2023 Chevy Bolt

[EchoStache]

when equipped with the optional heated seats and steering wheel(an almost necessity for cold weather driving/range)

I've lived and driven in Canada my whole life . . . and for a good chunk of that I was living in Northern Ontario where temperatures regularly dipped below -40 for months at a time and if you didn't plug in your block heater you weren't going to get your car to start because the antifreeze would all freeze up.

I've never, ever considered heated seats and a heated steering wheel important for cold weather driving.  Which part of the deep artic do you live in?

These features help EV's achieve significantly more range in cold weather compared to relying solely on cabin heat to stay warm due to the drastically lower energy consumption.  Range is a big issue for EV's.  Cold weather drastically reduces range even without using heat.  Using heat on top of that can take a 260 mile EV to 125 in cold weather at highway speeds.  If you owned such a car and had to make a trip on cold weather, you would be glad to have heated seats and steering wheel.  This is nothing like owning an ICE car in cold weather...they are two different things.

[GuitarStv]

when equipped with the optional heated seats and steering wheel(an almost necessity for cold weather driving/range)

I've lived and driven in Canada my whole life . . . and for a good chunk of that I was living in Northern Ontario where temperatures regularly dipped below -40 for months at a time and if you didn't plug in your block heater you weren't going to get your car to start because the antifreeze would all freeze up.

I've never, ever considered heated seats and a heated steering wheel important for cold weather driving.  Which part of the deep artic do you live in?

These features help EV's achieve significantly more range in cold weather compared to relying solely on cabin heat to stay warm due to the drastically lower energy consumption.  Range is a big issue for EV's.  Cold weather drastically reduces range even without using heat.  Using heat on top of that can take a 260 mile EV to 125 in cold weather at highway speeds.  If you owned such a car and had to make a trip on cold weather, you would be glad to have heated seats and steering wheel.  This is nothing like owning an ICE car in cold weather...they are two different things.

Ah . . . fascinating!  I never thought about the difference that an EV would make for heating in the cold.

[Paper Chaser]

Another tactic that can be used is to "pre heat" the cabin of the car while it's plugged in. That will retain your full range and let you start your day without cold touch surfaces.

[1FACTORY174!]

I still don't see a reason for an all electric car or even the thought of solar.If any thing i believe the best bet is a hybrid .

Sent from my SM-A426U using Tapatalk

[MMMarbleheader]

I have set my eyes on the bolt as well.

My wife has a Mazda5 with 163k miles on it and I have a Scion XA with 112k. My scion is great, 38 MPG and its standard so I want to keep it forever.

The Mazda5 we are thinking about keeping but retiring to be only for 1-2 long trips a year and for hauling things around town. The carry costs are pretty minimal so I am justifying keeping it by saying to myself renting a pickup would cost as much once plus having the extra space allows us to get some good free/discount deals. The bolt would be the work horse for driving the kids to schools and activities. In addition to the federal, my state has $2,500 subsidy and the power company $1,500 plus a free charger.

As much as I dont want to pay for a new car, used car prices are nuts. The Dems probably wont get the Senate in 2024 so this might be the best environment to buy a new EV. So to my mustachian friends, is this face punch worthy or a good decision based on 2022 reality??

Also, I see people in here hyping the Pruis prime and saying it has similar range as the Bolt, but I can only find that the 2023 has 40 miles on EV. What am I missing?

[bacchi]

Also, I see people in here hyping the Pruis prime and saying it has similar range as the Bolt, but I can only find that the 2023 has 40 miles on EV. What am I missing?

They mean the Volt rather than the Bolt?

[jrhampt]

The prius prime is a totally different animal from the Bolt.  If you want all-electric with huge range, the Bolt is what you want.  The prius is primarily a hybrid with a small electric range.

[mm1970]

The best I can do to talk you out of the Bolt would be to put it up against a Prius. In 2023 a new model Prius comes out that looks a lot better than the old one. Also, I expect unemployment and recession concerns to start percolating around February or March. Those two factors together will result in a lot of old-style 2022 Priuses sitting on the lots of nervous dealers. That will be an opportunity to pounce and make a below-MSRP offer.

According to Edmunds TCO, the 2022 Prius LE has a 5-year expected cost of ownership of $32,252 in my area. That's within a margin of error of the $31,862 cost to own the Bolt 1LT. Your price negotiations should make up that difference, because there's a much wider band of prices paid for the Prius: https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/compare/Toyota-Prius-vs-Chevrolet-Bolt-EV_d15_d2397#section-used-price

The Prius might be more convenient for you if you want to not worry about range anxiety or if you'd like another 11 cubic ft of trunk space or if you don't need the Bolt's extra leg room.

Final point: All signs indicate we have a recession coming within the next two years. That means both dealers and individuals might soon be desperate to unload new and used inventory. If you can eek by a little longer, the bargains may come to you.

The single most common car to have the catalytic converter stolen from (locally) is the Prius.  Is it still easy to steal in the 2022 Prius?

I still don't see a reason for an all electric car or even the thought of solar.If any thing i believe the best bet is a hybrid .

Sent from my SM-A426U using Tapatalk

I live in California, so basically free power with solar.

