Thinking of selling my Tesla. Ashamed to drive and own.

[Scandium]

I didn't care about Musk before when he was an extreme liberal and I don't really care about him now that he appears to be an extreme right winger.

wow, that's a pretty wild understatement of what people's issue with Elon is! He appears to be? Even calling him a "right winger" is hardly descriptive. Someone who says crazy stuff on the internet can be called an "extreme right winger", what Elon is doing is obviously multiple levels above that!

I don't take a position on the sell/keep the Tesla. But saying that the reason is just because "elon seems to have some cooky ideas *shrug" is disingenuous, when he's personally, actively (and criminally) destroying the US government and doing irreparable damage to it and the US foreign alliances that will take decades to repair, if ever.

[mizzourah2006]

I didn't care about Musk before when he was an extreme liberal and I don't really care about him now that he appears to be an extreme right winger.

wow, that's a pretty wild understatement of what people's issue with Elon is! He appears to be? Even calling him a "right winger" is hardly descriptive. Someone who says crazy stuff on the internet can be called an "extreme right winger", what Elon is doing is obviously multiple levels above that!

I don't take a position on the sell/keep the Tesla. But saying that the reason is just because "elon seems to have some cooky ideas *shrug" is disingenuous, when he's personally, actively (and criminally) destroying the US government and doing irreparable damage to it and the US foreign alliances that will take decades to repair, if ever.

Show me where in my response I said what you said I said please. Your interpretation of 3 words I used is telling. You are still arguing that I should care about what others believe my beliefs are because I drive a car. How is me owning a car that I bought 2 years ago relevant to Elon "actively and criminally destroying the US government and doing irreplaceable damage to it and the US foreign alliances that will take decades to repair"?

I guess I go back to my original point. Why should I care what you infer my personal beliefs to be based on the car I drive? I've never cared before. You're argument seems to be that I should care now, that at a certain point it's so existential I need to care. I guess I still need convincing there. To me it's literally a vehicle to get me from point A to point B that I already purchased. It's a sunk cost at this point. It wasn't a political statement before and it certainly isn't now.

[Scandium]

I didn't care about Musk before when he was an extreme liberal and I don't really care about him now that he appears to be an extreme right winger.

wow, that's a pretty wild understatement of what people's issue with Elon is! He appears to be? Even calling him a "right winger" is hardly descriptive. Someone who says crazy stuff on the internet can be called an "extreme right winger", what Elon is doing is obviously multiple levels above that!

I don't take a position on the sell/keep the Tesla. But saying that the reason is just because "elon seems to have some cooky ideas *shrug" is disingenuous, when he's personally, actively (and criminally) destroying the US government and doing irreparable damage to it and the US foreign alliances that will take decades to repair, if ever.

Show me where in my response I said what you said I said please. Your interpretation of 3 words I used is telling. You are still arguing that I should care about what others believe my beliefs are because I drive a car. How is me owning a car that I bought 2 years ago relevant to Elon "actively and criminally destroying the US government and doing irreplaceable damage to it and the US foreign alliances that will take decades to repair"?

I guess I go back to my original point. Why should I care what you infer my personal beliefs to be based on the car I drive? I've never cared before. You're argument seems to be that I should care now, that at a certain point it's so existential I need to care. I guess I still need convincing there. To me it's literally a vehicle to get me from point A to point B that I already purchased. It's a sunk cost at this point. It wasn't a political statement before and it certainly isn't now.

eh, I quoted what you said? "he appears to be an extreme right winger." You stated that's the reason someone don't want their tesla. I said no, that's not it. It's what he's doing, not just what he "appears to be"

And no, I never said you should care what others think, not even close.
"You are still arguing that I should care about what others believe my beliefs are [...] You're argument seems to be that I should care now, that at a certain point it's so existential I need to care"
Honestly confused, I never said any of this, don't know how you got that from my post. I don't care at all. I just said why others (i.e. OP) might care. You twisted me explaining how others think into a personal attack.. I even said I take no position on it. Considering the number of tesla-owning libs, it's probably not a big deal. But I don't have to drive one so I don't really know.

[mizzourah2006]

That's fair. I misinterpreted then.

I totally get not wanting to buy a new one now, assuming there are equally comparable alternatives.

But for all those that already have one, the idea of selling because of Elon seems to go against the main premise of this forum. The idea that a car is a tool, not a statement of who you are as a person. That underlying sentiment has been what's driven the idea of choose a car for efficiency, buy used, drive it until the wheels fall off, etc.

It seems to me that if you (I use this term generally, not directly at you) want to sell a car because of Elon then the car was never really just a tool to you. It was a statement of either your values as a person or external validation of what others believe your values as a person to be, which is fine, but again then are you really any different than the person driving the brand new Mercedes S class or the BMW 7 series?

[Fru-Gal]

If things are just tools that we should dispassionately use, then why do we have preferences at all? Why do we wear certain clothes? Usually life experience has shown us that if we dress a certain way, we will get reactions we may not want. Would you buy Kanye West’s swastika T-shirt if you had to buy a T-shirt urgently and it was the one available to you at the moment? If other people acted angrily when you walked around wearing that shirt, even if you didn’t care much about history, might you not get rid of it as soon as possible?

