Declining quality of wood furniture

[MMM98]

Daughter's apartment burned, we gave her our bedroom suite. She can pocket the settlement.  So we are shopping for bedroom furniture, something we do no do often as we bought Amish from the Amish in Michigan. We are in the south now so that is less convenient.

I can spot veneer 10 yards away but I think anyone could identify the lower quality without much effort.  What really surprised me is the Vietnamese furniture is only 30 -40% cheaper than online Amish furniture.  Vietnamese furniture seems to be the dominant player in the stores we visited.  Costco quality (Chinese) was superior in every way but too limited. We will get our order ready for the Amish stuff once we decide on style.

What do you do for wooden (non upholstered) furniture? 

[Le Poisson]

We used to get everything off Freecycle, craigslist, etc. Furniture is an item that goes from thousands of dollars to zero the second it leaves the store. And the stuff being given away is out of style stuff that will last as opposed to the instyle cardboard that is in most stores.

I say we used to get everything used because our last experience with a buggy armchair really had us rethink the whole used furniture scene. We too are at a loss now. I really don't relish paying $1500 for a cardboard couch. I wonder how you fumigate a sofa. Maybe rent a storage locker for a month and set off a few bug bombs in it.

[lizzzi]

I try to only buy where I can actually see the piece--like let's say a floor model in the store that is being sold cheaper. I need a couple new pieces, and am also going to try Amish--have not started looking yet though. I live in an area near the Amish, and I can actually see what I am buying. (Assuming I like it.) I have some wood furniture that came from family, too. Bedbugs can get into wood furniture as well as upholstered, so I'm afraid of second-hand wooden furniture unless I really know the source.

[MrsDinero]

I prefer buying older furniture and refinishing or painting it myself.  I'm sure most antique lovers would kill me over my willingness to take a can of paint to an old piece but for me i love the shapes and sturdiness of old furniture but not the colors (I like white, light grey, or blue accented).

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[GuitarStv]

If you're worried about bed bugs, take your used furniture and wrap it tightly in dark green/black garbage bags, taping up the seams.  Then stick it outside in direct sun on a very hot summer day.  They'll die when the temp gets up to 113° F / 45° C for 15 minutes.

You can do something similar if it gets very cold, but it will take longer to kill them.

[MMM98]

Good point about the bugs.  I saw a televised piece on Vietnamese bunk bed that infested an entire home.  It is amazing the bugs survived the trip over.

[EXLIer]

New furniture these days is utter rubbish.  I try to find quality older used pieces, but they are hard to find out west compared to New England/North East

[I'm a red panda]

As long as you aren't looking for ornate styles, you could always learn to make it yourself.

I have a gorgeous hardwood bedroom set, lovely built in living room cabinets, and up next a dining room set- for a fraction of the retail price, including tool purchase. :)  (Depending on where you live, it isn't easy to find nice woods either though, you do have to search.)

[andy85]

As long as you aren't looking for ornate styles, you could always learn to make it yourself.

I have a gorgeous hardwood bedroom set, lovely built in living room cabinets, and up next a dining room set- for a fraction of the retail price, including tool purchase. :)  (Depending on where you live, it isn't easy to find nice woods either though, you do have to search.)

this is what i do...and if it doesnt turn out perfect you can just call it 'rustic' :)

[I'm a red panda]

As long as you aren't looking for ornate styles, you could always learn to make it yourself.

I have a gorgeous hardwood bedroom set, lovely built in living room cabinets, and up next a dining room set- for a fraction of the retail price, including tool purchase. :)  (Depending on where you live, it isn't easy to find nice woods either though, you do have to search.)

this is what i do...and if it doesnt turn out perfect you can just call it 'rustic' :)

What I make is definitely "rustic", but my husband's stuff doesn't look any different than store bought in the styles he makes them in.  We just don't have a lot of ornate carvings or scrolls.

And it has improved over time as more tools have been purchased. Our first cabinet was made with just a jig saw, now we have a decent (but still needing expansion) woodshop.

[J Boogie]

I too hate particleboard.

If I'm not building it, Craigslist is my go-to.  I search for "room and board" or "room & board" furniture on Craigslist and I always have a good idea of what's a good deal vs what isn't.  I'm a bit of a furniture freak though.  Room and board is basically my favorite large furniture company because of their design plus build quality. 

