Author Topic: Is College/University Worth It? Seriously.  (Read 32070 times)

wing117

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 148
  • Age: 37
  • Location: North Carolina
Is College/University Worth It? Seriously.
« on: July 23, 2013, 07:05:45 AM »
Looking around I see a LOT of people with the following generic scenarios: "34, married, $30,000 left in student loan debt" or "26, single, $200,000 in student loan debt"

These prices are INSANE to me and shows just a glimmer into how broken the US education system is. I am a long standing supporter of open, free and cheap education and questioning the classical "I must go to college to not flip burgers". I personally hold no college degree (27 credit hours before I realized how useless the education was). I believe some careers should absolutely require professional training and checks - Architects, Engineers, Doctors, etc... (notice I did not say college specifically) But there are hundreds, if not thousands, of high paying careers that would benefit from an apprentice/master style learning and most of the knowledge for these careers can be learned independently as well.

Yes, getting by HR's straight and narrow vision is a little more difficult at first, but I assure you it's very possible to be incredibly successful without a college degree. I've been my departments hiring manager for two separate companies and I can say without a doubt, those who have taken the non-college path have usually been more up to date, driven, independent and passionate about their work. It was very rare I hired a college student or a recent grad. (Disclaimer: My experience is in IT Administration/Support/Architecture/Programming)

There are tons of resources out there now to learn everything from your basic mathematics (up through Calc) and whole college courses available online (Khan Academy, Coursera, udacity, LearnStreet, Codecademy, etc...).

So my very serious questions are: Is college (the time, cost and energy) worth it? What's the break point? What career paths should always going through a college system; which ones should be removed and different system setup? What type of learning systems should take place of college (classic apprenticeship, on job learning, community-based learning, self taught, etc...)?

rtrnow

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 323
Re: Is College/University Worth It? Seriously.
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2013, 07:25:25 AM »
As with a lot of questions, I think the answer is it depends. In MOST professional jobs a degree will help get your foot in the door and will also help with a higher starting salary. I think you're right that often times those who worked their way up are more driven because they have/had to be to get where they are now.

On the topic of education costs, it is only that expensive if you let it be. There are plenty of stories around here of people with lots of student loan debt and also plenty of us that graduated with none. The bigger issue to me is that loans are made easily available to a group of people often unaware of the what the loans will mean to their financial future. I graduated with my undergrad in computer science in five years alternating school and full time work semesters. This is an option available at most schools. I got a lot of experience and made good money ($16/hr) while being a student. This put me in a position to graduate with a couple K in the bank and no debt.

It is very possible to get a great college education with going in debt even in the US. You just have to work at it.


rubybeth

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1389
  • Location: Midwest
Re: Is College/University Worth It? Seriously.
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2013, 07:39:08 AM »
32, married, $9k left in student loan debt :)

As someone with a BA and a master's degree, I would say it's worth it but only if you are willing to put in the work and really understand if the degree is required for what you want to do. For me, it was a requirement (I'm a librarian and the professional requirement is an ALA accredited master's degree) and I wholeheartedly believe that I would not have the job I have without the degree. But, I am the first to caution people about master's degrees not always being worth it, especially in my field. A degree won't necessarily lead to a job in that field, depending on a lot of other factors over which you have no control. The same could be true of a BA, except there are a lot of jobs that just want you to have a BA, regardless of what it's in, because of the idea that a liberal arts degree makes you a well-rounded person, and that can be proven easily with a diploma. Agree or disagree with that, but it's how a lot of people think.

I got promoted from a paraprofessional library job to a professional job just four months after graduating, with little directly related experience but a lot of general work experience in libraries.  But the degree gave me legitimacy and is required by most libraries (or at least most libraries where I'd want to work). My BA is in English, and while that's a dying degree, it did help me develop better writing skills, which help me in my job every day; I find writing much easier and do it a lot faster than many of my colleagues, and since so much of every job is spent just communicating with people, I am glad I have the degree. I'm also glad my parents paid for me to go to state school and graduate with no debt from undergrad.


cynthia1848

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 156
Re: Is College/University Worth It? Seriously.
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2013, 07:46:50 AM »
There is about a 3.5 percentage point gap between the unemployment rate of college graduates (under 4%) and that of high school graduates (7.5%).  At the peak of the recession the gap was much larger - 5% vs 11%.  This is in the US.  On average, a college degree makes you quite a bit more likely to be hired.

My job requires a college and graduate degree.  I had no student loans, luckily.

Rebecca Stapler

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 907
    • Stapler Confessions
Re: Is College/University Worth It? Seriously.
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2013, 07:49:44 AM »
I think you are in a niche market, where someone can do really well if they have the skills -- regardless of whether they acquired them on their own or with a degree. My spouse is a self-taught programmer and is making more $$ than I am as a lawyer.

For the person who is not interested in programming or another skills-based field, I think the college degree is important. Whether they need to give up their first born to pay for it is a different issue: There are good community colleges and public universities, there are merit scholarships and need-based financial assistance, Resident Advisor positions that pay your room and board, and parents can plan for paying for an education by putting $$ away in a tax-sheltered account. Both my spouse and I left undergrad with about $5k in student loans. That's it.

It was law school that saddled us with debt, and even that debt could have been mitigated. I was offered a fabulous scholarship at a comparable law school, but I turned it down for regrettable reasons. Scholarships are out there if you're well qualified and meet a demographic need (I was out of state). Lawyers do need undergraduate and professional training. Three years of law school does seem like overkill though, at least the way that it's currently structured. Two years of learning plus one year of clinical work would be my preferred model. 

Signed,
35, married, with $200k in student loans

renbutler

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 384
  • Location: Midwest USA
Re: Is College/University Worth It? Seriously.
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2013, 07:56:04 AM »
Sure, you can get better jobs and make more money with a college degree.

But is the college education worth the money on its own merits?

I attended a major Midwestern private university on 50% scholarship. Even though the school has a good reputation, it seemed like the bulk of my money was going to beautiful grounds and facilities and the college "experience," with only a handful of really useful, educational classes.

I've heard similar stories from others, but perhaps it's just anecdotal. Thankfully, I didn't have to deal with too much of the indoctrination that others have experienced in college.

It would be nice if college were more like advanced vocational schools. Get rid of the frills, and focus on education. Offer the "experience" as an option for those who want it.

Joshin

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 145
Re: Is College/University Worth It? Seriously.
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2013, 08:03:48 AM »
I think the system becomes broken in high school. Not every student is on a college track nor needs to be. I'm not sure how it is today, but back in my high school years the entire point of those four years was college prep. Never mind the students that would never need college and would have done better with learning a trade. I know we have one public high school in town that focuses on trades -- everything from medical tech to auto-body repair in addition to gen ed requirements -- but most schools focus just on the final product of college and lose a lot of students along the way.

