Author Topic: This sums up the difference between Mustachians and Bogleheads pretty well ...  (Read 41893 times)

MrMoneySaver

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 201
There is a pretty good recent thread at Bogleheads about the difference between Bogleheads and Mustachians. Lots of straw-man arguments, misconceptions and general denigration of mustachians, but some decent analysis too.

https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=229417&sid=906c0b3fa4f57eb92cbbbdb0489a365c

I liked this summary by BogleFanGal:

Quote
It also seems more people on BH are cautious, pessimistic...worriers - however one labels it...and thus feel a bigger stash is needed to counter all those horrible black swan-like events: (A) dementia for 10+ years or other life altering health issues (B) prolonged market crash of epic proportions, (C) no kids or younger family to care for them...whatever individual demons they fear.

When I visit MMM, they all seem so darn carefree & sure of themselves over there! It's all about building that FIRE stash, then home free for the rest of their life to live like the independent free spirits they deserve to be. They'll figure out a way to survive, no matter what life throws at them.

Seems accurate.

This one from stan1 was kind of funny, too:

Quote
Bogleheads:
Can't retire if you have less than $5M because you need to spend $100K/year and you might end up in a Alzheimer's care unit for more than 10 years.

MMM:
Tell everyone you retired early but start secret businesses repairing/flipping houses and selling soap on etsy.

Personally I think the two sites differ in worldview and a lot of that comes down to demographics. We have a lot of Gen Xers and millennials who don't want to keep working, and they have a lot of boomers who do want to keep working.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2017, 06:20:36 PM by MrMoneySaver »

VoteCthulu

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 409
Bogleheads focus on maximize return on investments, paticularly how expense ratios reduce long term gains.

Mustachians focus on maximizing return on happiness, particularly how consumerism reduces long term Joy.

TheAnonOne

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1804
I always imagined. . .

-The average BH member to be a suit wearing white man in his 50s
-The average MMMer to be a beach bum

MM_MG

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 207
I spend time on both sites...for different reasons...

MMM when I need a reminder that I do not need to save enough for a 1.483% withdrawal rate in retirement.
BH when I need a reminder that I do not need to wash and reuse ziplock bags or sell all my possessions except a bike.

J/k 

We get value from both and appreciate that they are both there for me to learn as we move along in our journey. 

surfhb

  • Guest
Now if only we can convince many of the MMMers here to take a Boglehead approach to investing! 

Take a look at the Investing thread on here and you'll find lots of conversations about cypto currencies and individual stock picking going on.    Its pretty appalling.

This post on BH stood out to me:



"I think Victoria is correct that MMM's followers are implementing this vision to quit work at 30-35 and have more time for self-actualization. That's great for the first 40 years of one's life. What about the last 40 or 50 years?

I have just searched the MMM blog for any posting related to affording assisted-living, disability, becoming disabled, having a heart attack or stroke, nursing home expenses, college expenses, affording children, etc. and could not find one post. In contrast, these types of posts are reasonably frequent on the BH site (how do I afford nursing home, how do I take care of disabled son, how do I handle expenses for family member who has had a stroke, I've recently become disabled, how do I stabilize finances, etc). Thus, I would say to use the info in the MMM site (and the BH site) to get to a better financial position by 30 years old, then use the info on the BH site (there was nothing on the MMM site) to get to the middle and end stages of life without becoming a burden on society."



The biggest difference between the 2 sites are the age groups.    I'll be 50 next year....Once you hit 50 (retired or not) life takes on a completely new look.    The only issue I have with this blog is the somewhat shortsightedness.   I only wish MMM would write a piece about plans when life throws you a curve.    Things like long term care, disability and bear markets aren't discussed here (generally) ALL OF US will experience some or all of these events sometime in our life.     25 years of expenses is a great goal but its not absolute.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2017, 09:56:00 PM by surfhb »

Radagast

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2790
  • One Does Not Simply Work Into Mordor
When I see Bogleheads posts I am often struck by the lack of optimism and the finding of lists of reasons why things won't work out, as exemplified by many posts in that thread. On the other hand, it would be my first stop to ask about the differences between investing in a CD, a brokered CD, and 5-year Treasury STRIPS. Otherwise, I think this is a good summary:
I always think of the "$40k gift to buy a car question" when I think about the difference between BH, ER.org, MMM, and ERE.

Basicly: if someone gave you $40k and said you had to use some or all of it to buy a vehicle what would you buy.

A BH would put the who $40k as a down payment on a $100k luxury car and work longer to pay for it.
An ER.org person would buy a new $40k sensible sedan.
A MMM person.would buy a used Prius for $20k and invest the rest...in Vanguard.
An ERE person would buy a $10 used bike at the thrift store and use the remainer to retire on.

mustachepungoeshere

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2403
  • Location: Sydney, Oz
This one from stan1 was kind of funny, too:

Quote
Bogleheads:
Can't retire if you have less than $5M because you need to spend $100K/year and you might end up in a Alzheimer's care unit for more than 10 years.

