Post by: force majeure on April 15, 2017, 10:17:37 AM
I was posting a few messages over on the Bogleheads website. I think its safer over on MMM.
Anyone on here agree that 500K is not a lot of money? Thats what I was told.
I think most people who post here, they would consider 500K to be entering FI country.
I would certainly feel a loss of that amount in the markets - yes it would be life-changing.
Post by: redbird on April 15, 2017, 10:26:09 AM
Post by: sentry on April 15, 2017, 10:26:32 AM
Post by: jim555 on April 15, 2017, 10:32:10 AM
Post by: maizefolk on April 15, 2017, 10:36:18 AM
I don't think the advice at bogleheads is wrong, it's just targeted at folks who plan to live a very different lifestyle in retirement. I wouldn't want to trade the extra years working to save up the $2.5-5M that seems to be a more standard target for retirement over there, but it doesn't bother me if other people have a different value calculation. I wouldn't put them on the same scale as the issues with predatory financial advisors and unrealistic stock market growth projections in the "ramseyism" thread that presumably inspired the title of this one.
Post by: jjandjab on April 15, 2017, 03:09:10 PM
Mustachians are focused on high savings rates with low cost of living, enabling one to retire early - and most also seem to do index investing.
So in a broad generalization, most Mustachians are likely Bogleheads, but not vice versa... For instance, BH's often discuss the best cars, insurance rates, etc. A true MMM would be ditching the car and getting a bike.
Just because a Boglehead likes to invest in Vanguard index funds doesn't mean they want to retire on 500k and I can understand that. I personally am looking for a few times 500k myself, but to each their own. If you can live forever on 20k - I think that awesome. I just know I wouldn't be able to do that and most folks there might not want that either. But don't take it personally - I typically don't see folks over there being flat out mean...
Post by: Bateaux on April 15, 2017, 05:01:30 PM
Post by: SnackDog on April 15, 2017, 06:05:55 PM
MMM are millenials. They don't like working and wish to be free to do their own thing. They hate anyone telling them what to do, hate the status quo, and want out. They like traveling. They admire Peter not just for retiring young but for getting rich with a blog.
Post by: I'm a red panda on April 15, 2017, 06:26:59 PM
So in a broad generalization, most Mustachians are likely Bogleheads, but not vice versa... For instance, BH's often discuss the best cars, insurance rates, etc. A true MMM would be ditching the car and getting a bike.
Or a new electric car...
MMM isn't exactly "no car" anymore.
Post by: Bateaux on April 15, 2017, 06:38:11 PM
So in a broad generalization, most Mustachians are likely Bogleheads, but not vice versa... For instance, BH's often discuss the best cars, insurance rates, etc. A true MMM would be ditching the car and getting a bike.
Or a new electric car...
MMM isn't exactly "no car" anymore.
I hope to electrify some day. They still need some tweeking. I salute the early adopterw paving the way however.
Post by: TheAnonOne on April 15, 2017, 11:49:36 PM
I first visited Bogleheads about five years ago. I was out of my league. I posted I'd like to FIRE on about $100 a day. Needless to say i was laughed off the site. At the time I had about enough saved to draw $100 a day with 4% withdrawal. They were right in my case, $100 a day isn't enough for us to retire comfortably in the US. Working towards $200 a day. I still have an account at Bogleheads, i can almost belong now.
Per Day is a weird measurement, every time I see it I question why it is used.
$100/Day is $36.5k a year, many here live on that or LESS in the USA (This forum is mainly US based)
To jump to $200/day seems easy but, in reality, that is $73k a year! A massive increase (double obviously)
$36k might be mid/low here but $73k is very HIGH here, unless it is carrying a mortgage in a HCOL area.
Post by: exmmmer on April 16, 2017, 05:01:18 AM
To jump to $200/day seems easy but, in reality, that is $73k a year! A massive increase (double obviously)
$36k might be mid/low here but $73k is very HIGH here, unless it is carrying a mortgage in a HCOL area.
hmmm... we are pretty lucky in that we will have right around that amount in about six years. We're not retiring *nearly* as early as we had originally hoped, but we got lucky with pensions and matching funds. Otherwise we'd still be several years from retirement, not four months.
Then again, we'll be cutting expenses way back by living in Mexico. The difference is significant enough that I project pumping our cash/investment balance (not counting pension value) from low five-figures up to $500k within a decade. This is assuming that we don't suddenly change into some other type of person and spend it all on bling. lol
Regarding other forums, most of them end up chasing me off at various points. Bogleheads are rather stuffy, even ERE was hard to take after awhile, and ERE has some very opinionated people. I even have my issues with MMM, as he doesn't really seem to be RE, or even FI necessarily. But the forums are pretty cool. Actually, my biggest issue here is the forum software! hah...
Post by: Milizard on April 16, 2017, 05:56:06 AM
Post by: spokey doke on April 16, 2017, 07:31:37 AM
I find shooting so high frustrating, so I don't blame you for leaving BH. At first, I found MMM frustrating too, with the high early career incomes in Pete's story. I come from a money forum with people from all sorts of income/net worth ranges (YMAM), but I do like the additional frugality and environmentalism found here. The early-retirement one looks kinda interesting, too. I may go visit a little over there.
While I fit much better here, I check BH regularly, and a number of the discussions have been really educative. There is plenty of nonsense, but a number of regular contributors are really sharp about finance and economics. I try to ignore the nonsense.
Post by: mizzourah2006 on April 16, 2017, 07:31:45 AM
Folks,
I was posting a few messages over on the Bogleheads website. I think its safer over on MMM.
Anyone on here agree that 500K is not a lot of money? Thats what I was told.
I think most people who post here, they would consider 500K to be entering FI country.
I would certainly feel a loss of that amount in the markets - yes it would be life-changing.
I think of FI and RE as two different numbers, so I could see how $500k could be FI territory, but RE would be pretty tough on it for us.
Our FI # is $900k and our RE is 1.5 million, but as others have mentioned it depends on the individual and their expenses.
Post by: dandypandys on April 16, 2017, 08:54:45 AM
Post by: Chairman on April 16, 2017, 09:18:29 AM
As for me, $500k isn't FI territory. At $1m I'll start thinking about it.
Post by: Paul der Krake on April 16, 2017, 10:01:06 AM
And while the userbase definitely skews older and wealthier, there is something for everyone there.
