2023 Chevy Bolt

[GilesMM]

Tesla just announced new price cuts, for example dropping the Model Y from $65k to $52K.  They seem to be selling very slowly these days.

[Scandium]

Tesla just announced new price cuts, for example dropping the Model Y from $65k to $52K.  They seem to be selling very slowly these days.

Oh great! It went from Stupid expensive to just Idioticlly expensive! Now I'd only have to drive 800,000 miles to make it worth it over a basic ICE car.. Tesla continue to not make sense

[JLee]

Tesla just announced new price cuts, for example dropping the Model Y from $65k to $52K.  They seem to be selling very slowly these days.

Oh great! It went from Stupid expensive to just Idioticlly expensive! Now I'd only have to drive 800,000 miles to make it worth it over a basic ICE car.. Tesla continue to not make sense

$45k after the federal tax credit, and if you're shopping comparable ICE cars your comparison is comically absurd.

[Scandium]

Tesla just announced new price cuts, for example dropping the Model Y from $65k to $52K.  They seem to be selling very slowly these days.

Oh great! It went from Stupid expensive to just Idioticlly expensive! Now I'd only have to drive 800,000 miles to make it worth it over a basic ICE car.. Tesla continue to not make sense

$45k after the federal tax credit, and if you're shopping comparable ICE cars your comparison is comically absurd.

yes I was exaggerating, I didn't actually do the numbers. The "comparison" being a car that takes me from A to B, assuming those points are <200 miles from each other. A $18k used ICE can do that..

Actually I just looked and can't make even a "cheap" EV make sense. A used Ioniq5 (sp?) is something like $4000 more than a comparable ICE (+charger install?). And even more if you get an older ICE, since the iq5 is so new. Assuming zero running cost for the EV I'd have drive something like 40-50k miles to break even. Or 5-7 years for my use. Sure I'd want to keep it longer than that, but that's still a pretty bad break even. And that's ignoring running costs for the EV, the issue of limited range (so I'd have to use my other ICE car more) etc. It's getting close, but at best it's a toss-up, and you get range issues.
I don't get it, what am I missing? I'm below average, but don't drive that little per year. Yet I just can't make the numbers add up in favor of EV.

[grantmeaname]

If 40-50k miles is 5-7 years of your use, you're at half the average, so maybe that's a lot of the explanation. And the other half is that you're comparing it to other utilitarian transportation, not to a really fair peer car like a BMW X-series luxury SUV - the premium looks much smaller if you are buying a new luxury car anyway.

[Scandium]

If 40-50k miles is 5-7 years of your use, you're at half the average, so maybe that's a lot of the explanation. And the other half is that you're comparing it to other utilitarian transportation, not to a really fair peer car like a BMW X-series luxury SUV - the premium looks much smaller if you are buying a new luxury car anyway.

yeah of course. But I think anyone on this board would agree those are stupid, and never a consideration. And hopefully most people in "the real world" as well. Determine your need (A to B), select the most efficient and economical tool to solve that need, with minimal superfluous junk. That's how the analysis should go. Spending $100k to show of a brand and get a foot massage while driving never makes rational sense. 

[ChpBstrd]

Tesla just announced new price cuts, for example dropping the Model Y from $65k to $52K.  They seem to be selling very slowly these days.

Oh great! It went from Stupid expensive to just Idioticlly expensive! Now I'd only have to drive 800,000 miles to make it worth it over a basic ICE car.. Tesla continue to not make sense

The Model Y previously had a 5 year cost of ownership $17k higher than a Ford F150 Crew Cab, but these price cuts might bring it down to nearly the 5 year cost of owning a Model 3. Woo hoo, we're saving money!

We're down to the point where it only costs $14,000 more to drive a 2022 Tesla for five years than it costs to drive a 2023 Toyota Camry. I suppose we need to pick a number and say that's a Mustachian premium to pay for the brand name and the signals it sends.

[Scandium]

Tesla just announced new price cuts, for example dropping the Model Y from $65k to $52K.  They seem to be selling very slowly these days.

Oh great! It went from Stupid expensive to just Idioticlly expensive! Now I'd only have to drive 800,000 miles to make it worth it over a basic ICE car.. Tesla continue to not make sense

The Model Y previously had a 5 year cost of ownership $17k higher than a Ford F150 Crew Cab, but these price cuts might bring it down to nearly the 5 year cost of owning a Model 3. Woo hoo, we're saving money!

We're down to the point where it only costs $14,000 more to drive a 2022 Tesla for five years than it costs to drive a 2023 Toyota Camry. I suppose we need to pick a number and say that's a Mustachian premium to pay for the brand name and the signals it sends.

Compounded over those 5 years that's only $20,000 to show how green you are! ...when you drive to the mailbox. And support lord and savior Elon!

[grantmeaname]

a Mustachian premium to pay for the brand name and the signals it sends.

You should think carefully about the signals this brand name sends before you decide to rep it.

Tesla has made no progress towards its supposed goal of making a Toyota Camry or Volkswagen Beetle-like car for the masses and spends its engineering resources making ever-plaid-ier upgrade packages so its luxury cars can go faster and their drivers can more conspicuously consume. He is cozy with antidemocratic bad actors around the world, including the Chinese Communist Party holding Tesla by the balls with an ill-defined and unilateral ability to revoke Tesla Gigafactory Shanghai's right to the land it sits on. Tesla has so little integrity that upon finding a problem with the Model 3 brakes, Musk's solution was to stop testing the brakes. He diverted Tesla shareholder funds into nepotism with his bailout of his cousin's company. Now that he has climbed the social safety net and used society's resources, he's doing what he can to pull the ladder up behind him.

Musk himself is unprincipled and has made Twitter into a whiter, maler, more ableist, and more toxic place, hanging out the open shingle for literal nazis. In so doing he has destroyed a viable business with a higher debt load than its operations can carry, while also becoming beholden to Saudi financing to throw one more antidemocratic bad actor onto his list of owners. When accused of sexual harrassment, Musk's response was "If I were inclined to engage in sexual harassment, this is unlikely to be the first time". He founded The Boring Company in a bad-faith effort to kill public transit. His first foray into financial markets happened through forged autobiographical details and securities fraud which subsequently left him beholden to billionaire shitlord-in-chief Peter Thiel. He's an amoral, walking version of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Or, you can always buy an EV that doesn't fund the descent of the world into authoritarianism. As far as I know, if you look at Mary Barra's biography you won't find any cakes shaped like genitalia, securities fraud, bailouts of family members with shareholder funds, or out-of-wedlock children conceived with subordinates.

