PTSD from terminations fuels my FIRE goals

[MrThatsDifferent]

Was doing some reflecting and it’s kinda dawned on me that, yes, I want to FIRE so I have more freedom to explore the world, but really, I just want to be protected if I’m ever fired again. I have a pretty healthy ego and have accomplished quite a bit, yet while thinking about my career, I’ve been fired from 8 different jobs. Of those 8, only one was deserved (the second one because I didn’t know what I was doing, and was faking it the whole time, while getting paid well—I was quite young too). Each termination caught me by surprise because I generally bring lots of value to the organizations I work for. In truth though, I thrive because I’m bold, but sometimes that works against me and I clash with people. The worst part has been, each time I was fired, I barely had savings to get me through. I’ve never been good with money and thought the goal was to spend it as quickly as you get it on whatever you want. Luckily, I’ve been good at finding new work, often that pays more and better. It wasn’t as traumatic when I was younger, because it was just me, but when I got married, I was fired from 3 jobs and it was devastating each time, I felt like a failure in front of the person I loved. MMM came along for me the year after I started my current job, and this is the longest I’ve worked anywhere and I moved up quickly. I’m still terrified of being fired, so I’m so focused on FIRE so that 1. I will survive if it happens again and not panic, and 2. I get out before they fire me. At this point though, it would be tough to actually fire me, unless I physically assaulted someone or stole something. However, I’m still scared. For me FIRE is safety, even more than freedom. That never occurred to me until today. I couldn’t be more grateful for discovering MMM and this community, helping to keep my demons at bay.

[MilesTeg]

As someone who manages people in highly technical positions:

If you are unable to work well with the rest of your team, you are a detriment no matter your personal contribution.

I learned that the hard way, trying to hold on to "high performers" even if they could not 'play well with others'.

Sounds like what you most need to do is work on people and teamwork skills.

[Sibley]

"I thrive because I’m bold, but sometimes that works against me and I clash with people." - That's code for something. Not willing to follow procedure, not willing to play well with others, full on asshole, something.

Getting fired 8 times tells me that you have some serious self-reflection to do. Because you've been fired 8 times. That's you, not the job. So, great that you're saving money to put yourself in a better financial position. Do not neglect the personal growth that is necessary for you to be even semi-successful. At some point, you're going to be un-hireable, even with strong technical skills.

(Note, laid off does not equal firing, they are very different.)

[slappy]

"I thrive because I’m bold, but sometimes that works against me and I clash with people." - That's code for something. Not willing to follow procedure, not willing to play well with others, full on asshole, something.

Getting fired 8 times tells me that you have some serious self-reflection to do. Because you've been fired 8 times. That's you, not the job. So, great that you're saving money to put yourself in a better financial position. Do not neglect the personal growth that is necessary for you to be even semi-successful. At some point, you're going to be un-hireable, even with strong technical skills.

(Note, laid off does not equal firing, they are very different.)

How is he already not hireable? I would think more than 1 firing would make it very difficult to get hired, never mind 8 firings.

[rantk81]

holy cow... 8 job terminations (whether firing or layoff)?

Not sure you can use the "it's them, not me" excuse in this case...

[soccerluvof4]

Hate to Jump on the Bandwagon but no choice here. Perhaps with this last job having been promoted and been there awhile you have made some strides but I think some worry is due. You have received a lot more chances than most I would think so I agree with the above posters in some self reflection and working on yourself might be all you need to keep your job this time. Be a good place to start.

[Here4theGB]

I've never heard of someone getting fired even as many as 3 times, much less 8.  Congrats on at least being really good at getting fired?

[mtn]

Depends on the industry, and even the company. I've been fired once (knock on wood, the only time) and I had come to find out after 2 months of being there that it was sort of how the manager (president of US operations for said company) operated. In the year prior to my being there, he'd fired 3 people, I was the 4th. This was in a company that had a US corporate office (not counting the front-line, retail employees) of 6 including the president, 11 including the sales reps.

Similarly, it is not uncommon in certain industries to fire people as a power move. Car dealerships come to mind. New GM comes in and will can a few salespeople just because (obviously it isn't "just because", but... it is).


