Distancing myself from Bogleheads

[force majeure]

Folks,

I was posting a few messages over on the Bogleheads website. I think its safer over on MMM.
Anyone on here agree that 500K is not a lot of money? Thats what I was told.
I think most people who post here, they would consider 500K to be entering FI country.
I would certainly feel a loss of that amount in the markets - yes it would be life-changing.

[redbird]

"Not a lot of money?" No. 500k is a lot of money. However, if that is FI country or not for you depends on your spending. 500k isn't FI for me, and my spending is quite low. I consider my minimum FI number to be in the 600k-ish range. I didn't FIRE at reaching that minimum FI number either. I am far too risk adverse for that.

[sentry]

Completely agree. My wife and I are looking at being FI around 650K. 500K is equal to $20,000 per year for the rest of your life at a 4% withdrawal rate. So yeah, I'd call that quite a bit of money!

[jim555]

You know you can't retire on less than $3,000,000 silly.

[maizefolk]

*shrug*

I don't think the advice at bogleheads is wrong, it's just targeted at folks who plan to live a very different lifestyle in retirement. I wouldn't want to trade the extra years working to save up the $2.5-5M that seems to be a more standard target for retirement over there, but it doesn't bother me if other people have a different value calculation. I wouldn't put them on the same scale as the issues with predatory financial advisors and unrealistic stock market growth projections in the "ramseyism" thread that presumably inspired the title of this one.

[jjandjab]

That's not all that surprising. Bogleheads are focused on low cost, long term investing based on index funds and its variations. Although some are frugal, that's not always the main ideology.

Mustachians are focused on high savings rates with low cost of living, enabling one to retire early - and most also seem to do index investing.

So in a broad generalization, most Mustachians are likely Bogleheads, but not vice versa...  For instance, BH's often discuss the best cars, insurance rates, etc. A true MMM would be ditching the car and getting a bike.

Just because a Boglehead likes to invest in Vanguard index funds doesn't mean they want to retire on 500k and I can understand that. I personally am looking for a few times 500k myself, but to each their own. If you can live forever on 20k -  I think that awesome. I just know I wouldn't be able to do that and most folks there might not want that either. But don't take it personally - I typically don't see folks over there being flat out mean...

[Bateaux]

I first visited Bogleheads about five years ago.  I was out of my league.  I posted I'd like to FIRE on about $100 a day.  Needless to say i was laughed off the site.  At the time I had about enough saved to draw $100 a day with 4% withdrawal.   They were right in my case, $100 a day isn't enough for us to retire comfortably in the US.  Working towards $200 a day.  I still have an account at Bogleheads,  i can almost belong now.

[SnackDog]

Bogleheads are mostly boomers who seek value. Their parents may have lived through a depression or war. They like their jobs and plan to work many years. Some will retire late, rather than early.  They see this as maximizing value. They are very risk-averse and like planning for the worst case scenario.  One guy said in a poll he would not retire early with less than $75MM. 

MMM are millenials.  They don't like working and wish to be free to do their own thing.  They hate anyone telling them what to do, hate the status quo, and want out. They like traveling.  They admire Peter not just for retiring young but for getting rich with a blog.

[I'm a red panda]

So in a broad generalization, most Mustachians are likely Bogleheads, but not vice versa...  For instance, BH's often discuss the best cars, insurance rates, etc. A true MMM would be ditching the car and getting a bike.

Or a new electric car...
MMM isn't exactly "no car" anymore.

[Bateaux]

So in a broad generalization, most Mustachians are likely Bogleheads, but not vice versa...  For instance, BH's often discuss the best cars, insurance rates, etc. A true MMM would be ditching the car and getting a bike.

Or a new electric car...
MMM isn't exactly "no car" anymore.

I hope to electrify some day.   They still need some tweeking.  I salute the early adopterw paving the way however.

[TheAnonOne]

I first visited Bogleheads about five years ago.  I was out of my league.  I posted I'd like to FIRE on about $100 a day.  Needless to say i was laughed off the site.  At the time I had about enough saved to draw $100 a day with 4% withdrawal.   They were right in my case, $100 a day isn't enough for us to retire comfortably in the US.  Working towards $200 a day.  I still have an account at Bogleheads,  i can almost belong now.

