Do you pay for house cleaners?

[tipster350]

So, what is the age where we've decided that cleaning the house is too difficult a task to be done by yourself.  Asking for my 94 year old Polish grandmother.  (Who keeps an immaculate apartment, and would be disgusted at the suggestion of hiring someone to do it for her.)

This is hilarious. I wish I had a 94 year old grandmother around to judge me.
Nope, my older family is all dead. I'm sure they had wished they spent more time cleaning.

No fair, honeybbq, you made me snort! Best comment. You nailed it.

[mm1970]

So, what is the age where we've decided that cleaning the house is too difficult a task to be done by yourself.  Asking for my 94 year old Polish grandmother.  (Who keeps an immaculate apartment, and would be disgusted at the suggestion of hiring someone to do it for her.)

Are you missing the point made just above you, and by others, that - it depends?

Just like it depends on when you are able to live independently - or you need to rely on your children to come over and help every day.  Or you need to hire people to help you.  Or you need to go into an independent living retirement home.  Or you need 24/7 care in a home.

I know the occasional 90-something year old who is spry and able to care for themselves and their homes.  I know many who are/ were unable to walk further than 5 feet due to age or injury, etc.  I'm relatively sure that my father should NOT have been living alone before he died at almost-82, but the man was stubborn.

I'm also sure that my husband's grandparents shouldn't have been living independently as long as they did, as they completely relied on their DIL to clean their house, mow their lawn, and do all of their laundry.

Is your grandmother spry and fit?  Does she have a full time job?  I expect, at her age, things take ... longer.  But she probably has more time to do it also.  And can take a nap in the afternoon.  I've certainly seen with my coworkers, myself, my family members ... abilities, energy, etc - start to decline at around 40.  You just aren't going to get as much done in the same amount of time.  What is going to give? 

My stepfather is in his 70s and is recovering from a multi-year battle with cancer.  Is he allowed to hire someone to mow his several  acres?  Clean his house?

[Cranky]

So, I really do defend anyone's right to spend her money any way she wishes, never mind that this is a discussion board about frugality and stoicism and saving money and getting off the consumption wheel. Hire a cleaner! Buy a VitaMix! You do you! LOL

But I remain interested in why people even think paying someone to clean is necessary. If someone can clean your house in 4 hours every other week, isn't that about 20 minutes/day? You really don't have 20 minutes/day to run the vacuum?

I actually am retired now, and I don't feel like I spend some giant amount of time cleaning, because honestly, there's not that much to do. I'm old, and I agree that your energy level drops some, but actually - exercise is good for you! People pay for trainers and gyms!

[Bloop Bloop]

By the standards of the "anti-cleaner" people in this thread, any service that you hire out, ranging from gardening, to cleaning, to delivering (or preparing) food, to babysitting, to childcare, to tuition for your children, to taxi/Uber services, is "face punchable".

Would it not be easier to accept that not all 'short cuts' are somehow wasteful?

What is the purpose of a philosophy (MMM) which otherwise casts such judgment on people - particularly when the presumption in this thread is that those of us who hire cleaners can make a valid cost/benefit argument for doing so?

Even if it is a "rich-person decision", why is that a bad thing? Should we aspire to live third world lives in a first world country?

[former player]

Even if it is a "rich-person decision", why is that a bad thing? Should we aspire to live third world lives in a first world country?

You think it's "a third world life" to clean up after yourself?  Tell me, who cleaned up after you in the house you grew up in and were they living "a third world life"?

How about looking at it from the other point of view.  Why would you want to debase someone to live "a third world life" in your first world country - because that's what you are implying you are doing when you are employing someone to clean up after yourself.

I can't believe the arrogance and privilege behind the thought that cleaning up after yourself would make your life a "third world" one but that it's fine to employ someone else to live that third world life on your behalf.

[Cranky]

Well, I do take the occasional Uber because I don’t drive, but it’s actually quite a bit cheaper than running a second car.

I have never paid for gardening, childcare, or any of that other stuff. It’s not valuable to me.

[MaybeBabyMustache]

We have two boys, age 12 & 13. When we bought our house a few years ago, we decided not to have a cleaning person for a couple of reasons. One, our house was uncomfortably expensive (Bay area) & we wanted to build up a comfortable cushion. Two, it was clear our kids didn't understand fully the messes they were creating. So, we created a cleaning system for everyone in the house. Actually, scratch that. The kids & I clean the house. My husband maintains the yard, the pool & the cars, including washing the cars. It works out well. The kids quality of cleaning isn't exactly knock your socks off, but it has gotten better, and they are definitely more aware of their own general tidiness throughout the week. I don't mind the cleaning too terribly much. I do need to find time to deep clean. The kind of cleaning I can do on a weekend (combined with my daily pick up) isn't quite enough & I probably need 1-2 days/year where I spend a full 8 hours or something really doing a deep clean on the house.

No pets, as a benchmark.

[mm1970]

If someone can clean your house in 4 hours every other week, isn't that about 20 minutes/day? You really don't have 20 minutes/day to run the vacuum?

- it's not 20 minutes a day of running the vacuum (it's bending over to scrub bathtubs, toilets, floors.  It's moving the area rugs to mop the floors and let them dry.  It's removing everything from the stovetop to scrub the burners. etc.)
- No.  20 minutes a day would be 20 minutes less sleep.  Or 20 minutes less exercise.  Or 20 minutes of less reading.  Or 20 minutes less playing with my kids.

It's not "0 cleaning" vs "ALL THE CLEANING".  I've drawn my line in the middle.  Happily so. 