Why choose a particular smart phone or computer platform? Why live in a certain neighborhood, state or country? These are all choices we make with our free will.

We’re not just running a maze at random. Right? RIGHT? Please tell me this isn’t a maze and we aren’t the rats… 🐀

[Fru-Gal]

Musk has been one of the most brilliant marketers of our time. David Ogilvy couldn’t come up with a better marketing story than Musk’s. Even when divorcing the man from the car, it has been marketed as a technology platform, a smart phone on wheels. Marketing is the religion of the modern world. It pervades everything, and gives us values we don’t even realize are not ours. It is no sin to have purchased a Tesla believing it was a righteous choice.

Note that I don’t own an e-car and believe full size EVs and cars are the problem, not the solution. One e-car equals 400 e-bikes, and an e-bike is a true car replacement and a joyful way to get around.

[mtnrider]

Any Ford owners on this forum? Henry Ford published antisemitic newspaper articles well after the brand was established. Quite a step up from a hand gesture.

Isn't this a red herring?  1) OP isn't talking about a Ford.  2) Ford is dead so isn't changing policy.  3) No one associates a Ford car with antisemitism now.  Meanwhile, Musk is using Telsa revenue to gain power and influence elections today.

[neo von retorch]

Any Ford owners on this forum? Henry Ford published antisemitic newspaper articles well after the brand was established. Quite a step up from a hand gesture.

Isn't this a red herring?  1) OP isn't talking about a Ford.  2) Ford is dead so isn't changing policy.  3) No one associates a Ford car with antisemitism now.  Meanwhile, Musk is using Telsa revenue to gain power and influence elections today.

Yes. Distractions all the way down.

"Never mind that a private billionaire has taken over the computer systems throughout Federal government, never you mind that he's using power and influence to send money back to Tesla and SpaceX in the form of new government contracts. There's nothing you can do so suck it up and drive around a car that advertises support for this despicable person and the fall of the United States representative government."

Selling a Tesla for $25k and buying a comparable EV for $25k is not a bad financial decision, and it should help you sleep better at night.

What the heck are people doing jumping in to defend a corrupt billionaire? I just don't get it. Worship someone better.

[mtnrider]

If things are just tools that we should dispassionately use, then why do we have preferences at all? Why do we wear certain clothes?

Social signaling and symbolism is important.  Yes.  Look at how it works in animal behavior.

I think they're talking about "empty" virtual signaling.  Selling a Tesla isn't that.  It has a practical effect that the revenue of Tesla goes down, bringing down the stock price, and Musk's net worth.  And it tells other people that you aren't OK with Musk.

I wouldn't buy a Tesla.  If I had one I'd sell it if I could afford to.  And I'd certainly have a "I bought this before he turned crazy" sticker if I couldn't sell it.

...
We’re not just running a maze at random. Right? RIGHT? Please tell me this isn’t a maze and we aren’t the rats… 🐀

Musk believes that we live in a simulation.  Fair warning that he said this on Rogan's podcast. 

We may be in a rat race, but this is real life.

[Cranky]

I saw a cyber truck this morning with the license plate PSALM 70, which is just about the whiniest thing ever. What a snowflake!

[GuitarStv]

I saw a cyber truck this morning with the license plate PSALM 70, which is just about the whiniest thing ever. What a snowflake!

I had to look psalm 70 up.  Kinda a weird one to broadcast, very 'gimme gimme'.  I see why it's not one of the popular ones.

[the_gastropod]

Feels like this meme should be appended to about half the responses in this thread. Good grief.

[simonsez]

Any Ford owners on this forum? Henry Ford published antisemitic newspaper articles well after the brand was established. Quite a step up from a hand gesture.

Isn't this a red herring?  1) OP isn't talking about a Ford.  2) Ford is dead so isn't changing policy.  3) No one associates a Ford car with antisemitism now.  Meanwhile, Musk is using Telsa revenue to gain power and influence elections today.

If you can't see any relevance at all to the topic at hand move along or tell me you disagree with the analogy but the red herring label seems dismissive.

Virtue signaling has value.  Making comparisons has value. Having discussions has value.

By you throwing out the term red herring, it seems like you want to shut down discussion. There is value in keeping a topic focused on the original topic but I don't think discussing car industry actions from people in history is that irrelevant to car industry people actions now. You seem to disagree, that's fine.

I don't even disagree with what you pointed out about Ford. Yes, he is dead and Ford* is not known for its antisemitism today. But there was a point at which the court of public opinion shifted and didn't care about what transpired in the past. It's interesting to me when this blows over for Tesla since I'm on the sideline and don't care whether Elon is relevant and if people buy goods related to him or not.

* Food for thought, if Huxley wrote Brave New World today, Elon would be a good replacement for Ford as a paragon/pariah of innovation, consumerism, rampant overindustrialization, etc. not to mention the cutesy minced oaths and other idioms in the literature.

Like, does this mean that this Tesla blowback will fade at some point? How many years was it before the stigma of Ford was removed? How many years will it be until the stigma of Elon is removed? That's a personal answer that will vary from "will always last" to "I already don't care" and everything between. Plus we don't know the future. I just find it fascinating. As I said I'm an indexer who would never spend money on a luxury brand vehicle, and to each their own, so it adds a layer of intrigue on a frugality forum to see what reactions are.

