This sums up the difference between Mustachians and Bogleheads pretty well ...

[NoStacheOhio]

CTCA is basically predatory, but there are differences between going to your local general oncologist, a Commission on Cancer accredited program, or a top program like M.D. Anderson.  Your local oncologist is less likely to follow established treatment guidelines and less likely to recommend a clinical trial.  And if you are interested in the most cutting edge aggressive treatments, your best bet is a top program.

I think a more major misconception is that CoC programs and top centers don’t take Medicare and Medicaid.  They may not contract with out of state Medicaid or certain Medicare Advantage plans, but all of them take regular Medicare.  Money can facilitate travel, but most people can access a top cancer program with their insurance.

+1

In researching outcomes for my wife, we found that her particular cancer has (statistically) poorer outcomes because ~50% of patients either don't receive any treatment or don't receive standard of care (e.g. they get radiation but no chemo, or only external beam radiation, or their side effects aren't well-managed and they don't complete treatment). Socioeconomic status plays into it as well, but the treatments were wildly variable depending on where you went.

[andy85]

snip/...versions of futureMe posts...

That was a really good post Laura. Definitely a lot to chew on after that....

[Harper]

My plan for when I'm elderly and can't take care of myself: I married a woman 10 years my junior. She'll be plenty young still when I'm in need of a diaper changing.

I know you're joking but you never know what could befall the younger spouse.  We had neighbors that were 12 years apart.  She was the younger of the two, in amazing shape and active for her age.  Cancer hit and took her within months. 

[PhilB]

So all I am saying is to give 2062Me a seat at the table, with all of the other Current-and-Future-Mes, and try to figure out what s/he's going to want with the same degree of intensity and focus that you are giving to 2017Me-2061Me.

I'm nearly half way through working 3 extra years to make sure 2062 Me is covered.  They'd better be grateful the selfish old bastard.
A little-observed corollary of 'the shockingly simple math behind early retirement' is that if you have a 66% saving rate in employment, then 3 extra years translates to a 25% savings rate in retirement so there should be plenty in the kitty for them to pay for home help - particularly as I doubt they'll be taking that many holidays when they're 96..

[elaine amj]

My plan for when I'm elderly and can't take care of myself: I married a woman 10 years my junior. She'll be plenty young still when I'm in need of a diaper changing.

LOL! That was my DH's strategy (I'm 9 years younger). We've joked about racing with our DD - I'll push DH in a wheelchair while DD pushes her kid!

[SecretSquirrel]

I always think of the "$40k gift to buy a car question" when I think about the difference between BH, ER.org, MMM, and ERE.

Basicly: if someone gave you $40k and said you had to use some or all of it to buy a vehicle what would you buy.

A BH would put the who $40k as a down payment on a $100k luxury car and work longer to pay for it.

Really? Seems way off base. Of all my time on the BH forum, the most often repeated advice is to: A. don't go into debt for a car and pay cash, B. don't spend too much on a car, i.e. the frequent recommendation is Camry/Corolla/Accord/Civic, and C. drive the car for a long time.

I'd say the typical BH would buy a new(ish) Camry and drive it for 10+ years, whereas the Mustachian might either try to get rid of the car altogether, or drive an even cheaper car.

[arebelspy]

Yeah, more accurate would be "BH adds 60k of their own money to buy a 100k car".

Was a joke though.

[TomTX]

I always think of the "$40k gift to buy a car question" when I think about the difference between BH, ER.org, MMM, and ERE.

Basicly: if someone gave you $40k and said you had to use some or all of it to buy a vehicle what would you buy.

A BH would put the who $40k as a down payment on a $100k luxury car and work longer to pay for it.
An ER.org person would buy a new $40k sensible sedan.
A MMM person.would buy a used Prius for less than $20k and invest the rest...in Vanguard.
An ERE person would buy a $10 used bike at the thrift store and use the remainder to retire on.

Edited too fix speling.

I just read this aloud to my wife on the other side of the room. Her response:

"My first thought was to buy some $1 used roller skates and invest the rest...

... Or maybe a Tesla. Make sure to tell them it's a Model 3, not an S or X."