[MMMarbleheader]

Also, I see people in here hyping the Pruis prime and saying it has similar range as the Bolt, but I can only find that the 2023 has 40 miles on EV. What am I missing?

They mean the Volt rather than the Bolt?

Ah, reading.

Thanks,

[Just Joe]

I'd start checking real-world prices before you get your hopes up.

I was looking at a Leaf a few months back.  Between there only being premium models available and dealer markups, the cheapest I could find one was $44k.  No thank you.

Hopefully the Bolt is more available in a broader range of trims.

I was just looking at very low mileage Leafs on Car Max. $32K for a car with 20K miles. This would be the top of the line Plus.

[GilesMM]

I'd start checking real-world prices before you get your hopes up.

I was looking at a Leaf a few months back.  Between there only being premium models available and dealer markups, the cheapest I could find one was $44k.  No thank you.

Hopefully the Bolt is more available in a broader range of trims.

I was just looking at very low mileage Leafs on Car Max. $32K for a car with 20K miles. This would be the top of the line Plus.

My local craigslist is full of Leaves.  A 2015 with 100k miles and a NEW battery is asking $8750. Not bad.

[EchoStache]

So far, the only other strong contender for me is a 2016+ Chevy Volt which is a PHEV.  2016 is the year that EV only range increased to 53(from 38), with most owners reporting 60-70 miles of electric range.  This is compelling as it would cover most daily commutes without using any gas.  Road trips would allow 400 miles of range without charging.  Fuel economy after using up all the battery seems to only be around 38-40 mpg, so much lower than a good Prius.  But the trade off is that it has enough range to function as a pure EV for 95% of use.

I'm seeing around $18-$20k after tax for this option.  So this would be $10-$12k cheaper than a new Chevy Bolt.

Pros: cheaper, longer range on road trip without charging
Cons: 5-6 years old with 50-60k+ miles, gas engine, fuel cost, not a full EV.

Is it worth $10k for 5 years newer, brand new, full new car warranty, full EV, no gas ever, lower maintenance, etc.

Tax credits are about the same, so this technically is a better deal in favor of the Volt, since its a higher % of the cost of vehicle.

[secondcor521]

So far, the only other strong contender for me is a 2016+ Chevy Volt which is a PHEV.  2016 is the year that EV only range increased to 53(from 38), with most owners reporting 60-70 miles of electric range.  This is compelling as it would cover most daily commutes without using any gas.  Road trips would allow 400 miles of range without charging.  Fuel economy after using up all the battery seems to only be around 38-40 mpg, so much lower than a good Prius.  But the trade off is that it has enough range to function as a pure EV for 95% of use.

I'm seeing around $18-$20k after tax for this option.  So this would be $10-$12k cheaper than a new Chevy Bolt.

Pros: cheaper, longer range on road trip without charging
Cons: 5-6 years old with 50-60k+ miles, gas engine, fuel cost, not a full EV.

Is it worth $10k for 5 years newer, brand new, full new car warranty, full EV, no gas ever, lower maintenance, etc.

Tax credits are about the same, so this technically is a better deal in favor of the Volt, since its a higher % of the cost of vehicle.

Double check this, but my understanding is that the used EV credit doesn't kick in unless you purchase after 1/1/2023, although we're close to that date now anyway.

My son bought a 2014 Volt about six weeks ago, and he really likes it so far.  His analysis mirrored yours.  His had 100K miles on it, but it looks and drives like new.  Battery life is around 35 miles right now I think.  Roughly speaking he spends about $2 a month on gas.

[EchoStache]

The number of Bolts available, at least in the two colors I'm willing to buy, seem pretty slim at the moment.  I found two that are in transit to a lot about 4 hours from me.  I've reached out to them that I'd like to purchase one of them on January 2nd, so lets see what happens.  They are 1LT versions, black, with heated seats and steering wheel.  So basically the lowest cost option that I would be happy owning at around $28,300.  With one of the discounts I'm eligible for, the total cost may come in slightly under $30k out the door including tax.  I also inquired about the cost to have the car shipped to me rather than driving to get it.  I have to figure out how much a full day of driving and doing paperwork at the dealer is worth compared to the cost of shipping. 

[TreeLeaf]

The number of Bolts available, at least in the two colors I'm willing to buy, seem pretty slim at the moment.  I found two that are in transit to a lot about 4 hours from me.  I've reached out to them that I'd like to purchase one of them on January 2nd, so lets see what happens.  They are 1LT versions, black, with heated seats and steering wheel.  So basically the lowest cost option that I would be happy owning at around $28,300.  With one of the discounts I'm eligible for, the total cost may come in slightly under $30k out the door including tax.  I also inquired about the cost to have the car shipped to me rather than driving to get it.  I have to figure out how much a full day of driving and doing paperwork at the dealer is worth compared to the cost of shipping.

That's awesome!

Just wanted to say as a fellow chevy bolt enthusiast thanks for starting this thread.