[jeninco]

a Mustachian premium to pay for the brand name and the signals it sends.

You should think carefully about the signals this brand name sends before you decide to rep it.

Tesla has made no progress towards its supposed goal of making a Toyota Camry or Volkswagen Beetle-like car for the masses and spends its engineering resources making ever-plaid-ier upgrade packages so its luxury cars can go faster and their drivers can more conspicuously consume. He is cozy with antidemocratic bad actors around the world, including the Chinese Communist Party holding Tesla by the balls with an ill-defined and unilateral ability to revoke Tesla Gigafactory Shanghai's right to the land it sits on. Tesla has so little integrity that upon finding a problem with the Model 3 brakes, Musk's solution was to stop testing the brakes. He diverted Tesla shareholder funds into nepotism with his bailout of his cousin's company. Now that he has climbed the social safety net and used society's resources, he's doing what he can to pull the ladder up behind him.

Musk himself is unprincipled and has made Twitter into a whiter, maler, more ableist, and more toxic place, hanging out the open shingle for literal nazis. In so doing he has destroyed a viable business with a higher debt load than its operations can carry, while also becoming beholden to Saudi financing to throw one more antidemocratic bad actor onto his list of owners. When accused of sexual harrassment, Musk's response was "If I were inclined to engage in sexual harassment, this is unlikely to be the first time". He founded The Boring Company in a bad-faith effort to kill public transit. His first foray into financial markets happened through forged autobiographical details and securities fraud which subsequently left him beholden to billionaire shitlord-in-chief Peter Thiel. He's an amoral, walking version of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Or, you can always buy an EV that doesn't fund the descent of the world into authoritarianism. As far as I know, if you look at Mary Barra's biography you won't find any cakes shaped like genitalia, securities fraud, bailouts of family members with shareholder funds, or out-of-wedlock children conceived with subordinates.

Thank you for saying this in a more factual and complete manner than I could manage! Although I think you left our the deplorable working conditions for the workers in the actual manufacturing facilities.

[gary3411]

a Mustachian premium to pay for the brand name and the signals it sends.

You should think carefully about the signals this brand name sends before you decide to rep it.

Tesla has made no progress towards its supposed goal of making a Toyota Camry or Volkswagen Beetle-like car for the masses and spends its engineering resources making ever-plaid-ier upgrade packages so its luxury cars can go faster and their drivers can more conspicuously consume. He is cozy with antidemocratic bad actors around the world, including the Chinese Communist Party holding Tesla by the balls with an ill-defined and unilateral ability to revoke Tesla Gigafactory Shanghai's right to the land it sits on. Tesla has so little integrity that upon finding a problem with the Model 3 brakes, Musk's solution was to stop testing the brakes. He diverted Tesla shareholder funds into nepotism with his bailout of his cousin's company. Now that he has climbed the social safety net and used society's resources, he's doing what he can to pull the ladder up behind him.

Musk himself is unprincipled and has made Twitter into a whiter, maler, more ableist, and more toxic place, hanging out the open shingle for literal nazis. In so doing he has destroyed a viable business with a higher debt load than its operations can carry, while also becoming beholden to Saudi financing to throw one more antidemocratic bad actor onto his list of owners. When accused of sexual harrassment, Musk's response was "If I were inclined to engage in sexual harassment, this is unlikely to be the first time". He founded The Boring Company in a bad-faith effort to kill public transit. His first foray into financial markets happened through forged autobiographical details and securities fraud which subsequently left him beholden to billionaire shitlord-in-chief Peter Thiel. He's an amoral, walking version of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Or, you can always buy an EV that doesn't fund the descent of the world into authoritarianism. As far as I know, if you look at Mary Barra's biography you won't find any cakes shaped like genitalia, securities fraud, bailouts of family members with shareholder funds, or out-of-wedlock children conceived with subordinates.

That is a whole lot of garbage you just typed out.

[achvfi]

a Mustachian premium to pay for the brand name and the signals it sends.

You should think carefully about the signals this brand name sends before you decide to rep it.

Tesla has made no progress towards its supposed goal of making a Toyota Camry or Volkswagen Beetle-like car for the masses and spends its engineering resources making ever-plaid-ier upgrade packages so its luxury cars can go faster and their drivers can more conspicuously consume. He is cozy with antidemocratic bad actors around the world, including the Chinese Communist Party holding Tesla by the balls with an ill-defined and unilateral ability to revoke Tesla Gigafactory Shanghai's right to the land it sits on. Tesla has so little integrity that upon finding a problem with the Model 3 brakes, Musk's solution was to stop testing the brakes. He diverted Tesla shareholder funds into nepotism with his bailout of his cousin's company. Now that he has climbed the social safety net and used society's resources, he's doing what he can to pull the ladder up behind him.

Musk himself is unprincipled and has made Twitter into a whiter, maler, more ableist, and more toxic place, hanging out the open shingle for literal nazis. In so doing he has destroyed a viable business with a higher debt load than its operations can carry, while also becoming beholden to Saudi financing to throw one more antidemocratic bad actor onto his list of owners. When accused of sexual harrassment, Musk's response was "If I were inclined to engage in sexual harassment, this is unlikely to be the first time". He founded The Boring Company in a bad-faith effort to kill public transit. His first foray into financial markets happened through forged autobiographical details and securities fraud which subsequently left him beholden to billionaire shitlord-in-chief Peter Thiel. He's an amoral, walking version of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Or, you can always buy an EV that doesn't fund the descent of the world into authoritarianism. As far as I know, if you look at Mary Barra's biography you won't find any cakes shaped like genitalia, securities fraud, bailouts of family members with shareholder funds, or out-of-wedlock children conceived with subordinates.

Well said and I am with you. Any other guy he would have been fired by now for all the trolling. But Tesla board looks other way. So brand has to suffer. Consequences are important.

[achvfi]

That is a whole lot of garbage you just typed out.

What about your own useless comments. Garbage.

[JLee]

Tesla just announced new price cuts, for example dropping the Model Y from $65k to $52K.  They seem to be selling very slowly these days.

Oh great! It went from Stupid expensive to just Idioticlly expensive! Now I'd only have to drive 800,000 miles to make it worth it over a basic ICE car.. Tesla continue to not make sense

The Model Y previously had a 5 year cost of ownership $17k higher than a Ford F150 Crew Cab, but these price cuts might bring it down to nearly the 5 year cost of owning a Model 3. Woo hoo, we're saving money!