But yeah, I'd be looking hard at myself if it was 8 times.

[dignam]

Not to be an ass...well, actually to be an ass, the only common denominator to your past firings is you.

You can be a genius/talented worker, but it doesn't matter at all if you're a pain in the ass to work with.

Yes, I'm jumping to conclusions; but willing to take that gamble here ;)

[use2betrix]

I’ve been fired from 8 different jobs. Of those 8, only one was deserved.. 

I think you have some real self-actualization to do. Virtually no one gets fired from 8 jobs and only have “one be deserved.”

You don’t get to be bold/clash with others unless you also have their respect. It sounds like you weren’t valued/respected, in which case you were fired.

There is a craft to being “bold” and you have to have a successful reputation within your company to go against the grain. My boss, who I admire as much as anyone I’ve ever worked with, is the friendliest, calmest, most laid back guy I’ve ever met. He’s also insanely smart and seems to know everything about everything. Being around him is a chance to just soak up that knowledge.

Our personalities are polar opposites. I’m very high strung, anxious, brash with people, and really go against the grain. Fortunately, I am also thought very highly of among the groups (internally amongst our company). Because of this, I can get away with being brash. Just last year, my company gave me a $15/hr pay raise without even having to ask for it, and has continually extended my contract.

Sounds like you have a long ways to earn the respect before you are allowed to get away with being “bold.”

[ysette9]

@MrThatsDifferent - do you have a mentor or coach? Someone trusted who you can go to for feedback? It is really hard to ask for constructive feedback so the first step is to have a safe space with someone you trust. In the past I’ve had someone a trust, a mentor, approach people and ask for constructive feedback on my behalf. The idea is to have a neutral third party collect feedback so people can be honest. That person then culls the feedback to look for trends and goes back to me with useful, actionable tips.

That may be something to consider as approaching people directly will rarely get you honest and helpful feedback.

[DrinkCoffeeStackMoney]

I currently oversee the day to day operations for my employer and I manage about 40 people.
I've said repeatedly that I'd much rather have an employee that is a joy to work with and hit's 90% of expectations than an overachiever who's a pain in my ass every day. I've let two people go in that last year that were two of my most productive employees, but they both acted like children and were constantly complaining. Negativity is the cancer of the workplace and if left untreated, it spreads fast.

[Metalcat]

I’ve been fired from 8 different jobs. Of those 8, only one was deserved.. 

I think you have some real self-actualization to do. Virtually no one gets fired from 8 jobs and only have “one be deserved.”

You don’t get to be bold/clash with others unless you also have their respect. It sounds like you weren’t valued/respected, in which case you were fired.

There is a craft to being “bold” and you have to have a successful reputation within your company to go against the grain. My boss, who I admire as much as anyone I’ve ever worked with, is the friendliest, calmest, most laid back guy I’ve ever met. He’s also insanely smart and seems to know everything about everything. Being around him is a chance to just soak up that knowledge.

Our personalities are polar opposites. I’m very high strung, anxious, brash with people, and really go against the grain. Fortunately, I am also thought very highly of among the groups (internally amongst our company). Because of this, I can get away with being brash. Just last year, my company gave me a $15/hr pay raise without even having to ask for it, and has continually extended my contract.

Sounds like you have a long ways to earn the respect before you are allowed to get away with being “bold.”

I'm going to take a wild guess that OP is nowhere near as aggressively bold as I am in the workplace, which I get away with because I'm so valued and respected by my employers and coworkers.
Oh, and I'm a woman, so my boldness is even more egregious.

I can firmly say that being bold does not get one fired, being bold without being a great team player does.

@MrThatsDifferent , I would strongly recommend reflecting more on why it is you think you've clashed with your coworkers, and what the underlying source of the problem is. As @ysette9 suggested, a mentor or coach would be a great resource. This is a solvable problem, you can be assured of that, you just have to start with identifying what the problem actually is, and it isn't being bold.

[EliteZags]

OP would you mind giving some more detail of the situations and reasons you were told for the terminations?

also how were you able to explain/writeoff all the previous terminations in the proceeding interviews/CV?

