Is anyone here still actually aiming for under MMM's original 25k a year figure?

[EvenSteven]

I remember a recent poll that was asking a per person FIRE budget number, and it seemed like there were still a lot of lower numbers in there. Sometimes when remembering numbers to give an overall impression of budgets across the whole forum, you can blend together FIRE budgets and accumulation budgets.

My current budget (in accumulation stage) has the overwhelming majority of expenses as (1) mortgage, (2) income taxes, and (3) child care. These will all be either gone or substantially reduced in my FIRE budget.

[MudPuppy]

@EvenSteven yeah, we expect that we won’t actually spend as much in retirement, since a lot of the cushy things we do are time or mental energy savers that won’t be as important when we aren’t working

[simonsez]

I remember a recent poll that was asking a per person FIRE budget number, and it seemed like there were still a lot of lower numbers in there. Sometimes when remembering numbers to give an overall impression of budgets across the whole forum, you can blend together FIRE budgets and accumulation budgets.

My current budget (in accumulation stage) has the overwhelming majority of expenses as (1) mortgage, (2) income taxes, and (3) child care. These will all be either gone or substantially reduced in my FIRE budget.

Sure, can be fairly different when going from household total to per person though even when only considering FIRE budgets.  For instance, if I was to make two assumptions about the poll you're referencing:
1. household size=2 (terrible assumption but bear with me for a second)
2. the category with 15k as the top is roughly equivalent to 25k with inflation when accounting for two (30k)

-we would see that only 13% (adding the top four categories together) of the forum is at or below that original budget level.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/new-fire-spend-poll/

Lots of different household sizes!  That 25k for a household total (or 30k or whatever you want to call it in the current year) can mean a lot of different things.

Personal finance is so personal it can be vexing at times (especially for the statistically inclined) to not have everyone fit into neat and tidy bins for comparison purposes.

[wageslave23]

I remember a recent poll that was asking a per person FIRE budget number, and it seemed like there were still a lot of lower numbers in there. Sometimes when remembering numbers to give an overall impression of budgets across the whole forum, you can blend together FIRE budgets and accumulation budgets.

My current budget (in accumulation stage) has the overwhelming majority of expenses as (1) mortgage, (2) income taxes, and (3) child care. These will all be either gone or substantially reduced in my FIRE budget.

Sure, can be fairly different when going from household total to per person though even when only considering FIRE budgets.  For instance, if I was to make two assumptions about the poll you're referencing:
1. household size=2 (terrible assumption but bear with me for a second)
2. the category with 15k as the top is roughly equivalent to 25k with inflation when accounting for two (30k)

-we would see that only 13% (adding the top four categories together) of the forum is at or below that original budget level.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/new-fire-spend-poll/

Lots of different household sizes!  That 25k for a household total (or 30k or whatever you want to call it in the current year) can mean a lot of different things.

Personal finance is so personal it can be vexing at times (especially for the statistically inclined) to not have everyone fit into neat and tidy bins for comparison purposes.

I would say you can also include the 16-20k including rent or mortgage group in there as well.  Because if you take out the rent or mortgage they are likely equivalent or lower in spending to the 11-15k with paid off house group.  So maybe somewhere between 15-25% of MMM forum poll responders are planning on a FIRE budget about the same or less than MMM's 25k budget. 

I am planning on $35k for a family of 4 if we stay in our current location, and $28k if we move to a lower property tax area.  So I don't think MMM's 25k is that extreme when adjusted for inflation, assuming paid off house and low property taxes.  But I can see how that budget can quickly blow up if you don't qualify for low cost health insurance through subsidy or if living in a high property tax area.  Those two items could easily double your budget alone.

[FIRE Artist]

No, but I never did.  I take his philosophy but ignore his numbers, and always have.  I assumed most people here were of similar mindset on this one. 

Everyone's situation is different, I don't see the value in trying to compare expenses against an internet stranger with different physical abilities, interests and social capital, living in an entirely different economic area, and in my case, different country.  I have no idea how honest MMM himself ever was about his expenses and I believe it was revealed that quite a bit of his lifestyle spending is written off as business expenses which is not an option for the majority of people who want to retire without starting a retirement business.  Any kind of mental gymnastics to normalize for those costs is just not worth the effort.

For me the goal as always been FIRE as a detached homeowner, not necessarily fully paid off.  $25/32K (that ignores many actual expense categories) with paid off house seems rather arbitrary a goal and not realistic for my personal situation.     

[lhamo]

Everyone's situation is different, I don't see the value in trying to compare expenses against an internet stranger with different physical abilities, interests and social capital, living in an entirely different economic area, and in my case, different country.  I have no idea how honest MMM himself ever was about his expenses and I believe it was revealed that quite a bit of his lifestyle spending is written off as business expenses which is not an option for the majority of people who want to retire without starting a retirement business.  Any kind of mental gymnastics to normalize for those costs is just not worth the effort.

This.

Where's the slow clap emoji?

[mizzourah2006]

We will come in at about $83k for a family of 4 this year. I've given into some more extravagances over the years because, while my SO is frugal compared to most, to me she's not quite as much. But this includes, the mortgage, childcare for 2, and me buying a $6k bike. Also includes landscaping, a few vacations (including a trip to Disney) and new double ovens as ours died earlier this year. We seem to hover at between $75-$85k/yr, but that should go towards the lower number next year as our oldest just started kindergarten this fall.

I'd say if you took out childcare, the bike, and excessive vacations (like Disney, all inclusive family vacay to Mexico, etc.) we're looking at closer to $45-$50k/yr in expenses for a family of 4 including the mortgage.