Just like we cook a lot from scratch, using fresh produce that doesn't come in plastic bags.  But still eat frozen pizza once/ week and buy bread.
Just like we get our oil changed at Jiffy Lube, and our tires replaced by professionals, but will swap out an electrical item or broken door handle ourselves.
Just like we do our own plumbing for water, but pay someone for gas and to replace the entire sewer line from the house to the street (which needed to be permitted).
Just like we wash & stain our own fence, wash and paint our own stucco walls, but will pay someone put in fake grass or to "terrace" the yard (which also requires a permit).
Just like we sew our own curtains, and hem/patch our own clothing, but don't actually MAKE our own clothing.
Just like we grow a few food items in our  yard, but buy the bulk of fresh items.

The assumptions that many people here have are that we don't "clean up after ourselves".  Of course we do.

As far as the whole "rich person" and "third world" convo going on ... here are my random thoughts:
- In many third world countries, rich people have people who serve them, and it's expected that you will hire someone.  I'm not going to even get into why (because I know only what I've been told, and I'm sure I'll get it wrong!)
- I see nothing debasing or wrong with any kind of hard work.  There's nothing wrong with cleaning houses for a living.  I have family members who have done that/ do that now.  Most of my family members are in blue collar jobs.  Working hard at a job is never something that you should be ashamed of.
- In a country like the USA, where you see an increasing gap between rich and poor (I mean, just read the news for crying out loud) - well, why shouldn't I spread the wealth?  I know we talk about UBI here, but in the absence of that - what is wrong with employing people?  Should I hoard...everything?  I mean, I happily used 5 years of child care with each kid, because I worked.  Many people I know are upset and shocked that childcare for an infant is $1500 a month or so (even more now)...but - you know, childcare providers are professionals and they need to make a living too.

[Metalcat]

Even if it is a "rich-person decision", why is that a bad thing? Should we aspire to live third world lives in a first world country?

You think it's "a third world life" to clean up after yourself?  Tell me, who cleaned up after you in the house you grew up in and were they living "a third world life"?

How about looking at it from the other point of view.  Why would you want to debase someone to live "a third world life" in your first world country - because that's what you are implying you are doing when you are employing someone to clean up after yourself.

I can't believe the arrogance and privilege behind the thought that cleaning up after yourself would make your life a "third world" one but that it's fine to employ someone else to live that third world life on your behalf.

Actually, housecleaner are pretty common in a lot of 3rd world countries...

[former player]

Even if it is a "rich-person decision", why is that a bad thing? Should we aspire to live third world lives in a first world country?

You think it's "a third world life" to clean up after yourself?  Tell me, who cleaned up after you in the house you grew up in and were they living "a third world life"?

How about looking at it from the other point of view.  Why would you want to debase someone to live "a third world life" in your first world country - because that's what you are implying you are doing when you are employing someone to clean up after yourself.

I can't believe the arrogance and privilege behind the thought that cleaning up after yourself would make your life a "third world" one but that it's fine to employ someone else to live that third world life on your behalf.

Actually, housecleaner are pretty common in a lot of 3rd world countries...

The point I was making was about the attitude of the poster towards the job of cleaning - that cleaning is "a third world job" and that cleaning up after yourself makes your life a third world one - not the job itself.

[GuitarStv]

Even if it is a "rich-person decision", why is that a bad thing? Should we aspire to live third world lives in a first world country?

You think it's "a third world life" to clean up after yourself?  Tell me, who cleaned up after you in the house you grew up in and were they living "a third world life"?

How about looking at it from the other point of view.  Why would you want to debase someone to live "a third world life" in your first world country - because that's what you are implying you are doing when you are employing someone to clean up after yourself.

I can't believe the arrogance and privilege behind the thought that cleaning up after yourself would make your life a "third world" one but that it's fine to employ someone else to live that third world life on your behalf.

Actually, housecleaner are pretty common in a lot of 3rd world countries...

Agreed.  Income disparity means that it's pretty cheap to buy servitude.

[former player]

Even if it is a "rich-person decision", why is that a bad thing? Should we aspire to live third world lives in a first world country?

You think it's "a third world life" to clean up after yourself?  Tell me, who cleaned up after you in the house you grew up in and were they living "a third world life"?

How about looking at it from the other point of view.  Why would you want to debase someone to live "a third world life" in your first world country - because that's what you are implying you are doing when you are employing someone to clean up after yourself.

I can't believe the arrogance and privilege behind the thought that cleaning up after yourself would make your life a "third world" one but that it's fine to employ someone else to live that third world life on your behalf.

Actually, housecleaner are pretty common in a lot of 3rd world countries...

Agreed.  Income disparity means that it's pretty cheap to buy servitude.

In America too, apparently.  Plenty of people on this forum happy to boast about the income disparity which makes their time so much more valuable than that of the people they pay to clean up after them.

[RFAAOATB]

I don’t know who said it, but the rich hire help, the middle class have no help, and the poor are the help.  Unfortunately the minimum wage is too high for me to hire much help at my current wage.  When global poverty is measured at $2 a day income, why can’t I hire a third country national at $10 a day?

[Imma]

But I remain interested in why people even think paying someone to clean is necessary. If someone can clean your house in 4 hours every other week, isn't that about 20 minutes/day? You really don't have 20 minutes/day to run the vacuum?

I actually am retired now, and I don't feel like I spend some giant amount of time cleaning, because honestly, there's not that much to do. I'm old, and I agree that your energy level drops some, but actually - exercise is good for you! People pay for trainers and gyms!

What annoys me a little bit on MMM sometimes is that there is very little understanding for people who are not able bodied, even though quite a few people with health issues have already replied to this thread. Yes, some exercise is good for most people with health issues, no, that doesn't mean that heavy exercise like vacuuming is a wise thing to do for everyone.

Maybe I'm slower because of my health, but keeping my small, kid and pet free place moderately clean and my clothing washed takes at least an hour a day, every single day. My cleaner used to do the heavy stuff like vacuuming and the bathroom.