MMM:
Tell everyone you retired early but start secret businesses repairing/flipping houses and selling soap on etsy.

Love this.

bacchi

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7804
They really dwell on the ziploc thing. The Wheaton Eco scale comes to mind (even though reusing ziplocs isn't practiced by many here).

It's definitely an older audience. Complaining about "fuck" is a sure sign of the moral majority creeping into your soul.... There are also a number of posters that miss a key tenet but teen persuasion sums it up nicely,

Quote
Mustachians have as a basic tenet that you can reach the point of "enough". Quit playing the game, you've won - you are free to do whatever you like now. Being flexible with plans and contingencies can lower the bar to reaching "enough".

Bogleheads feel that "enough" is a minimum, but more is better. Freedom isn't worth having less stuff, or at least isn't worth the risk that enough may not really be enough long term.


sailaway has some thoughtful posts.


cchrissyy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1049
  • Location: SF Bay Area
I have just searched the MMM blog for any posting related to affording assisted-living, disability, becoming disabled, having a heart attack or stroke, nursing home expenses, college expenses, affording children, etc. and could not find one post. In contrast, these types of posts are reasonably frequent on the BH site

yeah, the search doesn't work very well : )

bacchi

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7804
Ignoring the tu quoque arguments about MMM himself, most of the anti-MMM messages are summarized below.

1) They'll regret not having luxurious goods when they're 60.
2) They're living too close to the poverty level.
3) They're freeloaders.

Now get off of my lawn!

Mr Griz

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 47
  • Location: Texas
Demographically I am probably closer to the BH crowd than MMM but I much prefer the later in terms of the forum & community. Lots of bogleheads seem to needlessly complicate things despite the simplicity of the basic investment tenets laid out by Jack Bogle, specifically the 3 fund portfolio. I browse the BH forum for amusement more than information.

The bogleheads wiki is a true gem however.

Radagast

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2790
  • One Does Not Simply Work Into Mordor
How about this:
ERE realize you get 70% of all money-related happiness at $15,000 per year.
MMM realize you get 80% at $30,000 per year
ER realize you get 90% at $60,000
BH realize you get 100% at $120,000 annually
Then it just depends on how you weight your time.
COL adjusted of course, with a wide margin for error.

h82goslw

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 182
I give thanks DAILY that I have found both BH and MMM.  It’s because of both my life today, and in the future, is pretty fucking awesome. 

Retire-Canada

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9902
I'll be 50 next year....Once you hit 50 (retired or not) life takes on a completely new look.   

I'm 48 rolling up on 50 when I FIRE. I still read a lot of conservative fear based stuff on MMM forums. While MMM's blog may not cover aging [not surprising since he hasn't got there yet], but the forums do address these topics in various discussions.

That said retiring when you are 50 means 20 years less retirement to fund than a 30yr old, easier path to a paid off house if it's not done already and Gov't benefits coming at you around the corner. Heck I think a 50yr old should be less conservative than a 30yr old who is considering retirement.

soccerluvof4

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7168
  • Location: Artic Midwest
  • Retired at 50
    • My Journal
I think there is something to be learned by both.  Having said that I am pretty sure that http://rootofgood.com/  covered the issue on long term care etc.. as did http://retiredtowin.com/  but not a 100% sure. I know one of them did.

Gondolin

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 577
  • Location: Northern VA
The Bogleheads forum is a great resource but, generally, if I wanted to be negged by my grandma that my stash isn't big enough to allow her unborn grandkids from caring for me aboard my yacht  50+ years from now, well, I'd call my grandma more.

RWD

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7280
  • Location: Arizona
There are also a number of posters that miss a key tenet but teen persuasion sums it up nicely,

Quote
Mustachians have as a basic tenet that you can reach the point of "enough". Quit playing the game, you've won - you are free to do whatever you like now. Being flexible with plans and contingencies can lower the bar to reaching "enough".

Bogleheads feel that "enough" is a minimum, but more is better. Freedom isn't worth having less stuff, or at least isn't worth the risk that enough may not really be enough long term.

A little ironic, since John Bogle himself wrote a book titled "Enough".


This post on BH stood out to me:

"I think Victoria is correct that MMM's followers are implementing this vision to quit work at 30-35 and have more time for self-actualization. That's great for the first 40 years of one's life. What about the last 40 or 50 years?

