Are women done with men?

[Ron Scott]

Interesting op-ed by Kristof in today’s paper: Less Marriage, Less Sex, Less Agreement

“Women in particular dismissed heterosexual marriage as an outdated institution that pampers men while turning women into unpaid servants.”

“We all say, ‘Never again.’ Men require a lot of care. They can be such babies.”

Young women are becoming significantly more liberal as young men are becoming somewhat more conservative.

Boys and men are lagging in education and much less likely than women to get college degrees. Many of these less educated men struggle in the job market, and increasingly some of them seem to blame their problems on feminism.

Men are becoming grumpier and more resentful of women’s success, and more drawn to conservative authoritarian populists, from Donald Trump to misogynist internet personalities like Andrew Tate.

South Korean feminists have created the 4B movement, which promotes no marriage, no babies, no dating and no sex. South Korea’s total fertility rate has plummeted to one of the lowest in the world, with the average woman now having just 0.7 children.

Some women in America have publicly proclaimed that they are distancing themselves from men, abstaining from sex or going “boy sober.”

In a viral meme on TikTok in which women discuss whether they would rather encounter a bear in the woods or a man. Many go with the bear

Young people are not only marrying less and partnering less; they’re also having less sex.

‘… the fundamental problem is the struggle of men to adapt to a world in which brawn matters less than brains, education and emotional intelligence.”

[Ron Scott]

OP, did you have a question relating this to post-fire life?  Maybe better to put this in the off-topic section.

I’m retired and i actually think the complaints women are voicing are more relevant to men who are no longer working. Perhaps a remnant of traditional roles without the breadwinner component? That would be a good starting point for discussions IMO.

But if people are bothered by a post like this here it can be moved. Sorry it seemed out of place to you.

[2Birds1Stone]

@Ron Scott, I'm beginning to think you have too much free time in your post retired life.

[curious_george]

OP, did you have a question relating this to post-fire life?  Maybe better to put this in the off-topic section.

I’m retired and i actually think the complaints women are voicing are more relevant to men who are no longer working. Perhaps a remnant of traditional roles without the breadwinner component? That would be a good starting point for discussions IMO.

But if people are bothered by a post like this here it can be moved. Sorry it seemed out of place to you.

Are you concerned that being early retired might make dating more challenging?

[Michael in ABQ]

There is a segment of society where this is true - but it's not monolithic. Plenty of young women are still getting married and having kids. But most media is concentrated in large coastal cities so what these writers see around them they extrapolate to be true for the rest of the country/world.

For every woman loudly complaining about how her husband/boyfriend is a lazy jerk (and they may very well be) there are others who are happy and love their husband/boyfriend and their relationship is truly where two become one.

But showcasing happy people doesn't generate clicks or eyeballs, so we only see the negative parts.

[reeshau]

I will say, being retired with a young child in school really surfaces some of these societal assumptions.  I get outright stared at as the only Dad who shows up to the (weekday, daytime) PTO meeting.  Also, the school almost automatically calls DW when needed, even though we list my number first in the contact list.

Even as the teachers brief a mixed group of parents at an evening event, the biases show up.  There is another couple we are good friends with; much younger than us, both in technical jobs, whose oldest is a girl in DS's class.  The mother is trying to raise her daughter to look to STEM fields as a promising career, and it is fingernails on a chalkboard whenever she she shears the female teachers fall into traditional thinking.  I have never subscribed to such thoughts, but seeing her reactions has opened my eyes to how frequent those messages come through.

[Turtle]

Little green soldiers do not care what the gender (or skin color) is of the person who holds them.  Stock dividends are per share held, regardless of who the owner is.  Personal investing is, in a way, the only truly level playing field in modern life.

I have a lot of thoughts on this topic that don't belong in this thread, but as far as retirement goes, I have some observations about the women of previous generations.  Of the Silent Generation women I have known who were married, 100% of them never retired because they considered their primary job to be looking after their spouses.  Their husbands retired, but they never did. 

[Much Fishing to Do]

Little green soldiers do not care what the gender (or skin color) is of the person who holds them.  Stock dividends are per share held, regardless of who the owner is.  Personal investing is, in a way, the only truly level playing field in modern life.

I have a lot of thoughts on this topic that don't belong in this thread, but as far as retirement goes, I have some observations about the women of previous generations.  Of the Silent Generation women I have known who were married, 100% of them never retired because they considered their primary job to be looking after their spouses.  Their husbands retired, but they never did.

Yeah, my parents (Silent Generation) were definitely similar.  My mom looked after her kids first, husband second, and then work.  My dad looked after his wife first, kids second, and then work.  which is saying something given they both gave work a ton too.  It was nice.  Especially when mom got sick and dad took care of her to the end.  He was even carrying her around when she couldnt walk for months before my sister noticed something and and we got it out of dad he had a broken rib...but just didnt want to complain.

Yes, no generation after that has been similar since.

[Ron Scott]

@Ron Scott, I'm beginning to think you have too much free time in your post retired life.

It’s “retired” life. Not post-retired.

My wife would tell you I “never stop” and “relaxing makes me nervous”. But I know better. I am at heart a working dog—a builder. Retirement is fine, I do enjoy it and I’m glad to have more time with her, but the difference is notable.

My favorite boss, a really bright-hardworking guy I worked for for a decade, retired at 57 and called me a month later, mid-morning. I said “Hey! How’s it going?” He said “Pretty good I guess. You need anything from the supermarket?”

[spartana]

I don't think women are done with men at All. I just think they are done settling for men who don't view them as equal partners or who retain traditional gender stereotypes and expectations of women's roles in relationships even if those women have full time demanding careers. It's often easier (and maybe more personally rewarding) to remain single or unattached then to constantly fight against the tide of social gender role expectations if you cannot meet men who are more accepting of you and the life you want.

Men are still pretty awesome imho and I'm fortunate to have been in 2 very long term relationships (including a 17 year marriage and a post divorce non-marriage relationship...I'm not interested in marriage again ) with very open minded and accepting "modern men" who didn't have any issues with my career path or personal (very non-tradwife) lifestyle. But if that wasn't the case then yeah, I would have rather remained single and free and just casual date for funsies ;-).