I don't currently hire domestic help but I have in the past and likely will again in the future. I don't feel any more guilty about that than I do for hiring any other help (like a hairdresser or a construction person).

[Bloop Bloop]

Even if it is a "rich-person decision", why is that a bad thing? Should we aspire to live third world lives in a first world country?

You think it's "a third world life" to clean up after yourself?  Tell me, who cleaned up after you in the house you grew up in and were they living "a third world life"?

How about looking at it from the other point of view.  Why would you want to debase someone to live "a third world life" in your first world country - because that's what you are implying you are doing when you are employing someone to clean up after yourself.

I can't believe the arrogance and privilege behind the thought that cleaning up after yourself would make your life a "third world" one but that it's fine to employ someone else to live that third world life on your behalf.

Why is it arrogant or privileged for me to employ a cost-benefit analysis when it comes to my time?

If it takes a professional cleaner, say, 1.5 hours to do what I (as a non-professional cleaner who is somewhat clumsy and has creaky joints, or is tired after work) would require 2.5 hours to do, and if it only takes 1/4 of an hour of my work (after tax) to pay for the 1.5 hours of professional cleaners, why can't I do a cost-benefit analysis?

I've asked the question many times, without anyone responding:
- Do you churn your own butter?
- Do you ever use an automobile, instead of simply walking or jogging everywhere within say 2-3 miles?
- Do you pay for childcare or after school care?
- Do you use a mechanic?
- Do you use a plumber?

I think the vehemence of your reply simply shows that you have a chip on your shoulder about the concept of person A employing person B to perform an every-day service for person A. If you do, that's fine - but understand that your personal value system about what constitutes an "acceptable thing" to barter or exchange for does not extend to all others.

Sheesh!

If you'll excuse me, I have to take a call from my secretary! I know, it's awful isn't it, paying someone else to do something I could certainly do myself...

[former player]

Even if it is a "rich-person decision", why is that a bad thing? Should we aspire to live third world lives in a first world country?

You think it's "a third world life" to clean up after yourself?  Tell me, who cleaned up after you in the house you grew up in and were they living "a third world life"?

How about looking at it from the other point of view.  Why would you want to debase someone to live "a third world life" in your first world country - because that's what you are implying you are doing when you are employing someone to clean up after yourself.

I can't believe the arrogance and privilege behind the thought that cleaning up after yourself would make your life a "third world" one but that it's fine to employ someone else to live that third world life on your behalf.

Why is it arrogant or privileged for me to employ a cost-benefit analysis when it comes to my time?

If it takes a professional cleaner, say, 1.5 hours to do what I (as a non-professional cleaner who is somewhat clumsy and has creaky joints, or is tired after work) would require 2.5 hours to do, and if it only takes 1/4 of an hour of my work (after tax) to pay for the 1.5 hours of professional cleaners, why can't I do a cost-benefit analysis?

I've asked the question many times, without anyone responding:
- Do you churn your own butter?
- Do you ever use an automobile, instead of simply walking or jogging everywhere within say 2-3 miles?
- Do you pay for childcare or after school care?
- Do you use a mechanic?
- Do you use a plumber?

I think the vehemence of your reply simply shows that you have a chip on your shoulder about the concept of person A employing person B to perform an every-day service for person A. If you do, that's fine - but understand that your personal value system about what constitutes an "acceptable thing" to barter or exchange for does not extend to all others.

Sheesh!

If you'll excuse me, I have to take a call from my secretary! I know, it's awful isn't it, paying someone else to do something I could certainly do myself...

The point I was making was about your attitude towards the job of cleaning - that cleaning is "a third world job" and that cleaning up after yourself makes your life a third world one - not the job itself or employing someone to do it.

[Bloop Bloop]

I wasn't implying that a cleaner is a third world occupation. I was using "third world" as a rhetorical contrast to the person who called paying others for services a "rich-person decision". My point was not that if you don't pay others for services you must not be a first-world person, but that as first world residents we should not be pejoratively labelled as making "rich person decisions" just for simple outsourcing - as if anything that puts us in the realm of first world was a bad thing.

[Metalcat]

Even if it is a "rich-person decision", why is that a bad thing? Should we aspire to live third world lives in a first world country?

You think it's "a third world life" to clean up after yourself?  Tell me, who cleaned up after you in the house you grew up in and were they living "a third world life"?

How about looking at it from the other point of view.  Why would you want to debase someone to live "a third world life" in your first world country - because that's what you are implying you are doing when you are employing someone to clean up after yourself.

I can't believe the arrogance and privilege behind the thought that cleaning up after yourself would make your life a "third world" one but that it's fine to employ someone else to live that third world life on your behalf.

Actually, housecleaner are pretty common in a lot of 3rd world countries...

The point I was making was about the attitude of the poster towards the job of cleaning - that cleaning is "a third world job" and that cleaning up after yourself makes your life a third world one - not the job itself.

I was actually just making a joke.

[Cranky]

But I remain interested in why people even think paying someone to clean is necessary. If someone can clean your house in 4 hours every other week, isn't that about 20 minutes/day? You really don't have 20 minutes/day to run the vacuum?

I actually am retired now, and I don't feel like I spend some giant amount of time cleaning, because honestly, there's not that much to do. I'm old, and I agree that your energy level drops some, but actually - exercise is good for you! People pay for trainers and gyms!

What annoys me a little bit on MMM sometimes is that there is very little understanding for people who are not able bodied, even though quite a few people with health issues have already replied to this thread. Yes, some exercise is good for most people with health issues, no, that doesn't mean that heavy exercise like vacuuming is a wise thing to do for everyone.

Maybe I'm slower because of my health, but keeping my small, kid and pet free place moderately clean and my clothing washed takes at least an hour a day, every single day. My cleaner used to do the heavy stuff like vacuuming and the bathroom.