I have just searched the MMM blog for any posting related to affording assisted-living, disability, becoming disabled, having a heart attack or stroke, nursing home expenses, college expenses, affording children, etc. and could not find one post. In contrast, these types of posts are reasonably frequent on the BH site (how do I afford nursing home, how do I take care of disabled son, how do I handle expenses for family member who has had a stroke, I've recently become disabled, how do I stabilize finances, etc). Thus, I would say to use the info in the MMM site (and the BH site) to get to a better financial position by 30 years old, then use the info on the BH site (there was nothing on the MMM site) to get to the middle and end stages of life without becoming a burden on society."

I wouldn't say there aren't any posts on those subjects on the blog, though it is a bit sparse. Example:
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/05/26/what-is-the-real-cost-of-raising-children/

The MMM forums, however, are full of posts on these topics:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/the-%27stache-vs-late-in-life-health-care-costs-wondering-how-this-works-out/
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/post-fire/what-do-you-have-planned-for-longterm-care/
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/long-term-care-insurance-as-part-of-your-fi-plans/
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/expenses-in-old-age/
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/long-term-care-insurer-goes-belly-up/
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/do-you-save-for-kid%27s-college/
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/paying-for-college/
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/post-fire/paying-for-kids%27-college/
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/saving-for-kids-college-is-it-too-late/
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/mini-money-mustaches/how-much-do-you-put-away-for-college-each-month/
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/is-er-possible-with-disabled-child/
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/when-can-we-afford-the-luxury-of-children/
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/mini-money-mustaches/children-and-re/
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/how-do-you-handle-the-never-ending-teenager-expenses/

etc. etc.

spokey doke

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 514
  • Escaped from the ivory tower basement
Now if only we can convince many of the MMMers here to take a Boglehead approach to investing! 

Take a look at the Investing thread on here and you'll find lots of conversations about cypto currencies and individual stock picking going on.    Its pretty appalling.


I find BH is full of thread topics completely contrary to the underlying BH philosophy too...

ketchup

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4323
  • Age: 34
I always think of the "$40k gift to buy a car question" when I think about the difference between BH, ER.org, MMM, and ERE.

Basicly: if someone gave you $40k and said you had to use some or all of it to buy a vehicle what would you buy.

A BH would put the who $40k as a down payment on a $100k luxury car and work longer to pay for it.
An ER.org person would buy a new $40k sensible sedan.
A MMM person.would buy a used Prius for $20k and invest the rest...in Vanguard.
An ERE person would buy a $10 used bike at the thrift store and use the remainer to retire on.
I think this is a pretty good litmus test.  It puts me somewhere between MMM and ERE.  I'd probably buy a $4-5k car (most I've ever spent on a car so far is actually $2k) and ship the rest off to Vanguard.

I think the Bogleheads investing philosophy combined with the no-bullshit and outrageous optimism of MMM is the way to go.

YttriumNitrate

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1945
  • Location: Northwest Indiana
Basicly: if someone gave you $40k and said you had to use some or all of it to buy a vehicle what would you buy.
A BH would put the who $40k as a down payment on a $100k luxury car and work longer to pay for it.
It seems to be pretty well accepted on the Bogleheads site that the only acceptable vehicles are A) A 10 year old Toyota Camry, or B) a brand new Tesla.

arebelspy

  • Administrator
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 28299
  • Age: -999
  • Location: Seattle, WA
I always think of the "$40k gift to buy a car question" when I think about the difference between BH, ER.org, MMM, and ERE.

Basicly: if someone gave you $40k and said you had to use some or all of it to buy a vehicle what would you buy.

A BH would put the who $40k as a down payment on a $100k luxury car and work longer to pay for it.
An ER.org person would buy a new $40k sensible sedan.
A MMM person.would buy a used Prius for $20k and invest the rest...in Vanguard.
An ERE person would buy a $10 used bike at the thrift store and use the remainer to retire on.

Bahaha. I'm glad BCDJ linked this in the best of thread. Great summary!
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

elaine amj

  • CM*TO 2024 Attendees
  • Walrus Stache
  • *
  • Posts: 5610
  • Location: Ontario
I always think of the "$40k gift to buy a car question" when I think about the difference between BH, ER.org, MMM, and ERE.

Basicly: if someone gave you $40k and said you had to use some or all of it to buy a vehicle what would you buy.

A BH would put the who $40k as a down payment on a $100k luxury car and work longer to pay for it.
An ER.org person would buy a new $40k sensible sedan.
A MMM person.would buy a used Prius for $20k and invest the rest...in Vanguard.
An ERE person would buy a $10 used bike at the thrift store and use the remainer to retire on.

Bahaha. I'm glad BCDJ linked this in the best of thread. Great summary!
+1

Sent from my STH100-1 using Tapatalk


exige

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 72
  • Location: Littleton, CO
I always think of the "$40k gift to buy a car question" when I think about the difference between BH, ER.org, MMM, and ERE.