[MMM98]

As long as you aren't looking for ornate styles, you could always learn to make it yourself.

I have a gorgeous hardwood bedroom set, lovely built in living room cabinets, and up next a dining room set- for a fraction of the retail price, including tool purchase. :)  (Depending on where you live, it isn't easy to find nice woods either though, you do have to search.)

Amish is sold online.  Several sources.  If you are not familiar with Amish construction you might have a hard time trusting that it will be assembled properly, with quality materials.

[MMM98]

I too hate particleboard.
 Room and board is basically my favorite large furniture company because of their design plus build quality.

I can't speak to construction but online pricing is abit higher than the discount online Amish pricing.  Now, marital has its price, so it might not matter one bit.

[PhysicianOnFIRE]

Most of the wood furniture in our home is mid-century modern, built in the 1950's and 60's.  Lane, Heywood Wakefield, Krohler, etc.. 

Well built pieces that can be had for less than the price of new furniture if you have the time and patience to cruise Craigslist and thrift stores.

[going2ER]

I just saw a show yesterday where they were talking about buying from Hotel Liquidators. Because the furniture needs to stand up to multiple people using it, it is generally solid wood. Like someone else noted, if you don't like the color paint it.

[Altons Bobs]

The last few times we bought wood furniture were from World Market (from either Indonesia or Thailand, don't remember) and also from a local furniture store. My desk has veneer but it's real wood underneath. Veneer is stronger, not as easily scratchable. This thing is super heavy, once it's put in place, you need several people to move it. So it stays put. Our nightstands have veneer on the surface, but also real wood underneath, also very heavy. I like these few pieces with veneer on the surface but real wood underneath, they're all done with dovetail joints, so they're very strong. Some of the World Market pieces don't have veneers, just wood.  What's wrong with veneer?

[goosefraba1]

Re-purpose old furniture. Re-finish old furniture. RE-finish furniture bought at garage sales.

Also, keep in mind that if you are at a furniture store, that sometimes they will sell the floor model at a discounted price.

If you have the means, I would definitely recommend build your own. Typically, they end up heavier... but more sturdy. Also, it is something that can be passed down for generations.
This is my project when we get our first house with a basement :) Shuffleboard table ftw.

[mjs111]

When you look at the price of new furniture part of the price premium is having a very heavy, awkward thing delivered to you "for free."  When buying or selling furniture on Craigslist I get a lot of exercise hand lugging stuff. If you were to pay a moving or shipping company it could easily cost a hundred bucks or so.

Mike

[Jack]

What's wrong with veneer?

• Veneer is used to hide construction that's inferior in other ways
• Veneer can't be sanded down and refinished as easily
• Veneer can chip off at the corners

When veneer is used for decorative inlays on expensive furniture the trade-off in durability might be worth it, but for cheap furniture it isn't.

[PhysicianOnFIRE]

What's wrong with veneer?

• Veneer is used to hide construction that's inferior in other ways
• Veneer can't be sanded down and refinished as easily
• Veneer can chip off at the corners

When veneer is used for decorative inlays on expensive furniture the trade-off in durability might be worth it, but for cheap furniture it isn't.

Veneer comes in different thicknesses.  It's probably safe to say that the thicker stuff was more common 50 years ago than it is today.  I would always take a solid walnut piece over a piece with walnut veneer.  But a thick, quality walnut veneered table might be preferable to a solid wood pine table. 

[doggyfizzle]

Go to an "unfinished" furniture store.  We outfitted our entire house with solid wood furniture (multiple pine dressers, end tables, TV console, desk, etc) for far less than it would have cost to buy garbage imported crap from most common furniture retailers; the catch is we had to stain it ourselves.  Easy to do with $50 worth of stain, brushes and wax.  Our preferred store also will stain the furniture for you for fairly reasonable prices if you don't want to do it yourself.

[MrGreen]

Estate sales are a magical place. You'll typically find older, higher quality furniture at ten cents on the dollar because the whole estate is being sold off.

[naners]

If you're worried about bed bugs, take your used furniture and wrap it tightly in dark green/black garbage bags, taping up the seams.  Then stick it outside in direct sun on a very hot summer day.  They'll die when the temp gets up to 113° F / 45° C for 15 minutes.

You can do something similar if it gets very cold, but it will take longer to kill them.

