A reason not to retire early

[Jamesqf]

From the news today:

Researchers analyzing health and insurance records of more than 429,000 self-employed workers found a 3 percent reduction in dementia risk for each extra year at the age of retirement. Workers evaluated had been retired for an average of more than 12 years, and 2.65 percent of the group had dementia.

Full article here: http://health.usnews.com/health-news/news/articles/2013/07/15/putting-off-retirement-may-help-stave-off-alzheimers

[Joet]

I've always wondered what to think of this data (which is everywhere you look). Will I be the exception? Will I actually be able to ER?  How exactly am I going to go mad by surfing nearly every day and riding my bike and being with my wife and friends every day? Is the data normalized for age? (I'm sure it is) Does any of this matter though?

[oldtoyota]

I've always wondered what to think of this data (which is everywhere you look). Will I be the exception? Will I actually be able to ER?  How exactly am I going to go mad by surfing nearly every day and riding my bike and being with my wife and friends every day? Is the data normalized for age? (I'm sure it is) Does any of this matter though?

I'll take the risk! LOL

[matchewed]

For one thing no link to the study itself :(

Aside from that I think it's less about not retiring and more about staying mentally engaged and active. I believe that employment provides that in some way but it is not the only way to provide that. I guess this just gets chalked up into a logical fallacy for me. We equate employment as the only way to get that engagement and ignore our own drive and hobbies which have been consumed by 40+ years of employment (unless you're one of the lucky few who has that drive/hobby/employment all wrapped up into one).

[dcheesi]

It's certainly true that early retirement can be bad for some people. I know an early retiree who sits at home watching television most of the time. She still has her wits, but her "comfort zone" has noticeably shrunk from when I first knew her. Her ability to cope with everyday annoyances has atrophied, to the point that the tiniest things upset her terribly.

I think the key is to keep yourself challenged, whether it's by volunteering, a difficult hobby, or whatever. That's what keeps your mind "fit".

[Marmot]

Some people stop working earlier than planned due to cognitive decline; does this study attempt to take into account this factor? I am sure there are several other uncaptured factors that would make it difficult to reasonably declare a causal relationship.

I find it obnoxious and sometimes dangerous when mainstream media tries to imply causality when all that is shown in the underlying study is usually just correlation. As there is no link to the study itself, I cannot definitely say this is the case here, though that is what I suspect.

[Albert]

The key is to sustain a mentally challenging environment. Just riding your bike or watching TV all day won't do it.

[Khan]

It's actually well documented, that the standard "retirement", wherein you cease working, maybe go for a few years on vacations, and spend much of your time at home doing nothing kills.
http://www.freakonomics.com/2012/05/17/retirement-kills-a-new-marketplace-podcast/

[Marmot]

and spend much of your time at home doing nothing kills.

I think this is the key; lack of physical exercise and socializing.

[Jamesqf]

It's certainly true that early retirement can be bad for some people.

Not just early retirement, either.  I've mentioned my two neighbors before: the retired one is late 60s, the one that was working up to a year or so ago will be 99 in September, yet to watch them you would think they're about the same age.

Likewise, I agree about the benefits of mental & physical stimulation.  Thing is, if you're retired, you usually have to pay for that.  If you work (at an interesting job), they pay you :-)

[FitStash]

"The study showed that for every extra year of early retirement, workers lost about two months of life expectancy." -Freakenomics

http://www.freakonomics.com/2012/05/17/retirement-kills-a-new-marketplace-podcast/

Well, lets just go ahead and clear this mess up. :-)

Full time work Scenario:

In 1 year of full time work (with 2 weeks vacation) you
work --- 2000 hrs
sleep --- 2920 hrs
prepare for work/commute ---- 520 hrs

This leaves you with a total of 8760 hrs - 5440 hrs = 3320 hrs of time to spend how you choose.

Early Retirement Scenario:

In 1 year, you sleep 2920 hours, and the expectation value of your life decreases by 2 months (or 1460 hrs).  This leaves you with a total of 8760 hrs - 4380 hrs = 4380 hrs of time to spend how you choose.


By retiring early, and "reducing" your life expectancy, you actually gain 1060 hours every year by retiring early.  As long as you find something meaningful (to you) to do, you should be better off. 

[Jamesqf]

By retiring early, and "reducing" your life expectancy, you actually gain 1060 hours every year by retiring early. 

A strange sort of math, when you assume that hours spent working aren't also hours spent living, but hours spent e.g. parked in front of the TV are.  If your work is that mindlessly boring, why not find something else to do?  It's not that much harder than the suggestion above about volunteering.

[2527]

I hope to find a way to work 25-30 hours per week as long as I can.

[Jamesqf]

I hope to find a way to work 25-30 hours per week as long as I can.

Yes.  I've long thought that for a regular job, 4 8-hour days per week, and a couple of months vacation per year, would be pretty close to ideal. 

[impaire]

I've seen people decline very rapidly after retirement -- including my own grandfather, who died within six months of it, at the ripe ol' age of 65.

