New FIRE Spend Poll

[wageslave23]

This is your planned FIRE spend per person on an annual basis.  Please note that it is spend and not withdrawal rate.  And that it is per person and not per household.  Also please select whether you have a paid off house or will still be paying rent or a mortgage.  Thanks for your responses!   I hope this clears up a previous poll that I think would have had interesting results except that the answers got mixed up.

[wenchsenior]

Does the spend include only cash from investments, or is it meant to include pension, SS, part time or gig work, etc.?

[2Birds1Stone]

Does the spend include only cash from investments, or is it meant to include pension, SS, part time or gig work, etc.?

Pretty sure the second sentence makes this very clear.

We are planning on $36-42k/yr without owning a home. Desired FIRE # = $1.1M

[uniwelder]

Does the spend include only cash from investments, or is it meant to include pension, SS, part time or gig work, etc.?

Seemed pretty clear it’s the amount of money you spend annually. Why would the source of funds matter?

As a married couple paying a mortgage, we’d be spending about 35k/year together, so I voted 16-20 including mortgage/rent.

[Jack0Life]

~$45k-$50k for 2 with a $1100/month 30 yr mortgage.
Budget will be $42k with $5k cushion.

[SpareChange]

I voted 21-30k with rent. I tried to include things like potential income taxes, vehicle depreciation, and "fun" in that estimate. I live in a small apartment, no roommate. Total spending was about 22k last year.

[Mr. Green]

Selected the 16-20k w/ rent or mortgage option but that could just as easily have been 11-15k w/ a paid-off house. Not sure what our long-term shelter situation is going to look like.

[Metalcat]

I have no idea what we will actually spend in retirement because every single projection has us saving way too much money, but we live a pretty lux life on ~45-55K for two people, and that includes a lot of medical expenses, which add up to more than our housing costs at the moment.

[simonsez]

Pensions + SS will be more than 62k already for two people so selected the highest option.  Member of the DPOYM crowd during accumulation years but I could see myself wiping out the balance just prior to retirement, not sure though.

[wageslave23]

Interesting results so far. We are definitely not going to be confused with Early Retirement Extreme.  MMM when he had his 3 person family and $25k spend with a paid off house would be in the lowest 10% of forum voters. 

[Zikoris]

We're not retired yet, but have very consistently and easily spent a combined 24-28K/year, including rent, for about a decade now, so that's our long term plan as well.

[simonsez]

Interesting results so far. We are definitely not going to be confused with Early Retirement Extreme.  MMM when he had his 3 person family and $25k spend with a paid off house would be in the lowest 10% of forum voters.

Well I certainly hope that the founder of a frugality website would be on the low end!

Also:
a) people count their spending differently
2) 25k years ago is not 25k today
d) Some plan to spend more than others.  Some will live off the land almost completely and spend very little in terms of dollars (but plenty of sweat equity).  Others have 8 figure net worths and want to donate large amounts to charities/future generations.  I like that this forum cannot be reduced to a single profile or stereotype.  I think of it as a feature instead of a bug.

[wageslave23]

Interesting results so far. We are definitely not going to be confused with Early Retirement Extreme.  MMM when he had his 3 person family and $25k spend with a paid off house would be in the lowest 10% of forum voters.

Well I certainly hope that the founder of a frugality website would be on the low end!

Also:
a) people count their spending differently
2) 25k years ago is not 25k today
d) Some plan to spend more than others.  Some will live off the land almost completely and spend very little in terms of dollars (but plenty of sweat equity).  Others have 8 figure net worths and want to donate large amounts to charities/future generations.  I like that this forum cannot be reduced to a single profile or stereotype.  I think of it as a feature instead of a bug.

Those are all valid points.  But I would counter that with what drew me to the MMM site is his frugality.  It would be nice to have a community with forum members who are similar to him.  If I want to talk to someone about spending $30k+ per person a year, I can talk to any of my neighbors and most of my coworkers.  I'm not complaining too much, I like the diversity,  but it would be nice to not feel like a frugal outsider at least somewhere.

[BrendanP]

Looks like you should add some more options at the higher end to capture what is really going on.

[ender]

Per... adult? Or per person, including children?

[Loren Ver]

Oddly, the per person was hard for us.  Our budget is in the 36-38k range so I just divided it by a two person household, with a mortgage, but that's not really accurate.  Our spending split is not 50/50 by any means.  It's enough that we would actually fall into different poll categories if that was allowed.

I'm the spendy one :).

[Metalcat]

Interesting results so far. We are definitely not going to be confused with Early Retirement Extreme.  MMM when he had his 3 person family and $25k spend with a paid off house would be in the lowest 10% of forum voters.