I think it's false accounting to equate "paid off car/house" with "zero expense". You still need to eventually replace the car and maintain the house, and many of those expenses come in rare but large chunks. A $10,000 that lasts 10 years still costs $1k/year, replacing the roof on your paid off house likely still costs tens of grand, etc.

I agree with this, but that's why I keep track of my expenses each year. I replaced my roof just last year. That was considered an expense. I replaced most of flooring and re-painted a large section of the house in 2019, an expense. You could factor it in as a depreciation expense every year or just know that on average over ~10 years you spend X amount per year on home improvements. That's one thing I do love about keeping track of my expenses. Is I can go back and see that I spent $13k in July of 2019 and go check to see that $8k of that was the new flooring.

[MrThatsDifferent]

No, but I never did.  I take his philosophy but ignore his numbers, and always have.  I assumed most people here were of similar mindset on this one. 

Everyone's situation is different, I don't see the value in trying to compare expenses against an internet stranger with different physical abilities, interests and social capital, living in an entirely different economic area, and in my case, different country.  I have no idea how honest MMM himself ever was about his expenses and I believe it was revealed that quite a bit of his lifestyle spending is written off as business expenses which is not an option for the majority of people who want to retire without starting a retirement business.  Any kind of mental gymnastics to normalize for those costs is just not worth the effort.

For me the goal as always been FIRE as a detached homeowner, not necessarily fully paid off.  $25/32K (that ignores many actual expense categories) with paid off house seems rather arbitrary a goal and not realistic for my personal situation.     

I appreciated that he shared his budgets for years. Part of his point in doing so was to show that it’s possible to have a good, healthy life without needing to radically increase expenses each year and possible to live on less than what we’re sold/told. His messages were simple and atypical for the world:
1. Do more of what you love, and less of what causes you stress and anxiety
2. Be more self-sufficient and less dependent on others
3. Simplify and streamline your life
4. Prioritize health, wellness and relationships
5. Consume less, re-use/re-cycle more
6. Save and invest wisely, safely and efficiently early for the quickest pay-off of freedom and independence relative to your needs/wants attainable

Inject these principles into your life and your expenses will be less, and your opportunities for a more fulfilling life will be greater.

[cannotWAIT]

So, for those of you with expenses in this range, at what amount of savings will you stop working? To avoid the housing argument, just state your assumptions for your housing situation, whatever they may be.

[MudPuppy]

Not exactly what you are asking, but we would retire around 750k with our (low interest rate) mortgage the moment single payer healthcare became a reality. Since we dont expect that to happen before we hit our “fat” number of 1mm, the current plan includes either we both work until then or at 750k one of us stops working and the other works at least part time (sort of barista FIRE) just to keep the health insurance.

[lutorm]

But that's the case for everything from food to sports gear to clothes. I don't count the underwear I bought a couple of years ago as an ongoing monthly expense just because they are paid for (although collect underwear...?...profit ;-)) that was part of my expenses at the time of purchase. I feel the same for buying a house whether I paid cash to buy or paid it off over time. That was a purchase and expense at that time not now.

My point was that there are "rare but large" expenses that can have a large impact on your average annual expenses, but may not show up in the last 5 or even 10 years actual spend.

Presuming you buy enough underwear every year that your underwear expense every year is sufficiently equal to your lifetime average, it doesn't make sense to try to account for "depreciation". That's not true for the "need a new roof on the house", or "need to replace my car", and even less so for the "my self-insured house got hit by a hurricane so need to buy a new one".

Obviously actual spend is whatever it is, year to year, but when "aiming for a budget" you absolutely need to include those rare but large expenses in your average annual budget or you're likely severely underbudgeting your future.

Stated another way: it's pretty easy to say "this year I lived off <ridiculously small amount>" if you've deferred a bunch of expenses into the future.

[ChpBstrd]

No, but I never did.  I take his philosophy but ignore his numbers, and always have.  I assumed most people here were of similar mindset on this one. 

Everyone's situation is different, I don't see the value in trying to compare expenses against an internet stranger with different physical abilities, interests and social capital, living in an entirely different economic area, and in my case, different country.  I have no idea how honest MMM himself ever was about his expenses and I believe it was revealed that quite a bit of his lifestyle spending is written off as business expenses which is not an option for the majority of people who want to retire without starting a retirement business.  Any kind of mental gymnastics to normalize for those costs is just not worth the effort.

For me the goal as always been FIRE as a detached homeowner, not necessarily fully paid off.  $25/32K (that ignores many actual expense categories) with paid off house seems rather arbitrary a goal and not realistic for my personal situation.     

You are right that there are a lot of moving parts, but the risk is in throwing up one's hands and saying "I'm doing the best I can! No comparisons apply!" when in fact one is living in a pricey home in a pricey area, driving a clown car too far, buying all sorts of luxuries, overpaying for everything, outsourcing everything, having lots of subscriptions, having expensive hobbies, etc. and quietly trading away years of one's life in the process.

We see such case studies all the time, often from people who think they are doing awesome because their point of reference is their spendy/broke friends instead of people who are actually on track to retire after 10-20 year careers.

The math doesn't lie, but the part where comparisons become tricky is the spectrum between Fat FIRE and Lean FIRE. Some high earners might Fat FIRE in 10 years and some low earners might Lean Fire in 25, but in either case we could say the person is doing well if they're satisfied with their path. A key observation of the MMM philosophy is that the Fat vs. Lean decision is a tradeoff between luxury and years of life. We all make our own decisions there, but to someone with an optimizer personality there's something useful in benchmarking one's level of weakness.

