Author Topic: Did the Great Resignation class of 21-22 just pick the worst time to retire?  (Read 160229 times)

vand

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If you believe that markets tend to be cyclical then its worth noting that we have a very similar number of years between 1907 to 1966 to 2021

Spoooky!  But I can't even begin to imagine what would be cyclical outside of just a rough number of years.

So we have high inflation and no stock market gains now which mirrors the stagflation years - but what was going on in 1907?

Kondratieff cycle theory still has its fans..

vand

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The decennial stock pattern also suggests that the first few years of each decade are probably not the greatest time to retire in comparison to the rest of the decade.



Take these things with a pinch of salt, but you could make a fairly strong argument that this chart clearly shows markets are not a random walk, and there is a strong tendency for markets to go down in the early part of the decade, recover, but only start setting new highs in the mid-latter part of the decade.  Famously, years ending in "5" have shown the best returns by far on average.

https://www.seasonax.com/research/dow-jones-10-year-cycle

daverobev

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The most famous book by far from this period is Reminiscences of a Stock Operator, which is the biography of Jesse Livermore, the greatest trader of that era.  Although it's not an "investment" book it well describes those times how you still had bull markets and bear markets, just as you do today.  It's a great read and I would recommend it.

Thanks for the book recommendation.  At $0.49, it's a easy pickup. [Even better, I had a digital credit that made it free]

Available free for everyone on Project Gutenberg https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/60979

nereo

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The decennial stock pattern also suggests that the first few years of each decade are probably not the greatest time to retire in comparison to the rest of the decade.

Take these things with a pinch of salt, but you could make a fairly strong argument that this chart clearly shows markets are not a random walk, and there is a strong tendency for markets to go down in the early part of the decade, recover, but only start setting new highs in the mid-latter part of the decade.  Famously, years ending in "5" have shown the best returns by far on average.

Patterns without apparent drivers are impossible to differentiate from the peculiarities of randomness.
What makes you think that the first few years of each decade will have poor market returns?  Other than “I looked at this chart and think I see a pattern”. Patterns can fool you, that’s a primary reason for statistics.

Here’s an alternate theory - it’s just noise.  The ‘first year in a decade’ is almost entirely attributable to the fact that three of the biggest crashes occurred in 2000, 2020 and October 1929 (bleeding into 1930).  Unless you are making a compelling case why those three are linked, an alternative hypothesis is simply that 3 of the 5 just happened to fall on two of the ten possible years in a decade. 

So what’s the driver?

vand

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The decennial stock pattern also suggests that the first few years of each decade are probably not the greatest time to retire in comparison to the rest of the decade.

Take these things with a pinch of salt, but you could make a fairly strong argument that this chart clearly shows markets are not a random walk, and there is a strong tendency for markets to go down in the early part of the decade, recover, but only start setting new highs in the mid-latter part of the decade.  Famously, years ending in "5" have shown the best returns by far on average.

Patterns without apparent drivers are impossible to differentiate from the peculiarities of randomness.
What makes you think that the first few years of each decade will have poor market returns?  Other than “I looked at this chart and think I see a pattern”. Patterns can fool you, that’s a primary reason for statistics.

Here’s an alternate theory - it’s just noise.  The ‘first year in a decade’ is almost entirely attributable to the fact that three of the biggest crashes occurred in 2000, 2020 and October 1929 (bleeding into 1930).  Unless you are making a compelling case why those three are linked, an alternative hypothesis is simply that 3 of the 5 just happened to fall on two of the ten possible years in a decade. 

So what’s the driver?

The driver could just simply be the way how people think of history and their lives in discrete calendar decades.  The war-torn 1940s, the rebuilding of the 50s, the swinging 60s etc. As the calendar flips over to a new decade it could be that people are more apprehensive about things than they were a year or two ago at the tail end of the last decade, and it takes a few years for the decade to define itself and for people to understand and feel comfortable with the world, then by the middle of the decade everyone has found their feet, and they feel like they know what the next few years is going to be about, and they become more confident and their risk appetite grows.

You are right, it could just be noise, but the more data we have and the longer the pattern is still visible refutes that theory.

AlanStache

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The decennial stock pattern also suggests that the first few years of each decade are probably not the greatest time to retire in comparison to the rest of the decade.