Well I certainly hope that the founder of a frugality website would be on the low end!

Also:
a) people count their spending differently
2) 25k years ago is not 25k today
d) Some plan to spend more than others.  Some will live off the land almost completely and spend very little in terms of dollars (but plenty of sweat equity).  Others have 8 figure net worths and want to donate large amounts to charities/future generations.  I like that this forum cannot be reduced to a single profile or stereotype.  I think of it as a feature instead of a bug.

Those are all valid points.  But I would counter that with what drew me to the MMM site is his frugality.  It would be nice to have a community with forum members who are similar to him.  If I want to talk to someone about spending $30k+ per person a year, I can talk to any of my neighbors and most of my coworkers.  I'm not complaining too much, I like the diversity,  but it would be nice to not feel like a frugal outsider at least somewhere.

To be fair, when you factor in housing and inflation, his spending wasn't far off a household today spending 60ishK/yr.
Also, his lifestyle has inflated a ton because he can inflate it through business expenses, which I think is awesome, but it's not a 25K spend lifestyle.

I agree though, I wish we had more members with much lower spends, but I can't really complain because I'm not one of them.

[uniwelder]

Looks like you should add some more options at the higher end to capture what is really going on.

Agree, I'm above the max category. A good third of that goes to charitable causes, dunno if that lines up with others.

I’d suggest not including money given to others as part of your personal spending.

In defense of the narrow/low dollar categories, it follows the frugal range the OP believes people of this forum should be striving for.

[windytrail]

I just put my current spending, no idea what it will be at FIRE.

This year, planning to spend about $30k in one of the most expensive areas in the country, including $900/month in rent (per person, split 50/50 with my partner).

[jim555]

I have been around $15K a year since I retired 6.5 years ago.  Less than 9 years to my $22K pension.  Social Security is gravy.

[stoaX]

I selected the $16-20k per person based on 1.5 years of retirement.   It's just me and Mrs Stoax and we spend about $37k per year.  It's funny how some high cost stuff during our retirement (like moving) have been offset by money saving things (like no travel during the pandemic).

I'll report back in a few years....if I remember.....

[Glenstache]

Thanks for posting this. I was dreadfully vague and unclear with the one I posted.

[Glenstache]

Looks like you should add some more options at the higher end to capture what is really going on.

Agree, I'm above the max category. A good third of that goes to charitable causes, dunno if that lines up with others.

I’d suggest not including money given to others as part of your personal spending.

In defense of the narrow/low dollar categories, it follows the frugal range the OP believes people of this forum should be striving for.

What ever happened to just handing out facepunches for clownish money habits? In all seriousness, I think it is important to include categories at higher annual burn rates. There are a lot of people on this forum that I infer from their posts would have a 4% rate of  more than double the upper range above. It also isn't about a race to the bottom for the sake of frugality. It is to make sure that you are not *wasting* your money and the time it takes to earn it.

[Dreamer40]

The assumptions in this poll about income and frugality levels are so interesting. I think there is a much bigger range of spending represented by people here. The poll ignores fatFIRE or chubbyFIRE. Not everyone thinks maximum frugality leads to the most satisfying life. And some people ended up in careers where they made buckets of money so they stuck it out long enough to retire (still early) very comfortably. FIRE is about figuring out our own balance of how long to work and how much the lifestyle we want costs. It could reasonably include spending levels way off this poll’s suggested upper range.

[Mr. Green]

What ever happened to just handing out facepunches for clownish money habits? In all seriousness, I think it is important to include categories at higher annual burn rates. There are a lot of people on this forum that I infer from their posts would have a 4% rate of  more than double the upper range above. It also isn't about a race to the bottom for the sake of frugality. It is to make sure that you are not *wasting* your money and the time it takes to earn it.

There are a lot of people on this forum targeting 120k+ in annual spend for a couple? Wow. I knew going mainstream was changing the demographic a bit but that's....interesting.

[uniwelder]

What ever happened to just handing out facepunches for clownish money habits? In all seriousness, I think it is important to include categories at higher annual burn rates. There are a lot of people on this forum that I infer from their posts would have a 4% rate of  more than double the upper range above. It also isn't about a race to the bottom for the sake of frugality. It is to make sure that you are not *wasting* your money and the time it takes to earn it.

The assumptions in this poll about income and frugality levels are so interesting. I think there is a much bigger range of spending represented by people here. The poll ignores fatFIRE or chubbyFIRE. Not everyone thinks maximum frugality leads to the most satisfying life. And some people ended up in careers where they made buckets of money so they stuck it out long enough to retire (still early) very comfortably. FIRE is about figuring out our own balance of how long to work and how much the lifestyle we want costs. It could reasonably include spending levels way off this poll’s suggested upper range.