Post by: wenchsenior on April 16, 2017, 11:10:49 AM
I've seen the following hierarchy of forum ideologies related to the funds needed to FIRE on other threads, and generally agree:
ERE -- home of the bare minimalists, requires willingness to question EVERYTHING, spend the absolute minimum and probably not live in a mainstream house or apartment
MMM -- mostly serious optimizers/hefty savers, often with savings rates of 50%+, quite a few targeting early retirement in 30s and 40s, often with 3-4% or higher SWRs, given the assumption that additional income streams will come along easily if needed
early-retirement.org -- more mainstream LBYMers, but with higher expenses/lower savings rates, retirement before age 50 is rare and if you plan to do so with higher than a 2-3% SWR people will generally say you are being too risky
Bogleheads -- most mainstream/conservative of the lot, focus on indexing and reducing fees/maximizing wealth growth and not necessarily early retirement. Lots of large nesteggs and very low SWRs.
Good summary.
I think there's value to be had in all these different sites and philosophies. In terms of our personal FI goals (~2-2.5 million equivalent assets), compared to MMM-type hypothetical numbers (500K is not a small amount of money, but no way is it remotely enough for us to consider retiring), our actual numbers (net worth close to 700K), and the fact that my husband's earliest possible retirement option would be at 60 but he's likely to retire at the usual 65-67, we don't really fit in on this board.
On the other hand, I love this board because it reminds me to continue to focus on simplifying our lives, and not engage in wasteful spending.
Post by: undercover on April 16, 2017, 12:09:20 PM
Regarding other forums, most of them end up chasing me off at various points. Bogleheads are rather stuffy, even ERE was hard to take after awhile, and ERE has some very opinionated people. I even have my issues with MMM, as he doesn't really seem to be RE, or even FI necessarily.
Being "FI" is more important than being "RE", which is why I don't think it matters which community you take nuggets of information from. Whether you live an extravagant or modest lifestyle is irrelevant to the point that we're all basically here for the same reasons - which is why I roll my eyes at the animosity exhibited from both sides towards those that don't "fit" the mold of the typical poster.
I see this site as the autopilot approach to investment. Bring a high income, make a few small changes here and there and, boom, you're retired. MMM is about efficiency and lifestyle. Bogleheads is about hardcore maximizing regardless of whether or not the additional funds are necessary in the long run or not. ERE is about hardcore minimizing to the point of ignoring the things you may want later. So I definitely prefer the MMM approach...as do most people. At the end of the day though, there's useless information everywhere. It's a bit hard to not fall prey to the overarching ideologies that are abound so I understand the frustration, but it's important to keep your eye on your prize and employ whatever tools and techniques you see as fit.
Post by: aceyou on April 16, 2017, 01:17:22 PM
MMM is my go to place because of the community. 99% of the nuts and bolts information can be found on both sites, but I just relate more to people's perspective and attitude over here.
Post by: MMMdude on April 16, 2017, 06:06:00 PM
Folks,
I was posting a few messages over on the Bogleheads website. I think its safer over on MMM.
Anyone on here agree that 500K is not a lot of money? Thats what I was told.
I think most people who post here, they would consider 500K to be entering FI country.
I would certainly feel a loss of that amount in the markets - yes it would be life-changing.
Oh frick man I can't stand that site - pretty much if anyone proposes retiring with less than $5Million they are ridiculed. Reminds me of my brother's stance. Won't even think about retiring until they hit that mark and they swear they live simply. The $80,000 pickup truck, $70,000 SUV, $900,000 house, $1500 per month grocery bill and private school for the kids would say otherwise.
Post by: mr_orange on April 16, 2017, 06:38:23 PM
I find the discussions on MMM to be more engaging though and the journal section is really nice.
Post by: Bateaux on April 16, 2017, 09:30:54 PM
Post by: maizefolk on April 16, 2017, 09:39:20 PM
I have posted a bit on Bogleheads because I think they have a better sampling of older folks with more complicated tax situations. MMM has a heavy focus on younger people and on minimizing past what I consider a balance point.
I find the discussions on MMM to be more engaging though and the journal section is really nice.
A lot of conversations that are headed in interesting directions at bogleheads get shut down by the mods as off topic and/or violating their rules. The mods here on the MMM forums have a much lighter hand, plus there is an official off topic section.
Post by: DieHard_772 on April 16, 2017, 09:46:35 PM
I've seen the following hierarchy of forum ideologies related to the funds needed to FIRE on other threads, and generally agree:
ERE -- home of the bare minimalists, requires willingness to question EVERYTHING, spend the absolute minimum and probably not live in a mainstream house or apartment
MMM -- mostly serious optimizers/hefty savers, often with savings rates of 50%+, quite a few targeting early retirement in 30s and 40s, often with 3-4% or higher SWRs, given the assumption that additional income streams will come along easily if needed
early-retirement.org -- more mainstream LBYMers, but with higher expenses/lower savings rates, retirement before age 50 is rare and if you plan to do so with higher than a 2-3% SWR people will generally say you are being too risky
Bogleheads -- most mainstream/conservative of the lot, focus on indexing and reducing fees/maximizing wealth growth and not necessarily early retirement. Lots of large nesteggs and very low SWRs.
Bravo, this is a fabulous summary!
Post by: DieHard_772 on April 16, 2017, 09:47:50 PM
Bogleheads are mostly boomers who seek value. Their parents may have lived through a depression or war. They like their jobs and plan to work many years. Some will retire late, rather than early. They see this as maximizing value. They are very risk-averse and like planning for the worst case scenario. One guy said in a poll he would not retire early with less than $75MM.
MMM are millenials. They don't like working and wish to be free to do their own thing. They hate anyone telling them what to do, hate the status quo, and want out. They like traveling. They admire Peter not just for retiring young but for getting rich with a blog.
Well said.
I am a member of a local Bogleheads chapter (it's how I heard of MMM actually), I can verify this seems to be true. I'm the youngest regular by far.
Post by: rpr on April 16, 2017, 09:50:26 PM
Bogleheads are mostly boomers who seek value. Their parents may have lived through a depression or war. They like their jobs and plan to work many years. Some will retire late, rather than early. They see this as maximizing value. They are very risk-averse and like planning for the worst case scenario. One guy said in a poll he would not retire early with less than $75MM.
MMM are millenials. They don't like working and wish to be free to do their own thing. They hate anyone telling them what to do, hate the status quo, and want out. They like traveling. They admire Peter not just for retiring young but for getting rich with a blog.
Great summary.
And as a Gen-X'er, I see myself getting value from both :)
Post by: DieHard_772 on April 16, 2017, 11:21:13 PM
What I see is, many Bogleheads live the conventional "American Dream": work for 30-40 years, and retire well. What makes them different from the average person is that they are financially literate do-it-yourselvers, risk averse and believe in a long-term buy and hold strategy of low-cost index funds (ie Vanguard). Just my impression that the composite successful Boglehead probably invested 10-20% of their income for 30 years, maxed out their 401ks, maybe lived below their means by spendy standards, ended up with $2 million in their portfolios, and plan on spending $60k+ every year for the rest of their lives.
Great people who are very smart about money and enjoying life. Unlike Mustachians, they go out to lunch every time they meet, and spend at least $20.