We're down to the point where it only costs $14,000 more to drive a 2022 Tesla for five years than it costs to drive a 2023 Toyota Camry. I suppose we need to pick a number and say that's a Mustachian premium to pay for the brand name and the signals it sends.

Fascinating how they're predicting depreciation for cars that haven't been around long enough to have data.  In any other discussion, that'd be laughed out of the room.

[JLee]

Tesla just announced new price cuts, for example dropping the Model Y from $65k to $52K.  They seem to be selling very slowly these days.

Oh great! It went from Stupid expensive to just Idioticlly expensive! Now I'd only have to drive 800,000 miles to make it worth it over a basic ICE car.. Tesla continue to not make sense

$45k after the federal tax credit, and if you're shopping comparable ICE cars your comparison is comically absurd.

yes I was exaggerating, I didn't actually do the numbers. The "comparison" being a car that takes me from A to B, assuming those points are <200 miles from each other. A $18k used ICE can do that..

Actually I just looked and can't make even a "cheap" EV make sense. A used Ioniq5 (sp?) is something like $4000 more than a comparable ICE (+charger install?). And even more if you get an older ICE, since the iq5 is so new. Assuming zero running cost for the EV I'd have drive something like 40-50k miles to break even. Or 5-7 years for my use. Sure I'd want to keep it longer than that, but that's still a pretty bad break even. And that's ignoring running costs for the EV, the issue of limited range (so I'd have to use my other ICE car more) etc. It's getting close, but at best it's a toss-up, and you get range issues.
I don't get it, what am I missing? I'm below average, but don't drive that little per year. Yet I just can't make the numbers add up in favor of EV.

My SO is buying a 2023 Bolt EUV for $23k.  How much in gas / maintenance are you paying over eight years on any new vehicle you would buy today?

[EchoStache]

I don't think there is an ICE car made that is anywhere close to the low cost of ownership one would get from a new 2023 Chevy Bolt.  $20k after the tax credit.  Energy around 1/3 the cost of gas.  Almost no maintenance in comparison....I mean...maybe tires, wipers, washer fluid, and cabin air filter.  The savings is even higher with solar.  It's a slam dunk.  Only drawback to the Bolt is slow charging on long trips which will be important for some and all but meaningless for others.  It's really important to us, unfortunately.

I can't make the case for buying a fossil car when compared to the Bolt.  Not even remotely close.

[GilesMM]

I worry about the Botl being cheaply and poorly built and simply falling apart. Or catching fire.

[EchoStache]

Can’t completely rule those two issues out. I think the battery replacement has probably solved the battery fire issue.

For another super high value car, I’d have to toss a ~2020-2021 Hyundai Ioniq PHEV into the ring. Under $25k, $4k rebate, 30 miles electric range for daily driving, great warranty. It’s the car I should have bought!

[EchoStache]

Tesla just announced new price cuts, for example dropping the Model Y from $65k to $52K.  They seem to be selling very slowly these days.

Oh great! It went from Stupid expensive to just Idioticlly expensive! Now I'd only have to drive 800,000 miles to make it worth it over a basic ICE car.. Tesla continue to not make sense

The Model Y previously had a 5 year cost of ownership $17k higher than a Ford F150 Crew Cab, but these price cuts might bring it down to nearly the 5 year cost of owning a Model 3. Woo hoo, we're saving money!

We're down to the point where it only costs $14,000 more to drive a 2022 Tesla for five years than it costs to drive a 2023 Toyota Camry. I suppose we need to pick a number and say that's a Mustachian premium to pay for the brand name and the signals it sends.

I wonder how these numbers would come out if some of the numbers were remotely accurate updated with current prices being discussed.  For example, M3 base price is now $45,000; Edmunds is using $52,000.  They also used a $1500 tax credit, rather than $7500.  In my state, the total tax credit is $8250.  Wonder how things would look if the cost to own used real numbers current numbers?  Just these two things lower the cost almost $14,000.  Maintenance cost doesn't look horribly unreasonable....tires I guess within 5 years.  Maybe two sets of tires would use up some of that.  Don't get me wrong.....I'm not arguing Tesla is the high value, frugal option.  Just that those numbers are meaninglessly inaccurate (when responding to someone who brings up the new lower pricing).

Ok, just checked another data point to see if that TCO estimate is reasonable.....they have $10,757 for insurance......well somehow I have a ten year policy cost of $7900 for two drivers on both a 2023 Tesla M3 AWD(more expensive version) and a 2022 Kia Niro EV.  So let's call it $4,000 for just a base model Tesla.  $5k if we want to exaggerate, which is $5,700 less than Edmunds.  So now, we are off by $19000, and this doesn't address lower depreciation, lower taxes, and lower interest as a result of lower cost i.e. $45k vs $52k.  These quick napkin math corrections easily put a brand new Tesla M3 below the Camry in TCO since their numbers are inflated by over $20k

[grantmeaname]

A bit unfair to criticize Edmunds for not yet reflecting a price cut and newfound tax credit eligibility that happened only 48 hours ago. And insurance costs vary a lot based on drivers, place, and circumstance, even if you can get insurance for cheaper than they say.

Totally agree you should always run the numbers for yourself instead of relying on rules of thumb and nationwide averages, and the actual adjustments you've made. But it's not like Edmunds is using a 2019 price. They're using a Thursday of this week price.

[EchoStache]

A bit unfair to criticize Edmunds for not yet reflecting a price cut and newfound tax credit eligibility that happened only 48 hours ago. And insurance costs vary a lot based on drivers, place, and circumstance, even if you can get insurance for cheaper than they say.

Fair point; I suppose it's not entirely a criticism of Edmunds, but rather the TCO post that was made *after* the price drops were revealed and discussed, using outdated pricing.  Someone brought up the lower price, then a "rebuttal" was made with TCO using numbers before the price change.  However, there are still some sketchy values used IMO.

So I think it's fair to point out that the current TCO for a base M3 is potentially around $20,000 lower than the numbers shown by Edmunds.  If someone were going to consider spending $32k on a Toyota Camry in order to have a lower TCO compared to a Tesla M3, current numbers sway things quite a bit.

[GilesMM]

The last couple years have blown all depreciation models out of the water. Many were not all that great before that. It is more art than science.