There's all sorts of ways to do FIRE, but this is the MMM forums, so it shouldn't be surprising when this pushback occurs.  The most basic idea of the MMM philosophy is for life habits centered around 1) anti- consumerism, 2) pro- environmentalism, 3) pro- DIY, 4) pro- healthy living, and 5) pro- saving/investing.  The outcome when following that leads to the ability to FIRE.  Have either of you read the blog postings?  If yes, then do you disagree with the general MMM message?

[wageslave23]

I picked the up the upper limit categories that I did for a few reasons.
1. I didn't anticipate there being so many in the higher brackets.
2. I selected the ranges I was interested in
3. Who really cares whether you spend $40k per person or 70k per person.  We get it, you have a lot of money, select 31k+ move on.

[wageslave23]

After doing this exercise, I realized that kids drop our spending a lot lower on a per person basis.  With 2 kids we are under $10k per person.  When the kids move out, I don't anticipate our spending dropping much if at all.  Then we could easily be at $20k per person with paid off house.  So then we would not be very frugal at all.  I'm still more interested in the people that manage to live on $10k or so per year.  Thats fascinating to me.

[ender]

After doing this exercise, I realized that kids drop our spending a lot lower on a per person basis.  With 2 kids we are under $10k per person.  When the kids move out, I don't anticipate our spending dropping much if at all.  Then we could easily be at $20k per person with paid off house.  So then we would not be very frugal at all.  I'm still more interested in the people that manage to live on $10k or so per year.  Thats fascinating to me.

Yeah, kids make this equation really weird.

[simonsez]

Looks like you should add some more options at the higher end to capture what is really going on.

Agree, I'm above the max category. A good third of that goes to charitable causes, dunno if that lines up with others.

I’d suggest not including money given to others as part of your personal spending.

Isn't charitable spending still spending that is budgeted for prior to FIRE?  I don't see that any differently than money someone has earmarked for a new boat, a kitchen remodel, or their kids'/grandkids' college gift.  Hell, you could argue taxes are dollars given to others so should that not be included either?  The OP didn't seem to have a narrow definition of personal spending listed in the directions for answering the poll, rather it was just spending per person which I took to include all expenditures expected on average during a year of retirement.

[American GenX]

I'm usually complaining about the available options in these polls, but I'm shaking my head with the available options here.  Is it a joke?

I'm a very frugal single person with a paid off home in a LCOL area with an 80%+ savings rate in most recent years, and I'm estimating $90K/yr spending on average during the first 17 years of FIRE.  The highest option in the poll begins at only $31K.  There should be a few more tiers above that to make this poll more useful.

Some notes:  Kids are people, too.  And spending is spending, and that includes taxes, charity, mortgage payments, and other types of spending.

[uniwelder]

I'm usually complaining about the available options in these polls, but I'm shaking my head with the available options here.  Is it a joke?

I'm a very frugal single person with a paid off home in a LCOL area with an 80%+ savings rate in most recent years, and I'm estimating $90K/yr spending on average during the first 17 years of FIRE.  The highest option in the poll begins at only $31K.  There should be a few more tiers above that to make this poll more useful.

Some notes:  Kids are people, too.  And spending is spending, and that includes taxes, charity, mortgage payments, and other types of spending.

Very frugal in a LCOL area with a paid off house, but plan to spend 90k/year.  That leads me to believe you're either 1) trolling, 2) don't understand what frugal means, or 3) are planning on the majority of your spending to go to charity or medical needs.

edited to add--- So I read through some of your previous posts and #1 seems to fit.  Here's from a posting in March 2021---- 

I could get by on $22K/yr in early FIRE including taxes and sinking funds just by staying in my home - that's just getting the bills paid, not FAT fire.  But, $50K/yr would be pretty FAT from my perspective if I stayed put, and my stash and retirement income will allow about 50% more than that.  I also realize there are others here that would consider $50K/yr a hardship.

[Metalcat]

I'm usually complaining about the available options in these polls, but I'm shaking my head with the available options here.  Is it a joke?

I'm a very frugal single person with a paid off home in a LCOL area with an 80%+ savings rate in most recent years, and I'm estimating $90K/yr spending on average during the first 17 years of FIRE.  The highest option in the poll begins at only $31K.  There should be a few more tiers above that to make this poll more useful.

Some notes:  Kids are people, too.  And spending is spending, and that includes taxes, charity, mortgage payments, and other types of spending.