[MoseyingAlong]

I'm don't think the OP was looking for a bunch of suggestions to solve a problem he didn't ask for help with. Instead he seemed to be sharing an insight he'd reached about his motivations, maybe to see if anyone else shared it.

And yes, at least one of us does. I've never been fired from a job but the security of being FI and not dependent on a job is huge and has made my life a lot less stressful. OP, hope you reach that point soon. It's huge!

[mozar]

I've been fired about 5 times. Mostly because people profoundly disliked me as a person. My work was always fine. I realized I was never going to fit in with the people in that particular career path and changed fields. But I was high paid and I was able to save enough fu money to put me in a better mental space to look at career options.

[MaybeBabyMustache]

Agree with both @Malkynn & @ysette9

FWIW, I'm someone who is a objectively a really high performer at work (based on perf scores, promotion ratings, etc.) I work hard to evaluate what I'm doing, how to grow & develop, which styles I'm using that are not helping me at work, how I can invest in an area that I'm currently weak in, etc. I do this because I enjoy the growth, and also find it helps me in my personal life. There's a lot of carryover in things like managing stress, having difficult conversations, prioritization, etc that benefit all of life, not just work.

I get being bold, but you have to know how to do that, when to do that, and who will give you candid feedback on your delivery. Do you have that? What you see as bold, others are clearly seeing as something else.

[Bloop Bloop]

Please don’t use the term PTSD flippantly. It’s a real psychological injury that devastates lives. Just as being tidy does not mean that you have OCD, being anxious does not mean that you have PTSD. Your lack of respect may have something to do with your many dismissals.

I agree with this, though I wouldn't necessarily link it to the dismissals.

I am however reminded of the old story about driving down the highway -

A wife calls her husband and says, "Honey, be careful, the news just reported there's one vehicle driving the wrong way down the freeway!"

Her husband replies, "One car? There's about 80 of them!"

[MrThatsDifferent]

I'm don't think the OP was looking for a bunch of suggestions to solve a problem he didn't ask for help with. Instead he seemed to be sharing an insight he'd reached about his motivations, maybe to see if anyone else shared it.

And yes, at least one of us does. I've never been fired from a job but the security of being FI and not dependent on a job is huge and has made my life a lot less stressful. OP, hope you reach that point soon. It's huge!

Thanks for this. Wow! Was not expecting the hate or judgement. I was making myself a bit vulnerable by sharing this sure, but in the context of me understanding how FIRE and MMM fit into my life. I thought it was freedom, but no, it’s fear of being vulnerable again in case something happens like before.

I don’t have a problem that needs to be managed, nor do I need a coach or to work on anything in particular. I’ve held my current role for a bit now, I get along with most in the org, I have a significant role, manage a very large department and get consistently great feedback. I’m also with an organization that’s a great fit for my skill set, and vice-versa. But anyways, this wasn’t about my terminations, but it was very much about FIRE.

As for PTSD, sorry but you don’t get to define that for me. I know what that fear and depression is like. I know it follows me. I also know that FIRE keeps it at bay and brings enormous comfort and strength.

Surprised that so many of you felt the need to attack me and my character for sharing my insights and life. Appreciate the ones that recognized this for how I intended it.

[Paul der Krake]

I've been put on the firing line before, and agree that it's very unpleasant. 0/5 stars, not going there ever again.

Without piling on, I'm just curious to know how old you are, and whether you've left any jobs voluntarily.

[MrThatsDifferent]

I've been put on the firing line before, and agree that it's very unpleasant. 0/5 stars, not going there ever again.

Without piling on, I'm just curious to know how old you are, and whether you've left any jobs voluntarily.

It’s rare for me to share personal information like this. I wasn’t asking for advice or sympathy so details are unimportant. Again, the sole point was to share a recent insight, with a context (there’s obviously lots of details and background for each one, but again, not the point of the post), and share my thanks to MMM and the community for giving me tools to manage my fears, and strengthen my financial position. That’s it. There is no current issue with my work situation that needs discussed, save that even though I’m relatively safe, that fear lives in the back of my mind, and I’m so grateful that, if it were to ever happen again, I’d be ok. All life is learning and growth if you’re willing to do the work, change and pick yourself up from setbacks.

