Do you pay for house cleaners?

[Bateaux]

We've not had a house clearer in over 20 years and that was briefly.   Maybe after FIRE we'll see if we want some help.

[GuitarStv]

Btw for those advocating mind over matter and just simply don't get upset - I'm genuinely curious, do you really not get upset about things?  Cars running you over while biking?  Your work/boss?  Politics?  etc.  Or is it just that cleaning doesn't upset you so you can't really empathize and don't see why it should upset others?  (FWIW, cleaning when I was single didn't bother me either.  It's the relationship factor that does.)

Sure I get upset.  Lots of stuff bothers me.  But I've found that mindfully changing my approach and view of things has reduced the amount that I get upset . . . which in turn has radically reduced discomfort in my life, far beyond anything else that I've ever tried.  I'm of the opinion that once your basic needs are met (food, water, shelter, health, love) the largest determinant of your own misery is you.

[Cromacster]

There's a lot of people huffy about hiring cleaners.  Maybe this will clear things up:

Sure, I would agree that someone hiring a cleaner isn't ERE.

That said, I think that under certain circumstances, someone can hire a cleaner and still call themselves mustachian (if it's really a select, well thought out purchase that matches their values, they aren't hiring out everything, are still saving scads, etc.)  But if you want to call it mustachian-lite instead, that's fine.  Just make sure that you loop in all non-discretionary spending such as on all other sacred cows into this category too (e.g. travel, homebrew hobbies, etc.).  Your mustachian definition will start to look a lot like my ERE definition and only Herbert Derp will be left, but fine enough.  We don't need to call out the retirement police to arbitrate.

**

Btw for those advocating mind over matter and just simply don't get upset - I'm genuinely curious, do you really not get upset about things?  Cars running you over while biking?  Your work/boss?  Politics?  etc.  Or is it just that cleaning doesn't upset you so you can't really empathize and don't see why it should upset others?  (FWIW, cleaning when I was single didn't bother me either.  It's the relationship factor that does.)

To add to what guitarsrv is trying to say is if you're not happy cleaning you're not going to be happy doing anything.

What is up with all of the assumptions in this thread?
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Assume

I get upset about stuff all the time.  I could be upset about cleaning my house, but my contempt isn't going to get my house clean.  Nor is being upset with my spouse if there is some friction between responsibilities in our household.  And I don't buy the "I'm just not good at it, or my spouse has higher standards".  If you truly know your spouse, you know what their standards are.  If having a house cleaner is the one rub that is keeping you and your spouse from separating, you probably should just go ahead and get it over with.  There's some quote along the lines of "Shared pain brings people together".  Crank the tunes and grab the 409.  Suffer with your spouse while you grow closer together.  Accomplish something.  It'll be better for a relationship than watching a movie together.

And no, I do not think house cleaners fall under the tenets of mustaschianism, extreme outliers excluded.  Financial freedom through badassity (says it right at the top of the page).  Badassity is not hiring a cleaner cause you work hard and want to enjoy your time not being at work.  MMM has always talked about insourcing.  Cooking, yardwork, remodeling etc etc.  If your not good at something, great!  Time to learn a new skill!  I would argue that cleaning and/or keeping things tidy is a mixture of habit and skill moreso than a chore.  Skills and habits take time and repitition.

Edit to add:
I'm not saying people shouldn't have house cleaners.  There are many days where I wish I was willing to fork over the money to have someone clean my house or do my laundry.  But I do not think it falls under being mustachian.  To your point, I and most people here do things everyday that fall under "not mustachian".  That doesn't mean we aren't part of the club here.  We all have different values and thats fine.

[SunnyDays]

Wow, well to be honest if I could find someone to clean my house for $15 an hour I would consider it. God, thats a rough life for the cleaner. Imagine too that this does not include travel time to the jobs and you cant work 8 hours a day due to travel and assuming this person is self employed so paying their own benefits out of that $15 an hour. You must live in a very LCOL area (a good thing) or this cleaner is just flat out desperate. I just checked again and it is around $50 an hour in my area (front range, CO) through a service, im sure I could find someone to clean under the table for $30ish an hour
 

Yes, it is a hard life, especially where wages are low.  Where I live, there are lots of cleaners who do it because they don't really have the skills to do anything else.  I have a relative who did cleaning for many years and now, in her late 70's, is paying the price physically.  Arthritis, bursitis and other muscle-skeletal issues.  Plus, there are no benefits, resulting in low income in old age.  So if you're getting cheap help, be sure to tip well, people.

[mm1970]

And no, I do not think house cleaners fall under the tenets of mustaschianism, extreme outliers excluded.  Financial freedom through badassity (says it right at the top of the page).  Badassity is not hiring a cleaner cause you work hard and want to enjoy your time not being at work.  MMM has always talked about insourcing.  Cooking, yardwork, remodeling etc etc.  If your not good at something, great!  Time to learn a new skill!  I would argue that cleaning and/or keeping things tidy is a mixture of habit and skill moreso than a chore.  Skills and habits take time and repitition.

But why is the line drawn there?

MMM doesn't grow his own food.  (Because buying food is "cheap enough").

MMM doesn't make his own clothing. (Because Costco is "cheap enough").