Yeah, 31K per person isn't very high for a single person. If DH and I split up, my expenses wouldn't drop very much at all, and they would be higher than 31K.

[bmjohnson35]

We plan 40k for two, but don't spend that much.  We live comfortably. Between Covid and unexpected move-in of my mom this year, our actual spend would likely have been a little higher otherwise. 

[norajean]

Do expenditures include income taxes? Property taxes? 

Most answers are in the top bucket which indicates truncation.

[American GenX]

I'm usually complaining about the available options in these polls, but I'm shaking my head with the available options here.  Is it a joke?

I'm a very frugal single person with a paid off home in a LCOL area with an 80%+ savings rate in most recent years, and I'm estimating $90K/yr spending on average during the first 17 years of FIRE.  The highest option in the poll begins at only $31K.  There should be a few more tiers above that to make this poll more useful.

Some notes:  Kids are people, too.  And spending is spending, and that includes taxes, charity, mortgage payments, and other types of spending.

Very frugal in a LCOL area with a paid off house, but plan to spend 90k/year.  That leads me to believe you're either 1) trolling, 2) don't understand what frugal means, or 3) are planning on the majority of your spending to go to charity or medical needs.

You're wrong on all counts.  lol   As I stated, I've had around 80% savings rate in most recent years.  My total spending, excluding sinking funds, has been under $1300/mo.  I would say that's pretty frugal, even if you don't get it.  Also, estimated medical expenses and charity are not that high.  Previous references:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/share-your-badassity/share-your-2020-savings-rate!/msg2763671/#msg2763671
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/2020-spending-thread/msg2763526/#msg2763526

Also, a couple other people made similar comments, so it looks like I'm not the only one who thinks there should be more tiers.

edited to add--- So I read through some of your previous posts and #1 seems to fit.  Here's from a posting in March 2021---- 

I could get by on $22K/yr in early FIRE including taxes and sinking funds just by staying in my home - that's just getting the bills paid, not FAT fire.

So, who's trolling whom, here?  lol  Not sure what the point of posting an old quote was, but that's still accurate, although I've increased that estimate of that scenario a little due to high inflation since then.  And also note, that particular quoted figure excludes all discretionary spending and assumes I don't relocate, which is why it specifically says "staying in my home".  Relocating is quite likely and will increase base expenses.  And that has no bearing on the limitation of the poll selections that I was pointing out, along with some others here.

[American GenX]

Do expenditures include income taxes? Property taxes? 

For property taxes, I would say yes, they are always expenses, one of my largest expenses, in fact.

For income taxes, the general consensus seems to be yes during the drawdown phase but not during the accumulation phase.

[uniwelder]

So, who's trolling whom, here?  lol  Not sure what the point of posting an old quote was, but that's still accurate, although I've increased that estimate of that scenario a little due to high inflation since then.  And also note, that particular quoted figure excludes all discretionary spending and assumes I don't relocate, which is why it specifically says "staying in my home".  Relocating is quite likely and will increase base expenses.  And that has no bearing on the limitation of the poll selections that I was pointing out, along with some others here.

Please help me understand-- I mean this sincerely--- not a sarcastic comment.  You currently spend very little and live a frugal life--- something like 14-22k/year.  When you retire, you expected to fatFIRE at around 50k or so if you stayed at your current house, but now considering inflation and moving, you expect that to be around 90k.  Quite the jump in lifestyle, isn't it?  Do you feel like you're currently missing out on life and retirement is your chance to go wild?

Regarding the poll's limitations--- Sure, its limited, but the OP specifically said they were interested in learning about people whose spending is at the low end of the scale, though is now realizing with kids, # of people in a household, etc, its not a great reflection on real spending habits.  I take no side either way in that.  I did take issue with people that felt this forum shouldn't strive for mustachian ideals. 

[bmjohnson35]

The poll is asking about planned annual spend per person.  It doesn't go into how you spend (frugal, extravagant, or somewhere in-between). It doesn't make sense to assume any one type of spender.  Being a participating poster on MMM doesn't require adherence to MMM "ideals". 

[amberfocus]

I'm still more interested in the people that manage to live on $10k or so per year.  Thats fascinating to me.

That would be me (and the SO). :) We're currently sitting at ~$16K household spending (with a freshly paid-off house), so $8K per person (no human kids). We can absolutely afford to spend more, but just haven't had the desire/occasion to yet. I don't include income taxes in that figure (although property and sales taxes are absolutely included), because our spending is literally below the poverty line, and the taxes owed on that sum would be negligible anyway. Our income taxes are primarily driven by the SO's job and any potential discretionary Roth conversions, rather than a need to generate sufficient cashflow to fund lifestyle choices.