Also, thanks for the chuckle. The reasoning of your dismissal of simulation theory because "this is real life" was <chef's kiss>. I mean, there is a lot of meat on the bone when talking about multiverse, quantum physics, future of AI and possible sentience, Horton Hears a Who, meaning of life, perception, defining reality, creation/timeline of matter, and hundreds of other topics in this vein with not many provable facts or at least a good chunk of theory involved.  Thanks for solving it, that was brilliant.

@neo von retorch since you're responding to one of my threads, please show where I've defended Elon's actions or have indicated that I worship him in some way. I lost my job due to him, please don't label me as someone that fawns over him or excuses his actions or purchased any of his goods in the past nor would I be any more likely to moving forward. I find any association with him upsetting (I'm pretty freshly raw and trying to compose myself on the career aspect of it) and want to be clear about that.

[the_gastropod]

If you can't see any relevance at all to the topic at hand move along or tell me you disagree with the analogy but the red herring label seems dismissive.

It's not that there's no relevance, it's that bringing up Ford is changing the subject. What you did is a textbook example of a red herring fallacy. "Officer, why did you pull me over for speeding? There are far worse criminals out there committing crimes, you should be focused on them!"

[mtnrider]

If you can't see any relevance at all to the topic at hand move along or tell me you disagree with the analogy but the red herring label seems dismissive.

It's not that there's no relevance, it's that bringing up Ford is changing the subject. What you did is a textbook example of a red herring fallacy. "Officer, why did you pull me over for speeding? There are far worse criminals out there committing crimes, you should be focused on them!"

Thank you.  Exactly.

[GuitarStv]

If you can't see any relevance at all to the topic at hand move along or tell me you disagree with the analogy but the red herring label seems dismissive.

It's not that there's no relevance, it's that bringing up Ford is changing the subject. What you did is a textbook example of a red herring fallacy. "Officer, why did you pull me over for speeding? There are far worse criminals out there committing crimes, you should be focused on them!"

Thank you.  Exactly.

In fairness to the other side of the debate, I think that from a certain perspective it isn't so much about 'far worse guys' as 'similar guys'.  It's possible to see Ford's outspoken support of Nazism as being similar to Musk's*.  That really changes the spin on the question:

"Officer, why did you pull me over for speeding? There are similar criminals out there committing similar crimes, and they don't seem to be punished for it!"

In that context it would be a more fair question to ask (although wouldn't obviously negate the initial crime and is still something of a distraction).


* Note, this is obviously not a viewpoint I subscribe to.  To me there seems to be a clear difference between a dead man's company, years after he admitted to making a huge mistake and a living man's company while he's in the middle of continuing to make a huge mistake.  To come to this point of view you would have to be looking at things rather wildly out of context in my opinion.

[neo von retorch]

@neo von retorch since you're responding to one of my threads, please show where I've defended Elon's actions or have indicated that I worship him in some way. I lost my job due to him, please don't label me as someone that fawns over him or excuses his actions or purchased any of his goods in the past nor would I be any more likely to moving forward. I find any association with him upsetting (I'm pretty freshly raw and trying to compose myself on the career aspect of it) and want to be clear about that.

I don't want to attack individuals in the discussion, directly or indirectly.

The rough chain of events is:

 - grand world events we all learn about or don't learn about through our various sources and filters, so in my case, I see what I described - corrupt GOP, corrupt businessman turned reality TV star / celebrity turned corrupt politician and convicted felon, and then corrupt billionaire who did some great things for humanity and the U.S. by kickstarting e-payments, e-cars, and way less expensive space travel... but then turned into a complete whack job and now he's bought his way into way too much government influence, where he's indiscriminately firing people (like @simonsez) under the false pretense of rooting out gov't waste and fraud
- lots of people, largely due to a lifetime of influences, have a filter where Trump / Musk are heroes to this day, and the more they do in Washington, the better it is for America
- these same people worship and defend Elon / Trump and / or deny; downplay; gaslight, etc.
- this thread, where people have arguments of various merit for and against personal actions people can take that adhere to their personal values (or not) including financial wisdom, efficiency, activism, etc.

Overall, it's just frustrating to me.

The OP

- is in a good financial position
- regrets their purchase
- can get out of their purchase with some financial hardship, but well within the margin of what they can absorb without significant long-term hardship
- will feel better, sleep better at night if they sell the car

And thus

- there will be a minimal but cumulative effect of people just like OP selling used Tesla vehicles that increases supply, decreases demand, suppresses used car prices, and ultimately makes even the most avid Tesla fans think twice about buying new over used as those prices decrease in contrast
- the virtue of "being a horrible person and doing bad things to thousands+ of government (ex) employees and setting the U.S. up for all the hardships of the decimated federal government is not something we will all tolerate quietly, explicitly or implicitly" will be signaled en masse if meaningful numbers of Tesla vehicles are sold

All that being said, I'm sorry that my messages were indiscriminate and general. Ideally discussion and enlightenment being a desired outcome, I would be stoic and save my emotional response as an aside, separate from discussion, and I'd utilize patience and be completely calm and clear on what everyone has said and what I hope to communicate, but alas my human failures are clear and apparent here. But it is an excellent reminder of... (more lists!)