ETA: I Also don't see what this has to do with post-FIRE. Or FIRE in general except for possibly getting to FI is harder on one income.

[Sugaree]

I don't think women are done with men at All. I just think they are done settling for men who don't view them as equal partners or who retain traditional gender stereotypes and expectations of women's roles in relationships even if those women have full time demanding careers. It's often easier (and maybe more personally rewarding) to remain single or unattached then to constantly fight against the tide of social gender role expectations if you cannot meet men who are more accepting of you and the life you want.

Men are still pretty awesome imho and I'm fortunate to have been in 2 very long term relationships (including a 17 year marriage) with very open minded and accepting "modern men" who didn't have any issues with my career path or personal (very non-tradwife) lifestyle. But if that wasn't the case then yeah, I would have rather remained single and free and just casual date for funsies ;-).

It's not "even if."  It's that women are generally expected to retain the traditional gender stereotypes at home and also also expected to work full time because otherwise they're "gold-diggers."  I can understand why women would be hesitant to volunteer for that arrangement.

[Telecaster]

There is a segment of society where this is true - but it's not monolithic. Plenty of young women are still getting married and having kids. But most media is concentrated in large coastal cities so what these writers see around them they extrapolate to be true for the rest of the country/world.

For every woman loudly complaining about how her husband/boyfriend is a lazy jerk (and they may very well be) there are others who are happy and love their husband/boyfriend and their relationship is truly where two become one.

But showcasing happy people doesn't generate clicks or eyeballs, so we only see the negative parts.

I agree with everything you said, but the article was far more nuanced.   In the developed world, marriage rates are declining and so is cohabitation.    People simply aren't coupling up as much as they used to.   This is not a good trend. 

The comments RS quoted were from women who disagreed with Kristoff's views on marriage (he's in favor).   He wasn't suggesting they were a large fraction of women, just noting that that mindset exists. 

[scantee]

Little green soldiers do not care what the gender (or skin color) is of the person who holds them.  Stock dividends are per share held, regardless of who the owner is.  Personal investing is, in a way, the only truly level playing field in modern life.

I have a lot of thoughts on this topic that don't belong in this thread, but as far as retirement goes, I have some observations about the women of previous generations.  Of the Silent Generation women I have known who were married, 100% of them never retired because they considered their primary job to be looking after their spouses.  Their husbands retired, but they never did.

I had this realization as a teen regarding my Greatest Gen grandma. My grandpa retired in his mid-50’s after a 30-year career. Since he lived another 30 years after that, and my grandma’s job was to do 100% of the cooking, cleaning, and family maintenance (buying gifts, scheduling vacations and dates, etc.), she never got to retire and worked for 60 years.

Having this realization fairly young had a pretty big impact on my life trajectory since I knew for sure, and could articulate why because I had a close model for it, that I had no interest in taking my grandma’s path. I don’t think my grandma had much interest in it either but she had little choice in the matter.

[Ron Scott]

There is a segment of society where this is true - but it's not monolithic. Plenty of young women are still getting married and having kids. But most media is concentrated in large coastal cities so what these writers see around them they extrapolate to be true for the rest of the country/world.

For every woman loudly complaining about how her husband/boyfriend is a lazy jerk (and they may very well be) there are others who are happy and love their husband/boyfriend and their relationship is truly where two become one.

But showcasing happy people doesn't generate clicks or eyeballs, so we only see the negative parts.

Some American stats for your consideration. Percent of adults never married over time and by state, in 2021.

[Ron Scott]

Missed one…overall country

[spartana]

I don't think women are done with men at All. I just think they are done settling for men who don't view them as equal partners or who retain traditional gender stereotypes and expectations of women's roles in relationships even if those women have full time demanding careers. It's often easier (and maybe more personally rewarding) to remain single or unattached then to constantly fight against the tide of social gender role expectations if you cannot meet men who are more accepting of you and the life you want.

Men are still pretty awesome imho and I'm fortunate to have been in 2 very long term relationships (including a 17 year marriage) with very open minded and accepting "modern men" who didn't have any issues with my career path or personal (very non-tradwife) lifestyle. But if that wasn't the case then yeah, I would have rather remained single and free and just casual date for funsies ;-).

It's not "even if."  It's that women are generally expected to retain the traditional gender stereotypes at home and also also expected to work full time because otherwise they're "gold-diggers."  I can understand why women would be hesitant to volunteer for that arrangement.

The great thing is that women are (or should be) very comfortable with just saying"no" to traditional gender norms when entering a relationship. I don't believe that should effect a romantic partnership as long as you find a suitable and agreeable partner and don't cave to peer or societal pressure. I wouldn't expect or assume my partner would do traditional male chores like mow the lawn or fix the car just because he was a guy. It's just as OK for him to say no as it is for me. No reason to give up on having a loving relationship if one or the other (or both) partners choose to not conform to traditional gender roles.

[MustacheAndaHalf]

Young women are becoming significantly more liberal as young men are becoming somewhat more conservative.

Boys and men are lagging in education and much less likely than women to get college degrees. Many of these less educated men struggle in the job market, and increasingly some of them seem to blame their problems on feminism.
...
Some women in America have publicly proclaimed that they are distancing themselves from men, abstaining from sex or going “boy sober.”

In a viral meme on TikTok in which women discuss whether they would rather encounter a bear in the woods or a man. Many go with the bear

Young people are not only marrying less and partnering less; they’re also having less sex.

Your initial post talks about "young", "boy" "TikTok" ... none of which relate to Post-FIRE.  None of your replies cite statistics limited to Post-FIRE.  Except for one reply claiming a weak link to Post-FIRE, I don't see any effort to make this a Post-FIRE topic, so I moved it to "Off Topic".

[Morning Glory]

There is a segment of society where this is true - but it's not monolithic. Plenty of young women are still getting married and having kids. But most media is concentrated in large coastal cities so what these writers see around them they extrapolate to be true for the rest of the country/world.

For every woman loudly complaining about how her husband/boyfriend is a lazy jerk (and they may very well be) there are others who are happy and love their husband/boyfriend and their relationship is truly where two become one.

