You bought the car in good faith. Getting rid of it doesn't really take anything away from Musk or Tesla, it just means someone else pays Tesla for maintenance/repair and hands you a depreciation loss earlier than you planned.
Personally, I'd put a couple of bumper stickers on it to make your position clear and keep driving it. If your conscience will bother you, you could either sell the car or keep it and convert the depreciation loss you avoid into a donation to a group that is countering some of Musk's more egregious actions.
Every gas car coming off the assembly line creates a ~$45k revenue stream for the oil & gas companies that now effectively own the EPA and DOE. I would rather take a financial hit on a car than to continue contributing to that revenue stream.
I'll also never own a gas car again. Every gas car coming off the assembly line creates a ~$45k revenue stream for the oil & gas companies that now effectively own the EPA and DOE. I would rather take a financial hit on a car than to continue contributing to that revenue stream.
I'll also never own a gas car again. Every gas car coming off the assembly line creates a ~$45k revenue stream for the oil & gas companies that now effectively own the EPA and DOE. I would rather take a financial hit on a car than to continue contributing to that revenue stream.
How does this math work? $45k at $3.5/gallon is almost 13,000 gallons. At 35 mpg that's 450,000 miles I don't think most cars drive that far? At best half that. (not to mention that profit is ofc way less than revenue)
I'll also never own a gas car again. Every gas car coming off the assembly line creates a ~$45k revenue stream for the oil & gas companies that now effectively own the EPA and DOE. I would rather take a financial hit on a car than to continue contributing to that revenue stream.
How does this math work? $45k at $3.5/gallon is almost 13,000 gallons. At 35 mpg that's 450,000 miles I don't think most cars drive that far? At best half that. (not to mention that profit is ofc way less than revenue)
aren't there a lot of subsidies to gas and oil to keep the price to consumers lower?
I'll also never own a gas car again. Every gas car coming off the assembly line creates a ~$45k revenue stream for the oil & gas companies that now effectively own the EPA and DOE. I would rather take a financial hit on a car than to continue contributing to that revenue stream.
How does this math work? $45k at $3.5/gallon is almost 13,000 gallons. At 35 mpg that's 450,000 miles I don't think most cars drive that far? At best half that. (not to mention that profit is ofc way less than revenue)
aren't there a lot of subsidies to gas and oil to keep the price to consumers lower?
One of the reasons to pursue FIRE is to have options. Options to fix mistakes, to take chances, to start again, to take a stand, to do good, to help someone or something.+1. Well said.
Is money really more important than your conscience?
Sell your cars, ride a bike. Join the cool kids' club.
This is why nobody takes liberals seriously anymore when they claim racism. Now it's ok they're "racist" but is it actually racism or like the time the socially awkward aspergers Elon made a nazi salute - even though he's never said or done anything else to suggest he's racist.
This is why nobody takes liberals seriously anymore when they claim racism. Now it's ok they're "racist" but is it actually racism or like the time the socially awkward aspergers Elon made a nazi salute - even though he's never said or done anything else to suggest he's racist.
This is why no one takes conservatives seriously anymore.
The road to fascism is paved with people saying everyone is overreacting.
Any Ford owners on this forum? Henry Ford published antisemitic newspaper articles well after the brand was established. Quite a step up from a hand gesture.
Any Ford owners on this forum? Henry Ford published antisemitic newspaper articles well after the brand was established. Quite a step up from a hand gesture.
I suppose I'll be a contrarian. Hold on to the car. Selling it accomplishes nothing except virtue signaling - Tesla already made the money from the sale.
This is a FIRE forum. From a FIRE perspective, you overspent on an unnecessary luxury purchase by buying precisely the Tesla that you wanted with all the bells and whistles, while the price was particularly high, and justified it by planning to keep it for a long time. Then you justified an expensive solar installation as the best way to keep the EV charged. You already had one non-Tesla EV that you recently sold at a substantial loss, do you really want to lose $30k on your other EV by owning it during its highest depreciation years? You already extended your working life by at least a year buying this car, do you want to extend your working life by an another year by selling it now?
You've been upfront with your dissatisfaction with your savings rate - this sort of behavior is the root cause. Hold on to the Tesla. In six months Musk might well have fallen from Trump's graces and be out of the political picture. If not, use the car to remind yourself not to splurge on hugely expensive items under the justification that you intend to keep it for a long time.
I bought a Tesla recently. I regret doing so for a variety of reasons. But I'm not going to sell it because of CEO political antics.
If you think it's just a hand gesture than how to you explain his stated support of AfD? He literally visited and endorsed the existing far right party of Germany. Are you not paying attention or are you in denial?
You can ignore the hand gesture and still come to the same conclusions. He came from South Africa and is in a club of white men from South Africa that supported apartheid. This is not a logical leap here people.
Music hits me way deeper. A car to me is pretty impersonal and when I use it, I don't see or hear the engineer or CEO. It's just a tool. But with music, I admit that it's harder to listen to a MJ song on one of my playlists and not be tempted to skip or just be a little bummed and conflicted. Same with Chuck Berry and many others. But it is next to impossible for me to care much less than I already do about the actions, thoughts, etc. of a top person at a car manufacturer. Do they make a good product or not? But again, if someone owns a product and wants to sell it, go for it.