Take these things with a pinch of salt, but you could make a fairly strong argument that this chart clearly shows markets are not a random walk, and there is a strong tendency for markets to go down in the early part of the decade, recover, but only start setting new highs in the mid-latter part of the decade.  Famously, years ending in "5" have shown the best returns by far on average.

https://www.seasonax.com/research/dow-jones-10-year-cycle

I really try not to be one of those "you need error bars!!!1!!11!!" internet peoples but really here I cant look at that chart knowing it reduces a dozen data sets to one line without wanting to see some of the range of scatter.  Candlestick or swarmchart/Violin plot would have shown the ranges better.

maizefolk

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I think this is just an inherently misleading kind of chart. It plots cumulative returns throughout the decade. That means the same percentage return in year 9 will look bigger than in year 1, because by year 9 the total value of the portfolio is larger. A move from 150->135 (15 y-axis units on the graph) reflects the same change in stock market values as a move from 100->90 (10 y-axis units on the graph)

You can see this even more obviously if we plot each decade separately.



Things look much noiser at the end of the decade and much more clustered at the beginning but that isn't telling you anything about actual patterns in stock market returns, just that total cumulative investment returns over a decade diverge more than total returns over a year.

AlanStache

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Taking each year independently it looks like mid decade is best, still probably all just random noise. 



Top plot shows all data from 1928, bottom plot removes the best and worst year.  (1928 data source was the first hit in google.)

maizefolk

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Yup, that's a way better visualization! Thanks for pulling it together and crunching the numbers, @AlanStache.

AlanStache

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Yup, that's a way better visualization! Thanks for pulling it together and crunching the numbers, @AlanStache.

thanks.  I suspected you would be making a plot too, but what are you doing up this early - you had best not be doing email for BPU?  :-)

Crazy how easy this data stuff gets with some experience.

maizefolk

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Crazy how easy this data stuff gets with some experience.

I know what you mean. Data wrangling and data vis starts to feel a little like a superpower. Why argue over what the pattern might be when one can just look and see.

Had to give a talk at a school on the east coast (not BPU thankfully) so my alarm went off at 6 AM local time and it was either write python code or sit around getting virtual stage jitters.

eyesonthehorizon

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That’ll teach me to remember the risk of posting in a busy thread when I’ll be offline for a holiday weekend is I may return to find a bunch of role models popped in to comment.

Though I did get to read the first fifth or so of Range, so thanks @Malcat for that! I read that first post, grumbled face-in-hands for a bit (because of course you're right), had ice cream, read it again, logged off, checked out the book. Sampling essentially requires me to let go of my safety net day job, which is the truth I’ve been railing against for a few years now. Getting any job was miserably hard to start with; I've invested a lot of time & far too much of myself in that ladder. The prospect that starting over might feel anything like the first time makes me simply not want to do it, hence the belief until lately I had to work at full steam in the current career (where I am that indispensable workhorse you speak of) or not at all. But of course, it’s a fundamentally different thing to be unemployed, try & fail at a few new pursuits as a lark, while the bills are all or nearly covered, with savings to draw on, than it was while staring down the barrel of student debt on an empty stomach. There's no comparison! Yet the fear feels the same, despite an entirely new threat: the sense of having something to lose. (Intellectual knowledge is not tantamount to emotional realization....)

@clifp - yes! it’s awful, the sense of giving up so much (perceived?) influence over your future. My company isn’t nearly so friendly toward time off (they call it “resignation”) but seems something most people would benefit from. The vicarious relief I felt when you mentioned your second was just before the dot-com bust! No consulting opportunities in my line of work, either, so I’m really pulling the plug when I quit, but I think I’d rather pivot if the money didn’t matter. (It does, a bit, at my miniature financial scale.)

@Nords - I have re-read that post more times than I can count, & am in no way surprised it has resonated with so many: it seems to be the majority experience of the workplace in the US! (Coincidentally my hunch is that it’s actually in no small part owed to military influence, specifically post-WWII, “work” being restructured by the public effort to reintegrate servicemen in the civilian sphere.) Orwell wrote that the mob “would be dangerous if they had leisure, it is safer to keep them too busy to think” - add its twin prong of consumerism & we get our host’s raison d’etre, because honestly: who’s happy with this arrangement? The system is, I think, under selection pressure to preclude or at least resist balance.