I am looking forward to the updates after you buy the car! :)

[Sandi_k]

The number of Bolts available, at least in the two colors I'm willing to buy, seem pretty slim at the moment.  I found two that are in transit to a lot about 4 hours from me.  I've reached out to them that I'd like to purchase one of them on January 2nd, so lets see what happens.  They are 1LT versions, black, with heated seats and steering wheel.  So basically the lowest cost option that I would be happy owning at around $28,300.  With one of the discounts I'm eligible for, the total cost may come in slightly under $30k out the door including tax.  I also inquired about the cost to have the car shipped to me rather than driving to get it.  I have to figure out how much a full day of driving and doing paperwork at the dealer is worth compared to the cost of shipping.

That's awesome!

Just wanted to say as a fellow chevy bolt enthusiast thanks for starting this thread.

I am looking forward to the updates after you buy the car! :)

DH has had one since 2018. He traded the first one in when the fires forced a recall/lemon law buyback in CA. He used the buyback to buy a 2021 model.

It's not the extended body version, but he uses it in his work as a handyman, and is very pleased with it. If there's anything you want to know, I can ask.

[TreeLeaf]

The number of Bolts available, at least in the two colors I'm willing to buy, seem pretty slim at the moment.  I found two that are in transit to a lot about 4 hours from me.  I've reached out to them that I'd like to purchase one of them on January 2nd, so lets see what happens.  They are 1LT versions, black, with heated seats and steering wheel.  So basically the lowest cost option that I would be happy owning at around $28,300.  With one of the discounts I'm eligible for, the total cost may come in slightly under $30k out the door including tax.  I also inquired about the cost to have the car shipped to me rather than driving to get it.  I have to figure out how much a full day of driving and doing paperwork at the dealer is worth compared to the cost of shipping.

That's awesome!

Just wanted to say as a fellow chevy bolt enthusiast thanks for starting this thread.

I am looking forward to the updates after you buy the car! :)

DH has had one since 2018. He traded the first one in when the fires forced a recall/lemon law buyback in CA. He used the buyback to buy a 2021 model.

It's not the extended body version, but he uses it in his work as a handyman, and is very pleased with it. If there's anything you want to know, I can ask.

I mostly wonder about the reliability and maintenance costs.

Has he had any issues with break downs? How long can he drive on a set of brake pads? These sorts of things.

Any issues with the car?

[AdrianC]

We have a '21 Bolt LT bought new in May '21. Now has 30k miles on it. No issues.

It is eligible for a new battery from GM, but we want to get more out of this one first.

It has heated steering wheel and seats. They are a nice feature. Definitely help range, 'cos when we use the cabin heater range drops considerably.

We charge at home on 240V. Never tried DC fast charging.

We like the car a lot. Cheap to run. Fun to drive. I think we'll keep it until it dies.

[Sandi_k]

I mostly wonder about the reliability and maintenance costs.

Has he had any issues with break downs? How long can he drive on a set of brake pads? These sorts of things.

Any issues with the car?

In 4.5 years, he's had no breakdowns or issues with reliability or maintenance. He was at the point of needing new tires on the 2018 MY before he traded it in, so he was jubilant he didn't have to pay for them. ;)

No brake pads have needed to be replaced. He put ~ 36k miles on the first Bolt, and has about 12k miles on this one.

His range (in NorCal) has been successfully tested at 225 miles. He is now following advice to only charge it to 85%, with a calendar reminder to charge fully, if we plan to drive up to his BFF's place, at 150 miles RT, plus evening driving to dinner and a movie, etc.

We use my car - a hybrid RAV4 - for family drives down to SoCal for holidays and other visits.

His only issue thus far is a missing piece of plastic somewhere in the cargo area - I'm not sure of the specifics. He went to the dealer to get one ordered, and they borked the part number and produced the wrong thing when he went to pick it up. So we're now at 5 months, and still waiting for it. The dealership doesn't seem to care.

In short, he's thrilled with it. The ride quality is harsh, IMO, but the newer suspension is better than the older one.

[undercover]

I really like the Bolt…it has a lot going for it, I just don’t know why it has to look so damn boring/borderline ugly.

[desertadapted]

In terms of maintenance costs for a Bolt.  I own a 2018, bought new.  ~85,000 miles on it.  I have spent a total of $300 on non-tire maintenance since I bought the car new.  Some of that was to rebalance the tires.  Some of that was to repair damage done by a vendor who was replacing a cracked windshield.  I infrequently pay $20 to have the tires rotated because I feel bad taking it in to the dealer for routine service and paying nothing.  I had the battery replacement recall (fire issues) but noticed no appreciable battery decline on the original battery before the new one was installed.   Either way, $300 for nearly five years and 85K miles is nice.  It is a small fraction of what we spend on our Subaru for just routine maintenance (yes, an EV and a Subaru - I am a cliche).

Tires.  All EV's are "big boned" and are harder on tires.  I replaced all four at 40K, when I should have just replaced two (to address irreparable tire damage on a tire).   A mistake, but so it goes.  It's looking like I will need to replace all four at 90K due to low tread.  That means ~50K on tires rated for 60K.  The 2018 doesn't have room for a spare tire, so I have tended toward premium self-sealing eco tires.  The first set cost ~$900.  The second set, with the pandemic inflation, is going to be ~$1,200 all in.  There are less expensive options out there for sure, and I could be changing the tires and dealing with disposal myself.  But I don't.    Hope this helps.