[TomTX]

I am not talking about chasing unicorns.  Three real-life examples from the past @5 years:

a.  Different doctors offer different treatments (under the "if you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail" theory).  There may not be anyone locally who takes Medicaid/basic Medicare with experience in the most effective treatment and room on his schedule.

b.  You can research success rates for surgery.  With most, there is a clear correlation between # of procedures performed and success/complication rates.  Yes, there may be selection bias, so you need to consider whether the surgeon turns away complicated cases.  In my MIL's case, the difference in the numbers between the guy who actually invented the surgery and the local guys who performed it were like 2:1.  For my FIL, that was "fuck it and get on a plane" territory.

c.  My MIL just got put on an experimental drug that runs about $2K/mo.* and is covered by Medicare, but then Medicare refused to pay.  My FIL again said fuck it and got her on the drug and fought about reimbursement afterwards.

Now, I'm biased because I work at a massive academic medical center, but I'm constantly amazed at the people who won't drive <2 hours for a center with excellent outcomes. Pick a procedure/disease, any procedure/disease, and we probably handle exponentially more of them than an average community hospital. If you have some crazy rare thing, we've probably seen 10 other people with it in the last six months or whatever. But sure, get your bypass with a general surgeon in your town because it's closer, it's not like it's a once-in-a-lifetime decision that could have massive effects on how you live the rest of your life.

/rant

If you have a broken leg, sure, community hospitals are fine, but when it gets serious, you get serious too.

It took me MANY years to get my (retired) parents to understand this. You are RETIRED. You have TIME. If the urology group really sucks* in your city, figure out where there is a good urologist, and use THEM. Driving 3 hours each way a couple of times a year is FAR better than going back for the same UTI 6 times and getting the same exact antibiotic prescription 6 times to temporarily "solve" the infection without actually getting to the root of the issue.

*They really do suck.

[talltexan]

???

He recently stopped posting on Bogleheads.  There were some posters who were extremely antagonistic whenever he would post, and he tired of it.

I, too, saw the RIP after Swedroe's name and suddenly worried he had died. I only discovered him a few months ago, but I believe he is one of the smartest people writing about investing today.

[ROF Expat]

I think Bogleheads are more about playing the game within the rules of our financial/social system and "winning" by amassing financial assets.  Consumption isn't generally frowned upon if it doesn't prevent the accumulation of those financial assets.  MMM seems to me to be much more about a philosophy that questions many of the fundamentals of our financial/social system.  There is a theme of asceticism and an often stated desire to reach FIRE to be able to drop out of the prevailing financial/social system, or at least normal employment.  I think a lot of our society's leaders would view Mustachianism as rebellious or subversive if they thought it could grow too large. 

I probably fit the Boglehead demographic and philosophy more than MMM, but I spend time here because I find it interesting and helpful to question my own assumptions and to consider different approaches to life.  As Thomas Jefferson pointed out, "a little rebellion now and then is a good thing." 

[MrMoneySaver]

I think Bogleheads are more about playing the game within the rules of our financial/social system and "winning" by amassing financial assets.  Consumption isn't generally frowned upon if it doesn't prevent the accumulation of those financial assets.  MMM seems to me to be much more about a philosophy that questions many of the fundamentals of our financial/social system.  There is a theme of asceticism and an often stated desire to reach FIRE to be able to drop out of the prevailing financial/social system, or at least normal employment.  I think a lot of our society's leaders would view Mustachianism as rebellious or subversive if they thought it could grow too large. 

I probably fit the Boglehead demographic and philosophy more than MMM, but I spend time here because I find it interesting and helpful to question my own assumptions and to consider different approaches to life.  As Thomas Jefferson pointed out, "a little rebellion now and then is a good thing."

I was thinking the same thing. MMM is about hacking the system.

[Spartans]

Will Future You curse Present You when that headache you thought was from staring at the computer screen and work stress is actually stage IV cancer and now you don't have time to hike the PCT? Or, more likely, Future You is one of the many who simply becomes less able to do a loved hobby and there are regrets..."If only I had quit 5-10 years earlier. I didn't really need the money but I sure did love riding horses."