Maizefolk & AlanStache, these visualizations & accompanying discussion are wonderful.

Nords

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@Nords - I have re-read that post more times than I can count, & am in no way surprised it has resonated with so many: it seems to be the majority experience of the workplace in the US!
Thanks again!

For those who are wondering what we're talking about, here's the post at its new home on TheMilitaryWallet:
https://themilitarywallet.com/fog-of-work/

For those who've been around for a while, here's the very first time it saw the light of day.  It can be read at Early-Retirement .org without logging in:
https://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f30/the-fog-of-work-42328.html
At the time, a friend was on his final military duty station.  He was a little frustrated at how busy he was with that work even as he was going to the military's transition seminars and doing all of the other checklist items necessary to separate.  He wondered how workers ever found the time to figure out financial independence, and this post is the result of our e-mails.   

He retired in 2011, right when he planned to.  Today he's enjoying life more than ever.

(TheMilitaryWallet is where most of my posts ended up after Three Creeks Media bought the site from Ryan Guina.  He's still contracted with them for a few hours a week for three more years.  Another 250 of my lifestyle personal-finance posts are at my old 2010 blog, which is hosted on WordPress' free site as MilitaryFinancialIndependence.com. )

AlanStache

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Though I did get to read the first fifth or so of Range, so thanks @Malcat for that! I read that first post, grumbled face-in-hands for a bit (because of course you're right), had ice cream, read it again, logged off, checked out the book. Sampling essentially requires me to let go of my safety net day job, which is the truth I’ve been railing against for a few years now. Getting any job was miserably hard to start with; I've invested a lot of time & far too much of myself in that ladder. The prospect that starting over might feel anything like the first time makes me simply not want to do it, hence the belief until lately I had to work at full steam in the current career (where I am that indispensable workhorse you speak of) or not at all. But of course, it’s a fundamentally different thing to be unemployed, try & fail at a few new pursuits as a lark, while the bills are all or nearly covered, with savings to draw on, than it was while staring down the barrel of student debt on an empty stomach. There's no comparison! Yet the fear feels the same, despite an entirely new threat: the sense of having something to lose. (Intellectual knowledge is not tantamount to emotional realization....)
...

This came up in the last few days.
https://www.artofmanliness.com/character/behavior/podcast-840-when-to-quit/
Generally good podcast - despite the name, more accurately should be "the art of living a good life for all people", but have to get the clicks :-/

Glenstache

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The nerdiness of the last 10 or so posts remind me why I love this forum.

mspym

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Ooo thanks for the podcast link @AlanStache that looks really interesting. AoM used to be in my blogroll but I removed it when I realised it was How to Human but aimed at dudes. Which is not a bad project, and probably a healthier source for advice than redpill forums or Jordan Petersen, but I wasn’t their target audience.

Metalcat

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That’ll teach me to remember the risk of posting in a busy thread when I’ll be offline for a holiday weekend is I may return to find a bunch of role models popped in to comment.

Though I did get to read the first fifth or so of Range, so thanks @Malcat for that! I read that first post, grumbled face-in-hands for a bit (because of course you're right), had ice cream, read it again, logged off, checked out the book. Sampling essentially requires me to let go of my safety net day job, which is the truth I’ve been railing against for a few years now. Getting any job was miserably hard to start with; I've invested a lot of time & far too much of myself in that ladder. The prospect that starting over might feel anything like the first time makes me simply not want to do it, hence the belief until lately I had to work at full steam in the current career (where I am that indispensable workhorse you speak of) or not at all. But of course, it’s a fundamentally different thing to be unemployed, try & fail at a few new pursuits as a lark, while the bills are all or nearly covered, with savings to draw on, than it was while staring down the barrel of student debt on an empty stomach. There's no comparison! Yet the fear feels the same, despite an entirely new threat: the sense of having something to lose. (Intellectual knowledge is not tantamount to emotional realization....)

@clifp - yes! it’s awful, the sense of giving up so much (perceived?) influence over your future. My company isn’t nearly so friendly toward time off (they call it “resignation”) but seems something most people would benefit from. The vicarious relief I felt when you mentioned your second was just before the dot-com bust! No consulting opportunities in my line of work, either, so I’m really pulling the plug when I quit, but I think I’d rather pivot if the money didn’t matter. (It does, a bit, at my miniature financial scale.)