Imagine the sudden depreciation of a Tesla purchased  before the price drop. Terrible!

[lemonlyman]

Bolts are flying right now. I’ve tried to get one before IRS clarifies the tax credit in March and the credit halves, but haven’t been able to. The 75k GM is making this year is not close to enough. Those listed as in transit are usually purchased already. Oh well.

[JLee]

Tesla just announced new price cuts, for example dropping the Model Y from $65k to $52K.  They seem to be selling very slowly these days.

Oh great! It went from Stupid expensive to just Idioticlly expensive! Now I'd only have to drive 800,000 miles to make it worth it over a basic ICE car.. Tesla continue to not make sense

The Model Y previously had a 5 year cost of ownership $17k higher than a Ford F150 Crew Cab, but these price cuts might bring it down to nearly the 5 year cost of owning a Model 3. Woo hoo, we're saving money!

We're down to the point where it only costs $14,000 more to drive a 2022 Tesla for five years than it costs to drive a 2023 Toyota Camry. I suppose we need to pick a number and say that's a Mustachian premium to pay for the brand name and the signals it sends.

I wonder how these numbers would come out if some of the numbers were remotely accurate updated with current prices being discussed.  For example, M3 base price is now $45,000; Edmunds is using $52,000.  They also used a $1500 tax credit, rather than $7500.  In my state, the total tax credit is $8250.  Wonder how things would look if the cost to own used real numbers current numbers?  Just these two things lower the cost almost $14,000.  Maintenance cost doesn't look horribly unreasonable....tires I guess within 5 years.  Maybe two sets of tires would use up some of that.  Don't get me wrong.....I'm not arguing Tesla is the high value, frugal option.  Just that those numbers are meaninglessly inaccurate (when responding to someone who brings up the new lower pricing).

Ok, just checked another data point to see if that TCO estimate is reasonable.....they have $10,757 for insurance......well somehow I have a ten year policy cost of $7900 for two drivers on both a 2023 Tesla M3 AWD(more expensive version) and a 2022 Kia Niro EV.  So let's call it $4,000 for just a base model Tesla.  $5k if we want to exaggerate, which is $5,700 less than Edmunds.  So now, we are off by $19000, and this doesn't address lower depreciation, lower taxes, and lower interest as a result of lower cost i.e. $45k vs $52k.  These quick napkin math corrections easily put a brand new Tesla M3 below the Camry in TCO since their numbers are inflated by over $20k

Using last week's pricing of $65,990 (no idea how Edmunds managed to get up to $79k for "total cash price") and subtracting $39k in depreciation, the obvious play is to buy a 5yo Model Y for $27k.

The Model Y started deliveries in March 2020.  Who wants to bet that 2020 Model Y's will be $27k in two years?

[JLee]

Bolts are flying right now. I’ve tried to get one before IRS clarifies the tax credit in March and the credit halves, but haven’t been able to. The 75k GM is making this year is not close to enough. Those listed as in transit are usually purchased already. Oh well.

My SO spent an entire day (or more) calling dealers and she found a customer order that had been cancelled - they're selling it to her at MSRP. If you're super persistent and call every dealer in a 100 mile radius, you might find something!

The last couple years have blown all depreciation models out of the water. Many were not all that great before that. It is more art than science.


Imagine the sudden depreciation of a Tesla purchased  before the price drop. Terrible!

Yeah that would be exceedingly unfortunate.  I was on the other side of that coin and sold my Model 3 in November for $110 more than I paid for it new in March 2020, after 32 months and 29,303 miles.

[Scandium]

I worry about the Botl being cheaply and poorly built and simply falling apart. Or catching fire.

Exactly. I don't even consider american cars, as they are and always have been consistently garbage. The QC issues on Tesla are laughable, and seem to track with Elon's personality.. European cars are either junk as well, or if they're german; over-engineered, tons of failure points, and super expensive to maintain. Only ever look at asian cars, but mostly just Toyota and Honda. Did some research on Kia, and supposedly improved reliability now, but before that; trash. Hyundai I'm also not sure about. (Actually,cars are just awful in general, wish I didn't have to use one..)

[grantmeaname]

Why would Kia and Hyundai have different reliability, especially for twinned cars like the Niro/Kona?

[GilesMM]

I worry about the Botl being cheaply and poorly built and simply falling apart. Or catching fire.

Exactly. I don't even consider american cars, as they are and always have been consistently garbage. The QC issues on Tesla are laughable, and seem to track with Elon's personality.. European cars are either junk as well, or if they're german; over-engineered, tons of failure points, and super expensive to maintain. Only ever look at asian cars, but mostly just Toyota and Honda. Did some research on Kia, and supposedly improved reliability now, but before that; trash. Hyundai I'm also not sure about. (Actually,cars are just awful in general, wish I didn't have to use one..)

JD Power ranks Kia and Hyundai ahead of Toyota, and everyone else.

[TomTX]

Tesla just announced new price cuts, for example dropping the Model Y from $65k to $52K.  They seem to be selling very slowly these days.

Super slow! They only increased deliveries by 40% in 2022 compared to a 50% goal, though I think that was a production goal where actual production was 47%! :D

Whereas it took GM until 2022 to finally produce more Bolts in a year than the first full year of production way back in 2017.

[Scandium]

I worry about the Botl being cheaply and poorly built and simply falling apart. Or catching fire.

Exactly. I don't even consider american cars, as they are and always have been consistently garbage. The QC issues on Tesla are laughable, and seem to track with Elon's personality.. European cars are either junk as well, or if they're german; over-engineered, tons of failure points, and super expensive to maintain. Only ever look at asian cars, but mostly just Toyota and Honda. Did some research on Kia, and supposedly improved reliability now, but before that; trash. Hyundai I'm also not sure about. (Actually,cars are just awful in general, wish I didn't have to use one..)

JD Power ranks Kia and Hyundai ahead of Toyota, and everyone else.

Those rankings are always sketch, as well as the laughable consumer reports "reliability of car that was released 2 months ago" rankings. Like I said I don't know much about Kia and Hyundai so I'll have to research them more. And yes I have read they have gotten "better". In the last 4-5 years or so? But at least for the models I looked at last time I bought a car they were not favorable vs the honda and toyota.

