Thinking of selling my Tesla. Ashamed to drive and own.

[Paper Chaser]

I suppose I'll be a contrarian. Hold on to the car. Selling it accomplishes nothing except virtue signaling - Tesla already made the money from the sale.

This is a FIRE forum. From a FIRE perspective, you overspent on an unnecessary luxury purchase by buying precisely the Tesla that you wanted with all the bells and whistles, while the price was particularly high, and justified it by planning to keep it for a long time. Then you justified an expensive solar installation as the best way to keep the EV charged. You already had one non-Tesla EV that you recently sold at a substantial loss, do you really want to lose $30k on your other EV by owning it during its highest depreciation years? You already extended your working life by at least a year buying this car, do you want to extend your working life by an another year by selling it now?

You've been upfront with your dissatisfaction with your savings rate - this sort of behavior is the root cause. Hold on to the Tesla. In six months Musk might well have fallen from Trump's graces and be out of the political picture. If not, use the car to remind yourself not to splurge on hugely expensive items under the justification that you intend to keep it for a long time.

I bought a Tesla recently. I regret doing so for a variety of reasons. But I'm not going to sell it because of CEO political antics.

Yep. The real issue in this case is that OP made the purchase in part because of how they felt it made them appear to others, and now they're going to double down because of how they fell it's making them look to others. Maybe buying/selling expensive/resource intensive items because of how they make you look to others isn't the best approach to financial independence or environmental benefit?

[ROF Expat]

Since the term "virtue signaling" seems to be coming up (often prefaced by "pointless") I have to ask: 

What exactly is "pointless virtue signaling" and why is it a bad thing?  My sense is that it means "expressing an opinion I disagree with" or "expressing an opinion in a way that I disagree with" but maybe I'm missing something.  Is "pointless virtue signaling" different from the "free speech" that we're supposed to value? 

Help me out here.  Is it "pointless virtue signaling" when my friend wears a Cross or Star of David?  Is it pointless virtue signaling to wear an American flag lapel pin?  Is it pointless virtue signaling if my kid wears a rainbow flag pin to show support for a gay friend?  Is it pointless virtue signaling for a veteran to wear medals on a dinner jacket?  Is having a Trump-Vance or Harris-Walz bumpersticker on your car? 

Agree with them or not, they just seem like expressions of opinion or pride to me.  I personally find people who drive around with window stickers of Calvin (of Calvin and Hobbes fame) urinating on a car brand's emblem or wannabe warriors with "Punisher" skulls and "Molon Labe" and firearm manufacturer stickers all over their vehicles to be something between laughable and sad, but they're still just free speech. 

If someone is concerned that people will misunderstand their views (for driving a Tesla in this case), it doesn't seem unreasonable for them to want to clarify their views.   

[RetiredAt63]

If you think it's just a hand gesture than how to you explain his stated support of AfD? He literally visited and endorsed the existing far right party of Germany. Are you not paying attention or are you in denial?

You can ignore the hand gesture and still come to the same conclusions. He came from South Africa and is in a club of white men from South Africa that supported apartheid. This is not a logical leap here people.

His maternal grandparents moved from Canada to South Africa because of their political views. He's 3rd generation.

[classicrando]

@ROF Expat From my observations, the only difference between assessments of "pointless virtue signaling" versus "supporting America" or "go woke go broke" type behavior is the party affiliations of the commenter and the boycotter.

That being said, there are more direct action approaches that someone could take in expressing their displeasure:

Spoiler: show

Music hits me way deeper. A car to me is pretty impersonal and when I use it, I don't see or hear the engineer or CEO. It's just a tool.  But with music, I admit that it's harder to listen to a MJ song on one of my playlists and not be tempted to skip or just be a little bummed and conflicted. Same with Chuck Berry and many others. But it is next to impossible for me to care much less than I already do about the actions, thoughts, etc. of a top person at a car manufacturer. Do they make a good product or not? But again, if someone owns a product and wants to sell it, go for it.

I feel you here.  I find myself recently filtering artists out of my playlists as I learn about various shitty things they do or support.  Never meet your heroes, folks, they'll always disappoint you.

[neo von retorch]

If someone is concerned that people will misunderstand their views (for driving a Tesla in this case), it doesn't seem unreasonable for them to want to clarify their views.

All this is so good!

[Scandium]

Help me out here.  Is it "pointless virtue signaling" when my friend wears a Cross or Star of David?  Is it pointless virtue signaling to wear an American flag lapel pin?  Is it pointless virtue signaling if my kid wears a rainbow flag pin to show support for a gay friend?  Is it pointless virtue signaling for a veteran to wear medals on a dinner jacket?  Is having a Trump-Vance or Harris-Walz bumpersticker on your car? 

To be fair; yes all of those those pretty much pointless virtue signaling! Especially flags and religious symbols, close to the literal definition of virtue signals!

Having a rainbow flag, then doing nothing to stand up for a gay friend being bullied, or not engaging in politics to get pro-gay people elected; yes then its virtue signaling. Nothing wrong with it in itself, certainly better than vice-signaling. But if that's all one does it's pretty close to useless. And especially since many seem to think they don't need to do anything else. "i had a rainbow flag in front of my house for a month, I did my part..."

[VanillaGorilla]

Since the term "virtue signaling" seems to be coming up (often prefaced by "pointless") I have to ask: 

What exactly is "pointless virtue signaling" and why is it a bad thing?  My sense is that it means "expressing an opinion I disagree with" or "expressing an opinion in a way that I disagree with" but maybe I'm missing something.  Is "pointless virtue signaling" different from the "free speech" that we're supposed to value? 

Help me out here.  Is it "pointless virtue signaling" when my friend wears a Cross or Star of David?  Is it pointless virtue signaling to wear an American flag lapel pin?  Is it pointless virtue signaling if my kid wears a rainbow flag pin to show support for a gay friend?  Is it pointless virtue signaling for a veteran to wear medals on a dinner jacket?  Is having a Trump-Vance or Harris-Walz bumpersticker on your car? 

This is a nice point, and it's something to think about!