@Nords - I have re-read that post more times than I can count, & am in no way surprised it has resonated with so many: it seems to be the majority experience of the workplace in the US! (Coincidentally my hunch is that it’s actually in no small part owed to military influence, specifically post-WWII, “work” being restructured by the public effort to reintegrate servicemen in the civilian sphere.) Orwell wrote that the mob “would be dangerous if they had leisure, it is safer to keep them too busy to think” - add its twin prong of consumerism & we get our host’s raison d’etre, because honestly: who’s happy with this arrangement? The system is, I think, under selection pressure to preclude or at least resist balance.

Maizefolk & AlanStache, these visualizations & accompanying discussion are wonderful.

Neat stuff, eh?

Come chat in my journal if you want to go over this stuff more. I've been meaning to post about "Range" and the concept of sampling for awhile, but other stuff keeps coming up. There's a lot to unpack in what you've said, and it's something I've posted about many, many times over the years: the concept that finding work is a fundamentally different expereince from what we've been conditioned to think it is through our past experiences of *needing* income.

I compare it to the difference between needing to move urgently, having to find the right house for your needs, and sell your current home to close on the same day vs having no timeline for house buying and virtually no limit on budget.

It's a night and day difference of experience.

But yeah, come chat about it if you want to, there's a lot to unpack there.

eyesonthehorizon

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This came up in the last few days.
https://www.artofmanliness.com/character/behavior/podcast-840-when-to-quit/
Generally good podcast - despite the name, more accurately should be "the art of living a good life for all people", but have to get the clicks :-/
I have read posts from their blog a few times over the years but never the podcast, I will give that a listen. Their "manliness" marketing is exactly in line with Pete's, though, if you've ever heard or listened to him describe why he went with the Mr. Money Mustache persona, so it seems a natural recommendation here!

habanero

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I don't think it's you, I think it's more of a top down management structure kind of thing. Scandinavian companies expect their staff to take full holidays, so they plan for it in management structure.

I work in Scandinavia and we have a hard non-negotioable requirement to take at least two consecutive weeks of every year (out of 5 weeks total vacation). This is generally considered best practise across my industry (not sure about the US...) as it makes sure the bizz can operate without your presence for some time and also because its a way of easier discovering if you're up to some foul play.

We are, as you say, expected to take out the full allotment, but there is a pretty common mecanism where you can roll a limited number of unused vacation days into next year. And oh, new mums disappear for almost a year and new dads for 8-12 weeks without the company exploding as well.

MisterA

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Exactly. Companies in countries with robust vacation culture manage just fine because vacation isn't treated like an inconvenience.
We have lots more holidays than most people in North America, but I wouldn't describe the vacation culture as 'robust'. We just sort of manage when people aren't there, and much of your work is there waiting for you when you return.

Metalcat

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Exactly. Companies in countries with robust vacation culture manage just fine because vacation isn't treated like an inconvenience.
We have lots more holidays than most people in North America, but I wouldn't describe the vacation culture as 'robust'. We just sort of manage when people aren't there, and much of your work is there waiting for you when you return.

Fair enough, but I would call it a hell of a lot more robust than company culture where leave is actively discouraged and treated more like a hard to earn privilege than a right.

But yeah, here in Canada where maternity leave is common, it can be very inconvenient, I shouldn't have said it's not seen as an inconvenience it often is, so I'll retract that, but there *is* a robust cultural expectation that you just figure it out and make it work because we do all the time.

mistymoney

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Taking each year independently it looks like mid decade is best, still probably all just random noise. 



Top plot shows all data from 1928, bottom plot removes the best and worst year.  (1928 data source was the first hit in google.)

Well we could test for that. Eyeballing, seems a pretty robost effect - still, there isn't a causative element - except that proposed by peoples perceptions of new decades - which hardly seems compelling on it's face.

still - it is odd! And the 2's are the lowest!

So - loosely plan for 2025 to be a very good year. :P

nereo

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Taking each year independently it looks like mid decade is best, still probably all just random noise. 