Per Day is a weird measurement, every time I see it I question why it is used.

$100/Day is $36.5k a year, many here live on that or LESS in the USA (This forum is mainly US based)

To jump to $200/day seems easy but, in reality, that is $73k a year! A massive increase (double obviously)

$36k might be mid/low here but $73k is very HIGH here, unless it is carrying a mortgage in a HCOL area.

[exmmmer]

To jump to $200/day seems easy but, in reality, that is $73k a year! A massive increase (double obviously)

$36k might be mid/low here but $73k is very HIGH here, unless it is carrying a mortgage in a HCOL area.

hmmm... we are pretty lucky in that we will have right around that amount in about six years. We're not retiring *nearly* as early as we had originally hoped, but we got lucky with pensions and matching funds. Otherwise we'd still be several years from retirement, not four months.

Then again, we'll be cutting expenses way back by living in Mexico. The difference is significant enough that I project pumping our cash/investment balance (not counting pension value) from low five-figures up to $500k within a decade. This is assuming that we don't suddenly change into some other type of person and spend it all on bling. lol

Regarding other forums, most of them end up chasing me off at various points. Bogleheads are rather stuffy, even ERE was hard to take after awhile, and ERE has some very opinionated people. I even have my issues with MMM, as he doesn't really seem to be RE, or even FI necessarily. But the forums are pretty cool. Actually, my biggest issue here is the forum software! hah...

[Milizard]

I find shooting so high frustrating, so I don't blame you for leaving BH.  At first, I found MMM frustrating too, with the high early career incomes in Pete's story.  I come from a money forum with people from all sorts of income/net worth ranges (YMAM), but I do like the additional frugality and environmentalism found here.  The early-retirement one looks kinda interesting, too.  I may go visit a little over there.

[spokey doke]

I find shooting so high frustrating, so I don't blame you for leaving BH.  At first, I found MMM frustrating too, with the high early career incomes in Pete's story.  I come from a money forum with people from all sorts of income/net worth ranges (YMAM), but I do like the additional frugality and environmentalism found here.  The early-retirement one looks kinda interesting, too.  I may go visit a little over there.

While I fit much better here, I check BH regularly, and a number of the discussions have been really educative.  There is plenty of nonsense, but a number of regular contributors are really sharp about finance and economics.  I try to ignore the nonsense.

[mizzourah2006]

Folks,

I was posting a few messages over on the Bogleheads website. I think its safer over on MMM.
Anyone on here agree that 500K is not a lot of money? Thats what I was told.
I think most people who post here, they would consider 500K to be entering FI country.
I would certainly feel a loss of that amount in the markets - yes it would be life-changing.

I think of FI and RE as two different numbers, so I could see how $500k could be FI territory, but RE would be pretty tough on it for us.

Our FI # is $900k and our RE is 1.5 million, but as others have mentioned it depends on the individual and their expenses.

[dandypandys]

i go to the Bogleheads for pretty much one thread- the 3 -fund.  Taylor Larimore has been particularly helpful in answering my newbie Qs.

[Chairman]

Bogleheads is the best place for in depth technical advice on investment and taxation etc. They believe in LBYM but not as centrally as MMM, which focuses more on lifestyle. I see value in both sites and think both communities are relatively friendly.

As for me, $500k isn't FI territory. At $1m I'll start thinking about it.

[Paul der Krake]

I read the Bogleheads for the ridiculously knowledgeable people who frequent it and are kind enough to share their investment knowledge.

And while the userbase definitely skews older and wealthier, there is something for everyone there.