But showcasing happy people doesn't generate clicks or eyeballs, so we only see the negative parts.

Some American stats for your consideration. Percent of adults never married over time and by state, in 2021.

He's correct that the decline has not happened equally across groups. The book Deaths of Despair and the Future of Capitalism by Anne Case and Angus Deaton has a chapter on declining marriage rates as well as other measures of social engagement such as church and organization membership.  Most of the decline in all of these has happened among non-college-educated whites IIRC.

[PKFFW]

Interesting op-ed by Kristof in today’s paper: Less Marriage, Less Sex, Less Agreement
South Korean feminists have created the 4B movement, which promotes no marriage, no babies, no dating and no sex.

Some women in America have publicly proclaimed that they are distancing themselves from men, abstaining from sex or going “boy sober.”

It's interesting that the MGTOW movement was immediately labelled toxic masculinity and adherents lumped in with incels.

Now that women are seeing the wisdom and many are choosing the same path, I wonder if there will be the same backlash.

And just for the record, I'm neither a proponent of the MGTOW path or an incel, being happily married to a wonderful woman and believer that everyone should be free to choose who they want to partner with, if anyone.

[curious_george]

I don't understand how this is even a bad thing?

Everyone talks about men deciding to simply remain single, and women deciding to remain single, like it's the end of society as we know it.

A lot of men and a lot of women who have made the decision to remain single have had enough negative experiences with the opposite sex that they have made the decision to remain single for their own health and happiness.

In the past it was much more difficult for women to decide to remain single due to lack of jobs, education, etc. Now women can also decide to be single if they want, and a lot of women have made just this decision because they're tired of dealing with men who are abusive, lazy, don't care about anyone except themselves, who drink all the time, cheat on them, and don't make enough money to provide for them anyway. Even the men who do make enough to provide for a woman financially increasingly only want a women who is rich, wealthy, etc because they completely refuse to share their money.

The fact that women are now educated enough and make enough money on their own that they can make the decision to remain single instead of be in an unhealthy relationship is a positive thing for society as a whole.

Right?

Don't we want women to be empowered enough to choose to be single if that's what they feel is best for their health and happiness?

It seems like a positive development to me.

[Kris]

I don't understand how this is even a bad thing?

Everyone talks about men deciding to simply remain single, and women deciding to remain single, like it's the end of society as we know it.

A lot of men and a lot of women who have made the decision to remain single have had enough negative experiences with the opposite sex that they have made the decision to remain single for their own health and happiness.

In the past it was much more difficult for women to decide to remain single due to lack of jobs, education, etc. Now women can also decide to be single if they want, and a lot of women have made just this decision because they're tired of dealing with men who are abusive, lazy, don't care about anyone except themselves, who drink all the time, cheat on them, and don't make enough money to provide for them anyway. Even the men who do make enough to provide for a woman financially increasingly only want a women who is rich, wealthy, etc because they completely refuse to share their money.

The fact that women are now educated enough and make enough money on their own that they can make the decision to remain single instead of be in an unhealthy relationship is a positive thing for society as a whole.

Right?

Don't we want women to be empowered enough to choose to be single if that's what they feel is best for their health and happiness?

It seems like a positive development to me.

Agreed.

[PoutineLover]

I'm happily married in my thirties and so are a certain cohort of my friends, especially the ones who partnered up in their twenties. But the ones who are still on the market are having a really hard time finding suitable partners, as in way too many of the men they're meeting are absolute trash (cheating, ghosting, lying, flaky, etc.) and they would rather be single than deal with that. Obviously #notallmen, there are good ones out there, but they're increasingly difficult to find, especially on dating apps. It's better to have no partner than a bad one, and it's a good thing that women now have the freedom to make that choice in a way that past generations couldn't easily do.

[blue_green_sparks]

I don't understand how this is even a bad thing?

Everyone talks about men deciding to simply remain single, and women deciding to remain single, like it's the end of society as we know it.

A lot of men and a lot of women who have made the decision to remain single have had enough negative experiences with the opposite sex that they have made the decision to remain single for their own health and happiness.

In the past it was much more difficult for women to decide to remain single due to lack of jobs, education, etc. Now women can also decide to be single if they want, and a lot of women have made just this decision because they're tired of dealing with men who are abusive, lazy, don't care about anyone except themselves, who drink all the time, cheat on them, and don't make enough money to provide for them anyway. Even the men who do make enough to provide for a woman financially increasingly only want a women who is rich, wealthy, etc because they completely refuse to share their money.

The fact that women are now educated enough and make enough money on their own that they can make the decision to remain single instead of be in an unhealthy relationship is a positive thing for society as a whole.

Right?

Don't we want women to be empowered enough to choose to be single if that's what they feel is best for their health and happiness?

It seems like a positive development to me.

I agree with all of this however there is that fact that a next generation of children needs to be reared for a society to continue and an inverted population pyramid is an economic disaster.

[Kris]

I don't understand how this is even a bad thing?

Everyone talks about men deciding to simply remain single, and women deciding to remain single, like it's the end of society as we know it.

A lot of men and a lot of women who have made the decision to remain single have had enough negative experiences with the opposite sex that they have made the decision to remain single for their own health and happiness.

In the past it was much more difficult for women to decide to remain single due to lack of jobs, education, etc. Now women can also decide to be single if they want, and a lot of women have made just this decision because they're tired of dealing with men who are abusive, lazy, don't care about anyone except themselves, who drink all the time, cheat on them, and don't make enough money to provide for them anyway. Even the men who do make enough to provide for a woman financially increasingly only want a women who is rich, wealthy, etc because they completely refuse to share their money.

The fact that women are now educated enough and make enough money on their own that they can make the decision to remain single instead of be in an unhealthy relationship is a positive thing for society as a whole.

Right?

Don't we want women to be empowered enough to choose to be single if that's what they feel is best for their health and happiness?

It seems like a positive development to me.

I agree with all of this however there is that fact that a next generation of children needs to be reared for a society to continue and an inverted population pyramid is an economic disaster.

I think climate change already has the “economic disaster” part kinda sewn up…

[GuitarStv]

This is a ridiculous non-issue.