I don't currently hire domestic help but I have in the past and likely will again in the future. I don't feel any more guilty about that than I do for hiring any other help (like a hairdresser or a construction person).

How is vacuuming heavy work? That's confusing to me. Vacuuming is just like walking around.

I had my knee replaced last fall. They sawed out my knee and glued in a new one. It's major,  major surgery. A week later, I vacuumed the living room, because I was supposed to walk around every hour and bend my knees, and I might as well do that and get the cat fuzz off the floor at the same time.

Again, I don't care what other people spend their money on, but I'm continually interested in the idea that house cleaning is heavy work, or time consuming.

[Bloop Bloop]

Has this topic devolved to the point where we have people seriously questioning why some people find domestic tasks physically difficult, or why some people can't sweep the whole place in 20 minutes?

Anyone with a dodgy back (among other ailments) will tell you that vacuuming is painful because of the repetitive bending involved.

[Metalcat]

Has this topic devolved to the point where we have people seriously questioning why some people find domestic tasks physically difficult, or why some people can't sweep the whole place in 20 minutes?

Anyone with a dodgy back (among other ailments) will tell you that vacuuming is painful because of the repetitive bending involved.

You're still relatively new here, aren't you?
Yes, this is quite the norm here, you get used to it after awhile

[Imma]

But I remain interested in why people even think paying someone to clean is necessary. If someone can clean your house in 4 hours every other week, isn't that about 20 minutes/day? You really don't have 20 minutes/day to run the vacuum?

I actually am retired now, and I don't feel like I spend some giant amount of time cleaning, because honestly, there's not that much to do. I'm old, and I agree that your energy level drops some, but actually - exercise is good for you! People pay for trainers and gyms!

What annoys me a little bit on MMM sometimes is that there is very little understanding for people who are not able bodied, even though quite a few people with health issues have already replied to this thread. Yes, some exercise is good for most people with health issues, no, that doesn't mean that heavy exercise like vacuuming is a wise thing to do for everyone.

Maybe I'm slower because of my health, but keeping my small, kid and pet free place moderately clean and my clothing washed takes at least an hour a day, every single day. My cleaner used to do the heavy stuff like vacuuming and the bathroom.

I don't currently hire domestic help but I have in the past and likely will again in the future. I don't feel any more guilty about that than I do for hiring any other help (like a hairdresser or a construction person).

How is vacuuming heavy work? That's confusing to me. Vacuuming is just like walking around.

I had my knee replaced last fall. They sawed out my knee and glued in a new one. It's major,  major surgery. A week later, I vacuumed the living room, because I was supposed to walk around every hour and bend my knees, and I might as well do that and get the cat fuzz off the floor at the same time.

Again, I don't care what other people spend their money on, but I'm continually interested in the idea that house cleaning is heavy work, or time consuming.

Well, one major difference is for example that I don't usually drag a heavy vacuum cleaner around while on my leisurely walks :)

Without wanting to publish my entire medical history here, believe me, I wish it was physically easy for me, but it isn't. Other household activities that are physically heavy for me are things like scrubbing tiles, scrubbing floors, cleaning windows and activities that involve standing in the same spot for a longer period of time - like doing the dishes.

I also have a very old grandma who also still does most of her own housekeeping and funny enough we do household chores exactly the same way: we split up every single task in many mini tasks, like vacuuming around the dinner table or cleaning the cutlery, then rest and do another mini task. This works, if you are retired like my grandma, not if you work 40-60 hours a week like I do. I have a sit-down job so working is no problem. Right now my partner has a lot of spare time so he does most, but if he becomes busier in the future we'll need help again.

[jeroly]

It seems to me that the underlying principle of Mustachanism is that you should be willing to give up money in exchange for time. We have stashed away our dollars into investments so that we can leave our unsatisfying jobs early, and get options for how we can spend our time.

Some people can't fathom the idea of early retirement because they like their work so much, or because they don't value leisure time highly, or because they have been conditioned to think that there is no option other than to work until 65, or 70, or until they die at their desks.

I suspect that some of the vitriol we're seeing in this thread is related to a similar dichotomy.  My perspective is that hiring a housecleaner is very Mustachian for some, and very anti-Mustachian for others, depending on several factors.

If you immensely dislike the type of deep cleaning housework typically done by housecleaners, you may rationally decide to forego an earlier retirement in exchange for never having to do it.  (Some folks who have posted in the thread seem to not understand what things are typically done by housecleaners - unless you're paying for a super-high frequency of service, you're not getting away with not having to do dishes / laundry / pick up after yourself, but rather, the housecleaners will clean toilets, sinks, and showers/tubs, wash floors, vacuum, wipe down baseboards, and dust).  It really depends on one's individual utility function - just how much do you hate the cleaning?  Just how long would it take you to do that task?  If the cleaning that a pro can do in four hours would take me eight, then I'm essentially presented with a choice of paying the pro or working an extra day every other week.  So paying a housecleaner is to some degree a form of coast FIRE - I'm reducing my savings rate in exchange for reduced hours while ridding myself of a (slightly) part-time job I dislike. 

I can also look at it another way - if I want to optimize my savings rate and I can use those eight hours to earn more than I'm paying the cleaner, then NOT hiring a cleaner is really non-Mustachian!

However, if you associate colonialist attitudes with hiring a cleaner, or if you enjoy (or at least well tolerate) cleaning, or are determined to maximize your savings even if it means reducing leisure time now in exchange for the earliest retirement (and can't earn more at some other gig than you'd pay for the cleaner), then it's non-Mustachian for you.

[habanero]

You cold also make the cause that some extra leisure time now has a higher value than some leisure time in the futures. Gain a few hours every week now (and avoid doing something one dislikes) against retiring slightly later at some point in the future.