If someone is concerned that people will misunderstand their views (for driving a Tesla in this case), it doesn't seem unreasonable for them to want to clarify their views.
Help me out here. Is it "pointless virtue signaling" when my friend wears a Cross or Star of David? Is it pointless virtue signaling to wear an American flag lapel pin? Is it pointless virtue signaling if my kid wears a rainbow flag pin to show support for a gay friend? Is it pointless virtue signaling for a veteran to wear medals on a dinner jacket? Is having a Trump-Vance or Harris-Walz bumpersticker on your car?
Since the term "virtue signaling" seems to be coming up (often prefaced by "pointless") I have to ask:This is a nice point, and it's something to think about!
What exactly is "pointless virtue signaling" and why is it a bad thing? My sense is that it means "expressing an opinion I disagree with" or "expressing an opinion in a way that I disagree with" but maybe I'm missing something. Is "pointless virtue signaling" different from the "free speech" that we're supposed to value?
Help me out here. Is it "pointless virtue signaling" when my friend wears a Cross or Star of David? Is it pointless virtue signaling to wear an American flag lapel pin? Is it pointless virtue signaling if my kid wears a rainbow flag pin to show support for a gay friend? Is it pointless virtue signaling for a veteran to wear medals on a dinner jacket? Is having a Trump-Vance or Harris-Walz bumpersticker on your car?
Virtue signaling is when someone expresses opinions that align with popular values to appear good, rather than to support a cause.
Thoughts on this decision?
Does any rational person who has researched the "supposed" nazi salute still believe that is what he did?
Does any rational person who has researched the "supposed" nazi salute still believe that is what he did?
I like to consider myself rational. I absolutely believe Musk did an intentional Nazi salute. Then he stopped, and did a second one. Nobody watching the video can think that it was an accident or mistake. It was very clearly deliberate. Now the precise reason WHY he did this is up in the air. I can think of many reasons it may have happened:
- Bad joke/trolling
- Intentionally attempting to garner or show support from hard right/racists/neo-Nazis
- Personal support / belief in / admiration for the authoritarianism and fascism that Hitler and the Nazis stood for
But it's very hard for me to take his action in the context of his support for Germany's ultranationalist hard right AfD, the ultranationalist hard right Israeli government, the hard right nationalist Reform UK party, the right wing nationalist Argentinian government of Javier Milei, and his support of both Russian and Chinese authoritarianism as anything but a full fledged signal of his affinity for authoritarianism, if not outright fascism.
Does any rational person who has researched the "supposed" nazi salute still believe that is what he did?
I like to consider myself rational. I absolutely believe Musk did an intentional Nazi salute. Then he stopped, and did a second one. Nobody watching the video can think that it was an accident or mistake. It was very clearly deliberate. Now the precise reason WHY he did this is up in the air. I can think of many reasons it may have happened:
- Bad joke/trolling
- Intentionally attempting to garner or show support from hard right/racists/neo-Nazis
- Personal support / belief in / admiration for the authoritarianism and fascism that Hitler and the Nazis stood for
But it's very hard for me to take his action in the context of his support for Germany's ultranationalist hard right AfD, the ultranationalist hard right Israeli government, the hard right nationalist Reform UK party, the right wing nationalist Argentinian government of Javier Milei, and his support of both Russian and Chinese authoritarianism as anything but a full fledged signal of his affinity for authoritarianism, if not outright fascism.
If you think it's just a hand gesture than how to you explain his stated support of AfD? He literally visited and endorsed the existing far right party of Germany. Are you not paying attention or are you in denial?Of course I'm not paying attention! What do I gain? I only know about the hand gesture because I saw it mentioned here.
You can ignore the hand gesture and still come to the same conclusions. He came from South Africa and is in a club of white men from South Africa that supported apartheid. This is not a logical leap here people.
But it's very hard for me to take his action in the context of his support for Germany's ultranationalist hard right AfD, the ultranationalist hard right Israeli government, the hard right nationalist Reform UK party, the right wing nationalist Argentinian government of Javier Milei, and his support of both Russian and Chinese authoritarianism as anything but a full fledged signal of his affinity for authoritarianism, if not outright fascism.
If you think it's just a hand gesture than how to you explain his stated support of AfD? He literally visited and endorsed the existing far right party of Germany. Are you not paying attention or are you in denial?Of course I'm not paying attention! What do I gain? I only know about the hand gesture because I saw it mentioned here.
You can ignore the hand gesture and still come to the same conclusions. He came from South Africa and is in a club of white men from South Africa that supported apartheid. This is not a logical leap here people.
I'd rather focus my neurons and my time elsewhere. YMMV
Whatever happened to the low information diet not to mention stoicism? A key aspect that attracted me to stoicism was prohairesis. Basically, you make your own reality in spite of how unfair or abhorrent things are because no one can ever take away your will. YMMV
If you think it's just a hand gesture than how to you explain his stated support of AfD? He literally visited and endorsed the existing far right party of Germany. Are you not paying attention or are you in denial?Of course I'm not paying attention! What do I gain? I only know about the hand gesture because I saw it mentioned here.
You can ignore the hand gesture and still come to the same conclusions. He came from South Africa and is in a club of white men from South Africa that supported apartheid. This is not a logical leap here people.