[bmjohnson35]

So, for those of you with expenses in this range, at what amount of savings will you stop working? To avoid the housing argument, just state your assumptions for your housing situation, whatever they may be.

I stopped at 1.25M, but I'm afraid it's not that simple.  As with most things, it depends on your personal situation.  Do you plan to live exclusively off your stash for some time or do you have existing income stream(s)......(annuities, rental properties, etc).  Your age and the age of your spouse will determine eligibility for SS and/or pensions in the future and health insurance sources.  Health conditions could accelerate or delay things.  I'm sure I'm missing some, but you get the idea.

[PDXTabs]

But why would you include it if it's already bought and paid for? I already own my furniture--should I also include what I would pay to rent it if I didn't? I already own my car--should I also include what I would pay to lease it?

I'm going to say: it depends.

But let's look at the car example. There is both the opportunity cost of keeping your capital tied up and also depreciation. Strictly speaking, yes, I think that's a monthly expense.

But that's the case for everything from food to sports gear to clothes. I don't count the underwear I bought a couple of years ago as an ongoing monthly expense just because I they are paid for (although underwear...?...profit ;-)) that was part of my expenses at the time of purchase. I feel the same for buying a house whether I paid cash to buy or paid it off over time. That was a purchase and expense at that time not now.

Yes?

Seriously, how should I account for my monthly budget if I pay for $3M worth of food, cars, houses, sports gear, and clothes right before I FIRE. Look at me, I only spend $1,200/month! $12k/yr. Don't look at that $3M worth of goods I have.

Total net worth? Items I purchased and already accounted for?  I mean do you count each piece of toilet paper you use as part of each days expenses? Part of the whole point of FIREing on lower expenses is doing the pre-FIRE spending to set yourself up to be able to live off your stash much the same way as you do the pre-FIRE savings so you actually have a stash.

I think that toilet paper is a great example. If I buy one month's/year's worth of TP it fits into my monthly/yearly budget perfectly. Obviously its financial and utility value decreases to zero after use. If however I buy enough TP for the rest of my life then surely I should do some more complicated accounting.

[cannotWAIT]

So, for those of you with expenses in this range, at what amount of savings will you stop working? To avoid the housing argument, just state your assumptions for your housing situation, whatever they may be.

I stopped at 1.25M, but I'm afraid it's not that simple.  As with most things, it depends on your personal situation.  Do you plan to live exclusively off your stash for some time or do you have existing income stream(s)......(annuities, rental properties, etc).  Your age and the age of your spouse will determine eligibility for SS and/or pensions in the future and health insurance sources.  Health conditions could accelerate or delay things.  I'm sure I'm missing some, but you get the idea.

Right, I know—all I’m looking for is other people’s calculations about their own lives.

[GodlessCommie]

You are right that there are a lot of moving parts, but the risk is in throwing up one's hands and saying "I'm doing the best I can! No comparisons apply!" when in fact one is living in a pricey home in a pricey area, driving a clown car too far, buying all sorts of luxuries, overpaying for everything, outsourcing everything, having lots of subscriptions, having expensive hobbies, etc. and quietly trading away years of one's life in the process.

We see such case studies all the time, often from people who think they are doing awesome because their point of reference is their spendy/broke friends instead of people who are actually on track to retire after 10-20 year careers.

The math doesn't lie, but the part where comparisons become tricky is the spectrum between Fat FIRE and Lean FIRE. Some high earners might Fat FIRE in 10 years and some low earners might Lean Fire in 25, but in either case we could say the person is doing well if they're satisfied with their path. A key observation of the MMM philosophy is that the Fat vs. Lean decision is a tradeoff between luxury and years of life. We all make our own decisions there, but to someone with an optimizer personality there's something useful in benchmarking one's level of weakness.

Or - and hear me out - people do some of the expensive things you listed because it works for them, and the alternative doesn't.

Like, do I optimize everything MMM-style? Absolutely not. Am I on a path that works for me and my family? Yes. Do I care that some stranger on the Internet thinks I'm soft, spendy, and whatnot? Also not.

[havregryn]

How do you guys define "poverty" in the US? I am asking because in Europe you are living at poverty level if you have cca 60% of the median disposable income in the country. That is at least how Eurostat standardizes this for comparisons. So the figure doesn't tell you anything about what that amount can buy, it just tells you that you live in a place where a vast majority of people have access to more money.
I think 90% of people here would be able to live on 60% of the median income in their area without feeling deprived.
We now spend 78k per year. 32 is mortgage and at least 20 is spending that is directly or indirectly related to having 3 kids. With no mortgage and no kids, spending 25k would be quite indulgent. And this is very high COL area, but no significant healthcare cost and no car. Pretty sure that there's not a single place in the EU where 25k per year wouldn't be a very generous budget for someone living in a paid off property.

[jim555]

Stated another way: it's pretty easy to say "this year I lived off <ridiculously small amount>" if you've deferred a bunch of expenses into the future.

Super low spenders like spartana and myself aren't deferring expenses.  I have been ridiculously low for the last 7 years.  I do see more spending on travel as things open up.  Then I will account for that spending as it happens.

[secondcor521]

So, for those of you with expenses in this range, at what amount of savings will you stop working? To avoid the housing argument, just state your assumptions for your housing situation, whatever they may be.

I would have stopped working at 25x spending plus a paid off house and car.

I hit that point and the job was still fine, so I worked another few years.

After working a bit longer, having the stock market be kind to my investments, and realizing that I had income that wasn't due to my portfolio, I'm now somewhere around 133x spending plus a paid off house and car.