[Arbitrage]

It seems to me that the underlying principle of Mustachanism is that you should be willing to give up money in exchange for time. We have stashed away our dollars into investments so that we can leave our unsatisfying jobs early, and get options for how we can spend our time.

Some people can't fathom the idea of early retirement because they like their work so much, or because they don't value leisure time highly, or because they have been conditioned to think that there is no option other than to work until 65, or 70, or until they die at their desks.

I suspect that some of the vitriol we're seeing in this thread is related to a similar dichotomy.  My perspective is that hiring a housecleaner is very Mustachian for some, and very anti-Mustachian for others, depending on several factors.

If you immensely dislike the type of deep cleaning housework typically done by housecleaners, you may rationally decide to forego an earlier retirement in exchange for never having to do it.  (Some folks who have posted in the thread seem to not understand what things are typically done by housecleaners - unless you're paying for a super-high frequency of service, you're not getting away with not having to do dishes / laundry / pick up after yourself, but rather, the housecleaners will clean toilets, sinks, and showers/tubs, wash floors, vacuum, wipe down baseboards, and dust).  It really depends on one's individual utility function - just how much do you hate the cleaning?  Just how long would it take you to do that task?  If the cleaning that a pro can do in four hours would take me eight, then I'm essentially presented with a choice of paying the pro or working an extra day every other week.  So paying a housecleaner is to some degree a form of coast FIRE - I'm reducing my savings rate in exchange for reduced hours while ridding myself of a (slightly) part-time job I dislike. 

I can also look at it another way - if I want to optimize my savings rate and I can use those eight hours to earn more than I'm paying the cleaner, then NOT hiring a cleaner is really non-Mustachian!

However, if you associate colonialist attitudes with hiring a cleaner, or if you enjoy (or at least well tolerate) cleaning, or are determined to maximize your savings even if it means reducing leisure time now in exchange for the earliest retirement (and can't earn more at some other gig than you'd pay for the cleaner), then it's non-Mustachian for you.

One issue is that you're assuming MMM's philosophy is to retire as early as possible - and I don't think it is.  It's more about life optimization and badassity.  Hiring other people to do something you're perfectly capable of insourcing is not badassity (setting aside the small percentage of people who cannot do it physically), even if there are those who would take on side gigs that might pay more after using your true hourly rate (which I would again argue is a very small percentage of people). 

No judgments on whether or not hiring cleaners is wrong are coming from me.  If it's worth it for you, go for it.  I just think it's a big stretch to call it Mustachian. 

[TVRodriguez]

you should be willing to give up money in exchange for time. We have stashed away our dollars into investments so that we can leave our unsatisfying jobs early, and get options for how we can spend our time.

Some people like their work so much.

paying a housecleaner is to some degree a form of coast FIRE

I bolded what applies to me personally.

I'm more of the YMOYL philosophy and simple living rather than MMM philosophy and optimizing everything to work less.  I calculate what adds value to my life and where I'm willing to spend my life energy.  I enjoy my work, which adds value to my clients' lives, and I prefer my profession to housecleaning.  It's more valuable to me right now.  I'm on these boards b/c it's generally a good group, but I don't subscribe to groupthink here or anywhere.  I do enjoy line-drying clothes.  That is a nice meditative task for me, and I get to do it often, b/c a weekly housekeeper can only do so much.

I type this from my desk while my weekly housekeeper is doing her amazing and wonderful blessing of my home, to which she has had a key for 6 years.  I left her a check and a fresh pot of coffee ready to brew, which she appreciates (and which we share when I happen to be home on days she is there).  We have cooked for each other on other days.  As she and I tell each other regularly, "nos ayudamos"--we help each other. 

She is glad for the work and the respect that my family and I happily give her, and we are thrilled to come home to a sparkling clean house once each week.  My kids love her, and she babysits them sometimes.  I go out of my way to find extra work that I can pay her for.  She is proud of her work, and rightly so.  I've also happily found her 3 or 4 other families who need her work and who are respectful of her, helping her leave some situations with rude people who cared more about their toilets than about her.

I take no issue with anyone who feels differently than I do about paying for housecleaning, and I took a while to write this up b/c I don't see it as a big deal, but maybe it gives another perspective. 

Here's another take:  I have another high-earning friend who hires out as much as she can--she and her husband find it selfish to do everything DIY when there are many people in our community looking for this type of work.

[flipboard]

Anyone with a dodgy back (among other ailments) will tell you that vacuuming is painful because of the repetitive bending involved.

What kind of hoover are people using, that they have to bend?

[freya]

I thought the idea of Mustachianism was kind of the YMOYL message on steroids:  optimize spending to maximize happiness.  Hiring a housecleaner can make sense if you get good value for the money spent that adds to your life.  If I did it only to increase my TV watching time, then I would totally deserve a face punch.

I resisted hiring a housecleaner for many years, but finally broke down recently due to my job becoming increasingly demanding.  Yes, I CAN do all the household chores, but I was astounded at how fast and thorough the cleaner was.  Every hour of her work would take me at least 4 hours.   Not to mention that she does laundry for towels & linens.  I live in a sprawling Manhattan coop where the communal laundry room is down the block, so this is particularly appreciated.

The time freed up by the housecleaner has been going into efficient and cost-effective cooking - and my weekly grocery bill has now dropped by about the same amount that I've been paying the housecleaner!  My hydroponic gardening hobby is partly responsible for that too.  Plus, I now get to go out hiking or bike riding on those weekend days that I used to devote to cleaning.  So maybe I'm rationalizing, but for me the cleaner has been a very good and cost-effective trade.

[Cassie]

I have a bad back and neck so bought a roomba to sweep and I have The Mint to mop.  Housework involves a lot of bending/stooping which can be hard on people.  Some people suffer from fatigue from auto immune disorders. No one size fits all.  Each person’s situation is different. 