I'd rather focus my neurons and my time elsewhere. YMMV
Whatever happened to the low information diet not to mention stoicism? A key aspect that attracted me to stoicism was prohairesis. Basically, you make your own reality in spite of how unfair or abhorrent things are because no one can ever take away your will. YMMV
Stoicism and low information diet are wonderful. What’s happening now is that important events are intruding into your low information diet, as they should.
These aren’t minor events. Our president is continuously threatening annexation of our Northern ally, is siding with Putin, and threatening Constitutional separation of powers. The richest man in the world, who previously seemed to be a mild-mannered green-energy visionary, is siding with authoritarianism.
“Virtue signaling” as it is currently used is a pejorative term, full stop. But with that said, I have enjoyed reading the different takes here and it got me thinking about this topic. If the OP is seeking to practice doing the right thing then they really are working on virtue ethics (a concept that goes back to Plato) not virtue signaling (an insult that means something different). The ethics of individuals and groups evolve because we discuss them. Let’s not use the term “virtue signaling” to attempt to shut down the OP’s desires to understand themselves and their evolving conception of ethics. It is not a performance if they are willing to sell the car (and possibly at a loss) performance and self-interest being two important points that are needed for virtue signaling. Tesla/Musk may not be an easy topic for some but there is no reason to be dismissive and assume the worst of the OP.
Initially, I was on the fence about selling the Tesla because the money has already been spent, but after reading all the responses especially @merula I’ve changed my mind and I think you should sell it. Selling the Tesla will help you with your own ethics but there is also a chance it could lead to something more socially substantial. I mean don't do it for that reason alone, but it could happen that many feel the same as you. After six months of people selling their Teslas the news headline reads “glut of used Teslas saturate the market”. This would not be good for Tesla, consumers and investors make emotional decisions and if they feel the tide shifting so too will go their support.
@jrhampt I am purposefully not paying attention to politics that much and it has trickled down to me anyway. Yes I know people losing their jobs for no good reason too, my lgbtqi, non-white, and biologically female friends lives are being impacted, I heard there is at least one states looking to get rid of no-fault divorce for crikey sake. I don't care who you are or where you live, these policies impact everyone and it is ethical to stand up against this kind of oppressive legislation not to mention the financial impact to individuals and families.
However, I believe there comes a time where we cannot stand by idly and not take action against evil. I do not feel good driving a car made by a company headed by someone who thinks it is ok to perform a fascist salute. A salute that is the symbol of those responsible for perhaps the most atrocious crime against humanity in the past century.
Thoughts on this decision?
At the scene of an accident, would you prefer people:Nah, I don't share your perspective on being at C or that there was an accident.
a) walk on by pretending nothing happened
b) become "upset"
c) do basic first responder assessment and treatment
We are at C right now.
One thing that I think is very interesting to point out is that Ford and VW are both family businesses, controlled by families with strong links to the Nazis. Especially VW.
Henry Ford supported the Nazis and Ferdinand Porsche was a Nazi engineering industrialist who founded Porsche and was heavily involved in both Porsche and VW. He even built military vehicles for the Nazis such as heavy tanks.
VW was founded by the Nazis as a state run enterprise. They used Jewish slave labor in their Nazi factories. VW operated four concentration camps and eight forced-labor camps on its property. At one point, 80% of VW’s workforce was slave labor.
To this day, Henry Ford and Ferdinand Porsche’s direct descendants retain majority control over Ford and VW. So to put it bluntly, Ford was founded by a Nazi supporter, and to this day is controlled by said Nazi supporter’s family, and VW was founded by Nazis and to this day is controlled by the same (former) Nazi family who built their fortune from a Nazi enterprise that used Jewish slave labor in Nazi Germany.
So it’s not as simple as saying the Nazis who founded Ford and VW are all dead. Their families are still alive to this day and still have direct control over those two companies.
Every time you drive a VW, you are supporting the Porsche family, who to this day have clung on to their ill-gotten gains from the Nazi era. The Porsche family is the 7th richest family of Germany with an estimated net worth of 66.5 billion euros. Their family business and family fortune was literally built by the Nazis using Jewish slave labor in concentration camps. The Nazi tanks they built helped carry out the Blitzkrieg. Do these facts make anyone here want to sell their VW or Porsche?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche%E2%80%93Pi%C3%ABch_family
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Porsche
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/volkswagen-1
Congratulations on your baby girl! Of course you are in a wonderful daze!Thanks!
I can't speak for others but I'm not upset either, merely pragmatic and aware. The funny thing is, I am the most optimistic, solution-oriented, positive-psychology-spouting, belief-challenging person I know -- so much so, that I disguise that fact most of the time as it's fairly off-putting.
Your response shows me why. Genuinely, I mean no offense. I sound like you 200% of the time when calming my family and friends down these days.
One thing that I think is very interesting to point out is that Ford and VW are both family businesses, controlled by families with strong links to the Nazis. Especially VW.
Henry Ford supported the Nazis and Ferdinand Porsche was a Nazi engineering industrialist who founded Porsche and was heavily involved in both Porsche and VW. He even built military vehicles for the Nazis such as heavy tanks.
VW was founded by the Nazis as a state run enterprise. They used Jewish slave labor in their Nazi factories. VW operated four concentration camps and eight forced-labor camps on its property. At one point, 80% of VW’s workforce was slave labor.