[afox]

Btw for those advocating mind over matter and just simply don't get upset - I'm genuinely curious, do you really not get upset about things?  Cars running you over while biking?  Your work/boss?  Politics?  etc.  Or is it just that cleaning doesn't upset you so you can't really empathize and don't see why it should upset others?  (FWIW, cleaning when I was single didn't bother me either.  It's the relationship factor that does.)

To add to what guitarsrv is trying to say is if you're not happy cleaning you're not going to be happy doing anything.

What is up with all of the assumptions in this thread?
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Assume

cars running over you does not equal cleaning your house.

if cleaning your house is causing you distress similar to cars running over you, your work/boss, donald trump, etc. then by all means pay to have your house cleaned! Definitely choose paying for cleaning over divorce, paying for cleaning will be cheaper!!!

[Cromacster]

And no, I do not think house cleaners fall under the tenets of mustaschianism, extreme outliers excluded.  Financial freedom through badassity (says it right at the top of the page).  Badassity is not hiring a cleaner cause you work hard and want to enjoy your time not being at work.  MMM has always talked about insourcing.  Cooking, yardwork, remodeling etc etc.  If your not good at something, great!  Time to learn a new skill!  I would argue that cleaning and/or keeping things tidy is a mixture of habit and skill moreso than a chore.  Skills and habits take time and repitition.

But why is the line drawn there?

MMM doesn't grow his own food.  (Because buying food is "cheap enough").

MMM doesn't make his own clothing. (Because Costco is "cheap enough").

Because MMM set the standard for what "Mustachianism" is.  That's why there is a line.

Outside of the dogma of the stache, sure, you could have a sweet savings rate and have a house cleaner.  You could probably even be considered frugal depending on how the rest of your life looks.

[tipster350]

To me, cleaning can fall perfectly under the definition of mustachianism. It is a service that I value, and am willing to work longer for.  We are encouraged to spend what we need to on what we value, and reduce/eliminate spending on the rest. Unlike buying lots of stuff that only provides an short-lived buzz to the consumer sucka, cleaning services provides a feeling of joy and relief for me that lasts every time I come home. I'm continually enjoying the clean and orderly environment. I am able to put my time to other, more important activities with a higher return on time investment. I can't do everything, especially not as a single person. I'm not in a race to be the most virtuous acetic in the US. I'm in a race to optimize my life for maximum joy, comfort, and security.

I agree with the theory that the judgment against cleaning vs. spending money for other things is probably rooted in puritanical beliefs.

Something else to consider is that Pete, and many here, are/were in their 20s and 30s. You will find out when you get older that you do not have the same energy you once had. You will need to make choices how to expend your finite energy. There is no shame in it.

[Cromacster]

To me, cleaning can fall perfectly under the definition of mustachianism. It is a service that I value, and am willing to work longer for.  We are encouraged to spend what we need to on what we value, and reduce/eliminate spending on the rest. Unlike buying lots of stuff that only provides an short-lived buzz to the consumer sucka, cleaning services provides a feeling of joy and relief for me that lasts every time I come home. I'm continually enjoying the clean and orderly environment. I am able to put my time to other, more important activities with a higher return on time investment. I can't do everything, especially not as a single person. I'm not in a race to be the most virtuous acetic in the US. I'm in a race to optimize my life for maximum joy, comfort, and security.

I agree with the theory that the judgment against cleaning vs. spending money for other things is probably rooted in puritanical beliefs.

Something else to consider is that Pete, and many here, are/were in their 20s and 30s. You will find out when you get older that you do not have the same energy you once had. You will need to make choices how to expend your finite energy. There is no shame in it.

I think this is actually where alot of people get Pete's message wrong.  Nowhere are you encouraged to spend.  I would argue the message is to look around for ways to better your life and the environment around you by not spending.

Age and fitness is also why Pete constantly brings up working out and eating healthy in the blog.  I know plenty of 60 and 70 year olds who run circles around me, but I realize health issues play a bigger factor and abilities tend to wane as they age.  But I do not think age, in and of itself, is an excuse.  (ETA Said from my spry age of 32, maybe I will eat these words when I'm 70)

Unlike buying lots of stuff that only provides an short-lived buzz to the consumer sucka, cleaning services provides a feeling of joy and relief for me that lasts every time I come home.

Until the house is dirty and it needs to be cleaned again....to get that sweet sweet buzz.

[Khaetra]

Something else to consider is that Pete, and many here, are/were in their 20s and 30s. You will find out when you get older that you do not have the same energy you once had. You will need to make choices how to expend your finite energy. There is no shame in it.

I agree 100%.  When I was younger (20's/30's) I could go through and clean in no time.  Now tasks take much longer and doing things like bending over to scrub the tub or floor do not give a good burn, that's for sure!  My house isn't spotless, but that's okay and as long as I can somewhat keep up with it all I will.  I do have a lawn guy, as that is one thing I can't (and don't) want to handle.

[Cromacster]

Something else to consider is that Pete, and many here, are/were in their 20s and 30s. You will find out when you get older that you do not have the same energy you once had. You will need to make choices how to expend your finite energy. There is no shame in it.

I agree 100%.  When I was younger (20's/30's) I could go through and clean in no time.  Now tasks take much longer and doing things like bending over to scrub the tub or floor do not give a good burn, that's for sure!  My house isn't spotless, but that's okay and as long as I can somewhat keep up with it all I will.  I do have a lawn guy, as that is one thing I can't (and don't) want to handle.