College is often a product sold to a captive and nervous audience at a vulnerable moment in their lives. Why are there so many liberal arts majors? Because we were convinced we had to go to college for something or fail for the rest of our lives. Fortunately I got out without student loan debt, but most of my compatriots didn't.

My sis has a pointless art degree and the student loans to prove it. Yes, she's an artist, but by her own admittance all art school really taught her was how to take moodily lit pictures of deodorant. Her husband is an engineer. His degree has paid off tenfold so in his case it is worth it. I'm a writer, and I really didn't need a degree to become one. It's not even mentioned in my bio and I don't think an editor anywhere has ever asked me if I attended college. Maybe if I had gone into journalism, but for my niche not so much. In fact, what I should have done was spent a year becoming a master gardener then continuing my education through free and inexpensive classes through that program. That was never even laid on the table as an option when I was 17. It was college or flippin' burgers.

What's sad is I have friends with HSers paying for AP classes so they can earn college credit early. Our state has a wonderful program that allows a high school student to earn an associate's degree and a HS diploma simultaneously at a community college their junior and senior year, with no cost other than books. Most parents and kids have never heard of the program, and those that have "don't want to cripple their kids with a community college degree," or "but he'll miss out on dorm life and frats!" Never mind that some very prestigious schools regularly recruit higher ed students from our local community college, which also features many of the same teachers that work at the local 4-year state college.

jba302

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 622
Re: Is College/University Worth It? Seriously.
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2013, 08:04:53 AM »
30, married, started with $13k in debt and now $2,800 left in student debt making minimum payments on 2.2% APR since graduation. I am new to this "smart money" thing :).

I think a problem is that we are only talking about the "business job" model, which I hate but am a part of. It just requires a vague skill set to do most of these jobs - able to think, sit at a desk for 9 hours without losing your shit, communicate as a normal human, have a decent grasp on non-calculus math. I think the bachelors degree validates that, and you need validation somehow to get an interview (because HR doesn't choose to develop a model to assess new hires w/o experience). I got my first, and likely second, job primarily based on the fact that I went to U of I. Now I need credentials to move up, but I found a company that pays 100% for certifications and MBA so I'll be debt free and have a shitload of letters after my name in 5 years.

I'd like to see the German system here, which would be a huge boon to the middle class loss we are experiencing. Voc training option that starts at 16/17, advanced levels of trade school, highly skilled manual labor force. I remember my high school had something like this, a half-day voc option for 1 year and then you try for ITT Tech or something, but nobody I am aware of really developed further so it seemed a broken approach. The best "laborer class" guy I knew was a welder that had a bachelors in Metallurgy and Mech Engineering, so he still had to go the traditional route to make that jump up.

wepner

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 197
  • Age: 41
  • Location: Yokohama, Japan
Re: Is College/University Worth It? Seriously.
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2013, 08:21:42 AM »
I have a Masters Degree in a field that generally doesn't make a bunch of money (history) but I did it without any debt and actually saved money.

Of course a college education is overpriced in the US and getting more expensive rapidly (at least in California) but that doesn't mean that it HAS to ruin your finances.

I agree with a lot of other people that support apprenticeships/vocational schools/internships/etc. and think that a University Education isn't for everyone and shouldn't be as "required as it is now."

But I do kind of question the idea that if a college degree doesn't increase my salary X% then it is or isn't worth it. I mean there is more to life than just making money and I think learning about a bunch of stuff enhances people's life. Of course people can learn for free on their own, but I think arguing that people should learn whatever they want and schools and teachers don't add much is actually arguing against ALL school not just college.

So I guess this is a sort of really long way to say that it depends on what you mean by "worth it."

Dr.Vibrissae

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 364
Re: Is College/University Worth It? Seriously.
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2013, 08:58:20 AM »


What's sad is I have friends with HSers paying for AP classes so they can earn college credit early.

Too be fri when I took AP classes (over 10 years ago so it may have changed) there was no additional cost but the AP exam at the end: $75 at the time (defintiely cheaper than most of my college books).  And I got 32 hours of credit, plus a scholarship my freshman year for that cost, a pretty good ROI, considering it is esentially the equivalent of a 2 year associates degree.  I guess I don't really know how the two way out in terms of costs and ability to transfer into more traditional universities, but I just wanted to point out that they could be pretty equivalent.

As for whether a university degree is worth it, it depends on what you want to do.  In my feild it's absolutely necessary, you can't become a vet without one.  ( I could start a whole different discussion on whether the way it is currently structured is the best model or not, but I think a degree should be required).  However, I agree it's not for everyone, and I do think the emphasis on  college prep for EVERYONE in high school misses the point.

The goal should be to prepare people for future, successful careers, which as the OP pointed out does not necessarily require a BA.

xocotl

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 54
Re: Is College/University Worth It? Seriously.
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2013, 09:07:45 AM »
Sure, you can get better jobs and make more money with a college degree.

But is the college education worth the money on its own merits?

I attended a major Midwestern private university on 50% scholarship. Even though the school has a good reputation, it seemed like the bulk of my money was going to beautiful grounds and facilities and the college "experience," with only a handful of really useful, educational classes.

I've heard similar stories from others, but perhaps it's just anecdotal. Thankfully, I didn't have to deal with too much of the indoctrination that others have experienced in college.

It would be nice if college were more like advanced vocational schools. Get rid of the frills, and focus on education. Offer the "experience" as an option for those who want it.

Having attended my state university, my experience with regards to this was that valuable (depending on your perspective) courses were available if you wanted to take them. Most of the 100 or 200 level classes didn't really provide me with much, but I managed to exempt out of most of the required ones. The upper level undergrad and lower-level grad courses I thought were overall pretty good for me. Yeah, it's still all stuff that I could've learned on my own, but the combination of having a professor do all the hard work of putting things together in a cohesive way so that they build on each other and having a large group of fellow students who were working on the same things to discuss with made it a lot easier.

I managed to only have one liberal indoctrination class (I actually lean somewhat liberal, but really, I'm paying for an education, not to listen to the professor rant about how terrible Bush is), and I just avoided taking any further classes with that professor.

Then again, my university had quite possibly one of the ugliest campuses I've seen, so I hope at least that they weren't diverting much money to the grounds and experience; if so they weren't getting much for it :).

mpbaker22

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1095
Re: Is College/University Worth It? Seriously.
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2013, 09:12:08 AM »
Most people don't know how to make it cheap.  I went to a pretty good (top 40 or so) university in the midwest.  Tuition for 7 semesters was about $42K.  Dorm for first 2 years was $10K (shouldn't have lived there 2 years, first year was required).  Room and board for 3rd year was $7500.  Room for 7th semester was $1000 plus maybe $2000 for my own food.  Books in total were about $2000?
That works out to a grand total of $75K in expenses while in college for 3.5 years.  This number includes tuition and living expenses.  I did receive a lot of help from my parents, but had I not, I would have it entirely, or close to entirely, paid off by now, and I've been working 18 months.