Frugality-wise, we're much more akin to ERE levels, although we were closer to Pete's spending level before I retired due to the mortgage as well as the expenses associated with working. Stash-wise, we're closer to BH levels, but they would probably pity my poor deprived soul while simultaneously be horrified that I dared to retire already without running up an 8-figure net worth. Philosophically, I fit in better here, but I do still feel like a outlier when it comes to spending.

But it's still not as massive an outlier compared to the rest of the general population. As the SO remarked to me the other day when we were discussing finances, "It feels like the rest of the world is constantly gaslighting us." But we're just doing us. *shrug*

[wageslave23]

I'm still more interested in the people that manage to live on $10k or so per year.  Thats fascinating to me.

That would be me (and the SO). :) We're currently sitting at ~$16K household spending (with a freshly paid-off house), so $8K per person (no human kids). We can absolutely afford to spend more, but just haven't had the desire/occasion to yet. I don't include income taxes in that figure (although property and sales taxes are absolutely included), because our spending is literally below the poverty line, and the taxes owed on that sum would be negligible anyway. Our income taxes are primarily driven by the SO's job and any potential discretionary Roth conversions, rather than a need to generate sufficient cashflow to fund lifestyle choices.

Frugality-wise, we're much more akin to ERE levels, although we were closer to Pete's spending level before I retired due to the mortgage as well as the expenses associated with working. Stash-wise, we're closer to BH levels, but they would probably pity my poor deprived soul while simultaneously be horrified that I dared to retire already without running up an 8-figure net worth. Philosophically, I fit in better here, but I do still feel like a outlier when it comes to spending.

But it's still not as massive an outlier compared to the rest of the general population. As the SO remarked to me the other day when we were discussing finances, "It feels like the rest of the world is constantly gaslighting us." But we're just doing us. *shrug*

Thank you for the reply.  Can you give us an outline of what comprises the 16k?  I'd love to see the actual breakdown.

[wageslave23]

I'm usually complaining about the available options in these polls, but I'm shaking my head with the available options here.  Is it a joke?

I'm a very frugal single person with a paid off home in a LCOL area with an 80%+ savings rate in most recent years, and I'm estimating $90K/yr spending on average during the first 17 years of FIRE.  The highest option in the poll begins at only $31K.  There should be a few more tiers above that to make this poll more useful.

Some notes:  Kids are people, too.  And spending is spending, and that includes taxes, charity, mortgage payments, and other types of spending.

You're trolling hard, buddy.  First you say you are very frugal and live in a LCOL area.  And that your estimated spending is $90k.  Then later say that the $90k is with increased spending and moving to a HCOL area.   I'll correct your post for you: I am currently a very frugal person and live in a LCOL area.  When I FIRE, I plan on moving to a HCOL area and not being frugal anymore.  My expected spending will be $90k.

[Zikoris]

I'm still more interested in the people that manage to live on $10k or so per year.  Thats fascinating to me.

That would be me (and the SO). :) We're currently sitting at ~$16K household spending (with a freshly paid-off house), so $8K per person (no human kids). We can absolutely afford to spend more, but just haven't had the desire/occasion to yet. I don't include income taxes in that figure (although property and sales taxes are absolutely included), because our spending is literally below the poverty line, and the taxes owed on that sum would be negligible anyway. Our income taxes are primarily driven by the SO's job and any potential discretionary Roth conversions, rather than a need to generate sufficient cashflow to fund lifestyle choices.

Frugality-wise, we're much more akin to ERE levels, although we were closer to Pete's spending level before I retired due to the mortgage as well as the expenses associated with working. Stash-wise, we're closer to BH levels, but they would probably pity my poor deprived soul while simultaneously be horrified that I dared to retire already without running up an 8-figure net worth. Philosophically, I fit in better here, but I do still feel like a outlier when it comes to spending.

But it's still not as massive an outlier compared to the rest of the general population. As the SO remarked to me the other day when we were discussing finances, "It feels like the rest of the world is constantly gaslighting us." But we're just doing us. *shrug*

Thank you for the reply.  Can you give us an outline of what comprises the 16k?  I'd love to see the actual breakdown.

Not the person you replied to, but we're also sort of in that ballpark (24K spent last year, which did include rent, or 12K/person). Here's our breakdown:

$10,341 - Rent + insurance
$4,805 - Food
$2,517 - Health
$1,861 - Entertainment
$1,356 - Travel
$1,013 - Monthly bills
$917 - Cat stuff
$787 - Personal care
$430 - Misc shopping (clothes, shoes, kitchen stuff, etc)
$399 - Transportation

Total spent - $24,429

[wageslave23]

I'm still more interested in the people that manage to live on $10k or so per year.  Thats fascinating to me.

