Good time to buy a VW?

[phwadsworth]

with the scandal at Volkswagen I think that their cars' values may take a hit.  Could it be a good time to get a (new or used) VW on sale?

[AZDude]

Maybe, but remember that the "fix" for the cars will cause performance issues. Also, reselling it might be an issue for a couple of years.

[Retired To Win]

with the scandal at Volkswagen I think that their cars' values may take a hit.  Could it be a good time to get a (new or used) VW on sale?

That's an interesting possibility.  It would be like buying a stock on a price dip when there's bad market news.  Which I do often.

If you can let us know of any numbers data you gather, it would be great.

[2ndTimer]

I have also thought about this.  Have no need of another car since we plan to live an die with our Civics but will be curious to see.  Specifically, I wonder if a recent used VW might be a tremendous deal.

[bobechs]

Not a 100% analogy, but remember what happened with the reformulated Coca-Cola marketing "fiasco" several years back.

Sold more Coke than ever before.  Then sold even more than that.

[Jack]

Maybe, but remember that the "fix" for the cars will cause performance issues.

There do exist guys who could "fix" the "fix" -- they could make the car run even better than new, as long as you don't have to pass yearly emissions testing...

[Eric]

See here for similar discussion:

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/arewill-vws-become-good-deals-for-mustachians/

[Jeddy]

For the prices of parts on those things, they would have to be almost free before I found them to be worthwhile, scandal or not.

[FIRE me]

with the scandal at Volkswagen I think that their cars' values may take a hit.  Could it be a good time to get a (new or used) VW on sale?

I think VW corporate is offering 1 or 2k off (sorry, don't recall the exact amount) in loyalty for trade ins at dealers.

As for used I doubt it. For the used car price to drop, a lot of VW owners would have to want to sell NOW. Not really likely to happen.

If anything it could be the reverse. The recall fix will be optional to most owners in most jurisdictions. So a certain percentage of owners will refuse the recall and hold on to their better performing (pep and fuel mileage) vehicles.

[FIRE me]

For the prices of parts on those things, they would have to be almost free before I found them to be worthwhile, scandal or not.

I'll second that. A co-worker drives a VW, and he was telling me of horrifically high parts prices from the dealer. So he said it made more sense to just buy a brand new VW instead.

[thd7t]

Isn't VW currently not allowed to sell their diesels new in US?  That will change, but for now, I think it's the case.

[Scandium]

For the prices of parts on those things, they would have to be almost free before I found them to be worthwhile, scandal or not.

With the frequent, finicky repairs and expensive parts I don't think there is ever a good time to buy a VW. If they drop 30% now that just brings them down to slightly overpriced over a Japanese car. I'm glad we just unloaded our (non-TDI) golf. All Asian cars from here on out!

[Jack]

A Public Service Announcement for German car owners in general, and Diesel VW owners in particular:

STAY THE HELL AWAY FROM THE DEALER! Use an independent mechanic (for things you can't DIY) instead, and buy [not-made-in-China] parts from reputable third-party vendors.

[Jeremy E.]

People keep talking about diesels, but they make gas powered and electric cars too, I wonder if the price of a gas powered golf will dorp significantly as well?

[use2betrix]

People talk about their diesels because they are such great cars. However, now that's pretty apparent it was because they don't meet emission requirements lol.

[Scandium]

People talk about their diesels because they are such great cars. However, now that's pretty apparent it was because they don't meet emission requirements lol.

"The mileage is great, and the only tradeoff is a few kids with asthma. Totally worth it!"

[zephyr911]

People keep talking about diesels, but they make gas powered and electric cars too, I wonder if the price of a gas powered golf will dorp significantly as well?

Used prices on non-diesels should be unaffected unless this actually destroys the company, which could increase maintenance costs (unlikely).
New gas/electric cars are unlikely to get cheaper because the company is looking at a hideously expensive recall, and will need all the cash it can get.