I would argue that selling a car on the used market to boycott the manufacturer after buying it new is pointless, because it doesn't hurt the manufacturer. Boycotting Tesla would involve not buying new cars - that will matter to their bottom line. Selling a used tesla and driving down the used prices doesn't matter much to the company.

I think the term "virtue signaling" refers generally to pointless behaviors - behavior that demonstrates your values to your social group of choice, but not accomplishing anything meaningful. For example, land acknowledgements strike me as virtue signaling. You demonstrate to your desired social circle that you're progressive and care about righting the wrongs of our colonial past. However, it costs you nothing and does nothing to actually benefit the people who suffered. I don't care about your land acknowledgement, I care about your supporting indigenous peoples economically and socially. If you indulge land acknowledgements but don't stop and spend money driving through the Navajo Nation, you're virtue signaling.

According to Google:

Virtue signaling is when someone expresses opinions that align with popular values to appear good, rather than to support a cause.

Selling a Tesla is virtue signaling because it doesn't matter to the bottom line, but it's highly visible. Instead of losing $30k on your Tesla maybe donate $30k to the ACLU. That's invisible, but it does matter to your cause.

[FINate]

Thoughts on this decision?

Go for it!

Not because I think everyone should sell their Tesla. While I'm not fan of Musk (even before he went nuts), I don't assume Tesla drivers are all supporters of his crazy or that they have a moral obligation to sell.

BUT, it's clear to me that you've thought about this deeply and are making a principled decision. And I'm a big believer in people living lives that are congruent with their values (caveat: as long as this a non-violent and ethical).

Will this cost you financially? Perhaps. But there is often a cost associated with doing the right thing.

Might your replacement car be less fun to drive and own? Again, you will do so knowing that you aren't compromising your values.

Will Teslastans and Trumpers judge and ridicule you for your decision? Probably. But if you live in fear of what people like this say it gives them an incredible amount of power over your life. Ignore them and do what you know is right, and this destroys their power.

Freedom is a wonderful thing--you don't need to justify your decision here or to anyone. I don't see a problem with either keeping the car or selling it. Follow your convictions and be at peace with your decision.

[merula]

There's a lot of "this won't impact Tesla, they already made their money on the sale" in this thread. This isn't quite the full picture.

I mean, it's true that Tesla already made their money, selling used doesn't directly impact them, and selling one car isn't likely to make much of a difference either way.

But imagine that twice as many Tesla owners sell their vehicles and move to non-Tesla vehicles in 2025 as compared to 2024.

That would flood the used Tesla market, which would drive prices down. Lower prices on used Teslas would not only impact the number of new Teslas bought, as some buyers would opt for a used version instead of new given enough of a price difference, but the lower resale price would drive the market price of a new Tesla down.

Nothing is about what impact we have on our own, it's about the impact we can have by working together.

[GuitarStv]

Does any rational person who has researched the "supposed" nazi salute still believe that is what he did?

I like to consider myself rational.  I absolutely believe Musk did an intentional Nazi salute.  Then he stopped, and did a second one.  Nobody watching the video can think that it was an accident or mistake.  It was very clearly deliberate.  Now the precise reason WHY he did this is up in the air.  I can think of many reasons it may have happened:
- Bad joke/trolling
- Intentionally attempting to garner or show support from hard right/racists/neo-Nazis
- Personal support / belief in / admiration for the authoritarianism and fascism that Hitler and the Nazis stood for

But it's very hard for me to take his action in the context of his support for Germany's ultranationalist hard right AfD, the ultranationalist hard right Israeli government, the hard right nationalist Reform UK party, the right wing nationalist Argentinian government of Javier Milei, and his support of both Russian and Chinese authoritarianism as anything but a full fledged signal of his affinity for authoritarianism, if not outright fascism.

[Kris]

Does any rational person who has researched the "supposed" nazi salute still believe that is what he did?

I like to consider myself rational.  I absolutely believe Musk did an intentional Nazi salute.  Then he stopped, and did a second one.  Nobody watching the video can think that it was an accident or mistake.  It was very clearly deliberate.  Now the precise reason WHY he did this is up in the air.  I can think of many reasons it may have happened:
- Bad joke/trolling
- Intentionally attempting to garner or show support from hard right/racists/neo-Nazis
- Personal support / belief in / admiration for the authoritarianism and fascism that Hitler and the Nazis stood for

But it's very hard for me to take his action in the context of his support for Germany's ultranationalist hard right AfD, the ultranationalist hard right Israeli government, the hard right nationalist Reform UK party, the right wing nationalist Argentinian government of Javier Milei, and his support of both Russian and Chinese authoritarianism as anything but a full fledged signal of his affinity for authoritarianism, if not outright fascism.

Right? The question is, how could you NOT?

Also, I have seen video of him doing a "my heart goes out to you" gesture. It is... NOT... the same gesture he did in that video.

[classicrando]

Does any rational person who has researched the "supposed" nazi salute still believe that is what he did?

I like to consider myself rational.  I absolutely believe Musk did an intentional Nazi salute.  Then he stopped, and did a second one.  Nobody watching the video can think that it was an accident or mistake.  It was very clearly deliberate.  Now the precise reason WHY he did this is up in the air.  I can think of many reasons it may have happened:
- Bad joke/trolling
- Intentionally attempting to garner or show support from hard right/racists/neo-Nazis
- Personal support / belief in / admiration for the authoritarianism and fascism that Hitler and the Nazis stood for

But it's very hard for me to take his action in the context of his support for Germany's ultranationalist hard right AfD, the ultranationalist hard right Israeli government, the hard right nationalist Reform UK party, the right wing nationalist Argentinian government of Javier Milei, and his support of both Russian and Chinese authoritarianism as anything but a full fledged signal of his affinity for authoritarianism, if not outright fascism.

“Historians have a word for Germans who joined the Nazi party, not because they hated Jews, but out of a hope for restored patriotism, or a sense of economic anxiety, or a hope to preserve their religious values, or dislike of their opponents, or raw political opportunism, or convenience, or ignorance, or greed.

That word is "Nazi." Nobody cares about their motives anymore.