Living in fear can also cause regrets.

Oh, ITA (which, in fact, is why I bought my highly unMustachian StupidCar this year, because what's the point in having an awesome toy if your knees won't let you drive a stick shift any more and your back won't let you get in and out?).  It's always a balance.

I am not actually advocating for a specific outcome.  My point is more that the natural order of things is to prioritize current wants over future wants.  We tend to think that we are immune to this very human trait -- I mean, aren't we all here because we are putting our future needs over today's wants?  My concern is that our optimism and belief in our own ability to delay gratification may give us a false sense of confidence about our ability to predict what FutureUs will actually need.

Think about it this way:  a normal person is going to choose 2017Me over 2032Me -- they are going to buy a house and a car and go out to eat a lot, even though it means they will need to work until 2052.  Ergo, their choices are fun for 2017Me-2032Me, but screw over 2033Me-2052Me.  We, OTOH, think a lot about 2032Me, to the extent that we frequently tell 2017Me "no," because 2032Me is more important.  That feels very much like we are awesome at delayed gratification -- like we naturally prioritize the future over the present.  Because we do it every day!

But when we envision FIRE, our focus is basically on 2032Me-2052Me -- that "early" part of "early retirement," when we are FI and still young and fit and can be active and do all the things 2017Me is looking forward to.  That is a very limited future that we are focusing on -- and one that is built around what 2017Me wants ("dammit, I reallyreallyreally want to hike the PCT, I can't wait until 2032Me gets to do that!").  And that focus on 2032Me-2052Me also means that we don't necessarily think about 2062Me, or 2072Me, or those other FutureMes who will no longer be able to do all of that same awesome stuff that 2017Me is so looking forward to.  So we feel like we are delaying gratification for the benefit of AllFutureMes, when in reality we are doing it for the benefit of NearFutureMe and not even thinking about DistantFutureMe (beyond simply assuming that DistantFutureMe will want the same things NearFutureMe does). 

IMO, it is easy to overlook the fact that this laser-beam focus on FIRE is in fact focusing on 2017Me's idea of what 2032Me will want (freedom!!!), but that that vision may not in fact be at all what 2062Me will want or need.  So all I am saying is to give 2062Me a seat at the table, with all of the other Current-and-Future-Mes, and try to figure out what s/he's going to want with the same degree of intensity and focus that you are giving to 2017Me-2061Me.

Excellent post.  Thank you.

[Milizard]

I am not talking about chasing unicorns.  Three real-life examples from the past @5 years:

a.  Different doctors offer different treatments (under the "if you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail" theory).  There may not be anyone locally who takes Medicaid/basic Medicare with experience in the most effective treatment and room on his schedule.

b.  You can research success rates for surgery.  With most, there is a clear correlation between # of procedures performed and success/complication rates.  Yes, there may be selection bias, so you need to consider whether the surgeon turns away complicated cases.  In my MIL's case, the difference in the numbers between the guy who actually invented the surgery and the local guys who performed it were like 2:1.  For my FIL, that was "fuck it and get on a plane" territory.

c.  My MIL just got put on an experimental drug that runs about $2K/mo.* and is covered by Medicare, but then Medicare refused to pay.  My FIL again said fuck it and got her on the drug and fought about reimbursement afterwards.

Now, I'm biased because I work at a massive academic medical center, but I'm constantly amazed at the people who won't drive <2 hours for a center with excellent outcomes. Pick a procedure/disease, any procedure/disease, and we probably handle exponentially more of them than an average community hospital. If you have some crazy rare thing, we've probably seen 10 other people with it in the last six months or whatever. But sure, get your bypass with a general surgeon in your town because it's closer, it's not like it's a once-in-a-lifetime decision that could have massive effects on how you live the rest of your life.

/rant

If you have a broken leg, sure, community hospitals are fine, but when it gets serious, you get serious too.

It took me MANY years to get my (retired) parents to understand this. You are RETIRED. You have TIME. If the urology group really sucks* in your city, figure out where there is a good urologist, and use THEM. Driving 3 hours each way a couple of times a year is FAR better than going back for the same UTI 6 times and getting the same exact antibiotic prescription 6 times to temporarily "solve" the infection without actually getting to the root of the issue.