Actually it's 90 min at 118 F or immediately at 122F: http://www.bedbugs.umn.edu/understanding-bed-bug-treatments/

Not sure if the pastic wrap method would do that, plus by then you may have gotten them in your car etc. I guess your level of paranoia will depend on how buggy your city is: we got bedbugs in NYC from movers and had to pay an exterminator $5k to heat treat our entire home (I'm pregnant and didn't want insecticides in the house). I always used to buy from CL but I won't any more.

[Erica]

Daughter's apartment burned, we gave her our bedroom suite. She can pocket the settlement.  So we are shopping for bedroom furniture, something we do no do often as we bought Amish from the Amish in Michigan. We are in the south now so that is less convenient.

I can spot veneer 10 yards away but I think anyone could identify the lower quality without much effort.  What really surprised me is the Vietnamese furniture is only 30 -40% cheaper than online Amish furniture.  Vietnamese furniture seems to be the dominant player in the stores we visited.  Costco quality (Chinese) was superior in every way but too limited. We will get our order ready for the Amish stuff once we decide on style.

What do you do for wooden (non upholstered) furniture?

Goodwill or Craigslist. Then buy some stain from the Paint Store (kelly moore, sherwin williams for example) and stain it yourself. Ask them what to use but natural usually works best for us. Considering you can identify good quality wood from the photos, and can locate some. I think craigslist has a gallery feature so you can quickly see the photos without clicking each listing under the furnature section.

I have a friend with two small boys who quit her job to do this so she can be with her kids. She makes 75% what she used to going to work. She sells alot of stuff on Craigslist

[bobechs]

If you're worried about bed bugs, take your used furniture and wrap it tightly in dark green/black garbage bags, taping up the seams.  Then stick it outside in direct sun on a very hot summer day.  They'll die when the temp gets up to 113° F / 45° C for 15 minutes.

You can do something similar if it gets very cold, but it will take longer to kill them.

Actually it's 90 min at 118 F or immediately at 122F: http://www.bedbugs.umn.edu/understanding-bed-bug-treatments/

So, a typical summer day anywhere between Tulsa and Bakersfield, eh?

[PhrugalPhan]

Most of my furniture is either homemade from oak or from solid oak kits I used to be able to buy.  I haven't seen any kits available for a while - perhaps someone here can point you to a kit maker?  But I agree with others here - no way do I buy pressed fiberboard c**p for furniture.  Never have, never will.

[Tom Bri]

One thing I have noticed is that even high-end stuff is poorly finished. I have literally stripped off the finish of brand new solid oak furniture and sanded it smooth, then refinished with linseed oil. Pretty! I inherited a fine solid cherry table. Once I got the original varnish off it was gorgeous, but whoever did the finish didn't bother to do a fine job, since they knew it was going to have a thick layer of varnish on it, hiding all the rough spots.

[Nobodys Fault But Mine]

I have seen some really great buys on vintage and antique furniture on the auction site Everything But The House.  EBTH.com.

[MMM98]

. This thing is super heavy, once it's put in place, you eed several people to move it. Our nightstands have veneer on the surface, but also real wood underneath, also very heavy. I like these few pieces with veneer on the surface but real wood underneath, they're all done with dovetail joints, so they're very strong.  What's wrong with veneer?

I heard these same lines from the sales people.  I spent a few years learning  wood pattern making (tool and die) and am quite able to make my own furniture.  Not to start a food fight but to educate, the real wood line and heavy can indicate particle board.  It is in a broad definition "real wood".  Veneer almost never superior to non veneer.  The exceptions are so few,as in burls, that they merit only a passing mention. Modern veneers are 1/128th or 1/64 of one inch thick.  The veneers of the 1960s were 1/16th of one inch thick. 

A piece of common writing paper is 5 thousands of an inch thick. 1/128 is is 15 sheets of paper, this is what you are getting with veneer.  It sounds impressive but try it, it is not that thick.  I hope this illustrates why veneer is not superior to solid wood.

[big_slacker]

Costco quality (Chinese) was superior in every way but too limited. We will get our order ready for the Amish stuff once we decide on style.

