws, or a combination) or accept that they are here and make their lives easier by legalizing their status.

I am for making it easier for them to actually come into our country legally, so don't misunderstand where my anger is at - it is at our hypocrisy on this matter.

[davisgang90]

Methinks DD has millions and billions mixed up, given that $365B is ten times Halliburton's total annual revenue.

Yeah, as I've said Millions of times, I love me some hyperbole.  We spent plenty of money on the war efforts without ridiculously inflating the numbers.

Hyperbole? Ridiculously inflating? Did you even bother to read my lengthy response where I provided the citations you requested showing that $365 billion annually is, in fact, a pretty close estimate of the cost of the wars?

I did, but I was referring to your initial offering that we were spending $1,000,000,000 per day on water bottles.  That is either a big mistake or inflating hyperbole.   I'm still waiting on the citations for $1B per day for aqua fina.  You could have just acknowledged your mistake but you decided to "double down".

[DoubleDown]

I did, but I was referring to your initial offering that we were spending $1,000,000,000 per day on water bottles.  That is either a big mistake or inflating hyperbole.   I'm still waiting on the citations for $1B per day for aqua fina.  You could have just acknowledged your mistake but you decided to "double down".

I'll confess to writing a lot, so perhaps you missed it when I said in the original post:

IIRC, we were spending $1 billion PER DAY (paid to Haliburton/KBR) providing bottled water to our troops in Afghanistan and Iraq during the height of those wars. Or maybe that was the cost of all logistics per day...

That is, I said up front I wasn't sure if that was the cost of water, or everything. Then when you rightfully questioned that bottled water cost that much, I said again:

That figure was apparently for all logistics, and I was pretty spot on. I think I made clear above I did not remember if the figure I was recalling was just for bottled water, or for all logistics (see bolded part above). Then I repeated again, in bold, that I had said Or maybe that was the cost of all logistics per day...

Then I provided the data for the total cost being $1 Billion per day -- not just for water. Now you're telling me I'm doubling down on the water claim! So again, you are correct, bottled water did not cost $1 Billion per day. The total cost of the war was approximately $1 Billion per day. I am not doubling down, I do not know how to say any clearer that of the two options I recalled (and originally acknowledged my uncertainty), the correct recollection was for the total cost of the wars, not just water.

Peace!

[davisgang90]

I did, but I was referring to your initial offering that we were spending $1,000,000,000 per day on water bottles.  That is either a big mistake or inflating hyperbole.   I'm still waiting on the citations for $1B per day for aqua fina.  You could have just acknowledged your mistake but you decided to "double down".

I'll confess to writing a lot, so perhaps you missed it when I said in the original post:

IIRC, we were spending $1 billion PER DAY (paid to Haliburton/KBR) providing bottled water to our troops in Afghanistan and Iraq during the height of those wars. Or maybe that was the cost of all logistics per day...

That is, I said up front I wasn't sure if that was the cost of water, or everything. Then when you rightfully questioned that bottled water cost that much, I said again:

That figure was apparently for all logistics, and I was pretty spot on. I think I made clear above I did not remember if the figure I was recalling was just for bottled water, or for all logistics (see bolded part above). Then I repeated again, in bold, that I had said Or maybe that was the cost of all logistics per day...

Then I provided the data for the total cost being $1 Billion per day -- not just for water. Now you're telling me I'm doubling down on the water claim! So again, you are correct, bottled water did not cost $1 Billion per day. The total cost of the war was approximately $1 Billion per day. I am not doubling down, I do not know how to say any clearer that of the two options I recalled (and originally acknowledged my uncertainty), the correct recollection was for the total cost of the wars, not just water.

Peace!

Much better that time!  Well done!

[Big Boots Buddha]

If the end goal is: accept every person in the world who can come to the USA and give them free medical services, job training and food stamps, get ready for 500 million Chinese and Indians. I live in China, People can afford plane tickets.

Not every person in the world wants to move or for that matter move to the U.S.  Gallup did some research on this a few years ago, and estimated that approx 600 million adults in the world wanted to move away from their home country, and about 150 million of those would choose the U.S. 

http://www.gallup.com/poll/153992/150-million-adults-worldwide-migrate.aspx

Not that we want cold hard data finding their way into these discussions.  zzzzzzz     

Travel around the world and ask people if they would move to the USA for the cost of a plane ticket. If they manage to walk, apparently that is OK too now. That Gallup poll is about as valuable as used toilet paper. It says 5-6% of the adults in the Phillipines would like to move to the USA. Go the to the Phillipines and conduct this survery yourself, I wouldnt be surprised if half the adult population would move to the USA.

It has almost half the world as less than 5% of that country would move. Go to China or India and conduct this survery in any major city, would be WAY higher than 5% would move to the USA.

More "news" for the sheep.