My $.02: I wouldn't touch anything with the VW name on it with a ten-foot pole right now, because the situation is too complicated to accurately assess all the risks. The cars aren't going to become collector's items so they're still just high-maintenance depreciation centers. There's no telling if the stock is adequately discounted, even after getting smashed on the initial news, because the penalties have not been fully figured.

To me, the only bright spot in any of this is the possibility that their promising EV offerings, with a few good models and supposed plans for dozens more, will be propelled to center stage in the efficiency effort. But that's not an investment opportunity per se, just a subject of personal interest.

[MoonShadow]

Maybe, but remember that the "fix" for the cars will cause performance issues. Also, reselling it might be an issue for a couple of years.

Not for those of us who live in states that don't impose emissions testing.  And why would you sell it?

[zephyr911]

Maybe, but remember that the "fix" for the cars will cause performance issues. Also, reselling it might be an issue for a couple of years.

Not for those of us who live in states that don't impose emissions testing.  And why would you sell it?

I realize not everyone here is into greater-good issues, but the reason these cars are now unsaleable is because what they do is very bad for the human race.
We would all be better off if every one that can't or won't be brought up to standard is taken back and recycled.

[Jack]

I realize not everyone here is into greater-good issues, but the reason these cars are now unsaleable is because what they do is very bad for the human race.

Bullshit. They're slightly worse than we thought they were, but they're still a fuck-ton better than the vast majority of cars on the road, including gasoline ones.

[zephyr911]

I realize not everyone here is into greater-good issues, but the reason these cars are now unsaleable is because what they do is very bad for the human race.

Bullshit. They're slightly worse than we thought they were, but they're still a fuck-ton better than the vast majority of cars on the road, including gasoline ones.

No need to get mad. From what I've read, the levels are dramatically higher (30-40x) than the expected value for some pollutants. Am I wrong?

[Jack]

I realize not everyone here is into greater-good issues, but the reason these cars are now unsaleable is because what they do is very bad for the human race.

Bullshit. They're slightly worse than we thought they were, but they're still a fuck-ton better than the vast majority of cars on the road, including gasoline ones.

No need to get mad. From what I've read, the levels are dramatically higher (30-40x) than the expected value for some pollutants. Am I wrong?

You're not wrong in that the NOx levels are 40x higher; you're wrong in equating "40x higher" with "very bad for the human race." I got mad because your conclusion is hyperbolic, hysterical, and not just wrong but offensively so.

First of all, a very small number multiplied by 40 is still a pretty small number! Diesels have a hard time meeting the EPA's NOx guidelines at least in part because the guidelines themselves are ridiculously draconian.

Second, you have to consider what the trade-off is. In this case, VW's diesels produce more NOx because they operate at higher combustion temperatures, which is more thermodynamically efficient and enables the high MPG, low CO2 emissions and other environmental benefits. By pretty much every measure other than NOx, they're better for the environment than almost all other cars (possibly including even hybrids and EVs, once you factor in battery production and disposal).

[AZDude]

Jack must be from Beijing if he thinks US EPA regulations are draconian. Maybe a climate-change denier and secret republican donor?

[zephyr911]

You're not wrong in that the NOx levels are 40x higher; you're wrong in equating "40x higher" with "very bad for the human race." I got mad because your conclusion is hyperbolic, hysterical, and not just wrong but offensively so.

Lulz... hysterical indeed. Sorry dude.

[MoonShadow]

I realize not everyone here is into greater-good issues, but the reason these cars are now unsaleable is because what they do is very bad for the human race.

Bullshit. They're slightly worse than we thought they were, but they're still a fuck-ton better than the vast majority of cars on the road, including gasoline ones.

No need to get mad. From what I've read, the levels are dramatically higher (30-40x) than the expected value for some pollutants. Am I wrong?