While there is a problem with university costs, the biggest part of the problem is the students and parents, not the costs.

That problem is two-fold. 1) Everyone is told they have to go to college.  This results in people going to college who shouldn't.  This not only costs them, but drives up rates as well.  2) An 18 year old HS graduate is a child, financially speaking.  It's up to the parents to educate them on college choices, and most the parents are stuck in the 70s when thinking about the benefits of college.  This results in a very easy situation for students to fall into massive debts.

Luck better Skill

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 283
  • Location: Virginia
Re: Is College/University Worth It? Seriously.
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2013, 09:13:17 AM »
  For medicine, hard science, math, business I think college still generates a return for the money. 
  For IT/computer experience is much better.  You can get training and be making money in under two years.  It is a field that ability can get you offers.  I have a couple friends who got job offers because of programs they wrote on the side.  (Neither was even applying)  A degree will open some doors for you in IT but an experience resume for programing, networking, etc is worth more.
  As far as the college experience goes, I don't buy that argument that it is worth it or makes you well rounded.  Society learns lots off discovery type TV programing or educational videos they have interest in.  I know of no one who says, "yea setting in that 101 class with 90 other kids, with a undergrad teacher was a great experience, I learned lots of interesting about xyz.  Most mandatory class or just short of torture for both the instructor and the student.
  I attended community college, paying as I went.  My degree got me interviews but never got me a job.  Have never worked in the field I studied. 

  One of the changes in USA society that I expect to happen in the decline of college degrees.  Two many young adults are saddled with large student debt, near worthless degrees, working for low wages.  That bad taste will sour many and influence the next generation on the value of college.

renbutler

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 384
  • Location: Midwest USA
Re: Is College/University Worth It? Seriously.
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2013, 09:21:39 AM »
Not every student is on a college track nor needs to be. I'm not sure how it is today, but back in my high school years the entire point of those four years was college prep. Never mind the students that would never need college and would have done better with learning a trade. I know we have one public high school in town that focuses on trades -- everything from medical tech to auto-body repair in addition to gen ed requirements -- but most schools focus just on the final product of college and lose a lot of students along the way.

Agree 100% on the bolded part. Some people might see that as an insult, but it absolutely is not. There are numerous well paying and dignified career paths that simply don't require college.

There are well meaning efforts to give "every kid a college education," but clearly most 18-year-olds are not suited for that path -- and not because they're stupid or can't benefit from continued education of some sort.

nawhite

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1081
  • Location: Golden, CO
    • The Reckless Choice
Re: Is College/University Worth It? Seriously.
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2013, 09:25:32 AM »
26 married and 100k paid off 100k to go. In hindsight, it was great for me, not so great for my wife. 

The problem my wife and I ran into was the lack of financial education before starting school. We both went the the same private school which had tuition in the top 10 nationally. Before we started school we didn't know any of these things:

1. How much 100k in student loan debt really is.
2. What kind of job is required to pay that off.
3. You can do 2 years at a Community College and then transfer to many schools and save ridiculous amounts of money.
4. Even when enrolled at a 4 year private school, many times they will let you take gen-ed requirements at the local community college or other cheap sister school. (Could have saved 3k / class this way)
5. Using loan money to cover living expenses is kinda dumb. We should have had a job. (Figured this out Junior year)

6. In many cases, a state school education is just as good as a private school education because many employers just look for a checkbox. This certainly was the case for my wife (any degree would have gotten her where she is now)

Educate your kids about these things before they start applying to schools. Help them make fully informed decisions. Its not a case of "College is/is not ever worth it." Its that there are many different paths to the same financial goals and some of them are much less expensive than others.

Maybe I'm an exception but I believe if someone had sat me down and explained how much the loans really wer going to cost and what the benefits of a degree were, I likely may have taken a different path than I did.

Albert

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1244
  • Location: Switzerland
Re: Is College/University Worth It? Seriously.
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2013, 09:27:10 AM »
I only attended grad school in US (for free), but it was definitely worth it. I knew quite early what exactly I wanted to do and PhD is a requirement for it. In fact my current company rarely hire anyone without a postdoc as well...

Albert

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1244
  • Location: Switzerland
Re: Is College/University Worth It? Seriously.
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2013, 09:29:33 AM »

Agree 100% on the bolded part. Some people might see that as an insult, but it absolutely is not. There are numerous well paying and dignified career paths that simply don't require college.

There are well meaning efforts to give "every kid a college education," but clearly most 18-year-olds are not suited for that path -- and not because they're stupid or can't benefit from continued education of some sort.

Are there? I can't think of many other than owning your own business...

mpbaker22

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1095
Re: Is College/University Worth It? Seriously.
« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2013, 09:38:16 AM »

Agree 100% on the bolded part. Some people might see that as an insult, but it absolutely is not. There are numerous well paying and dignified career paths that simply don't require college.

There are well meaning efforts to give "every kid a college education," but clearly most 18-year-olds are not suited for that path -- and not because they're stupid or can't benefit from continued education of some sort.

Are there? I can't think of many other than owning your own business...

Construction type work - Plumbing, Electrician, etc.
They do take training, but they pay fairly well, especially when you account for the lower costs of education.   And they are FAR more conducive to owning your own business.

renbutler

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 384
  • Location: Midwest USA
Re: Is College/University Worth It? Seriously.
« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2013, 09:48:32 AM »

Agree 100% on the bolded part. Some people might see that as an insult, but it absolutely is not. There are numerous well paying and dignified career paths that simply don't require college.

There are well meaning efforts to give "every kid a college education," but clearly most 18-year-olds are not suited for that path -- and not because they're stupid or can't benefit from continued education of some sort.

Are there? I can't think of many other than owning your own business...

Construction type work - Plumbing, Electrician, etc.
They do take training, but they pay fairly well, especially when you account for the lower costs of education.   And they are FAR more conducive to owning your own business.

Yeah, those are good examples. I suppose it comes down to how one defines "numerous."

But craftsmen and tradesmen can make pretty darn good money these days.

Another such career path that just popped into my head is Realtor. I know it's a pretty competitive industry and hard to really succeed in, but the money can be great for those who do. My brother-in-law wasn't college material, but he's carved out a nice living off this.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2013, 09:50:33 AM by renbutler »

zhelud

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 245
Re: Is College/University Worth It? Seriously.
« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2013, 09:50:23 AM »
No. College is absolutely not worth it, if you don't care about learning to think critically, write effectively, do laboratory research (or any research at all), or understand and appreciate thousands of years of developments in the fields of philosophy, art, literature and science among many civilizations.