- the people reading what I write here are humans, too, many with good intentions
- we are all better for it if we try our best to treat each other as humans that deserve our best
- we refrain from pushing each other into... "the other" and attacking them as enemy

[Herbert Derp]

"Officer, why did you pull me over for speeding? There are similar criminals out there committing similar crimes, and they don't seem to be punished for it!"

Yeah, you got it. Also, I think it is easy to manufacture outrage against all sorts of companies and individuals, as has been shown by the myriad of examples in this thread. But right now, the hive mind is focused on Elon Musk, so everything seems to revolve around him.

Personally, I believe it is possible to appreciate Tesla and disagree with Elon Musk. Elon Musk is one man, who doesn’t seem to be particularly involved with Tesla at the moment. In fact, I’m not sure he has been that involved with the company for the last couple of years. And Elon’s detractors are often the first to point out his lack of involvement with Tesla.

Tesla the company consists of thousands of people who are not Elon Musk. Tesla has done great things for the world, in terms of accelerating the transition to electric vehicles and sustainable energy. I also think they make wonderful cars.

Tesla does not make political statements. Tesla does not build Nazi tanks. Tesla does not operate death camps. Oddly enough, VW did all of those things, due to being a government owned Nazi enterprise. But the point is that Tesla has done great things for humanity, unlike VW. And it’s not just ancient history, VW is still fresh off of their Dieselgate scandal. Let me know when Tesla does something even remotely as bad as Dieselgate.

As for Elon, I don’t think he is currently involved much with Tesla. I think he currently prefers to spend his time and energy on being a politician. I don’t think his actions are helping the Tesla brand at this point. I have heard stories about how his political antics have incited leftists to vandalize innocent people’s Tesla vehicles. I would be perfectly happy if he stepped down from his role as Tesla CEO and was replaced by someone else who would devote their time and energy to the company rather than unrelated political endeavors that hurt the brand.

So basically I support Tesla the company but am not a huge fan of Elon’s politics. That said, I do strongly support spending cuts and efficiency in the government, but that is a separate topic that we can continue to discuss in the DOGE threads.

[swiper]

Not selling my model3 (before pandemic purchase), but I've made a custom sticker for my car. (10 minimum order in case anyone wants one, image attached below.)

I will also not be buying another tesla while Elon is associated with it.  I've also encouraged at least one other person who was considering buying one to go in a different direction.

I've switched my position on Elon. He used to be involved in interesting problems, now he's a boring identity-politics troll that throws his wealthy around causing chaos and damage to society. Net negative. I want him to fail, and I'll do my part boycotting anything associated with him.

[neo von retorch]

As for Elon, I don’t think he is currently involved much with Tesla. I think he currently prefers to spend his efforts on being a politician. I don’t think his actions are helping the Tesla brand at this point. I have heard stories about how his political antics have incited leftists to vandalize innocent people’s Tesla vehicles. I would be perfectly happy if he stepped down from his role as Tesla CEO and was replaced by someone else who would devote their time and energy to the company rather than unrelated political endeavors that hurt the brand.

Elon Musk owns approximately 23% of Tesla's shares, which amounts to around 715 million shares

Ultimately, Tesla being publicly traded, and Elon probably being too busy funneling government contracts to Tesla and SpaceX, yeah it's probably pretty hard to "hurt the bottom line" of this asshole billionaire. But if collective action makes Tesla a toxic brand, suppressing say $100 / share of TLSA, then we would at least hurt Elon a little, right? I like that idea. He's hurting our country; he's hurt and will continue to hurt the Federal employees and their family; he's creating countless second order effects with what he's done under the DOGE banner.

[Herbert Derp]

Elon Musk owns approximately 23% of Tesla's shares, which amounts to around 715 million shares

But if collective action makes Tesla a toxic brand, suppressing say $100 / share of TLSA, then we would at least hurt Elon a little, right? I like that idea.

So your goal is to hurt Tesla the company, which has done good for the world, just to hurt someone that you hate? And what about Tesla’s employees, customers, and investors?

So if Elon stepped down as Tesla CEO, would you still attack the company because of his ownership stake? What if he sold his stake in Tesla and invested in real estate? Would you support vandalizing his properties, with no regard for whoever was living there? If he invested in farmland like Bill Gates, would you support burning those farms? If Elon invested in index funds, would you support destroying the United States economy? Where do you draw the line for your scorched-earth tactics? Is it only once your attacks start hurting you or your friends?

[neo von retorch]

Elon Musk owns approximately 23% of Tesla's shares, which amounts to around 715 million shares

But if collective action makes Tesla a toxic brand, suppressing say $100 / share of TLSA, then we would at least hurt Elon a little, right? I like that idea.

So your goal is to hurt Tesla the company, which has done good for the world, just to hurt someone that you hate? And what about Tesla’s employees, customers, and investors?

So if Elon stepped down as Tesla CEO, would you still attack the company because of his ownership stake? What if he sold his stake in Tesla and invested in real estate? Would you support vandalizing his properties, with no regard for whoever was living there? If he invested in farmland like Bill Gates, would you support burning those farms? If Elon invested in index funds, would you support destroying the United States economy? Where do you draw the line for your scorched-earth tactics? Is it only once your attacks start hurting you or your friends?