Wrong, no.  Specifically, the turbo-diesels exceed the Nitrogen-oxide limits by about 35 times the legal limit, but that actually puts them pretty close to the average for high compression diesels that are not cars; such as stand alone generators, diesel-electric train engines, many over-the-road tractor trailer trucks, etc.  The NOx rules in question only apply to passenger vehicles.  NOx is a real air quality pollutant, so I'm not trying to make light of it, but it's not nearly as bad as it sounds.  NOx is suspected of being a major cause of 'acid rain'.  I say suspected because, while it's certainly part of the chemistry, NOx also has a known lifespan in open sunlight.  NOx is both created in natural ways, and destroyed in a natural way.  So it's much more likely that NOx is a local air quality pollutant moreso than a general threat to the environment.  It's also, quite literally, impossible to prevent an internal combustion engine from producing some of it.  NOx is a major component of smog, so it's a very real issue in urban areas prone to stagnant air.

[zephyr911]

Wrong, no.  Specifically, the turbo-diesels exceed the Nitrogen-oxide limits by about 35 times the legal limit, but that actually puts them pretty close to the average for high compression diesels that are not cars; such as stand alone generators, diesel-electric train engines, many over-the-road tractor trailer trucks, etc.  The NOx rules in question only apply to passenger vehicles.  NOx is a real air quality pollutant, so I'm not trying to make light of it, but it's not nearly as bad as it sounds.  NOx is suspected of being a major cause of 'acid rain'.  I say suspected because, while it's certainly part of the chemistry, NOx also has a known lifespan in open sunlight.  NOx is both created in natural ways, and destroyed in a natural way.  So it's much more likely that NOx is a local air quality pollutant moreso than a general threat to the environment.  It's also, quite literally, impossible to prevent an internal combustion engine from producing some of it.  NOx is a major component of smog, so it's a very real issue in urban areas prone to stagnant air.

That doesn't actually sound too bad, especially in Kentucky where there's room for it to dissipate. ;)

Really wasn't looking to start a fight, just thought the remark up there seemed a bit callous is all.

[MoonShadow]

Jack must be from Beijing if he thinks US EPA regulations are draconian.

Or, more likely, an engineer or physicist.  Whether or not you consider US EPA regs draconian or not, they aren't based upon realistic science.

[AZDude]

No, they are generally based on industry bribes and campaign donations.

[MoonShadow]

That doesn't actually sound too bad, especially in Kentucky where there's room for it to dissipate. ;)

Yes, exactly.  Also, lots of trees & sunlight around here.  NOx based 'acid rain' is no problem at all for nitrogen fixing plants, Such as the Kentucky Coffee tree, Mountain Mahogany, Black Locust and (by definition) every kind of clover, to turn into their own plant food.  And Washington State claims the title of "land of trees".  Anyone who has driven through Kentucky knows that we could rationally challenge that claim. 

Really wasn't looking to start a fight, just thought the remark up there seemed a bit callous is all.

I saw your initial statement to be irrational; so honestly, I understand his response.

[Jack]

Jack must be from Beijing if he thinks US EPA regulations are draconian.

Or, more likely, an engineer or physicist.  Whether or not you consider US EPA regs draconian or not, they aren't based upon realistic science.

Exactly. And yes, I am an engineer (but not a mechanical or automotive one).

That doesn't actually sound too bad, especially in Kentucky where there's room for it to dissipate. ;)

Yes, exactly.  Also, lots of trees & sunlight around here.  NOx based 'acid rain' is no problem at all for nitrogen fixing plants, Such as the Kentucky Coffee tree, Mountain Mahogany, Black Locust and (by definition) every kind of clover, to turn into their own plant food.  And Washington State claims the title of "land of trees".  Anyone who has driven through Kentucky knows that we could rationally challenge that claim. 

Actually, if I understand the chemistry correctly, NOx is worse in places with lots of trees. Plants release VOCs and VOCs and NOx react to produce ground-level ozone. Conversely, in VOC-limited areas, decreases in NOx can actually lead to increased ozone formation (I'm not totally sure why, but that's what the research says).

[MoonShadow]

Jack must be from Beijing if he thinks US EPA regulations are draconian.

Or, more likely, an engineer or physicist.  Whether or not you consider US EPA regs draconian or not, they aren't based upon realistic science.

Exactly. And yes, I am an engineer (but not a mechanical or automotive one).