Luck better Skill

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 283
  • Location: Virginia
Re: Is College/University Worth It? Seriously.
« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2013, 09:50:30 AM »
  Plumbers and auto mechanics make good money.  Great examples of non-college training paying well.  Also a trusted mechanic or plumber can find themselves with more work/jobs than hours. 

renbutler

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 384
  • Location: Midwest USA
Re: Is College/University Worth It? Seriously.
« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2013, 09:51:36 AM »
No. College is absolutely not worth it, if you don't care about learning to think critically, write effectively, do laboratory research (or any research at all), or understand and appreciate thousands of years of developments in the fields of philosophy, art, literature and science among many civilizations.

Other than perhaps the lab research, I submit that any of the rest of those things can be enjoyed and learned without spending thousands of dollars at a university.

Scientific research seems like it's perfectly suited for that setting though.

thepokercab

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 484
Re: Is College/University Worth It? Seriously.
« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2013, 09:52:57 AM »
I agree with much of what I've read here. 

My wife and I went to an in-state university in New Mexico and only walked away with about $10,000 in student loan debt between us. NM has a state lottery program, so it's pretty cheap to go to school if your a resident and have like a 2.5 GPA. A lot of our fellow high-school friends of ours that ended up going out of state to private schools have many times the debt, and don't seem to have substantially more benefit from it. 

But you don't know that in high school, and i remember at the time being disappointed that i was settling for an in-state school while some of my friends we're going to Michigan, NYU, etc..  Now, i wouldn't trade it for anything. There's simply no way that an education at NYU is $100,000 (+ interest) more valuable than the same education at the University of New Mexico. 

I would also go back and plan my degree better.  My political science degree is basically useless, and I haven't used at all since I graduated.  I've needed to have the "graduated college" checkbox, but I wish i had chosen a degree that had broadened my skill set.  It might have been harder, but probably worth it. 

So with my kids, when the time comes we'll be looking at state schools, community colleges and what type of education will be of value.  And starting at a young age i'll make them aware of how awful debt is, because as a high-schooler, its just such a faraway concept.  If someone at tought me more about debt, i probably wouldn't have maxed out 2 credit cards my freshman year! 

Albert

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1244
  • Location: Switzerland
Re: Is College/University Worth It? Seriously.
« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2013, 10:15:39 AM »
There are a dozen or so professions for which University education is essential (physical and natural sciences, engineering, law, medicine etc.) and usually more than BS is needed. For most other professions a degree serves only as a weeding out tool.

mpbaker22

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1095
Re: Is College/University Worth It? Seriously.
« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2013, 10:17:42 AM »
No. College is absolutely not worth it, if you don't care about learning to think critically, write effectively, do laboratory research (or any research at all), or understand and appreciate thousands of years of developments in the fields of philosophy, art, literature and science among many civilizations.

That's right.  I forgot all the libraries in the country shut down!

ace1224

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 468
Re: Is College/University Worth It? Seriously.
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2013, 10:38:10 AM »
There are a dozen or so professions for which University education is essential (physical and natural sciences, engineering, law, medicine etc.) and usually more than BS is needed. For most other professions a degree serves only as a weeding out tool.
this.  it all depends on what you want to do.  my brother does sales, he didn't really NEED a marketing degree, i work as a chemist, they wouldn't even look at you without a BS in a hard science

Eric

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4056
  • Location: On my bike

Frankies Girl

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3722
  • Age: 87
  • Location: The oubliette.
  • Ghouls Just Wanna Have Funds!
Re: Is College/University Worth It? Seriously.
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2013, 10:51:52 AM »
Just my experience, but in general, it's not worth it if you're not intending to do something with your degree when you get out.

A relative went, got a perfectly useless degree since she had no idea what she could do with it except teach, and she hated teaching. She wasn't ambitious or even interested in doing anything else with it either, and there was no thought to how she would support herself with that degree.

I've known plenty of people like that. Either going to college because that's what you're supposed to do but with no real idea of what they'll do when they get out, or because it's a fun way of pretending to be an adult and still have the relative safety of college academia life (career students).

Either choose something that has lots of available job paths, or if it's a highly competitive field, go into it knowing you're going to have to excel and work your ass off... otherwise, total waste.

I've also known plenty of people that probably would have done very well in college but didn't have the opportunity to go. Highly intelligent and yes, even brilliant, but without the college experience. You don't have to go to college to have a thirst for knowledge or to hone intelligence.


« Last Edit: August 04, 2017, 08:10:13 AM by Frankies Girl »

Albert

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1244
  • Location: Switzerland
Re: Is College/University Worth It? Seriously.
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2013, 10:54:09 AM »
this.  it all depends on what you want to do.  my brother does sales, he didn't really NEED a marketing degree, i work as a chemist, they wouldn't even look at you without a BS in a hard science

Similar situation in my family. I'm a chemist and my sister is working in advertising. She has a degree but didn't really need it except for getting her first 1-2 jobs.

Simple Abundant Living

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 579
    • Simple Abundant Living
Re: Is College/University Worth It? Seriously.
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2013, 10:57:36 AM »
My DH and I both attended a good state university in our hometown. My father was a professor there, so I received half tuition. I had a scholarship that paid the rest of my tuition and fees. Dad bought my books with his employee discount. It wasn't my dream to attend school in my hometown, but it turned out great.  I agree that parents and kids get excited about prestigious schools they have been accepted to, and discount local options or community colleges. 

A bachelors degree was required for my husband's job, but it wouldn't have mattered if it was from a state U OR an Ivy League. As for me, I became a SAHM, so I was grateful not to have accumulated debt.  DH went on to get an MBA, mostly paid by his employer.  I will be applying for graduate school when my youngest child is in full day school. I'm glad I already have my bachelors degree, so that I can jump right in to my future career path.

How Am I raising my kids?  They are all bright, so I expect them to go to college/university. But I would be fine if they did a different professional track. My oldest got a volleyball scholarship at a state university that pays for everything, plus a modest living allowance. She is very frugal and makes the amount stretch so that she doesn't have to dip into her savings.  I have kids who are taking advantage of the associates degree available in high school here. Our state will then give them a two year scholarship to finish their bachelors. They will be able to combine that with other scholarships and work/study to pay for school. Where I live there is little reason to go into debt for an education at all.  My dad got his PhD at Stanford, but his undergrad at a state U. He always recommended a good state school for undergrad, then possibly spending more on your graduate work. (Of course, Stanford was a lot cheaper in the late 60's than it is now!)
« Last Edit: July 23, 2013, 11:00:49 AM by Crazyfun »

Freeyourchains2

  • Guest
Re: Is College/University Worth It? Seriously.
« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2013, 11:14:13 AM »
Just remember, You'll never get ahead working for someone else when you get out of college and even after a few years of working and saving, you'll keep wondering why your income isn't ever increasing at the job. (CEO's want it all as the employees slave away, unless they share evenly all the profits).