But not averse to meeting at a library :)
I'm grateful to Bogleheads because they introduced me to Mr. Money Moustache.
Post by: DieHard_772 on April 16, 2017, 11:23:56 PM
I have posted a bit on Bogleheads because I think they have a better sampling of older folks with more complicated tax situations. MMM has a heavy focus on younger people and on minimizing past what I consider a balance point.
I find the discussions on MMM to be more engaging though and the journal section is really nice.
I relate. I get value from both.
Post by: surfhb on April 17, 2017, 12:08:17 AM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Chairman on April 17, 2017, 12:11:38 AM
I think they have to because the site is officially run by a nonprofit, so all discussion has to be on-topic and further their goal of "financial literacy".I have posted a bit on Bogleheads because I think they have a better sampling of older folks with more complicated tax situations. MMM has a heavy focus on younger people and on minimizing past what I consider a balance point.
I find the discussions on MMM to be more engaging though and the journal section is really nice.
A lot of conversations that are headed in interesting directions at bogleheads get shut down by the mods as off topic and/or violating their rules. The mods here on the MMM forums have a much lighter hand, plus there is an official off topic section.
Post by: force majeure on April 17, 2017, 05:09:06 AM
Post by: Buckeyes1 on April 17, 2017, 07:40:31 AM
Most of the crowd here is young and can only see it through the eyes of emotionless charts and back-testing. It has given me more of a balanced view of things rather than thinking it is a magical money machine without real risk, which can be the attitude here from time to time.
Also, posts by Nisiprius are always a master class in investing and the associated emotions.
Post by: spokey doke on April 17, 2017, 08:18:49 AM
Bogleheads are mostly boomers who seek value. Their parents may have lived through a depression or war. They like their jobs and plan to work many years. Some will retire late, rather than early. They see this as maximizing value. They are very risk-averse and like planning for the worst case scenario. One guy said in a poll he would not retire early with less than $75MM.
MMM are millenials. They don't like working and wish to be free to do their own thing. They hate anyone telling them what to do, hate the status quo, and want out. They like traveling. They admire Peter not just for retiring young but for getting rich with a blog.
Great summary.
And as a Gen-X'er, I see myself getting value from both :)
overlooked...once again
Post by: honeybbq on April 17, 2017, 10:09:13 AM
Bogleheads are mostly boomers who seek value. Their parents may have lived through a depression or war. They like their jobs and plan to work many years. Some will retire late, rather than early. They see this as maximizing value. They are very risk-averse and like planning for the worst case scenario. One guy said in a poll he would not retire early with less than $75MM.
MMM are millenials. They don't like working and wish to be free to do their own thing. They hate anyone telling them what to do, hate the status quo, and want out. They like traveling. They admire Peter not just for retiring young but for getting rich with a blog.
Great summary.
And as a Gen-X'er, I see myself getting value from both :)
Me too. :) I want to retire early but have BH amount of money first. :D
Post by: EnjoyIt on April 17, 2017, 01:32:19 PM
Also, posts by Nisiprius are always a master class in investing and the associated emotions.
If there is ever a reply by Nisiprius, I always stop and read it when perusing a thread. His thinking is unmatched on that site.
Post by: ysette9 on April 17, 2017, 01:45:59 PM
Living in a HCOL area and not being totally mustachian, we don't totally fit the average MMM profile. However, the 50%+ savings rate coupled with the strong focus on the prize ("prize" being retire as early as possible) makes me feel like I fit in better here. The thing I appreciate best about the MMM forums is the constant reminder to be thoughtful about your spending and therefore your larger goals, and make sure your spending aligns with what brings you joy. I don't see any consideration of that over at BH. It feels like they are about maximizing $ whereas MMM is about maximizing life joy.
Post by: OurTown on April 17, 2017, 03:02:21 PM
Post by: FireHiker on April 17, 2017, 03:34:54 PM
Post by: mistershankly on April 17, 2017, 03:45:32 PM
MMM are millenials. They don't like working and wish to be free to do their own thing. They hate anyone telling them what to do, hate the status quo, and want out. They like traveling. They admire Peter not just for retiring young but for getting rich with a blog.
Great summary.
And as a Gen-X'er, I see myself getting value from both :)
As Gen-Xers, I think we're different from the rest. We don't like working and wish to be free to do our own thing. We hate anyone telling us what to do, hate the status quo, and want out. We also love traveling. We see Pete as the return of entrepreneurship and independence that counters the wave of post-industrial conformity our generation was sold on (but stopped buying into). Wait a minute.... :)
We also saw stock market meltdowns, had our brothers and sisters hauled off to war in the middle east, saw some incredible world events play out in real-time, and were labeled as lazy and lacking ambition. Wait a minute, again... :)
I think the MMM crowd and Bogleheads both have some amazing wisdom that we all can appreciate.
Post by: rpr on April 17, 2017, 04:00:10 PM
I like the Bogleheads & I have directed a number of people to their Wiki.Indeed, if a friend or colleague comes to me and asks for retirement help/advice, I will first direct them to the bogleheads wiki and forum. I also send them a link to the Bogleheads guides at the library. The advice is fairly more mainstream and most people tend to be more receptive to it. If however, I meet someone younger who looks for advice on retiring early, then I send them to the MMM website as well.
Post by: AdrianC on April 17, 2017, 08:07:28 PM
What I do appreciate about Bogleheads is that the crowd is much older than me and been there, done that with respect to the stock market. It's interesting to listen to them talk about what it was really like to go through various crashes and periods of deep economic uncertainty.
Most of the crowd here is young and can only see it through the eyes of emotionless charts and back-testing. It has given me more of a balanced view of things rather than thinking it is a magical money machine without real risk, which can be the attitude here from time to time.
Also, posts by Nisiprius are always a master class in investing and the associated emotions.
+1
I bookmarked his profile and do "search users posts". Always worth reading his stuff.
Post by: rpr on April 17, 2017, 08:16:07 PM
Good one :DBogleheads are mostly boomers who seek value. Their parents may have lived through a depression or war. They like their jobs and plan to work many years. Some will retire late, rather than early. They see this as maximizing value. They are very risk-averse and like planning for the worst case scenario. One guy said in a poll he would not retire early with less than $75MM.
MMM are millenials. They don't like working and wish to be free to do their own thing. They hate anyone telling them what to do, hate the status quo, and want out. They like traveling. They admire Peter not just for retiring young but for getting rich with a blog.
Great summary.
And as a Gen-X'er, I see myself getting value from both :)
overlooked...once again
Post by: maizefolk on April 17, 2017, 08:21:33 PM
MMM are millenials. They don't like working and wish to be free to do their own thing. They hate anyone telling them what to do, hate the status quo, and want out. They like traveling. They admire Peter not just for retiring young but for getting rich with a blog.
Great summary.