[wenchsenior]

I've seen the following hierarchy of forum ideologies related to the funds needed to FIRE on other threads, and generally agree:

ERE -- home of the bare minimalists, requires willingness to question EVERYTHING, spend the absolute minimum and probably not live in a mainstream house or apartment

MMM -- mostly serious optimizers/hefty savers, often with savings rates of 50%+, quite a few targeting early retirement in 30s and 40s, often with 3-4% or higher SWRs, given the assumption that additional income streams will come along easily if needed

early-retirement.org -- more mainstream LBYMers, but with higher expenses/lower savings rates, retirement before age 50 is rare and if you plan to do so with higher than a 2-3% SWR people will generally say you are being too risky

Bogleheads -- most mainstream/conservative of the lot, focus on indexing and reducing fees/maximizing wealth growth and not necessarily early retirement.  Lots of large nesteggs and very low SWRs.

Good summary.

I think there's value to be had in all these different sites and philosophies.  In terms of our personal FI goals (~2-2.5 million equivalent assets), compared to MMM-type hypothetical numbers (500K is not a small amount of money, but no way is it remotely enough for us to consider retiring), our actual numbers (net worth close to 700K), and the fact that my husband's earliest possible retirement option would be at 60 but he's likely to retire at the usual 65-67, we don't really fit in on this board.

On the other hand, I love this board because it reminds me to continue to focus on simplifying our lives, and not engage in wasteful spending.

[undercover]

Regarding other forums, most of them end up chasing me off at various points. Bogleheads are rather stuffy, even ERE was hard to take after awhile, and ERE has some very opinionated people. I even have my issues with MMM, as he doesn't really seem to be RE, or even FI necessarily.

Being "FI" is more important than being "RE", which is why I don't think it matters which community you take nuggets of information from. Whether you live an extravagant or modest lifestyle is irrelevant to the point that we're all basically here for the same reasons - which is why I roll my eyes at the animosity exhibited from both sides towards those that don't "fit" the mold of the typical poster.

I see this site as the autopilot approach to investment. Bring a high income, make a few small changes here and there and, boom, you're retired. MMM is about efficiency and lifestyle. Bogleheads is about hardcore maximizing regardless of whether or not the additional funds are necessary in the long run or not. ERE is about hardcore minimizing to the point of ignoring the things you may want later. So I definitely prefer the MMM approach...as do most people. At the end of the day though, there's useless information everywhere. It's a bit hard to not fall prey to the overarching ideologies that are abound so I understand the frustration, but it's important to keep your eye on your prize and employ whatever tools and techniques you see as fit.

[aceyou]

Bogleheads has solid information, and I occasionally head there if I can't find what I need here. 

MMM is my go to place because of the community.  99% of the nuts and bolts information can be found on both sites, but I just relate more to people's perspective and attitude over here. 

[MMMdude]

Folks,

I was posting a few messages over on the Bogleheads website. I think its safer over on MMM.
Anyone on here agree that 500K is not a lot of money? Thats what I was told.
I think most people who post here, they would consider 500K to be entering FI country.
I would certainly feel a loss of that amount in the markets - yes it would be life-changing.

Oh frick man I can't stand that site - pretty much if anyone proposes retiring with less than $5Million they are ridiculed.  Reminds me of my brother's stance.  Won't even think about retiring until they hit that mark and they swear they live simply.  The $80,000 pickup truck, $70,000 SUV, $900,000 house, $1500 per month grocery bill and private school for the kids would say otherwise.

[mr_orange]

I have posted a bit on Bogleheads because I think they have a better sampling of older folks with more complicated tax situations.  MMM has a heavy focus on younger people and on minimizing past what I consider a balance point. 

I find the discussions on MMM to be more engaging though and the journal section is really nice. 

[Bateaux]

I hot a lot of my early financial education on AOL financial message boards over a decade ago.    I've picked up a lot from the MMM site as well.

[maizefolk]

I have posted a bit on Bogleheads because I think they have a better sampling of older folks with more complicated tax situations.  MMM has a heavy focus on younger people and on minimizing past what I consider a balance point. 

I find the discussions on MMM to be more engaging though and the journal section is really nice.

A lot of conversations that are headed in interesting directions at bogleheads get shut down by the mods as off topic and/or violating their rules. The mods here on the MMM forums have a much lighter hand, plus there is an official off topic section.