[EchoStache]

Wow @desertadapted, that is crazy low maintenance cost for 85,00 miles of driving!!

I'm not throwing in the towel yet with any certainty, but the Bolt is no longer a sure thing for us.  The main issue is the charging speed.  Just for kicks, I punched in directions to a location we are likely to travel to at some point for work.  It's over 24 hours drive.  Then I thought about stopping to charge for 1.5 hours every 150-200 miles(assuming cold weather)......I can't imagine doing this for the next 10 years.  We won't be taking road trips every week or anything, but we *will* be traveling long distances to various assignment locations multiple times/year.

With this in mind, my other top two considerations are some iteration of a long range Tesla Model ($$$$), or a 2016-2019 Chevy Volt($).  The Volt would be the budget choice at $18-$25k or so, has 60 miles EV range for daily commuting, and 3-400 miles range for long trips. The Volt will also give me a $4,000 tax credit i.e. even more than the Bolt.  My wife does not like the idea of a dual system vehicle due to all the added complexity and potential long term maintenance costs.  I like it due to the low cost and would be a full EV for daily driving, and it solves the slow charge issue for long trips. 

So lets see how this pans out.  I intend to make a decision by the first week of January.

[Car Jack]

Part of your decision might be financial.  Certainly, if you have solar on your roof, that's an easy one requiring no math.  I point this out because where I live, we're looking at a 60% electricity cost increase and we already match Hawaii and California.  Also, gas has been dropping like a rock.  I have done the calculations comparing a model 3 single motor to my 19 Subaru Crosstrek and the Crosstrek is far cheaper per mile than the Tesla for me.  Do your own math.

There are great vehicles coming out.  The new Prius looks like the first one ever to not put you to sleep just looking at it.  Nearly 200 hp and AWD available, it could even work for me in the snowy northeast.

If you need the car soon, do the manufacturer's "build and price" and then click the "locate" button.  I know this thread is talking about the Bolt, so I tried it.  Within 2000 miles of me, there are none available and 2 "in transit".  I'd think this means a year wait or huge added markup.

[RWD]

Starting next month it looks like the Bolt will qualify for the $7.5k incentive. But only for a few months until battery-sourcing guidance is issued. This is a pretty unique opportunity which makes a brand new Bolt likely cheaper than a used one. If you're on the fence this is probably the time to make the jump (if you can find one). Worst case I'm sure it could be flipped for what you paid a few months later.
https://electrek.co/2022/12/20/the-chevy-bolt-is-about-to-be-a-screaming-deal-at-least-until-march/

[desertadapted]

@UltraStache
If charge speeds are a factor, run away from the Bolt.  It's a daily driver and is a very slow to recharge on road trips.  I took it on an ~800 mile (RT) trip once.  Never again.  A 7 hour trip turned into 10.5 hours.  If we were a one car family, I would be thinking about an EV with faster charge speeds, like a Tesla.  Two car family?  Bolt is a solid contender because of the low up-front cost.  And the ICE is available for long road trips.  With that said, I have no idea what real world prices are right now.  I've been trying to help a family member buy a car - pretty much all the listings I'm hitting are for cars that aren't actually in stock.  It's a mess out there.

[Scandium]

I also noted that there are different rules for the rebate on used EVs. Most critically the MAGI limit is lower (too low in my case). It's up to $300k MAGI for new.

In addition, the IRA also extended the tax credit to used EVs. This credit maxes out at $4,000, or up to 30% of the vehicle price (whichever is lower), so long as certain criteria are met:

Income limits: Buyers will have to have a MAGI of $150,000 or less for joint filers ($75,000 or less for single filers).
Vehicle price caps: The vehicle must cost $25,000 or less and the model year must be at least two years old.

https://www.schwab.com/learn/story/ev-tax-credit?cmp=em-XCS

[EchoStache]

I'll continue to update until a decision is made, but its looking more and more like the Bolt isn't going to happen for us.  I think its a great option and a fantastically tremendous value for anyone not overly concerned with long distance trips and DC fast charging.  For me it is a concern for another 10 years or more.

I've narrowed my choice down to two options.  The Volt is off the table.  The daily EV range is amazing(maybe the best PHEV period), but the fuel economy in hybrid mode is fair at best at 40 or so.  More importantly, my interest in the car was ONLY practical....I really just don't like the car much at all.  I don't hate it, but its hard for me to spend $20-25k on something thats meh.

So I have one choice that deserves no face punches.  2020ish Hyundai Ioniq PHEV. 29 miles electric range and 55mpg in hybrid mode.  I see them for under 25k with low miles, fantastic factory warranty.

On the other end of the spectrum is a $60k Tesla Model 3.  I can't believe the pull to buy this is as strong as it is.  No way in hell I can justify it financially....the $40,00 cost above the Ioniq route is a pure and simple massive luxury splurge.  A 350 mile range EV with a heat pump, new car warranty, no fuel, low maintenance, possible free energy with solar, extensive fast charging network etc etc, make it an ideal EV choice that can road trip conveniently, plus its crazy fast and looks great. Again, much is just plain luxury face punch spendy pants consumerism.  I have the cash saved up for a Chevy Bolt purchase but not a Tesla.  I would put half down and pay off over 6 months or so in order to keep my emergency reserves at a comfortable level.  The Ioniq would be an easy cash purchase with money left over to shift into FXAIX.  The $30k I would use to pay off the Tesla will funnel into FXAIX over the next 6 months.  I feel like I have a devil on one shoulder and an angel on the other.