The best piece of wood furniture we have strangely came from costco. Coffee table, all real wood, very solid/heavy and well fastened with big bolts. No problems with two adults standing on it. (Yes, that happens in our household) I wish everything we had was built the same. I feel like everything is so cheaply made these days unless it's ridiculously high end. Makes me want to build a woodshop and dust off my old high school building skills, but I'm not sure that would be saving any money. ;)

[Trimatty471]

Daughter's apartment burned, we gave her our bedroom suite. She can pocket the settlement.  So we are shopping for bedroom furniture, something we do no do often as we bought Amish from the Amish in Michigan. We are in the south now so that is less convenient.

I can spot veneer 10 yards away but I think anyone could identify the lower quality without much effort.  What really surprised me is the Vietnamese furniture is only 30 -40% cheaper than online Amish furniture.  Vietnamese furniture seems to be the dominant player in the stores we visited.  Costco quality (Chinese) was superior in every way but too limited. We will get our order ready for the Amish stuff once we decide on style.

What do you do for wooden (non upholstered) furniture?

Honestly,  I buy used.  The best wood furniture I found is the dresser located in my 2nd bedroom.  I found it at a used furniture store.   I did went the furniture store route for my living room, dining room, and master bedroom.  Living Rm and Dining Rm quality is okay.  But the bedroom, may need to be replaced in the future with quality wood furniture.

[HipGnosis]

I just saw a spot on local TV entertainews of a place (in Milwaukee) that is a fully stocked wood shop that rents out time and space to the public and offers classes.
I'm pretty sure they also sell multiple grades of wood.
I hope they are still there when I retire so I can take in the king size waterbed headboard I've had for 35+ years and trim it down to a queen size.

[Le Poisson]

On this thread but sideways,  I am flabbergasted by the Ikea faithful.

To be fair, their solid wood (pine??) stuff isn't too bad for knock-down furniture - we have a couple bookshelves. But even their cheap storage shelving can be garage-produced for a fraction of the cost, and very little time investment. Its just 1X2's and lag bolts.

In my life I have had opportunity to own (not buy) 2 different Ikea sofas. Neither one lasted more than a year. Yet Mommy-bloggers the world over are Ga-Ga for the crap that store pumps out. I am bewildered.

[MMM98]

But even their cheap storage shelving can be garage-produced for a fraction of the cost, and very little time investment. Its just 1X2's and lag bolts.

In my life I have had opportunity to own (not buy) 2 different Ikea sofas. Neither one lasted more than a year. Yet Mommy-bloggers the world over are Ga-Ga for the crap that store pumps out. I am bewildered.

Never underestimate the ability of people's ability not to do simple stuff for themselves.

[Jakerado]

Never underestimate the ability of people's ability not to do simple stuff for themselves.

Or simply that people don't have the space for it. I live in a studio with no garage. I can't even fit a jig saw, let alone a place to cut or store wood. (Ok, I could probably find room for a jigsaw...but I still can't cut anything with it)

[Jack]

On this thread but sideways,  I am flabbergasted by the Ikea faithful.

To be fair, their solid wood (pine??) stuff isn't too bad for knock-down furniture - we have a couple bookshelves. But even their cheap storage shelving can be garage-produced for a fraction of the cost, and very little time investment. Its just 1X2's and lag bolts.

In my life I have had opportunity to own (not buy) 2 different Ikea sofas. Neither one lasted more than a year. Yet Mommy-bloggers the world over are Ga-Ga for the crap that store pumps out. I am bewildered.

The key to Ikea is separating the wheat from the chaff. Some of the stuff they sell is actually good quality (e.g. the Poang chair). Some other stuff they sell is so cheap you actually can't beat the price DIYing it (e.g. their glorified-cardboard table/desk tops). It's the mediocre stuff you have to learn to avoid.

[serpentstooth]

On this thread but sideways,  I am flabbergasted by the Ikea faithful.

To be fair, their solid wood (pine??) stuff isn't too bad for knock-down furniture - we have a couple bookshelves. But even their cheap storage shelving can be garage-produced for a fraction of the cost, and very little time investment. Its just 1X2's and lag bolts.

In my life I have had opportunity to own (not buy) 2 different Ikea sofas. Neither one lasted more than a year. Yet Mommy-bloggers the world over are Ga-Ga for the crap that store pumps out. I am bewildered.