[hops]

Anyone with a dodgy back (among other ailments) will tell you that vacuuming is painful because of the repetitive bending involved.

What kind of hoover are people using, that they have to bend?

I frequently bend when using a Shark upright, with or without its various attachments. Vacuuming is the chore that aggravates my SI joints the most. (I have spondylitis, so those joints are often stiff and painful.) I'm very thorough and vacuum a lot more than just the floor with an upright, but on days I'm unusually busy or need to conserve energy -- or just can't move very well -- a steeply discounted Deebot comes in handy.

Something I think is overlooked sometimes by the robustly able-bodied in these discussions is that people who are disabled or partially disabled generally aren't sitting around looking for excuses to get out of dusting their mantel or running a mop. For many it's a very slow, emotionally fraught road to acceptance of their limitations. I know more than a few who'd rather live in messy homes and stop entertaining than seek out anyone's help, which is sad.

[mm1970]

Even if it is a "rich-person decision", why is that a bad thing? Should we aspire to live third world lives in a first world country?

You think it's "a third world life" to clean up after yourself?  Tell me, who cleaned up after you in the house you grew up in and were they living "a third world life"?

How about looking at it from the other point of view.  Why would you want to debase someone to live "a third world life" in your first world country - because that's what you are implying you are doing when you are employing someone to clean up after yourself.

I can't believe the arrogance and privilege behind the thought that cleaning up after yourself would make your life a "third world" one but that it's fine to employ someone else to live that third world life on your behalf.

Actually, housecleaner are pretty common in a lot of 3rd world countries...

Agreed.  Income disparity means that it's pretty cheap to buy servitude.

In America too, apparently.  Plenty of people on this forum happy to boast about the income disparity which makes their time so much more valuable than that of the people they pay to clean up after them.

Minimum wage here: $12/hour
Average income in my town: $18.12 an hour
Typical cost/ wage for a cleaning person:  $15-25 an hour
Typical cost/ wage for a babysitter: $15-20 an hour
Typical wage for a full time nanny (based on FB posts): $20-30 an hour

It's just math.

For the record, 15 years ago or so, I hired an experienced technician with 30 years of experience, and he was making a grand total of $1.50 an hour more than the typical cleaning  person. 

Wage disparities exist.
There is nothing wrong or shameful about working in service type industries. 
Is that where our disconnect is?  The assumption that people who hire cleaning people are looking down on them?
I assure you that's not the case. 

[GuitarStv]

Even if it is a "rich-person decision", why is that a bad thing? Should we aspire to live third world lives in a first world country?

You think it's "a third world life" to clean up after yourself?  Tell me, who cleaned up after you in the house you grew up in and were they living "a third world life"?

How about looking at it from the other point of view.  Why would you want to debase someone to live "a third world life" in your first world country - because that's what you are implying you are doing when you are employing someone to clean up after yourself.

I can't believe the arrogance and privilege behind the thought that cleaning up after yourself would make your life a "third world" one but that it's fine to employ someone else to live that third world life on your behalf.

Actually, housecleaner are pretty common in a lot of 3rd world countries...

Agreed.  Income disparity means that it's pretty cheap to buy servitude.

In America too, apparently.  Plenty of people on this forum happy to boast about the income disparity which makes their time so much more valuable than that of the people they pay to clean up after them.

Minimum wage here: $12/hour
Average income in my town: $18.12 an hour
Typical cost/ wage for a cleaning person:  $15-25 an hour
Typical cost/ wage for a babysitter: $15-20 an hour
Typical wage for a full time nanny (based on FB posts): $20-30 an hour

It's just math.

For the record, 15 years ago or so, I hired an experienced technician with 30 years of experience, and he was making a grand total of $1.50 an hour more than the typical cleaning  person. 

Wage disparities exist.
There is nothing wrong or shameful about working in service type industries. 
Is that where our disconnect is?  The assumption that people who hire cleaning people are looking down on them?
I assure you that's not the case.

The disconnect is that you're not combining tasks.  No need for a cleaner if you have a babysitter and a child.  :P

[Davnasty]

The disconnect is that you're not combining tasks.  No need for a cleaner if you have a babysitter and a child.  :P

And if you don't have a baby you can babysit for your neighbors. Get paid and get free labor. win/win

[GuitarStv]

The disconnect is that you're not combining tasks.  No need for a cleaner if you have a babysitter and a child.  :P

And if you don't have a baby you can babysit for your neighbors. Get paid and get free labor. win/win

A house cleaner that pays you is MMM approved.

[Imma]

I have a bad back and neck so bought a roomba to sweep and I have The Mint to mop.  Housework involves a lot of bending/stooping which can be hard on people.  Some people suffer from fatigue from auto immune disorders. No one size fits all.  Each person’s situation is different.

I am way too frugal for a roomba, so I guess I still belong here ;-) maybe in a few years. It would make life easier.

[Metalcat]

I have a bad back and neck so bought a roomba to sweep and I have The Mint to mop.  Housework involves a lot of bending/stooping which can be hard on people.  Some people suffer from fatigue from auto immune disorders. No one size fits all.  Each person’s situation is different.

I am way too frugal for a roomba, so I guess I still belong here ;-) maybe in a few years. It would make life easier.

I have an iLife instead of a Roomba, just over $200. I love it.

I am also part of the unfathomable club of people who have various injuries/illness that make vacuuming and other cleaning chores rather unpleasant/medically advised against.

[Bloop Bloop]

Someone upthread said that "hiring other people to do something you're perfectly capable of insourcing is not (MMM) badassity."

Is it not?