So according to your own "data" half of the world's population just doesn't give two shits about the country that they live in, and for the price of a plane ticket, would up and leave.  With no thought of things like family, or their own attachment to their homes, or the homes of their ancestors, or their own nationalistic attachment to their country.  Its apparently a small miracle that these other countries actually have anyone left in them. 

Why would anyone leave their family? They get to bring them too! And once they become citizens and can apply for all their cousins to come, they didnt "leave" anything behind.

More to the point: that gallup poll stated 150 million ADULTS from developing countries would come. They are all DINK or single? WTF? If 5% of the couples from the Phillipines want to come and each family has 3-5 children, those numbers go up a little bit, maybe.

I think the greater problem with discussions like this: You have no idea how the world works. Go to any developing country in the world and put up a sign, "For 1,000$ you can come to the USA." It would be a stampede. If you don't believe that I suggest you travel a little more.

[Big Boots Buddha]

Immigration to permanent status should be much easier than it is.  Anyone who can get through the very tough immigration interviews and also get an employment offer and stay employed for three years, should get resident card ( with subject conditions) and be responsible to contribute fully.

US immigration truly sucks.  The quotas, cut offs in processing etc are driving too many underground where they don't want to be, subject ton abuse in pay if nothing else,, and they can't pay taxes or try to get ahead.

I left the usa when, despite 3 years of full time employment as a fully qualified engineer on a working visa, with my 10 yr employer, found out it would be five more years to get a green card.   And all that time I could not change employers or risk buying a home because if I disagreed with my employer, and quit or said no to a relocation, i would have only 30 days to pack up a husband, two kids and move home to Canada.  Anyone who has moved kids internationally will agree that it is not somehing you do with only 30 days notice if you can help it. And housing markets may take a downturn that you need to stick it through.

Yeah, and we could not file married jointly, so I paid more taxes than anyone else, too.. Fewer other deductions.And you don't qualify for social security or pension if you leave before 10 years of full contributions. Yesiree... Three years of soc security fully paid contributions (is that 8k per yr with employer amt?):and I won't see a dime in retirement.  Who in their right mind would pay that for that many years on a chance to win the green card lottery that you name will be processed before the cut off date?  One year they stopped processing in March after 10% of the applications were processed.

No wonder illegal immigration is so rampant, I can guarantee 99% would want a chance at legal migration. Taxes and all.  But the horrible legal method is not working.

So long story in summary. ...  Illegal immigration is bad.. Therefore  open your us borders and immigration to full time working, employer sponsored, taxes paying migrants.  And give them some chance of life security after three years.

+1,000

I have several friends who emigrated here and it took YEARS to gain any kind of legal security in their status and cost them between $10,000 and $15,000.   That's absurd and it hurts our economic development.

Agree 10 fold. My best friend in China went to U of Michigan and got a phd in Material Science and now works in Boston. He's so depressed for how long it will take him to get a green card.

Turns out he should just say he's a political refugee from Central America.

[allergic2average]

Put politics aside. Put compassion aside. What are your financial thoughts on it and how it may impact you and your family?

Is it no big deal?  How much would be too much?  Do we need more of it?

I'd like to hear the opinions of this community that obviously spends a fair amount of time thinking about profits and losses an log term investments and the impact of costs and inflation.

Seeing as how my parents came here illegally and I have double nationality, we need more of it so my other family members can come here as well and enjoy the opportunities given to lazy Americans :) Hispanics are the largest minority in the US so eventually todos vamos a hablar Español. Plus it would mean no longer having to use Western Union every month.

[MoneyCat]

     I understand why people from Mexico and Central America want to immigrate to the USA, because their prospects are pretty bleak back home compared to how they can live in the USA (even our poverty is nowhere near as bad as what they face back home).  However, all the illegal immigration is leading to some really bad gun-running, drug dealing, and other criminal activity that is making things a lot less safe. 
     This is a really difficult situation, because some illegal immigrants have American-born children, which means that their children are American citizens under the Constitution who have all the rights of any other citizens.  Are we going to break up families to deal with this problem or are we going to give these split citizenship families the opportunity to all become citizens?
     Financially, I worry about the added cost of taking care of all these illegal immigrants.  For example, illegals cannot legally purchase health insurance under the ACA, so they all go to Emergency Rooms for their treatment and the cost gets passed on to everyone here legally who have insurance.  My state is trying to pass a law providing financial aid for college educations for illegal immigrants, which means my tax money could go to giving foreigners an education.  But what is the alternative?  To have roving gangs of sick, uneducated people everywhere who end up turning to crime and making neighborhoods more unsafe?
      I honestly don't know what to do about this issue.

[Daisy]

     Financially, I worry about the added cost of taking care of all these illegal immigrants.  For example, illegals cannot legally purchase health insurance under the ACA, so they all go to Emergency Rooms for their treatment and the cost gets passed on to everyone here legally who have insurance.  My state is trying to pass a law providing financial aid for college educations for illegal immigrants, which means my tax money could go to giving foreigners an education.  But what is the alternative?  To have roving gangs of sick, uneducated people everywhere who end up turning to crime and making neighborhoods more unsafe?