That would be me (and the SO). :) We're currently sitting at ~$16K household spending (with a freshly paid-off house), so $8K per person (no human kids). We can absolutely afford to spend more, but just haven't had the desire/occasion to yet. I don't include income taxes in that figure (although property and sales taxes are absolutely included), because our spending is literally below the poverty line, and the taxes owed on that sum would be negligible anyway. Our income taxes are primarily driven by the SO's job and any potential discretionary Roth conversions, rather than a need to generate sufficient cashflow to fund lifestyle choices.

Frugality-wise, we're much more akin to ERE levels, although we were closer to Pete's spending level before I retired due to the mortgage as well as the expenses associated with working. Stash-wise, we're closer to BH levels, but they would probably pity my poor deprived soul while simultaneously be horrified that I dared to retire already without running up an 8-figure net worth. Philosophically, I fit in better here, but I do still feel like a outlier when it comes to spending.

But it's still not as massive an outlier compared to the rest of the general population. As the SO remarked to me the other day when we were discussing finances, "It feels like the rest of the world is constantly gaslighting us." But we're just doing us. *shrug*

Thank you for the reply.  Can you give us an outline of what comprises the 16k?  I'd love to see the actual breakdown.

Not the person you replied to, but we're also sort of in that ballpark (24K spent last year, which did include rent, or 12K/person). Here's our breakdown:

$10,341 - Rent + insurance
$4,805 - Food
$2,517 - Health
$1,861 - Entertainment
$1,356 - Travel
$1,013 - Monthly bills
$917 - Cat stuff
$787 - Personal care
$430 - Misc shopping (clothes, shoes, kitchen stuff, etc)
$399 - Transportation

Total spent - $24,429

Thank you!  That's like budget porn! :)  And very helpful in helping us set up budgeting goals.  Obviously some of the things are not going to be applicable, but my take aways are:
1. that you spend about $200/mo per person on food, which is about what we spend.
2. your fun budget (entertainment and travel) is about $250/mo.  Ours is about $400/mo but $250 of that is towards travel because we are trying to do as much as we can before our first baby comes later this year.
3. personal care and misc spending is about $100/mo.  Ours is about $200.  I'd like to cut this down a bit.  But SO's spending is the majority of this and I need to pick my battles.
4. We can't touch your housing, transportation, and monthly bills.  But that has more to do with us choosing to live in the location we do and I'm ok with that trade off right now. 

[thesis]

Those voting options skew very low, but honestly, it feels good to be challenged a little. That's what this forum used to be about, before the number of FAT fire advocates started sharply increasing.

31k+ with rent. Single person, no kids. Including the cost of health insurance, I could live off $2k/month easily, so this could be lower, but my desires for travel, giving, and OEM car parts bring that up a bit. I would say $3k/month would be really cozy, and leaves lots of breathing room, even if I don't need that much every month. But I am reminded that I've been getting awfully lax in certain areas.

[uniwelder]

I'm usually complaining about the available options in these polls, but I'm shaking my head with the available options here.  Is it a joke?

I'm a very frugal single person with a paid off home in a LCOL area with an 80%+ savings rate in most recent years, and I'm estimating $90K/yr spending on average during the first 17 years of FIRE.  The highest option in the poll begins at only $31K.  There should be a few more tiers above that to make this poll more useful.

Some notes:  Kids are people, too.  And spending is spending, and that includes taxes, charity, mortgage payments, and other types of spending.

You're trolling hard, buddy.  First you say you are very frugal and live in a LCOL area.  And that your estimated spending is $90k.  Then later say that the $90k is with increased spending and moving to a HCOL area.   I'll correct your post for you: I am currently a very frugal person and live in a LCOL area.  When I FIRE, I plan on moving to a HCOL area and not being frugal anymore.  My expected spending will be $90k.

To be fair, genX never said current spending was 90k. Otherwise, yes.

[Glenstache]

What ever happened to just handing out facepunches for clownish money habits? In all seriousness, I think it is important to include categories at higher annual burn rates. There are a lot of people on this forum that I infer from their posts would have a 4% rate of  more than double the upper range above. It also isn't about a race to the bottom for the sake of frugality. It is to make sure that you are not *wasting* your money and the time it takes to earn it.