To this day, Henry Ford and Ferdinand Porsche’s direct descendants retain majority control over Ford and VW. So to put it bluntly, Ford was founded by a Nazi supporter, and to this day is controlled by said Nazi supporter’s family, and VW was founded by Nazis and to this day is controlled by the same (former) Nazi family who built their fortune from a Nazi enterprise that used Jewish slave labor in Nazi Germany.
So it’s not as simple as saying the Nazis who founded Ford and VW are all dead. Their families are still alive to this day and still have direct control over those two companies.
Every time you drive a VW, you are supporting the Porsche family, who to this day have clung on to their ill-gotten gains from the Nazi era. The Porsche family is the 7th richest family of Germany with an estimated net worth of 66.5 billion euros. Their family business and family fortune was literally built by the Nazis using Jewish slave labor in concentration camps. The Nazi tanks they built helped carry out the Blitzkrieg. Do these facts make anyone here want to sell their VW or Porsche?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche%E2%80%93Pi%C3%ABch_family
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Porsche
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/volkswagen-1
Let’s be up in arms about Musk, while we have homes filled with, and continue to buy, products that were sourced through forced child labor.
wait wait his is a group bit that everyone is in on right? there's no way this community could have this many ignorant conspiracy theorist nutjobs that actually believe that was an intentional "facist salute", that would be truly sad and pathetic
So it’s not as simple as saying the Nazis who founded Ford and VW are all dead. Their families are still alive to this day and still have direct control over those two companies.
Let’s be up in arms about Musk, while we have homes filled with, and continue to buy, products that were sourced through forced child labor.
Or we could be up in arms about Musk and also do our best to avoid products produced via forced labour. Fortunately, there's a handy list to consult:
https://www.dol.gov/agencies/ilab/reports/child-labor/list-of-goods (https://www.dol.gov/agencies/ilab/reports/child-labor/list-of-goods)
Let’s be up in arms about Musk, while we have homes filled with, and continue to buy, products that were sourced through forced child labor.
Or we could be up in arms about Musk and also do our best to avoid products produced via forced labour. Fortunately, there's a handy list to consult:
https://www.dol.gov/agencies/ilab/reports/child-labor/list-of-goods (https://www.dol.gov/agencies/ilab/reports/child-labor/list-of-goods)
Helpful list. Avoid "lithium ion batteries" and "cotton" from China.. Tough one.
And let's not forget Mercedes-Benz. They refigured their vehicle for senior members of the Nazi party (Hitler, Goring, et al) and VW went to the common folk.So it’s not as simple as saying the Nazis who founded Ford and VW are all dead. Their families are still alive to this day and still have direct control over those two companies.
It is that simple, unless you believe the sins of the parents carry down to the children. I believe it is more moral to judge people by their own actions, instead of by the actions of their parents or grandparents.
wait wait his is a group bit that everyone is in on right? there's no way this community could have this many ignorant conspiracy theorist nutjobs that actually believe that was an intentional "facist salute", that would be truly sad and pathetic
It's not just about the action that occurred, and whether it was a fascist salute. If it wasn't intended to be one, the logical thing to do would for him to have corrected that perception with a, "hey, I can see how it could come across that way, but obviously not my intention as I don't support Nazi activity and am not a Nazi." He didn't do that. He also supports the far right activities in Germany (AFD).
Do you see how those two things together, in combination with the "salute" lead people to understand it for what it appears to be? A demonstration of support for Nazis?
It is that simple, unless you believe the sins of the parents carry down to the children. I believe it is more moral to judge people by their own actions, instead of by the actions of their parents or grandparents.
As the grand daughter of a Nazi solider who's mom was raised in a refugee camp (at the old Dachau concentration camp) in post WWII Germany, I sure as hell hope no one would consider me, or any company holdings my grandparent had, as Nazi supporters. I have a lot of Hitler and Nazi stuff (money, stamps, etc) at my house waiting to be unloaded (burn it?) and fall as far from my grandparents and my mom's ideology as possible.
It is that simple, unless you believe the sins of the parents carry down to the children. I believe it is more moral to judge people by their own actions, instead of by the actions of their parents or grandparents.As the grand daughter of a Nazi solider who's mom was raised in a refugee camp (at the old Dachau concentration camp) in post WWII Germany, I sure as hell hope no one would consider me, or any company holdings my grandparent had, as Nazi supporters. I have a lot of Hitler and Nazi stuff (money, stamps, etc) at my house waiting to be unloaded (burn it?) and fall as far from my grandparents and my mom's ideology as possible.
It’s not solely about the sins of the parents. It’s that the Porsche family has held on to the Nazi business created by their Nazi ancestor. VW and Porsche were Nazi businesses created by Nazis, for Nazis, and they built their cars in death camps and built tanks for the Blitzkrieg. The same former Nazi family who started that Nazi business still retains full control of the company, with iron-clad voting rights.
It’s like if your Nazi grandfather murdered some Jews and stole artwork out of their house, and although you have issued an apology, you still have the paintings hanging prominently on your wall and refuse to take them down. Is that ok?
It’s not solely about the sins of the parents. It’s that the Porsche family has held on to the Nazi business created by their Nazi ancestor. VW and Porsche were Nazi businesses created by Nazis, for Nazis, and they built their cars in death camps and built tanks for the Blitzkrieg. The same former Nazi family who started that Nazi business still retains full control of the company, with iron-clad voting rights.