Top plot shows all data from 1928, bottom plot removes the best and worst year.  (1928 data source was the first hit in google.)

Well we could test for that. Eyeballing, seems a pretty robost effect - still, there isn't a causative element - except that proposed by peoples perceptions of new decades - which hardly seems compelling on it's face.

still - it is odd! And the 2's are the lowest!

So - loosely plan for 2025 to be a very good year. :P

One aspect I find fascinating is that all year-combos have slightly better returns when both the best and worst years are removed.

AlanStache

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..
One aspect I find fascinating is that all year-combos have slightly better returns when both the best and worst years are removed.

So is that saying the lows are lower than the highs are high?  guess I could buy that, runaway pessimism being worse than runaway optimism...  Or is it just the math of percent's, after a 25% loss you need more than a 25% gain to get back to where you were?  Can we find someone good at math to answer this /s

mistymoney

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Taking each year independently it looks like mid decade is best, still probably all just random noise. 



Top plot shows all data from 1928, bottom plot removes the best and worst year.  (1928 data source was the first hit in google.)

Well we could test for that. Eyeballing, seems a pretty robost effect - still, there isn't a causative element - except that proposed by peoples perceptions of new decades - which hardly seems compelling on it's face.

still - it is odd! And the 2's are the lowest!

So - loosely plan for 2025 to be a very good year. :P

One aspect I find fascinating is that all year-combos have slightly better returns when both the best and worst years are removed.

but not too terribly surprising either. When the market falls, it can fall hard. and take several years to recoup.

nereo

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Taking each year independently it looks like mid decade is best, still probably all just random noise. 



Top plot shows all data from 1928, bottom plot removes the best and worst year.  (1928 data source was the first hit in google.)

Well we could test for that. Eyeballing, seems a pretty robost effect - still, there isn't a causative element - except that proposed by peoples perceptions of new decades - which hardly seems compelling on it's face.

still - it is odd! And the 2's are the lowest!

So - loosely plan for 2025 to be a very good year. :P

One aspect I find fascinating is that all year-combos have slightly better returns when both the best and worst years are removed.

but not too terribly surprising either. When the market falls, it can fall hard. and take several years to recoup.

The above dataset doesn't factor in the time to recovery.  it's looking at calendar year grouped together, not sequential years.

vand

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Taking each year independently it looks like mid decade is best, still probably all just random noise. 



Top plot shows all data from 1928, bottom plot removes the best and worst year.  (1928 data source was the first hit in google.)

Well we could test for that. Eyeballing, seems a pretty robost effect - still, there isn't a causative element - except that proposed by peoples perceptions of new decades - which hardly seems compelling on it's face.

still - it is odd! And the 2's are the lowest!

So - loosely plan for 2025 to be a very good year. :P

One aspect I find fascinating is that all year-combos have slightly better returns when both the best and worst years are removed.

Not really that surprising when you consider how returns are distributed - the removal of the best years will be more than compensated for by the removal of the worst years, as you are effectively removing the largest historical crashes.


As others have said, great chart from AlanStache. People can draw their own conclusions :)
« Last Edit: October 12, 2022, 02:39:30 PM by vand »

EscapeVelocity2020

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Basically, the market goes down faster than it goes up.  Overall the trajectory is up and to the right, but steep drops along the way…. Unless the Top Is In!  Sorry, couldn’t help myself 🙂

mistymoney

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Taking each year independently it looks like mid decade is best, still probably all just random noise. 



Top plot shows all data from 1928, bottom plot removes the best and worst year.  (1928 data source was the first hit in google.)

Well we could test for that. Eyeballing, seems a pretty robost effect - still, there isn't a causative element - except that proposed by peoples perceptions of new decades - which hardly seems compelling on it's face.

still - it is odd! And the 2's are the lowest!

So - loosely plan for 2025 to be a very good year. :P

One aspect I find fascinating is that all year-combos have slightly better returns when both the best and worst years are removed.

but not too terribly surprising either. When the market falls, it can fall hard. and take several years to recoup.

The above dataset doesn't factor in the time to recovery.  it's looking at calendar year grouped together, not sequential years.

but it would only count one year as the "best" for removal purposes, vs one year decline for the crash

EscapeVelocity2020

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Another interesting visual representation of how 2022 is shaping up vs. 'normal times' -

vand

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Another interesting visual representation of how 2022 is shaping up vs. 'normal times' -

Rather fitting that the Everything Bubble now leads to the Everything Bust - nowhere to run, nowhere to hide.