The assumptions in this poll about income and frugality levels are so interesting. I think there is a much bigger range of spending represented by people here. The poll ignores fatFIRE or chubbyFIRE. Not everyone thinks maximum frugality leads to the most satisfying life. And some people ended up in careers where they made buckets of money so they stuck it out long enough to retire (still early) very comfortably. FIRE is about figuring out our own balance of how long to work and how much the lifestyle we want costs. It could reasonably include spending levels way off this poll’s suggested upper range.

There's all sorts of ways to do FIRE, but this is the MMM forums, so it shouldn't be surprising when this pushback occurs.  The most basic idea of the MMM philosophy is for life habits centered around 1) anti- consumerism, 2) pro- environmentalism, 3) pro- DIY, 4) pro- healthy living, and 5) pro- saving/investing.  The outcome when following that leads to the ability to FIRE.  Have either of you read the blog postings?  If yes, then do you disagree with the general MMM message?

Almost all of the postings (especially as I got started in earnest circa 2013). I don't disagree with the general MMM message.
My monthly housing expenses total to about the top bracket in the poll. This is for a starter home in a HCOL area. I could easily pay down the principal to reduce that monthly cost, but my mortgage has a stupid low rate so I prefer a higher monthly and instead shovel that money into other investments. (ie, your standard leveraged strategy). Add other monthly expenses and you quickly hit $40k/year. If I excluded housing costs, I would pretty easily fit into the poll options. I don't think Pete would have any problem with my level of DIY and efforts to help friends and neighbors with DIY to save them money and help them build those sills. I also bought an expensive mountain bike this year. This is an activity that gives me great joy and nicer bikes do actually make a difference for the stuff I like to ride. It is something I do with friends. I also keep my bikes a long time (relative to the spendypants *must have XYZ newest thingamajig) and ride them until truly worn out. This I don't see as anti-mustachian at all, but rather looking at multiple objectives and finding the sweet spot. I also have been working to use data driven approaches to prioritize ways to reduce my carbon/environmental footprint and "environmental" is literally a part of my formal job description at work.

I don't see a lowest budget as necessarily fulfilling the key MMM principles. What if a person gets to the lowest food budget through all highly processed foods with high environmental externalities? What if it is through driving a POS car that is a gross polluter, but cheap on an annual basis? Or choosing natural gas over electrical heat (assuming clean source of power for the electric) simply because it has a lower monthly cost? I tend to be wary of expressions of a low budget being the gold star when the holistic picture is more important when there are multiple objectives. I also tend to be wary of no true scotsman arguments, such as those implied above.

[uniwelder]

@Glenstache Point taken. My apologies.

[Metalcat]

What ever happened to just handing out facepunches for clownish money habits? In all seriousness, I think it is important to include categories at higher annual burn rates. There are a lot of people on this forum that I infer from their posts would have a 4% rate of  more than double the upper range above. It also isn't about a race to the bottom for the sake of frugality. It is to make sure that you are not *wasting* your money and the time it takes to earn it.

The assumptions in this poll about income and frugality levels are so interesting. I think there is a much bigger range of spending represented by people here. The poll ignores fatFIRE or chubbyFIRE. Not everyone thinks maximum frugality leads to the most satisfying life. And some people ended up in careers where they made buckets of money so they stuck it out long enough to retire (still early) very comfortably. FIRE is about figuring out our own balance of how long to work and how much the lifestyle we want costs. It could reasonably include spending levels way off this poll’s suggested upper range.

There's all sorts of ways to do FIRE, but this is the MMM forums, so it shouldn't be surprising when this pushback occurs.  The most basic idea of the MMM philosophy is for life habits centered around 1) anti- consumerism, 2) pro- environmentalism, 3) pro- DIY, 4) pro- healthy living, and 5) pro- saving/investing.  The outcome when following that leads to the ability to FIRE.  Have either of you read the blog postings?  If yes, then do you disagree with the general MMM message?

Almost all of the postings (especially as I got started in earnest circa 2013). I don't disagree with the general MMM message.
My monthly housing expenses total to about the top bracket in the poll. This is for a starter home in a HCOL area. I could easily pay down the principal to reduce that monthly cost, but my mortgage has a stupid low rate so I prefer a higher monthly and instead shovel that money into other investments. (ie, your standard leveraged strategy). Add other monthly expenses and you quickly hit $40k/year. If I excluded housing costs, I would pretty easily fit into the poll options. I don't think Pete would have any problem with my level of DIY and efforts to help friends and neighbors with DIY to save them money and help them build those sills. I also bought an expensive mountain bike this year. This is an activity that gives me great joy and nicer bikes do actually make a difference for the stuff I like to ride. It is something I do with friends. I also keep my bikes a long time (relative to the spendypants *must have XYZ newest thingamajig) and ride them until truly worn out. This I don't see as anti-mustachian at all, but rather looking at multiple objectives and finding the sweet spot. I also have been working to use data driven approaches to prioritize ways to reduce my carbon/environmental footprint and "environmental" is literally a part of my formal job description at work.