That doesn't actually sound too bad, especially in Kentucky where there's room for it to dissipate. ;)

Yes, exactly.  Also, lots of trees & sunlight around here.  NOx based 'acid rain' is no problem at all for nitrogen fixing plants, Such as the Kentucky Coffee tree, Mountain Mahogany, Black Locust and (by definition) every kind of clover, to turn into their own plant food.  And Washington State claims the title of "land of trees".  Anyone who has driven through Kentucky knows that we could rationally challenge that claim. 

Actually, if I understand the chemistry correctly, NOx is worse in places with lots of trees. Plants release VOCs and VOCs and NOx react to produce ground-level ozone. Conversely, in VOC-limited areas, decreases in NOx can actually lead to increased ozone formation (I'm not totally sure why, but that's what the research says).

That's also mostly theory based upon the chemistry, but there isn't much evidence that these effects actually amount to much.  Nor is there much in the way of evidence that NOx actually contributes to asthmatic reactions.  If it has a smell of it's own, I sure wouldn't know what it is; but it's not a credible threat to humanity.

[music lover]

No, they are generally based on industry bribes and campaign donations.

That would only be the case if the demands from the vocal greenies were always based on real science instead of the misguided belief that the world can run on rainbows and pixie dust if we all just cared a little more.

[Eric]

People keep talking about diesels, but they make gas powered and electric cars too, I wonder if the price of a gas powered golf will dorp significantly as well?

Used prices on non-diesels should be unaffected unless this actually destroys the company, which could increase maintenance costs (unlikely).
New gas/electric cars are unlikely to get cheaper because the company is looking at a hideously expensive recall, and will need all the cash it can get.

My $.02: I wouldn't touch anything with the VW name on it with a ten-foot pole right now, because the situation is too complicated to accurately assess all the risks. The cars aren't going to become collector's items so they're still just high-maintenance depreciation centers. There's no telling if the stock is adequately discounted, even after getting smashed on the initial news, because the penalties have not been fully figured.

Your statements bolded above are in conflict.  If you wouldn't touch VW with a ten foot pole, doesn't that mean that there are others that feel the same way?  I think the conclusion that this will have no effect on non-diesels is a bit premature.

[AZDude]

No, they are generally based on industry bribes and campaign donations.

That would only be the case if the demands from the vocal greenies were always based on real science instead of the misguided belief that the world can run on rainbows and pixie dust if we all just cared a little more.

So urban smog and climate change are not problems in today's society?

[music lover]

No, they are generally based on industry bribes and campaign donations.

That would only be the case if the demands from the vocal greenies were always based on real science instead of the misguided belief that the world can run on rainbows and pixie dust if we all just cared a little more.

So urban smog and climate change are not problems in today's society?

Smog is a problem in some places. But, due to technological advances, vehicles today emit FAR less toxins than they did years ago. Other than banning driving, not much more can be done.

As to climate change?? The climate always changes and always will. However, the actual raw satellite data shows that the temperature hasn't changed in 18 years. So, I'm not going to worry about something that isn't even happening.

[AZDude]

Climate change denier... as I suspected. Ok. Carry on.

[music lover]

Climate change denier... as I suspected. Ok. Carry on.

Climate alarminst...as I suspected. Carry on.

[Jack]

First of all, FYI, I consider myself to be an environmentalist. And that's (part of the reason) why I own a Diesel! The apparent contradiction is resolved by the fact that I'm a rational environmentalist, not a knee-jerk dumbass. MOD NOTE: Forum Rule #1.

No, they are generally based on industry bribes and campaign donations.

That would only be the case if the demands from the vocal greenies were always based on real science instead of the misguided belief that the world can run on rainbows and pixie dust if we all just cared a little more.

So urban smog and climate change are not problems in today's society?

I'm not sure why this isn't quite getting through, so I'll write it in all caps:

IF YOU CARE ABOUT REDUCING CLIMATE CHANGE, YOU SHOULD LIKE DIESEL!

Because they are more thermodynamically efficient, Diesels emit less CO2 per mile and thus contribute less to global warming than equivalent gasoline-engine cars.