I don't believe there should be any pressure for anyone to be in a relationship.  If you're concerned that people don't want to be in a relationship with you, find different people . . . and maybe look long and hard at your own actions (am I doing things that someone would want to be around?).  If you're concerned that women don't want to be in a relationship with men, help educate men to be more appealing human beings.

[Turtle]

Interesting op-ed by Kristof in today’s paper: Less Marriage, Less Sex, Less Agreement

“Women in particular dismissed heterosexual marriage as an outdated institution that pampers men while turning women into unpaid servants.”

“We all say, ‘Never again.’ Men require a lot of care. They can be such babies.”

Young women are becoming significantly more liberal as young men are becoming somewhat more conservative.

Boys and men are lagging in education and much less likely than women to get college degrees. Many of these less educated men struggle in the job market, and increasingly some of them seem to blame their problems on feminism.

Men are becoming grumpier and more resentful of women’s success, and more drawn to conservative authoritarian populists, from Donald Trump to misogynist internet personalities like Andrew Tate.

South Korean feminists have created the 4B movement, which promotes no marriage, no babies, no dating and no sex. South Korea’s total fertility rate has plummeted to one of the lowest in the world, with the average woman now having just 0.7 children.

Some women in America have publicly proclaimed that they are distancing themselves from men, abstaining from sex or going “boy sober.”

In a viral meme on TikTok in which women discuss whether they would rather encounter a bear in the woods or a man. Many go with the bear

Young people are not only marrying less and partnering less; they’re also having less sex.

‘… the fundamental problem is the struggle of men to adapt to a world in which brawn matters less than brains, education and emotional intelligence.”

Now that we are in Off Topic -

About the bear - ever seen the movie Deliverance? 

[former player]

I don't understand how this is even a bad thing?

Everyone talks about men deciding to simply remain single, and women deciding to remain single, like it's the end of society as we know it.

A lot of men and a lot of women who have made the decision to remain single have had enough negative experiences with the opposite sex that they have made the decision to remain single for their own health and happiness.

In the past it was much more difficult for women to decide to remain single due to lack of jobs, education, etc. Now women can also decide to be single if they want, and a lot of women have made just this decision because they're tired of dealing with men who are abusive, lazy, don't care about anyone except themselves, who drink all the time, cheat on them, and don't make enough money to provide for them anyway. Even the men who do make enough to provide for a woman financially increasingly only want a women who is rich, wealthy, etc because they completely refuse to share their money.

The fact that women are now educated enough and make enough money on their own that they can make the decision to remain single instead of be in an unhealthy relationship is a positive thing for society as a whole.

Right?

Don't we want women to be empowered enough to choose to be single if that's what they feel is best for their health and happiness?

It seems like a positive development to me.

I agree with all of this however there is that fact that a next generation of children needs to be reared for a society to continue and an inverted population pyramid is an economic disaster.

Not a problem in countries with immigration.  More of a problem for China that doesn't.

[roomtempmayo]

I'm happily married in my thirties and so are a certain cohort of my friends, especially the ones who partnered up in their twenties. But the ones who are still on the market are having a really hard time finding suitable partners, as in way too many of the men they're meeting are absolute trash (cheating, ghosting, lying, flaky, etc.) and they would rather be single than deal with that. Obviously #notallmen, there are good ones out there, but they're increasingly difficult to find, especially on dating apps. It's better to have no partner than a bad one, and it's a good thing that women now have the freedom to make that choice in a way that past generations couldn't easily do.

We got married 15 years ago, and it definitely feels like we got on the last chopper out of 'Nam when we talk to single friends.

I think the have it all narrative has done women a great disservice.  We all do make tradeoffs.  But more to the point of this thread, the idea that you can sort your career out first and find a partner later has been a disaster for lots of single women friends whose vision of having it all included a marriage and kids.  Waiting until you're in your 30s to start looking for a partner is a bad choice if being married is a high priority.  The pool at that point is shallow and full of creepy crawlies.

[blue_green_sparks]

Ahh yes, thank you. Immigration. The US is fortunate in that regard if we play it well !

[Villanelle]

Most of the young women (12-30) are far from "done with men".  They aren't interested in forging heterosexual sex forever.  They want romantic relationships.  So yeah, most of what's in that OP don't apply.

Most of them still seem interested in marrying, but marriage is less if an almost forgone conclusions than it used to be.  When it's no longer a huge taboo in most circles to have a kid out of wedlock, simply wanting children no longer make marriage the obvious step. 

As women have continued to make strides in employment and income (though still a ways to go), the roles and expectations of many boys and men dont' seem to have shifted as much.  "He provides financial stability and she cares for the house and kids" no longer makes sense.  Yet more than a few boys and men seem to still expect that.  Of course girls and women are generally loath to sign on for that.  What is the man's contribution to the partnership that makes it anything close to equal of fair, if everyone works for the same amount of time and money, and then the female partner takes on a majority of the home and child-related chores?

So yeah, of course women are less enthusiastic about marriage.  If men want to not worry about FIRE affecting their dating lives, they need to be prepared to contribute fairly to a partnership.  That's about far more than money. If men want to be partnered with women, they have to be attractive as partners.  That's going to mean different things to different women.  But it's going to be very few women for which it means "expect you to do 80% of childcare, housework, and emotional labor, plus spend as much time as the other partner at employment, and with the other partner doing nothing more in other areas to make up for it."  When women can make their own money, what's the value proposition that men offer?  Some men truly are offering fair partnerships, along with love.  But having a penis alone isn't enough to get most women to give up independence and take on the care for another adult, plus potentially children. 

[rocketpj]

If they are who can blame them?  Lots of the men I know are emotionally stunted idiots who haven't yet taken the time to actually think about women as discrete persons.  Lots of projection, very little paying of attention.

Or so I gather from my many single mother coworkers, who look at me (happily married 27 years to a female CEO) as some kind of weird artifact.  I feel for them.  So many have lowered their bar for a partner to 'won't yell at you and call you names all the time', which is heartbreaking.