[ysette9]

There is no current issue with my work situation that needs discussed, save that even though I’m relatively safe, that fear lives in the back of my mind, and I’m so grateful that, if it were to ever happen again, I’d be ok. All life is learning and growth if you’re willing to do the work, change and pick yourself up from setbacks.

That’s cool, as you wish. Good luck.

Just so you understand why people were piling on, from the outside we see you sharing your fear of being stuck in a box and how you derive comfort from building this FIRE axe that is helping you break free of the box. That is great, but we also find ourselves wondering why you keep getting yourself stuck in a box to begin with. There are two ways out of this pickle that cause you fear and worry: one is to smash the box with your FIRE axe and the other is to being willing to do the growth and learning, as you say, to avoid finding yourself in a box in the first place.

[wageslave23]

As for PTSD, sorry but you don’t get to define that for me. I know what that fear and depression is like. I know it follows me. I also know that FIRE keeps it at bay and brings enormous comfort and strength.

You're right that I can't be certain whether or not you have PTSD - and neither can you. Only a trained psychiatrist can make the diagnosis of PTSD. Just because you say a thing does not make the thing real. PTSD involves a physical change to the amygdala which changes how you respond to stimuli. You have my sympathy for your fear and depression, but until you get a diagnosis by a professional, you should speak about your symptoms rather than self-diagnose the cause. Correlation does not equate causation.

Depression is also a diagnosis.  We get the gist of what he is trying to convey.

[EliteZags]

It may be pretty helpful to others if you could share how you were able to circumvent all the previous terminations in all the successful interviews for new positions, actually impressed you were able to explain/dodge your way out of up to 8 terminations on your CV to get this job?

[MrThatsDifferent]

As for PTSD, sorry but you don’t get to define that for me. I know what that fear and depression is like. I know it follows me. I also know that FIRE keeps it at bay and brings enormous comfort and strength.

You're right that I can't be certain whether or not you have PTSD - and neither can you. Only a trained psychiatrist can make the diagnosis of PTSD. Just because you say a thing does not make the thing real. PTSD involves a physical change to the amygdala which changes how you respond to stimuli. You have my sympathy for your fear and depression, but until you get a diagnosis by a professional, you should speak about your symptoms rather than self-diagnose the cause. Correlation does not equate causation.

Unless of course I have a background in psychology.

[MrThatsDifferent]

There is no current issue with my work situation that needs discussed, save that even though I’m relatively safe, that fear lives in the back of my mind, and I’m so grateful that, if it were to ever happen again, I’d be ok. All life is learning and growth if you’re willing to do the work, change and pick yourself up from setbacks.

That’s cool, as you wish. Good luck.

Just so you understand why people were piling on, from the outside we see you sharing your fear of being stuck in a box and how you derive comfort from building this FIRE axe that is helping you break free of the box. That is great, but we also find ourselves wondering why you keep getting yourself stuck in a box to begin with. There are two ways out of this pickle that cause you fear and worry: one is to smash the box with your FIRE axe and the other is to being willing to do the growth and learning, as you say, to avoid finding yourself in a box in the first place.

No, people piled on because some here are quick judge imperfection and interpret some things as weaknesses, deserving of face punches, without understanding everything, which would be difficult unless I covered everything.  Again, if my post was—I’ve been fired 8 times and can’t get a job, please help—I’d get it. I didn’t write anything close to that, but if I hadn’t shared the context, no one would have gotten why the fear of being fired, which at this point, is realistically irrational, still lives in my brain, but the concept of FIRE has been a panacea.

Your analogy of a box doesn’t apply as you still miss that I am gainfully employed, can’t be fired easily, and I’m a well respected, valued leader of an organization. I honestly wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t from what I’ve learned in the past, each role led to another that brought me here—perfect role that will be the one I retire from. I’ve learned from and processed everything I need to from the past. I keep learning and processing from the good and bad that I do in this role, that’s exactly what you’re meant to do.