*They really do suck.

Very true, but a 3 hour drive can also be very taxing, depending on their condition, of course.  With a UTI, there'd also have to be a couple potty breaks in there.

[NoStacheOhio]

Very true, but a 3 hour drive can also be very taxing, depending on their condition, of course.  With a UTI, there'd also have to be a couple potty breaks in there.

Yes, but having recurrent UTIs for years because your local urology is technically an idiot is worse than driving six hours once or twice to get it fixed for real. Hell, you may be able to get a virtual visit, not leave the house AND see someone who knows what they're doing.

[TomTX]

I am not talking about chasing unicorns.  Three real-life examples from the past @5 years:

a.  Different doctors offer different treatments (under the "if you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail" theory).  There may not be anyone locally who takes Medicaid/basic Medicare with experience in the most effective treatment and room on his schedule.

b.  You can research success rates for surgery.  With most, there is a clear correlation between # of procedures performed and success/complication rates.  Yes, there may be selection bias, so you need to consider whether the surgeon turns away complicated cases.  In my MIL's case, the difference in the numbers between the guy who actually invented the surgery and the local guys who performed it were like 2:1.  For my FIL, that was "fuck it and get on a plane" territory.

c.  My MIL just got put on an experimental drug that runs about $2K/mo.* and is covered by Medicare, but then Medicare refused to pay.  My FIL again said fuck it and got her on the drug and fought about reimbursement afterwards.

Now, I'm biased because I work at a massive academic medical center, but I'm constantly amazed at the people who won't drive <2 hours for a center with excellent outcomes. Pick a procedure/disease, any procedure/disease, and we probably handle exponentially more of them than an average community hospital. If you have some crazy rare thing, we've probably seen 10 other people with it in the last six months or whatever. But sure, get your bypass with a general surgeon in your town because it's closer, it's not like it's a once-in-a-lifetime decision that could have massive effects on how you live the rest of your life.

/rant

If you have a broken leg, sure, community hospitals are fine, but when it gets serious, you get serious too.

It took me MANY years to get my (retired) parents to understand this. You are RETIRED. You have TIME. If the urology group really sucks* in your city, figure out where there is a good urologist, and use THEM. Driving 3 hours each way a couple of times a year is FAR better than going back for the same UTI 6 times and getting the same exact antibiotic prescription 6 times to temporarily "solve" the infection without actually getting to the root of the issue.

*They really do suck.

Very true, but a 3 hour drive can also be very taxing, depending on their condition, of course.  With a UTI, there'd also have to be a couple potty breaks in there.

They can spend the entire day doing the 3 hour drive, spend the night before the appointment in a motel and actually get the underlying issues addressed.

Or, you seem to think that's too much bother and just live with wasting a day every 6 month going to the local idiot and keep getting UTIs for years. Plus the negative effects of living with UTIs since it takes awhile to get an appointment.

[Milizard]

I am not talking about chasing unicorns.  Three real-life examples from the past @5 years:

a.  Different doctors offer different treatments (under the "if you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail" theory).  There may not be anyone locally who takes Medicaid/basic Medicare with experience in the most effective treatment and room on his schedule.

b.  You can research success rates for surgery.  With most, there is a clear correlation between # of procedures performed and success/complication rates.  Yes, there may be selection bias, so you need to consider whether the surgeon turns away complicated cases.  In my MIL's case, the difference in the numbers between the guy who actually invented the surgery and the local guys who performed it were like 2:1.  For my FIL, that was "fuck it and get on a plane" territory.

c.  My MIL just got put on an experimental drug that runs about $2K/mo.* and is covered by Medicare, but then Medicare refused to pay.  My FIL again said fuck it and got her on the drug and fought about reimbursement afterwards.

Now, I'm biased because I work at a massive academic medical center, but I'm constantly amazed at the people who won't drive <2 hours for a center with excellent outcomes. Pick a procedure/disease, any procedure/disease, and we probably handle exponentially more of them than an average community hospital. If you have some crazy rare thing, we've probably seen 10 other people with it in the last six months or whatever. But sure, get your bypass with a general surgeon in your town because it's closer, it's not like it's a once-in-a-lifetime decision that could have massive effects on how you live the rest of your life.