Tyson

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But what a buying opportunity.  Wish I had more money to throw into the market.

maizefolk

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Another interesting visual representation of how 2022 is shaping up vs. 'normal times' -

Part of me wants to protest that 2022 isn't over yet. But no.

Yes that's a strikingly good visual message EscapeVelocity2020. When bonds and stocks lose value in parallel, it's going to be very bad time to be living off of ones investments (whether it's the worst time or not... well should be interesting to find out over the next couple of decades).

bmjohnson35

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Another interesting visual representation of how 2022 is shaping up vs. 'normal times' -

That is interesting.  Based on the chart, the 2022 conditions are extremely rare in the past. Furthermore, one or both (bonds/stocks) will likely be in the positive in 2023.  I suppose we will found out soon enough.

vand

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Part of the reason 2022 looks so bad is that the stock market peaked at the start of the year.

dividendman

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Part of the reason 2022 looks so bad is that the stock market peaked at the start of the year.

Right when I pulled the retirement plug! Somehow I'm not very bothered. Stocks and bonds are down, yes, but my reverse equity glidepath has a couple of years of cash (included in the bond %) so I haven't sold anything at a low yet. Maybe if this keeps up for a couple of years I'll start to get worried.

BlueMR2

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Part of the reason 2022 looks so bad is that the stock market peaked at the start of the year.

I got nervous right at the end of 2021 as stocks had gotten so high and shifted a little bit more into bonds to balance things out and prepare for the inevitable drop.  Guess it really didn't matter.  :D

It'll be interesting to see how things go.  There's a talking head for every possible outcome.  I'm expecting more of the same to continue into mid 2023 if not through late 2023. 

mistymoney

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Another interesting visual representation of how 2022 is shaping up vs. 'normal times' -

Well, initially, this visual is quite the gut punch!

But wouldn't it have to be a sustained pattern over several years to produce the same effect on a 30 year retirement? so 1969 is in ominous quadrant, but none of the 1970's are - so what exactly is the pattern that produces subpar results over a 30 year time horizon? Even 1 disasterous year isn't the whole picture?

If one year of negative stocks/bonds cast strong ripples downstream - what are those exactly? Just trying to understand what this really means.

And hoping that it isn't an entire decade of stagflation.....

mistymoney

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Another interesting visual representation of how 2022 is shaping up vs. 'normal times' -

Also - I'm going to try to get a discussion on this over on the investor alley sub. I think it deserves - and I would like to hear! - consideration and mitigation ideas.

Morning Glory

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Part of the reason 2022 looks so bad is that the stock market peaked at the start of the year.

I got nervous right at the end of 2021 as stocks had gotten so high and shifted a little bit more into bonds to balance things out and prepare for the inevitable drop.  Guess it really didn't matter.  :D

It'll be interesting to see how things go.  There's a talking head for every possible outcome.  I'm expecting more of the same to continue into mid 2023 if not through late 2023.
Lol. At the end of 2021 I thought I might have worked for too long because my net worth increased by 5% over my fire target while I was finishing a contract.

ATtiny85

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But what a buying opportunity.  Wish I had more money to throw into the market.

Yeah, I hit my 401k max yesterday. Nothing but company match for the rest of the year. Luckily we are in a great position with our taxable account with a good amount going in every month, so I will get some good prices still.

bmjohnson35

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The following article certainly isn't very optimistic. It's one of the more comprehensive articles covering the potential for future stagflation.

https://time.com/6221771/stagflation-crisis-debt-nouriel-roubini/

vand

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So here is the dilemma

How well a retirement portfolio survives depends on two things:

A) The sequence of returns, especially in the early years. This is largely luck of the draw, because as we all know the predicting predicting selloffs and short term movements is the domain of EW practitioners and Youtube gurus.  That said, the most difficult periods for markets typically happen from points of gross overvaluation and expectation, similar to conditions we saw in 2021. They are not totally random, they're just very difficult to nail the exact timing of.