And as a Gen-X'er, I see myself getting value from both :)
As Gen-Xers, I think we're different from the rest. We don't like working and wish to be free to do our own thing. We hate anyone telling us what to do, hate the status quo, and want out. We also love traveling. We see Pete as the return of entrepreneurship and independence that counters the wave of post-industrial conformity our generation was sold on (but stopped buying into). Wait a minute.... :)
We also saw stock market meltdowns, had our brothers and sisters hauled off to war in the middle east, saw some incredible world events play out in real-time, and were labeled as lazy and lacking ambition. Wait a minute, again... :)
I think the MMM crowd and Bogleheads both have some amazing wisdom that we all can appreciate.
It's almost like generalizations used to describe whole generations of people could apply equally well to any group of people! But of course that's crazy talk. ;-)
Post by: FiveSigmas on April 17, 2017, 11:06:45 PM
Also, posts by Nisiprius are always a master class in investing and the associated emotions.
If there is ever a reply by Nisiprius, I always stop and read it when perusing a thread. His thinking is unmatched on that site.
Glad I'm not the only Nisi fan around here. He always has an interesting take on matters that's often surprising and new to me. He's also old enough to have seen a lot and accumulated a great deal of wisdom. One of my favorite posts of his:
https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=79939
Post by: rpr on April 17, 2017, 11:12:49 PM
Thanks for posting that link. Indeed, that is a favorite of mine as well.Also, posts by Nisiprius are always a master class in investing and the associated emotions.
If there is ever a reply by Nisiprius, I always stop and read it when perusing a thread. His thinking is unmatched on that site.
Glad I'm not the only Nisi fan around here. He always has an interesting take on matters that's often surprising and new to me. He's also old enough to have seen a lot and accumulated a great deal of wisdom. One of my favorite posts of his:
https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=79939
Post by: Chairman on April 17, 2017, 11:20:15 PM
Post by: ImCheap on April 18, 2017, 02:20:39 PM
It is a great site with a lot of good people, it was a blessing in disguise getting the boot, I spent way to much time typing on BH, learned a lot and think I passed on a bunch. I still read many of the threads today.
I do wonder however when you look at some of those high post counts, the ones who seem to post everyday if they have a life outside of Bogleheads. Don't get me wrong, the post are great and mostly well thought out but man it has to a 8-10hour gig everyday.
Edited, removed nasty government comment, apologize to who may have took offense..
Post by: surfhb on April 18, 2017, 02:41:44 PM
Another BH asked a question about if he or she thought a toy rental service for their kid made sense. I just about lost it.
BH for investing
MMM for lifestyle
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: ImCheap on April 18, 2017, 08:55:21 PM
I was booted for inciting hostility towards other members.
Another BH asked a question about if he or she thought a toy rental service for their kid made sense. I just about lost it.
BH for investing
MMM for lifestyle
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I recall that one!
Post by: Laserjet3051 on April 19, 2017, 10:03:07 AM
Nisiprius is great. I also like Kevin M, KlangFool, livesoft, and many others.
Agreed. Some truly brilliant minds on BH. Funny, I find myself getting closer and closer to BH over time.
Many of the older posters on BH have the wisdom one gets from time; having gone through many business cycles that one cannot have as a young investor. One of the [paraphrased] sayings I picked up on BH that rings true is: When the tide goes out, we will see who is swimming naked.
(Some 100% equity warriors may in fact find out that they overestimated their risk tolerance)
Post by: Paul der Krake on April 19, 2017, 10:45:13 AM
I think that's a natural progression for any maturing investor. I used to scoff at the threads of people with a 50/50 allocation or discussing annuities. Now that I'm more established I see value in not blindly recommending 100% VTSAX to everyone. The collective wisdom of people with decades of experience is something that's missing here on MMM.Nisiprius is great. I also like Kevin M, KlangFool, livesoft, and many others.
Agreed. Some truly brilliant minds on BH. Funny, I find myself getting closer and closer to BH over time.
Many of the older posters on BH have the wisdom one gets from time; having gone through many business cycles that one cannot have as a young investor. One of the [paraphrased] sayings I picked up on BH that rings true is: When the tide goes out, we will see who is swimming naked.
(Some 100% equity warriors may in fact find out that they overestimated their risk tolerance)
One of the greatest things about the BH forums is that it's been around for a long time, and even longer if you're willing to do some archeology in the old diehards posts. It's fascinating to go back and read posts from people discussing market conditions from back when I was in middle school, knowing what ended up happening.
Post by: DieHard_772 on April 19, 2017, 11:23:42 AM
I think that's a natural progression for any maturing investor. I used to scoff at the threads of people with a 50/50 allocation or discussing annuities. Now that I'm more established I see value in not blindly recommending 100% VTSAX to everyone. The collective wisdom of people with decades of experience is something that's missing here on MMM.Nisiprius is great. I also like Kevin M, KlangFool, livesoft, and many others.
Agreed. Some truly brilliant minds on BH. Funny, I find myself getting closer and closer to BH over time.
Many of the older posters on BH have the wisdom one gets from time; having gone through many business cycles that one cannot have as a young investor. One of the [paraphrased] sayings I picked up on BH that rings true is: When the tide goes out, we will see who is swimming naked.
(Some 100% equity warriors may in fact find out that they overestimated their risk tolerance)
One of the greatest things about the BH forums is that it's been around for a long time, and even longer if you're willing to do some archeology in the old diehards posts. It's fascinating to go back and read posts from people discussing market conditions from back when I was in middle school, knowing what ended up happening.
Very good point.
Everyone has something of value to offer... many Bogleheads have been investing for 10, 20, 30 years or longer... never underestimate the value of accumulated experience!
Post by: RedditLocked on April 19, 2017, 04:42:37 PM
I first visited Bogleheads about five years ago. I was out of my league. I posted I'd like to FIRE on about $100 a day. Needless to say i was laughed off the site. At the time I had about enough saved to draw $100 a day with 4% withdrawal. They were right in my case, $100 a day isn't enough for us to retire comfortably in the US. Working towards $200 a day. I still have an account at Bogleheads, i can almost belong now.
You can't retire comfortably with $36000/yr? I guess it depends on your definition of comfortable, but MMM lives under 30k with a household of three, doesn't he?
Post by: TomTX on April 19, 2017, 08:35:00 PM
$20 on lunch - are you crazy? lol.
Is that collectively, or $20 EACH?
Post by: Bateaux on April 19, 2017, 10:42:33 PM
I first visited Bogleheads about five years ago. I was out of my league. I posted I'd like to FIRE on about $100 a day. Needless to say i was laughed off the site. At the time I had about enough saved to draw $100 a day with 4% withdrawal. They were right in my case, $100 a day isn't enough for us to retire comfortably in the US. Working towards $200 a day. I still have an account at Bogleheads, i can almost belong now.