Plus sometimes the non-essential majors are treated as hobbies, rather then professional. It's like an engineer saying, " Your major is my hobby.", to a drum major.

randymarsh

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1369
  • Location: Denver
Re: Is College/University Worth It? Seriously.
« Reply #31 on: July 23, 2013, 11:16:40 AM »
I've got one more year of undergrad and ~$60,000 of debt so the jury is still out on whether it was "worth it" financially.

Maybe this is just naivete, but it seems like now college/education is another commodity. I don't think it used to be like that. Sure people wanted good paying jobs, but they valued the education itself, not only what it could get you. Unfortunately now school is so expensive that you have to land a relatively high paying job in order to pay off the debt. I don't think it's good for society to have everyone picking majors almost entirely based on earning potential.

Jamesqf

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4038
Re: Is College/University Worth It? Seriously.
« Reply #32 on: July 23, 2013, 11:40:58 AM »
Just remember, You'll never get ahead working for someone else when you get out of college and even after a few years of working and saving, you'll keep wondering why your income isn't ever increasing at the job. (CEO's want it all as the employees slave away, unless they share evenly all the profits).

I beg to differ.  In just about any job that you get with a technical degree, your starting salary will put you well ahead of the pack.  If you're wondering why your salary isn't increasing, you might start by asking why it should increase, then taking a good look in the mirror.

renbutler

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 384
  • Location: Midwest USA
Re: Is College/University Worth It? Seriously.
« Reply #33 on: July 23, 2013, 11:53:36 AM »
Just remember, You'll never get ahead working for someone else when you get out of college and even after a few years of working and saving, you'll keep wondering why your income isn't ever increasing at the job. (CEO's want it all as the employees slave away, unless they share evenly all the profits).

I got ahead just fine working for someone else out of college, a few years of working, and saving. My income has also increased, sometimes in line with inflation, sometimes at a faster rate.

Not sure what this rant was supposed to be about.

Joshin

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 145
Re: Is College/University Worth It? Seriously.
« Reply #34 on: July 23, 2013, 11:56:40 AM »


What's sad is I have friends with HSers paying for AP classes so they can earn college credit early.

Too be fri when I took AP classes (over 10 years ago so it may have changed) there was no additional cost but the AP exam at the end: $75 at the time (defintiely cheaper than most of my college books).  And I got 32 hours of credit, plus a scholarship my freshman year for that cost, a pretty good ROI, considering it is esentially the equivalent of a 2 year associates degree.  I guess I don't really know how the two way out in terms of costs and ability to transfer into more traditional universities, but I just wanted to point out that they could be pretty equivalent.


I'm not against AP classes, I took a few in high school. The issue is in our state, high school students can get their associate's degree for free (minus books) instead of just a few credits via AP. I'm not sure what fees people are paying these days, I just know I hear complaints about the costs. The parents I know are shooting down the free associate's option because it comes from a community college or because their kids won't experience dorm life. I know my 13 year old is stoked over this program and is already actively working to make sure he qualifies at 16. The way he sees it, he can take a gap year without falling behind his peers that go straight to college at 18, or he can finish his Bachelor's early and get a head start on his adult life.

As for career paths that don't require a traditional 4 year degree? Well besides the skilled trades (welder, electrician, plumber), we have nearly all the creative fields (writer, artist, etc), many of the medical and vet tech fields, pilots, telecommunications "linemen," cosmetology, sales and many, many more.

Now, both my kids are young but they seem to be on a college track. One wants to be a vet or work in forestry management, while the other goes back and forth between astrophysicist and aerospace engineer. These are fields where a degree is both necessary and worthwhile, so damn straight we'll encourage it. As for me, being self-employed in a creative field? I probably should have saved my cash and skipped the degree.

Spork

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5738
    • Spork In The Eye
Re: Is College/University Worth It? Seriously.
« Reply #35 on: July 23, 2013, 12:19:24 PM »
There is about a 3.5 percentage point gap between the unemployment rate of college graduates (under 4%) and that of high school graduates (7.5%).  At the peak of the recession the gap was much larger - 5% vs 11%.  This is in the US.  On average, a college degree makes you quite a bit more likely to be hired.


Devil's advocate here:  Okay, let's assume that's 100% true.  But if you were able to spend 4 years looking for a job and save $80k in the process -- is that such a bad thing?

I'm not really arguing against college... but I do think we've saddled a generation (or two) with the "you can't do it any other way."  I got a degree but I have known lots of people that worked beside me making (roughly) the same money that didn't finish or didn't go at all.

You could outsource my job to someone working remotely anywhere.  Try that with your plumber.

MakingSenseofCents

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 263
  • Age: 36
  • Location: RVer
    • Making Sense of Cents
Re: Is College/University Worth It? Seriously.
« Reply #36 on: July 23, 2013, 12:32:09 PM »
I think it depends. I really believe that experience trumps education (and I have 3 degrees), but employers a lot of the time won't even consider you if you don't have a degree. A degree is more of a stepping stone.

mpbaker22

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1095
Re: Is College/University Worth It? Seriously.
« Reply #37 on: July 23, 2013, 01:19:53 PM »
I think it depends. I really believe that experience trumps education (and I have 3 degrees), but employers a lot of the time won't even consider you if you don't have a degree. A degree is more of a stepping stone.

I think there is a general agreement here.  My job certainly requires a degree as a condition of employment, but the work could be done by a 2 year old ... Actually, I'll give it a little credit.  I think it might take a 10 year old.
Why do y'all think I'm on here all day?

StarswirlTheMustached

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 475
Re: Is College/University Worth It? Seriously.
« Reply #38 on: July 23, 2013, 01:40:56 PM »
Everyone who says the investment is worth it if you get a "hard science" degree should be careful. Physics is as hard as science gets--but according to Statistics Canada, un- and underemployment amongst holders of Physics B.Sc.'s is equivalent to that amongst holders of B.A.'s in English.

And I would disagree with the assertion that the university environment is the only, or even the best place to do science. On whose faculty did Darwin serve? Which endowment funded Einstein’s work on Relativity? One could make a convincing case that 'gentlemen naturalists' of a type a mustachian would be eminently suited to become have had at least as much influence on the advancement of science as all the university professors put together.
And why shouldn't they? A professorship was originally supposed to be a teaching position. That's what Professor means: teacher. Even Doctor comes from the same root as educator. (drop the e, and you'll see how that happened.) Even if you're ignoring your teaching function, in academia, you spend more time on grant money than on science, and the science you can do is determined by the politics of the funding agencies.