[Villanelle]

If they are who can blame them?  Lots of the men I know are emotionally stunted idiots who haven't yet taken the time to actually think about women as discrete persons.  Lots of projection, very little paying of attention.

Or so I gather from my many single mother coworkers, who look at me (happily married 27 years to a female CEO) as some kind of weird artifact.  I feel for them.  So many have lowered their bar for a partner to 'won't yell at you and call you names all the time', which is heartbreaking.

Right.  It's not as if men are entitled to sex, relationships with women, marriage, or women to grow their babies and then said them.  (Well, I suppose there are some men who think they are very much entitled to all those things.)

If you are a man (or woman) and you want to be with a woman and they don't want to be with you, then improve yourself.  be better.  It's a bit like complaining that you want to be a lawyer but no law firms will hire you... because you HAVEN'T GONE TO LAW SCHOOL.  Decide which you want more... the law job or to not go to law school.  Because you can't have both.

If you want to attract a woman, make yourself attractive to women.  Yeah, that's going to be slightly different for every women.  But if the majority of women don't want to mother their partner, don't be someone who needs mothering, or yeah, you are going to struggle to find someone. 

[Ron Scott]

If they are who can blame them?  Lots of the men I know are emotionally stunted idiots who haven't yet taken the time to actually think about women as discrete persons.  Lots of projection, very little paying of attention.

Or so I gather from my many single mother coworkers, who look at me (happily married 27 years to a female CEO) as some kind of weird artifact.  I feel for them.  So many have lowered their bar for a partner to 'won't yell at you and call you names all the time', which is heartbreaking.

Right.  It's not as if men are entitled to sex, relationships with women, marriage, or women to grow their babies and then said them.  (Well, I suppose there are some men who think they are very much entitled to all those things.)

If you are a man (or woman) and you want to be with a woman and they don't want to be with you, then improve yourself.  be better.  It's a bit like complaining that you want to be a lawyer but no law firms will hire you... because you HAVEN'T GONE TO LAW SCHOOL.  Decide which you want more... the law job or to not go to law school.  Because you can't have both.

If you want to attract a woman, make yourself attractive to women.  Yeah, that's going to be slightly different for every women.  But if the majority of women don't want to mother their partner, don't be someone who needs mothering, or yeah, you are going to struggle to find someone.

I think some men have actually given up. They look around at the world and their life in it and conclude the dream just isn’t going to happen so f-it. I don’t understand the man who won’t fight to take control of his life, but I’ve seen it happen.

[PKFFW]

I don't understand how this is even a bad thing?

Everyone talks about men deciding to simply remain single, and women deciding to remain single, like it's the end of society as we know it.

A lot of men and a lot of women who have made the decision to remain single have had enough negative experiences with the opposite sex that they have made the decision to remain single for their own health and happiness.

In the past it was much more difficult for women to decide to remain single due to lack of jobs, education, etc. Now women can also decide to be single if they want, and a lot of women have made just this decision because they're tired of dealing with men who are abusive, lazy, don't care about anyone except themselves, who drink all the time, cheat on them, and don't make enough money to provide for them anyway. Even the men who do make enough to provide for a woman financially increasingly only want a women who is rich, wealthy, etc because they completely refuse to share their money.

The fact that women are now educated enough and make enough money on their own that they can make the decision to remain single instead of be in an unhealthy relationship is a positive thing for society as a whole.

Right?

Don't we want women to be empowered enough to choose to be single if that's what they feel is best for their health and happiness?

It seems like a positive development to me.

Totally agree, and I expect that will be the general narrative if the trend continues and grows. Men doing the same thing on the other hand will, I expect, continue to be met with hostility, ridicule and accusations of toxic masculinity.

[MustacheAndaHalf]

It might be an unbalanced number of men and women graduating college.

First, an excerpt from the 2015 book Date-onomics[1] appeared on Twitter a couple of months ago, which showed that, among college-educated single adults, women far outnumber men, and at a time when unmarried Americans increasingly want to marry those who have completed at least bachelor’s degrees. This tweet produced a surprising amount of commentary, particularly about the so-called plight of single, heterosexual women facing a shortage of suitable marriage partners. Shortly on the heels of this, a fine research study in the Journal of Marriage and Family[2] by Daniel Lichter, Joseph Price, and Jeffrey Swigert was released. It argued that current marriage rates are at a 150-year low partly because unmarried women face a shortage of men with what they view as acceptable income and job prospects

https://ifstudies.org/blog/the-gender-gap-in-marriages-between-college-educated-partners

[Kris]

I don't understand how this is even a bad thing?

Everyone talks about men deciding to simply remain single, and women deciding to remain single, like it's the end of society as we know it.

A lot of men and a lot of women who have made the decision to remain single have had enough negative experiences with the opposite sex that they have made the decision to remain single for their own health and happiness.

In the past it was much more difficult for women to decide to remain single due to lack of jobs, education, etc. Now women can also decide to be single if they want, and a lot of women have made just this decision because they're tired of dealing with men who are abusive, lazy, don't care about anyone except themselves, who drink all the time, cheat on them, and don't make enough money to provide for them anyway. Even the men who do make enough to provide for a woman financially increasingly only want a women who is rich, wealthy, etc because they completely refuse to share their money.

The fact that women are now educated enough and make enough money on their own that they can make the decision to remain single instead of be in an unhealthy relationship is a positive thing for society as a whole.

Right?

Don't we want women to be empowered enough to choose to be single if that's what they feel is best for their health and happiness?

It seems like a positive development to me.

Totally agree, and I expect that will be the general narrative if the trend continues and grows. Men doing the same thing on the other hand will, I expect, continue to be met with hostility, ridicule and accusations of toxic masculinity.

Yeah, could be because of the reasons they give… which are pretty toxic generally.

[Ron Scott]

The fact that women are now educated enough and make enough money on their own that they can make the decision to remain single instead of be in an unhealthy relationship is a positive thing for society as a whole.

Don't we want women to be empowered enough to choose to be single if that's what they feel is best for their health and happiness?

Change that to “The fact that MORE women are now…” and I’m sold on this position. Many women were like this 60 years ago so.

Having children IMO (pleasantly) complicates the situation but for a single couple or just a separate man and woman there is really no need anymore for traditional dependencies.