You can't retire comfortably with $36000/yr? I guess it depends on your definition of comfortable, but MMM lives under 30k with a household of three, doesn't he?
My post FIRE lifestyle will possibly exceed my preFIRE. I'm saving a huge amount of money right now and have for a very long time. I'm in my Mustacian phase now in order to spend,more time and money in the future. It's up to individuals when they choose to FIRE. Some when they reach minimum sustainability, some when a part time gig can support them. For many, we've worked too long at 48. We've far exceeded our minimum level of FIRE. We've exceeded in passive income our take home pay from our jobs. So now our net worth is growing at a rate greater than our take home pay when you add our monthly contributions to the passive gain. MMM himself is making far more now he ever did as a full time worker.
Post by: Lyssa on April 20, 2017, 01:28:54 AM
I'd like to add that I prefer MMM because I find it difficult to relate to a lot of the Bogleheads' view of their wife as an additional child (most likely only in the financial sense and most likely completely the right call against the background of their marriage). While there are some really knowledgable female posters at BH the prevailing attitute and mindset is by far that of an elderly, wealthy, male head of the family providing for the rest.
Not wrong for them, just too far removed from my reality.
The Mustachians who are married or in a committed relationship seem to view their spouse as capable of pulling their own weight and more than that if necessary.
Post by: Bateaux on April 20, 2017, 03:58:11 AM
Agreed with everything above.
I'd like to add that I prefer MMM because I find it difficult to relate to a lot of the Bogleheads' view of their wife as an additional child (most likely only in the financial sense and most likely completely the right call against the background of their marriage). While there are some really knowledgable female posters at BH the prevailing attitute and mindset is by far that of an elderly, wealthy, male head of the family providing for the rest.
Not wrong for them, just too far removed from my reality.
The Mustachians who are married or in a committed relationship seem to view their spouse as capable of pulling their own weight and more than that if necessary.
Unfortunately the same attitude has carried down to many younger people in this country. I'd hoped that younger generations would be more progressive. The reality is that most aren't.
Post by: Fomerly known as something on April 20, 2017, 04:49:17 AM
Agreed with everything above.
I'd like to add that I prefer MMM because I find it difficult to relate to a lot of the Bogleheads' view of their wife as an additional child (most likely only in the financial sense and most likely completely the right call against the background of their marriage). While there are some really knowledgable female posters at BH the prevailing attitute and mindset is by far that of an elderly, wealthy, male head of the family providing for the rest.
Not wrong for them, just too far removed from my reality.
The Mustachians who are married or in a committed relationship seem to view their spouse as capable of pulling their own weight and more than that if necessary.
Unfortunately the same attitude has carried down to many younger people in this country. I'd hoped that younger generations would be more progressive. The reality is that most aren't.
Yes, I get questions all the time about how did I get so good with money. And hear comments about how yeah but my wife will spend it.
Post by: TomTX on April 20, 2017, 05:46:36 AM
I first visited Bogleheads about five years ago. I was out of my league. I posted I'd like to FIRE on about $100 a day. Needless to say i was laughed off the site. At the time I had about enough saved to draw $100 a day with 4% withdrawal. They were right in my case, $100 a day isn't enough for us to retire comfortably in the US. Working towards $200 a day. I still have an account at Bogleheads, i can almost belong now.
You can't retire comfortably with $36000/yr? I guess it depends on your definition of comfortable, but MMM lives under 30k with a household of three, doesn't he?
More like $25k, but with a fully paid-for house, low property taxes, low utilities (due to usage, great insulation, reasonable climate and appliance efficiency) - and some travel/vehicles paid by the blog (or outright freebies like an e-bike, IIRC) and not counted in his total. Heck, he dumped homeowner's insurance as well.
If I subtract out to get an equivalent cost, I'm at that cost level. As it is, I'm paying mortgage, property tax, more on utilities*, insurance, etc on top.
*Insulation, appliances, etc for me are tolerable, but not nearly as efficient as they could be.
Post by: jim555 on April 23, 2017, 06:35:37 AM
Post by: Undecided on April 23, 2017, 03:47:33 PM
Agreed with everything above.
I'd like to add that I prefer MMM because I find it difficult to relate to a lot of the Bogleheads' view of their wife as an additional child (most likely only in the financial sense and most likely completely the right call against the background of their marriage). While there are some really knowledgable female posters at BH the prevailing attitute and mindset is by far that of an elderly, wealthy, male head of the family providing for the rest.
Not wrong for them, just too far removed from my reality.
The Mustachians who are married or in a committed relationship seem to view their spouse as capable of pulling their own weight and more than that if necessary.
I don't disagree with your observation, but many topics are covered in much greater depth on the Bogleheads forum than here, and I found that once I leaned to disregard the tilt of the posters' presumptions and individual circumstances, there was still much to learn. Then again, I don't share the prevailing "reality" here, either, but also find this site helpful.
Post by: lordmetroid on April 23, 2017, 04:32:33 PM
Buy & Hold is more like Buy & Prey, the market can go similar ways as Japan or 1930. It is not something I could live with.
Post by: EnjoyIt on April 23, 2017, 04:45:41 PM
I am not a Buy & Hold kind of guy. I manage my risk by reacting to the current trend and sell all assets before they depreciate too much. Then when the trend has shifted in favor of appreciating prizes, I buy again. I will never time the perfect bottom or top and my yield may be lower than an index-follower for any given year but that is the price to pay for the lower risk.
Buy & Hold is more like Buy & Prey, the market can go similar ways as Japan or 1930. It is not something I could live with.
So are you holding, buying or selling right now? Is the market close to its top or do we have more room to grow?
Many people and economists have been saying for years that the market is overvalued yet the market has continued to grow.
Research shows that people who try and time the tops and bottoms miss out on significant gains and fall short of the buy and prey you described. Your money and your choice, I just wanted to ask some questions and share some facts.
Post by: undercover on April 23, 2017, 06:55:47 PM
I am not a Buy & Hold kind of guy. I manage my risk by reacting to the current trend and sell all assets before they depreciate too much. Then when the trend has shifted in favor of appreciating prizes, I buy again. I will never time the perfect bottom or top and my yield may be lower than an index-follower for any given year but that is the price to pay for the lower risk.
Buy & Hold is more like Buy & Prey, the market can go similar ways as Japan or 1930. It is not something I could live with.
You missed April Fools by like 22 days.
Post by: Dicey on April 24, 2017, 02:44:53 AM
LOL!I am not a Buy & Hold kind of guy. I manage my risk by reacting to the current trend and sell all assets before they depreciate too much. Then when the trend has shifted in favor of appreciating prizes, I buy again. I will never time the perfect bottom or top and my yield may be lower than an index-follower for any given year but that is the price to pay for the lower risk.