I would also argue that this could be detrimental to your health.  If it's too hard to bend over, the solution shouldn't be to stop bending over.  It should be, what do I need to do so that bending over not an issue and you now thrive while bending over.

I'm about to go off a pretty huge tangent so I'll just stop here.

[tipster350]

Something else to consider is that Pete, and many here, are/were in their 20s and 30s. You will find out when you get older that you do not have the same energy you once had. You will need to make choices how to expend your finite energy. There is no shame in it.

I agree 100%.  When I was younger (20's/30's) I could go through and clean in no time.  Now tasks take much longer and doing things like bending over to scrub the tub or floor do not give a good burn, that's for sure!  My house isn't spotless, but that's okay and as long as I can somewhat keep up with it all I will.  I do have a lawn guy, as that is one thing I can't (and don't) want to handle.

Yes, exactly. Like you, I find scrubbing the tub and floor are no longer benign activities done without a care. I also have a lawn guy.  I am holding it all together just fine, but there is a limit to how much I can do in a day. Gone are the days when I can go turbocharged through 16 hours worth of activity day in and day out. I can turbocharge through part of the day. My retirement plans include money for a house cleaner, as I want to be able to pay for it when I am older. I will do so without regret and without shame.

[tipster350]

"Age and fitness is also why Pete constantly brings up working out and eating healthy in the blog.  I know plenty of 60 and 70 year olds who run circles around me, but I realize health issues play a bigger factor and abilities tend to wane as they age.  But I do not think age, in and of itself, is an excuse.  (ETA Said from my spry age of 32, maybe I will eat these words when I'm 70"

You may or may not eat your words, but you will see peers with vastly different levels of energy and physical abilities. Exercise and self care can put the odds in as much of anyone's favor as possible, sure, and contribute to higher levels of energy. No argument there. But you will find that despite the self care, energy levels will not be what they are at 32, and also as you mentioned, health issues will be more common. And you will see peers start to make choices about where they are going to expend their energy because it's more limited than it was at 32.

I'm still gonna enjoy the buzz when the house cleaners come. I clean my own house now. But I've planned for a future with that service paid for. Can't wait. I am looking forward to the luxury of it.

[afox]

I have little philosophical objections to hiring cleaners IF its a good value. The exception is that I dont want my kids to see me hiring house cleaners. I dont want our kids to know how much money we have and I really do want them to clean up after themselves. For one thing they will have to in early adulthood and it will be easier if they have the training already. Maybe I should hire a cleaner now while kid is too young to understand...

In my area at least its not a good value and paying for bi-weekly cleaning would delay my retirement by approximately two years, more than one year due to the loss in savings and a little less than a year due to the added expenditure in retirement to pay for the cleaner. That just isnt worth it to me. $50 bi-weekly is a major expense. I can count the expenses I have that are over this amount annually on one hand (housing, health insurance, food, vacations, daycare).

Edit to add: I just got a groupon offer for 2 hours of house cleaning for $89, this is 50% off the normal rate! I think Im paying my plumber less than $50 an hour, I have hired out my lawn mowing for about $20 an hour. This is not a good value!

[Awesomeness]

I never have but I was a SAHM and thankfully a natural at home making, cleaning and organizing. 

I do love a clean house and I mostly live alone so I find it very simple and it’s partly how I keep active, adding the yard to that mix. 

I’ll consider it for when I’m older if I’m not longer able or don’t enjoy it. No doubt living in a dirty unkept house would not be good for my mental health. And I want to avoid injury.  I have a tendency to be a accident prone, sometimes I move too fast and bump my head, stub my foot or something. Just last week I busted my lip rushing to disconnect the power cord, it whipped back and popped me in the mouth.   

[tipster350]

I have little philosophical objections to hiring cleaners IF its a good value. The exception is that I dont want my kids to see me hiring house cleaners. I dont want our kids to know how much money we have and I really do want them to clean up after themselves. For one thing they will have to in early adulthood and it will be easier if they have the training already. Maybe I should hire a cleaner now while kid is too young to understand...

My ex grew up having a live-in maid. He used to get angry when we had to clean up after dinner and especially after having dinner parties. He expected the magic fairies to come and do all the cleanup, and when reality hit that we had no live-in cleaner (and I was not willing to fill that role myself), he would be really upset and complain continually while clearing dishes and loading them into the dishwasher.

Recently I had a house guest who, at the age of 35, did not know (and was resistant to learning) that you had to clean the lint out of the dryer filter after using the dryer. He didn't even know how to boil pasta. I discovered him filling a small pot up to the top with pasta, pouring a small amount of cold water in, and turning on the heat. At night he turned on every light in the house and didn't have a clue why I objected. His parents absolutely crippled him, and somehow he managed to get to 35 without learning any better. I was not surprised to learn that he had difficulty keeping a girlfriend.

[afox]

I have sooo many stories like this, funny but sad. And the thing is as soon as those kids can afford a cleaner thats where their money will go.
Now that I think of it, my toddler got his first broom and dustpan at one years old! What happened is he saw us sweeping and would always mess with the broom so we got him his own. That wouldnt have happened had I been spending $100 a month on cleaners...maybe he;ll grow up to be a janitor...