But that's not the best part: the best part is biodiesel. Unlike ethanol, which takes more energy to produce than it stores (except in Brazil, where it's made from sugar cane), biodiesel is actually a fuel that makes sense. It can even be produced from waste products, such as used frying oil and by-products from chicken processing. And it's carbon-neutral, which means that the CO2 produced when it's burned was previously CO2 in the very recent past, so there's no net increase in the atmosphere and it doesn't contribute to global warming at all. A car running on biodiesel is better for the planet than an EV charged by a coal-burning power plant.

And guess what? Except for these new "clean diesels" that got fucked up due to misguided regulation, every diesel engine made could run on biodiesel with few modifications, or even none. My '98 TDI, for example, required nothing more than replacing a few rubber hoses with hoses made of a different kind of rubber. We have a pre-existing fleet of green vehicles that require no finicky "flex-fuel" technology, no ridiculous "hydrogen economy" and no changes to infrastructure at all except pumping a slightly different chemical into the damn fuel station storage tanks!

Basically, Diesel is the vehicular equivalent of nuclear power: in actual reality it's a good thing, but "rainbow and pixie dust greenies" irrationally hate it.

[markbike528CBX]

......Washington State claims the title of "land of trees".  Anyone who has driven through Kentucky knows that we could rationally challenge that claim. 

Washington State is the "Evergreen State" despite the fact that ~ 35%+ has NO trees, and is typically not green.
http://www.kettlerange.org/steppeweb/

See location note under my username.

Kentucky's claim is accepted as valid.

[MoonShadow]

......Washington State claims the title of "land of trees".  Anyone who has driven through Kentucky knows that we could rationally challenge that claim. 

Washington State is the "Evergreen State" despite the fact that ~ 35%+ has NO trees, and is typically not green.
http://www.kettlerange.org/steppeweb/

See location note under my username.

I stand corrected.

Kentucky's claim is accepted as valid.

Thank you. I'm actually not certain that there is any outdoor location that a human being can stand and not see trees anywhere in the state of Kentucky.  Except, maybe, during a new moon.

[paddedhat]

For the prices of parts on those things, they would have to be almost free before I found them to be worthwhile, scandal or not.

I'll second that. A co-worker drives a VW, and he was telling me of horrifically high parts prices from the dealer. So he said it made more sense to just buy a brand new VW instead.

You will never regret NOT buying a VW product. They are over-engineered, underbuilt shit. My son owns a newer Golf GTI, and will end up dumping it before the extended warranty expires, since it's not worth the pain of the huge costs of repairs. He lives a few blocks from the dealer, and drives the car very little, yet it was in the shop several times this year for recalls and repairs.  My uncle has driven nothing but German cars for the last thirty years. He  bought a new TDI Jetta a few years back. So far he avoided the disastrous, and expensive,  transmission and fuel pumps failures common to the car, but he just dropped $3K on engine work.  I owned an early 2000s Passat, which was a Yugo quality POS that I dumped $4K in, as it was nearing the 100K mile mark. A lot of this figure was parts only, as I did a lot of the work myself.

Having owned Hondas since '87, I just smile as my family VW crowd whines. The kind of issues they deal with are nothing I have ever experienced with any Honda. Long after the typical VW owner gives up, since they can't stomach the next $3-4K repair, the typical Honda or Toyota owner is still humming along with reliable, inexpensive transportation.

[use2betrix]

For the prices of parts on those things, they would have to be almost free before I found them to be worthwhile, scandal or not.

I'll second that. A co-worker drives a VW, and he was telling me of horrifically high parts prices from the dealer. So he said it made more sense to just buy a brand new VW instead.

You will never regret NOT buying a VW product. They are over-engineered, underbuilt shit. My son owns a newer Golf GTI, and will end up dumping it before the extended warranty expires, since it's not worth the pain of the huge costs of repairs. He lives a few blocks from the dealer, and drives the car very little, yet it was in the shop several times this year for recalls and repairs.  My uncle has driven nothing but German cars for the last thirty years. He  bought a new TDI Jetta a few years back. So far he avoided the disastrous, and expensive,  transmission and fuel pumps failures common to the car, but he just dropped $3K on engine work.  I owned an early 2000s Passat, which was a Yugo quality POS that I dumped $4K in, as it was nearing the 100K mile mark. A lot of this figure was parts only, as I did a lot of the work myself.