/rant

If you have a broken leg, sure, community hospitals are fine, but when it gets serious, you get serious too.

It took me MANY years to get my (retired) parents to understand this. You are RETIRED. You have TIME. If the urology group really sucks* in your city, figure out where there is a good urologist, and use THEM. Driving 3 hours each way a couple of times a year is FAR better than going back for the same UTI 6 times and getting the same exact antibiotic prescription 6 times to temporarily "solve" the infection without actually getting to the root of the issue.

*They really do suck.

Very true, but a 3 hour drive can also be very taxing, depending on their condition, of course.  With a UTI, there'd also have to be a couple potty breaks in there.

They can spend the entire day doing the 3 hour drive, spend the night before the appointment in a motel and actually get the underlying issues addressed.

Or, you seem to think that's too much bother and just live with wasting a day every 6 month going to the local idiot and keep getting UTIs for years. Plus the negative effects of living with UTIs since it takes awhile to get an appointment.

That's a pretty nasty response just for my pointing out that a long drive gets challenging for seniors as they age.

As far as the shitty urologist.  I've gotten treated for that just by my regular doctor, as has my elderly mother just last week. Not sure why you even need a specialist, but maybe it was a more difficult case.

[NoStacheOhio]

As far as the shitty urologist.  I've gotten treated for that just by my regular doctor, as has my elderly mother just last week. Not sure why you even need a specialist, but maybe it was a more difficult case.

Not all doctors are equal, which is kind of the original point. A good local internist is a huge asset to their patients. There's also a shortage of them.

[Milizard]

As far as the shitty urologist.  I've gotten treated for that just by my regular doctor, as has my elderly mother just last week. Not sure why you even need a specialist, but maybe it was a more difficult case.

Not all doctors are equal, which is kind of the original point. A good local internist is a huge asset to their patients. There's also a shortage of them.

Is this some sort of super UTI or something?  Is this an extremely rural area?  I had a UTI about a month ago.  I can never see my doc, so saw her nurse practitioner.  Told her my symptoms, she had me pee in a cup and sent a prescription for an antibiotic to my pharmacy to be filled.  She told me that, if the test on the pee indicated some different sort of infection, she would have to change my antibiotic.  It didn't.  My mom's was even easier.  I called her doctor's office telling them I suspected she might have one.  Her symptoms weren't as clear cut as mine had been.  They faxed a lab slip to the lab of our choice.  I brought her only to the lab, which is close-by and doesn't require appointments, where she peed in a cup.  A couple days later, got a call from the doc saying the lab test indicated a little bit of infection, and the sent the script to her pharmacy.  Never even had to see the doc, but she had seen him just a few weeks prior to that.  My niece went to a doc in a box for a UTI recently, too.  My impression from all this: it's pretty simple, but the results of the test would determine which antibiotic is needed.

So, instead of driving to a specialist 3 hours away, maybe go see a nearby doc in a box?  Or get a better family doctor, because that's important when you're elderly.

[NoStacheOhio]

As far as the shitty urologist.  I've gotten treated for that just by my regular doctor, as has my elderly mother just last week. Not sure why you even need a specialist, but maybe it was a more difficult case.

Not all doctors are equal, which is kind of the original point. A good local internist is a huge asset to their patients. There's also a shortage of them.

Is this some sort of super UTI or something?  Is this an extremely rural area?  I had a UTI about a month ago.  I can never see my doc, so saw her nurse practitioner.  Told her my symptoms, she had me pee in a cup and sent a prescription for an antibiotic to my pharmacy to be filled.  She told me that, if the test on the pee indicated some different sort of infection, she would have to change my antibiotic.  It didn't.  My mom's was even easier.  I called her doctor's office telling them I suspected she might have one.  Her symptoms weren't as clear cut as mine had been.  They faxed a lab slip to the lab of our choice.  I brought her only to the lab, which is close-by and doesn't require appointments, where she peed in a cup.  A couple days later, got a call from the doc saying the lab test indicated a little bit of infection, and the sent the script to her pharmacy.  Never even had to see the doc, but she had seen him just a few weeks prior to that.  My niece went to a doc in a box for a UTI recently, too.  My impression from all this: it's pretty simple, but the results of the test would determine which antibiotic is needed.