This does not show particularily well for either
https://www.dashboard-light.com/reports/QualityIndexRating.html
Neither is the brand ranking, both below industry average
https://www.dashboard-light.com/reports/Kia.html

For the 7-seat SUVs we looked at both kia and hyundai did not look impressive. Honda pilot and Highlander far superior. (and the Sorento is a real stinker)
https://www.dashboard-light.com/reports/Mid-size_SUV.html

I know these are not EVs, but assume some of the data/trends carry over.

Edit; methodology for JD power states:
"focuses on problems experienced by original owners of 3-year-old vehicles."!!
https://www.jdpower.com/business/automotive/us-vehicle-dependability-study
Yes, exactly, almost completely worthless IMO! I've never owned a car younger than 3 years, and probably never will! And I think was mentioned upthread, they consider things such as infotainment and driving assist failures, and I found nothing about weighting them vs engine failures. Having to firmware upgrade my infotainment or replace a wiper motor is a vastly different thing than replacing the gearbox!
I really don't care about failures after 3 years, or even 6-7 years. I want to know how likely are mayor powertrain and engine issues once the car hits 80-100k miles and up. That's when things start to cost, and what sets the brands apart whether you can keep the clunker going to 200k miles, or having to scrap it at 100.
E.G. JBpower loves the kia sorento. Yet dashbord light show that at 122k miles average, 18% have engine issues and 7% transmission issues... No thanks. Numbers for Toyota highlander are about half that.

[Paper Chaser]

Tesla just announced new price cuts, for example dropping the Model Y from $65k to $52K.  They seem to be selling very slowly these days.

Super slow! They only increased deliveries by 40% in 2022 compared to a 50% goal, though I think that was a production goal where actual production was 47%! :D

Whereas it took GM until 2022 to finally produce more Bolts in a year than the first full year of production way back in 2017.

It's disingenuous to compare Tesla scaling as fast as possible for their survival to GM who really had very little interest in selling Bolts.

The Bolt existed because GM wanted an EV option. They wanted to evolve their Voltec experience into something else, while having an option available for compliance. But they determined that it should be a small hatchback with limited appeal because when it was developed $/kwh was still super high. They had very little motivation to make or sell very many of them when much more profitable vehicles were right next to it in the showroom. If they had been serious about selling a lot of Bolts, they would've been a form factor that people actually want to buy, they would've produced them at a plant(s) capable of meeting higher demand, and you would've seen some marketing from them and education for their dealers. It was to learn and grow with minimal impact on their books.

Now that $/kwh has dropped significantly, (and profitability has improved as a result) you see most OEMs investing at a rate similar to Tesla, and they're coming out with competitive options in segments that buyers have shown actual demand for (CUVs, trucks, etc).

[TomTX]

Tesla just announced new price cuts, for example dropping the Model Y from $65k to $52K.  They seem to be selling very slowly these days.

Super slow! They only increased deliveries by 40% in 2022 compared to a 50% goal, though I think that was a production goal where actual production was 47%! :D

Whereas it took GM until 2022 to finally produce more Bolts in a year than the first full year of production way back in 2017.

It's disingenuous to compare Tesla scaling as fast as possible for their survival to GM who really had very little interest in selling Bolts.

I completely disagree.

Tesla was losing money (lots of money!) until 2H 2019 - by investing in scaling up, which paid off in actually making a rather significant profit on EVs. According to you, GM intentionally and publicly lied about their plans to ramp Bolt production. I don't see how that looks any better for GM.

[Paper Chaser]

Tesla just announced new price cuts, for example dropping the Model Y from $65k to $52K.  They seem to be selling very slowly these days.

Super slow! They only increased deliveries by 40% in 2022 compared to a 50% goal, though I think that was a production goal where actual production was 47%! :D

Whereas it took GM until 2022 to finally produce more Bolts in a year than the first full year of production way back in 2017.

It's disingenuous to compare Tesla scaling as fast as possible for their survival to GM who really had very little interest in selling Bolts.

I completely disagree.

Tesla was losing money (lots of money!) until 2H 2019 - by investing in scaling up, which paid off in actually making a rather significant profit on EVs. According to you, GM intentionally and publicly lied about their plans to ramp Bolt production. I don't see how that looks any better for GM.

I don't recall GM talking about Bolt production ramps, or scaling that tech into other models. Please share some links if you can find some because I'm out of luck. The goals that I'm aware of mentioned targets of 25k Bolts per year, and outside of the very first year it looks like they sold 20-25k per year in North America.

$/KWH was too high when the Bolt was developed for them to have any desire to sell a ton of them. Tesla's investors were willing to tolerate losses and massive capex during that time. GM's shareholders were not. It would've violated fiduciary duty to their shareholders. Now that $/kwh has fallen (almost perfectly inline with GM's predictions from 2015), that no longer holds and they can accelerate Bolt production to use up hardware in the pipeline while they switch everything else to their new, more efficient Ultium architecture.

https://insideevs.com/news/327874/lg-chem-ticked-off-with-gm-for-disclosing-145-kwh-battery-cell-pricing-video/



They sell 250-300k Equinoxes per year in the US alone. If they'd been interested in selling a bunch of EV's, GM could've lifted the Bolt and called it an EV Equinox and had all of the sales they wanted. Instead, they kept it a small hatchback in an era where OEMs were cancelling small hatches left and right, and decided to make it in a plant with a production cap of 25k per year. Those aren't the actions of a company trying to sell as many of their widgets as possible. Now that $/KWH has fallen, you see GM and other OEMs making a more concerted effort to produce EVs in volume. This is evidenced by making them available in desirable form factors that customers want, devoting massive cap ex toward their production, having high production goals, and actually marketing them to consumers. None of which happened in the past when costs were higher and profits were lower. I don't think that's a coincidence.

[lemonlyman]

Here's some:

GM: 20 EV models by 2023
https://mashable.com/article/gm-electric-vehicle-goals
https://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmuller/2017/10/02/gm-plots-all-electric-future-with-20-new-evs-and-fuel-cell-vehicles-coming-by-2023/?sh=419bb2eb76ec

They're going to get to 9 (I think). Pretty solid effort still, but no one will mention the miss because only Tesla misses targets :P  The 20 were going to use improvements on the Bolt platform as well. This was before Ultium was designed.