They joined what they joined. They lent their support and their moral approval. And, in so doing, they bound themselves to everything that came after. Who cares any more what particular knot they used in the binding?”
― A.R. Moxon

[simonsez]

If you think it's just a hand gesture than how to you explain his stated support of AfD? He literally visited and endorsed the existing far right party of Germany. Are you not paying attention or are you in denial?

You can ignore the hand gesture and still come to the same conclusions. He came from South Africa and is in a club of white men from South Africa that supported apartheid. This is not a logical leap here people.

Of course I'm not paying attention! What do I gain? I only know about the hand gesture because I saw it mentioned here.

I'd rather focus my neurons and my time elsewhere.  YMMV

Whatever happened to the low information diet not to mention stoicism? A key aspect that attracted me to stoicism was prohairesis. Basically, you make your own reality in spite of how unfair or abhorrent things are because no one can ever take away your will.  YMMV

[Scandium]

But it's very hard for me to take his action in the context of his support for Germany's ultranationalist hard right AfD, the ultranationalist hard right Israeli government, the hard right nationalist Reform UK party, the right wing nationalist Argentinian government of Javier Milei, and his support of both Russian and Chinese authoritarianism as anything but a full fledged signal of his affinity for authoritarianism, if not outright fascism.

There will always be constant moving of the nazi-goalposts.
"he can't be a nazi, because he didn't personally build death camps and start a world war to restore the German Reich!"

[Fru-Gal]

If you think it's just a hand gesture than how to you explain his stated support of AfD? He literally visited and endorsed the existing far right party of Germany. Are you not paying attention or are you in denial?

You can ignore the hand gesture and still come to the same conclusions. He came from South Africa and is in a club of white men from South Africa that supported apartheid. This is not a logical leap here people.

Of course I'm not paying attention! What do I gain? I only know about the hand gesture because I saw it mentioned here.

I'd rather focus my neurons and my time elsewhere.  YMMV

Whatever happened to the low information diet not to mention stoicism? A key aspect that attracted me to stoicism was prohairesis. Basically, you make your own reality in spite of how unfair or abhorrent things are because no one can ever take away your will.  YMMV

Stoicism and low information diet are wonderful. What’s happening now is that important events are intruding into your low information diet, as they should.

These aren’t minor things. Our president is continuously threatening annexation of our Northern ally,  siding with Putin, and threatening Constitutional separation of powers. The richest man in the world, who previously seemed to be a mild-mannered green-energy visionary, is angrily espousing authoritarianism and acting as unelected co-president.

[GuitarStv]

If you think it's just a hand gesture than how to you explain his stated support of AfD? He literally visited and endorsed the existing far right party of Germany. Are you not paying attention or are you in denial?

You can ignore the hand gesture and still come to the same conclusions. He came from South Africa and is in a club of white men from South Africa that supported apartheid. This is not a logical leap here people.

Of course I'm not paying attention! What do I gain? I only know about the hand gesture because I saw it mentioned here.

I'd rather focus my neurons and my time elsewhere.  YMMV

Whatever happened to the low information diet not to mention stoicism? A key aspect that attracted me to stoicism was prohairesis. Basically, you make your own reality in spite of how unfair or abhorrent things are because no one can ever take away your will.  YMMV

Stoicism and low information diet are wonderful. What’s happening now is that important events are intruding into your low information diet, as they should.

These aren’t minor events. Our president is continuously threatening annexation of our Northern ally, is siding with Putin, and threatening Constitutional separation of powers. The richest man in the world, who previously seemed to be a mild-mannered green-energy visionary, is siding with authoritarianism.

Stoicism is not a shield to remain ignorant or bury your head in the sand regarding the things around you.  The Stoic concept of prohairesis is a way to control an emotional response to an external stimulus to allow a more rational (less gut instinct) way to respond to it.  That is not an acceptance of evil or things that are wrong - that would go against the fundamental virtue of justice.  Many of the best known stoics were heavily involved in politics, fighting against those they saw as immoral and bringing their view of justice to a world that they felt needed it.

[jrhampt]

And people are losing their jobs, careers, and contracts.  This is a big deal.  Every day it seems like I hear of someone else that I know IRL whose job is being impacted.  Even if I weren't paying attention to any news whatsoever, I would be finding out about these things because of direct impacts to people I know.

[JupiterGreen]

“Virtue signaling” as it is currently used is a pejorative term, full stop. But with that said, I have enjoyed reading the different takes here and it got me thinking about this topic. If the OP is seeking to practice doing the right thing then they really are working on virtue ethics (a concept that goes back to Plato) not virtue signaling (an insult that means something different). The ethics of individuals and groups evolve because we discuss them. Let’s not use the term “virtue signaling” to attempt to shut down the OP’s desires to understand themselves and their evolving conception of ethics. It is not a performance if they are willing to sell the car (and possibly at a loss) performance and self-interest being two important points that are needed for virtue signaling. Tesla/Musk may not be an easy topic for some but there is no reason to be dismissive and assume the worst of the OP.

Initially, I was on the fence about selling the Tesla because the money has already been spent, but after reading all the responses especially @merula I’ve changed my mind and I think you should sell it. Selling the Tesla will help you with your own ethics but there is also a chance it could lead to something more socially substantial. I mean don't do it for that reason alone, but it could happen that many feel the same as you. After six months of people selling their Teslas the news headline reads “glut of used Teslas saturate the market”. This would not be good for Tesla, consumers and investors make emotional decisions and if they feel the tide shifting so too will go their support. 

@jrhampt I am purposefully not paying attention to politics that much and it has trickled down to me anyway. Yes I know people losing their jobs for no good reason too, my lgbtqi, non-white, and biologically female friends lives are being impacted, I heard there is at least one states looking to get rid of no-fault divorce for crikey sake. I don't care who you are or where you live, these policies impact everyone and it is ethical to stand up against this kind of oppressive legislation not to mention the financial impact to individuals and families.