[DieHard_772]

I've seen the following hierarchy of forum ideologies related to the funds needed to FIRE on other threads, and generally agree:

ERE -- home of the bare minimalists, requires willingness to question EVERYTHING, spend the absolute minimum and probably not live in a mainstream house or apartment

MMM -- mostly serious optimizers/hefty savers, often with savings rates of 50%+, quite a few targeting early retirement in 30s and 40s, often with 3-4% or higher SWRs, given the assumption that additional income streams will come along easily if needed

early-retirement.org -- more mainstream LBYMers, but with higher expenses/lower savings rates, retirement before age 50 is rare and if you plan to do so with higher than a 2-3% SWR people will generally say you are being too risky

Bogleheads -- most mainstream/conservative of the lot, focus on indexing and reducing fees/maximizing wealth growth and not necessarily early retirement.  Lots of large nesteggs and very low SWRs.

Bravo, this is a fabulous summary!

[DieHard_772]

Bogleheads are mostly boomers who seek value. Their parents may have lived through a depression or war. They like their jobs and plan to work many years. Some will retire late, rather than early.  They see this as maximizing value. They are very risk-averse and like planning for the worst case scenario.  One guy said in a poll he would not retire early with less than $75MM. 

MMM are millenials.  They don't like working and wish to be free to do their own thing.  They hate anyone telling them what to do, hate the status quo, and want out. They like traveling.  They admire Peter not just for retiring young but for getting rich with a blog.

Well said.
I am a member of a local Bogleheads chapter (it's how I heard of MMM actually), I can verify this seems to be true.  I'm the youngest regular by far.

[rpr]

Bogleheads are mostly boomers who seek value. Their parents may have lived through a depression or war. They like their jobs and plan to work many years. Some will retire late, rather than early.  They see this as maximizing value. They are very risk-averse and like planning for the worst case scenario.  One guy said in a poll he would not retire early with less than $75MM. 

MMM are millenials.  They don't like working and wish to be free to do their own thing.  They hate anyone telling them what to do, hate the status quo, and want out. They like traveling.  They admire Peter not just for retiring young but for getting rich with a blog.

Great summary.

And as a Gen-X'er, I see myself getting value from both :)

[DieHard_772]

I meet with a group of Bogleheads every month.

What I see is, many Bogleheads live the conventional "American Dream": work for 30-40 years, and retire well.  What makes them different from the average person is that they are financially literate do-it-yourselvers, risk averse and believe in a long-term buy and hold strategy of low-cost index funds (ie Vanguard).  Just my impression that the composite successful Boglehead probably invested 10-20% of their income for 30 years, maxed out their 401ks, maybe lived below their means by spendy standards, ended up with $2 million in their portfolios, and plan on spending $60k+ every year for the rest of their lives.

Great people who are very smart about money and enjoying life.  Unlike Mustachians, they go out to lunch every time they meet, and spend at least $20.
But not averse to meeting at a library :)

I'm grateful to Bogleheads because they introduced me to Mr. Money Moustache.

[DieHard_772]

I have posted a bit on Bogleheads because I think they have a better sampling of older folks with more complicated tax situations.  MMM has a heavy focus on younger people and on minimizing past what I consider a balance point. 

I find the discussions on MMM to be more engaging though and the journal section is really nice.

I relate.  I get value from both.

[surfhb]

There are plenty of numbnuts on BH site....just as there are plenty on MMM.   


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[Chairman]

I have posted a bit on Bogleheads because I think they have a better sampling of older folks with more complicated tax situations.  MMM has a heavy focus on younger people and on minimizing past what I consider a balance point. 

I find the discussions on MMM to be more engaging though and the journal section is really nice.

A lot of conversations that are headed in interesting directions at bogleheads get shut down by the mods as off topic and/or violating their rules. The mods here on the MMM forums have a much lighter hand, plus there is an official off topic section.

I think they have to because the site is officially run by a nonprofit, so all discussion has to be on-topic and further their goal of "financial literacy".

[force majeure]

$20 on lunch - are you crazy? lol.

[Buckeyes1]

What I do appreciate about Bogleheads is that the crowd is much older than me and been there, done that with respect to the stock market. It's interesting to listen to them talk about what it was really like to go through various crashes and periods of deep economic uncertainty.