It’s like if your Nazi grandfather murdered some Jews and stole artwork out of their house, and although you have issued an apology, you still have the paintings hanging prominently on your wall and refuse to take them down. Is that ok?
That's not a great analogy. The Porsche company of today was started from scratch post-war in Austria and initially was a vehicle repair business.
Post-war Volkswagen was owned by West German government for decades (the government is still a major owner). The Porsche family didn't buy in until fairly recently (post 2000).
It is more complicated than that, but the story isn't like you describe.
This thread is about Elon Musk and Tesla. Musk has been making US policy decisions. Lots of companies are bad, but their CEOs are not standing next to our POTUS making direct decisions that negatively impact the lives of US citizens. The primary alarm is about democracy and the future of the US.
That's not a great analogy. The Porsche company of today was started from scratch post-war in Austria and initially was a vehicle repair business.
Post-war Volkswagen was owned by West German government for decades (the government is still a major owner). The Porsche family didn't buy in until fairly recently (post 2000).
It is more complicated than that, but the story isn't like you describe.
I dunno. When I go to Wikipedia it clearly states that Porsche was founded in 1931 by Ferdinand Porsche, a Nazi. It is true that they started out as consultants who designed vehicles for other companies, such as the iconic Volkswagen Beetle, Volkswagen’s first car. After the war, while Ferdinand Porsche was in prison for his Nazi crimes, his son took over the company and started manufacturing cars. But Ferdinand was released after just two years or so and helped his son with the company until he died of a stroke shortly afterwards.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche
Ferdinand Porsche was heavily involved in VW from the very beginning. He designed the Volkswagen Beetle under the personal direction of Adolf Hitler. He also oversaw the construction of the original Volkswagen factory in Wolfsburg, with his son-in-law Anton Piech acting as factory manager.
The Porsche website clearly states that the Porsche family has always been involved with Porsche and has been associated with VW from the very beginning of that company, which they later bought out.
https://www.porsche.com/stories/mobility/who-owns-porsche/
I didn't care about Musk before when he was an extreme liberal and I don't really care about him now that he appears to be an extreme right winger.
I didn't care about Musk before when he was an extreme liberal and I don't really care about him now that he appears to be an extreme right winger.
wow, that's a pretty wild understatement of what people's issue with Elon is! He appears to be? Even calling him a "right winger" is hardly descriptive. Someone who says crazy stuff on the internet can be called an "extreme right winger", what Elon is doing is obviously multiple levels above that!
I don't take a position on the sell/keep the Tesla. But saying that the reason is just because "elon seems to have some cooky ideas *shrug" is disingenuous, when he's personally, actively (and criminally) destroying the US government and doing irreparable damage to it and the US foreign alliances that will take decades to repair, if ever.
I didn't care about Musk before when he was an extreme liberal and I don't really care about him now that he appears to be an extreme right winger.
wow, that's a pretty wild understatement of what people's issue with Elon is! He appears to be? Even calling him a "right winger" is hardly descriptive. Someone who says crazy stuff on the internet can be called an "extreme right winger", what Elon is doing is obviously multiple levels above that!
I don't take a position on the sell/keep the Tesla. But saying that the reason is just because "elon seems to have some cooky ideas *shrug" is disingenuous, when he's personally, actively (and criminally) destroying the US government and doing irreparable damage to it and the US foreign alliances that will take decades to repair, if ever.
Show me where in my response I said what you said I said please. Your interpretation of 3 words I used is telling. You are still arguing that I should care about what others believe my beliefs are because I drive a car. How is me owning a car that I bought 2 years ago relevant to Elon "actively and criminally destroying the US government and doing irreplaceable damage to it and the US foreign alliances that will take decades to repair"?
I guess I go back to my original point. Why should I care what you infer my personal beliefs to be based on the car I drive? I've never cared before. You're argument seems to be that I should care now, that at a certain point it's so existential I need to care. I guess I still need convincing there. To me it's literally a vehicle to get me from point A to point B that I already purchased. It's a sunk cost at this point. It wasn't a political statement before and it certainly isn't now.
Any Ford owners on this forum? Henry Ford published antisemitic newspaper articles well after the brand was established. Quite a step up from a hand gesture.
Any Ford owners on this forum? Henry Ford published antisemitic newspaper articles well after the brand was established. Quite a step up from a hand gesture.
Isn't this a red herring? 1) OP isn't talking about a Ford. 2) Ford is dead so isn't changing policy. 3) No one associates a Ford car with antisemitism now. Meanwhile, Musk is using Telsa revenue to gain power and influence elections today.
If things are just tools that we should dispassionately use, then why do we have preferences at all? Why do we wear certain clothes?
...
We’re not just running a maze at random. Right? RIGHT? Please tell me this isn’t a maze and we aren’t the rats… 🐀
I saw a cyber truck this morning with the license plate PSALM 70, which is just about the whiniest thing ever. What a snowflake!
If you can't see any relevance at all to the topic at hand move along or tell me you disagree with the analogy but the red herring label seems dismissive.Any Ford owners on this forum? Henry Ford published antisemitic newspaper articles well after the brand was established. Quite a step up from a hand gesture.