I have done some of the deferral that was alluded to above, though, so I've probably got some moderately large house and car expenses in the near future.  At 133x I don't really worry too much about the accounting. (*)

@havregryn, the US has something called the Federal Poverty Level, or FPL.  You can google that term and find numbers.  It depends on family size and location, and goes up a bit each year with inflation.  For 1 person in the continental US in 2021, the number was $12,880.

(*) Which is largely a debate about what I think accountants call accruals.

[nereo]

How do you guys define "poverty" in the US? I am asking because in Europe you are living at poverty level if you have cca 60% of the median disposable income in the country. That is at least how Eurostat standardizes this for comparisons. So the figure doesn't tell you anything about what that amount can buy, it just tells you that you live in a place where a vast majority of people have access to more money.
I think 90% of people here would be able to live on 60% of the median income in their area without feeling deprived.
We now spend 78k per year. 32 is mortgage and at least 20 is spending that is directly or indirectly related to having 3 kids. With no mortgage and no kids, spending 25k would be quite indulgent. And this is very high COL area, but no significant healthcare cost and no car. Pretty sure that there's not a single place in the EU where 25k per year wouldn't be a very generous budget for someone living in a paid off property.

In the US poverty is officially defined;

https://aspe.hhs.gov/topics/poverty-economic-mobility/poverty-guidelines/prior-hhs-poverty-guidelines-federal-register-references/2021-poverty-guidelines

For a family of four, poverty is defined at $26,500 of household income and assumes the adults are employed, underemployed or unemployed (not retired). There are other poverty levels defined by particular regions or metropolitan areas in addition to the federal poverty levels.

[Steeze]

So, for those of you with expenses in this range, at what amount of savings will you stop working? To avoid the housing argument, just state your assumptions for your housing situation, whatever they may be.

Current spend 2700/mo, target is 4500, with paid off house, family of 3. I’ll probably quit the corporate world at $900k+paid off house. Then I’ll coast with part time / seasonal work for a few more years, and trade our city condo for a multi family somewhere more rural. If I ever get to the 1.5M+ range I would not feel the need to keep part time work.

[innkeeper77]

AFTER retirement sort of- but we are also soft. Our target is about $20k per person in 2014 dollars- so a bit over $23k, but that is after we no longer need to pay for daycare of course, and we want a paid off house OR additional investment income to cover a nice large low interest mortgage which is likely unless we find ourselves wanting to move.

[American GenX]

So, for those of you with expenses in this range, at what amount of savings will you stop working? To avoid the housing argument, just state your assumptions for your housing situation, whatever they may be.

Well, I'm over $2M and figured that would be enough, but with inflation skyrocketing with my costs increasing about 15% over the previous year, despite being very frugal, I might end up hanging on another year to help compensate for some of the high inflation.  I posted my bare bones expenses breakdown earlier.

[Abe]

Step 1: Have enough to pay for a beach house in full where we want in the country (done) - $600k

Step 2: Expenses for $50k per year - $1.3K ($400k so far)

Step 3: Leave ~$250k and a nice beach house for the kid ($60k so far).

Probably will be able to do so in 3 years? But we plan on working for at least 10 before downshifting since my job is awesome.

[jim555]

So, for those of you with expenses in this range, at what amount of savings will you stop working? To avoid the housing argument, just state your assumptions for your housing situation, whatever they may be.

Well, I'm over $2M and figured that would be enough, but with inflation skyrocketing with my costs increasing about 15% over the previous year, despite being very frugal, I might end up hanging on another year to help compensate for some of the high inflation.  I posted my bare bones expenses breakdown earlier.

You will be fine.  I think you over worry.

[havregryn]

@havregryn, the US has something called the Federal Poverty Level, or FPL.  You can google that term and find numbers.  It depends on family size and location, and goes up a bit each year with inflation.  For 1 person in the continental US in 2021, the number was $12,880.

Yes, but is this based on what people are earning or what things cost?
Because my point was that you can't call spending at poverty level to be deprivation just because that is the "poverty level" if the definition is based on average INCOME and not basic EXPENSES.
This might not be so obvious in an average area, but if you live somewhere real rich, it becomes obvious fast.

My walk to my 450€/month fitness center (I do some kind of a stationary bike in an infrared sauna, don't ask) involves passing by people with babies dressed head to toe in Burberry and several Maseratis but our non-mortgage spending (which includes my 450e/month sauna bike and several trips for a family of 5 and is at this point anything but Mustachian) would in fact, were it income, land us in poverty territory for Luxembourg.

[Holocene]

Well, I'm over $2M and figured that would be enough, but with inflation skyrocketing with my costs increasing about 15% over the previous year, despite being very frugal, I might end up hanging on another year to help compensate for some of the high inflation.  I posted my bare bones expenses breakdown earlier.

You stated you have over $50k (more than half your budget) for discretionary expenses.  And you're seriously worried about a bit of inflation?  Enough to do OMY?  I mean, if you like working then keep at it.  But it seems like you always have some excuse not to pull the plug and I think this is irrational if you really do want to retire.

[Holocene]

@havregryn, the US has something called the Federal Poverty Level, or FPL.  You can google that term and find numbers.  It depends on family size and location, and goes up a bit each year with inflation.  For 1 person in the continental US in 2021, the number was $12,880.

Yes, but is this based on what people are earning or what things cost?
Because my point was that you can't call spending at poverty level to be deprivation just because that is the "poverty level" if the definition is based on average INCOME and not basic EXPENSES.
This might not be so obvious in an average area, but if you live somewhere real rich, it becomes obvious fast.