I'm rationalizing the Tesla purchase by saying that we will max retirement next year with $75k, and probably still do some brokerage investing even after paying off the Tesla quickly.  So in one sense, I'm not sacrificing the low hanging fruit, but it's definitely not financially optimal.  Test driving a model 3 tonight.  I know this is a bad idea as this will sway the emotions towards a Tesla.  Maybe I should just say F__k it, I like it, I want it, I can afford it(sort of), and just buy it and move on.  But then I worry I'll regret spending so much.

[TreeLeaf]

Well...If you want to save some money on the model 3, they are offering a $7,500 dollar discount now.

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-discounts-models-3s-ys-7500/amp/

[EchoStache]

Wow.................F__k me I think Ima place an order..

[TomTX]

Well...If you want to save some money on the model 3, they are offering a $7,500 dollar discount now.

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-discounts-models-3s-ys-7500/amp/

Note that's only for inventory cars (there aren't many) for delivery this month. Not custom builds.

Tesla always has a very low inventory and tries to clear it to zero at the end of every quarter.

[Sandi_k]

Read up on parts and repairs for Teslas. It would dissuade me.

Our friend had his Model S hit BY A GOLF CART in front of our house. It collided on the rear quarter panel, driver side. Which means it connected close to the charging port.

We cut the bumper away so he could drive home. He's been waiting for 4 months to get a repair estimate and parts for the repair, since the "authorized repair facility" was so backlogged. There is discussion of TOTALING a one year old car, because the frame was apparently bent, and the charging port has therefore knocked off-kilter.

No idea yet if or when it will be fixed.

[GilesMM]

Telsa has pretty appalling reliability/quality (but well ahead of Polestar!).  I would be hesitant.  The company seems to be struggling lately, even more than usual, perhaps partly due to an off-kilter leader.

https://www.theverge.com/2022/6/29/23188085/jd-power-initial-quality-study-2022-tesla-polestar-ev-decline

[TomTX]

Telsa has pretty appalling reliability/quality (but well ahead of Polestar!).  I would be hesitant.  The company seems to be struggling lately, even more than usual, perhaps partly due to an off-kilter leader.

https://www.theverge.com/2022/6/29/23188085/jd-power-initial-quality-study-2022-tesla-polestar-ev-decline

I'm not all that enamored with JD Power ratings. It's "pay to win" - I'd take Consumer Reports any day.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J.D._Power

[GilesMM]

Telsa has pretty appalling reliability/quality (but well ahead of Polestar!).  I would be hesitant.  The company seems to be struggling lately, even more than usual, perhaps partly due to an off-kilter leader.

https://www.theverge.com/2022/6/29/23188085/jd-power-initial-quality-study-2022-tesla-polestar-ev-decline

I'm not all that enamored with JD Power ratings. It's "pay to win" - I'd take Consumer Reports any day.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J.D._Power

JDP is 100% based on consumer feedback and is considered the most reliable source industry.   Consumer Reports only compiled info from CR subscribers (as few as 100 samples), which is a serious bias and flaw in their system.  However, CR considers Tesla one of the least reliable brands as well.

[RWD]

Telsa has pretty appalling reliability/quality (but well ahead of Polestar!).

At least Polestar supports right to repair (source). Good luck if your Tesla needs something. So far (1 year) we've had no issues with our Polestar 2.

[RWD]

JD Powers Initial Quality Survey is basically useless because it only covers the first 90 days (tells you nothing about long-term reliability) and as far as I'm aware they just count number of problems without concern for severity (voice recognition failing to work is considered just as bad as an engine blowing up).

Their Vehicle Dependability Study is more useful because it looks at reliability over the first 3 years. Though I don't see Tesla on their latest list, not sure why. One limitation though is, like the IQS, they only show numbers and full ranking on a brand level and just a little bit on best models per class (but no info on cross-class comparisons). A brand may be good overall but have one really bad model that you wouldn't know to avoid based on their list. Or vice versa, a usually unreliable brand may have one or two really solid models.

Consumer Reports reliability is based on the last year, which is decent. Although the concerns about limited data and selection bias are valid, keep in mind they still get about double the responses as JD Powers' IQS.

Dashboard Light is a really good site for vehicle reliability because they only look at powertrain issues. Though they have pretty sparse data for newer cars and nothing about Teslas, unfortunately.

Car Complaints is another resource, and they do have a section for Tesla. Not a lot of responses there though.

Personally I use multiple sources to determine vehicle reliability. If they all say a car is bad then it probably is.

[GilesMM]

JD Powers Initial Quality Survey is basically useless because it only covers the first 90 days (tells you nothing about long-term reliability) and as far as I'm aware they just count number of problems without concern for severity (voice recognition failing to work is considered just as bad as an engine blowing up).