Buy & Hold is more like Buy & Prey, the market can go similar ways as Japan or 1930. It is not something I could live with.
You missed April Fools by like 22 days.
Post by: TomTX on April 24, 2017, 05:35:03 AM
Agreed with everything above.
I'd like to add that I prefer MMM because I find it difficult to relate to a lot of the Bogleheads' view of their wife as an additional child (most likely only in the financial sense and most likely completely the right call against the background of their marriage). While there are some really knowledgable female posters at BH the prevailing attitute and mindset is by far that of an elderly, wealthy, male head of the family providing for the rest.
Not wrong for them, just too far removed from my reality.
The Mustachians who are married or in a committed relationship seem to view their spouse as capable of pulling their own weight and more than that if necessary.
I don't disagree with your observation, but many topics are covered in much greater depth on the Bogleheads forum than here, and I found that once I leaned to disregard the tilt of the posters' presumptions and individual circumstances, there was still much to learn. Then again, I don't share the prevailing "reality" here, either, but also find this site helpful.
Agreed, Bogleheads tend to have a great wealth of information available and typically can go more in depth than MMM.
...which actually reflects the (general) attitude toward money.
MMM: Once you have enough, you can pull the ripcord.
Bogleheads: Mmmm... better get some more to be safe. And some more to be really safe. And some more to leave a Legacy.
;)
Post by: jim555 on April 24, 2017, 07:08:07 AM
MMM: Once you have enough, you can pull the ripcord.To me leaving a legacy represents a failure in planning.
Bogleheads: Mmmm... better get some more to be safe. And some more to be really safe. And some more to leave a Legacy.
Post by: h82goslw on April 24, 2017, 09:34:21 AM
I am not a Buy & Hold kind of guy. I manage my risk by reacting to the current trend and sell all assets before they depreciate too much. Then when the trend has shifted in favor of appreciating prizes, I buy again. I will never time the perfect bottom or top and my yield may be lower than an index-follower for any given year but that is the price to pay for the lower risk.
Buy & Hold is more like Buy & Prey, the market can go similar ways as Japan or 1930. It is not something I could live with.
So are you holding, buying or selling right now? Is the market close to its top or do we have more room to grow?
Many people and economists have been saying for years that the market is overvalued yet the market has continued to grow.
Research shows that people who try and time the tops and bottoms miss out on significant gains and fall short of the buy and prey you described. Your money and your choice, I just wanted to ask some questions and share some facts.
Posting to follow Lordmetroid's response as EnjoyIt asked exactly what I was thinking.
Post by: scantee on April 24, 2017, 10:57:47 AM
Agreed with everything above.
I'd like to add that I prefer MMM because I find it difficult to relate to a lot of the Bogleheads' view of their wife as an additional child (most likely only in the financial sense and most likely completely the right call against the background of their marriage). While there are some really knowledgable female posters at BH the prevailing attitute and mindset is by far that of an elderly, wealthy, male head of the family providing for the rest.
Not wrong for them, just too far removed from my reality.
The Mustachians who are married or in a committed relationship seem to view their spouse as capable of pulling their own weight and more than that if necessary.
This is the main reason why I don't spend much time at BH even though I acknowledge that as a whole it's a good site. A man in his late 50's, with an eight-figure net worth, two adult children from his first wife, and three young children from his second wife who is three decades his junior, wondering if he should quit now or keep working another five years to pad an additional $7MM onto his liquid net worth, is living a life so different from my own that it is hard for me to get much out of their advice.
Does BH ban with abandon? I'm surprised by the number of people who say they've been banned from there. I've never been banned from an online space and I'm all of a sudden feeling the loss of that badge of honor. Maybe I need to head over there and stir some shit up...
Post by: Mika M on April 24, 2017, 11:30:35 AM
I've seen the following hierarchy of forum ideologies related to the funds needed to FIRE on other threads, and generally agree:
ERE -- home of the bare minimalists, requires willingness to question EVERYTHING, spend the absolute minimum and probably not live in a mainstream house or apartment
MMM -- mostly serious optimizers/hefty savers, often with savings rates of 50%+, quite a few targeting early retirement in 30s and 40s, often with 3-4% or higher SWRs, given the assumption that additional income streams will come along easily if needed
early-retirement.org -- more mainstream LBYMers, but with higher expenses/lower savings rates, retirement before age 50 is rare and if you plan to do so with higher than a 2-3% SWR people will generally say you are being too risky
Bogleheads -- most mainstream/conservative of the lot, focus on indexing and reducing fees/maximizing wealth growth and not necessarily early retirement. Lots of large nesteggs and very low SWRs.
Nice list. DH and I fall just about in the middle (though probably a bit closer to early-retirement.org in lifestyle and spending levels). We envision being able to eventually live off less than 40k a year but being realistic about our risk-tolerance levels, settled on about 1.5m for our goal number to include a healthy buffer for some of life's surprises. We both have great salaries for very cush and tolerable jobs so we're content to coast for now... (a few years in we've reached about 40% of our goal)
Post by: DieHard_772 on April 24, 2017, 11:43:06 AM
That said, to me it seemed like all they are obsessed with their risk tolerance. The way they discussed it, it started to sound like risk tolerance was some sort of tender, swollen joint that constantly needed to be soothed. I mean come on. Many of the posters there have several million net worth providing a margin of safety far exceeding anything they will need in their lifetimes. At a certain point they are really just indulging their emotions and nothing more.
Yeah, my experience with Bogleheads is that they are very sensitive to risk tolerance... Yet I found this very refreshing, because I find it a useful tool to keep in mind when it comes to investing.
Also, many Bogleheads are older, and your mindset can shift as you start to get away from wealth accumulation and be in the spending period.
I'm grateful to Bogleheads because it has taught me a lot of what I know. They are even responsible for me knowing about MMM.
Post by: hucktard on April 24, 2017, 12:39:27 PM
$500K net worth is only ~$20K a year which seems doable for a single person, but really tight for even two people if you have to pay rent or a mortgage.
Post by: OurTown on April 24, 2017, 12:57:23 PM
$2,000 per month expenses = $600,000 stache.
$3,000 per month expenses = $900,000 stache.
$4,000 per month expenses = $1,200,000 stache.
And so on.
I like the Bogleheads just fine, but they do seem to have a more expensive standard of living than I will ever need. If the average Joe six-pack Boglehead need $3M to retire, I guess his expenses are $10K per month?
Post by: fuzzy math on April 24, 2017, 01:56:17 PM
They admire Peter
Woah, why so formal? (Freaks the millenials out)
:p I seriously had to stop for a moment and recognize that it's Pete's full name
Post by: Travis on April 24, 2017, 02:29:24 PM
I enjoyed many years on BH, contributed a fair bit as well. But.........I got the boot.