My walk to my 450€/month fitness center (I do some kind of a stationary bike in an infrared sauna, don't ask) involves passing by people with babies dressed head to toe in Burberry and several Maseratis but our non-mortgage spending (which includes my 450e/month sauna bike and several trips for a family of 5 and is at this point anything but Mustachian) would in fact, were it income, land us in poverty territory for Luxembourg.

In the US, there's a federal standard developed in the 1960s derived from the cost of a minimum food diet multiplied by 3.  It's just been indexed to inflation ever since the 1960s and has not officially been redefined since then.  Definitely not based on average income for an area, and the US definitely has a very large gap between the HCOL and LCOL areas so a federal guideline isn't very accurate for a lot of places.

https://www.census.gov/topics/income-poverty/poverty/about/history-of-the-poverty-measure.html

[jim555]

Those Federal Poverty Levels are absurdly low.  If you had a paid off house then maybe in some places you could squeeze by.

[havregryn]

@havregryn, the US has something called the Federal Poverty Level, or FPL.  You can google that term and find numbers.  It depends on family size and location, and goes up a bit each year with inflation.  For 1 person in the continental US in 2021, the number was $12,880.

Yes, but is this based on what people are earning or what things cost?
Because my point was that you can't call spending at poverty level to be deprivation just because that is the "poverty level" if the definition is based on average INCOME and not basic EXPENSES.
This might not be so obvious in an average area, but if you live somewhere real rich, it becomes obvious fast.

My walk to my 450€/month fitness center (I do some kind of a stationary bike in an infrared sauna, don't ask) involves passing by people with babies dressed head to toe in Burberry and several Maseratis but our non-mortgage spending (which includes my 450e/month sauna bike and several trips for a family of 5 and is at this point anything but Mustachian) would in fact, were it income, land us in poverty territory for Luxembourg.

In the US, there's a federal standard developed in the 1960s derived from the cost of a minimum food diet multiplied by 3.  It's just been indexed to inflation ever since the 1960s and has not officially been redefined since then.  Definitely not based on average income for an area, and the US definitely has a very large gap between the HCOL and LCOL areas so a federal guideline isn't very accurate for a lot of places.

https://www.census.gov/topics/income-poverty/poverty/about/history-of-the-poverty-measure.html

Thanks, yeah, that sounds too low then.
Here I really find myself cynical too often. I am not originally from Luxembourg, I grew up in a poor country and the thought that Luxembourg thinks a family of 5 that has 6000€ per month to spend is "poor" rubs me the wrong way. I mean, I totally get it how that budget would not allow Burberry jackets for babies and a Maserati, but in my naive eyes there is a massive area between living in deprivation and spending money on vanity items.

[tarheeldan]

I joined the forums back in 2014. No question, the average forum member is more spendypants now!

My average annual spending from 2006 to date is 25,900 *including rent*
(whereas MMM had a paid-off home PLUS the $25k)

I am spending more this year, as I moved to Texas (rents are going up fast) and because I replaced my car this year.

[partgypsy]

I haven't changed in that the whole time I've been on here I've been musctachian lite, but agree that the forum as a whole has become more mushy, lax about calling out spending. I'm of mixed mind about it. Some people are not going to go from 0 to 60, plus many people are with partners who don't place as much importance on it. Better to keep a good relationship than break up because someone is not rinsing the plastic sandwich bags. But I think a good portion of the people here ARE here for the face punches. So I don't think that should go away, exp in threads where people are asking for that kind of feedback!

[BookLoverL]

Just caught up reading the discussion about housing - it definitely makes sense to me to account for future potential house maintenance expenses, such as boiler replacement, roof, etc. As long as I haven't FIREd yet then for me personally that is accounted for by having at least 2 years' worth of typical expenses available in a format I can access right away if needed, and then potentially doing OMY or trying to earn more income to recover the amount.

I'm a bit unconventional for this board - I'm not actually sure when/if I will properly FIRE, since I became disabled after I discovered FIRE but before I started working and have always had such a low income. I wanted to do the 5-10 years to FIRE originally, but without full time work, I wasn't able to. Actually, for me, the main thing applying FIRE principles is doing is allowing me to live well at *all* on the amount I'm able to learn. Even though my expenses are so low, because of the low income it's still only 30-40% savings. But I avoid a lot of the financial stress and/or being forced to live with people they hate that I see a lot of disabled people I know experience. (Specifically the ones who, like me, also can't work full time.) And I'm hoping to improve my income at some point if I can, so that I can actually do the RE part of FIRE sometime.

But yes, in light of my FIRE goal being unconventional that way, I'm lightyears ahead of most disabled part time workers in that I *can* actually afford major work on the house if I need to.

About rent, it definitely doesn't make sense for me to always write my expenses as *if* I was paying mortgage or rent. What I want to know is am I doing enough work this year in particular or not, mostly. My new job (starting in January) is 18.5 hours a week and a bit less than £9000 a year. If I were renting I'd need to side-hustle an extra couple of thousand, but since I'm not, then I can rest safe in the knowledge that any side hustling I try is out of fun and not necessity and I don't need to wear myself out over it.

We don't really get most natural disasters in the UK, but if the house burnt down in a fire, then a) we have house insurance, and b) I have enough saved to rent somewhere right away while I figured out what I was doing, and to pay the amount needed for a rental lifestyle for over a year. Plus, I'd try to find somewhere where I wasn't renting alone, which would bring my expenditure back down again. It's only if I were solo renting that I'd be over the £9000 figure.