[Cromacster]

I have sooo many stories like this, funny but sad. And the thing is as soon as those kids can afford a cleaner thats where their money will go.
Now that I think of it, my toddler got his first broom and dustpan at one years old! What happened is he saw us sweeping and would always mess with the broom so we got him his own. That wouldnt have happened had I been spending $100 a month on cleaners...maybe he;ll grow up to be a Master of the Custodial Artsjanitor...

FTFY

[Cassie]

My kids were older and knew how to clean by the time I hired them.  I needed the time more than money at that point. St 65 I am cleaning again since not working.  If I get to old to do it I will hire it done.

[Imma]

Something else to consider is that Pete, and many here, are/were in their 20s and 30s. You will find out when you get older that you do not have the same energy you once had. You will need to make choices how to expend your finite energy. There is no shame in it.

I agree 100%.  When I was younger (20's/30's) I could go through and clean in no time.  Now tasks take much longer and doing things like bending over to scrub the tub or floor do not give a good burn, that's for sure!  My house isn't spotless, but that's okay and as long as I can somewhat keep up with it all I will.  I do have a lawn guy, as that is one thing I can't (and don't) want to handle.

Yes, exactly. Like you, I find scrubbing the tub and floor are no longer benign activities done without a care. I also have a lawn guy.  I am holding it all together just fine, but there is a limit to how much I can do in a day. Gone are the days when I can go turbocharged through 16 hours worth of activity day in and day out. I can turbocharge through part of the day. My retirement plans include money for a house cleaner, as I want to be able to pay for it when I am older. I will do so without regret and without shame.

I have a medical condition that limits my energy and especially certain very physical activities. I think many people on MMM overestimate the influence of their own lifestyle on their future health. Of course physical activity, eating healthily and limiting alcohol are good for you but they won't prevent (maybe delay) the aging process or pretty common conditions like rheumatoid arthritis or MS or anything like that. The chance of you getting a chronic condition is much higher than a healthy person thinks it is.

My partner is currently at home so does all the cleaning but when we were busy we were glad to hire someone for the heavy stuff like vacuuming, cleaning windows, scrubbing floors etc. I don't want to spend my limited physical activity energy on window cleaning.

I am surprised to see how little time you guys spend on cleaning. We live in a small place, have no kids or pets and an easy to clean house. We spend about an hour a day cleaning (excl grocery shopping, cooking and yardwork) and our place is usually "just good enough" and never perfectly clean.

[mm1970]

"Age and fitness is also why Pete constantly brings up working out and eating healthy in the blog.  I know plenty of 60 and 70 year olds who run circles around me, but I realize health issues play a bigger factor and abilities tend to wane as they age.  But I do not think age, in and of itself, is an excuse.  (ETA Said from my spry age of 32, maybe I will eat these words when I'm 70"

You may or may not eat your words, but you will see peers with vastly different levels of energy and physical abilities. Exercise and self care can put the odds in as much of anyone's favor as possible, sure, and contribute to higher levels of energy. No argument there. But you will find that despite the self care, energy levels will not be what they are at 32, and also as you mentioned, health issues will be more common. And you will see peers start to make choices about where they are going to expend their energy because it's more limited than it was at 32.

I'm still gonna enjoy the buzz when the house cleaners come. I clean my own house now. But I've planned for a future with that service paid for. Can't wait. I am looking forward to the luxury of it.

This is very true.  I can already tell that I have less energy than 10 years ago.  Additionally, I work with a LOT of people in their 60s and 70s.  Some of them are very very fit.  But it doesn't matter as much as you'd think.  Age, illness, means that it's MORE important that they pick and choose where there energy is going to go. 

I have little philosophical objections to hiring cleaners IF its a good value. The exception is that I dont want my kids to see me hiring house cleaners. I dont want our kids to know how much money we have and I really do want them to clean up after themselves. For one thing they will have to in early adulthood and it will be easier if they have the training already. Maybe I should hire a cleaner now while kid is too young to understand...

In my area at least its not a good value and paying for bi-weekly cleaning would delay my retirement by approximately two years, more than one year due to the loss in savings and a little less than a year due to the added expenditure in retirement to pay for the cleaner. That just isnt worth it to me. $50 bi-weekly is a major expense. I can count the expenses I have that are over this amount annually on one hand (housing, health insurance, food, vacations, daycare).

Edit to add: I just got a groupon offer for 2 hours of house cleaning for $89, this is 50% off the normal rate! I think Im paying my plumber less than $50 an hour, I have hired out my lawn mowing for about $20 an hour. This is not a good value!

Interesting.  Going rates here, $20/hr cleaning, $75-100/hr plumbing, yard work I have no idea. 

[six-car-habit]

Unlike buying lots of stuff that only provides an short-lived buzz to the consumer sucka, cleaning services provides a feeling of joy and relief for me that lasts every time I come home. I'm continually enjoying the clean and orderly environment.