Except that Initial Quality has proven to be a strong indicator of long term dependability.  You can review for yourself the JDP 2019 IQ vs 2022 Dependability results.  The ranking are about the same.  Genesis, Hyundai and Kia are the best while Land Rover, Jaguar and Alfa Romeo suck. There is some variation, of course.  I think Mazda was the make slightly below average initially that ended up slightly above three years later.

[EchoStache]

Facepunch worthy post incoming.

I ordered a Tesla Model 3 LR AWD with 19" wheels(+$1500) and red paint(+$2,000) on Thursday after the $7500 discount was offered.  I understand full well that this is a financially terrible decision that in no way shape or from can be remotely justified.  My value oriented option was a 2020 Ioniq PHEV for under $25k, probably closer to $20k after rebate.  So the Tesla is fully and completely a $40,000 luxury splurge.  I spent $59,000 total.  I put $30k down which is extra cash I had saved up to pay cash for a Chevy Bolt before changing my mind on that car.  So the Ioniq would have been a straight cash purchase with money left over to invest.

Acknowledging that this was a horribly non-mustachian decision, here is what appeals to me about the Tesla.

1) Maximum range...334 miles.  The RWD would have been significantly cheaper but I wasn't going to buy another EV at any price with less than 300 miles range.  The RWD standard range has 200 miles range on the highway in cold weather...if you drive from 100% to 0, which isn't realistic.  On a road trip, you will only charge to 80% or charging takes much longer,  So 200 mile range is reduced to 160.  Driving until completely dead isn't realistic so actual usable range on a long trip in cold weather is 140-150 miles with the standard range version.  So for me, the long range version was the only option.

2) 2020 model would be quite a bit cheaper and they are plentiful as coming off their 3 year leases.  These cars have a *little* less range but also no heat pump which I think is an important feature for EV's unless you never drive long distance in the cold.

3) I know that I would have been 100% perfectly happy with the Ioniq PHEV.  I would have felt like I made a wise financial decision and felt great about having more money to invest.

4) Wrong or right, I chose to splurge on the Tesla.  I know I will love the car, and plan to pay if off in ~6 months.  Although I only recently(2-3 years or so) got myself onto a good financial path, I'm still on a good trajectory despite this luxury indulgence.  This purchase won't prevent me from maxing out all retirement in 2023($75k), and I've made massive, life altering changes to my financial situation and have become much more frugal overall. Perhaps with the exception of next year while paying off the Tesla, I will be saving 50-60%+ of my income every year until FIRE.  So I'm going to enjoy this splurge without regret.  If, after some time I prefer I hadn't done so, I'll just sell the car and switch to the Ioniq type solution.  Not the end of the world.

Just wanted to share my situation despite being far from optimal....I think its good to share the good and the bad even if it may be viewed as non-mustachian which I wholeheartedly agree is the case.

We test drove a model 3 the day I placed the order.  I figured I would probably like the car, but in reality I like it more than I was expecting.  A fast car is not important to me, but it *is* stupidly fast despite not being a "performance" version of the model 3.  The car seemed much more luxurious than I was expecting.  One pedal driving is much easier to use than on our Kia which requires the correct timing of pulling a steering wheel paddle to bring the car to a complete stop.  The Tesla is much easier and intuitive to drive without using the brakes.  The AWD and traction control is, honestly, astonishing.  It was very cold and very rainy for the test drive.  The car had blistering acceleration with no hint of wheel spin in the rain.  I like the extremely simple layout of the interior.  I would prefer manual buttons for wipers and HVAC, but the car has excellent voice control so I will likely use that extensively as I do not want to use a touch screen for those basic controls.

The charging network, having driven a non Tesla EV for the past 9 months, is vastly and exponentially superior to non-Tesla.  Click the charge icon and it shows all Tesla superchargers in range based on current state of charge.  There were dozens in every direction at 50% state of charge.  Too many to easily count.  Use voice to plot a course, and the car also plots out all chargers to use along the way that are optimal based on the cars range capability.  The car will also automatically pre-condition the battery en-route in order to achieve optimal fast DC charging.  My car will charge at a rate up to 250 kW.  Click on the charging station and it shows how many stalls, speed, stalls in use and available, nearby food and drink options, etc.  I mean, the user friendliness is astonishing. 

Delivery/pickup was scheduled for 12/26 but they found an issue during QC.  An o-ring in the battery cooling system needs to be repair or replaced or something of that nature so delivery is rescheduled for 12/30.

Anyways, I didn't want to leave the thread hanging without an ending.  I'll update when/if we take delivery.  Little concerned about taking delivery by 12/31 which is required for the $7500 discount.

[TreeLeaf]

Awesome! Congrats!

[NorCal]

@UltraStache congrats!

There’s no way around it, that is a face punch worthy financial decision, but it sounds like you’re happy with it.

I made a similar face punch worthy decision and ended up with a Model Y.

Our long term plans involve a long range capable EV for road trips and a smaller cheaper EV for everything else. I made some attempts at the cheaper EV earlier this year. The cheapest Leaf I could find was $44k, and I didn’t particularly care for the Niro when test driving it.  So I’m going to wait a few years on the cheaper EV. 

I picked up a Model Y last month and am very happy with it. Even though it is ridiculously overpriced. I really like the EV6 and Ioniq as well, but they were even less available, and the Tesla charging network was a differentiator for me.