So, instead of driving to a specialist 3 hours away, maybe go see a nearby doc in a box?  Or get a better family doctor, because that's important when you're elderly.

No, but if your local doc can't fix it the first two times, then maybe try something different. Also, maybe there's another underlying problem that's leading to recurrent infections.

The bigger point isn't about UTIs, which may or not be difficult to treat depending on the specific case. It's that maybe local isn't always best, especially if you aren't getting the results you were hoping for from your local doc. Especially with more complex problems though, sometimes it makes sense to skip local. If someone is talking about cutting you open, you probably want to find a surgeon who's really good at the particular thing you need, rather than a generalist.

[uwp]

It's funny that they think we are all here sadly washing our zip-loc bags, wishing we could go on vacations.  They don't really seem to want to understand.

And even though MMM and family lived for 10 years (or whatever) on 25k/yr, it's actually impossible because he bought a car this year.

[arebelspy]

It's funny that they think we are all here sadly washing our zip-loc bags, wishing we could go on vacations.  They don't really seem to want to understand.[/url]

We all tend to project.

[Url]And even though MMM and family lived for 10 years (or whatever) on 25k/yr, it's actually impossible because he bought a car this year.

Hah!

[MauiNut]

BogleHeads are very intolerant of, and offended by, posts from heretics who dare to contradict or question their beliefs on investing.  Said posts are poof gone deleted, back to lauding the peaceful blissfulness of the Three Fund Portfolio and sentencing active investors to Mutual Fund Purgatory.

I've found MMM'ers to be much more tolerant of viewpoints that may differ from their own.  A very welcome difference.

[sol]

I've found MMM'ers to be much more tolerant of viewpoints that may differ from their own.

I find this opinion to be offensively intolerable.

[sol]

I note this community has some issues with tolerance of non-centrist ideas as well.  Maybe that is good, maybe not.

You can tolerate something without supporting it.

Wacky extremist views like the dual-momentum investing thread are very much tolerated here, but not supported.  If they were not tolerated there wouldn't be a 22 page discussion where such things were espoused over and over again.  There was vigorous debate focused on the philosophical objection to the idea, but that doesn't mean the idea wasn't tolerated.

If the thread had been deleted or excised, that would be an example of the idea not being tolerated. 

I tolerate (but do not support) people who confuse free speech with dumb speech.  Nobody is being intolerant when they disagree with you.  See the difference?  You (the generic you) get to say whatever crazy stuff you want to, because your crazy ideas are tolerated.  Then the rest of us get to make fun of you, and you have to tolerate that too.

[sol]

I think I will go back and delete all my posts

Is this the third or the fourth time you've threatened to quit the forums when someone has disagreed with you?

Look, when you post things on a public discussion forum you have to expect people to discuss them.  They're your words, so own them.  Please defend your opinions vigorously!  But maybe don't cry oppression just because not everyone gives you a +1.

[Paul der Krake]

PizzaSteve, you may think you're taking the high road here, but you and your signature are downright ridiculous. If you think someone is unfairly using your words against you, you have the choice to rebuke, or ignore, including this post. Whining and erecting fences around your posts just makes you look silly.

Now for the brutally honest answer: you don't have the authority nor the intellectual clout to dictate how forum threads work. Your "non-centrist opinions" aren't particularly ground breaking. We hope you stay, but if you don't, nobody will miss you.

[TomTX]

PizzaSteve, you may think you're taking the high road here, but you and your signature are downright ridiculous. If you think someone is unfairly using your words against you, you have the choice to rebuke, or ignore, including this post. Whining and erecting fences around your posts just makes you look silly.

++

If you want to give your opinion and refuse discussion on it, the place for that is your own blog with comments disabled. Enjoy the echo chamber.