Why, then, go to college? They're the gatekeepers of a great many professions, 'tis true. If you simply must work in one of them, fine, by all means, attend a University and then attend to the financial burden. If you're here, though, you're probably not going to weld your self-identity to your wage-earning, and you should find a trade that gives you the best ROI instead. (Welding metal is much more satisfying than welding self-identity, anyway.) If you are the intellectual sort, you can still work a trade while you pursue higher learning as a hobby, and once FI, audiodictate yourself to a PhD-level knowledge of any subject you choose to.

Albert

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1244
  • Location: Switzerland
Re: Is College/University Worth It? Seriously.
« Reply #39 on: July 23, 2013, 02:04:39 PM »
Everyone who says the investment is worth it if you get a "hard science" degree should be careful. Physics is as hard as science gets--but according to Statistics Canada, un- and underemployment amongst holders of Physics B.Sc.'s is equivalent to that amongst holders of B.A.'s in English.

And I would disagree with the assertion that the university environment is the only, or even the best place to do science. On whose faculty did Darwin serve? Which endowment funded Einstein’s work on Relativity? One could make a convincing case that 'gentlemen naturalists' of a type a mustachian would be eminently suited to become have had at least as much influence on the advancement of science as all the university professors put together.
And why shouldn't they? A professorship was originally supposed to be a teaching position. That's what Professor means: teacher. Even Doctor comes from the same root as educator. (drop the e, and you'll see how that happened.) Even if you're ignoring your teaching function, in academia, you spend more time on grant money than on science, and the science you can do is determined by the politics of the funding agencies.

Why, then, go to college? They're the gatekeepers of a great many professions, 'tis true. If you simply must work in one of them, fine, by all means, attend a University and then attend to the financial burden. If you're here, though, you're probably not going to weld your self-identity to your wage-earning, and you should find a trade that gives you the best ROI instead. (Welding metal is much more satisfying than welding self-identity, anyway.) If you are the intellectual sort, you can still work a trade while you pursue higher learning as a hobby, and once FI, audiodictate yourself to a PhD-level knowledge of any subject you choose to.

No offense, but your view about science is a bit naive. Darwin was a Cambridge graduate, Einstein studied physics at ETH Zurich. It's true that his first influential papers were published while working for the Swiss patent office, but after that he held professorships in the best universities of his time and was of course paid for his research. Anyway times are different now, you'll never get to do a serious research in chemistry, physics, molecular biology and similar areas without a formal education. Scientific research is a lot more expensive these days than in late 19th century and requires a lot of machinery. Fundamental research is mostly done in academic and government funded institutions, applied science mostly in industrial labs (with ample interface between the two). It's not just about educating yourself to a high level, but also about being around many other similarly educated people. Great ideas rarely develop in vacuum!

P.S. I'm not Einstein, but I do scientific research for living (industrial) so I think I know a bit what is going on. :)

StarswirlTheMustached

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 475
Re: Is College/University Worth It? Seriously.
« Reply #40 on: July 23, 2013, 02:51:21 PM »
Everyone who says the investment is worth it if you get a "hard science" degree should be careful. Physics is as hard as science gets--but according to Statistics Canada, un- and underemployment amongst holders of Physics B.Sc.'s is equivalent to that amongst holders of B.A.'s in English.

And I would disagree with the assertion that the university environment is the only, or even the best place to do science. On whose faculty did Darwin serve? Which endowment funded Einstein’s work on Relativity? One could make a convincing case that 'gentlemen naturalists' of a type a mustachian would be eminently suited to become have had at least as much influence on the advancement of science as all the university professors put together.
And why shouldn't they? A professorship was originally supposed to be a teaching position. That's what Professor means: teacher. Even Doctor comes from the same root as educator. (drop the e, and you'll see how that happened.) Even if you're ignoring your teaching function, in academia, you spend more time on grant money than on science, and the science you can do is determined by the politics of the funding agencies.

Why, then, go to college? They're the gatekeepers of a great many professions, 'tis true. If you simply must work in one of them, fine, by all means, attend a University and then attend to the financial burden. If you're here, though, you're probably not going to weld your self-identity to your wage-earning, and you should find a trade that gives you the best ROI instead. (Welding metal is much more satisfying than welding self-identity, anyway.) If you are the intellectual sort, you can still work a trade while you pursue higher learning as a hobby, and once FI, audiodictate yourself to a PhD-level knowledge of any subject you choose to.

No offense, but your view about science is a bit naive. Darwin was a Cambridge graduate, Einstein studied physics at ETH Zurich. It's true that his first influential papers were published while working for the Swiss patent office, but after that he held professorships in the best universities of his time and was of course paid for his research. Anyway times are different now, you'll never get to do a serious research in chemistry, physics, molecular biology and similar areas without a formal education. Scientific research is a lot more expensive these days than in late 19th century and requires a lot of machinery. Fundamental research is mostly done in academic and government funded institutions, applied science mostly in industrial labs (with ample interface between the two). It's not just about educating yourself to a high level, but also about being around many other similarly educated people. Great ideas rarely develop in vacuum!

P.S. I'm not Einstein, but I do scientific research for living (industrial) so I think I know a bit what is going on. :)

At the risk of derailing the thread, I'd like to respond in detail.

One: you no longer need to attend a university to get a the equivalent of formal education; you just need self-discipline. The textbooks, the course-notes, the assignments and exams for full degrees in all the sciences are available on MIT OpenCourswear and other places. I'm not Enstien either, but this view is shared by Gerard 't Hooft, Nobel laureate in Physics, amongst others far above us in the Ivory Tower.
Also, the courses Darwin took at Cambridge was laughably unrelated to the sort of naturalism that made him famous, if you look into the curriculum of the time. This is not true for Einstein, but since much of his best work was done in a patent office on his own time, the fact that he later became a household name and worked at an Ivy League institution is a bit of a red herring, in my opinion.

As for "being around many other similarly educated people.", I never had any of that in grad school-- nobody talked outside of their tiny research groups, because they weren't interested beyond the laser-beam focus imposed on them by their funding committees. When we did get together, it was to forget about our damned theses, not to celebrate them. Furthermore, I'd suggest the internet can take over in this regard, as well: I got a lot more comradeship and assistance from the PhD Comics Phorum (sic, it's a pun) than I ever did anyone local.