Almost my entire apartment is IKEA, either new or secondhand (I've never had a garage in which to build things and mostly have lacked a car/muscles to make buying used convenient). Everything has survived two moves and been in use at least 5 years. I also have a particle board bookcase I bought from Office Max before my freshman year of high school for $30 that is still in my husband's office. The only IKEA product I've ever had fail on me were some $15 plastic dining chairs. I don't know how much of this is my ability to pick the best stuff IKEA offers, how much is that that we're very very careful in assembling them, and how much is good luck, but I've been really pleased.

[Northwestie]

Never underestimate the ability of people's ability not to do simple stuff for themselves.

Or simply that people don't have the space for it. I live in a studio with no garage. I can't even fit a jig saw, let alone a place to cut or store wood. (Ok, I could probably find room for a jigsaw...but I still can't cut anything with it)

I have the same problem but love woodworking.  Try your local community college. I go to a local one with a cabinet and boat building program - they have great workspaces and machines.  You have to take the intro course before moving to open shop, just to make sure you don't lop off a finger and know how to use things safely.  Then there is an advisor there for help but you have access to high quality machines.  I've made several pieces here and taken a design class as well.  Lucky out in the PNW - not to far is the Pt. Townsend Woodworking School where I've taken  weekend long specialty classes.

[Le Poisson]

On this thread but sideways,  I am flabbergasted by the Ikea faithful.

To be fair, their solid wood (pine??) stuff isn't too bad for knock-down furniture - we have a couple bookshelves. But even their cheap storage shelving can be garage-produced for a fraction of the cost, and very little time investment. Its just 1X2's and lag bolts.

In my life I have had opportunity to own (not buy) 2 different Ikea sofas. Neither one lasted more than a year. Yet Mommy-bloggers the world over are Ga-Ga for the crap that store pumps out. I am bewildered.

Almost my entire apartment is IKEA, either new or secondhand (I've never had a garage in which to build things and mostly have lacked a car/muscles to make buying used convenient). Everything has survived two moves and been in use at least 5 years. I also have a particle board bookcase I bought from Office Max before my freshman year of high school for $30 that is still in my husband's office. The only IKEA product I've ever had fail on me were some $15 plastic dining chairs. I don't know how much of this is my ability to pick the best stuff IKEA offers, how much is that that we're very very careful in assembling them, and how much is good luck, but I've been really pleased.

My successful Ikea purchases include a desk and two shelves, and a kitchen. Their kitchens are actually so easy to put together and wear well enough that they make sense. Anything Ikea that I have tried to move between houses has not survived. Oh - and their 3/$1.00 cork hotpots are hard to beat, but now that the dollar store stocks them, meh.

[justajane]

Agree with others on veneer. I hate the stuff. In fact I am currently staring at our ugly ass veneer side table that is way more shabby than chic. I just haven't been motivated to replace it yet, but the finish on top is ruined from coffee cups and glasses.

As far as solid wood furniture, you can try unfinished furniture stores. You can often pay them to finish it if you are too lazy to do it yourself.

Our solid wood dining room chairs were bought at World Market. I believe most of their furniture is solid wood.

[acroy]

$200 Ikea bunkbed; holding up just fine :)
Estate sales are time sucks but we've scored a couple nice pieces.
We've had great luck at World Market close-outs a couple times. Their furniture seems pretty solid. The 2 couches are 12yrs old and still look like $$
I've built a few beds, shelves, etc. Kept it simple and gave it a nice finish, looks good.

[Uturn]

As with most everything in life, veneer comes in different qualities.  I good veneer will last generations.

It's not a new thing that just started this century when evil capitalists tried to maximize profit.  The first know veneers date back to the ancient Egyptians about 4000 years ago.  Veneer is simply a way to make very expensive wood go farther.  A good veneer is thick and is applied with hot hide glue.  I use 1/32" (or close to it) veneer with 251 grain glue.  I don't think it will be chipping or curling any time soon.  Talk to a luthier, those guys know a ton about veneering.  Very high end instruments are veneered and are not junk.

All this to say, yes I agree there is a lot of junk in the stores.  But you can't look at junk and deem all veneered furniture is the same.  The main problem is our society at large has forgotten the value quality and look at price only.  If I were in the mass production business, I too would use cheap veneers, cheap glue, and nasty substrates.  Why not, most people only want their furniture for 5-10 years anyhow.  I can make it cheap and sell it to you 3 or 4 times vs build it good once. 