Basicly: if someone gave you $40k and said you had to use some or all of it to buy a vehicle what would you buy.

A BH would put the who $40k as a down payment on a $100k luxury car and work longer to pay for it.
An ER.org person would buy a new $40k sensible sedan.
A MMM person.would buy a used Prius for $20k and invest the rest...in Vanguard.
An ERE person would buy a $10 used bike at the thrift store and use the remainer to retire on.

Bahaha. I'm glad BCDJ linked this in the best of thread. Great summary!

I was just about to quote and say this is the best post I have seen in a while! hahaha

FIFoFum

  • CM*TO 2025 Attendees
  • Handlebar Stache
  • *
  • Posts: 1846
    • Captain's Log - Mission to Puppy Waystation on Puppy Island
I always think of the "$40k gift to buy a car question" when I think about the difference between BH, ER.org, MMM, and ERE.

Basicly: if someone gave you $40k and said you had to use some or all of it to buy a vehicle what would you buy.

A BH would put the who $40k as a down payment on a $100k luxury car and work longer to pay for it.
An ER.org person would buy a new $40k sensible sedan.
A MMM person.would buy a used Prius for $20k and invest the rest...in Vanguard.
An ERE person would buy a $10 used bike at the thrift store and use the remainer to retire on.
I think this is a pretty good litmus test.  It puts me somewhere between MMM and ERE.  I'd probably buy a $4-5k car (most I've ever spent on a car so far is actually $2k) and ship the rest off to Vanguard.

+1 on the original post and the comment. Since it reflects what I thought, I'll add my own (self-professed) category of...

MMM internet police! Reads the comment about used Prius for $20K and explains why they can buy a used Prius for less and have more for Vanguard. :)

PathtoFIRE

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 882
  • Age: 46
  • Location: San Diego
That BH thread is so long, and in just under a month! I've always assumed traffic here was greater than that at BH, but maybe not...or maybe that's just a topic that really excites them. On paper my wife and I are much more like Bogleheads than Mustachians, but this place feels a lot more like my community to me, even if that makes me somewhat of an outlier. Sometimes I'll quickly browse BH if the MMM forums are down, or I've run out of things to read, and of course their core investing philosophy is highly recommendable to anyone.

GnomeErcy

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 98
That BH thread is so long, and in just under a month! I've always assumed traffic here was greater than that at BH, but maybe not...or maybe that's just a topic that really excites them. On paper my wife and I are much more like Bogleheads than Mustachians, but this place feels a lot more like my community to me, even if that makes me somewhat of an outlier. Sometimes I'll quickly browse BH if the MMM forums are down, or I've run out of things to read, and of course their core investing philosophy is highly recommendable to anyone.

BH has over 2x the posts that MMM forums have, FWIW. Not sure how long they've been around vs. here. About the same number of people viewing the forums currently. Both are quite active.

To weigh in though I think ultimately the primary difference I see is what people's definition of "enough" is.

Around here, our definitions of enough tend to be more meager than on BH. Part of that comes down to outlook (I'd say in general MMM seems more positive and BH seems to have a more negative outlook) and some of that is just taste (I'm fine with a non-luxury car, whereas Bogleheads tend to prefer luxury items because they just do)
« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 09:23:27 AM by GnomeErcy »

691175002

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 69
I would probably say BH focuses on getting the most money from their money, whereas MM focuses on getting the most happiness from their money.

From a distance they look similar, because for a lot of people money is happiness.  I think you are at least part MM once you understand the difference.

ducky19

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 783
The Bogleheads forum is a great resource but, generally, if I wanted to be negged by my grandma that my stash isn't big enough to allow her unborn grandkids from caring for me aboard my yacht  50+ years from now, well, I'd call my grandma more.

Thanks, just choked on my coffee (brewed at home) here at work! That's funny, right there... ;)

GU

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 214
Re: worrying about illness/disability/etc. in old age as reason for not ER'ing

Despite rhetoric to the contrary, there is a robust safety net in place for the elderly. Medicare and SS will "fill the gap," should there be one, for the vast majority of early retirees who planned prudently.  And if it doesn't, so what? How many elderly people starve or freeze to death in the U.S.? BH is fundamentally afraid of a non-bougie existence.

I've heard old people (80+) lament the high cost of care, medical procedures, etc. But none have ever said "I should've worked an extra 10 years! Goddamn my libertine desire to stop working for someone else!" If I had to choose a time to be miserable, it would be when I'm elderly. Killing your soul in middle-age to live it up as an old fart doesn't make sense.

misshathaway

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 389
  • Age: 68
  • Location: Massachusetts
There is a pretty good recent thread at Bogleheads about the difference between Bogleheads and Mustachians. Lots of straw-man arguments, misconceptions and general denigration of mustachians, but some decent analysis too.