Having owned Hondas since '87, I just smile as my family VW crowd whines. The kind of issues they deal with are nothing I have ever experienced with any Honda. Long after the typical VW owner gives up, since they can't stomach the next $3-4K repair, the typical Honda or Toyota owner is still humming along with reliable, inexpensive transportation.

Either you're exaggerating or it says a lot about your family... Makes zero sense, really.

[bacchi]

First of all, FYI, I consider myself to be an environmentalist. And that's (part of the reason) why I own a Diesel! The apparent contradiction is resolved by the fact that I'm a rational environmentalist, not a knee-jerk dumbass.

So urban smog and climate change are not problems in today's society?

[snip]

Because they are more thermodynamically efficient, Diesels emit less CO2 per mile and thus contribute less to global warming than equivalent gasoline-engine cars.

NoX is also a greenhouse gas and is far worse than the equivalent CO2 (>100x worse). This is why VW is being racked over the coals -- the lack of urea pushes it out the back.

But that's not the best part: the best part is biodiesel. Unlike ethanol, which takes more energy to produce than it stores (except in Brazil, where it's made from sugar cane), biodiesel is actually a fuel that makes sense. It can even be produced from waste products, such as used frying oil and by-products from chicken processing.

Yeah, biodiesel is very cool. We just need more stations that sell it.

http://biowillie.com/bw/

[big_slacker]

I don t get all the be hate here? My wife drives a 5 year old Tiguan with the ubiquitous 2.0 turbo and it's been reliable, basic maintenance type of machine. much improved over the old 1.8t in our Audi which was indeed worthy of scorn for its maintenance problems and expense.

Seems like any auto other than Honda and Toyota is always blasted here, it's almost comical.

[Monocle Money Mouth]

I thought I read somewhere that depending on how VW fixes the issue, it could dramatically reduce the life of the emissions system causing an expensive repair down the road. I would wait to see what VW's fix is and the implications are before buying any of their TDI cars used.

[paddedhat]

For the prices of parts on those things, they would have to be almost free before I found them to be worthwhile, scandal or not.

I'll second that. A co-worker drives a VW, and he was telling me of horrifically high parts prices from the dealer. So he said it made more sense to just buy a brand new VW instead.

You will never regret NOT buying a VW product. They are over-engineered, underbuilt shit. My son owns a newer Golf GTI, and will end up dumping it before the extended warranty expires, since it's not worth the pain of the huge costs of repairs. He lives a few blocks from the dealer, and drives the car very little, yet it was in the shop several times this year for recalls and repairs.  My uncle has driven nothing but German cars for the last thirty years. He  bought a new TDI Jetta a few years back. So far he avoided the disastrous, and expensive,  transmission and fuel pumps failures common to the car, but he just dropped $3K on engine work.  I owned an early 2000s Passat, which was a Yugo quality POS that I dumped $4K in, as it was nearing the 100K mile mark. A lot of this figure was parts only, as I did a lot of the work myself.

Having owned Hondas since '87, I just smile as my family VW crowd whines. The kind of issues they deal with are nothing I have ever experienced with any Honda. Long after the typical VW owner gives up, since they can't stomach the next $3-4K repair, the typical Honda or Toyota owner is still humming along with reliable, inexpensive transportation.

Either you're exaggerating or it says a lot about your family... Makes zero sense, really.

First of all, your are walking a really fucking fine line when it comes to personal attacks. I describe personal experiences with three VW products that I am intimately familiar with, and their owner's experiences, and you accuse me of exaggerating, or some how claim that it's a defect related to my family? WTF?