By this reasoning, starting a business which employs workers is not mustachian, since most people who employ workers are perfectly capable of doing that themselves. Likewise, seeing a mechanic instead of doing a simple oil change is not mustachian, since literally almost everyone is capable of learning how to do an oil change and service, albeit it requires a bit of elbow grease. Is it non-mustachian of me to say that the cost of an independent mechanic is less than the opportunity cost of the time that I would forego by doing it myself?

Taking the thread to its logical conclusion, any time you pay someone to do a service for you that is generally within most people's capabilities (like delivering a parcel), it's not Mustachian. I can't agree with that.

[BDWW]

Definitely pay for cleaners. Don't let people on this board question it, or next thing you know they'll be suggesting you dress yourself and wipe your own bottom. That's a job for the help. Who let these proles in here anyway?

[Bloop Bloop]

This is the MMM forum, not the Marxism 101 and Income Disparity Discussion forum. You may have come to the wrong place.

[Goldielocks]

The [service] cost... is less than the opportunity cost of the time that I would forego by doing it myself?

This is what many people tell themselves to justify an expense / service , etc., but on investigation that opportunity cost is not measured in dollars, (they aren't actually earning additional income) but rather in increased "life enjoyment".   In those situations, I do think that exchanging $$'s for "life enjoyment" is certainly not MMM... 

... especially if the person is still working and does not wholly enjoy their work... in this case, they are exchanging years of extra work for short term "life enjoyment" provided by the outsourcing of services.

--------------------
The point inferred by you and made others that paying for services or doing without for things that you can't reasonably do is certainly a reasonable MMM consistent approach.

[Bloop Bloop]

For people like me who are self-employed and have a steady source of work, the opportunity cost is literally measured in dollars.

You are right that for someone who is an employee, the opportunity cost is not measured directly in dollars - but it might be (if for example the time freed up is used to do extra work or professional development, which leads to a raise).

But generally speaking, I agree with you that the opportunity cost of anything is measured in "utility", whether that's dollars, time, increased enjoyment or decreased displeasure.

Are you suggesting that "exchanging $$ for life enjoyment" (or more broadly, exchanging $$ for utility) is not MMM?

Because this is what you do every time you buy something that is not strictly needed for survival. Like a coffee. Or anything other than the cheapest, name-brand bulk groceries and unappetising food.

"especially if the person is still working and does not wholly enjoy their work... in this case, they are exchanging years of extra work for short term "life enjoyment" provided by the outsourcing of services."
What if someone does not wholly enjoy their work, and does not wholly enjoy housecleaning, but 1 hour of work can pay for 10 hours of housecleaning? Are they not exchanging 1 hour of extra work for 10 hours' less displeasure later on?

Remember the concept of marginal utility. If Bob earns $100 an hour and house cleaning costs $15 an hour, the difference in marginal utility between $85 and $100 (for that hour) is likely to be less than the negative difference in utility between one hour's house-cleaning and one hour's leisure time.

And you can substitute house cleaning for - butter churning, gardening, servicing a car, doing one's own plumbing - still no one has responded to that element of the argument.

Of course, if Bob earns $15 an hour and house cleaning costs $15 an hour, you are right to say that Bob should probably just do his own house cleaning, if he's fit enough to do so. All things being equal, doing your own chores gives some element of control over your own environment and is a good habit, so there's extra utility gained from being self-sufficient. But I'd say the overall cost-benefit analysis depends on how much Bob earns, how cheap the house cleaning is, and how much Bob dislikes house-cleaning (if at all).

I suspect the real crux of a lot of people's aversion to paying for services is:
1. It can be a bad habit - pretty soon you're paying for chauffeur services or cooking, because you get lazy. I think this is a valid argument. But it is not intrinsic to the discussion - it only reflects a bad tendency of some people, much like lifestyle inflation doesn't always follow from a raise.
2. It relies on capitalist principles, and therefore detracts somewhat from MMM which is predicated on conscious frugality.

[Metalcat]

This is the MMM forum, not the Marxism 101 and Income Disparity Discussion forum. You may have come to the wrong place.

You're still new here, this is actually a totally normal direction for this thread to go in on this forum.

[Bloop Bloop]

This is the MMM forum, not the Marxism 101 and Income Disparity Discussion forum. You may have come to the wrong place.

You're still new here, this is actually a totally normal direction for this thread to go in on this forum.

Interesting, and unfortunate!

[former player]

This is the MMM forum, not the Marxism 101 and Income Disparity Discussion forum. You may have come to the wrong place.

You're still new here, this is actually a totally normal direction for this thread to go in on this forum.

Interesting, and unfortunate!

You could try contacting MMM himself to see what view he would take on this thread.  I'd be interested in the result.

[Metalcat]

This is the MMM forum, not the Marxism 101 and Income Disparity Discussion forum. You may have come to the wrong place.

You're still new here, this is actually a totally normal direction for this thread to go in on this forum.

Interesting, and unfortunate!

Not really...

Threads go off into all sorts of directions that involve discussion of greater societal impacts of our personal life decisions. 

Again, you're new here, so you haven't participated in the same few dozen thread topics that pop up in various forms over and over and over and over.

Do I agree with what everyone says, of course not, but I am happy they participate and keep things interesting.

You will get used to it.
Debates are repetitive, criticisms get very personal, if there's a thread about anything to do with spousal problems a large number of people will jump immediately to telling the OP to break up/get divorced, threads that go political are generally a lost cause, the word "strawman" probably appears in more posts than the word "money", and literally any spending can be simultaneously lauded and maligned with equal intensity, and there are a lot of inside jokes hidden in a lot of threads.

This place is what it is, and within the noise is some absolute brilliance and an astronomical amount of valuable knowledge and resource.

For me, the benefit of participating in a thread like this is not to defend my own position, but to voluntarily expose myself to the arguments around it, because I find it healthy to have my own spending justifications challenged regularly, or even better, to see my position supported in ways that give me pause by posters I regularly disagree with.