I liked this summary by BogleFanGal:

Quote
It also seems more people on BH are cautious, pessimistic...worriers - however one labels it...and thus feel a bigger stash is needed to counter all those horrible black swan-like events: (A) dementia for 10+ years or other life altering health issues (B) prolonged market crash of epic proportions, (C) no kids or younger family to care for them...whatever individual demons they fear.

When I visit MMM, they all seem so darn carefree & sure of themselves over there! It's all about building that FIRE stash, then home free for the rest of their life to live like the independent free spirits they deserve to be. They'll figure out a way to survive, no matter what life throws at them.

Seems accurate.

This one from stan1 was kind of funny, too:

Quote
Bogleheads:
Can't retire if you have less than $5M because you need to spend $100K/year and you might end up in a Alzheimer's care unit for more than 10 years.

MMM:
Tell everyone you retired early but start secret businesses repairing/flipping houses and selling soap on etsy.

Too funny. Thanks for posting. Sounds like I should head on over to Bogleheads.

honeybbq

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1468
  • Location: Seattle
I always think of the "$40k gift to buy a car question" when I think about the difference between BH, ER.org, MMM, and ERE.

Basicly: if someone gave you $40k and said you had to use some or all of it to buy a vehicle what would you buy.

A BH would put the who $40k as a down payment on a $100k luxury car and work longer to pay for it.
An ER.org person would buy a new $40k sensible sedan.
A MMM person.would buy a used Prius for $20k and invest the rest...in Vanguard.
An ERE person would buy a $10 used bike at the thrift store and use the remainer to retire on.

No way. BH would pony up the 100k and pay cash for the luxury car... because they can. :D

honeybbq

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1468
  • Location: Seattle
Re: worrying about illness/disability/etc. in old age as reason for not ER'ing

Despite rhetoric to the contrary, there is a robust safety net in place for the elderly. Medicade and SS will "fill the gap," should there be one, for the vast majority of early retirees who planned prudently.  And if it doesn't, so what? How many elderly people starve or freeze to death in the U.S.? BH is fundamentally afraid of a non-bougie existence.

I've heard old people (80+) lament the high cost of care, medical procedures, etc. But none have ever said "I should've worked an extra 10 years! Goddamn my libertine desire to stop working for someone else!" If I had to choose a time to be miserable, it would be when I'm elderly. Killing your soul in middle-age to live it up as an old fart doesn't make sense.

Going through this right now with an elderly family member. Rather than being in some Medicaid picked home (wherever they have space), the individual can stay in their own home and have round the clock care. Familiarity is important when you are old and confused. You don't have to move and lose the things that ground you, be it your couch you've had for 20 years or that sticky drawer in the kitchen. The cost of round the clock live in care is ~15k a month. They are lucky to have the assets to do this (at least for some time) before having to give up most of what they know and go with whatever Medicaid has in store for them. We got to help pick the individuals and company and meet them first. Having choice is something you'd give up if you have no money.

It's definitely solidified my desire for solid funding in my elderly days. While there is a 'last ditch care' it's a lot easier if you are driving the boat where you want to go and can make choices on what is best for the individual rather than asking "what is paid for?"
« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 12:19:55 PM by honeybbq »

GettingClose

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 108
Quote
Going through this right now with an elderly family member. Rather than being in some Medicare picked home (wherever they have space), the individual can stay in their own home and have round the clock care. Familiarity is important when you are old and confused. You don't have to move and lose the things that ground you, be it your couch you've had for 20 years or that sticky drawer in the kitchen. The cost of round the clock live in care is ~15k a month. They are lucky to have the assets to do this (at least for some time) before having to give up most of what they know and go with whatever Medicare has in store for them. We got to help pick the individuals and company and meet them first. Having choice is something you'd give up if you have no money.

I completely agree with the sentiment, but as a minor correction, it's Medicaid (which varies greatly from state to state), not Medicare which cares for the elderly with no assets.  This is partly the reason the current proposed tax cuts worry me - "The Republican budget would gouge $1 trillion from Medicaid, more than 60 percent of which pays for long-term care for seniors who have already impoverished themselves to qualify."  http://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/353914-unjust-gop-budget-and-tax-plan-cuts-the-safety-net-for-seniors

orangepalm

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 34
  • Location: Florida
    • Frugalcrib
A BH would put the who $40k as a down payment on a $100k luxury car and work longer to pay for it.
An ER.org person would buy a new $40k sensible sedan.
A MMM person.would buy a used Prius for $20k and invest the rest...in Vanguard.
An ERE person would buy a $10 used bike at the thrift store and use the remainer to retire on.

This is absolutely hilarious and hits close to home (we have a $6k used Prius)! I read the BH forums from time to time for 2 things: (1) very specific investment/tax discussions and (2) being amused by topics discussing whether or not a 62 year-old could ever retire on $3 million and a paid off house.