[Sibley]

Abortion bans. Proposed/threatened bans or limitations on contraceptives. Denial of needed medical care in the case of miscarriages.

Why should any woman have anything to do with men? It's physically dangerous to have sex in this environment - if you can't prevent a pregnancy, if you can't terminate a pregnancy, if you can't get medical care if something goes wrong with a pregnancy. It's not worth dying for.

Then there's all the toxic masculinity and misogyny that's floating all over the internet and social media, plus embedded in daily life to such an extent that other women are espousing it.

Lack of maternity leave. Lack of affordable, qualify child care. Inability to afford housing. School shootings. Climate change. Project 2025. I'm missing a bunch, but you get the idea.

Don't like it? Fix it. Until then, welcome to consequences.

[Villanelle]

It might be an unbalanced number of men and women graduating college.

First, an excerpt from the 2015 book Date-onomics[1] appeared on Twitter a couple of months ago, which showed that, among college-educated single adults, women far outnumber men, and at a time when unmarried Americans increasingly want to marry those who have completed at least bachelor’s degrees. This tweet produced a surprising amount of commentary, particularly about the so-called plight of single, heterosexual women facing a shortage of suitable marriage partners. Shortly on the heels of this, a fine research study in the Journal of Marriage and Family[2] by Daniel Lichter, Joseph Price, and Jeffrey Swigert was released. It argued that current marriage rates are at a 150-year low partly because unmarried women face a shortage of men with what they view as acceptable income and job prospects

https://ifstudies.org/blog/the-gender-gap-in-marriages-between-college-educated-partners

Most of the 20-35yo single women I know aren't necessarily looking for a man based on "acceptable income and job prospects," though I assume some of that depends on how one defines that phrase.  They are fine with a man with less formal education. They are fine with a man who makes less than they do.  (In fact, it seems to me that far more often, it's men who are uncomfortable with that imbalance, not women.)

It seems to be that it's far more about the workload that comes with many relationships.  When husbands made money, and wives took care of home and kids, there was at least some sense of balance in a partnership. When both partners make money and work full-time, suddenly men have to bring something else to the partnership for it to be perceived as either equal, or fair.  Why should a woman take on an additional person to clean up after, to manage the home schedule for, to do all the emotional labor for--and that's before you add kids?  How is that an attractive proposition?  It doesn't matter that she's got a PhD and he has a high school diploma.  Or that she makes 3 times what he does.  It matters that women's roles have evolved so that they can provide for themselves financially.  But for many men, their roles haven't evolved to complement women's shifts.  They offer less, since they are no longer the providers of financial stability, but they aren't offering more in some other area to account for that shift.

So women are faced with working full time--in many cases working longer hours and more stressful jobs than their male partners--and staring down taking on a massive increase in workload if they take on a partner.  Why wouldn't they hesitate?

Then there's forced births, decreasing access to birth control, and other issues.  Men wonder why women don't want to even sleep with them, much less partner up? Look at the stakes. 

**Not all men, not all women, blah blah blah. 

[FINate]

I'll agree with others asking if this is really a bad thing, though I'll offer a somewhat different perspective.

For sure, toxic masculinity is a contributing factor, but what's the root cause for things like this and the incel movement? I think it has to do with selfishness. Selfishness is not new, but it is unconstrained in our highly individualistic society. In the past identity was much more collective with a high degree of obligation to one's community, spouse, parents, and so on. Whereas for the past 200 years or so the focus has increasingly become the self.

What's the motivation to marry, procreate, and raise families if the main purpose of life revolves around the individual? Marriage and raising children is a lifelong obligation... to others. It's difficult work that often requires giving of one's self for the benefit of the group. To be clear, I'm not saying choosing to remain single and/or childless is selfish.

Don't get me wrong, I love DW a ton and our relationship has grown and mature over our 23+ years together. And I love my DDs more than I thought possible. But while immensely fulfilling, I'm regularly putting my desires and priorities aside for their benefit. Doing dishes when I'm tired and just want to go to bed. Helping kids with homework when I'd rather go biking. Missing out on trips and other activities due to family obligations. And maintaining a healthy marriage takes a lot of effort. As much as I love DW, I'm pretty sure I won't remarry if she passes before me. I can't see building a life with another person at this point, and I would be quite content being single and celibate (religious reasons).

So is it really a bad thing if people aren't getting married just because it's expected or the "next step" in life? This is just dumb. Even dumber is making babies because you think it will fix your relationship issues. Or treating your kids like trophies for your own sense of accomplishment. If people aren't getting married or having kids for all the wrong reasons that's not a bad thing.  And I think much of our culture is toxic (e.g. look at how we treat people and the plant) so if our population diminishes relative to other places perhaps this is a good thing.

[Missy B]

I think the trajectory of increasing singlehood is going to continue because of all the social dynamics around dating that are increasingly dysfunctional. At least, in my opinion. Twenty-year old males who feel afraid to approach a girl they like in case they're perceived as too pushy, harassing, or stalker-ish. These are not nebbish boys looking for an excuse, but normal kids who've been indoctrinated with political correctness to the point where they can no longer behave like a normal male of the species.

Add to that the general anxiety and lack of well socialization because of the reduction of in-person time with friends, which was happening well before covid, and you have a bunch of young people terrified  to ask someone a question in person, much less face possible rejection.

It's not a good thing at all. Societies with a lot of unpartnered young men have more issues and are less stable long term. And while I don't think everyone need to pair off, being coupled, kids or not, is an important way for people to meet emotional and physical needs.

[MustacheAndaHalf]

It might be an unbalanced number of men and women graduating college.