Isn't this a red herring? 1) OP isn't talking about a Ford. 2) Ford is dead so isn't changing policy. 3) No one associates a Ford car with antisemitism now. Meanwhile, Musk is using Telsa revenue to gain power and influence elections today.
If you can't see any relevance at all to the topic at hand move along or tell me you disagree with the analogy but the red herring label seems dismissive.
If you can't see any relevance at all to the topic at hand move along or tell me you disagree with the analogy but the red herring label seems dismissive.
It's not that there's no relevance, it's that bringing up Ford is changing the subject. What you did is a textbook example of a red herring fallacy. "Officer, why did you pull me over for speeding? There are far worse criminals out there committing crimes, you should be focused on them!"
If you can't see any relevance at all to the topic at hand move along or tell me you disagree with the analogy but the red herring label seems dismissive.
It's not that there's no relevance, it's that bringing up Ford is changing the subject. What you did is a textbook example of a red herring fallacy. "Officer, why did you pull me over for speeding? There are far worse criminals out there committing crimes, you should be focused on them!"
Thank you. Exactly.
@neo von retorch since you're responding to one of my threads, please show where I've defended Elon's actions or have indicated that I worship him in some way. I lost my job due to him, please don't label me as someone that fawns over him or excuses his actions or purchased any of his goods in the past nor would I be any more likely to moving forward. I find any association with him upsetting (I'm pretty freshly raw and trying to compose myself on the career aspect of it) and want to be clear about that.
"Officer, why did you pull me over for speeding? There are similar criminals out there committing similar crimes, and they don't seem to be punished for it!"
As for Elon, I don’t think he is currently involved much with Tesla. I think he currently prefers to spend his efforts on being a politician. I don’t think his actions are helping the Tesla brand at this point. I have heard stories about how his political antics have incited leftists to vandalize innocent people’s Tesla vehicles. I would be perfectly happy if he stepped down from his role as Tesla CEO and was replaced by someone else who would devote their time and energy to the company rather than unrelated political endeavors that hurt the brand.
Elon Musk owns approximately 23% of Tesla's shares, which amounts to around 715 million shares
QuoteElon Musk owns approximately 23% of Tesla's shares, which amounts to around 715 million shares
But if collective action makes Tesla a toxic brand, suppressing say $100 / share of TLSA, then we would at least hurt Elon a little, right? I like that idea.
QuoteElon Musk owns approximately 23% of Tesla's shares, which amounts to around 715 million shares
But if collective action makes Tesla a toxic brand, suppressing say $100 / share of TLSA, then we would at least hurt Elon a little, right? I like that idea.
So your goal is to hurt Tesla the company, which has done good for the world, just to hurt someone that you hate? And what about Tesla’s employees, customers, and investors?
So if Elon stepped down as Tesla CEO, would you still attack the company because of his ownership stake? What if he sold his stake in Tesla and invested in real estate? Would you support vandalizing his properties, with no regard for whoever was living there? If he invested in farmland like Bill Gates, would you support burning those farms? If Elon invested in index funds, would you support destroying the United States economy? Where do you draw the line for your scorched-earth tactics? Is it only once your attacks start hurting you or your friends?
My goal is to draw the obvious association of Elon Musk to his shares and CEO role at Tesla, such that if they take action and remove him from CEO (and maybe he considers selling his stake), the company can BE GREAT AGAIN!
Well, I would be ok with Elon Musk getting kicked out of Tesla. I don’t think he is helping the company.
The Board has also made a commitment to increasing diversity, with a goal of having at least one woman and one underrepresented minority on the Board by the end of 2021.
Not selling my model3 (before pandemic purchase), but I've made a custom sticker for my car. (10 minimum order in case anyone wants one, image attached below.)
I will also not be buying another tesla while Elon is associated with it. I've also encouraged at least one other person who was considering buying one to go in a different direction.
I've switched my position on Elon. He used to be involved in interesting problems, now he's a boring identity-politics troll that throws his wealthy around causing chaos and damage to society. Net negative. I want him to fail, and I'll do my part boycotting anything associated with him.
Even if Musk gets kicked out of Tesla, as long as he continues to be a major shareholder, I refuse to buy a Tesla.
Even if Musk gets kicked out of Tesla, as long as he continues to be a major shareholder, I refuse to buy a Tesla.
I want to better understand this mindset. So if Elon sold his Tesla stake and bought Apple, would you boycott iPhones? What if he puts his wealth into index funds? Where do you draw the line on attacking Elon Musk’s investments?
Even if Musk gets kicked out of Tesla, as long as he continues to be a major shareholder, I refuse to buy a Tesla.
I want to better understand this mindset. So if Elon sold his Tesla stake and bought Apple, would you boycott iPhones? What if he puts his wealth into index funds? Where do you draw the line on attacking Elon Musk’s investments?
Personally, I believe in global trade and a world economy. I own a Chinese-made phone from a Chinese-owned company, and drive a Chinese-made car. Don't tell my dad. There are plenty of reasons to worry about Chinese-owned companies, too. Though at least they aren't (directly?) tearing my own country apart?
Even if Musk gets kicked out of Tesla, as long as he continues to be a major shareholder, I refuse to buy a Tesla.
I want to better understand this mindset. So if Elon sold his Tesla stake and bought Apple, would you boycott iPhones? What if he puts his wealth into index funds? Where do you draw the line on attacking Elon Musk’s investments?