[NorCal]

“Virtue signaling” as it is currently used is a pejorative term, full stop. But with that said, I have enjoyed reading the different takes here and it got me thinking about this topic. If the OP is seeking to practice doing the right thing then they really are working on virtue ethics (a concept that goes back to Plato) not virtue signaling (an insult that means something different). The ethics of individuals and groups evolve because we discuss them. Let’s not use the term “virtue signaling” to attempt to shut down the OP’s desires to understand themselves and their evolving conception of ethics. It is not a performance if they are willing to sell the car (and possibly at a loss) performance and self-interest being two important points that are needed for virtue signaling. Tesla/Musk may not be an easy topic for some but there is no reason to be dismissive and assume the worst of the OP.

Initially, I was on the fence about selling the Tesla because the money has already been spent, but after reading all the responses especially @merula I’ve changed my mind and I think you should sell it. Selling the Tesla will help you with your own ethics but there is also a chance it could lead to something more socially substantial. I mean don't do it for that reason alone, but it could happen that many feel the same as you. After six months of people selling their Teslas the news headline reads “glut of used Teslas saturate the market”. This would not be good for Tesla, consumers and investors make emotional decisions and if they feel the tide shifting so too will go their support. 

@jrhampt I am purposefully not paying attention to politics that much and it has trickled down to me anyway. Yes I know people losing their jobs for no good reason too, my lgbtqi, non-white, and biologically female friends lives are being impacted, I heard there is at least one states looking to get rid of no-fault divorce for crikey sake. I don't care who you are or where you live, these policies impact everyone and it is ethical to stand up against this kind of oppressive legislation not to mention the financial impact to individuals and families.

I agree with the sentiment, but would propose a slightly different solution.

Calculate the rough financial loss one would take from selling the Tesla including depreciation and transaction costs.

Keep driving the Tesla, but commit to spend that amount of money on an ethical cause the OP supports.  The money is already in Cyberdouche's pockets.  Find a way to positively offset some of that damage instead of making a symbolic gesture. 

[simonsez]

I didn't add the qualifier "pointless" to virtue signaling FWIW nor do I have a problem with the concept. In fact, I enjoy hearing what people stand up for and feel the need to express themselves DUE to my very low information diet. Like, when you trust a subset of society slightly more (like this forum) than a random group of people I find at the grocery store, I appreciate what people say here. As I said, without this forum I would've never known about this gesture. It's surprising to me, the reaction on a frugality forum talking about a luxury clown car, but that doesn't mean it's silly, pointless, or wrong. Musk shenanigans obviously are highly visible to many people and also strike a nerve. 

I'm an indexer who doesn't really pay attention to what companies or company representatives do. I'd just rather read about travel, personal finance, history, music, geology, biology, astronomy, etc. in my free time rather than politics, current events, or pop culture.  If it's important enough, I'll hear about it here or from family and friends.

If people want to sell their Tesla, or no longer want to buy one, that's great. I'm a big fan of voting with your dollars.

Personally I don't watch the news with any regularity and this is about the only social media I peruse (though it's mostly anonymous and different than other sites). I'm not saying total ignorance is bliss but some of the shit people get upset about has very little impact on the day to day activities a person does. Musk could do whatever gesture and I can still go for an afternoon walk with my family and cook dinner together. And I say this as someone directly impacted by federal employment changes. I.e. a hand gesture doesn't mean much TO ME but certainly a change in OPM guidelines does. Thus, I pay attention to the latter and not the former but don't pass judgment on those that follow the news.

As for prohairesis, I don't mean it's carte blanche stoic points  to bury your head in the sand. I mean more I'm in control about what I choose to get upset by, or generally how I react to something.  E g. Musk can make a stupid gesture and even if I hear about, it doesn't require me to be upset. It's a choice. I choose to read about other's opinions and perspectives on this issue but it doesn't require me to also be upset. I refuse to let some weirdo like Musk have that level of influence in my life.

I'm here to learn and read various perspectives. Apologies to anyone who thought my intentions were trollish or mocking. Genuinely just surprised and intrigued (at a safe distance w.r.t. this particular Tesla/hand gesture issue).

[Fru-Gal]

At the scene of an accident, would you prefer people:

a) walk on by pretending nothing happened
b) become "upset"
c) do basic first responder assessment and treatment

We are at C right now.

[Rob_bob]

However, I believe there comes a time where we cannot stand by idly and not take action against evil.  I do not feel good driving a car made by a company headed by someone who thinks it is ok to perform a fascist salute.  A salute that is the symbol of those responsible for perhaps the most atrocious crime against humanity in the past century.

Thoughts on this decision?

Just about every 4th of July parade princes I have seen riding in the back of a convertible does that "salute", and they don't have Asperger's syndrome, that I know of.

[Monocle Money Mouth]

Do what you have to do to feel good with yourself. A lot of people doing something small can turn into something big.

There was a time when I wanted a Model 3, but Musk started to lose me in 2020 when he threw a temper tantrum when asked to close Tesla factories temporarily. He lost me completely in 2022 with how he handled buying Twitter and firing staff.

Musk is a piece of dog shit.

His foray into hard right politics, DOGE, and the nazi salute only solidified that opinion.

I'm avoiding any products or services tied to Musk's net worth.

• Tesla
• Twitter
• Starlink
• T-Mobile (They are starting to offer satellite phone service through Starlink)

[simonsez]

At the scene of an accident, would you prefer people:

a) walk on by pretending nothing happened
b) become "upset"
c) do basic first responder assessment and treatment

We are at C right now.

Nah, I don't share your perspective on being at C or that there was an accident.

I am guessing I view this wonderful journey called life through a different lens. My life is pretty grand all things considered (of the 110 billion humans to live, how many would I trade places with based on medicine, technology, geography, time period, etc.). I feel like I won the lottery!

I won't lie and say I've been thrilled with everything my brain has read (mainly heard secondhand) regarding what's in the news lately but again, that has such a low impact on my quality of life because it's such a small slice of the pie for how I choose to value various aspects of reality. Maybe your pie slice devoted to news and current events is larger than mine. Whatever the case, I'm still going to try to be a good husband, father, neighbor, etc. regardless of what Elon does or gestures and if those in my network also try to be their best versions, we will all continue to live the good life. My family and friends and their impact on me just make politicians hundreds of miles away pale in comparison. I lean on them in times of need and vice versa. Not sure what can take that away.