MrMoneySaver

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 201
The costs of old age definitely worry me, and they probably deserve more attention around here. As others have said, that's probably mainly an issue of mustachians being younger on average than Bogleheads.

What I think is lost on Bogleheads is that we have no intention of being broke in old age. For many mustachians, the portfolio will keep growing throughout many years of early retirement, given that mustachians are conservative with spending and will perhaps pick up side gigs along the way. The main difference is that we will forgo a lot of the luxuries that they may find important.

Perhaps a mustachian reaches age 70 with $2 million or $3 million, compared to the Boglehead with $5 million or more. The mustachian amount is still far, far above average, and it affords a good amount of choice.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 10:48:01 AM by MrMoneySaver »

EricEng

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 605
  • Location: CO
The cost of round the clock live in care is ~15k a month.
$180,000 a year?!?  Do you have 3-4 full time people working there?! 
https://www.payingforseniorcare.com/longtermcare/live-in-caregiver.html
https://www.npr.org/2012/05/01/151472617/discovering-the-true-cost-of-at-home-caregiving
These sources suggest that your estimate of $15k a month is far off.

koshtra

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 661
  • Location: Portland, Oregon, USA
    • Mole
This site has been a lifesaver, this last year. Cheerful people who plow into problems and fix them! Yes, please. My Facebook feed was full of lugubrious academics, and I just had to find another place to hang out online. God knows there's been plenty to be lugubrious about, but there's no point in wallowing in bad news, even if these are the end times. (In fact, especially if these are the end times.)

FIFoFum

  • CM*TO 2025 Attendees
  • Handlebar Stache
  • *
  • Posts: 1846
    • Captain's Log - Mission to Puppy Waystation on Puppy Island
The costs of old age definitely worry me, and they probably deserve more attention around here. As others have said, that's probably mainly an issue of mustachians being younger on average than Bogleheads.

The age difference is big.

If we're talking about informed people, the average Boomer has a much more realistic sense of just how much $ matters with quality of life through aging/long-term disability. The USA system is bimodal - either you are incredibly wealthy to afford concierge and choose-your-own care or you need to be/will become poor to pay for things. There are limited options for being frugal or in the middle on this. They are preparing for the now and near term future & have experience navigating this system based on actual loved ones, not by reading something online.

The average Millenial may not have the same lived experience to be realistic about the costs of aging. At the same time, they have little reason to think that the system today matches what it will eventually be in 40 or 50 years either. So on the one hand, they might not be realistic about the true costs. But on the other hand, they may realize that the marginal value of more $ simply can't insure against this uncertainty to be worth the trade-offs it would require to get/earn/save more.

arebelspy

  • Administrator
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 28299
  • Age: -999
  • Location: Seattle, WA
God knows there's been plenty to be lugubrious about, but there's no point in wallowing in bad news, even if these are the end times. (In fact, especially if these are the end times.)

Indeed!  Love it.
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

GettingClose

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 108
Quote
These sources suggest that your estimate of $15k a month is far off.

For quality, reliable care, this is accurate.  If you hire through an agency like  Home Helpers, you'll pay a minimum of $18/hour, and the caregiver will get $12/hour.   You'll often get a caregiver who often doesn't show up on time, cancels at the last minute, doesn't follow instructions, and even worse.  However, you won't have the hassle of finding caregivers and screening them, or handling employer taxes, etc.

If you hire caregivers on your own, you're going to need to pay, even in a rural area, at least $16-18/hour for the kind of person you would want to care for your parent, and you'll have to find at least 3 to cover all hours of a week.  Then you have employer match for SS, etc., on top of that, plus all the hassle of doing payroll.

This is for a parent who truly requires round-the-clock care.  Fortunately, most people can make do with someone dropping in for 2-3 hours morning and night, and having a family member sleep over.  Or if the house is big enough, paying a reliable older woman $2-3k a month + use of car + personal living space to live in. But with advanced illness or dementia, especially the combative/aggressive type, round the clock care using multiple caregivers is a necessity and is expensive.

I know this from extensive personal experience.

WootWoot

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 387
Funny this should come up. I have just started reading "Smart and Simple Financial Strategies for Busy People" by Jane Bryant Quinn. In the chapter entitled "Your Safety Net" she talks about long-term care insurance as well as term life insurance. My mother is 80 years old and doesn't have long-term care insurance. I have term life insurance through work, for my spouse and myself, and it will end if and when the job ends. Quinn recommends going out and finding your own policy. I have been extremely avoidant re: insurance. We've been married 30 years and only had renter's insurance for the past year. I see the AARP offers life insurance for members. I honestly don't know if I should look into it much.