My goal is to draw the obvious association of Elon Musk to his shares and CEO role at Tesla, such that if they take action and remove him from CEO (and maybe he considers selling his stake), the company can BE GREAT AGAIN!

I'm not clear on how publicly traded companies work when it comes to share prices, etc. I mean yes if sales really drop (which they already are, regardless of OP's action or inaction with their used Tesla), then hopefully the decision-makers at Tesla decide to make better decisions.

Why would you even ask if I'm attacking Tesla regardless of Elon Musk. That makes no sense or connects at all to anything I've said.

Go re-read what I said and try harder! EDIT: This feels unnecessarily rude, and I'm striking it. I'm sorry.

[bacchi]

My goal is to draw the obvious association of Elon Musk to his shares and CEO role at Tesla, such that if they take action and remove him from CEO (and maybe he considers selling his stake), the company can BE GREAT AGAIN!

Make Tesla GREAT AGAIN! Dump Musk!

I like it.

[Herbert Derp]

Well, I would be ok with Elon Musk getting kicked out of Tesla. I don’t think he is helping the company.

[mtnrider]

Well, I would be ok with Elon Musk getting kicked out of Tesla. I don’t think he is helping the company.

We agree.

What was his pay package from Tesla?  $56 billion?  $101 billion?  He has the cult of personality, but is he really adding that much value to the company?  While also running many other companies, posting on Twitter, and messing around in the government?

While researching who was on the board, I noticed this:

The Board has also made a commitment to increasing diversity, with a goal of having at least one woman and one underrepresented minority on the Board by the end of 2021.

Sounds familiar.  Curious.

[Monocle Money Mouth]

Not selling my model3 (before pandemic purchase), but I've made a custom sticker for my car. (10 minimum order in case anyone wants one, image attached below.)

I will also not be buying another tesla while Elon is associated with it.  I've also encouraged at least one other person who was considering buying one to go in a different direction.

I've switched my position on Elon. He used to be involved in interesting problems, now he's a boring identity-politics troll that throws his wealthy around causing chaos and damage to society. Net negative. I want him to fail, and I'll do my part boycotting anything associated with him.

I have a few friends with Teslas who also bought before Musk started pulling all this shit. I know they consider themselves progressive. I understand if they can't afford to sell a car with life left in it to make a statement. I am encouraging them to buy something else when they need to replace them.

Even if Musk gets kicked out of Tesla, as long as he continues to be a major shareholder, I refuse to buy a Tesla.

[Herbert Derp]

Even if Musk gets kicked out of Tesla, as long as he continues to be a major shareholder, I refuse to buy a Tesla.

I want to better understand this mindset. So if Elon sold his Tesla stake and bought Apple, would you boycott iPhones? What if he puts his wealth into index funds? Where do you draw the line on attacking Elon Musk’s investments?

[Monocle Money Mouth]

Even if Musk gets kicked out of Tesla, as long as he continues to be a major shareholder, I refuse to buy a Tesla.

I want to better understand this mindset. So if Elon sold his Tesla stake and bought Apple, would you boycott iPhones? What if he puts his wealth into index funds? Where do you draw the line on attacking Elon Musk’s investments?

I don't think that will happen. Musk needs to be the main character. I don't see him buying index funds because he won't be able to do outrageous things to make people look at him by buying SPY or VOO.

But sure. If he spent $300 Billion on Apple shares, got a seat on the board, and became an activist investor, I would stop buying Apple products.

The more likely outcome is he just buys another company outright, or starts a new one so he can be in the spotlight. I would not buy products or services from them either.

[neo von retorch]

Even if Musk gets kicked out of Tesla, as long as he continues to be a major shareholder, I refuse to buy a Tesla.

I want to better understand this mindset. So if Elon sold his Tesla stake and bought Apple, would you boycott iPhones? What if he puts his wealth into index funds? Where do you draw the line on attacking Elon Musk’s investments?

For what it's worth, I've never owned Ford, VW, or Apple products.

Now Apple, it's a bit philosophical. They are a closed system, and they design and engineer their products so you have to buy in to their ecosystem. You want their Watch, you need their Phone! Their computers are more cross-compatible, I think, but for a while you could only write Apps on their computers. Overall I prefer a "more" open system, but I still don't use Linux all day.

Making consumer decisions like these isn't going to be perfect. Basically "perfect" would be "libertarian" in that you're self-sufficient somewhere. No products from companies; they all accumulate wealth, get rich "within the system", etc.

GM had government stake in it during the global financial crisis, earning it the name "Government Motors". That's in the past now, but do you decide to avoid their cars because of history?

You can probably find "a fault" in every company.

But what you can't find in most cases is a CEO and 23% owner like Elon Musk, who (if you believe the hundreds if not thousands of "mainstream" news organizations that report on activity in Washington) has been given unprecedented access and influence to Federal systems, being able to directly antagonize, question, and threaten Federal employees, who has lied about "savings" with misinformation while actively enlisting Federal funds that will directly benefit Tesla and SpaceX.