 " Unlike buying lots of stuff that only provides an short-lived buzz to the consumer sucka, cleaning services provides a feeling of joy and relief for me that lasts every time I come home. I'm continually enjoying the clean and orderly environment "

  This above statement is a joke right ??
 How is this any different than a person buying a new music album every week, playing it in their home, providing beautiful sound and lyrics, than getting bored and the next week, buying a new album, rinse and repeat. Week 1 they love hearing the new guitar rifffs and learning the lyrics. Week 2 they want drum solos. Week 3 saxophone and a duet. At the end of 3 weeks they own 3 albums, which they can go back and enjoy any time.  They got enjoyment and a tangible physical item.  They could be considered a "consumer sucka" .
   *You got enjoyment/ short term buzz and no item.

 Every week or two, you are paying money to provide you the short term buzz of having a clean house, Joy and relief.  In another two weeks the house is dirty and dusty again, you feel anxiety or angst, so you pay for another visit and another cleaning.  It is not Continually providing you with a clean and orderly environment.  It has to be re-done, re-cleaned, and re-Paid for - all the time. 

[Bloop Bloop]

And no, I do not think house cleaners fall under the tenets of mustaschianism, extreme outliers excluded.  Financial freedom through badassity (says it right at the top of the page).  Badassity is not hiring a cleaner cause you work hard and want to enjoy your time not being at work.  MMM has always talked about insourcing.  Cooking, yardwork, remodeling etc etc.  If your not good at something, great!  Time to learn a new skill!  I would argue that cleaning and/or keeping things tidy is a mixture of habit and skill moreso than a chore.  Skills and habits take time and repitition.

But why is the line drawn there?

MMM doesn't grow his own food.  (Because buying food is "cheap enough").

MMM doesn't make his own clothing. (Because Costco is "cheap enough").

Some really ridiculous quotes in this thread.

"If you're not happy cleaning you won't be happy doing anything?"

You can replace cleaning with -

"Baking your own bread"

"Changing your own oil"

"Bicycling to work"

"Doing all your own plumbing"

"Hand-washing your own clothes" - it takes only 10 minutes a day if each family member chips in!

Any of the above can be done quite easily by most people with a modicum of effort - but not everyone chooses to do each of them. Most people have a few things that they "cheat" on.

The fact that some of you think you can tell others how to use their time, and how to change their time for money, is ridiculous. It's based on some sort of puritan work ethic which simply doesn't translate into the current society.

[Goldielocks]

Question: Why do so many people choose to date, marry, and procreate with filthy slobs? How could "Oh look, you didn't clean your bathtub for 5 years" not be a dealbreaker? Like, how does that not lead to an immediate "Give me a call when you learn to maintain basic standards of hygiene and adult living, and then we can talk about being in a relationship" conversation? Or do you just not care, and it doesn't bother you? Was there bait and switch going on? This aspect of the debate is always so confusing so me.

Oh, bait and switch for me, definitely.  I deliberately looked at his housekeeping standards before agreeing to marrying him.

Long before we were married (we did not live together first)... DH:
1) Had a job for 4+ months as a professional carpet cleaner and did a terrific, detailed, job at it.
2)  Vacuumed / tidied his room in his shared dorm / apartment to a level better than mine., more frequently than me.
3) Cooked (ok, heat and heat a lot of frozen) for himself.

Little did I realize
1) When you are paid to do something, you can do it well.  When you are tired, not so much
2) Housemates were disgusting.  Apparently his 100s.ft. of personal space was so clean in a response to the "gross out " wars going on in the kitchen that he was ignoring.  The common bathroom was cleaned by the dorm sanitation crew.
3)  Cooking was more heat and eat the frozen foods his mom was giving him..  LOL

[nirodha]

I've had a house keeper since my mid-20's, approaching 40 now. She visits every 4-6 weeks, when we get tired of ignoring the dirt. The cost is about $1000 a year, for a 1600 sq. ft. house.

It's a very affordable way to buy back time.

[expatartist]

My flat is also an art space and will host artists (some paying AirBnB style). A house cleaner will come by occasionally to let guests in while I'm away, clean up after them etc. About once or twice/week or before exhibitions. Her fees will be part of the running costs of my project space, paid for in part by what the visiting artists pay me.

[tipster350]

And no, I do not think house cleaners fall under the tenets of mustaschianism, extreme outliers excluded.  Financial freedom through badassity (says it right at the top of the page).  Badassity is not hiring a cleaner cause you work hard and want to enjoy your time not being at work.  MMM has always talked about insourcing.  Cooking, yardwork, remodeling etc etc.  If your not good at something, great!  Time to learn a new skill!  I would argue that cleaning and/or keeping things tidy is a mixture of habit and skill moreso than a chore.  Skills and habits take time and repitition.

But why is the line drawn there?

MMM doesn't grow his own food.  (Because buying food is "cheap enough").

MMM doesn't make his own clothing. (Because Costco is "cheap enough").

Some really ridiculous quotes in this thread.

"If you're not happy cleaning you won't be happy doing anything?"

You can replace cleaning with -

"Baking your own bread"

"Changing your own oil"

"Bicycling to work"

"Doing all your own plumbing"

"Hand-washing your own clothes" - it takes only 10 minutes a day if each family member chips in!

Any of the above can be done quite easily by most people with a modicum of effort - but not everyone chooses to do each of them. Most people have a few things that they "cheat" on.

The fact that some of you think you can tell others how to use their time, and how to change their time for money, is ridiculous. It's based on some sort of puritan work ethic which simply doesn't translate into the current society.