I certainly didn't vote for this mess but then again, I don't think it's fully fair to think that every Trump voter wished for things to play out the way they are. In fact, in my day to day life I don't think I know any right leaning people who would give 47 an A on their report card.  The two biggest in-your-face Trumpers I know are pissed. One is a steelworker and the other's wife works at an air force base as a civilian and things are topsy turvy.  As I've said elsewhere, if people are generally unhappy with how government is functioning right now, pendulum will swing in the other direction.

I lost my federal job and am not pleased about it but I also am a planner, have FU money, and view my own career path as one chock full of opportunities (and career doesn't mean much to me in terms of self-identity). My family will not starve, we will figure it out. Plus, whether it's 2026 or some point after that, I feel that I'd be open to being a fed again if anything "opens back up". Who the hell knows about stuff at that level. I naively assume that if someone can tear parts of it down that someone else can build it back up. All I know is politics is not for me to occupy too many of my precious neurons and time with.

I will caveat my perspective with 6+ years of infertility, many tens of thousands of my household's dollars put forth changing that, and 7 weeks ago my daughter was born perfectly healthy. So, for the time being, maybe I am in a blissful daze and that after it wears off, I'll pick my pitchfork up, but we shall see as I've never been much of a political person, at least not in a digital space (if you want to have a beverage and go deep on a subject while sitting around a fire, I'm your Huckleberry). Summer is around the corner and I can't wait to do all of the things involving sunshine and water features with her.

Good luck with your perspective, may it serve you well.

[Fru-Gal]

Congratulations on your baby girl! Of course you are in a wonderful daze!

I can't speak for others but I'm not upset either, merely pragmatic and aware. The funny thing is, I am the most optimistic, solution-oriented, positive-psychology-spouting, belief-challenging person I know -- so much so, that I disguise that fact most of the time as it's fairly off-putting.

Your response shows me why. Genuinely, I mean no offense. I sound like you 200% of the time when calming my family and friends down these days.

[Cranky]

I’m in a Tesla heavy area, and I’m seeing a lot of bumper stickers saying “I didn’t know he was a Nazi when I bought this!”

I don’t think selling the car accomplishes anything unless you give the money away, but it certainly would be embarrassing to drive one.

[2Birds1Stone]

You could have this made into a vinyl wrap slapped on the hood until you sell it.......

[SuperNintendo Chalmers]

Personally, if I owned a Tesla, there is no way in hell I would keep it or ever drive it.  I'd get it out, no matter what the loss. 

Even if there is only a minute chance that continuing to drive a car associated with Musk incrementally normalizes what is going on right now, I want nothing to do with that. 

[EliteZags]

wait wait his is a group bit that everyone is in on right? there's no way this community could have this many ignorant conspiracy theorist nutjobs that actually believe that was an intentional "facist salute", that would be truly sad and pathetic

[Herbert Derp]

One thing that I think is very interesting to point out is that Ford and VW are both family businesses, controlled by families with strong links to the Nazis. Especially VW.

Henry Ford supported the Nazis and Ferdinand Porsche was a Nazi engineering industrialist who founded Porsche and was heavily involved in both Porsche and VW. He even built military vehicles for the Nazis such as heavy tanks.

VW was founded by the Nazis as a state run enterprise. They used Jewish slave labor in their Nazi factories. VW operated four concentration camps and eight forced-labor camps on its property. At one point, 80% of VW’s workforce was slave labor.

To this day, Henry Ford and Ferdinand Porsche’s direct descendants retain majority control over Ford and VW. So to put it bluntly, Ford was founded by a Nazi supporter, and to this day is controlled by said Nazi supporter’s family, and VW was founded by Nazis and to this day is controlled by the same (former) Nazi family who built their fortune from a Nazi enterprise that used Jewish slave labor in Nazi Germany.

So it’s not as simple as saying the Nazis who founded Ford and VW are all dead. Their families are still alive to this day and still have direct control over those two companies.

Every time you drive a VW, you are supporting the Porsche family, who to this day have clung on to their ill-gotten gains from the Nazi era. The Porsche family is the 7th richest family of Germany with an estimated net worth of 66.5 billion euros. Their family business and family fortune was literally built by the Nazis using Jewish slave labor in concentration camps. The Nazi tanks they built helped carry out the Blitzkrieg. Do these facts make anyone here want to sell their VW or Porsche?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche%E2%80%93Pi%C3%ABch_family

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Porsche

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/volkswagen-1

[GuitarStv]

One thing that I think is very interesting to point out is that Ford and VW are both family businesses, controlled by families with strong links to the Nazis. Especially VW.

Henry Ford supported the Nazis and Ferdinand Porsche was a Nazi engineering industrialist who founded Porsche and was heavily involved in both Porsche and VW. He even built military vehicles for the Nazis such as heavy tanks.

VW was founded by the Nazis as a state run enterprise. They used Jewish slave labor in their Nazi factories. VW operated four concentration camps and eight forced-labor camps on its property. At one point, 80% of VW’s workforce was slave labor.

To this day, Henry Ford and Ferdinand Porsche’s direct descendants retain majority control over Ford and VW. So to put it bluntly, Ford was founded by a Nazi supporter, and to this day is controlled by said Nazi supporter’s family, and VW was founded by Nazis and to this day is controlled by the same (former) Nazi family who built their fortune from a Nazi enterprise that used Jewish slave labor in Nazi Germany.

So it’s not as simple as saying the Nazis who founded Ford and VW are all dead. Their families are still alive to this day and still have direct control over those two companies.

Every time you drive a VW, you are supporting the Porsche family, who to this day have clung on to their ill-gotten gains from the Nazi era. The Porsche family is the 7th richest family of Germany with an estimated net worth of 66.5 billion euros. Their family business and family fortune was literally built by the Nazis using Jewish slave labor in concentration camps. The Nazi tanks they built helped carry out the Blitzkrieg. Do these facts make anyone here want to sell their VW or Porsche?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche%E2%80%93Pi%C3%ABch_family

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Porsche

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/volkswagen-1

This is true, but not exactly the same situation.