Increase Bolt Production 20% but it actually declined from 2018 into 2019 by 30%
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/07/mary-barra-gm-ceraweek-chevy-bolt.html
https://gmauthority.com/blog/2019/01/chevrolet-bolt-ev-sales-numbers-figures-results-q4-2018/

It's not a bad thing. Business plans change and evolve, but they've already announced they'll be running at a loss on EVs until 2025, not sure how that fits in with your concept of fiduciary duty to shareholders. The market obviously could have sustained a higher price EV than the Bolt since 2018. Cool they’re making EV bottom up Equinox and Blazer tho, but they just got caught ball watching what Tesla did instead of bringing out a good EV product the past 5 years

They aren't the only ones. Ford guided 16 EVs by 2022. They made 3.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autoshow-detroit-ford-motor/ford-plans-11-billion-investment-40-electrified-vehicles-by-2022-idUSKBN1F30YZ

[Paper Chaser]

Here's some:

GM: 20 EV models by 2023
https://mashable.com/article/gm-electric-vehicle-goals
https://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmuller/2017/10/02/gm-plots-all-electric-future-with-20-new-evs-and-fuel-cell-vehicles-coming-by-2023/?sh=419bb2eb76ec

They're going to get to 9 (I think). Pretty solid effort still, but no one will mention the miss because only Tesla misses targets :P  The 20 were going to use improvements on the Bolt platform as well. This was before Ultium was designed.

Increase Bolt Production 20% but it actually declined from 2018 into 2019 by 30%
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/07/mary-barra-gm-ceraweek-chevy-bolt.html
https://gmauthority.com/blog/2019/01/chevrolet-bolt-ev-sales-numbers-figures-results-q4-2018/

It's not a bad thing. Business plans change and evolve, but they've already announced they'll be running at a loss on EVs until 2025, not sure how that fits in with your concept of fiduciary duty to shareholders. The market obviously could have sustained a higher price EV than the Bolt since 2018. Cool they’re making EV bottom up Equinox and Blazer tho, but they just got caught ball watching what Tesla did instead of bringing out a good EV product the past 5 years

They aren't the only ones. Ford guided 16 EVs by 2022. They made 3.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autoshow-detroit-ford-motor/ford-plans-11-billion-investment-40-electrified-vehicles-by-2022-idUSKBN1F30YZ

As far as I can tell, most of these articles all tie back to an event and this related press release from GM which mentions a "2 pronged approach" using fuel cell electric and battery electric vehicles. I'm guessing that the fuel cell stuff (which was supposed to be in production in 2020) made up a large part of the 23 EVs they had planned, and those are currently nowhere to be found:

https://news.gm.com/newsroom.detail.html/Pages/news/us/en/2017/oct/1002-electric.html

This article has some direct quotes from the event:

https://jalopnik.com/gm-joins-electric-revolution-and-plans-20-evs-by-2023-1819064357

It mentions "The first two electric vehicles GM plans to introduce in the next 18 months will be based off knowledge gained from the all-electric Chevrolet Bolt, GM said. At a press event Monday to announce the event, the company said other vehicles will feature an “all-new battery system".   That "all new battery system" ended up being Ultium of course, which was always intended to be the scale-able, profitable battery architecture for GM.

It also mentions the press were shown 3 general clay models. One of which was a cube-like people mover for urban areas, which seems a lot like the Cruise Origin that was released in early 2020:

https://www.motortrend.com/features/cruise-origin-gm-autonomous-car-pod-things-to-know/

The other was the Buick Velite 7, which is basically the Buick version of what we now know as the Bolt EUV. It was developed for the Chinese market and went on sale there in 2020. It was shown in GM's product planning documents as early as 2017:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buick_Velite_7

This article has some appropriate information from GM about their expected EV profitability ($87/kwh by 2025 plays a big part of it) as well as the high profit ICE truck and SUV sales funding the current attempts to scale:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/samabuelsamid/2022/11/17/gm-targets-ev-profitability-by-2025/?sh=546e58a8a303

They're basically using ICE profits to fund their ramp the way that Tesla used investor funds to support their ramp. With battery costs being what they were, that would've been an inefficient path in recent years, and they had no long term plans to ramp anything but Ultium. 2025 will also be the time when the Silverado EV, Equinox EV, Blazer EV, etc are likely to be hitting their production stride, which probably isn't a coincidence either.

[GilesMM]

In 3Q2022 Tesla sold about 343,000 cars.  If they made $12,000 profit on each (the haircut they just took on the Model Y being the source of the estimate), they will be short $4.4B which is not far off for their 3Q2022 $3.3B earnings.   So, on the one hand, I am stunned when an automaker can nonchalantly slash prices by such a large fraction of the sales price as it suggests they have huge margins in there. On the other hand, I am concerned what it will do to their profits if it is most or all of their margin.

[lemonlyman]

In 3Q2022 Tesla sold about 343,000 cars.  If they made $12,000 profit on each (the haircut they just took on the Model Y being the source of the estimate), they will be short $4.4B which is not far off for their 3Q2022 $3.3B earnings.   So, on the one hand, I am stunned when an automaker can nonchalantly slash prices by such a large fraction of the sales price as it suggests they have huge margins in there. On the other hand, I am concerned what it will do to their profits if it is most or all of their margin.

Depends on the decline in incremental COGS per unit. 405,000 delivered in Q4 while two factories have been ramping production throughout the year, inflated fixed commodity contracts are renewed at lower rates, and their own 4680 battery program ramps.  So knowing the price is one one part of the equation but we don’t know cost yet for 2023.

But the main driver of the cut was obviously getting the model Y in price compliance with the tax credit. The IRS did not qualify the 5 seat Y as an SUV for the $80,000 limit, only the 7 seat Y. So for the tax credit, they chose volume demand lever over margin or making the 7 seat standard or waiting for GM to protest for the Lyriq.

[tennisray]

I bought a Bolt EUV on Jan 3rd with $2000 Uber discount and $500 Costco discount. Plus eligible for $7500. Then wife ordered a Tesla Y after the price drop. Spent a lot of $ quickly, but our other cars were 11.5 and 15.5 years old.  Hopefully these will last until we have driverless car fleets.

[Weathering]

I have a Bolt EUV arriving next week and placed an order for a Tesla model Y this past Saturday. I’m only going to buy one of the two and I’m totally conflicted.

Love the EUV from test driving it. A little concerned for small things like no integrated garage door opener (homelink) and yellow/green stitching on nice gray leather interior (why!??). My premier (no packages) will be $36,300 out the door and it qualifies for both the California $2k EV rebate and $7.5k Fed tax credit. Net of $27k

The model Y would be a great 10+ year car for us. The 81KW battery is easily worth $10k over the Bolt’s 65KW. I really don’t like the glass roof (too much sun).  At $53,990 the out-the-door price is $61k. It doesn’t qualify for the California $2k EV rebate, but does for the $7.5$K fed tax credit. Net of $53.5k

I wouldn’t be using either of these EVs for long trips. We have an ICE SUV that we enjoy using for long trips and camping.