I was proud of my insight, because it hadn’t quite clicked before. That type of information is valuable for continued growth. And yet, so many of you tried to make me feel shame for something that wasn’t asked of you. You rushed to judge and fix a problem that wasn’t there, because that can be the way of this forum sometimes. I’m sure I’ve been guilty of that as well, and I’ll work on being more sympathetic in the future. All life is learning, if you’re doing it right.

[MrThatsDifferent]

It may be pretty helpful to others if you could share how you were able to circumvent all the previous terminations in all the successful interviews for new positions, actually impressed you were able to explain/dodge your way out of up to 8 terminations on your CV to get this job?

This wasn’t the point of my post. I haven’t provided any details regarding circumstances, length of time, when they occurred throughout my career, or redundancy vs terminations. I have an impressive CV and credentials. I’m very good at what I do.

Jobs end, and easiest explanation is, You moved on to something else, or that role was not the right fit. The secret is, never complain or talk badly about previous roles or managers. Never show your hurt or anger on interviews. Stay focused on what you did well, your achievements, the value you brought, the mistakes you made and how you learned from them, and you will cover everything you need to.

[dignam]

No, people piled on because some here are quick judge imperfection and interpret some things as weaknesses, deserving of face punches, without understanding everything, which would be difficult unless I covered everything.  Again, if my post was—I’ve been fired 8 times and can’t get a job, please help—I’d get it. I didn’t write anything close to that, but if I hadn’t shared the context, no one would have gotten why the fear of being fired, which at this point, is realistically irrational, still lives in my brain, but the concept of FIRE has been a panacea.

Nah, we're piling on because you shifted the blame of those firings (save one or two) from yourself to external factors...which is, at best, dubious.

I mean you're claiming "PTSD" from it, so it is essentially asking for help.  We're just saying to take a look in the mirror, that's all.

[MrThatsDifferent]

No, people piled on because some here are quick judge imperfection and interpret some things as weaknesses, deserving of face punches, without understanding everything, which would be difficult unless I covered everything.  Again, if my post was—I’ve been fired 8 times and can’t get a job, please help—I’d get it. I didn’t write anything close to that, but if I hadn’t shared the context, no one would have gotten why the fear of being fired, which at this point, is realistically irrational, still lives in my brain, but the concept of FIRE has been a panacea.

Nah, we're piling on because you shifted the blame of those firings (save one or two) from yourself to external factors...which is, at best, dubious.

I mean you're claiming "PTSD" from it, so it is essentially asking for help.  We're just saying to take a look in the mirror, that's all.

Asking for help, would be asking for help. Sharing that you’re suffering from something is not asking for help. I didn’t go into any details to shift blame. I know full well the circumstances of each incident. Regardless of whether I feel they’re justified or not, they occurred and the cumulative impact has affected my mental state to the point that I experience irrational anxiety that I will be fired again, even when all is well. That’s the history of my trauma. However, FIRE has helped.

What value is there for you and others to pile on someone who has exposed vulnerabilities, described dealing with trauma and reflecting on things that are helping to cope and overcome? All any of you have done is added to the trauma by reinforcing the sense of shame and failure through judgement and advice that wasn’t requested or needed. I’m not at risk of being fired, it just lives in the back of my mind. Unfortunate that you’re so wedded to justifying your attacks, that you fail to see or acknowledge that many of stepped over the line here. It’s easier for people to double down than simply admit, yep, got that wrong, see where you’re coming from. I won’t take anymore time to explain myself, if “pile on” is the best you have to offer for someone sharing insight on the value of MMM in their life, have at it.

[Villanelle]

Some helpful info on PTS vs PTSD: https://www.brainline.org/article/what-are-differences-between-pts-and-ptsd

[afox]

Although Ive never been "let go" from a job I think I really understand what the OP is saying and I think I get a smaller taste of that feeling every time Im treated unfairly at work, which Im sure happens to everyone. I never show my real feelings in a professional setting and instead use that energy (you could call it anger) as fuel to build a bigger nest egg and a better life for myself. This is why its called F-you money. As the nest egg has grown and Ive gotten older and gained more perspective and Ive gotten closer to meeting my FIRE goals, these negative experiences bother me less and less and now they generally only cause me a few minutes of discomfort while I take a step back to look at the big picture and realize the reality of the power dynamic at play (generally they need you more than you need them and if this is not true make it true), I then go happily about my day knowing that with or without the job my future is bright.