[EchoStache]

Congrats on your model Y!  I'm with you on the cheaper EV...would have definitely gotten the Bolt if road trip ability weren't so important to us out of necessity.

[SpareChange]

Sweet lord baby Jesus cars are expensive....are they required to keep an AED near the finance office these days?

[K_in_the_kitchen]

@UltraStache  The cheapest Leaf I could find was $44k, and I didn’t particularly care for the Niro when test driving it.  So I’m going to wait a few years on the cheaper EV. 

Was that for a Leaf SV Plus with the 62kWh battery?  Earlier this month we bought a lower trim Leaf S with the 40kWh battery at sticker with no dealer add-ons.  It completely sucks to have that be considered a "good" deal, but it is what it is.  Used vs. new prices aren't good, and we won't qualify for the used EV tax credit when it comes into play next month.

We're waiting a few years on the longer range, more expensive EV, lol.

[NorCal]

@UltraStache  The cheapest Leaf I could find was $44k, and I didn’t particularly care for the Niro when test driving it.  So I’m going to wait a few years on the cheaper EV. 

Was that for a Leaf SV Plus with the 62kWh battery?  Earlier this month we bought a lower trim Leaf S with the 40kWh battery at sticker with no dealer add-ons.  It completely sucks to have that be considered a "good" deal, but it is what it is.  Used vs. new prices aren't good, and we won't qualify for the used EV tax credit when it comes into play next month.

We're waiting a few years on the longer range, more expensive EV, lol.

All I recall is the only model available was the highest trim with a $3k markup. I stopped buying paying attention after seeing that price.

[K_in_the_kitchen]

@UltraStache  The cheapest Leaf I could find was $44k, and I didn’t particularly care for the Niro when test driving it.  So I’m going to wait a few years on the cheaper EV. 

Was that for a Leaf SV Plus with the 62kWh battery?  Earlier this month we bought a lower trim Leaf S with the 40kWh battery at sticker with no dealer add-ons.  It completely sucks to have that be considered a "good" deal, but it is what it is.  Used vs. new prices aren't good, and we won't qualify for the used EV tax credit when it comes into play next month.

We're waiting a few years on the longer range, more expensive EV, lol.

All I recall is the only model available was the highest trim with a $3k markup. I stopped buying paying attention after seeing that price.

Makes sense, we could have gotten the highest trim with premium paint, including destination, for sticker price.  Not all of the dealers around us were willing to sell at sticker, but the one closest to us was -- there was a strong desire to move cars in December.

[Weathering]

Is it possible to buy (on January 1) a Bolt that is in transit, or does it need to be physically at the dealer?
I’m strategizing to try to get the discounts that expire on January 3rd.

[RWD]

Is it possible to buy (on January 1) a Bolt that is in transit, or does it need to be physically at the dealer?
I’m strategizing to try to get the discounts that expire on January 3rd.

Last year we signed paperwork for our Polestar on Dec 30th, then took delivery in January. That was enough to get the Federal credit on our 2021 taxes.

[EchoStache]

Picked up the Tesla last night.  3 hour drive, about 175 miles.  2023 M3 LR AWD, 19" wheels.  On the trip home, battery start ~78%.  End ~17%.  Used heat set to 68-70, seat heater, speeds up to 68 mph, mixed driving speeds during the course of the trip.  Efficiency 231 wh/mile.  I think this translates to 4.33 kW/mile for those more familiar with that rating.  Temp was in the 40's, so far from ideal for efficiency but not brutally cold or anything.  Based on that efficiency and the size of the battery(82kW/~78 usable?), this translates to total range of about 338 miles.  I think that's pretty good given conditions above.  So as far as range and efficiency go, I'm happy based on this first trip.

Charged wifes car overnight since it ended much lower on charge.  Plugged mine in this morning and getting 10kW from my stupid(non-smart) Grizzle charger.

Will be bringing the car in for service for two issues:
1)Steering wheel making a scraping noise when turning.  It's *very* noticeable and should have been caught and remedied with QC prior to delivery.  Probably just a simple trim adjustment issue.
2) Front( I assume) electric motor has a much louder hum than I think there should be.

So there's my first hand experience of Tesla's less than class leading QC.  Day one. :)

Overall, the car looks and drives very nice.  I'd say bumps are a bit rougher than our Kia Niro but I think there's no way around that with 19" wheels and low profile tires.  Ride quality is good but the tires just don't have enough side wall to soak up rough bumps.  Audio system is very good.  Road and wind noise at speed are good.....from what I see, BMW and other luxury EV's are significantly quieter but I'd have to ride in them back to back to appreciate it as the Tesla seems reasonably quiet to me.  Way faster than I need it to be.  The car doesn't just pick up speed when you throttle it....it basically *leaps* ahead, best way I can describe it.

Really the most important feature for me is range and charging speed/availability and there is really nothing in the world that can match it in those regards.  Not even close.

Pickup of the car was really really cool.  Quite a unique and far different buying experience than any car I've ever bought before.

The purchase of the car was completely from my phone.  Selection, deposit, financing, insurance, everything from a very well designed app.  Went to pick the car up.  Greeted with no waiting by a dude behind a laptop.  It was a big Tesla center and was a beehive of activity with many many many cars and a supercharger station on site.  The place was packed, cars even parked along the sides but plenty of room still.