Sometimes it's Bad Enough, Important Enough that taking a stand matters. For each individual that level will be different. With consumer choices, each situation will have to be evaluated.

Personally, I believe in global trade and a world economy. I own a Chinese-made phone from a Chinese-owned company, and drive a Chinese-made car. Don't tell my dad. There are plenty of reasons to worry about Chinese-owned companies, too. Though at least they aren't (directly?) tearing my own country apart?

[Herbert Derp]

Personally, I believe in global trade and a world economy. I own a Chinese-made phone from a Chinese-owned company, and drive a Chinese-made car. Don't tell my dad. There are plenty of reasons to worry about Chinese-owned companies, too. Though at least they aren't (directly?) tearing my own country apart?

You might want to reconsider your perspective on China and Chinese-owned companies.

I believe that China used TikTok to influence the election and help elect Donald Trump. How about all those “Free Palestine” leftists who stayed home during the election because Kamala supported Israel? Where were they getting their news from?

China wants an isolationist US president who will back away from the rules based global order that is boxing them in. They also want someone who will step back and let them take Taiwan. So it is only natural that they would support Donald Trump.

China also knew that the Democratic establishment and legacy media would always support Israel. So they pushed pro-Palestine propaganda on TikTok to radicalize leftists and drive a wedge between them and the Democratic Party, in order to undermine support for Kamala Harris and help Donald Trump win the election. It’s plain as day, when you think about it.

Congress knew too. That’s why they acted so fast to pass the TikTok ban once the impact of the pro-Palestine TikTok propaganda became apparent. But by then it was too late for the Democrats.

Please note that I am not claiming that this is the sole reason why Donald Trump won the election. US elections are far too complicated for that. But it is certainly one of the reasons why he won.

[GuitarStv]

Even if Musk gets kicked out of Tesla, as long as he continues to be a major shareholder, I refuse to buy a Tesla.

I want to better understand this mindset. So if Elon sold his Tesla stake and bought Apple, would you boycott iPhones? What if he puts his wealth into index funds? Where do you draw the line on attacking Elon Musk’s investments?

For what it's worth, I've never owned Ford, VW, or Apple products.

Now Apple, it's a bit philosophical. They are a closed system, and they design and engineer their products so you have to buy in to their ecosystem. You want their Watch, you need their Phone! Their computers are more cross-compatible, I think, but for a while you could only write Apps on their computers. Overall I prefer a "more" open system, but I still don't use Linux all day.

Making consumer decisions like these isn't going to be perfect. Basically "perfect" would be "libertarian" in that you're self-sufficient somewhere. No products from companies; they all accumulate wealth, get rich "within the system", etc.

GM had government stake in it during the global financial crisis, earning it the name "Government Motors". That's in the past now, but do you decide to avoid their cars because of history?

You can probably find "a fault" in every company.

But what you can't find in most cases is a CEO and 23% owner like Elon Musk, who (if you believe the hundreds if not thousands of "mainstream" news organizations that report on activity in Washington) has been given unprecedented access and influence to Federal systems, being able to directly antagonize, question, and threaten Federal employees, who has lied about "savings" with misinformation while actively enlisting Federal funds that will directly benefit Tesla and SpaceX.

Sometimes it's Bad Enough, Important Enough that taking a stand matters. For each individual that level will be different. With consumer choices, each situation will have to be evaluated.

Personally, I believe in global trade and a world economy. I own a Chinese-made phone from a Chinese-owned company, and drive a Chinese-made car. Don't tell my dad. There are plenty of reasons to worry about Chinese-owned companies, too. Though at least they aren't (directly?) tearing my own country apart?

Also important to note that Elon Musk completely controls the board of Tesla and has been able to 'convince' them to vote to give him a truly ridiculous 56 billion dollar pay package that courts took one look at and immediately said was unfair to stockholders.

[neo von retorch]

There are plenty of reasons to worry about Chinese-owned companies, too.

You might want to reconsider your perspective on China and Chinese-owned companies.

Well, once again I'm confused. Why do I write the things I write, if they are not going to be read?

[Herbert Derp]

Well, once again I'm confused. Why do I write the things I write, if they are not going to be read?

Point taken. But you did say you support global trade, that the Chinese weren’t (directly?) undermining the US, and you are a (happy?) customer of many Chinese companies.

I provided a counterexample of how a prominent Chinese company is undermining the rules based global order as well as the US government. I think the point is valid.

[neo von retorch]

Right, no disagreement that Chinese (state) propaganda (particularly TikTok) contributes in some immeasurable way to the flood of disinformation that has decimated our democracy, because people voting doesn't matter if it's just doing the bidding of the most powerful propaganda machine. I don't think TikTok is the most powerful propaganda machine in the U.S. It's just one of many.

TikTok: The United States has the highest number of monthly active users at approximately 65.9 million MAU source

News Platform Fact Sheet (Pew Research)

Social Media and News Fact Sheet (Pew Research)

And while information about China as a country, and the companies within -- relies on the same mechanisms of information conveyance as propaganda in general, it's difficult to know exactly how China as a country and Chinese companies interact. So yes we know China as a country absolutely invested in EV tech; presumably there's an obvious two-way exchange where the Chinese government benefits from Chinese car companies doing well. So, is purchasing a Chinese-manufactured then funneling money back to the Chinese government? While we can guess this stuff, I'd love to know how to know the reality. Put the yarn and push pins on the board and show me all the chess pieces.