How about you? Ever pull the entire front end off a VW to change the damn timing belt, since it's the best way to do the job? Ever have a dual mass flywheel grenade, only to find out that a part, that typically lasts for the life of the car in NON-VW products, will run a few grand to replace? Ever seen what happen when the TDI high pressure fuel pump grenades and destroys the entire fuel system? Ever wonder why many VW automatic transmissions fail in less that 125K miles, and why?  Ever ask a VAG tech what they think of the DSG transmissions? Ever drive a vehicle that's such a POS that you keep a laptop loaded with proprietary VW scanning software, and spare ignition coil packs onboard, so you can diagnose and repair a constant failure point that prevents the car from even running properly?  Want to guess how many Honda or Toyota owners deal with that B.S?

You are right about one thing. And I quote............"makes zero sense, really". You are correct, it makes zero sense for you to question my integrity, or take a cheap shot at my family. Particularly when you haven't got even a shred of a clue as to what you are talking about. The other thing that makes "zero sense" is buying a POS VW product. It's a tough lesson to learn, but it's one of the reasons this forum exists, that being the chance to learn valuable lessons without going through the pain and expense of doing it on your own.

[Jack]

NoX is also a greenhouse gas and is far worse than the equivalent CO2 (>100x worse). This is why VW is being racked over the coals -- the lack of urea pushes it out the back.

You're mistaken. From Wikipedia:

NOx should not be confused with nitrous oxide (N2O), which is a greenhouse gas

NOx emissions also causes global cooling through the formation of OH groups that destroy methane molecules, countering the effect of greenhouse gases. The effect can be significant.

NOx produces harmful environmental effects, such as acid rain and ground-level ozone, but global warming is not among them.

[bacchi]

NoX is also a greenhouse gas and is far worse than the equivalent CO2 (>100x worse). This is why VW is being racked over the coals -- the lack of urea pushes it out the back.

You're mistaken. From Wikipedia:

NOx should not be confused with nitrous oxide (N2O), which is a greenhouse gas

NOx emissions also causes global cooling through the formation of OH groups that destroy methane molecules, countering the effect of greenhouse gases. The effect can be significant.

NOx produces harmful environmental effects, such as acid rain and ground-level ozone, but global warming is not among them.

Yep, my mistake. NOx isn't a direct greenhouse gas, true. However, it is considered an indirect greenhouse gas (by the IPCC, among others) because it causes the formation of O3 and also can form into N2O. From the wiki source,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOx#NO_from_N2O

Also, http://www.co2offsetresearch.org/aviation/IndirectEmissions.html

NOx emissions lead to an initial increase in ozone (net warming) followed by a longer-term decrease in methane (net cooling) and later a decrease of ozone (net cooling). However, the small decrease in ozone does not outweigh the larger initial increase in ozone. Therefore, overall changes in ozone concentration incur a warming effect whereas decreased methane has a cooling effect.

The article, like this study, do point out that NOx research is still advancing.

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00139300

For NOx emitted from surface sources, the effects through changes in O3 and CH4 are estimated to be of similar magnitude and large uncertainty is connected to the sign of the net effect.

In any case, given the uncertainty, diesel does seem a better choice for global warming than regular gas engines. If only the SOx and other particulates can be cleaned up better.

[Jack]

In any case, given the uncertainty, diesel does seem a better choice for global warming than regular gas engines. If only the SOx and other particulates can be cleaned up better.

FYI, biodiesel produces no SOx (because vegetable oil or animal fat does not have sulfur in it to begin with).

Also, since new Diesel engines are required to have particulate filters but new gasoline engines are not, Diesels now put out fewer particulates. This is especially true in comparison to GDI (gasoline direct injection) engines, which obtain their increased efficiency by basically being more Diesel-like (including in their emissions profile).

[Retired To Win]

A Public Service Announcement for German car owners in general, and Diesel VW owners in particular:

STAY THE HELL AWAY FROM THE DEALER! Use an independent mechanic (for things you can't DIY) instead, and buy [not-made-in-China] parts from reputable third-party vendors.

I don't think this just applies to European cars and their dealers.  In my experience, it applies to ALL new car dealer service departments.  I have never found a single car repair or maintenance task that a dealer would not price at a huge markup from what an independent mechanic shop would charge.