Right?! Some of the attitudes and comments are giving me a good laugh. One poster even said only under the most extreme circumstances would we have an excuse to hire a cleaner!

[protostache]

The fact that some of you think you can tell others how to use their time, and how to change their time for money, is ridiculous. It's based on some sort of puritan work ethic which simply doesn't translate into the current society.

Right?! Some of the attitudes and comments are giving me a good laugh. One poster even said only under the most extreme circumstances would we have an excuse to hire a cleaner!

I think it stems from the "face punches" idea that's been around here since the beginning. If you're doing something that's not "mustachian" it's face punch worthy, meaning that you are deserving of not-very-gentle berating and behavior correction. I've never liked that aspect of this forum. I definitely don't buy into it for the topic at hand. We've had cleaners on and off (back on starting soon) and with two kids under 3yo it's 100% worth it to us. It's one less ball that will inevitably get dropped.

[Khaetra]

The fact that some of you think you can tell others how to use their time, and how to change their time for money, is ridiculous. It's based on some sort of puritan work ethic which simply doesn't translate into the current society.

Right?! Some of the attitudes and comments are giving me a good laugh. One poster even said only under the most extreme circumstances would we have an excuse to hire a cleaner!

I think it stems from the "face punches" idea that's been around here since the beginning. If you're doing something that's not "mustachian" it's face punch worthy, meaning that you are deserving of not-very-gentle berating and behavior correction. I've never liked that aspect of this forum. I definitely don't buy into it for the topic at hand. We've had cleaners on and off (back on starting soon) and with two kids under 3yo it's 100% worth it to us. It's one less ball that will inevitably get dropped.

There have been certain instances where a 'face punch' has been needed (though I refer to it as a very stern talking to), but I agree this topic doesn't deserve it. 

It is true that when you're younger (20-30) you have more energy, stamina, etc.  Once you hit 40/50 though you notice a decrease and if you do have health issues (like myself and others) no matter how well you care for yourself there comes a time when you realize you just can't do it all by yourself anymore.  I remodeled/refreshed my home, most of it by myself but I had no shame in asking friends to come help me.  It did take me much longer and I did end up hurting myself pretty badly in the process.  If (and that's a huge if) I ever decided to take on a big project like that again, you can be damn sure I am going to hire all of it out.

I look at those with kids who say "I would never do that, it would make my kids lazy, spoiled and entitled".  My take on that is this:  you are not a superhuman, you cannot do it all.  If I had hired out housekeeping when my son was younger I would have explained that, plus that there's no shame in asking for help, be it friends or professionals.  I hired my lawn person because it was something I could no longer do myself, nor do I want to do it.  What takes them 20 minutes takes me at least 2-2 1/2 hours and that time I can spend doing things I want.  As I get older I will probably have to hire out house help.  I am okay with that, it's something I planned for money-wise and I have decluttered to the point that if they showed up ready I wouldn't have to move a thing.  And I don't need anyones permission to do so :).

[GuitarStv]

So, what is the age where we've decided that cleaning the house is too difficult a task to be done by yourself.  Asking for my 94 year old Polish grandmother.  (Who keeps an immaculate apartment, and would be disgusted at the suggestion of hiring someone to do it for her.)

[tipster350]

So, what is the age where we've decided that cleaning the house is too difficult a task to be done by yourself.  Asking for my 94 year old Polish grandmother.  (Who keeps an immaculate apartment, and would be disgusted at the suggestion of hiring someone to do it for her.)

Send her to me! My house is dirty and I'm too tired to clean it.

[oldtoyota]

Never. But I would.

I'm an entrepreneur. So it's either me spending time/money doing the work or using that time to make more money or have downtime.

I read an article about an entrepreneur who hired a housekeeper before she hired employees. Doing so freed her up to grow her business, which is doing very well now.

[Bloop Bloop]

So, what is the age where we've decided that cleaning the house is too difficult a task to be done by yourself.  Asking for my 94 year old Polish grandmother.  (Who keeps an immaculate apartment, and would be disgusted at the suggestion of hiring someone to do it for her.)

Are you really suggesting that everyone's preferences should be compared against your grandma's, or are you just plucking straw men out of nowhere and failing to respond to the substantive points that have been made?

[Zamboni]

So, what is the age where we've decided that cleaning the house is too difficult a task to be done by yourself.  Asking for my 94 year old Polish grandmother.  (Who keeps an immaculate apartment, and would be disgusted at the suggestion of hiring someone to do it for her.)

Wow, that's awesome.

When my own great grandmother was that age, she didn't recognize anyone in her own family and couldn't get out of bed and walk, so my grandmother changed her bedpan daily. Somehow she still knitted if someone brought her the needles and yarn, but I assure you that she was not up to the task of cleaning anything. My other great grandmother at that time somehow still lived on her own but had gone almost completely blind. Again, not the best at housecleaning (could not knit, but could recognize who we were from our voices.)

So, I guess that answer to your age question about cleaning is: it depends. 

I hope you got your own grandma's good genes!