[achvfi]

Congrats OP for being on path to FIRE.

I have similar mindset, my FI-RE focus is for the sense of security it provides me and my family. I do believe many here are looking for the same.

I can't imagine repeated trauma you went through your layoffs or firings. Its no trivial matter. No one knows the full weight of another's burden.

Glad you are in better place now and on the path to FI.

[MrThatsDifferent]

Although Ive never been "let go" from a job I think I really understand what the OP is saying and I think I get a smaller taste of that feeling every time Im treated unfairly at work, which Im sure happens to everyone. I never show my real feelings in a professional setting and instead use that energy (you could call it anger) as fuel to build a bigger nest egg and a better life for myself. This is why its called F-you money. As the nest egg has grown and Ive gotten older and gained more perspective and Ive gotten closer to meeting my FIRE goals, these negative experiences bother me less and less and now they generally only cause me a few minutes of discomfort while I take a step back to look at the big picture and realize the reality of the power dynamic at play (generally they need you more than you need them and if this is not true make it true), I then go happily about my day knowing that with or without the job my future is bright.

Thank you for sharing. Yes, that sense of security, especially with building the FU stache is powerful (not there yet but getting there quickly).

[MrThatsDifferent]

Congrats OP for being on path to FIRE.

I have similar mindset, my FI-RE focus is for the sense of security it provides me and my family. I do believe many here are looking for the same.

I can't imagine repeated trauma you went through your layoffs or firings. Its no trivial matter. No one knows the full weight of another's burden.

Glad you are in better place now and on the path to FI.

Thank you for your kind words and empathy.

[ender]

Getting fired 8 times = strong WTF signal

Being laid off 8 times? Much less so.

Using precise language here can help with how people react.

[MrThatsDifferent]

Getting fired 8 times = strong WTF signal

Being laid off 8 times? Much less so.

Using precise language here can help with how people react.

I understand that you think it’s necessary for people to qualify their judgement or advice on something that was asked for, requested or needed. The trauma of being fired or laid off can be virtually the same, although being laid off may be mitigated by a payout. Nonetheless, I think people can take responsibility for how they react to people’s post on their own. You’re merely caught up in semantics to defend irresponsible responses.

[Bloop Bloop]

I think your posts in this thread have shown very little insight.

[MrThatsDifferent]

I think your posts in this thread have shown very little insight.

That you would think and express that position is not something that surprises me.

[Lucky13]

I was proud of my insight, because it hadn’t quite clicked before. That type of information is valuable for continued growth. And yet, so many of you tried to make me feel shame for something that wasn’t asked of you. You rushed to judge and fix a problem that wasn’t there, because that can be the way of this forum sometimes. I’m sure I’ve been guilty of that as well, and I’ll work on being more sympathetic in the future. All life is learning, if you’re doing it right.

Getting laid off or fired sucks; I doubt people who haven't experience this, or seen a family member or close friend go through it, can appreciate the damage it does to a person (financially, psychologically, etc). I agree this is one huge benefit of financial independence for me, not having to be vulnerable to finding myself unemployed (regardless or the reason) because I'll be voluntarily unemployed.

[MrThatsDifferent]

I was proud of my insight, because it hadn’t quite clicked before. That type of information is valuable for continued growth. And yet, so many of you tried to make me feel shame for something that wasn’t asked of you. You rushed to judge and fix a problem that wasn’t there, because that can be the way of this forum sometimes. I’m sure I’ve been guilty of that as well, and I’ll work on being more sympathetic in the future. All life is learning, if you’re doing it right.

Getting laid off or fired sucks; I doubt people who haven't experience this, or seen a family member or close friend go through it, can appreciate the damage it does to a person (financially, psychologically, etc). I agree this is one huge benefit of financial independence for me, not having to be vulnerable to finding myself unemployed (regardless or the reason) because I'll be voluntarily unemployed.