Part of the drive to ER is actually to avoid this by not putting myself in a situation where work has crowded out every other source of stimulation in my life. I figure that it's better to learn how to deal with myself before my own company bores me to death :p

[kkbmustang]

I don't ever want to become one of those people who has so much time on their hands, sticking their noses in other people's business is the only thing they have to do. I don't need to work at paid employment to avoid that, but I'm thinking some people might.

[destron]

It is definitely something to consider because, as much as we like to think that we will keep ourselves busy in ER, it is not a simple task. I intend to treat ER as an opportunity to give my family and hobbies much greater attention on a level similar to what I give my job right now.

I also think this article is showing a correlation but does not get to the reason work reduces your dementia which I suspect is that you are forced to keep your mind active for longer.

On the other hand, working longer can shave years off your life.

Stress reduces lifespan: http://www.naturalnews.com/036730_stress_DNA_damage_life_span.html
Sitting too reduces lifespan (article also ignores causes): http://www.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/06/24/sitting.shorten.life/index.html
Shift work reduces lifespan: http://scienceblogs.com/clock/2007/04/22/rotating-shifts-shorten-lives/

[prosaic]

The study focused on *self-employed* workers, who I'd imagine (as one of them) tend to be more autonomous in their work and work in areas of their choosing, and thus leaving work that is a major part of their identity could very well affect mental integrity.

[Random]

I agree with Marmot about how annoying the media is when they get all confused about correlation vs causation.  The only thing that surprises me about the story is that the media failed to follow their time honored tradition of sensationalizing the headline past incredulity.  They should have led with:  "scientists prove early retirement causes dementia"

[Broke NCO]

On the other hand, working longer can shave years off your life.

Stress reduces lifespan: http://www.naturalnews.com/036730_stress_DNA_damage_life_span.html
Sitting too reduces lifespan (article also ignores causes): http://www.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/06/24/sitting.shorten.life/index.html
Shift work reduces lifespan: http://scienceblogs.com/clock/2007/04/22/rotating-shifts-shorten-lives/

Not looking good for me. I'm in a high stress occupation that requires me to stay seated 6-8 hrs a day and rotate between 3 different shifts every 6 weeks.  Should of started this ER plan sooner.

[Katnina]

...I agree about the benefits of mental & physical stimulation.  Thing is, if you're retired, you usually have to pay for that.  If you work (at an interesting job), they pay you :-)

you don't have to pay to volunteer!  I volunteer with a program that teaches gardening to public school kids- it's mentally stimulating and gardening can be pretty good exercise, too!  I used to volunteer at an animal shelter walking dogs- mentally stimulating because I got to attend free dog behavior and training classes, and there was a lot of walking too...downside of that is we ended up adopting a second dog (not really a downside, but since our rule is no more pets than people, i can't let myself volunteer there anymore because we'd end up with a third...).
there are tons of volunteer opportunities that allow you to stay mentally engaged once you're no longer working for money.   And going for a walk is free! biking is cheap! Free yoga and pilates videos are all over the internets. 

[Zamboni]

The key is to sustain a mentally challenging environment. Just riding your bike or watching TV all day won't do it.

Actually riding a bike (assuming one is outside) can be a very mentally challenging environment!  Also, very recent fMRI studies have shown that exercise is very stimulating for the brain.

I'll definitely agree on the watching TV all day, though.  Nothing makes me feel worse.

Meaningful "work" is important imho.  MMM isn't sitting home doing nothing, but he is in a situation where he can decide at any moment to change activities.  No one is forcing him to do dangerous or boring, repetitive labor or sit at a desk all day doing something he doesn't like (or, in the case of many 9-5er's, having nothing stimulating at all to do but sit there killing time.) 

The most meaningful work is the work that you want to do, and many working people in paid employment don't have any flexibility about choosing their daily tasks.  Self employed people generally have much more flexibility; in a way, being self employed is sort of like mustachian retirement, but without the stress of needing to keep going sometimes when you're ready to stop just bc you need the money.  Reverting to doing nothing is surely a recipe for disaster for mental and physical health, but that would be a poor choice for how to retire.

[Jamesqf]

The most meaningful work is the work that you want to do, and many working people in paid employment don't have any flexibility about choosing their daily tasks.

That's the benefit of financial independence, though.  If you can afford to walk away from that boring and/or stressful job, you have a lot of leverage in adjusting working conditions to suit yourself, either with your current employer or with another.  Maybe it's (like MMM :-)) a matter of going into some other line of work that you like better.  But it's not a matter of the only two possibilities being boring job or retirement.

[DoubleDown]

I wonder about this supposed link to retirement and then rapid decline or death. I'd like to see the statistically meaningful comparison of similar-aged people dying at their desk or while still gainfully employed. I have a feeling there's a lot less causation at work here, and that the more likely cause is aging and bad habits in general. But of course no doubt that lack of mental or physical stimulation would be bad for anyone and could hasten one's demise.