Nothing makes you question a position more than thinking "hell yeah!" to a response and then looking at the poster's name and reacting "what the fucking fuck?"

If the thread goes into larger and unexpected territories, all the better for contemplation.

I felt good about hiring my cleaner because she was a young woman starting her own business and charging a non-minimum wage rate.

However, I don't mind reflecting on why I make so much more than she does, why my time is valued so much higher, and if I'm fundamentally okay with that disparity...and why.

If you come here just to be right, you will burn out pretty quickly. You cannot win threads here, you cannot win debates, there will always be someone who is either too stubborn or willing to take the argument into whacky directions.

I've come to love it as a feature of this place instead of be frustrated by it, because at the end of the day, we're really just talking about the same damn few subjects over and over and over where the ultimate conclusion is: well, it depends on your personal decision.

So really, this place can either be ridiculous, entertaining, and regularly brilliant, or it can be sane and fucking dull.

So no, as a very active member here myself, I don't think it's unfortunate at all.

[Obviously for those watching closely, the whole point of my post was to write something long and tangential as a self referential joke to entertain myself because I'm really not all that concerned about what anyone thinks of this place and I'm finding it slow this morning and I don't feel like working yet ;) ]

[Goatee Joe]

Never, ever.  I employed one years ago, who proceed to steal from my house.  That was enough to motivate DW and I to just do it ourselves.  Definitely do not want a stranger traipsing thru our home again, sifting thru all our stuff for hidden treasure.  Besides, DIY is double benefit:  save tons of money and get free exercise.

[afox]

For people like me who are self-employed and have a steady source of work, the opportunity cost is literally measured in dollars.

You are right that for someone who is an employee, the opportunity cost is not measured directly in dollars - but it might be (if for example the time freed up is used to do extra work or professional development, which leads to a raise).

But generally speaking, I agree with you that the opportunity cost of anything is measured in "utility", whether that's dollars, time, increased enjoyment or decreased displeasure.

Are you suggesting that "exchanging $$ for life enjoyment" (or more broadly, exchanging $$ for utility) is not MMM?

Because this is what you do every time you buy something that is not strictly needed for survival. Like a coffee. Or anything other than the cheapest, name-brand bulk groceries and unappetising food.

"especially if the person is still working and does not wholly enjoy their work... in this case, they are exchanging years of extra work for short term "life enjoyment" provided by the outsourcing of services."
What if someone does not wholly enjoy their work, and does not wholly enjoy housecleaning, but 1 hour of work can pay for 10 hours of housecleaning? Are they not exchanging 1 hour of extra work for 10 hours' less displeasure later on?

Remember the concept of marginal utility. If Bob earns $100 an hour and house cleaning costs $15 an hour, the difference in marginal utility between $85 and $100 (for that hour) is likely to be less than the negative difference in utility between one hour's house-cleaning and one hour's leisure time.

Your math and example is extreme! $100 hr. equals around $210,000 per year, that would put Bob at the 97% income percentile in the US:
https://dqydj.com/income-percentile-calculator/
Also, Bob has a job that pays 210k per year that somehow is not salaried and he can work extra hours at $100 hour???  Also, Bob has this super high paying job in an area where house cleaners are only $15 an hour (hint, they aren't $15 an hour anywhere in the US according to this thread).  Also, the $100 an hour is pre-tax the payment to the house cleaner is post tax, a substantial portion of Bob's income is in a very high tax bracket. Also, the problem with recurring expenses like this is due to behavior they often recur till death. Ignoring the current expense, the added expense in retirement means substantially more money must be saved to maintain that level of spending post-retirement.

I have argued in this thread that house cleaners are not worth it solely based on math.  What it comes down to for most people is that time spent cleaning your own house takes more than that amount of time off of the amount of time you will spend working due to the taxes, opportunity cost, and increased spending in retirement. Philosophical reasons aside, this is reason enough for most mustachians to clean their own houses. 

[Arbitrage]

Someone upthread said that "hiring other people to do something you're perfectly capable of insourcing is not (MMM) badassity."

Is it not?

By this reasoning, starting a business which employs workers is not mustachian, since most people who employ workers are perfectly capable of doing that themselves. Likewise, seeing a mechanic instead of doing a simple oil change is not mustachian, since literally almost everyone is capable of learning how to do an oil change and service, albeit it requires a bit of elbow grease. Is it non-mustachian of me to say that the cost of an independent mechanic is less than the opportunity cost of the time that I would forego by doing it myself?

Taking the thread to its logical conclusion, any time you pay someone to do a service for you that is generally within most people's capabilities (like delivering a parcel), it's not Mustachian. I can't agree with that.

I don't agree with your various interpretations or extrapolations.  I could start pulling statements from MMM to support my stance, but I don't see the point in sanctifying MMM statements to prop up Mustachianism as some sort of religion with MMM as its deity.  I've said my piece and recognize there are different, valid viewpoints.  We're all on our own journey and will (hopefully) get there at our own pace, with our own set of values and priorities.  If hiring cleaners makes your journey better, more power to you.
:beer:

[marion10]

Don't care if it is mustachian or not- I have a house cleaner and plan to for the rest of my life if I possibly can. Right now we have a woman recommended to us by our old landlord.She does a great job. We do the dishes every day. Personal laundry (she does the sheets) and general picking up. I will mop, sweep or vacuum if an area gets dirty (ie. a spill). It is an indulgence- but a good use of my money for me.

[mm1970]

The disconnect is that you're not combining tasks.  No need for a cleaner if you have a babysitter and a child.  :P

Oh that brings back memories of my second kid...who would literally eat anything he found while crawling around on the floor.  He loved to make a run for under his brother's chair.