So yes, for most people who aren't renting or paying a mortgage, it doesn't really make sense to calculate all their expenses as if they were, as long as they have enough liquidity to cover themselves to rent for a while if they needed to while they reassessed the situation.

[Zikoris]

So, for those of you with expenses in this range, at what amount of savings will you stop working? To avoid the housing argument, just state your assumptions for your housing situation, whatever they may be.

We will probably pull the plug somewhere in the 700-750K ballpark. That's enough to cover our current lifestyle, including rent, and I don't see us ever living anywhere MORE expensive than downtown Vancouver. The exact stopping point will depend more on what's going on in our lives/the world versus hitting a specific number. My partner also plans to continue his editing business, just greatly scaled back to only include books/authors he really loves.

[Zikoris]

So, for those of you with expenses in this range, at what amount of savings will you stop working? To avoid the housing argument, just state your assumptions for your housing situation, whatever they may be.

We will probably pull the plug somewhere in the 700-750K ballpark. That's enough to cover our current lifestyle, including rent, and I don't see us ever living anywhere MORE expensive than downtown Vancouver. The exact stopping point will depend more on what's going on in our lives/the world versus hitting a specific number. My partner also plans to continue his editing business, just greatly scaled back to only include books/authors he really loves.

Are you worried that rent increases will outstrip your income if they increase by a large percent throughout the years or even fast in certain conditions like now?  I've seen this happening now in the LA metro area and it has increased so fast and so high here lately that many are being outpriced even for studio apts. It's one of my fears if I choose to be a lifelong renter. I've been a homeowner of a paid off place since FIREing and am currently renting a shared place with BF while looking for a new place to buy (not here!) but ideally I do like renting.

No, because we don't intend to stay in Vancouver - we'll have the flexibility to move wherever we want. And our budget is so ridiculously fat that it would be incredibly easy to absorb anything. If we were determined to live in one specific area forever, we would definitely plan accordingly and either buy or include a big rent buffer.

[skip207]

Great question OP.

Our run down:
Utils £420
Transport £250
Food etc £550
Subs / Fees £100
total c.£1300mo/£15.6kpa

This is c.20% increase from 2019...

Outside this I have
Entertainment £500
Sundries / unexpected £200
Pleasure Travel £500

[Kazyan]

I'm operating at about $18k per year, as a single person in an LCOL area, and I'm trying to keep it that way. While I'm aware of inflation and the "everywhere is different!" observation, I don't want to use those as reasons to shrug and open my wallet. Hard numbers work better for me in achieving goals.

That being said, even though I've finally ditched my car, my frugality muscles have largely plateaued for about a year and a half now. I keep wanting to get around to starting a balcony garden to help with my food expenses and then just not doing it.

[SpareChange]

So, for those of you with expenses in this range, at what amount of savings will you stop working? To avoid the housing argument, just state your assumptions for your housing situation, whatever they may be.

I'm a small apartment guy. My expenses last year were $21,875. I'd probably sever employment at 750k, maybe less.

[dizzy]

Cripes, I've never even MADE more than 25k a year until the last 3 years.  I'm 40.  A hazard of my occupations (music and more recently, acupuncture)

So yeah, my FIRE number definitely accounts for WTF less than $25k a year to live on.  This year I've spent more than I ever have (partly due to working 6-7 days a week very often partly due to planning a wedding in NJ on $5-6k AKA lots of stress!) and STILL did not spend anywhere near $2083/mo.  This is in NJ suburbs of Philly, 20 minutes away (not north Jersey by any means but still not LCOL area).  I've lived my entire adult life excepting a 2.5 year travel period in NJ/Philly/LA and never spent anywhere near that much a year.

I'm thinking more like $15k a year as FIRE number.  TBH I will always work a little (music, acupuncture subbing, churning, misc side hustles) so I'm not crazy worried.  I like my works but I really want schedule freedom, I love thru hiking and travel and can't do that right now. 

I will say though that FIRE for me (and my husband, tho he is doin his own route to it) will include having a house (ours is paid off in 2 years, something I did not expect but I guess I married the right guy lol), retirement home (aka our little 17' camper, we plan to travel and work in parks...which will also supplement income).  Also I'm not using social security in the plan for it, I don't think it will be a huge amount but it will be more of a cushion for health expenses.

$1250/mo with no rent/mortgage payment seems like such a splurge to me, especially since right now I have to spend so much on toll and parking for work.  I saw a thread on the leanFIRE reddit that was like $22k was absolute minimum for leanFIRE and I just really had a hard time relating to that.

[dcheesi]

BookLoverL, I think the exchange rate between dollars and pounds can be deceptive when you try to compare the cost of living....

Hmm, interesting. If someone wants to do these kind of calculations they can but it sounds like more work than I can be bothered with right now, though.

I have heard about things like food deserts in the USA where there's large areas where things like fresh veg just can't be found at all.

Alternatively, I think there are some products where the USA has a much wider choice of product for each type of product than most other countries do, so there's that.

Either way, an extra 25-30% on the exchange rate would still have me spending less than MMM by some way. Actually, the £6000 I quoted above was my extreme maximum amount - a more realistic amount if I don't spend on a bunch of extra frivolous stuff will be more like £5300, and that's only because I haven't cancelled a few old subscriptions yet. (Remembering to cancel subscriptions is my nemesis, which is why I only ever got a debit card and not a credit card.)

I don't think you actually need to do the calculations, but I think it's just worth knowing that some of the higher costs from US posters are due to basic things costing more, rather than only due to spendy habits.