[PizzaSteve]

i apologize for adding unproductive comments better for a personal message, so I removed them.  Best of luck to the thread.  It is probably not a well intentioned thread to begin with.  No useful advice.  BH bashing humor I dont enjoy, so best I stop reading it. Understand that niceness is not a core value of this specific web discussion forum, which is ok.  Wish it was, but that's on me.

[TomTX]

Ah, yes. The passive-aggressive not-really-an-apology snipefest.

Really showed us why you don't want responses to your posts, I suppose.

[sol]

i apologize for adding unproductive comments better for a personal message

No, your personal message to me was also ridiculous.

Look Steve, we welcome your participation here.  This a forum that invites people to express themselves, and then let's the marketplace of ideas discuss those opinions.  If you don't want to have your ideas discussed, this probably isn't the place for you to put them.

Note that this is not intolerance.  You are being invited to participate, not being censored.

[Bateaux]

I was Mustacian long before ever hearing about MMM.  Now that I'll be 50 next year I'm in transition to a Boglehead.   I went to their forum years ago and really felt inadequate with a sub 7 figures wealth.  Finding MMM and 7 figures of wealth made me pretty happy.  I see little need to go back to their forum now that I'm worthy.  I rather the folks here.  I feel more at home  going on pub crawls with hipsters drinking PBR, than some snotty club.

[boarder42]

i apologize for adding unproductive comments better for a personal message

No, your personal message to me was also ridiculous.

Look Steve, we welcome your participation here.  This a forum that invites people to express themselves, and then let's the marketplace of ideas discuss those opinions.  If you don't want to have your ideas discussed, this probably isn't the place for you to put them.

Note that this is not intolerance.  You are being invited to participate, not being censored.

Yet another victim of the pizza Steve pm. We should start a club that group is growing.

[TomTX]

I was Mustacian long before ever hearing about MMM.  Now that I'll be 50 next year I'm in transition to a Boglehead.   I went to their forum years ago and really felt inadequate with a sub 7 figures wealth.  Finding MMM and 7 figures of wealth made me pretty happy.  I see little need to go back to their forum now that I'm worthy.  I rather the folks here.  I feel more at home  going on pub crawls with hipsters drinking PBR, than some snotty club.

You have nailed what is IMO the biggest drawback of the Boglehead forums. The (very) high barrier to entry.  If your aspirations (if not actuality) aren't well into 7 figures and a $200k+ salary, you really aren't part of the "club".

[WootWoot]

I'll pop in a question here: Is the Bogleheads book worth getting, at $4.99 on Kindle? It's on special today. I'm still reading JH Collins' book.

[arebelspy]

I'll pop in a question here: Is the Bogleheads book worth getting, at $4.99 on Kindle? It's on special today. I'm still reading JH Collins' book.

If you are getting something out of Jim's book, probably, yes.

Many of us here are big fans of the Bogleheads' philosophy (and it's quite aligned with JLCollins' book).

[MrsPete]

I spend time on both sites...for different reasons...

Yeah, me too.  I'm somewhere in between but am a bit more "spendy" than the average MMMer and more poor than a typical BH.

[Morning Glory]

Oh, and if you get cancer, do you want to go to the local guy who takes Medicaid or Medicare, and do whatever procedure/drugs the government has decided to pay for?  Or do you want to do what my in-laws did and hop on a plane to the guy with the best surgical stats in the country and take his advice?

I would have no problem going to the local guy who takes Medicare/caid.  In truth, there is greatly diminishing utility in additional spending for health care interventions over the costs incurred for standard treatment from an average doctor. We don't want to believe that, because it is comforting to think we that there is a direct connection between paying more for health interventions and longer life. This is one reason why countries with socialized medicine and lower costs have just as, and often better, outcomes than the highest of high-tech American healthcare system.

Also, I seriously do not want my children to spend $180k a year to make sure I have a comfortable death. That feels like such an unbelievable waste to me. Stick me in whatever home is the cheapest and come visit me on occasion, that's all I ask for.

The places that employ some of the best surgeons in the country accept Medicare and Medicaid, including from other states. They have to in order to maintain non-profit status.