First, an excerpt from the 2015 book Date-onomics[1] appeared on Twitter a couple of months ago, which showed that, among college-educated single adults, women far outnumber men, and at a time when unmarried Americans increasingly want to marry those who have completed at least bachelor’s degrees. This tweet produced a surprising amount of commentary, particularly about the so-called plight of single, heterosexual women facing a shortage of suitable marriage partners. Shortly on the heels of this, a fine research study in the Journal of Marriage and Family[2] by Daniel Lichter, Joseph Price, and Jeffrey Swigert was released. It argued that current marriage rates are at a 150-year low partly because unmarried women face a shortage of men with what they view as acceptable income and job prospects

https://ifstudies.org/blog/the-gender-gap-in-marriages-between-college-educated-partners

Most of the 20-35yo single women I know aren't necessarily looking for a man based on "acceptable income and job prospects," though I assume some of that depends on how one defines that phrase.  They are fine with a man with less formal education. They are fine with a man who makes less than they do.  (In fact, it seems to me that far more often, it's men who are uncomfortable with that imbalance, not women.)

The research says the exact opposite of what you claim.  That article has graphs about who women with bachelor's degrees marry.  The percent marrying other graduates is going up - not down as you claim.

[MustacheAndaHalf]

Abortion bans. Proposed/threatened bans or limitations on contraceptives. Denial of needed medical care in the case of miscarriages.

The Supreme Court decision 2 years ago did not make birth rates decline for the past 10 years.
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/hus/topics/births.htm#featured-charts

[YttriumNitrate]

Lack of maternity leave. Lack of affordable, qualify child care. Inability to afford housing. School shootings. Climate change. Project 2025. I'm missing a bunch, but you get the idea.

While I often see these things cited as reasons for a falling birthrate, are they actually correlated? For example, Finland has great maternity leave, government subsidized child care, rare school shootings, a large amount of subsidized housing, and a 1.46 birthrate.

[PKFFW]

Yeah, could be because of the reasons they give… which are pretty toxic generally.

Yeah, I think it would be great for more men to be like "I'm rejecting the idea of obtaining a woman (or women) as a romantic/sexual conquest in order to prove my worth and feel successful in life. I think it'll be healthier for me to be single while I untangle some of the messy social scripts telling me that I can only be fulfilled or completed by a woman's love. I hope I can develop healthier platonic relationships with women in the meantime."

Wish I saw that more often than "I'm refusing to interact with women because they are all conspiring against me!!!!"

Sure, if all you look at is what the media portrays because it gets the clicks and views.

I don't pretend there aren't toxic personalities in the MGTOW movement. However, if you care to look a little deeper there are plenty of men who are choosing that lifestyle for exactly the reasons you think would be great. There are also plenty who are choosing the lifestyle for pretty much the same reasons women seem to be choosing it, because they just don't see the need, benefit, or attraction of having a partner.

But let me not derail the thread. I'm off to bed instead.
(hey, that rhymed....I'm a poet and didn't even know it!)

[Metalcat]

I think a lot of opinions are being shared without much engagement with the actual stakeholders involved.

I spend a lot of time talking to Gen Z folks about their love lives, and I've been doing an enormous amount of reading about what's happening because I have to in order to have the cultural competency to help these young people.

You *cannot* view today's dating patterns through a millenial or Gen X lens. I see a ton of middle aged folks draw a lot of the same kind of conclusions, but they aren't actually accounting for the massive cultural ground shift that occured without us even noticing it.

I understand because I made the same error. I can't tell you how many sessions I've been in with a young woman or a young man and I'm like "what the actual fuck did I just hear??"

Young woman absolute HAVE NOT raised their standards or expectations. If anything, they've lowered them so far that they kind of can't go any lower.

What has happened is that their willingness to trust is obliterated, and holy shit balls, I understand why.

The desire to pair up in a committed, monogamous relationship with a loving partner is very much alive and well among young women, they just don't think it's a realistic expectation, and frankly, the way the "dating" rules have evolved, they're not wrong.

And it cuts both ways, the young men are getting fucked by these evolving norms as well, just in very different ways.

I'm actually considering putting together a course for middle aged therapists to better understand Gen Z dating norms because my mind was fucking blown trying to understand.

If I were a young woman today, yeah, I would eventually feel so beaten down that I would opt out as well, because a good outcome would just feel improbable to impossible.

It's not good, it's very, very bad. Under our noses "dating" very quickly became a much, much more toxic game than the rest of us grew up with. The more I learned the more I kept thinking "how did we let this happen?"

Early on I made the mistake of saying things like "but you should be able to expect X,Y,Z" when referring to basic, basic relational conduct, and I sounded as fucking out of touch as a boomer saying that I should be able to graduate without student debt by getting a part time job at the grocery store.

I *wish* the reason was that young women are raising their standards, and I assumed that too, but having just done a cultural crash course talking to young folks and consuming an unhealthy amount of Gen Z social media...oof...no...that's just a millenial/Gen X fantasy.

Dating in the age of social media/apps got fucking weird for everyone involved, and I'm still trying to figure out why, but grasping the "how" has left me more than a bit traumatized and disheartened.

The worst part, which is most relevant to me, has been the weaponization of therapy-speak. Fuck me. I have to do so much reprogramming with young people who have had therapy concepts from mental health tiktok weaponized into a really, really fucked up form of abuse. And the paradoxical impact of mental health awareness is that it's very, very difficult to defend against it being weaponized into coercion.

Let me make this extremely clear. I hear dark shit day in and day out. There's almost nothing that shakes me. I hear about child sexual assault, war, etc. I roll with it, I'm used to it. But I heard a story of young person who experienced this kind of abuse and I needed to talk to my therapist to process how fucked up it was. It was my very first experience with vicarious trauma, because this shit is new, and I wasn't prepared for it.

And it's fucking everywhere.

The norms and interpersonal rules of romance changed so quickly that there are no safety rails anymore. The rules are being made up, and unfortunately, the most coercive people are the ones setting the terms and expectations, and driving the trends.

Now, you're only generally allowed to expect what the more coercive person in the dynamic allows to be expected. This is why all genders are experiencing dating as fucking toxic.

Because it fucking is.

Fuck...if I were a 25 year old dating right now? I would choose the god damn bear.

[FINate]

@Metalcat Thanks for providing the insiders perspective. For parents such as myself (DDs are Gen Alpha), can you provide some more concrete examples of what you're seeing without violating confidentiality? It would be helpful to know what specifically to be on the lookout for.

I know you're still processing how we got here, but do you have any early thoughts/speculation on this? Social media? The commercialization / gamification of dating apps? Depictions of abuse in online porn? All of the above? Something else? Thanks!