I've never really seen the point in having a lot of life insurance, as we have no kids, never will, don't own a home, and I think my spouse can take care of himself if he needs to. Vice versa.

Of course this could be a whole other thread...

Milizard

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 769
  • Location: West Michigan


I've never really seen the point in having a lot of life insurance, as we have no kids, never will, don't own a home, and I think my spouse can take care of himself if he needs to. Vice versa.

Of course this could be a whole other thread...

You don't need life insurance under these circumstances.  Life insurance is for the dependents.  As far as LT care insurance is concerned, my understanding that it is very limited in coverage (what you can get these days), so largely useless.

BigHaus89

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 212
  • Age: 36
  • Location: NW
  • Ride the Spiral to the End
It's interesting that BH forum members think we all live in chosen-poverty in our unheated single bedroom homes.

Laura33

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3930
  • Location: Mid-Atlantic
Re: worrying about illness/disability/etc. in old age as reason for not ER'ing

Despite rhetoric to the contrary, there is a robust safety net in place for the elderly. Medicare and SS will "fill the gap," should there be one, for the vast majority of early retirees who planned prudently.  And if it doesn't, so what? How many elderly people starve or freeze to death in the U.S.? BH is fundamentally afraid of a non-bougie existence.

I've heard old people (80+) lament the high cost of care, medical procedures, etc. But none have ever said "I should've worked an extra 10 years! Goddamn my libertine desire to stop working for someone else!" If I had to choose a time to be miserable, it would be when I'm elderly. Killing your soul in middle-age to live it up as an old fart doesn't make sense.

Medicare doesn't cover nursing homes -- that's Medicaid.  And have you seen the kind of nursing homes available on Medicaid?  And how little money you are allowed to keep for "luxuries" like toothpaste before you are even eligible for government support?  And, honestly, the lack of care or interest provided by some of the employees there?  We've been through this with my great-aunt, and it was really frightening -- the places that took Medicaid were generally horrible, and the one not-horrible option we found had a huge waiting list.  And she ended up dying in a post-hospital Medicaid-approved nursing home because someone just stopped listening to her buzzing for help and didn't bring her her asthma medicine, so she suffocated in her own bed. 

Oh, and if you get cancer, do you want to go to the local guy who takes Medicaid or Medicare, and do whatever procedure/drugs the government has decided to pay for?  Or do you want to do what my in-laws did and hop on a plane to the guy with the best surgical stats in the country and take his advice?  She's still here 4.5 yrs later, with a cancer with an average survival rate of less than a year, so I'm going to call that a win.  Sometimes money really is the difference between life and death. 

I also guarantee you no 85-yr-old said "gee, I'm glad I chose my final years to be miserable."  Those final years can be just as precious to them as the younger ones, precisely because they know the story is coming to an end, so they don't take the time for granted any more.  Don't assume that you are going to value your life, your experience less when you are older -- you are still going to be you.  And having the money to make those years comfortable and enjoyable in fact makes them even more valuable.  IMO this is one of the big differences you get with the age difference between MMM and BH:  more of the BHs tend to be at an age where they have been through this with their parents and/or where the possibility of being old and infirm is beginning to feel more like a reality.

Q:  Where does outrageous optimism come from?  Why is it valid and a better approach to life than pessimism and planning for the worst?  A:  It comes from recognizing the power you hold as a capable, competent human being.  It comes from knowing that if everything hits the shitter, you have the power and ability to fix whatever the problem is -- you can cut back spending, or get a part-time job, or move to a cheaper area, etc.  The problem is, when you are 85 and infirm, you don't have that power any more.  You can't go back to work, because no one will hire you, and you might not physically be able to do the job anyway.  You can always cut, but if you're living on SS, and/or don't have a significant 'stache remaining, you're never going to be able to cut enough to cover a decent nursing home -- or maybe you can cover your own care, but in doing so drain all the assets for your surviving spouse.  Maybe you can move somewhere cheaper, but if you need family and friends to look out for you, you're leaving the people and experiences who give your life meaning and joy behind -- and, again, you're not likely to be able to cut enough to cover a 6-figure nursing home bill (much less two).  By that age, you are stuck with whatever you have managed to save or your relatives can provide.

Doesn't mean you have to go over to the far side of the conservative spectrum, of course.  Be optimistic -- revel in your power to set yourself up for success!  But add a little humility to the equation: acknowledge that you might not always be as fit, as capable, as employable, as powerful as you are now.  In the same way you spend your 20s and 30s setting $$ aside on behalf of the You you will be in your 40s and 50s and 60s, think even further ahead, about the more helpless You you will/hope to be in your 80s and 90s.   Assume that 80-yr-old You will want to live and be comfortable and respected and cared for just as much as you do now -- in fact, will need it even moreso than Current You, because that You will have less power to adjust course in response to problems that arise.  Think how would you want someone to treat your mom, your grandma, your most beloved relative or friend -- and ask yourself if you'll really want less for yourself?  Give that Future You a place at the table now, when you are making your plans.  Doesn't mean 80-yr-old You runs the show -- you always have to balance the magnitude of the risk against the likelihood of it happening, balance your needs at 80 against your needs at 50 and your needs now, balance the tradeoffs involved in seeking a guaranteed big-enough 'stache (many, many more years working). 