Argh...see this is what I am talking about. Instead of passing a law to provide financial aid for illegal immigrants...uh...why not just give them legal status? I mean, with these laws, we are tacitly accepting that these people are in our society. The dangers of having them lurk in the background with minimal rights is unconscionable. If you are at the point where someone has to fill out an application for financial aid for college and tick off the "illegal" box, then how can you really call them "illegal".

If you really feel they are illegal then you have to make the hard decision to deport them (not that I am suggesting that). Just don't have this double standard and accepting attitude and then call them "illegal", stigmatize them, and force them into the shadows of society.

[davisgang90]

Immigration to permanent status should be much easier than it is.  Anyone who can get through the very tough immigration interviews and also get an employment offer and stay employed for three years, should get resident card ( with subject conditions) and be responsible to contribute fully.

US immigration truly sucks.  The quotas, cut offs in processing etc are driving too many underground where they don't want to be, subject ton abuse in pay if nothing else,, and they can't pay taxes or try to get ahead.

I left the usa when, despite 3 years of full time employment as a fully qualified engineer on a working visa, with my 10 yr employer, found out it would be five more years to get a green card.   And all that time I could not change employers or risk buying a home because if I disagreed with my employer, and quit or said no to a relocation, i would have only 30 days to pack up a husband, two kids and move home to Canada.  Anyone who has moved kids internationally will agree that it is not somehing you do with only 30 days notice if you can help it. And housing markets may take a downturn that you need to stick it through.

Yeah, and we could not file married jointly, so I paid more taxes than anyone else, too.. Fewer other deductions.And you don't qualify for social security or pension if you leave before 10 years of full contributions. Yesiree... Three years of soc security fully paid contributions (is that 8k per yr with employer amt?):and I won't see a dime in retirement.  Who in their right mind would pay that for that many years on a chance to win the green card lottery that you name will be processed before the cut off date?  One year they stopped processing in March after 10% of the applications were processed.

No wonder illegal immigration is so rampant, I can guarantee 99% would want a chance at legal migration. Taxes and all.  But the horrible legal method is not working.

So long story in summary. ...  Illegal immigration is bad.. Therefore  open your us borders and immigration to full time working, employer sponsored, taxes paying migrants.  And give them some chance of life security after three years.

+1,000

I have several friends who emigrated here and it took YEARS to gain any kind of legal security in their status and cost them between $10,000 and $15,000.   That's absurd and it hurts our economic development.

Agree 10 fold. My best friend in China went to U of Michigan and got a phd in Material Science and now works in Boston. He's so depressed for how long it will take him to get a green card.

Turns out he should just say he's a political refugee from Central America.

My opinion is that any advanced STEM degree should come with a green card.

[YK-Phil]

Put politics aside. Put compassion aside. What are your financial thoughts on it and how it may impact you and your family?

Is it no big deal?  How much would be too much?  Do we need more of it?

I'd like to hear the opinions of this community that obviously spends a fair amount of time thinking about profits and losses an log term investments and the impact of costs and inflation.

Seeing as how my parents came here illegally and I have double nationality, we need more of it so my other family members can come here as well and enjoy the opportunities given to lazy Americans :) Hispanics are the largest minority in the US so eventually todos vamos a hablar Español. Plus it would mean no longer having to use Western Union every month.

I speak Català so I should start brushing up on my Castellano. La Reconquista is coming. Slowly but surely :D

[infogoon]

My opinion is that any advanced STEM degree should come with a green card.

I couldn't agree more. Especially when it comes to degrees issued from a public university.

How stupid is it that we spend tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars subsidizing someone's education, and then make it so difficult for them to stay here and put those skills to work in our economy?

[allergic2average]

Put politics aside. Put compassion aside. What are your financial thoughts on it and how it may impact you and your family?

Is it no big deal?  How much would be too much?  Do we need more of it?

I'd like to hear the opinions of this community that obviously spends a fair amount of time thinking about profits and losses an log term investments and the impact of costs and inflation.

Seeing as how my parents came here illegally and I have double nationality, we need more of it so my other family members can come here as well and enjoy the opportunities given to lazy Americans :) Hispanics are the largest minority in the US so eventually todos vamos a hablar Español. Plus it would mean no longer having to use Western Union every month.

I speak Català so I should start brushing up on my Castellano. La Reconquista is coming. Slowly but surely :D

Lol true indeed sir. If anything this will improve the intelligence level of Americans since speaking more than one language develops the brain to a higher degree. I never understand why people bring up illegal immigration, nothing will ever stop it. We'll keep coming over as long as there is good money to be made. We don't care about borders or laws :)