[Sibley]

For me, it is so disheartening to see intelligent people say "but that can't be a reason because Finland." Or "statistics don't show that." Guess what, big societal shifts don't happen overnight. A Supreme Court decision that happened 2 years ago may take 30 years to really see the impact. It took decades for the impact of China's one child policy to materialize.

It's not one thing. It's a million things. It's all of it, in varying combinations and prominence. It's the economy, it's social media, its incels, its politics, its climate change, its toxic masculinity, it's the man child (a very real thing), it's domestic violence, it's climate change. It's ALL of it. If you really want to fix the problem, that means that you have to fix ALL of it. But that's not realistic or possible, so you chip away at it. You fix maternity leave, that's going to help. You fix the housing crisis and that's going to help. You fix day care and that will help. You will eventually come the realization that part of it is that women have a choice and some women will just never choose to have the husband and 2-3 kids. And that's ok, but in the process if we can fix all these different things we've made the world a better place. Which will help.

Metalcat - I work with some early to mid 20s people, and the rules have most definitely changed. I have no clue what the rules are now, but they're different. Thank for you trying to understand and do what you can to help.

[curious_george]

@Metalcat I appreciate you sharing your perspective and this does match what I hear from young people today.

It doesn't particularly sound optimistic though or hopeful for the future of romantic relationships though....It sounds like you're basically saying the rules have all changed and young people are screwed..

Do you have any practical advice that you give to young people who are navigating the dating world today?

What would you tell a 16 year old boy today who complains that they can't find a girlfriend? Or a 21 year old lady who complains about the string of abusive relationships she has been in?

Just telling all the gen z population that they're all fucked and we don't know why or what happened or what they can do to improve their situation or odds seems like a non-starter...if anything it seems like this sort of thinking would just make someone even more depressed about their life and future. ...

We sort of evolved to seek love and romance and intimacy in life. Love and romance is an element of almost every TV show and movie, and probably every other song.

While I agree with your assessment of the situation, I'm not entirely sure what to tell Gen Z that would help outside of...have you accepted the idea of being single forever?

Like ... Where is your magic wand at that will make everything better?

How do you help your clients navigate romantic relationships today?

What should I tell my teenage boys when they ask me about how to date a girl?

So far all I have is - work out, do well in school, have integrity and ethics, care about other people, have some confidence in yourself, learn how to be supportive and validating of a girls feelings, choose a high paying career, etc.

What characteristics and traits do women want in a man today?

[Metalcat]

@Metalcat Thanks for providing the insiders perspective. For parents such as myself (DDs are Gen Alpha), can you provide some more concrete examples of what you're seeing without violating confidentiality? It would be helpful to know what specifically to be on the lookout for.

I know you're still processing how we got here, but do you have any early thoughts/speculation on this? Social media? The commercialization / gamification of dating apps? Depictions of abuse in online porn? All of the above? Something else? Thanks!

It's...complicated.

So basically you have to grasp the downfall of dating as we old fucks understand it, and the rise of mental health TikTok, these things blended together to make an unholy beast that none of us can grasp without being in it.

Okay...so how do I explain this simply.

So "dating" as a concept is dead, no one "dates" anymore, they "talk." Talking can mean anything from literally messaging someone you've never seen in person and never intend to, or it could mean seeing someone multiple times a week, sleeping at their house, having regular sex, meeting their friends and family, crying with them and sharing emotional support, etc, etc, but that's not "dating" unless/until usually the guy agrees to have expectations put on him.

It used to be that spending A LOT of intimate time with someone that the progress of the relationship was expected and fairly implicit. Like, sure, we would have exclusivity talks, but they usually were expected and happened fairly organically.

Not so much now. A situationship can go on indefinitely and usually men get pretty hostile about their unwillingness to "date" being challenged.

Here's where the fuckery of mental health TikTok comes in. Whomever is the more coercive party between the two will define the boundaries and parameters because there are none by default.

Even young people struggle to define their own generations terms for things. Whenever I ask a young person to define "talking" they mostly get frustrated because even they don't know the rules and have to have the horribly awkward process of trying to define them while in the midst of being confused about what the fuck is even reasonable to expect.

With this level of confusion, anyone even remotely coercive is actually incentivized to be moreso. Throw in poorly understood therapy concepts and a general social expectation of accommodating and respecting mental health issues, and you have a recipe for a level of gaslighting that has never been seen before.

I'll hear things like "well, because of his ADHD and avoidant dismissive attachment style, I really need to be patient with his trauma responses" which sounds okay, but what they're actually saying is that they've been the primary source of intimacy and emotional support for someone for 2 years, practically living together, but this person goes and fucks other people, gets ultra defensive if ever challenged on that, and then uses therapy-speak to make the other person feel guilty for the negative emotions they cause by having expectations and needs of their own.

I know that sounds insane, because it is, but I truly cannot tell you how fucking common it is that I have clients who are racked with guilt and frustration because they've been thoroughly convinced that *they* are the problem, when really, they're dating someone who has emotionally coerced them into a relational and sexual dynamic that they never wanted to be in, and because there are no guidelines and parameters anymore about things are "supposed" to go, they have nothing to measure their relationship against to even make sense of it.

The worse part is that almost none of this is intentional abusive or coercive.

Back in the day we all would have seen though this shit as un-fucking-acceptible and would have been like "man that dude/chick is fucked up" but without clear norms, that isn't self-evident anymore.

The net effect is a systemic distrust, which makes it even harder for healthy, progressively more committed bonds to form as all participants become more jaded and downright hostile. There's much, much more hostility to courtship than us older folks can grasp.

Young women especially now frequently say things to me like "I'll never ever move that fast in a relationship ever again. I mean, we only knew each other for 3 months before we started dating! That's way too fast!"

Remember, "dating" just means having intention of the relationship progressing, that's it.

So young women are freaking out that it doesn't even feel safe to contemplate *maybe* having a discussion about a relationship even potentially moving forward, even potentially having a degree of commitment in the future, until they know exactly what kind of personality and demands they will be up against.

They are not expecting more, they're scared.