It really does give power back to the employee because that fear can have negative impacts at work, if you find yourself holding back because you’re too scared to rock the boat and risk your job.

[Sibley]

Getting fired 8 times = strong WTF signal

Being laid off 8 times? Much less so.

Using precise language here can help with how people react.

I understand that you think it’s necessary for people to qualify their judgement or advice on something that was asked for, requested or needed. The trauma of being fired or laid off can be virtually the same, although being laid off may be mitigated by a payout. Nonetheless, I think people can take responsibility for how they react to people’s post on their own. You’re merely caught up in semantics to defend irresponsible responses.

But they're not just semantics. Being fired and being laid off are completely different things, though they both result in no longer working at a place. Being fired means you are inherently at fault, you caused problems/didn't do a good job/etc. Being laid off means restructuring, financial problems, overstaffing, etc, and you lost your job due to factors other than your behavior or performance.

If you were fired 8 times, then my response above stands and you need to cut out the bs and take a very hard look in the mirror, most likely with a therapist to assist you given the epic levels of DARVO you're showing. If however you were laid off 8 times, then my response is very different. Which is it?

(DARVO - https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/DARVO)

[Much Fishing to Do]

I think this all sounds very normal for those in the FIRE community MrThatsDifferent, except maybe you bite your tongue less than others.  I always thought one of the great benefits of the uber saving supported by this community happens well before RE (that would generally be a long time to wait for a reward) as a cushion that takes away a lot of that fear and completely changes the mindset.  I did a lot of project work at one time and so have seen a lot of steady good paying work periods come to an abrupt end, many of which earlier than expected, and the difference between having 3 months of expenses in the bank and 3 years of expenses in the bank made all the difference to settling my fears/concerns/outlook.  The former meant a panicked and depressing rush to find the next thing, the latter meant a nice sabbatical before the next thing, though technically other than my bank account everything else was exactly the same.

[MrThatsDifferent]

Getting fired 8 times = strong WTF signal

Being laid off 8 times? Much less so.

Using precise language here can help with how people react.

I understand that you think it’s necessary for people to qualify their judgement or advice on something that was asked for, requested or needed. The trauma of being fired or laid off can be virtually the same, although being laid off may be mitigated by a payout. Nonetheless, I think people can take responsibility for how they react to people’s post on their own. You’re merely caught up in semantics to defend irresponsible responses.

But they're not just semantics. Being fired and being laid off are completely different things, though they both result in no longer working at a place. Being fired means you are inherently at fault, you caused problems/didn't do a good job/etc. Being laid off means restructuring, financial problems, overstaffing, etc, and you lost your job due to factors other than your behavior or performance.

If you were fired 8 times, then my response above stands and you need to cut out the bs and take a very hard look in the mirror, most likely with a therapist to assist you given the epic levels of DARVO you're showing. If however you were laid off 8 times, then my response is very different. Which is it?

(DARVO - https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/DARVO)

I admire your confidence in an assessment based on very little information, as well as your commitment to irrational judgments. Unfortunately I won’t be able to provide the details you need so you can continue to judge me. I’m still astounded though that you, and some select others, still seem to grasp that I’m referencing things in the past, that are not currently present as I’m permanently employed, well entrenched in my position and deeply valued in the organization (although there are days...). Now, whether a therapist could assist my PTSD around the past, is a different thing, and perhaps, but since discovering FIRE I have the means to protect myself, if the worst were to happen. That is powerful, and that I’m continually grateful for, your judgment notwithstanding.

[MrThatsDifferent]

I think this all sounds very normal for those in the FIRE community MrThatsDifferent, except maybe you bite your tongue less than others.  I always thought one of the great benefits of the uber saving supported by this community happens well before RE (that would generally be a long time to wait for a reward) as a cushion that takes away a lot of that fear and completely changes the mindset.  I did a lot of project work at one time and so have seen a lot of steady good paying work periods come to an abrupt end, many of which earlier than expected, and the difference between having 3 months of expenses in the bank and 3 years of expenses in the bank made all the difference to settling my fears/concerns/outlook.  The former meant a panicked and depressing rush to find the next thing, the latter meant a nice sabbatical before the next thing, though technically other than my bank account everything else was exactly the same.