I imagine for every person we could name that died 6 months after retirement, we could find another who died 6 months before. Or one week before. Especially cops, bragging about their retirement plans to their partners, showing pictures of their boat named the "Gonna Live Forever", then they head out to arrest the cartel kingpin.

[matchewed]

I imagine for every person we could name that died 6 months after retirement, we could find another who died 6 months before. Or one week before. Especially cops, bragging about their retirement plans to their partners, showing pictures of their boat named the "Gonna Live Forever", then they head out to arrest the cartel kingpin.

It was just a routine traffic stop. The last ticket I'll ever write....

/dramatic gasp and dead

[gdborton]

By retiring early, and "reducing" your life expectancy, you actually gain 1060 hours every year by retiring early. 

A strange sort of math, when you assume that hours spent working aren't also hours spent living, but hours spent e.g. parked in front of the TV are.  If your work is that mindlessly boring, why not find something else to do?  It's not that much harder than the suggestion above about volunteering.

I think the distinction comes in when you are working for a living that you don't have the choice of doing what you want every single day. Sure you can love what your doing, but if you have to do it every week day it isn't really a choice.  If you go surfing instead you don't get paid.

Unless of course you can make a choice every single day of what you're going to get paid for, which would be an odd convenience.

[Albert]

I think another aspect not yet mentioned here is that quite a few people (particularly men) feel after retirement that they are not contributing anything to the society any more so there is nothing to live for. My father is in that category... He took it hard then he was finally forced to retire two years ago from a position in the municipal government at age 66. The saving grace is my 5 year old niece who lives with grandparents ca 1/3 of a time and loves my dad and keeps him active.

[Nords]

Pragmatic:  I think my father (in mid-stage Alzheimer's) would agree that the worst day of Alzheimer's is still better than the best day at work. 

Statistical:  This data review doesn't account for retirees who left the workforce due to declining health, let alone due to declining cognition.  When your bookkeeper can no longer track spreadsheets, you're no longer going to pay them.  When you're incapable of running your own business, then all your customers are going to go somewhere else and you'll end up retired. 

Lifestyle:  This study thinks that there's a causation between retirement and Alzheimer's.  However they only studied the people who survived "working" long enough to achieve "retirement" and "Alzheimer's" status.  What percentage of the population died "on the job" or from other health-related reasons before any Alzheimer's symptoms became apparent? 

These studies do have a useful purpose.  If you're not ready to retire, then these studies are great for justifying your "Just one more year!" bias.  That's one more year of paying Social Security & Medicare taxes, so if you're scared away from retirement by these studies then I suppose you're still helping the rest of us enjoy our retirement benefits...

[vern]

I'm still going to retire early and count on chess, crosswords, and Indian food to stave off Alzheimer's!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_K990aJl820

[Jamesqf]

I think my father (in mid-stage Alzheimer's) would agree that the worst day of Alzheimer's is still better than the best day at work.

Yeah, but would your father think that if he didn't have Alzheimer's?

I suppose it's an attitude thing: I can't think of a day of actual work* I've done that wouldn't be better than even mild Alzheimer's, even if you left out the fact that I could always quit work.

(That is, leaving out a number of days on Parris Island & elsewhere, and even those would be a close call.)

[Albert]

I think my father (in mid-stage Alzheimer's) would agree that the worst day of Alzheimer's is still better than the best day at work.

Yeah, but would your father think that if he didn't have Alzheimer's?

I suppose it's an attitude think: I can't think of a day of actual work* I've done that wouldn't be better than even mild Alzheimer's, even if you left out the fact that I could always quit work.

+1

[Nords]

I'm glad to see that you guys have found work you love, but for the rest of us (including my Dad) early retirement has enabled us to enjoy doing things other than work.

[FitStash]

By retiring early, and "reducing" your life expectancy, you actually gain 1060 hours every year by retiring early. 

A strange sort of math, when you assume that hours spent working aren't also hours spent living, but hours spent e.g. parked in front of the TV are.  If your work is that mindlessly boring, why not find something else to do?  It's not that much harder than the suggestion above about volunteering.

Here, by retirement, I mean FI.  Prior to FI, you are in the wage slave stage, and you have no choice but to go to work every day in order to survive.  After FI, you can still choose to work (as I and most people here plan to do),  you just have the power to define what that work is, and when you want to do it.

tl;dr: wage servitude doesn't count  :-)

[Jamesqf]

I'm glad to see that you guys have found work you love, but for the rest of us (including my Dad) early retirement has enabled us to enjoy doing things other than work.

"Love" is maybe overstating the case a bit, but yes, I do enjoy the mental exercise of my job (and I like having goals that other people set).  But did you ever stop to think that if you aren't, at some level, enjoying the work you do, you're wasting your time?  And probably aren't making a very good job of your work, either.

Then there's the whole variety thing.  I might, for instance, enjoy surfing, if I lived in a suitable place.  But if I had to do it every day, it wouldn't be too long before I got pretty burned out.