There are some urban 'food deserts' where you just have some corner stores with overpriced food and not much variety. When I lived somewhere like that, I used to shop for pasta and rice and tinned food when I visited my parents in a rural area, and then I just bought milk and eggs and some fresh food locally. Or I'd drive to a supermarket in a different neighbourhood. Not everybody has those options, but hopefully things are better now that there are more supermarkets that deliver.

I wasn't talking about food deserts initially, though. Except for meat, basic food costs are generally much lower in the UK. I just got a big Tesco delivery to refill my larder and freezer after having used up as much as I could and defrosted the freezer. A few things that especially stand out as being cheaper than in the US (US people can tell better how much these would cost now since I've been away 6 years):
bag of soft citrus fruit (600g) = £0.69
pack of 10 little scones with sultanas = £0.49
tin of kidney beans (400g) = £0.30
fig rolls (200g, like store brand of Fig Newtons) = £0.37
penne pasta (500g) = £0.29
Women's sanitary products are also a tiny fraction of the US cost for whatever reason.

I just went back and checked my spending totals from 2020. With the lockdown and no travel, this was probably the lowest spend year I could have. Not including mortgage, rent, and charitable giving, I spent £7,547.31 = $10,124.71 US = $13,162.12 Kwill dollars. This included all my regular bills and utilities and food plus gifts and the purchase of a computer monitor and new mouse and keyboard and a digital piano and piano bench and a lot of books to keep me happy in lockdown. I also paid for weekly piano lessons during much of 2020 since I started that as a lockdown hobby. I was paying more for groceries than usual because I was nervous about going into the big supermarket and couldn't get deliveries from the big places. Instead I was getting mini deliveries from Co-op and buying some comfort foods when possible. So it wasn't the most frugal possible year but was well below $25,000.

FWIW, the Big Mac Index has the UK Pound undervalued by about 15% atm.

[johndoe]

Over the last 60 months, my personal capital data shows spending (exempting extra principal payoff) averaging $14.6k/yr. I'm in accumulation phase and have a roommate.

Interesting topic, I want to add something I haven't seen mentioned yet: "replay value" of a forum like this.  While there are some active vets on here, generally I think the forum caters to folks just getting set on the FIRE path.  Once you get the principles, I just don't think there is much to come back for.  How many times do you want to read "should I pay off my mortgage?"?  Sure it's fun to come back now and again, but IMO it's way different than a forum on insert hobby here where there are new developments all the time.

[OtherJen]

It has got super spendy on here. The usual justification is that it is ok if it “aligns with your values” or involves gratuitous international travel.

DW and I are running at about £28k all-in (UK) but that includes a lot more house maintenance than usual (but less holidays). About £30k has been the target for a while, so we are a little under.

Ha, yeah. I've gotten snarked on here for using a clothes dryer so that my clothes don't reek of mildew in summer and require repeated washings (and wasted water). Other posters take multiple overseas plane trips per year, have fully air-conditioned houses 3-4x larger than mine and/or a daily commute to work, and/or eat in restaurants regularly, all of which is apparently fine...I haven't been on a plane in more than 6 years, work from home in my tiny house with no central A/C, and eat in restaurants maybe twice a month.

I've never made more than US$58K per year. Husband has never made more than US$40K (and is currently making $30K in a much lower-stress job located 2 miles from home). Our monthly spend is $2500-3000, and that feels a bit excessive. We've gotten a bit lax over the last year as I've taken on several new professional and volunteer responsibilities. Maybe this winter I'll work on tightening up the budget again and socking even more cash into investments.

The forums haven't been nearly as appealing to me lately because they do seem less like MMM and more like Bogleheads. I can't relate at all to many of the posts.

[effigies]

I'll throw in my 2¢ here.

I've lived off of $15k a year or less (often less) most of my life. There have been the occasional big purchase years (buying a home and car in cash) but overall the numbers are fairly consistent. While I could retire now if I want to continue to live at this budget, I am working to "Fat FIRE" in the range of $30-40k. This number (which is huge for me) was determined as a result of multiple incalculable factors (an unpredictable future, wanting to do more in retirement, and moving to another house/location eventually).

Realistically, I think I would struggle to spend $25-30k a year but will continue to plug away due to these unknown factors.
Even if I hit a larger FIRE number and do not need nearly as much money, I do not foresee myself dramatically changing my lifestyle regarding my consumer habits.

PS I agree with the others that suggest there has been a lot of lifestyle bloat mentioned here. I don't post often but have been visiting the forums for years, and I'm reading about a lot of comfort purchases (e.g. homes, cars, private education/lessons, eating habits, etc) being framed as life necessities.

[mizzourah2006]

I think it's important to remember that MMMs post was in the context of 1 or 2 years. He even has pictures and describes all of the "stuff" they've already accumulated. 2 cars, 5 computers, 6 bikes, a home gym, a band setup, kayaks, etc. He also mentions that they've recently been staying in the US for trips, but that they plan to travel abroad more often as their kid gets older. He also mentioned $27k, which is about $32k today. I totally think it would be reasonable for my family of 4 to spend $32k for even 3-5 years if we really wanted to. I think it becomes a bit more unreasonable when you start to factor in things like new bikes/sporting equipment as they get older, expanding vacations outside of your region (if you can afford it), etc.