How would you feel about owning a Volkswagen while the company was using concentration camps to make it's vehicles?  Probably worse than buying one today, long after the company has apologized and attempted to make amends through donations, transparency, support for Holocaust survivors, etc.  How would you feel about owning a Ford if Henry Ford was still alive and claiming that a vast Jewish conspiracy was infecting America?  Probably worse than buying one today, long after his death (and long after his 1927 public apology and admission of grave error/mistake made).

Those are both rather different than publicly driving around in a vehicle today that financially supports Elon Musk.  An unelected rich man who is currently illegally dismantling the US government, causing hardship for millions of poor people around the world, and supporting fascist/authoritarian parties in multiple different countries.  Maybe a few dozen years after Musk sees the error of his ways, apologizes, and provides financial aid for the great many people he is currently hurting things will look different for Tesla.  But right now, it's a shitty company associated with a shitty guy doing shitty things.

[simonsez]

Congratulations on your baby girl! Of course you are in a wonderful daze!

I can't speak for others but I'm not upset either, merely pragmatic and aware. The funny thing is, I am the most optimistic, solution-oriented, positive-psychology-spouting, belief-challenging person I know -- so much so, that I disguise that fact most of the time as it's fairly off-putting.

Your response shows me why. Genuinely, I mean no offense. I sound like you 200% of the time when calming my family and friends down these days.

Thanks!

Like I said, I do appreciate getting a pulse on what is happening (since I'm usually in the dark) through a MMM forum filter or people I see in person.  I just heard about the effects of NIH grants being pulled in WA. The more we talk to our neighbors, friends, and family about what is really happening breaks down barriers since regardless of beliefs, most Americans want to live in a nice place. There are also many decisions that may not be obvious to many of us or simply don't impact us in a direct way. Thus, it can be hard to know if something is worth knowing more about since there is a finite amount of attention that can be paid to these largely external circles. E.g. People dumping Teslas, I'd never know that otherwise. It's nice that information and communication can flow so quickly. In that sense, thank goodness because I think powers at be can't get away with as much, or at least for not as long compared to before the Information Age, at least in this country. Reading recent stories about al-Assad and his wife and their impact on Syrians for decades, like there isn't adequate language to describe those horrors and level of unfairness. Americans like to vent and it's hard coded into our society's fabric. Thus, I'm bullish if Musk or Trump go too far for too long, Americans will not tolerate it and they'll be gone.

[Scandium]

One thing that I think is very interesting to point out is that Ford and VW are both family businesses, controlled by families with strong links to the Nazis. Especially VW.

Henry Ford supported the Nazis and Ferdinand Porsche was a Nazi engineering industrialist who founded Porsche and was heavily involved in both Porsche and VW. He even built military vehicles for the Nazis such as heavy tanks.

VW was founded by the Nazis as a state run enterprise. They used Jewish slave labor in their Nazi factories. VW operated four concentration camps and eight forced-labor camps on its property. At one point, 80% of VW’s workforce was slave labor.

To this day, Henry Ford and Ferdinand Porsche’s direct descendants retain majority control over Ford and VW. So to put it bluntly, Ford was founded by a Nazi supporter, and to this day is controlled by said Nazi supporter’s family, and VW was founded by Nazis and to this day is controlled by the same (former) Nazi family who built their fortune from a Nazi enterprise that used Jewish slave labor in Nazi Germany.

So it’s not as simple as saying the Nazis who founded Ford and VW are all dead. Their families are still alive to this day and still have direct control over those two companies.

Every time you drive a VW, you are supporting the Porsche family, who to this day have clung on to their ill-gotten gains from the Nazi era. The Porsche family is the 7th richest family of Germany with an estimated net worth of 66.5 billion euros. Their family business and family fortune was literally built by the Nazis using Jewish slave labor in concentration camps. The Nazi tanks they built helped carry out the Blitzkrieg. Do these facts make anyone here want to sell their VW or Porsche?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche%E2%80%93Pi%C3%ABch_family

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Porsche

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/volkswagen-1

I must have missed where you show that these family members currently voice support for nazi ideas, and that they are using their wealth (largely derived from said car company) and influence to actively dismantling democracy on a day by day basis? Where is that?

And are we supposed to "punish" the children for the sins of the parents, or great-great parents? How far back should we go? As a white european I've benefitted from the crusades, should I feel ashamed and give all my un-earned, ill-gotten wealth to the Persians?

[use2betrix]

Let’s be up in arms about Musk, while we have homes filled with, and continue to buy, products that were sourced through forced child labor.

[GuitarStv]

Let’s be up in arms about Musk, while we have homes filled with, and continue to buy, products that were sourced through forced child labor.

Or we could be up in arms about Musk and also do our best to avoid products produced via forced labour.  Fortunately, there's a handy list to consult:

https://www.dol.gov/agencies/ilab/reports/child-labor/list-of-goods

[MaybeBabyMustache]

wait wait his is a group bit that everyone is in on right? there's no way this community could have this many ignorant conspiracy theorist nutjobs that actually believe that was an intentional "facist salute", that would be truly sad and pathetic

It's not just about the action that occurred, and whether it was a fascist salute. If it wasn't intended to be one, the logical thing to do would for him to have corrected that perception with a, "hey, I can see how it could come across that way, but obviously not my intention as I don't support Nazi activity and am not a Nazi." He didn't do that. He also supports the far right activities in Germany (AFD).

Do you see how those two things together, in combination with the "salute" lead people to understand it for what it appears to be? A demonstration of support for Nazis?

[Telecaster]

So it’s not as simple as saying the Nazis who founded Ford and VW are all dead. Their families are still alive to this day and still have direct control over those two companies.

It is that simple, unless you believe the sins of the parents carry down to the children.   I believe it is more moral to judge people by their own actions, instead of by the actions of their parents or grandparents.   