[iris lily]

What's wrong with veneer?

• Veneer is used to hide construction that's inferior in other ways
• Veneer can't be sanded down and refinished as easily
• Veneer can chip off at the corners

When veneer is used for decorative inlays on expensive furniture the trade-off in durability might be worth it, but for cheap furniture it isn't.

I remember when my mother used to sneer at "veneer" but the finest pieces of furniture, well, some of the finest, are old, French, and veneered,you will find them in museums. It took me a while to understand that she understood only certain types of furniture, not really fine furniture.

Today we visited the workshop of Amish cabinent makers who DH has worked with. Wow,they are great craftsmen, and the price of their custom made product is about the same as standard  Home Depot and Lowe's pieces.

[The_Captain]

Me and my fiancee learned not too long ago of the declining quality of furniture when our couch started sinking in upon itself. Me and a friend popped it up and cut out the bottom to find that the board that all the springs attached to had been stapled into the frame and had pulled loose, as well as the centre wood bar splitting in 2. We ended up having to get some new wood and reinforcing the centre bar and clamping the springboard back into place and adding some actual wood screws.

It's just disappointing how they were too cheap to use a couple of screws to keep the whole thing together and thought wood staples would be sufficient. Considering that half of the sectional probably cost something like $600 I can't imagine that $2 worth of wood screws would eat that hard into profits.

[FiftyIsTheNewTwenty]

Kudos for buying Amish furniture, or from other American craftspeople.  You can save a lot and/or get much better quality by going straight to the source.

Furniture is big -- a lot of its cost is in shipping, warehousing, and paying for retail space.  It's unbelieveable how cheap the cheapest stuff from overseas has to be FOB factory to meet those prices.  Replacing cheap sofas every few years to maintain a presentable home is definitely un-Mustachian.

Older sofas and chairs with good hardwood frames and spring cushions are definitely worth recovering, vs. replacing.  You can get top notch reupholstery for about $1500 for a sofa, half that for a slipcover.

Go used, recover if necessary.

[Rural]

Veneers are definitely one of those things that can be good or bad. We have a veneered vanity from the teens (the previous ones, not the current ones - going to have to change my language) that's as lovely today as when it was made. But then there's a dresser which is late '20s or early '30s, and its veneer has chipped along the edges in a few spots. So even the old stuff varies.

[munchabunch]

I am a huge fan of solid hardwood furniture; saved up for a handcrafted solid hickory table set and couldn't be happier.  It will outlast my husband and me.

That being said, the insistence on "Amish" hardwood furniture is a marketing pitch.  I live in Madison, WI, so there's a furniture store here that advertises all Amish made furniture, but there are definitely some sub-par pieces in their showroom and the prices are crazy (and one of the custom quotes I got was for a regular guy who did hardwood furniture, not Amish at all).  I get all my hardwood furniture at a local factory, http://www.handcraftedfurniture.net/ and it's 20-30% cheaper than the local place.  They're just a bunch of craftsman making hardwood furniture.  I've still got a dresser from them that's survived four moves and 15 years with only some surface dings.

[Tjat]

I'm similiar in that I don't like veneer (at all), but don't want to pay Amish.

I compromised with Whittier Wood (http://www.whittierwood.com/) which claims to be american alder (though is made overseas).

Seems great so far for our bedroom set


My problem with veneer is that it's commonly sold atop "real wood" that is really real wood chips adhered together with a ton of glue ---> which is why they are so heavy

[FrugalHawk]

My hot tip is to drive through small, po-dunk towns near you and stop at the antique shops. I got 3 solid wood dressers for $400 (2 cherry, 1 maple) when a single of one of them is worth more than $400. The 2 cherry ones now serve as the sole place to store clothes for my husband and I (one for him, one for me) and the maple one is now a tv stand, replacing cheap ikea junk.

[lizzzi]

I too hate particleboard.

If I'm not building it, Craigslist is my go-to.  I search for "room and board" or "room & board" furniture on Craigslist and I always have a good idea of what's a good deal vs what isn't.  I'm a bit of a furniture freak though.  Room and board is basically my favorite large furniture company because of their design plus build quality.

Looked at their website and loved this stuff...but the prices! Yikes! Assuming I can't find what I need used, is this stuff of BIFL quality and worth the prices? Any other MMMers buying Room and Board?