[ElleFiji]

I don't hire a cleaner. But I do spend a lot in other categories to buy back time and health. The people without any health or energy issues really do need to be aware that staying healthy is a serious commitment and not a guarantee. I'm in my mid 30s and spend more time and energy on my diet and physical fitness than most of my peers. I still have less ability to do as many things as they do. In fact, everyone I know with chronic health issues or disabilities spends more time, effort, and mental math figuring out how to accomplish the most possible and be closest to normal. For some it means hiring cleaning or other help.

I'd encourage people my age who are healthy to invest time in staying active and eating well, AND to build a buffer in their budget for extra money they may need to spend if health issues crop up. It might be that at 65, you can do anything and everything... And then you can either treat yourself with the money, or pay for a friend to get a little help. I'd also keep an eye out for judging friends or partners if their ability to mountain bike or clean their house declines faster than yours. Those relationships are worth saving.

[Zamboni]

^This is great advice.

[Cranky]

Never. But I would.

I'm an entrepreneur. So it's either me spending time/money doing the work or using that time to make more money or have downtime.

I read an article about an entrepreneur who hired a housekeeper before she hired employees. Doing so freed her up to grow her business, which is doing very well now.

How do you define "downtime"? Why is washing the dishes or running the vacuum so exhausting? That's what always mystifies me - how does housework take up so much of your time?

[flipboard]

Never. But I would.

I'm an entrepreneur. So it's either me spending time/money doing the work or using that time to make more money or have downtime.

I read an article about an entrepreneur who hired a housekeeper before she hired employees. Doing so freed her up to grow her business, which is doing very well now.

How do you define "downtime"? Why is washing the dishes or running the vacuum so exhausting? That's what always mystifies me - how does housework take up so much of your time?

When you do don't do housework very often, it's hard to figure out how to do it efficiently. And hard to figure out how to optimise a house for efficient cleaning.

[ElleFiji]

My downtime means literal lying down time. Around 12h/day of it on the healthier end of the spectrum. For now, if I work a 12h day I can leave the chores and do them another day. But I can imagine that I won't always have that option.

[SimpleCycle]

We have cleaners every two weeks.  It's not "Mustachian" but for our current circumstances, it works for us.  It costs us about an hour and a half of paid work for each 5 hour cleaning session, even accounting for taxes on our wages.  Basically we are able to replace 2-3 hours of cleaning each weekend with family time because we have cleaners.

We still teach the kids to clean and tidy, much more than many of our friends.  My kids are 2 and 4 and their chores are emptying the wastebaskets, emptying the dishwasher, clearing their dishes from the table, putting their toys away, putting their clothes in the hamper, helping me with laundry, and putting away their folded clothes.  The four year old also sets the table and makes her bed.

There is still plenty to do even with cleaners, which is why I'm surprised by some of the responses here.  We still do the dishes daily, sweep daily, do laundry, make our beds, tidy and declutter.  It's not like biweekly cleaning replaces all housekeeping responsibilities.

[mizzourah2006]

We do not. After having 2 kids (3.5 and 1.5) my wife wanted to, but around the same time as our second I started working from home, so now on my lunches I do 15-20 minutes of house work per day. Saves me about $80/week and I’d probably Justin be surfing the net, or listening to a podcast (which I’d while I clean) anyway.

[SimpleCycle]

Same task, but the way you approach it radically changes how enjoyable it is.  I sometimes get frustrated with people who can't see that.  Your outlook and approach is much more important than what you're actually doing . . . and learning the skill of taking control of your own emotions to change drudgery into something more tolerable is incredibly important (the most important skill?) in life.

Optimism and badassity is the part of the MMM philosophy that resonates with me the most, and I totally agree that your attitude matters a ton in life.  There is so much evidence of bad attitudes across these forums.  Off Topic abounds with negative threads - "Things you Hate" is particularly irksome.  I also find that in parenting circles, it is popular to complain about how hard parenting is, when I think there's an opportunity to see it as both a challenge and a huge joy.

As I said, we have cleaners.  But I do the dishes daily and it's basically my meditation for the day.  What a gift - to be able to do just one thing mindfully.

[Dicey]

So, what is the age where we've decided that cleaning the house is too difficult a task to be done by yourself.  Asking for my 94 year old Polish grandmother.  (Who keeps an immaculate apartment, and would be disgusted at the suggestion of hiring someone to do it for her.)

What other responsibilities does she have? If she lives in an apartment, she has no cares for anything exterior or maintenance related, correct? So feeding herself and keeping her home and person tidy are the main things that are keeping her busy?

[afox]

Never. But I would.

I'm an entrepreneur. So it's either me spending time/money doing the work or using that time to make more money or have downtime.

I read an article about an entrepreneur who hired a housekeeper before she hired employees. Doing so freed her up to grow her business, which is doing very well now.

How do you define "downtime"? Why is washing the dishes or running the vacuum so exhausting? That's what always mystifies me - how does housework take up so much of your time?

When you do don't do housework very often, it's hard to figure out how to do it efficiently. And hard to figure out how to optimise a house for efficient cleaning.

Theres a lot to be said about optimizing a house for efficient cleaning. We dont have any carpets and dont wear shoes in the house. We have a robot vaccum that we run about once a week, we only need to mop about once  every two months and the mop sponge doesnt show a lot of dirt. That right there saves us a huge amount of time vs. shoes in the house and carpets.