All that being said, did China win the election for Trump? Why didn't they do that in 2020? (And when Democrats rigged the election in 2020, why didn't they do that in 2024? ;) Just being facetious.) To be more clear, while I've said it a dozen times in these forums, Musk is doing very real damage to our country, right now, very visible, very bad. There's a clear and easy line to see between Musk and Tesla and buying/owning a Tesla.

While there can be discussion about where each individual might want to draw their own line with activism in consumerism, Musk is so far over any line that it doesn't seem like I have to think very hard to see where on the line Tesla falls.

I find it much harder to see the clear line to delineate all products. Microsoft has done some stupid things, and their stewardship of Windows is awful. I'd really like to get away from Microsoft as a company, but playing games on Windows computers with people I love is also a significant social activity for me. It's hard to pull the plug on that. Microsoft products enable my job and my livelihood. It's not impossible to pick up and get out of the Microsoft ecosystem as a software developer, but personally I've been in it for all ~26 years of my adult career, so it wouldn't be trivial. It would be a lot harder than selling a used car and buying a different used car (something I've done 20+ times in my life!)

[Poundwise]

I haven't had the time to read this whole thread, but if I were a clever graphics artist, I would design a little logo, perhaps shaped like a Democrats donkey or the Resistance fist, have it cast in metal, and sell it to regretful Tesla owners like @EchoStache.  They could easily remove the Tesla T with these instructions and use adhesive to attach the new badge.  There are no laws as far as I know about removing/rebadging cars.

The price of the new badges should include a substantial ($1000+ ) donation to a leftist organization such as SwingLeft, Indivisible, or SisterDistrict, or to a candidate in a swing district.

[Scandium]

Personally, I believe in global trade and a world economy. I own a Chinese-made phone from a Chinese-owned company, and drive a Chinese-made car. Don't tell my dad. There are plenty of reasons to worry about Chinese-owned companies, too. Though at least they aren't (directly?) tearing my own country apart?

You might want to reconsider your perspective on China and Chinese-owned companies.

I believe that China used TikTok to influence the election and help elect Donald Trump. How about all those “Free Palestine” leftists who stayed home during the election because Kamala supported Israel? Where were they getting their news from?

Anyone who gets (and believe) any news from tiktok is too stupid to function. These people would never make any rational decisions anyway, no matter the news source. Trying to pad all the sharp corners of modern society to protect these imbeciles is totally futile, so I don't see why we even bother. Ban one thing, and they'll go stick forks in the outlets anyway. 

[ATtiny85]

Personally, I believe in global trade and a world economy. I own a Chinese-made phone from a Chinese-owned company, and drive a Chinese-made car. Don't tell my dad. There are plenty of reasons to worry about Chinese-owned companies, too. Though at least they aren't (directly?) tearing my own country apart?

You might want to reconsider your perspective on China and Chinese-owned companies.

I believe that China used TikTok to influence the election and help elect Donald Trump. How about all those “Free Palestine” leftists who stayed home during the election because Kamala supported Israel? Where were they getting their news from?

Anyone who gets (and believe) any news from tiktok is too stupid to function. These people would never make any rational decisions anyway, no matter the news source. Trying to pad all the sharp corners of modern society to protect these imbeciles is totally futile, so I don't see why we even bother. Ban one thing, and they'll go stick forks in the outlets anyway.

Well said. It’s very difficult to fix stupid. When I read the doom and gloom stormtroopers are coming threads, I often think “the tiktok folks, makers and consumers, would really struggle to do anything worthwhile in the event of an actual problem.”

[neo von retorch]

https://hachyderm.io/@inthehands/114093623096181343

OK, from the replies, some useful tidbits:

- To end a Tesla lease early, you don’t have to pay the full amount remaining — only the balance •minus• the car’s current resale value.

- Cars depreciate, so you’ll lose some money. But…

- …if the used market is dropping fast, Tesla’s official resale value will probably lag behind reality. Thus breaking a lease actually •can• take money straight out of Tesla’s pockets.

See also:

https://hachyderm.io/@inthehands/114089737787084906

https://actionnetwork.org/event_campaigns/teslatakedown

[Daley]

Just going to leave this here:

Polestar's 'Trade In Your Tesla' $20,000 Deal Is Already A Hit
Tesla owners are getting fed up with the brand. Polestar wants to reel them in, and it seems to be working.

[Just Joe]

Any German company that's been around since before 1945 has a connection to Nazi's.  Any Japanese company that existed before 1945 had a connection to the Empire of Japan.  Mitsubishi's past isn't great.

GM profited from the Nazis too. They were separated from their subsidiary Opel for the duration of the war but in the end, the profits created during the war went back into the GM bank accounts.

All those situations were a long time ago. Elon is a right now problem. Not sure what I'd do if I found myself in the ownership of a Tesla. I'd want to be rid of it, but the financial consequence would have to be taken into account. If I kept it, I would certainly be sporting some bumper stickers b/c I do want the world to know that I think Elon is a shitty person.