It is a great site with a lot of good people, it was a blessing in disguise getting the boot, I spent way to much time typing on BH, learned a lot and think I passed on a bunch. I still read many of the threads today.
I do wonder however when you look at some of those high post counts, the ones who seem to post everyday if they have a life outside of Bogleheads. Don't get me wrong, the post are great and mostly well thought out but man it has to a 8-10hour gig everyday.
Edited, removed nasty government comment, apologize to who may have took offense..
When I got started here I was referred to BH in order to sort out my criminally complex actively-managed portfolio. The depth of the technical information for index investing, taxes, and other financial matters is definitely there. I try to spend time over there just perusing the topics, but I can't keep up. I would have to spend the bulk of my day just on the forum to read it all. Here our community is small enough that I can find what I'm looking for (technical information and entertainment) with no more than a couple hours a day (and usually less).
Post by: StockBeard on April 24, 2017, 02:43:34 PM
Anyone on here agree that 500K is not a lot of money? Thats what I was told.I disagree, but I guess it depends how the question was asked.
Does 500K bring you FI? Not for some people.
But does that amount bring you significantly closer to FI? YES! If your target is 5M, which frankly is a lot, this puts you 10% closer to your goal. That's insanely good. If you're more mustachian and target something between 500k and 1M, that's more than halfway there!
I actually had the same discussion with a good friend, who told me: "you and I both know that 1 million dollars is nothing". I strongly disagreed with him and went on explaining that even with the most lavish lifestyle he could think of, if he received $1million tomorrow, this would literally shave decades of work time for him.
Personally, I consider any number representing more than 1% of my target as huge.
So, yes, 500K is a lot. Unless your target is more than 50 millions.
Post by: DieHard_772 on April 24, 2017, 03:45:28 PM
Personally, I consider any number representing more than 1% of my target as huge.
Hmm, good point, I like it.
Post by: lordmetroid on April 24, 2017, 03:49:03 PM
I am holding right now and have been holding since Brexit(2016-06-24). I do not try to forecast the market, I have no idea where the market is going tomorrow or a year from now. I only react to the market, I do not try to time the tops and bottoms, I do not need to make money all the time and I will not get all available gains. If prices depreciate to my exit level I will sell my current position.I am not a Buy & Hold kind of guy. I manage my risk by reacting to the current trend and sell all assets before they depreciate too much. Then when the trend has shifted in favor of appreciating prizes, I buy again. I will never time the perfect bottom or top and my yield may be lower than an index-follower for any given year but that is the price to pay for the lower risk.
Buy & Hold is more like Buy & Prey, the market can go similar ways as Japan or 1930. It is not something I could live with.
So are you holding, buying or selling right now? Is the market close to its top or do we have more room to grow?
Many people and economists have been saying for years that the market is overvalued yet the market has continued to grow.
Research shows that people who try and time the tops and bottoms miss out on significant gains and fall short of the buy and prey you described. Your money and your choice, I just wanted to ask some questions and share some facts.
Trading is not for everybody but it suits my personality better than buy & hold.
Post by: surfhb on April 24, 2017, 07:00:10 PM
I am holding right now and have been holding since Brexit(2016-06-24). I do not try to forecast the market, I have no idea where the market is going tomorrow or a year from now. I only react to the market, I do not try to time the tops and bottoms, I do not need to make money all the time and I will not get all available gains. If prices depreciate to my exit level I will sell my current position.I am not a Buy & Hold kind of guy. I manage my risk by reacting to the current trend and sell all assets before they depreciate too much. Then when the trend has shifted in favor of appreciating prizes, I buy again. I will never time the perfect bottom or top and my yield may be lower than an index-follower for any given year but that is the price to pay for the lower risk.
Buy & Hold is more like Buy & Prey, the market can go similar ways as Japan or 1930. It is not something I could live with.
So are you holding, buying or selling right now? Is the market close to its top or do we have more room to grow?
Many people and economists have been saying for years that the market is overvalued yet the market has continued to grow.
Research shows that people who try and time the tops and bottoms miss out on significant gains and fall short of the buy and prey you described. Your money and your choice, I just wanted to ask some questions and share some facts.
Trading is not for everybody but it suits my personality better than buy & hold.
Can I ask your age, how long you have been trading and what your ROI is at this point?
Post by: EnjoyIt on April 24, 2017, 07:57:14 PM
I am holding right now and have been holding since Brexit(2016-06-24). I do not try to forecast the market, I have no idea where the market is going tomorrow or a year from now. I only react to the market, I do not try to time the tops and bottoms, I do not need to make money all the time and I will not get all available gains. If prices depreciate to my exit level I will sell my current position.I am not a Buy & Hold kind of guy. I manage my risk by reacting to the current trend and sell all assets before they depreciate too much. Then when the trend has shifted in favor of appreciating prizes, I buy again. I will never time the perfect bottom or top and my yield may be lower than an index-follower for any given year but that is the price to pay for the lower risk.
Buy & Hold is more like Buy & Prey, the market can go similar ways as Japan or 1930. It is not something I could live with.
So are you holding, buying or selling right now? Is the market close to its top or do we have more room to grow?
Many people and economists have been saying for years that the market is overvalued yet the market has continued to grow.
Research shows that people who try and time the tops and bottoms miss out on significant gains and fall short of the buy and prey you described. Your money and your choice, I just wanted to ask some questions and share some facts.
Trading is not for everybody but it suits my personality better than buy & hold.
May I ask what yu did in 2011 when the markets tanked 15%? Did you sell or did you continue buying?
How much does the market have to go down before you choose to sell?
How much more does it have to go down before you buy again?
Post by: Reynold on April 25, 2017, 08:48:00 AM
You can't retire comfortably with $36000/yr? I guess it depends on your definition of comfortable, but MMM lives under 30k with a household of three, doesn't he?
My recent projections on health care expenses (premiums plus out of pocket) for myself and DW once I no longer have employer provided insurance are about $30k/year. And neither of us has super expensive ongoing issues like cancer or dialysis, that is based on just what we've had going on for the last few years. Both insurance premiums and "stuff that seems to happen with age" for someone in our age bracket seem to be a lot higher than MMM and his family have experienced. So I certainly wouldn't want to retire with only $36k/year of income, no pension and years from Social Security. I also don't want to try to bring our income down to the high subsidy level in retirement, both because we may spend as much or more than we are now with increased travel and because I wouldn't count on the exact Obamacare subsidy system surviving for the next decade. Recent double digit insurance increases in multiple markets, especially rural/LCOL ones, make me think that system isn't stable yet, even aside from political issues.
On the original topic, though, I haven't looked the Bogleheads site as I've tended to be able to get the answers I want here, but I probably should.