Yes, that’s precisely it! And yes I would imagine this is the value for many. I guess for me I was surprised to realise how strong this feeling was, when I thought it was all about freedom, far moreso than security. When those panic, anxiety moments overtake me sometimes, I just calm myself down by looking at my NW spreadsheet and thinking: you’re ok, you’ve got plenty of money to go for years to find the next perfect job. I never appreciated this security when I was younger, but it means the world now.

[therethere]

MrThat'sDifferent - I just wanted to chime in and say, I feel you. This is my main driver for FI and I admit may not be healthy.

Between DH and I, we've never gone more than 2 years straight without one of us being out of work for 6+ months. It actually took me over 2.5 years to get a job the first time around. As such, I cannot think long term or fathom something like buying a house with that risk. I often think that one of us could be without of a job any week or month. I act as if we ever left our jobs we'd never be able to get a new one. I would have described it just the way you did. I don't care if it isn't clinically diagnosed but the depression, PTS (whatever you want to call it), and anxiety over it is real.

After a certain point laid off does feel like firing and can be pretty close. It's culling the herd getting rid of the less useful/profitable first. Maybe they didn't file a performance plan first but it still means they had reasons to let you go with no real notice. If you're not having a problem with your job now just ignore those giving unsolicited advice.

[MrThatsDifferent]

MrThat'sDifferent - I just wanted to chime in and say, I feel you. This is my main driver for FI and I admit may not be healthy.

Between DH and I, we've never gone more than 2 years straight without one of us being out of work for 6+ months. It actually took me over 2.5 years to get a job the first time around. As such, I cannot think long term or fathom something like buying a house with that risk. I often think that one of us could be without of a job any week or month. I act as if we ever left our jobs we'd never be able to get a new one. I would have described it just the way you did. I don't care if it isn't clinically diagnosed but the depression, PTS (whatever you want to call it), and anxiety over it is real.

After a certain point laid off does feel like firing and can be pretty close. It's culling the herd getting rid of the less useful/profitable first. Maybe they didn't file a performance plan first but it still means they had reasons to let you go with no real notice. If you're not having a problem with your job now just ignore those giving unsolicited advice.

I feel you too and that’s so rough and it definitely chips away at your confidence, as you find yourself constantly looking over your shoulder, scared of what’s next. Glad you discovered MMM too and building your NW to not just survive if something like that happens, but to get to a place where you’re not dependent on work at all, work becomes an optional luxury, not a necessity. All the best to you in that journey.

And thank you for the support with those providing the unsolicited advice. I have to remind myself of the mantra on receiving advice that I share with others: take what works for you, and leave the rest.

[HBFIRE]

I think people have been unnecessarily harsh in this thread, pretty messed up.  Being terminated or laid off is a tramatic event, and it's absolutely a motivator for achieving FI.  That was the only point of OP's thread - we should stick to that.

[MrThatsDifferent]

I think people have been unnecessarily harsh in this thread, pretty messed up.  Being terminated or laid off is a tramatic event, and it's absolutely a motivator for achieving FI.  That was the only point of OP's thread - we should stick to that.

Thank you!

[EliteZags]

to be fair I think the perceived "attacks" may actually be trying to help evaluate the underlying issue since

Each termination caught me by surprise

but the 9th time is the charm?

[MrThatsDifferent]

to be fair I think the perceived "attacks" may actually be trying to help evaluate the underlying issue since

Each termination caught me by surprise

but the 9th time is the charm?

You’re not being fair, you’re being rude and snarky, while adding no value or anything of substance. Instead of working of the presumption that I’m damaged goods, based on your very limited understanding of what occurred in the past, maybe focus on all the information that I’ve given you regarding my current role?  And if, as you say, there will be a 9th time, well guess what, I’ll be ok and can handle it financially—that was the whole point of the post. Guess you’re going to have to try something new to make me feel low, instead of adding value and supporting a community member.