After getting my name, guy says, "I turned the flashers on so you can find the car; its over there (points).  Just sign the papers where highlighted and bring them back in.  I'll help if you have any questions."  The car was spotlessly clean and shined up.  Note displayed in the windshield with my name and congratulations.  Little pack of paperwork with about five places to sign.  Dropped the paperwork off back inside and drove off.  Car was charged up to just under 80% for the trip home.

Edit: while typing the post, I scheduled a service visit.  Got a live message from Tesla within minutes and actually chatted back and forth a bit about the exact issue....scheduled service for Jan 2 and he said it's likely just an adjustment needed and that they will have the person there needed to take care of it.  So service response is excellent so far.   Tesla has definitely embraced modern technology extremely well compared to really anyone I've dealt with before.

[Just Joe]

JD Powers Initial Quality Survey is basically useless because it only covers the first 90 days (tells you nothing about long-term reliability) and as far as I'm aware they just count number of problems without concern for severity (voice recognition failing to work is considered just as bad as an engine blowing up).

Except that Initial Quality has proven to be a strong indicator of long term dependability.  You can review for yourself the JDP 2019 IQ vs 2022 Dependability results.  The ranking are about the same.  Genesis, Hyundai and Kia are the best while Land Rover, Jaguar and Alfa Romeo suck. There is some variation, of course.  I think Mazda was the make slightly below average initially that ended up slightly above three years later.

We've owned multiple cars that surveyed poorly that have been very good low TCO cars. I do not put much stock in those quality surveys. As I recall the surveys rely alot on owner opinions. Well there are owners and then there are owners who are baffled by their dome light switch. I prefer the first variety for opinions.

[JLee]

Picked up the Tesla last night.  3 hour drive, about 175 miles.  2023 M3 LR AWD, 19" wheels.  On the trip home, battery start ~78%.  End ~17%.  Used heat set to 68-70, seat heater, speeds up to 68 mph, mixed driving speeds during the course of the trip.  Efficiency 231 wh/mile.  I think this translates to 4.33 kW/mile for those more familiar with that rating.  Temp was in the 40's, so far from ideal for efficiency but not brutally cold or anything.  Based on that efficiency and the size of the battery(82kW/~78 usable?), this translates to total range of about 338 miles.  I think that's pretty good given conditions above.  So as far as range and efficiency go, I'm happy based on this first trip.

Charged wifes car overnight since it ended much lower on charge.  Plugged mine in this morning and getting 10kW from my stupid(non-smart) Grizzle charger.

Will be bringing the car in for service for two issues:
1)Steering wheel making a scraping noise when turning.  It's *very* noticeable and should have been caught and remedied with QC prior to delivery.  Probably just a simple trim adjustment issue.
2) Front( I assume) electric motor has a much louder hum than I think there should be.

So there's my first hand experience of Tesla's less than class leading QC.  Day one. :)

Overall, the car looks and drives very nice.  I'd say bumps are a bit rougher than our Kia Niro but I think there's no way around that with 19" wheels and low profile tires.  Ride quality is good but the tires just don't have enough side wall to soak up rough bumps.  Audio system is very good.  Road and wind noise at speed are good.....from what I see, BMW and other luxury EV's are significantly quieter but I'd have to ride in them back to back to appreciate it as the Tesla seems reasonably quiet to me.  Way faster than I need it to be.  The car doesn't just pick up speed when you throttle it....it basically *leaps* ahead, best way I can describe it.

Really the most important feature for me is range and charging speed/availability and there is really nothing in the world that can match it in those regards.  Not even close.

Pickup of the car was really really cool.  Quite a unique and far different buying experience than any car I've ever bought before.

The purchase of the car was completely from my phone.  Selection, deposit, financing, insurance, everything from a very well designed app.  Went to pick the car up.  Greeted with no waiting by a dude behind a laptop.  It was a big Tesla center and was a beehive of activity with many many many cars and a supercharger station on site.  The place was packed, cars even parked along the sides but plenty of room still.

After getting my name, guy says, "I turned the flashers on so you can find the car; its over there (points).  Just sign the papers where highlighted and bring them back in.  I'll help if you have any questions."  The car was spotlessly clean and shined up.  Note displayed in the windshield with my name and congratulations.  Little pack of paperwork with about five places to sign.  Dropped the paperwork off back inside and drove off.  Car was charged up to just under 80% for the trip home.

Edit: while typing the post, I scheduled a service visit.  Got a live message from Tesla within minutes and actually chatted back and forth a bit about the exact issue....scheduled service for Jan 2 and he said it's likely just an adjustment needed and that they will have the person there needed to take care of it.  So service response is excellent so far.   Tesla has definitely embraced modern technology extremely well compared to really anyone I've dealt with before.

People like to trash talk Tesla service, but I'm not sure how much experience they have with the traditional manufacturers - they don't seem to be great either.  I dropped my Lightning off Dec 7th for a defective inverter (Pro Power bed outlets).  It's still at the dealer, and I might get it back sometime this week (part was supposed to arrive yesterday).