Most of the crowd here is young and can only see it through the eyes of emotionless charts and back-testing. It has given me more of a balanced view of things rather than thinking it is a magical money machine without real risk, which can be the attitude here from time to time.

Also, posts by Nisiprius are always a master class in investing and the associated emotions.

[spokey doke]

Bogleheads are mostly boomers who seek value. Their parents may have lived through a depression or war. They like their jobs and plan to work many years. Some will retire late, rather than early.  They see this as maximizing value. They are very risk-averse and like planning for the worst case scenario.  One guy said in a poll he would not retire early with less than $75MM. 

MMM are millenials.  They don't like working and wish to be free to do their own thing.  They hate anyone telling them what to do, hate the status quo, and want out. They like traveling.  They admire Peter not just for retiring young but for getting rich with a blog.

Great summary.

And as a Gen-X'er, I see myself getting value from both :)

overlooked...once again

[honeybbq]

Bogleheads are mostly boomers who seek value. Their parents may have lived through a depression or war. They like their jobs and plan to work many years. Some will retire late, rather than early.  They see this as maximizing value. They are very risk-averse and like planning for the worst case scenario.  One guy said in a poll he would not retire early with less than $75MM. 

MMM are millenials.  They don't like working and wish to be free to do their own thing.  They hate anyone telling them what to do, hate the status quo, and want out. They like traveling.  They admire Peter not just for retiring young but for getting rich with a blog.

Great summary.

And as a Gen-X'er, I see myself getting value from both :)

Me too. :) I want to retire early but have BH amount of money first. :D

[EnjoyIt]

Also, posts by Nisiprius are always a master class in investing and the associated emotions.

If there is ever a reply by Nisiprius, I always stop and read it when perusing a thread.  His thinking is unmatched on that site.

[ysette9]

I find a lot of intellectual value in the BH forums, so for pure learning and the nitty gritty technical stuff, they are a great resource. For community and feeling loved and supported and challenged and entertained, MMM forums wins hands down.

Living in a HCOL area and not being totally mustachian, we don't totally fit the average MMM profile. However, the 50%+ savings rate coupled with the strong focus on the prize ("prize" being retire as early as possible) makes me feel like I fit in better here. The thing I appreciate best about the MMM forums is the constant reminder to be thoughtful about your spending and therefore your larger goals, and make sure your spending aligns with what brings you joy. I don't see any consideration of that over at BH. It feels like they are about maximizing $ whereas MMM is about maximizing life joy.

[OurTown]

I like the Bogleheads & I have directed a number of people to their Wiki.

[FireHiker]

Based on the summary here I think my husband is more Boglehead than Mustachian. His target for our FIRE number is around 2.5M although I'd be content with 1.25M. I've never checked out the Bogleheads community; I'd prefer to work towards further frugalizing our lifestyle so I like the advice here.

[mistershankly]

MMM are millenials.  They don't like working and wish to be free to do their own thing.  They hate anyone telling them what to do, hate the status quo, and want out. They like traveling.  They admire Peter not just for retiring young but for getting rich with a blog.

Great summary.

And as a Gen-X'er, I see myself getting value from both :)

As Gen-Xers, I think we're different from the rest.  We don't like working and wish to be free to do our own thing.  We hate anyone telling us what to do, hate the status quo, and want out.  We also love traveling.  We see Pete as the return of entrepreneurship and independence that counters the wave of post-industrial conformity our generation was sold on (but stopped buying into).  Wait a minute.... :)

We also saw stock market meltdowns, had our brothers and sisters hauled off to war in the middle east, saw some incredible world events play out in real-time, and were labeled as lazy and lacking ambition.  Wait a minute, again... :)

I think the MMM crowd and Bogleheads both have some amazing wisdom that we all can appreciate.

[rpr]

I like the Bogleheads & I have directed a number of people to their Wiki.

Indeed, if a friend or colleague comes to me and asks for retirement help/advice, I will first direct them to the bogleheads wiki and forum. I also send them a link to the Bogleheads guides at the library. The advice is fairly more mainstream and most people tend to be more receptive to it. If however, I meet someone younger who looks for advice on retiring early, then I send them to the MMM website as well.