For me, that balance sure as hell does not involve counting on SS and Medicaid/Medicare to take care of me, because I don't want to live my final years in a shithole with people who don't even respect me (much less care about my wellbeing), surrounded by the smells of urine and feces.  Just fucking kill me now.  So I have some LTC insurance, and I am planning on a larger 'stache to (I hope) cover at least a reasonable, clean place that doesn't nauseate me.  And, hey, my job doesn't suck, so the tradeoff isn't that bad -- if my job were horrible, that would shift the calculus more heavily towards Current Me instead of 80-yr-old Me.

I'm sorry if I sound angry about this.  It's not personal -- I'm angry at the shit-ass safety net we provide for our most vulnerable, angry about the treatment some of them receive, and worried that people are making decisions that will come back to bite them in the ass, based on incorrect assumptions and minimal data.  Just do as much research into future medical/care costs and options as you would into the 4% rule or appropriate portfolio allocation or how much to spend on a used car or [insert MMM topic of choice here].

neil

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 215
I know little also.  There's this:

http://www.aaltci.org/long-term-care-insurance-rates/

Frankly, these don't cover much.  They sure cost a lot, and people with preexisting conditions or family history that increases their likelihood for LTC need cannot get insurance.

Ultimately, most people on MMM and BH are going to be in the top percentiles of net worth because we are savers.  What about the other 90%?  They must really be fucked.  Should we start building soylent green factories?

If health care costs continue to grow relatively unconstrained, is there really any cap on the number of dollars you need?  Then, what is the point?  I know I can't ask my 70 year old self what he thinks, but I hope he appreciates that my 40 year old self had goals and was able to achieve them because of my life choices.  I guess I'll find out in 30 years.

WoodSpinner

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 10
I spend time on both sites...for different reasons...

MMM when I need a reminder that I do not need to save enough for a 1.483% withdrawal rate in retirement.
BH when I need a reminder that I do not need to wash and reuse ziplock bags or sell all my possessions except a bike.

J/k 

We get value from both and appreciate that they are both there for me to learn as we move along in our journey.

+1 for me -- I like both forums, each has a different flair.

scantee

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 595
Quote
Oh, and if you get cancer, do you want to go to the local guy who takes Medicaid or Medicare, and do whatever procedure/drugs the government has decided to pay for?  Or do you want to do what my in-laws did and hop on a plane to the guy with the best surgical stats in the country and take his advice?

I would have no problem going to the local guy who takes Medicare/caid.  In truth, there is greatly diminishing utility in additional spending for health care interventions over the costs incurred for standard treatment from an average doctor. We don't want to believe that, because it is comforting to think we that there is a direct connection between paying more for health interventions and longer life. This is one reason why countries with socialized medicine and lower costs have just as, and often better, outcomes than the highest of high-tech American healthcare system.

Also, I seriously do not want my children to spend $180k a year to make sure I have a comfortable death. That feels like such an unbelievable waste to me. Stick me in whatever home is the cheapest and come visit me on occasion, that's all I ask for.

JayhawkRacer

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 46
I liked this one:

Quote
Bogleheads: Folks who wish to optimize their financial portfolios by removing waste

MMM: Hippies who also follow Bogle.


I think the people over at BH think we're basically Early Retirement Extreme. All of this is a spectrum in terms of seriousness about saving and investing.

Early Retirement Extreme --> Mr. Money Mustache --> Bogleheads ---------------------------------> Amazon comments on fancy handbags

PoutineLover

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1651
I don't really know the bogleheads, but I think an important part of mustachianism is keeping fit and healthy and maintaining that into old age. I know you can't guarantee that you won't need long term care, and accidents and deterioration happen anyway, but if you live an active lifestyle both physically and mentally, and eat well, and surround yourself with loved ones, in a walkable neighborhood, you have far greater chances of being more mobile and keeping your mental capacity for longer. The lifestyle is more important than the finances for me, I'm trying to design a life that gives me all that I need for less money and while creating less waste. I also live in Canada, so health care costs are far less of a concern, although the government provided nursing homes are still not somewhere I'd like to end up.

Retire-Canada

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9902
I don't really know the bogleheads, but I think an important part of mustachianism is keeping fit and healthy and maintaining that into old age.

I'd rather be healthy with $1M than unhealthy with $5M.