Unless something changes, I’ll be bringing home the Bolt EUV. If it lasts 10 years then I would consider it a very good deal.

[shuffler]

I have a Bolt EUV arriving next week ...

Same here.  (But the LT -- no leather because dogs.)

The model Y  ... The 81KW battery is easily worth $10k over the Bolt’s 65KW.
...
I wouldn’t be using either of these EVs for long trips.

I don't understand your thinking here.
It's a modest (303/247 = 22%) increase in range.
How are you valuing that small delta so highly, when you won't be driving long?

I ask this as someone currently driving a 2015 Nissan Leaf with 11/12 bars, giving ~55 miles of range when charged to 80%.  I see Bolt's ~250 miles as an embarrassment of riches, which I'll use to get out to the mountains a couple times a week now that I'm semi-FIRE.
I hope my wife will take over the Leaf and give up her ICE, but if not it'll go to a family member, or sell for about the same $7k I paid for it back in 2017.

Unless something changes, I’ll be bringing home the Bolt EUV. If it lasts 10 years then I would consider it a very good deal.

Good choice!  I bet it will.

I made the decision when I saw that the battery guidance was delayed for a couple months, and the Bolt would be eligible for full-credit in that window.
I'm also happy for the up-to $1000 rebate for getting the 220v installed at my house.  It'll be right next to my panel, and no drywall, so it should be less than that amount in total.  I've been charging my Leaf on a standard 110v these several years.

[Paper Chaser]

The model Y  ... The 81KW battery is easily worth $10k over the Bolt’s 65KW.
...
I wouldn’t be using either of these EVs for long trips.

I don't understand your thinking here.
It's a modest (303/247 = 22%) increase in range.

Also worth noting that Tesla uses a different approach to certifying range than most other OEMs:
https://insideevs.com/news/586646/how-tesla-wins-on-epa-estimated-range/

That means that EPA rated range for most EV's ends up being more conservative than what many drivers in the real world achieve. Edmunds has compiled a handy list of EV's and their EPA rated range vs what they've been able to achieve using similar testing methods in the real world. Tesla's tend to underperform their rated range, while other EVs tend to over perform:

https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/electric-car-range-and-consumption-epa-vs-edmunds.html

[GilesMM]

Used Telsa prices are "in freefall", according to Doug DeMuro, due to interest rates, real estate crash, tech crash, Musk and competition.


https://fortune.com/2023/01/16/tesla-elon-musk-used-car-prices-doug-demuro/

[Weisass]

It is amazing to me how a post that started exploring a relatively affordable 2023 Chevy Bolt transformed into a luxury spendypants story about buying a Tesla.....

[Scandium]

I have a Bolt EUV arriving next week and placed an order for a Tesla model Y this past Saturday. I’m only going to buy one of the two and I’m totally conflicted.

Love the EUV from test driving it. A little concerned for small things like no integrated garage door opener (homelink) and yellow/green stitching on nice gray leather interior (why!??). My premier (no packages) will be $36,300 out the door and it qualifies for both the California $2k EV rebate and $7.5k Fed tax credit. Net of $27k

The model Y would be a great 10+ year car for us. The 81KW battery is easily worth $10k over the Bolt’s 65KW. I really don’t like the glass roof (too much sun).  At $53,990 the out-the-door price is $61k. It doesn’t qualify for the California $2k EV rebate, but does for the $7.5$K fed tax credit. Net of $53.5k

I wouldn’t be using either of these EVs for long trips. We have an ICE SUV that we enjoy using for long trips and camping.

Unless something changes, I’ll be bringing home the Bolt EUV. If it lasts 10 years then I would consider it a very good deal.

This is where I don't understand buying new cars. Checking cars.com, in my area a used Bolt EV is ~$21k (the EUV vs EV seems to be only styling? So doesn't matter). A used Tesla Y is about $45k (and I note several have "price drop" on the listing..) So even after rebates you'd save $6k or almost $10k. You'd be paying about 20% more, for what? A few miles less on the car? But still does the same thing.. Totally doesn't seem worth it.

[JLee]

I have a Bolt EUV arriving next week and placed an order for a Tesla model Y this past Saturday. I’m only going to buy one of the two and I’m totally conflicted.

Love the EUV from test driving it. A little concerned for small things like no integrated garage door opener (homelink) and yellow/green stitching on nice gray leather interior (why!??). My premier (no packages) will be $36,300 out the door and it qualifies for both the California $2k EV rebate and $7.5k Fed tax credit. Net of $27k

The model Y would be a great 10+ year car for us. The 81KW battery is easily worth $10k over the Bolt’s 65KW. I really don’t like the glass roof (too much sun).  At $53,990 the out-the-door price is $61k. It doesn’t qualify for the California $2k EV rebate, but does for the $7.5$K fed tax credit. Net of $53.5k

I wouldn’t be using either of these EVs for long trips. We have an ICE SUV that we enjoy using for long trips and camping.

Unless something changes, I’ll be bringing home the Bolt EUV. If it lasts 10 years then I would consider it a very good deal.

This is where I don't understand buying new cars. Checking cars.com, in my area a used Bolt EV is ~$21k (the EUV vs EV seems to be only styling? So doesn't matter). A used Tesla Y is about $45k (and I note several have "price drop" on the listing..) So even after rebates you'd save $6k or almost $10k. You'd be paying about 20% more, for what? A few miles less on the car? But still does the same thing.. Totally doesn't seem worth it.

The EUV is bigger - they are different cars. The cheapest used EUV within 100 miles of me is $29,925.  A new one is about the same price, less a $7500 tax credit.

Are you comparing used base models to new premium models? The cheapest Bolt EV within 100 miles is of me $19,682 and it's a 2017 LT with 68,948 miles on it. A new LT is $27,495 minus $7500, so $19,995.

[lemonlyman]

Used Bolts can also get the used tax credit of 30% up to $4,000. It has a lot of requirements for qualification but it’s doable with the price.

[grantmeaname]

The used tax credit does have a much lower income limit, though.

[VanillaGorilla]

It is amazing to me how a post that started exploring a relatively affordable 2023 Chevy Bolt transformed into a luxury spendypants story about buying a Tesla.....