B) The long term returns of the portfolio, provided it is not crippled by the first point

Overall, point A dominates, especially for timeframes of 30yrs or less which most of the research is based off. You can retire in an expensive market and still do absolutely fine provided you aren't unlucky enough to pick the very peak and still have a few years of good returns ahead, as often these extra years will see the portfolio exceed its starting point even account for the withdrawals being made.   What you can't get away with is a horrific sequence straight off the bat, where, as a forced seller in a prolonged bear market, it leaves your capital base diminished to the point that overwhelm its ability to participate enough even when a recovery in the markets come.

Unfortunately, it does now look as if the Dec-2021 retiree pretty much drew the short straw and started their retirement at the point of the largest and most prolonged downturn since the explosion in FIRE popularity when prices and optimism were at their peak, and therefore vulnerability was at its highest.  Bad luck, for sure, but that is sometimes how it goes.

Inflation is driving a lot of the narrative right now and why I think those Dec-2021 are going to be tested even further.

Bonds are still not cheap and not priced to deliver a positive real return.  Economically they are still offering the unenticing prospect of return-free risk.  That may change if inflation can be brough under control, however the latest inflation report is not promising - showing that core inflation is actually rising.  As I said many times on various threads, inflation is a genie that once you let it out may prove far more difficult to put into the bottle than anyone predicts.  If it were easy to keep inflation low, don't you thnk all these other economy that suffer persistently high inflation would just do it?  We saw the first wave of inflation in "things" - good and raw materials, but next wave will come from wages demandsin response to the first wave and will be felt most keenly in "services"... they don't call it a wage-price spiral for nothing.

Stocks will continue to be repriced in response to bonds being repriced in response to inflation continuing to run and run.  Its also inevitable that corporate earnings will fall too, although I suspect much of that will already be priced in by now (more so than inflation imo).

The 3rd point which isn't talked about very much here is the macro, and and the the Fed and US Government may actually be snookered and unable to raise interest rates to a point that would bring inflation under control. Yes, they are raising rates, but how far can they afford to raise them? We ain't in Kansas any more. The US's debt to GDP stands at 120% today. At the start of the stagflation era it stood at under 40%, and in the 1906-07 it was negligable due to being restricted by the gold standard  In standard economic orthodoxy an interest rate below the rate of inflation is still a stimulatory rate - meaning we've been running accomodative monetary poily for most of the last 20 years and continue to do so even today. Under these conditions you disincentivise people to save, therefore it is unreasonble to assume that people will modify their behaviour while there is no incentive for them to reduce their consumption.  Furthermore, when recession hits it a sure thing that tax receipts fall at the same time that public obligations tend to rise. The public finances tend to go south very quickly during such times - as I have already said debt/GDP is at an eyewatering 120% already... who knows what they will demand from the issuer if that number gets pushed higher at a time when your prospects look worse.   

For better or worse, a lot of growth of financial assets in the last 20 years has been due to financial engineering and low interest rates rather than in real productivity gains. When you can borrow at 2-3% and put into a project with an anticipated return of 5% then companies will do that to increase their earnings.  When borrowing costs are 5 or 6%, none of those previous projects are viable and you need a much higher return on capital to justify the go ahead - but all that low hanging fruit is long gone.  That era of disinflation that made it so easy for corporations to continually grow earnings is now gone.

GilesMM

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If the retiree received, like many, a pension lump and large severance payout, they would have plunged those into the market at a "low" (not low enough in my view, btw) and benefited from great timing.  My former boss did this in 2009.  He retired, the market tanked, and he was in tears.  He told me that if the DOW, then around 9,000, ever made it all the way up to 11,000 he would splurge on a fancy tennis club membership for his wife.  He's not crying anymore.

mistymoney

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The following article certainly isn't very optimistic. It's one of the more comprehensive articles covering the potential for future stagflation.

https://time.com/6221771/stagflation-crisis-debt-nouriel-roubini/

thanks for the link. very informative if not too cheerful :/

vand

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Part of the reason 2022 looks so bad is that the stock market peaked at the start of the year.

Right when I pulled the retirement plug! Somehow I'm not very bothered. Stocks and bonds are down, yes, but my reverse equity glidepath has a couple of years of cash (included in the bond %) so I haven't sold anything at a low yet. Maybe if this keeps up for a couple of years I'll start to get worried.