I don't see a lowest budget as necessarily fulfilling the key MMM principles. What if a person gets to the lowest food budget through all highly processed foods with high environmental externalities? What if it is through driving a POS car that is a gross polluter, but cheap on an annual basis? Or choosing natural gas over electrical heat (assuming clean source of power for the electric) simply because it has a lower monthly cost? I tend to be wary of expressions of a low budget being the gold star when the holistic picture is more important when there are multiple objectives. I also tend to be wary of no true scotsman arguments, such as those implied above.

Pete also never claimed to be ultra frugal, nor is his lifestyle ultra frugal, especially these days where he does a lot of business spending, which has inflated his lifestyle without costing him anything out of pocket.
[Note, that's not a criticism from me, I think it's brilliant]

Point being, even Pete was never an ERE type. He was all about questioning your spending and not making shitty trades of your precious time for the sake of consumption that you don't really need to be happy.

DH and I can cut our spending down dramatically, but experience has taught us that that's not where our ideal life is. We have a balance of doing work that we love and spending in a way that aligns with our values, to produce a rich and luxurious life that costs much less than we can afford to spend.

Which is EXACTLY what Pete did and continues to do.

Now, that's not to say that the forum hasn't gone soft. It's gone ridiculously, absurdly soft. I used to feel like an indulgent over spender here based on some of the luxuries I'm willing to spend on, but these days I feel like a penny pinching bag lady compared to the norm.

And that is a loss. I personally feel the loss that this place no longer challenges me to question my own priorities, challenge whether or not what I think is my ideal life is really what I need to be happy.

I do miss that force always pushing me to think critically, always making me just a bit self conscious about what I spend on, and forcing me to really defend if I felt something truly was worth the cost.

This place doesn't do that anymore, but complaining about that isn't going to change it back either.

[American GenX]

Please help me understand-- I mean this sincerely--- not a sarcastic comment.  You currently spend very little and live a frugal life--- something like 14-22k/year.  When you retire, you expected to fatFIRE at around 50k or so if you stayed at your current house, but now considering inflation and moving, you expect that to be around 90k.  Quite the jump in lifestyle, isn't it?  Do you feel like you're currently missing out on life and retirement is your chance to go wild?

I hate to derail the thread but I'll answer your sincere question.

$14,670 actual spent in 2020, including discretionary spending, but excluding taxes.
The $22K figure was estimated FIRE bare bones spending including sinking funds for longer term expenses averaged out, living in my existing home, but excluding discretionary spending.
The $50K + 50% more that I mentioned in the earlier quoted post that my stache could support at that time was $75K/yr.
Since then, delaying FIRE another year, additional growth in my stache, additional contributions to my stache, and including a received inheritance, my total stache will now support $90K/yr.  That would include all spending including taxes and large expenses/purchases averaged out over time.  This makes it more affordable to relocate but isn't dependent upon it.

Quite the jump in lifestyle, isn't it?  Do you feel like you're currently missing out on life and retirement is your chance to go wild?

While the $14.6K and $22K figures are based on actual 2020 spending and expected bare bones expenses for FIRE in my current home, the $75K and $90K figures are a function of the math of what my stache will provide for spending rather than wanting to go wild, but I certainly expect more discretionary spending needs just with all the extra free time I'll have, especially compared to how restrictive I've been in recent years (although I did splurge and finally bought a $1500 e-bike this year).  Relocating would be an additional expense that would offset how much is available for discretionary spending.  So either way, $90K/yr spending would be averaged out.  After taxes and significant home repairs/improvements that I've put off, and all bare bones expenses, and excluding inheritance from the calculation, that will only leave about $50K/yr for discretionary spending, maybe less depending on relocating.  I'm reserving the inheritance for possible house selling and buying at this time.  $50K/yr discretionary still feels like fat fire to me since it's close to 20X my current discretionary spending, but I've seen people on this site talk about $30K/yr travel budgets and even $20K on a single trip!  So $50K over a whole year doesn't seem too crazy.  The inheritance would only boost that about $4K/yr if not spent on housing changes.

So, yes, it's a big jump in discretionary spending from my current working lifestyle because the math will require it to spend down my stache.  I don't expect my inherent frugal nature to suddenly change, though, so it might be difficult for me to suddenly spend that much when I FIRE, but I'll have to work my way through that.