It's pretty jarring reading classic MMM posts about cars and then seeing half the forum threads gleefully exclaiming how a Tesla is such an incredible deal now that it's comparable in cost to a F-150. A lot of "spending your way to FI" going on these days.

I'll stick with my 10 year old 50mpg hybrid. A new car is not justifiable to me, electric or not.

[Scandium]

I have a Bolt EUV arriving next week and placed an order for a Tesla model Y this past Saturday. I’m only going to buy one of the two and I’m totally conflicted.

Love the EUV from test driving it. A little concerned for small things like no integrated garage door opener (homelink) and yellow/green stitching on nice gray leather interior (why!??). My premier (no packages) will be $36,300 out the door and it qualifies for both the California $2k EV rebate and $7.5k Fed tax credit. Net of $27k

The model Y would be a great 10+ year car for us. The 81KW battery is easily worth $10k over the Bolt’s 65KW. I really don’t like the glass roof (too much sun).  At $53,990 the out-the-door price is $61k. It doesn’t qualify for the California $2k EV rebate, but does for the $7.5$K fed tax credit. Net of $53.5k

I wouldn’t be using either of these EVs for long trips. We have an ICE SUV that we enjoy using for long trips and camping.

Unless something changes, I’ll be bringing home the Bolt EUV. If it lasts 10 years then I would consider it a very good deal.

This is where I don't understand buying new cars. Checking cars.com, in my area a used Bolt EV is ~$21k (the EUV vs EV seems to be only styling? So doesn't matter). A used Tesla Y is about $45k (and I note several have "price drop" on the listing..) So even after rebates you'd save $6k or almost $10k. You'd be paying about 20% more, for what? A few miles less on the car? But still does the same thing.. Totally doesn't seem worth it.

The EUV is bigger - they are different cars. The cheapest used EUV within 100 miles of me is $29,925.  A new one is about the same price, less a $7500 tax credit.

Are you comparing used base models to new premium models? The cheapest Bolt EV within 100 miles is of me $19,682 and it's a 2017 LT with 68,948 miles on it. A new LT is $27,495 minus $7500, so $19,995.

Not from what I read. Range is the same too, you know; what actually matters..
"Realistically, the differences are minimal. The EUV offers a more rugged exterior styling with an SUV-style body, while the EV maintains its compact, hatchback body style. The powertrain, battery and range are all the same. The EUV offers more backseat room, while the EV offers more storage space"
https://www.pattersonkilgore.com/chevy-bolt-ev-bolt-euv-differences/

I just compared the cheapest bolt on cars.com. I never get "premium" nonsense (to look cool..?), and assumed frugal people would be the same.. (edit: think it was 40k mi for $22k, no idea on trim). I guess if you NEED more back seat space? But then why buy a $30k+ car? Just get a used Fit for ~30-40% less!

If a new is less than used? Uhh..? That just sounds dumb? Yes there is the used EV tax credit, but at least in our case we're not eligible.

[Peachtea]

I have a Bolt EUV arriving next week and placed an order for a Tesla model Y this past Saturday. I’m only going to buy one of the two and I’m totally conflicted.

Love the EUV from test driving it. A little concerned for small things like no integrated garage door opener (homelink) and yellow/green stitching on nice gray leather interior (why!??). My premier (no packages) will be $36,300 out the door and it qualifies for both the California $2k EV rebate and $7.5k Fed tax credit. Net of $27k

The model Y would be a great 10+ year car for us. The 81KW battery is easily worth $10k over the Bolt’s 65KW. I really don’t like the glass roof (too much sun).  At $53,990 the out-the-door price is $61k. It doesn’t qualify for the California $2k EV rebate, but does for the $7.5$K fed tax credit. Net of $53.5k

I wouldn’t be using either of these EVs for long trips. We have an ICE SUV that we enjoy using for long trips and camping.

Unless something changes, I’ll be bringing home the Bolt EUV. If it lasts 10 years then I would consider it a very good deal.

This is where I don't understand buying new cars. Checking cars.com, in my area a used Bolt EV is ~$21k (the EUV vs EV seems to be only styling? So doesn't matter). A used Tesla Y is about $45k (and I note several have "price drop" on the listing..) So even after rebates you'd save $6k or almost $10k. You'd be paying about 20% more, for what? A few miles less on the car? But still does the same thing.. Totally doesn't seem worth it.

The EUV is bigger - they are different cars. The cheapest used EUV within 100 miles of me is $29,925.  A new one is about the same price, less a $7500 tax credit.

Are you comparing used base models to new premium models? The cheapest Bolt EV within 100 miles is of me $19,682 and it's a 2017 LT with 68,948 miles on it. A new LT is $27,495 minus $7500, so $19,995.

Not from what I read. Range is the same too, you know; what actually matters..
"Realistically, the differences are minimal. The EUV offers a more rugged exterior styling with an SUV-style body, while the EV maintains its compact, hatchback body style. The powertrain, battery and range are all the same. The EUV offers more backseat room, while the EV offers more storage space"
https://www.pattersonkilgore.com/chevy-bolt-ev-bolt-euv-differences/

I just compared the cheapest bolt on cars.com. I never get "premium" nonsense (to look cool..?), and assumed frugal people would be the same.. (edit: think it was 40k mi for $22k, no idea on trim). I guess if you NEED more back seat space? But then why buy a $30k+ car? Just get a used Fit for ~30-40% less!

If a new is less than used? Uhh..? That just sounds dumb? Yes there is the used EV tax credit, but at least in our case we're not eligible.

If you qualify for the tax credit new is less than used. If the 21k used car you found is a basic EV, those are 19k new after the tax credit. I just bought a new 2022 EUV. It was 22k after the tax credit. And while we meet the new tax credit requirements we're at the border for the used, so even from a dealer we might not get the 4k used tax credit The cheapest basic Bolt EV near me (50 miles) is 26,500 for a 2020...the same as as a new 2023 Bolt EV except it doesn't qualify for the $7500 tax credit (and at 26k+ it doesn't even  qualify for the used tax credit). So even comparing an older basic Bolt EV to a newer EUV, if you qualify for the tax credit, you come out ahead or at awash on new vs used. The "good deals" on used 2018 volt's were 23-25k. We test drove a 2019 Bolt EV that was listed at 25k. I got a new car for less than a 5 year old one. It's crazy but that's the market right now.