For what it's worth, I've never owned Ford, VW, or Apple products.
Now Apple, it's a bit philosophical. They are a closed system, and they design and engineer their products so you have to buy in to their ecosystem. You want their Watch, you need their Phone! Their computers are more cross-compatible, I think, but for a while you could only write Apps on their computers. Overall I prefer a "more" open system, but I still don't use Linux all day.
Making consumer decisions like these isn't going to be perfect. Basically "perfect" would be "libertarian" in that you're self-sufficient somewhere. No products from companies; they all accumulate wealth, get rich "within the system", etc.
GM had government stake in it during the global financial crisis, earning it the name "Government Motors". That's in the past now, but do you decide to avoid their cars because of history?
You can probably find "a fault" in every company.
But what you can't find in most cases is a CEO and 23% owner like Elon Musk, who (if you believe the hundreds if not thousands of "mainstream" news organizations that report on activity in Washington) has been given unprecedented access and influence to Federal systems, being able to directly antagonize, question, and threaten Federal employees, who has lied about "savings" with misinformation while actively enlisting Federal funds that will directly benefit Tesla and SpaceX.
Sometimes it's Bad Enough, Important Enough that taking a stand matters. For each individual that level will be different. With consumer choices, each situation will have to be evaluated.
Personally, I believe in global trade and a world economy. I own a Chinese-made phone from a Chinese-owned company, and drive a Chinese-made car. Don't tell my dad. There are plenty of reasons to worry about Chinese-owned companies, too. Though at least they aren't (directly?) tearing my own country apart?
There are plenty of reasons to worry about Chinese-owned companies, too.
You might want to reconsider your perspective on China and Chinese-owned companies.
Well, once again I'm confused. Why do I write the things I write, if they are not going to be read?
TikTok: The United States has the highest number of monthly active users at approximately 65.9 million MAU source (https://www.thinkimpact.com/tiktok-statistics/)
Personally, I believe in global trade and a world economy. I own a Chinese-made phone from a Chinese-owned company, and drive a Chinese-made car. Don't tell my dad. There are plenty of reasons to worry about Chinese-owned companies, too. Though at least they aren't (directly?) tearing my own country apart?
You might want to reconsider your perspective on China and Chinese-owned companies.
I believe that China used TikTok to influence the election and help elect Donald Trump. How about all those “Free Palestine” leftists who stayed home during the election because Kamala supported Israel? Where were they getting their news from?
Personally, I believe in global trade and a world economy. I own a Chinese-made phone from a Chinese-owned company, and drive a Chinese-made car. Don't tell my dad. There are plenty of reasons to worry about Chinese-owned companies, too. Though at least they aren't (directly?) tearing my own country apart?
You might want to reconsider your perspective on China and Chinese-owned companies.
I believe that China used TikTok to influence the election and help elect Donald Trump. How about all those “Free Palestine” leftists who stayed home during the election because Kamala supported Israel? Where were they getting their news from?
Anyone who gets (and believe) any news from tiktok is too stupid to function. These people would never make any rational decisions anyway, no matter the news source. Trying to pad all the sharp corners of modern society to protect these imbeciles is totally futile, so I don't see why we even bother. Ban one thing, and they'll go stick forks in the outlets anyway.
OK, from the replies, some useful tidbits:
- To end a Tesla lease early, you don’t have to pay the full amount remaining — only the balance •minus• the car’s current resale value.
- Cars depreciate, so you’ll lose some money. But…
- …if the used market is dropping fast, Tesla’s official resale value will probably lag behind reality. Thus breaking a lease actually •can• take money straight out of Tesla’s pockets.
Any German company that's been around since before 1945 has a connection to Nazi's. Any Japanese company that existed before 1945 had a connection to the Empire of Japan. Mitsubishi's past isn't great.
Tesla sales plunged 45% in Europe in January
The sales numbers were particularly bad in Germany and France in January, down roughly 60% each, more than the average decline for the more than two-dozen European countries surveyed. Sales in France fell another 26% in February.
Sales of Tesla’s Model 3 dropped 33% across all European countries even though that car is not being updated and there is no reason for buyers to wait
As of Friday, it (Tesla’s stock) has dropped 37% since its Inauguration Day, a loss of $550 billion in investor wealth.
Today I saw a Tesla Model X and the metal Tesla "T" emblem on the rear had been turned upside down so it basicly looked like it was giving you the finger. Reddit said it's used as an anti-Elon indicator that basicly says Fuck You Elon Musk.
AI Overview:
On Reddit, a Tesla emblem turned upside down is generally interpreted as a sign of discontent or protest against Tesla; it's a way for users to express negativity towards the company, its practices, or its CEO, Elon Musk, often related to issues like customer service, safety concerns, or perceived unethical behavior.
Today I saw a Tesla Model X and the metal Tesla "T" emblem on the rear had been turned upside down so it basicly looked like it was giving you the finger. Reddit said it's used as an anti-Elon indicator that basicly says Fuck You Elon Musk.
AI Overview:
On Reddit, a Tesla emblem turned upside down is generally interpreted as a sign of discontent or protest against Tesla; it's a way for users to express negativity towards the company, its practices, or its CEO, Elon Musk, often related to issues like customer service, safety concerns, or perceived unethical behavior.