[Scandium]

Let’s be up in arms about Musk, while we have homes filled with, and continue to buy, products that were sourced through forced child labor.

Or we could be up in arms about Musk and also do our best to avoid products produced via forced labour.  Fortunately, there's a handy list to consult:

https://www.dol.gov/agencies/ilab/reports/child-labor/list-of-goods

Helpful list. Avoid "lithium ion batteries" and "cotton" from China.. Tough one.

[GuitarStv]

Let’s be up in arms about Musk, while we have homes filled with, and continue to buy, products that were sourced through forced child labor.

Or we could be up in arms about Musk and also do our best to avoid products produced via forced labour.  Fortunately, there's a handy list to consult:

https://www.dol.gov/agencies/ilab/reports/child-labor/list-of-goods

Helpful list. Avoid "lithium ion batteries" and "cotton" from China.. Tough one.

Yeah, there are a few things that I haven't figured out how to cut out completely.  But you do what you can - it's never going to be perfect, hopefully will be good enough.

[spartana]

So it’s not as simple as saying the Nazis who founded Ford and VW are all dead. Their families are still alive to this day and still have direct control over those two companies.

It is that simple, unless you believe the sins of the parents carry down to the children.   I believe it is more moral to judge people by their own actions, instead of by the actions of their parents or grandparents.   

And let's not forget Mercedes-Benz. They refigured their vehicle for senior members of the Nazi party (Hitler, Goring, et al) and VW went to the common folk.

As the grand daughter of a Nazi solider who's mom was raised in a refugee camp (at the old Dachau concentration camp) in post WWII Germany,  I sure as hell hope no one would consider me, or any company holdings my grandparent had, as Nazi supporters. I have a lot of Hitler and Nazi stuff (money, stamps, etc) at my house waiting to be unloaded (burn it?) and fall as far from my grandparents and my mom's ideology as possible. Elon Musk isn't from a Nazi family business. He's a living breathing far right businessman maybe Nazi supporter who should be demonized. Not his children or family members even if they keep Tesla, Starlink, X alive.

[Turtle]

wait wait his is a group bit that everyone is in on right? there's no way this community could have this many ignorant conspiracy theorist nutjobs that actually believe that was an intentional "facist salute", that would be truly sad and pathetic

It's not just about the action that occurred, and whether it was a fascist salute. If it wasn't intended to be one, the logical thing to do would for him to have corrected that perception with a, "hey, I can see how it could come across that way, but obviously not my intention as I don't support Nazi activity and am not a Nazi." He didn't do that. He also supports the far right activities in Germany (AFD).

Do you see how those two things together, in combination with the "salute" lead people to understand it for what it appears to be? A demonstration of support for Nazis?

Excellent point. 

Also autistic here, and my opinion is that was deliberately awkward enough to play both sides at once.  Plausible deniability plus support of the nazi sympathizers.  Triple bonus points because he can claim to “own the libs” and get bully boy credit with Trump’s base.

I’ve never met him personally, but I know folks who have.  He’s an odd duck, but not a stupid one. He knew exactly what he was doing.

[Herbert Derp]

It is that simple, unless you believe the sins of the parents carry down to the children.   I believe it is more moral to judge people by their own actions, instead of by the actions of their parents or grandparents.   

As the grand daughter of a Nazi solider who's mom was raised in a refugee camp (at the old Dachau concentration camp) in post WWII Germany,  I sure as hell hope no one would consider me, or any company holdings my grandparent had, as Nazi supporters. I have a lot of Hitler and Nazi stuff (money, stamps, etc) at my house waiting to be unloaded (burn it?) and fall as far from my grandparents and my mom's ideology as possible.

It’s not solely about the sins of the parents. It’s that the Porsche family has held on to the Nazi business created by their Nazi ancestor. VW and Porsche were Nazi businesses created by Nazis, for Nazis, and they built their cars in death camps and built tanks for the Blitzkrieg. The same former Nazi family who started that Nazi business still retains full control of the company, with iron-clad voting rights.

It’s like if your Nazi grandfather murdered some Jews and stole artwork out of their house, and although you have issued an apology, you still have the paintings hanging prominently on your wall and refuse to take them down. Is that ok?

[GuitarStv]

It is that simple, unless you believe the sins of the parents carry down to the children.   I believe it is more moral to judge people by their own actions, instead of by the actions of their parents or grandparents.   

As the grand daughter of a Nazi solider who's mom was raised in a refugee camp (at the old Dachau concentration camp) in post WWII Germany,  I sure as hell hope no one would consider me, or any company holdings my grandparent had, as Nazi supporters. I have a lot of Hitler and Nazi stuff (money, stamps, etc) at my house waiting to be unloaded (burn it?) and fall as far from my grandparents and my mom's ideology as possible.

It’s not solely about the sins of the parents. It’s that the Porsche family has held on to the Nazi business created by their Nazi ancestor. VW and Porsche were Nazi businesses created by Nazis, for Nazis, and they built their cars in death camps and built tanks for the Blitzkrieg. The same former Nazi family who started that Nazi business still retains full control of the company, with iron-clad voting rights.

It’s like if your Nazi grandfather murdered some Jews and stole artwork out of their house, and although you have issued an apology, you still have the paintings hanging prominently on your wall and refuse to take them down. Is that ok?

Imagine if your country was founded on the blood from the genocide of the native peoples who lived there before, and you not only refuse to give their land back but continue to pretend that you have sovereignty over it.  Is that OK?

[darkadams00]

I live in the second-most blue voting city in my state and work for a global software consulting firm. I haven't pulled into a parking lot in five states in the last 2 years that has a higher percentage of Teslas than the lot that surrounds my building and the other buildings adjacent to mine. If my colleagues all traded out their Teslas next week, I could probably buy one the week afterwards as cheap as the electric bike I bought 2 years ago (not that I'm interested). Hopefully everyone isn't basing $50K+ car purchases on a cult of personality. On average, I doubt that's optimal in the long run. 