Every time I stand in the puddle of urine at a public urinal I think about how disgusting it is to wear your shoes in the house. Women take note, as im telling you something your husbands wont tell you. Pretty much every urinal in public literally has a puddle of urinal in front of it and every man stands in the puddle of urine while they do their business, many times per day. Frankly, Im shocked that people wear shoes in their homes.

[flipboard]

So, what is the age where we've decided that cleaning the house is too difficult a task to be done by yourself.  Asking for my 94 year old Polish grandmother.  (Who keeps an immaculate apartment, and would be disgusted at the suggestion of hiring someone to do it for her.)

What other responsibilities does she have? If she lives in an apartment, she has no cares for anything exterior or maintenance related, correct? So feeding herself and keeping her home and person tidy are the main things that are keeping her busy?

Living in a house with exterior maintenance is a choice, not an obligation. That said, I have no idea about polish custom, but exterior building maintenance is a shared responsibility for appartments here (usually outsourced on behalf of residents, but some people do it themselves).

Being in an apartment doesn't mean there's no maintenance though: definitely if you own it, potentially if you rent depending on country.

[GuitarStv]

So, what is the age where we've decided that cleaning the house is too difficult a task to be done by yourself.  Asking for my 94 year old Polish grandmother.  (Who keeps an immaculate apartment, and would be disgusted at the suggestion of hiring someone to do it for her.)

What other responsibilities does she have? If she lives in an apartment, she has no cares for anything exterior or maintenance related, correct? So feeding herself and keeping her home and person tidy are the main things that are keeping her busy?

She does not care for the exterior of her apartment, or perform maintenance on it.  That is correct.

She manages and contributes to many (most?) of her church's fundraisers, regularly hosts people at her apartment, and volunteers at a soup kitchen.  Until her 80s she maintained a very large garden in her back yard . . . which provided her with enough vegetables for the year (she made pickles, tomato sauces, relish, jam, preserves, and the like).  Before my grandfather died eight years ago, she competed in some sort of square dancing competitions all over our province . . . but since then she has limited her recreational time to lawn bowling regularly during the summer.

To be fair, my grandmother is legitimately superhuman and I wouldn't expect many in their 20s to be able to keep up with her.  If you're legitimately crippled and can no longer perform the task of cleaning . . . by all means, hire a cleaner with a clear conscience.  I'm just trying to point out that you don't have to give up on cleaning your home because you've turned the ripe old feeble age of 40.

[Cassie]

My 94 year old aunt lives alone but has had cleaners the past 4 years due to limited vision and a bad knee.  She quit cooking and eats lean cuisine. My mom cleaned until she died of cancer at 89.  However,  for everyone like them there are probably 10 older people unable to do these things.  You never know which one you will be.

[cats]

I get upset about stuff all the time.  I could be upset about cleaning my house, but my contempt isn't going to get my house clean.  Nor is being upset with my spouse if there is some friction between responsibilities in our household.  And I don't buy the "I'm just not good at it, or my spouse has higher standards".  If you truly know your spouse, you know what their standards are.  If having a house cleaner is the one rub that is keeping you and your spouse from separating, you probably should just go ahead and get it over with. There's some quote along the lines of "Shared pain brings people together".  Crank the tunes and grab the 409.  Suffer with your spouse while you grow closer together.  Accomplish something.  It'll be better for a relationship than watching a movie together.

Maybe I'm interpreting incorrectly, but in cases where people say they hire a cleaner to reduce marital friction, that comes across to me as "we have an otherwise great marriage but we can't get to a mutually agreeable point on this one thing, so we're hiring a cleaner".  I'm sure if you look at most marriages, you will find some expenditure that are driven by spouses having different tastes/standards and not being willing to conform to the each other's taste on that particular area.

[honeybbq]

So, what is the age where we've decided that cleaning the house is too difficult a task to be done by yourself.  Asking for my 94 year old Polish grandmother.  (Who keeps an immaculate apartment, and would be disgusted at the suggestion of hiring someone to do it for her.)

This is hilarious. I wish I had a 94 year old grandmother around to judge me.
Nope, my older family is all dead. I'm sure they had wished they spent more time cleaning.

[Arbitrage]

Haven't ever done it.  Might do a one-time deep cleaning before we eventually sell the house. 

As to the general argument in this thread - I side with the idea that paying for people to clean up after me is non-Mustachian, and you all deserve facepunches.  There are many blog posts you could pull from that would support that MMM feels the same way.  That said, I also deserve facepunches for various things I do - like having a gardener, and like buying lots of plastic crap for my kids and all of their friends and classmates (though I'd personally stop the latter one if I could).  I could definitely see the attractiveness of having paid cleaners; I fought against having a gardener for years, but after getting one it's been such a load off of my mind, despite the creeping wussification.  However, cleaners haven't seemed worth it for me. 

You could use the 'spend money on what you value' argument to justify anything; that wouldn't make it Mustachian.  "I really love all of the time I spend in my Yukon XL and it allows me to take everything I own everywhere."  "Nothing makes me happier than wandering the rooms of my cavernous mansion and smiling while my staff prepare gourmet meals for me." 

Accept your facepunch, acknowledge the costs of your rich-person decision, and move on, presumably gleaning enough happiness from having hired help to overcome the costs.  What's the big deal?