Today I saw a Tesla Model X and the metal Tesla "T" emblem on the rear had been turned upside down so it basicly looked like it was giving you the finger. Reddit said it's used as an anti-Elon indicator that basicly says Fuck You Elon Musk.
AI Overview:
On Reddit, a Tesla emblem turned upside down is generally interpreted as a sign of discontent or protest against Tesla; it's a way for users to express negativity towards the company, its practices, or its CEO, Elon Musk, often related to issues like customer service, safety concerns, or perceived unethical behavior.
Counterpoint: I saw a blacked out Tesla ( I think an S? I'm not sure) with a large "DARK ENLIGHTENMENT" script on the back window.
Look that up if you don't know what it means.
This might be a great time to develop a kit car based on a Tesla platform. Tesla disguised as a Ferrari or Cobra
I haven't had the time to read this whole thread, but if I were a clever graphics artist, I would design a little logo, perhaps shaped like a Democrats donkey or the Resistance fist, have it cast in metal, and sell it to regretful Tesla owners like @EchoStache. They could easily remove the Tesla T with these instructions (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFx5lm1T93c) and use adhesive to attach the new badge. There are no laws as far as I know about removing/rebadging cars.
The price of the new badges should include a substantial ($1000+ ) donation to a leftist organization such as SwingLeft (https://swingleft.org/), Indivisible (https://swingleft.org/), or SisterDistrict (https://sisterdistrict.com/), or to a candidate in a swing district.
This might be a great time to develop a kit car based on a Tesla platform. Tesla disguised as a Ferrari or CobraOr, ya know, a real truck.
This might be a great time to develop a kit car based on a Tesla platform. Tesla disguised as a Ferrari or CobraOr, ya know, a real truck.
This might be a great time to develop a kit car based on a Tesla platform. Tesla disguised as a Ferrari or Cobra
Today I saw a Tesla Model X and the metal Tesla "T" emblem on the rear had been turned upside down so it basicly looked like it was giving you the finger. Reddit said it's used as an anti-Elon indicator that basicly says Fuck You Elon Musk.
AI Overview:
On Reddit, a Tesla emblem turned upside down is generally interpreted as a sign of discontent or protest against Tesla; it's a way for users to express negativity towards the company, its practices, or its CEO, Elon Musk, often related to issues like customer service, safety concerns, or perceived unethical behavior.
Counterpoint: I saw a blacked out Tesla ( I think an S? I'm not sure) with a large "DARK ENLIGHTENMENT" script on the back window.
Look that up if you don't know what it means.
This might be a great time to develop a kit car based on a Tesla platform. Tesla disguised as a Ferrari or Cobra
I’ve always wanted to do a kit car. Love looking at those conversion kits. Though in general I’d rather make something smaller. I much prefer micromobility to full-size EVs.
I’ve always wanted to do a kit car. Love looking at those conversion kits. Though in general I’d rather make something smaller. I much prefer micromobility to full-size EVs.
https://youtu.be/e5ngD4j8b40
Small enough? ;)
Apparently changing out the branding is a thing now.That was a fun rabbit hole!
https://thedriven.io/2025/03/05/tesla-owners-across-america-are-selling-or-even-rebadging-their-evs-as-a-honda-or-audi/ (https://thedriven.io/2025/03/05/tesla-owners-across-america-are-selling-or-even-rebadging-their-evs-as-a-honda-or-audi/)
OMG I love it! Though it barely looks like me & my dogs would fit. The two things I’d like to be able to do with a tiny e-vehicle is tow a laser or other boat, and/or take my dogs places. I am noticing a lot more golf cart-type vehicles, but they are still pretty expensive. I really like vehicles that fall through the regulatory cracks like e-bikes do. This tiny car probably would too.
Apparently changing out the branding is a thing now.That was a fun rabbit hole!
https://thedriven.io/2025/03/05/tesla-owners-across-america-are-selling-or-even-rebadging-their-evs-as-a-honda-or-audi/ (https://thedriven.io/2025/03/05/tesla-owners-across-america-are-selling-or-even-rebadging-their-evs-as-a-honda-or-audi/)
A friend of my brother's drove a gas-guzzling truck with "Hybrid" badges. Funny guy.Apparently changing out the branding is a thing now.That was a fun rabbit hole!
https://thedriven.io/2025/03/05/tesla-owners-across-america-are-selling-or-even-rebadging-their-evs-as-a-honda-or-audi/ (https://thedriven.io/2025/03/05/tesla-owners-across-america-are-selling-or-even-rebadging-their-evs-as-a-honda-or-audi/)
Rebranding the cars would probably fool most people.
Tangent: back in the day, a friend of mine bought a used Lexus for a really good price. He operated a nonprofit, and because he didn’t want people to think he was living the high life, he changed out the branding to Toyota logos. Worked like a charm.
Any Ford owners on this forum? Henry Ford published antisemitic newspaper articles well after the brand was established. Quite a step up from a hand gesture.
Any Ford owners on this forum? Henry Ford published antisemitic newspaper articles well after the brand was established. Quite a step up from a hand gesture.
Yes, old Henry was a chief proponent of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
Out of curiosity, would ya’ll boycott your local library if it owned this title? Once I ordered it for our library’s collection because we owned more than one book that responded to The Protocols but didn’t own The Protocols itself. That seemed silly and excessively delicate to me.