"Scientific research is a lot more expensive these days than in late 19th century and requires a lot of machinery. "
This depends on what you're doing. If you're interested in Fusion research, you can be on the cutting edge and build a polywell inertial confinement device for a few thousand dollars, as a number of hobbyists have begun to do.
The fact that the English vernacular now contains the word "biohacker" should tell you something about how much PCR machines and other gene-splicing equipment costs these days.
The fellow who has the (unconfirmed) world record in high-temperature Tc doesn't work at a university or an industrial lab, and appears to be operating out of his basement.
You don't need anything other than a pencil, paper, and a hard surface to bang your head against to get into theoretical physics (though Mathematica does help quite a bit with the unsolvable bits).
The academic space-guard program has started to plug the gaps, but for many years the discovery of new asteroids and comets, especially NEOs, was the parvenu of amateurs.
A dark sky, a decent amateur telescope and a spectrograph will let you make perfectly valid observations of variable stars, and things like astroseismology, etc.
If you're more the Engineering type and want to join the space race, the guys at Copenhagen Suborbitals serve as a good example.
Arguably Paul Stamets is one of the more respected Mycologists out there, and he's just a dirty hippy.

I admit that most of those examples are drawn from physics and astronomy, but that's just because that's where my background lies, but I think I have given enough examples to prove my point, non?
Sure, you're not going to build the LHC in your basement, but that's not the only kind of science left to be done. Just because most work is done by wage slaves in an industrial or academic setting does not mean it has to be.

SnackDog

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1260
  • Location: Latin America
Re: Is College/University Worth It? Seriously.
« Reply #41 on: July 23, 2013, 04:23:42 PM »
If your intention from university is strictly to get rich, you should consider an MBA or possibly dental school. Both can lead to high incomes at an early age.

I'm impressed with how much people in public jobs earn and how fabulous their pensions are. I am thinking of cops, firemen, etc who can earn huge overtime. In some cities and states they retire after 20 years on a huge fraction of their highest income, which could be vast with enough overtime, and great health insurance.  Even military service can lead to great savings, income and early retirement. None of these areas requires more than high school education.

Albert

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1244
  • Location: Switzerland
Re: Is College/University Worth It? Seriously.
« Reply #42 on: July 23, 2013, 04:44:11 PM »
I still don't agree, but since you wrote an intelligent answer I'll try to respond likewise.

One: you no longer need to attend a university to get a the equivalent of formal education; you just need self-discipline. The textbooks, the course-notes, the assignments and exams for full degrees in all the sciences are available on MIT OpenCourswear and other places. I'm not Enstien either, but this view is shared by Gerard 't Hooft, Nobel laureate in Physics, amongst others far above us in the Ivory Tower.

True in principle, but there are several practical issues with this. 1) Mathematics and some branches of physics are somewhat an exception, but to be an expert in most sciences one needs experience in the lab as well. You are never going to become a competent chemist (my field) or biologist without it let alone discover something new. 2) unless you are born with a lot of money you'll need to market your skills to get a job and/or funding for your research. That will be tough to do (impossible, I'm tempted to say) without a formal paper. 3) You can't really wait until attaining FI - human mind is most nimble at age 20-40. Most important discoveries tend to be made while scientists are still young. Einstein did very little of importance after emigrating to US.

2) and 3) might change in the future, 1) I don't think so.

Also, the courses Darwin took at Cambridge was laughably unrelated to the sort of naturalism that made him famous, if you look into the curriculum of the time. This is not true for Einstein, but since much of his best work was done in a patent office on his own time, the fact that he later became a household name and worked at an Ivy League institution is a bit of a red herring, in my opinion.

True about Darwin (long time ago!), not true about Einstein. In fact he was an exception among the leading physicists of his time in starting his career at patent office. He didn't stay there long - by 1916 he was already a president of the German physical society. He wasn't alone in developing the new field of quantum physics and his other famous contemporaries (all Nobel prize laureates) were purely academic scientists. I'm talking about people like Niels Bohr, Werner Heisenberg, Enrico Fermi, Max Planck, Enrico Fermi, Erwin Schroedinger and several others. By the way it's not a coincidence that most of them were centred Germany or neighbouring countries. It was the world centre of physics in those days.

As for "being around many other similarly educated people.", I never had any of that in grad school-- nobody talked outside of their tiny research groups, because they weren't interested beyond the laser-beam focus imposed on them by their funding committees. When we did get together, it was to forget about our damned theses, not to celebrate them. Furthermore, I'd suggest the internet can take over in this regard, as well: I got a lot more comradeship and assistance from the PhD Comics Phorum (sic, it's a pun) than I ever did anyone local.

Your PhD experience was more cloistered than mine then although it is true that at this stage and from the point of view of student there is not as much collaboration as there should be. It's professor who is going to conferences, speaking with other colleagues, consulting industry etc. When I got my current industrial position the biggest change was moving from highly individual projects to highly collaborative. I've met some very smart people while in grad school or while doing my postdoc, but in fact there is a much greater concentration of them in the company. Scientific excellence is the foremost criteria for being hired here. I personally find it both inspiring and intellectually challenging.


"Scientific research is a lot more expensive these days than in late 19th century and requires a lot of machinery. "
This depends on what you're doing. If you're interested in Fusion research, you can be on the cutting edge and build a polywell inertial confinement device for a few thousand dollars, as a number of hobbyists have begun to do.
The fact that the English vernacular now contains the word "biohacker" should tell you something about how much PCR machines and other gene-splicing equipment costs these days.
The fellow who has the (unconfirmed) world record in high-temperature Tc doesn't work at a university or an industrial lab, and appears to be operating out of his basement.

Fusion is very far from what I do, so I can't really judge the validity of what you wrote... PCR is a standard technique in biochemistry these days, but just because you know how to use it doesn't mean you'll come up with anything new. I can tell you that chemistry is a fairly expensive science to run. Not LHC expensive, but you need al lot of reagents which aren't cheap, labs space and glassware plus some machines to analyse your results (NMR for sure), plus access to chemical databases and online journals. That's not even accounting for all the safety aspects and the fact that many vital chemicals are controlled substances and wouldn't be sold at all to the guy in the basement.

You don't need anything other than a pencil, paper, and a hard surface to bang your head against to get into theoretical physics (though Mathematica does help quite a bit with the unsolvable bits).

They use computers extensively these days, but otherwise true. Pure mathematics could still be done alone in the basement and there have been some recent examples. I'm not aware of any such instances in theoretical physics, though.


The academic space-guard program has started to plug the gaps, but for many years the discovery of new asteroids and comets, especially NEOs, was the parvenu of amateurs.
A dark sky, a decent amateur telescope and a spectrograph will let you make perfectly valid observations of variable stars, and things like astroseismology, etc.

That's only because for many years academics/government weren't particularly interested in such discoveries. I can understand them - just another rock so what?
 

I admit that most of those examples are drawn from physics and astronomy, but that's just because that's where my background lies, but I think I have given enough examples to prove my point, non?
Sure, you're not going to build the LHC in your basement, but that's not the only kind of science left to be done. Just because most work is done by wage slaves in an industrial or academic setting does not mean it has to be.