I’m sure that you are aware of all the flaws and criticisms of the cash buffer and how little it holds up to scrutiny, but I guess if it helps you sleep better then there is value in that.

I will though just reiterate that imo a 25x portfolio +2yr cash buffer is just a roundabout way of saying a 27x portfolio with a 7.4% cash allocation with no strict rules on internal asset allocation.

Gremlin

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Right when I pulled the retirement plug! Somehow I'm not very bothered. Stocks and bonds are down, yes, but my reverse equity glidepath has a couple of years of cash (included in the bond %) so I haven't sold anything at a low yet. Maybe if this keeps up for a couple of years I'll start to get worried.

I’m sure that you are aware of all the flaws and criticisms of the cash buffer and how little it holds up to scrutiny, but I guess if it helps you sleep better then there is value in that.

I will though just reiterate that imo a 25x portfolio +2yr cash buffer is just a roundabout way of saying a 27x portfolio with a 7.4% cash allocation with no strict rules on internal asset allocation.

Seriously?!?

Forum Rule Number 1:  Don't be a jerk.

Earlier in this thread you outlined two things for the survival long-term of a portfolio in retirement.  From your own post, the first is surviving a poor sequencing of returns in the first few years of retirement.

@dividendman has just described a pretty decent mechanism that they've actually deployed to try and mitigate this - a reverse equity glide path - and you've responded with a fair dose of snark and arrogance, chirping from the cheap seats. 

I can only suggest that @dividendman enjoys FIRE.  Maybe you will too one day when you get there...

vand

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Right when I pulled the retirement plug! Somehow I'm not very bothered. Stocks and bonds are down, yes, but my reverse equity glidepath has a couple of years of cash (included in the bond %) so I haven't sold anything at a low yet. Maybe if this keeps up for a couple of years I'll start to get worried.

I’m sure that you are aware of all the flaws and criticisms of the cash buffer and how little it holds up to scrutiny, but I guess if it helps you sleep better then there is value in that.

I will though just reiterate that imo a 25x portfolio +2yr cash buffer is just a roundabout way of saying a 27x portfolio with a 7.4% cash allocation with no strict rules on internal asset allocation.

Seriously?!?

Forum Rule Number 1:  Don't be a jerk.

Earlier in this thread you outlined two things for the survival long-term of a portfolio in retirement.  From your own post, the first is surviving a poor sequencing of returns in the first few years of retirement.

@dividendman has just described a pretty decent mechanism that they've actually deployed to try and mitigate this - a reverse equity glide path - and you've responded with a fair dose of snark and arrogance, chirping from the cheap seats. 

I can only suggest that @dividendman enjoys FIRE.  Maybe you will too one day when you get there...

Where's the sarcasm and arrogance?I am just pointing out that cash is not a very problematic firewall.

BeanCounter

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Part of the reason 2022 looks so bad is that the stock market peaked at the start of the year.

Right when I pulled the retirement plug! Somehow I'm not very bothered. Stocks and bonds are down, yes, but my reverse equity glidepath has a couple of years of cash (included in the bond %) so I haven't sold anything at a low yet. Maybe if this keeps up for a couple of years I'll start to get worried.

I’m sure that you are aware of all the flaws and criticisms of the cash buffer and how little it holds up to scrutiny, but I guess if it helps you sleep better then there is value in that.

I will though just reiterate that imo a 25x portfolio +2yr cash buffer is just a roundabout way of saying a 27x portfolio with a 7.4% cash allocation with no strict rules on internal asset allocation.

 @vand I thought your earlier post on the factors surrounding the survivability of a portfolio was a good one. But the above is a bit ridiculous. Sure the cash position is a drag on portfolio performance. But how is it any worse or different than working OMY in 2022. If you retired in 2021 and felt the market was over priced so you built a cash reserve to use for a market downturn, how is that worse than continuing to work while the market is down?

AlanStache

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...
Sure the cash position is a drag on portfolio performance. But how is it any worse or different than working OMY in 2022. If you retired in 2021 and felt the market was over priced so you built a cash reserve to use for a market downturn, how is that worse than continuing to work while the market is down?

Well using cash is a contingency plain against RE failure and there for bad, but OMY is not RE so it cant be a failure of RE so is good!  /s