I think the context of the post was that it's possible to live a good life on less than $30k/yr, even a life that most would consider truly middle class. Not that, that is all anyone should ever want. Heck, even he later started buying cars, building mancaves, buying property, etc. I mean, he created an awesome community and an awesome website that generated a lot of income, so I don't hold it against him at all, but to pretend that everyone should strive to live off of $30k/yr for a family of 3 or 4 or they are "spendy pants" was never even really the purpose of his first post IMO. No way he could have accumulated all of the stuff he mentioned/showed in the original article, or done the traveling he described doing before having his kid on $30k/yr. So by that context MMM is a "spendy pants" too.

[Dreamer40]

I get so tired of the more-Mustachian-than-thou attitude on here sometimes. Can we all just recognize that everybody is an a different context and quit judging/comparing? Most people starting on the FIRE journey today cannot buy a house for as little as people did 15 years ago. Some people value living near family in areas that happen to be expensive. Also, it can sometimes be easier for people to find a high paying job and live on a “high” budget than it is for them to find cheap housing. We all have different life goals and financial constraints. Let’s just assume everyone is thoughtfully trying their best.

[DadJokes]

I get so tired of the more-Mustachian-than-thou attitude on here sometimes. Can we all just recognize that everybody is an a different context and quit judging/comparing? Most people starting on the FIRE journey today cannot buy a house for as little as people did 15 years ago. Some people value living near family in areas that happen to be expensive. Also, it can sometimes be easier for people to find a high paying job and live on a “high” budget than it is for them to find cheap housing. We all have different life goals and financial constraints. Let’s just assume everyone is thoughtfully trying their best.

There are enough places on the internet where people don't question expenses. There are precious few where that does happen. MMM forum has already gone way soft over the years, and yet we still get folks complaining that it's not soft enough.

If you aren't secure enough with your lifestyle and spending that you can't handle defending it, then maybe you need to reflect on that.

[maisymouser]

I'm here for facepunches. One of the main draws to this forum, IMHO. I like to be challenged.

"If it doesn't challenge you, it doesn't change you."

[BookLoverL]

I personally at least think the the people who are earning and spending the higher figures but still saving are still of course doing a great job compared to other people in their income class. Mainly I started the thread because I was starting to feel out of place as a *lower* spender on here, and that people might be more inclined to tell me I was too extreme or that I ought to earn more money and my total income was clearly an unliveable amount, rather than have people actually challenge my spending.

I think the challenge is an important aspect of the forum and the MMM philosophy, or at least it used to be. The whole idea of posting about your expenses on here is so that someone with an outside perspective can suggest a place where you could save that you might not have thought of - if you want every expense of yours to be validated and insist you can't cut anything, you're not going to manage to increase your savings rate, when a big chunk of the forum is supposed to be about helping you do just that.

I think the key thing is to look at where someone's at right now and suggest initially adjustments that seem appropriate to their current level and mindset. e.g. if someone has a new car, starting by suggesting they switch to a used car, rather than straight away going to "have you considered selling it and going everywhere by foot, public transport, and bicycle". But if someone's car is already used and is also a big chunk of their yearly expenditure, then the second thing is probably what they might need to be considering if they want to get to a lower spend.

Actually, when I see someone with a high salary and high spend, I more end up judging myself rather than them, and feeling bad about my inability to earn more money...

[Zikoris]

I get so tired of the more-Mustachian-than-thou attitude on here sometimes. Can we all just recognize that everybody is an a different context and quit judging/comparing? Most people starting on the FIRE journey today cannot buy a house for as little as people did 15 years ago. Some people value living near family in areas that happen to be expensive. Also, it can sometimes be easier for people to find a high paying job and live on a “high” budget than it is for them to find cheap housing. We all have different life goals and financial constraints. Let’s just assume everyone is thoughtfully trying their best.

Disagree. Pretty much the entire rest of the internet + real life people will coddle you as much as you like. A reality check once in awhile is a good thing.

[swashbucklinstache]

I personally at least think the the people who are earning and spending the higher figures but still saving are still of course doing a great job compared to other people in their income class. Mainly I started the thread because I was starting to feel out of place as a *lower* spender on here, and that people might be more inclined to tell me I was too extreme or that I ought to earn more money and my total income was clearly an unliveable amount, rather than have people actually challenge my spending.

I think the challenge is an important aspect of the forum and the MMM philosophy, or at least it used to be. The whole idea of posting about your expenses on here is so that someone with an outside perspective can suggest a place where you could save that you might not have thought of - if you want every expense of yours to be validated and insist you can't cut anything, you're not going to manage to increase your savings rate, when a big chunk of the forum is supposed to be about helping you do just that.

I think the key thing is to look at where someone's at right now and suggest initially adjustments that seem appropriate to their current level and mindset. e.g. if someone has a new car, starting by suggesting they switch to a used car, rather than straight away going to "have you considered selling it and going everywhere by foot, public transport, and bicycle". But if someone's car is already used and is also a big chunk of their yearly expenditure, then the second thing is probably what they might need to be considering if they want to get to a lower spend.

Actually, when I see someone with a high salary and high spend, I more end up judging myself rather than them, and feeling bad about my inability to earn more money...

Never forget that you're seeing the upside but maybe not the downside of their choices
-sincerely, guy from upthread with picture of +140k to annual income over 10 years who had a hell of a go with a higher paying job and paid for those raises in (metaphorical) blood. It's 50/50 if I'd go back and stay at lower pay if I had a time machine. I don't now since the blood's out already, and I'm not sure I could hack the other job anymore without it..

I agree with your other points. I'd add that, as a person working after reaching FI from my current satisfactory if not amazing lifestyle, I feel zero negative emotion about spending more except for as it impacts the environment. Quite similarly, if I knew my best life stache number was reachable in a reasonable timeline on X per year and loved my job I'd have no interest in chasing the dragon.