You gave few decent ones, but as I illustrated above scientific disciplines more heavily based on experiments are very difficult to replicate by amateurs. It doesn't have to be in academia or industry, but it still needs a serious funding and be done by professionals. In industry it depends where exactly, but I'm yet to hear a professor admit that they are "wage slaves". At least those who do meaningful research tend to be very passionate about their jobs and voluntarily work very long hours. Sure they are still humans and will take more money over less given the choice...

P.S. Sorry to all others readers about the technical language and "slight" derailing of the thread.

Peony

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 387
Re: Is College/University Worth It? Seriously.
« Reply #43 on: July 23, 2013, 04:52:27 PM »
No. College is absolutely not worth it, if you don't care about learning to think critically, write effectively, do laboratory research (or any research at all), or understand and appreciate thousands of years of developments in the fields of philosophy, art, literature and science among many civilizations.

I struggle with the question in light of the insanity of college costs, but I think I am with you, zhelud. My rather troubled 18y.o. son is now reading Jane Austen for pleasure, because he happened to take a literature course in his first semester at university. He's at a large state school because, with his crappy grades, he didn't get into any of the ritzy private liberal arts colleges he applied to (so glad we dodged that expensive bullet!). And, truth be told, he didn't do very well in his first year; he has no study habits yet (was incorrigible in HS, refused to do any work. Only got into any college at all [via the wait list, yet] because of good SATs). By rights, he should wait until older to pursue his degree, since he really has no clue what he wants to do. And yet, on his summer vacation, he's reading Jane Austen! And Confucius! And books on economics! Just because he's interested! So, I have to think there's value in just being in a place where scholarship is happening. I'm praying that something clicks for him. Thankfully, it is not a struggle for us to pay in-state tuition at his school. My heart goes out to other "lost kids" like my son who do not have the option to go to college and screw up a little bit, but hopefully take some steps toward finding themselves through understanding and appreciating thousands of years of the fruits of human thought, as you have so eloquently put it. To me, there is nothing in the world like the feeling of having your brain stretched with new ideas.

Michelle119

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 39
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Raleigh NC
Re: Is College/University Worth It? Seriously.
« Reply #44 on: July 23, 2013, 07:08:25 PM »
I think it honestly depends on what you do with your degree after it and your earning potential after the degree compared to before the degree. My DH went to a tier 2 engineering school and definitely got some job offers/interview options that he might not have gotten from a state school, mainly due to projects off campus and networking opportunities with graduates. He did get a sizable scholarship and without this he would have gone to the cheaper state school as it was not worth $160k-200k in debt for an engineering degree.  I had a similar situation that I went to an above state school school and got a sizable scholarship, at the end it was the same cost as the big state school and that tipped me in favor of the non-state school. To get my professional license, I did need to get a master's degree and I did take out some loans.

So long in short to answer your question is it worth it to spend any money? It depends on what your end goal is for a job/profession/career.

Is it worth it to spend more than the bear minimum? Again it depends on what you can gain from the pricey school. If the pricer school is still reasonable and allows you different opportunities than the cheaper, then it might be worth it to go to the pricier school.

Nudelkopf

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 897
  • Age: 33
  • Location: Australia
Re: Is College/University Worth It? Seriously.
« Reply #45 on: July 23, 2013, 07:51:18 PM »
I did a 4 year maths degree because I didn't know enough. Sure, I could have learnt all that for free (probably), but I don't regret learning in person. I'd have needed the actual qualification to get funding for a PhD, even if I'd somehow convinced an academic to take me on with a sketchy formal mathematics history.

StarswirlTheMustached

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 475
Re: Is College/University Worth It? Seriously.
« Reply #46 on: July 23, 2013, 08:13:24 PM »
@Albert,
I'll concede some disciplines would be virtually impossible for amateurs to get into, but maintain there are nearly an equal number for which this is not true--and that in an age of increasing austerity, we may see more advances coming from Victorian-style gentleman (or gentlewomen) scientists and mathematicians in the future.

As for the young brain thing... it seems to be very much true in physics, but significantly less so in pure mathematics. Also in terms of physics, saw an analysis in Physics Today a long while back which suggests the effect was strongest in the heroic generation that developed QM (and you're putting Einstein’s best work there, and not in gravitation? Really?) and the average age of Nobel-worthy work has been creeping up constantly since.

I suppose you'll have to take what I say with a grain of salt--following a fairly lonely master's degree, I didn't finish my highly-cloistered PhD (the funding regime I was decrying pushed me into a project I was entirely unsuited for) so perhaps I have an axe to grind as well, since my hope now seems to be that I become one of those gentleman researchers.

That said, my advice to college-aged students remains the same. I would tell them not to pursue a degree in physics (or any other hard science) unless they were absolutely certain of their passion for the field, and that they had no interest in other work. As you say about professors, this is something they do for love, not money... and so while it's wrong to call them "wage slaves" in reference to their research, the majority of the ones I've known approach their teaching and administrative duties with exactly this attitude.

tl;dr : kids, only go into science if you're absolutely bonkers for it. Actually, that goes for any University program. If you're not going to love the work, or can live without, just get into a trade with the best ROI so you can FIRE and forget.

Rural

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5092
Re: Is College/University Worth It? Seriously.
« Reply #47 on: July 23, 2013, 08:17:43 PM »
It just doesn't have to cost that much. A BA or BS at my institution runs under $20K, books and all, whole thing. Not $20K per year, $20K total.

ace1224

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 468
Re: Is College/University Worth It? Seriously.
« Reply #48 on: July 24, 2013, 05:49:43 AM »
It just doesn't have to cost that much. A BA or BS at my institution runs under $20K, books and all, whole thing. Not $20K per year, $20K total.
yeah mine was about that much.  granted it was 7 years ago and they've gone up a bit, so possibly 30k for all 4 years now.  i did go to a public state school though (UNC at Wilmington) .  my lab partner went to a private college (Dartmouth) where one year cost more than all 4 years of my school.  well 5 because i was a "super" senior. 
anyways, we get paid the same, exact thing.  as do all pay grade 7's throughout my companies 8 north american plants.

matchewed

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4420
  • Location: CT
Re: Is College/University Worth It? Seriously.
« Reply #49 on: July 24, 2013, 06:19:46 AM »
As an "uneducated" individual my take on this is colored heavily by my experience, so take this with a grain...etc.

It has been made very clear to me by several layers of management that regardless of my past history of raises and promotions that I will cap out soon (I make about 41k) due to my lack of a degree. It has been openly discussed that it is not my drive, work, or messy desk that will will cause this. It is solely my education level.

With that being said you can work your way up and get to a level within an organization without a degree. An advanced degree is not for everyone and I agree that we as a country (US) have done a disservice to the blue collar jobs by blindly promoting getting the degrees. On the flip side it has been very good for women. I think rather than just promoting one type of educational achievement the focus should be on education as a broad function within our society. I like the idea of a smart populace whether or not they had formal education.