Post by: StockBeard on April 25, 2017, 09:36:10 AM
Quote from: Reynold link=topic=72078.msg1527255#msg1527255
My recent projections on health care expenses (premiums plus out of pocket) for myself and DW once I no longer have employer provided insurance are about $30k/year. And neither of us has super expensive ongoing issues like cancer or dialysis, that is based on just what we've had going on for the last few years.
This sounds crazy to me. We paid a total of 13K over the past 12 months for a family of 5(premiums + out of pocket), and that includes a very difficult pregnancy with long hospital stays + a preemie.
I'm not pretending your numbers are inaccurate, I have to assume my employer's plan is really good? Either way, glad to be moving to a country with ok health insurance soon.
Post by: Gin1984 on April 25, 2017, 11:00:17 AM
Between my employer and myself, my HDHP with an OOPM of $5000 and deductible of $2600 is $16,000/year.Quote from: Reynold link=topic=72078.msg1527255#msg1527255
My recent projections on health care expenses (premiums plus out of pocket) for myself and DW once I no longer have employer provided insurance are about $30k/year. And neither of us has super expensive ongoing issues like cancer or dialysis, that is based on just what we've had going on for the last few years.
This sounds crazy to me. We paid a total of 13K over the past 12 months for a family of 5(premiums + out of pocket), and that includes a very difficult pregnancy with long hospital stays + a preemie.
I'm not pretending your numbers are inaccurate, I have to assume my employer's plan is really good? Either way, glad to be moving to a country with ok health insurance soon.
Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk
Post by: Quillson on April 25, 2017, 12:17:52 PM
https://www.valuepenguin.com/how-age-affects-health-insurance-costs
These numbers are average, my state happens to be higher. So without subsidies for a 64 year old, $600/month each and $6,000 deductibles and $12,000 OOP, so $26,400/year.
Then Trumpcare was increasing the max for a 64 year old from 3 times the 21 year old rate, which is the limit for Obamacare, to 5 times. So now $1,000/month each and OOP = $36,000/year. Then you would get $8,000 tax credits so $28,000/year.
We are paying almost nothing for employer provided healthcare.
Post by: maizefolk on April 25, 2017, 12:40:28 PM
When I was calculating the cost of healthcare in our 50s and 60s to determine the effects on total FIRE amount, I used this website, which shows how it currently increases by age.
https://www.valuepenguin.com/how-age-affects-health-insurance-costs
These numbers are average, my state happens to be higher. So without subsidies for a 64 year old, $600/month each and $6,000 deductibles and $12,000 OOP, so $26,400/year.
Then Trumpcare was increasing the max for a 64 year old from 3 times the 21 year old rate, which is the limit for Obamacare, to 5 times. So now $1,000/month each and OOP = $36,000/year. Then you would get $8,000 tax credits so $28,000/year.
We are paying almost nothing for employer provided healthcare.
I don't quite follow your math here. But assuming the plans you are looking at are HSA compatible, the out of pocket maximum is capped at no more than $13,100 for a family. This is entirely separate from the issue if the maximum ratio of premiums between a 21 year old and a 64 year old. If that goes away or is raised, your premiums at 64 might go up, but the OOP max wouldn't.
Also usually at least, the deductible counts towards your out of pocket maximum. So in your first example your maximum spend would be $600*12 = $7200 in premiums + $12,000 OOP so $19,200/year not $26,400. And it's quite possible you wouldn't hit the OOP max every year.
If premiums double after the ratio of 21 year old to 64 year old premiums increases and the insurance company raises your OOP max to the greatest they can have and retain HSA eligibility, that puts you at $1200/month*12= $14,400 in premiums + $13,100 = $27,500. Which is a lot. But still significantly less than $36,000. And again, you may not hit your OOP max every year.
Post by: Bateaux on April 25, 2017, 12:49:35 PM
Post by: Quillson on April 25, 2017, 01:01:11 PM
I don't quite follow your math here.
Sorry, was calculating for 2 people. I was calculating the max expenses for a year. So $600x2x12 + OOP. I just used $12,000 for OOP but I do believe you are right that it's $13k+ for a silver plan.
I really think we would end up paying OOP max most years. Regular diagnostic tests for serious issues that are genetic on both sides of the family add up. It doesn't matter that both of us are incredibly healthy and fit. And surprise for us, most of the genetic issues didn't show up in family members until they were over 50.
Post by: maizefolk on April 25, 2017, 01:08:26 PM
Post by: Laserjet3051 on April 25, 2017, 06:26:59 PM
My whole FIRE plan was amended after the Fall election. Health-care being the primary reason. Time will tell but we've possibly all had years added on to our working life to pay for future health-care
Actually, I expect my health insurance premiums to go down moving forward. Previously, buying a policy on the open market required, under ACA rules, everything along with the kitchen sink to be included/covered. As such requirements slough off, I expect to buy a less expensive policy that meets my family's needs. My premiums are currently >$16,000/year, so with out of pocket costs, $20K/year is a reasonable estimate of total costs. Hoping/expecting that the new path forward allows me the possibility to buy a more practical level of coverage.
Post by: Quillson on April 26, 2017, 07:25:35 AM
My whole FIRE plan was amended after the Fall election. Health-care being the primary reason. Time will tell but we've possibly all had years added on to our working life to pay for future health-care
Yeah, health insurance rates with or without the ACA really take off in your 50s and 60s. But the ACA removed annual and lifetime maximums as well as pre-existing conditions, which helped prevent losing your insurance when sick, or being unable to find coverage later, or even hitting the annual or lifetime maximum during your treatment. It was nice knowing there were subsidies in case of tragedy. We don't like the sounds of high risk pools - they don't sound very stable.
We're uncomfortable pulling the plug on high income until we know we can make it to Medicare - assuming it exists as it does today. We'll have to see where the healthcare discussion goes for now. Because the last thing I want to do while dealing with cancer or stroke in myself or my spouse is to find another source of income to cover higher premiums or loss of coverage. Once Medicare kicks in, we're totally fine.
Sorry to hijack the thread. Although it does explain why I'm leaning more toward the Boglehead numbers now that the ACA safety net may be removed.
Post by: Fishingmn on April 27, 2017, 02:03:03 PM
I don't quite follow your math here.
Sorry, was calculating for 2 people. I was calculating the max expenses for a year. So $600x2x12 + OOP. I just used $12,000 for OOP but I do believe you are right that it's $13k+ for a silver plan.
I really think we would end up paying OOP max most years. Regular diagnostic tests for serious issues that are genetic on both sides of the family add up. It doesn't matter that both of us are incredibly healthy and fit. And surprise for us, most of the genetic issues didn't show up in family members until they were over 50.
You also need to add in costs for dental and vision.
Right now we get no subsidies ages 55,54 and I budget $18k for medical, $1k for dental and $500 for vision. In reality I hope my medical number is $3-5k on the high side but would rather budget on the high side and expected increases in future years.