Quite seriously we actively avoided the brand b/c of the Elon factor long before his foray into MAGA land. Vehicles are expensive, we buy them for the long term. Elon is too impulsive for us. I worried we might buy a vehicle that we could not buy parts for in a few short years. I might as well buy a Maserati or Mitsubishi if I wanted those kinds of problems.

[neo von retorch]

Musk’s embrace of right-wing politics risks turning off car buyers and sinking Tesla’s stock

Tesla sales plunged 45% in Europe in January

The sales numbers were particularly bad in Germany and France in January, down roughly 60% each, more than the average decline for the more than two-dozen European countries surveyed. Sales in France fell another 26% in February.

Sales of Tesla’s Model 3 dropped 33% across all European countries even though that car is not being updated and there is no reason for buyers to wait

As of Friday, it (Tesla’s stock) has dropped 37% since its Inauguration Day, a loss of $550 billion in investor wealth.

[spartana]

Today I saw a Tesla Model X and the metal Tesla "T" emblem on the rear had been turned upside down so it basicly looked like it was giving you the finger. Reddit said it's used as  an anti-Elon indicator that basicly says Fuck You Elon Musk.

AI Overview:

On Reddit, a Tesla emblem turned upside down is generally interpreted as a sign of discontent or protest against Tesla; it's a way for users to express negativity towards the company, its practices, or its CEO, Elon Musk, often related to issues like customer service, safety concerns, or perceived unethical behavior.

[sonofsven]

Today I saw a Tesla Model X and the metal Tesla "T" emblem on the rear had been turned upside down so it basicly looked like it was giving you the finger. Reddit said it's used as  an anti-Elon indicator that basicly says Fuck You Elon Musk.

AI Overview:

On Reddit, a Tesla emblem turned upside down is generally interpreted as a sign of discontent or protest against Tesla; it's a way for users to express negativity towards the company, its practices, or its CEO, Elon Musk, often related to issues like customer service, safety concerns, or perceived unethical behavior.

Counterpoint: I saw a blacked out Tesla ( I think an S? I'm not sure) with  a large "DARK ENLIGHTENMENT" script on the back window.
Look that up if you don't know what it means.

[Cranky]

Today I saw a Tesla Model X and the metal Tesla "T" emblem on the rear had been turned upside down so it basicly looked like it was giving you the finger. Reddit said it's used as  an anti-Elon indicator that basicly says Fuck You Elon Musk.

AI Overview:

On Reddit, a Tesla emblem turned upside down is generally interpreted as a sign of discontent or protest against Tesla; it's a way for users to express negativity towards the company, its practices, or its CEO, Elon Musk, often related to issues like customer service, safety concerns, or perceived unethical behavior.

I’ve always thought that T looked like a tiny IUD which is a strange thing to put on a car, but it’s a strange car. But I’ve recently seen several without the T so either they have stopped using it or people are taking them off.

[bacchi]

Today I saw a Tesla Model X and the metal Tesla "T" emblem on the rear had been turned upside down so it basicly looked like it was giving you the finger. Reddit said it's used as  an anti-Elon indicator that basicly says Fuck You Elon Musk.

AI Overview:

On Reddit, a Tesla emblem turned upside down is generally interpreted as a sign of discontent or protest against Tesla; it's a way for users to express negativity towards the company, its practices, or its CEO, Elon Musk, often related to issues like customer service, safety concerns, or perceived unethical behavior.

Counterpoint: I saw a blacked out Tesla ( I think an S? I'm not sure) with  a large "DARK ENLIGHTENMENT" script on the back window.
Look that up if you don't know what it means.

In the Dark Enlightenment, the peasants would set that car on fire.

[Luke Warm]

This might be a great time to develop a kit car based on a Tesla platform. Tesla disguised as a Ferrari or Cobra

[GuitarStv]

This might be a great time to develop a kit car based on a Tesla platform. Tesla disguised as a Ferrari or Cobra

I've always loved the styling of an 80's civic hatchback myself, but think it might be too small a body to fit over a Tesla.

[Poundwise]

I haven't had the time to read this whole thread, but if I were a clever graphics artist, I would design a little logo, perhaps shaped like a Democrats donkey or the Resistance fist, have it cast in metal, and sell it to regretful Tesla owners like @EchoStache.  They could easily remove the Tesla T with these instructions and use adhesive to attach the new badge.  There are no laws as far as I know about removing/rebadging cars.

The price of the new badges should include a substantial ($1000+ ) donation to a leftist organization such as SwingLeft, Indivisible, or SisterDistrict, or to a candidate in a swing district.

I still think it would be very aggravating to Musk if his Tesla symbols were replaced with another symbol that meant that a large donation had been made to something that he hates.

[spartana]

This might be a great time to develop a kit car based on a Tesla platform. Tesla disguised as a Ferrari or Cobra

Or, ya know, a real truck.

[RetiredAt63]

This might be a great time to develop a kit car based on a Tesla platform. Tesla disguised as a Ferrari or Cobra

Or, ya know, a real truck.

Have you seen the videos of them in winter driving conditions?  They are hilarious.   However, I keep wondering if people are using all season tires when they should have switched to winter tires.  They sure look like all season lack of tread results.

I'm assuming that like any other road safe vehicle they can take winter tires?