[AdrianC]

What I do appreciate about Bogleheads is that the crowd is much older than me and been there, done that with respect to the stock market. It's interesting to listen to them talk about what it was really like to go through various crashes and periods of deep economic uncertainty.

Most of the crowd here is young and can only see it through the eyes of emotionless charts and back-testing. It has given me more of a balanced view of things rather than thinking it is a magical money machine without real risk, which can be the attitude here from time to time.

Also, posts by Nisiprius are always a master class in investing and the associated emotions.

+1

I bookmarked his profile and do "search users posts". Always worth reading his stuff.

[rpr]

Bogleheads are mostly boomers who seek value. Their parents may have lived through a depression or war. They like their jobs and plan to work many years. Some will retire late, rather than early.  They see this as maximizing value. They are very risk-averse and like planning for the worst case scenario.  One guy said in a poll he would not retire early with less than $75MM. 

MMM are millenials.  They don't like working and wish to be free to do their own thing.  They hate anyone telling them what to do, hate the status quo, and want out. They like traveling.  They admire Peter not just for retiring young but for getting rich with a blog.

Great summary.

And as a Gen-X'er, I see myself getting value from both :)

overlooked...once again

Good one :D

[maizefolk]

MMM are millenials.  They don't like working and wish to be free to do their own thing.  They hate anyone telling them what to do, hate the status quo, and want out. They like traveling.  They admire Peter not just for retiring young but for getting rich with a blog.

Great summary.

And as a Gen-X'er, I see myself getting value from both :)

As Gen-Xers, I think we're different from the rest.  We don't like working and wish to be free to do our own thing.  We hate anyone telling us what to do, hate the status quo, and want out.  We also love traveling.  We see Pete as the return of entrepreneurship and independence that counters the wave of post-industrial conformity our generation was sold on (but stopped buying into).  Wait a minute.... :)

We also saw stock market meltdowns, had our brothers and sisters hauled off to war in the middle east, saw some incredible world events play out in real-time, and were labeled as lazy and lacking ambition.  Wait a minute, again... :)

I think the MMM crowd and Bogleheads both have some amazing wisdom that we all can appreciate.

It's almost like generalizations used to describe whole generations of people could apply equally well to any group of people! But of course that's crazy talk. ;-)

[FiveSigmas]

Also, posts by Nisiprius are always a master class in investing and the associated emotions.

If there is ever a reply by Nisiprius, I always stop and read it when perusing a thread.  His thinking is unmatched on that site.

Glad I'm not the only Nisi fan around here. He always has an interesting take on matters that's often surprising and new to me. He's also old enough to have seen a lot and accumulated a great deal of wisdom. One of my favorite posts of his:

https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=79939

[rpr]

Also, posts by Nisiprius are always a master class in investing and the associated emotions.

If there is ever a reply by Nisiprius, I always stop and read it when perusing a thread.  His thinking is unmatched on that site.

Glad I'm not the only Nisi fan around here. He always has an interesting take on matters that's often surprising and new to me. He's also old enough to have seen a lot and accumulated a great deal of wisdom. One of my favorite posts of his:

https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=79939

Thanks for posting that link. Indeed, that is a favorite of mine as well.

[Chairman]

Nisiprius is great. I also like Kevin M, KlangFool, livesoft, and many others.

[ImCheap]

I enjoyed many years on BH, contributed a fair bit as well. But.........I got the boot.

It is a great site with a lot of good people, it was a blessing in disguise getting the boot, I spent way to much time typing on BH, learned a lot and think I passed on a bunch. I still read many of the threads today.

I do wonder however when you look at some of those high post counts, the ones who seem to post everyday if they have a life outside of Bogleheads. Don't get me wrong, the post are great and mostly well thought out but man it has to a 8-10hour gig everyday.

 Edited,  removed  nasty government comment, apologize  to who may have took offense..











   

[surfhb]

I was booted for inciting hostility towards other members.   

Another BH asked a question about if he or she thought a toy rental service for their kid made sense.   I just about lost it.

BH for investing
MMM for lifestyle




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