[Telecaster]

It’s not solely about the sins of the parents. It’s that the Porsche family has held on to the Nazi business created by their Nazi ancestor. VW and Porsche were Nazi businesses created by Nazis, for Nazis, and they built their cars in death camps and built tanks for the Blitzkrieg. The same former Nazi family who started that Nazi business still retains full control of the company, with iron-clad voting rights.

It’s like if your Nazi grandfather murdered some Jews and stole artwork out of their house, and although you have issued an apology, you still have the paintings hanging prominently on your wall and refuse to take them down. Is that ok?

That's not a great analogy.  The Porsche company of today was started from scratch post-war in Austria and initially was a vehicle repair business. 

Post-war Volkswagen was owned by West German government for decades (the government is still a major owner).  The Porsche family didn't buy in until fairly recently (post 2000).

It is more complicated than that, but the story isn't like you describe. 

[Herbert Derp]

That's not a great analogy.  The Porsche company of today was started from scratch post-war in Austria and initially was a vehicle repair business. 

Post-war Volkswagen was owned by West German government for decades (the government is still a major owner).  The Porsche family didn't buy in until fairly recently (post 2000).

It is more complicated than that, but the story isn't like you describe.

I dunno. When I go to Wikipedia it clearly states that Porsche was founded in 1931 by Ferdinand Porsche, a Nazi. It is true that they started out as consultants who designed vehicles for other companies, such as the iconic Volkswagen Beetle, Volkswagen’s first car. After the war, while Ferdinand Porsche was in prison for his Nazi crimes, his son took over the company and started manufacturing cars. But Ferdinand was released after just two years or so and helped his son with the company until he died of a stroke shortly afterwards.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche

Ferdinand Porsche was heavily involved in VW from the very beginning. He designed the Volkswagen Beetle under the personal direction of Adolf Hitler. He also oversaw the construction of the original Volkswagen factory in Wolfsburg, with his son-in-law Anton Piech acting as factory manager.

The Porsche website clearly states that the Porsche family has always been involved with Porsche and has been associated with VW from the very beginning of that company, which they later bought out.

https://www.porsche.com/stories/mobility/who-owns-porsche/

[JupiterGreen]

This thread is about Elon Musk and Tesla. Musk has been making US policy decisions. Lots of companies are bad, but their CEOs are not standing next to our POTUS making direct decisions that negatively impact the lives of US citizens. The primary alarm is about democracy and the future of the US.

[GuitarStv]

This thread is about Elon Musk and Tesla. Musk has been making US policy decisions. Lots of companies are bad, but their CEOs are not standing next to our POTUS making direct decisions that negatively impact the lives of US citizens. The primary alarm is about democracy and the future of the US.

Agreed.  Whataboutisms are being used to draw false equivalents to justify or OK support of Musk.

[mizzourah2006]

I'm pretty surprised this thread has made it two pages. I bought a Model Y 2 years ago after someone totaled my other car. It's an extremely efficient and good car, especially for the money today. Even Toyota Rav4s are in the mid 30s and with the federal rebate I got mine for low 40s. I didn't care about Musk before when he was an extreme liberal and I don't really care about him now that he appears to be an extreme right winger. I have no intentions to take a huge loss on a car that gets me from point A to point B to externally validate to others what they believe are my values.

I find it kind of funny that a forum like this focused on efficiency and frugality where there are several face punching threads for people even buying cars over $30k when all a car is a method of transportation, now also see a car as a poster for all of your values and beliefs.

So, is a car a method of transportation or is it a poster advocating your values and beliefs? I think the people that drive Mercedes and BMWs would agree that a car is more than just a form of transportation, it's a way to show others who you are as a person. So maybe today's MMM members have come full circle and share the same belief?

[NorCal]

That's not a great analogy.  The Porsche company of today was started from scratch post-war in Austria and initially was a vehicle repair business. 

Post-war Volkswagen was owned by West German government for decades (the government is still a major owner).  The Porsche family didn't buy in until fairly recently (post 2000).

It is more complicated than that, but the story isn't like you describe.

I dunno. When I go to Wikipedia it clearly states that Porsche was founded in 1931 by Ferdinand Porsche, a Nazi. It is true that they started out as consultants who designed vehicles for other companies, such as the iconic Volkswagen Beetle, Volkswagen’s first car. After the war, while Ferdinand Porsche was in prison for his Nazi crimes, his son took over the company and started manufacturing cars. But Ferdinand was released after just two years or so and helped his son with the company until he died of a stroke shortly afterwards.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche

Ferdinand Porsche was heavily involved in VW from the very beginning. He designed the Volkswagen Beetle under the personal direction of Adolf Hitler. He also oversaw the construction of the original Volkswagen factory in Wolfsburg, with his son-in-law Anton Piech acting as factory manager.

The Porsche website clearly states that the Porsche family has always been involved with Porsche and has been associated with VW from the very beginning of that company, which they later bought out.

https://www.porsche.com/stories/mobility/who-owns-porsche/

There's a WORLD of difference comparing a modern company with dispersed control to Tesla, even if that company has done bad things in the past.

Any German company that's been around since before 1945 has a connection to Nazi's.  Any Japanese company that existed before 1945 had a connection to the Empire of Japan.  Mitsubishi's past isn't great.

A number of US companies can be traced to some pretty horrific practices.  Chiquita overthrew the government of Guatamala, the predecessors of Exxon were linked to the 1953 coup in Iran, and Hershey and Coca-Cola were associated with some pretty bad practices in Latin America in the 1970's and 1980's.  Also look at the history of Dole in Hawaii. 

Also, screw Nestle.

If we're making ethical decisions on consumption, actions from multiple generations ago don't feel as relevant as the here-and-now.  I'll probably develop a more thoughtful framework about it over time, but I'll start with:

1.  Is the company structured in such a way where corporate governance keeps business behavior roughly inline with modern ethics and standards of behavior?
2.  Is the company structured in a way to primary benefit a small number of beneficiaries from the profits or stock price of the company?  Or are the benefits dispersed?
3.  If there are concentrated beneficiaries, are my differences of opinions with that group policy differences where I can respect their opinions, but come to a different conclusion?  Or do they have fundamentally different core values that I want nothing to do with?