What’s wrong with men?

[OtherJen]

As a not particularly outgoing person, I find find it mildly distressing to stare at people's eyes when talking to them.  My habit has always to be to stare at people's chests (men and women), something that was pointed out to me some time back and that I'm trying to correct when addressing women.

Sometimes people read into behaviour things that aren't there.

Generally I appreciate your perspective, @GuitarStv , but as someone who started receiving teasing from her classmates about her breast size at age 11 and has been leered at, talked down to, and body shamed so many times that I've lost count in the 32 years since then, I think my perspective probably carries a bit more weight here. I also strongly suspect that I'm not the only person with breasts on these forums who has a similar lived experience.

[Metalcat]

Okay, fair enough, the Stoet paper has poor methodology.  But from the same wiki as the user above,

The gender equality paradox has also been used to describe gender differences in personality tests and preferences in more gender equal and wealthier countries, primarily in relation to studies conducted by Falk and Hermle (2018)[22] and by Mac Giolla and Kajonius (2018)[23].[1][24] Falk and Hermle (2018) used the 2012 Gallup World Poll that explored the preferences of around 80,000 people from 76 different countries and found that richer and more gender-equal countries had bigger gender gaps in people’s preferences.[1] Mac Giolla and Kajonius (2018) found that women tend to rate higher than men on all five facets of personality on the IPIP‐NEO‐120 personality test and that the gap gets wider in countries that rank higher on the GGGI.[1][24]

I wouldn't be in a hurry to sling around accusations of sexism with a thread titled as it is.

It's foolish to discuss sex differences without discussing the dimorphism, which has clear psychological influence.

The wage gap is problematic since there are many variables that are rarely controlled for, if it's even possible to do so.

Re strongmen: Is this not analagous to women who undergo starvation diets to meet impossible beauty standards?  When strength and muscles are touted as the height of masculinity, why are we surprised a fraction of men work to meet that standard?  When flawless complexion and perfect locks are the height of femininity, some subset of women will work to achieve that.  Does that say that men and women innately care about those things, or does it reflect that our culture cares about those things?  This is why it's so hard to make generalizations about gender based on bio truthism, because everything is inextricably connected to our environment.

Interesting analogy, since beauty standards are much more subjective.  Strongman competitions are not beauty contests, they are functional strength competitions which are pretty objective.
But even still, I think we can say beauty contests will always exist, and they don't have to be pathological.  Most men are more attracted to a woman closer to the middle of the bell curve anyway.

I agree about the second half by the way.  But I'm not making generalizations, I've been careful not to speak in certainties.

I personally found your response to me to be insulting, especially considering the responses I've given all along in this particular thread.

[Metalcat]

As a not particularly outgoing person, I find find it mildly distressing to stare at people's eyes when talking to them.  My habit has always to be to stare at people's chests (men and women), something that was pointed out to me some time back and that I'm trying to correct when addressing women.

Sometimes people read into behaviour things that aren't there.

Generally I appreciate your perspective, @GuitarStv , but as someone who started receiving teasing from her classmates about her breast size at age 11 and has been leered at, talked down to, and body shamed so many times that I've lost count in the 32 years since then, I think my perspective probably carries a bit more weight here. I also strongly suspect that I'm not the only person with breasts on these forums who has a similar lived experience.

Seriously, this thread is fucking killing me today.

[Wrenchturner]

As a not particularly outgoing person, I find find it mildly distressing to stare at people's eyes when talking to them.  My habit has always to be to stare at people's chests (men and women), something that was pointed out to me some time back and that I'm trying to correct when addressing women.

Sometimes people read into behaviour things that aren't there.

Gosh--this community would have excommunicated you immediately with errors like that!

[OtherJen]

As a not particularly outgoing person, I find find it mildly distressing to stare at people's eyes when talking to them.  My habit has always to be to stare at people's chests (men and women), something that was pointed out to me some time back and that I'm trying to correct when addressing women.

Sometimes people read into behaviour things that aren't there.

Generally I appreciate your perspective, @GuitarStv , but as someone who started receiving teasing from her classmates about her breast size at age 11 and has been leered at, talked down to, and body shamed so many times that I've lost count in the 32 years since then, I think my perspective probably carries a bit more weight here. I also strongly suspect that I'm not the only person with breasts on these forums who has a similar lived experience.

Seriously, this thread is fucking killing me today.

Right?!

[Wrenchturner]

This thread's existence is insulting.  (But to be clear, I'm not reporting anything--I have pretty high disgust sensitivity and I think fights are best performed with words)

But I'm sorry you are insulted Malcat.  You have made some good points in this thread, I don't think we disagree that much.

[GuitarStv]

As a not particularly outgoing person, I find find it mildly distressing to stare at people's eyes when talking to them.  My habit has always to be to stare at people's chests (men and women), something that was pointed out to me some time back and that I'm trying to correct when addressing women.

Sometimes people read into behaviour things that aren't there.

Generally I appreciate your perspective, @GuitarStv , but as someone who started receiving teasing from her classmates about her breast size at age 11 and has been leered at, talked down to, and body shamed so many times that I've lost count in the 32 years since then, I think my perspective probably carries a bit more weight here. I also strongly suspect that I'm not the only person with breasts on these forums who has a similar lived experience.

I'm not trying to say that your lived experience was wrong.  Just wanted to point out that while I do still occasionally talk to someone's chest, it's not done for sexual gratification or in any attempt to make them feel uncomfortable.

[nessness]

This thread's existence is insulting.  (But to be clear, I'm not reporting anything--I have pretty high disgust sensitivity and I think fights are best performed with words)

But I'm sorry you are insulted Malcat.  You have made some good points in this thread, I don't think we disagree that much.

You know this thread was started by a man, right?

And if you are genuinely trying to apologize to Malcat, the correct phrase is "I'm sorry I insulted you", not "I'm sorry you are insulted."

[OtherJen]

As a not particularly outgoing person, I find find it mildly distressing to stare at people's eyes when talking to them.  My habit has always to be to stare at people's chests (men and women), something that was pointed out to me some time back and that I'm trying to correct when addressing women.

Sometimes people read into behaviour things that aren't there.

Generally I appreciate your perspective, @GuitarStv , but as someone who started receiving teasing from her classmates about her breast size at age 11 and has been leered at, talked down to, and body shamed so many times that I've lost count in the 32 years since then, I think my perspective probably carries a bit more weight here. I also strongly suspect that I'm not the only person with breasts on these forums who has a similar lived experience.

I'm not trying to say that your lived experience was wrong.  Just wanted to point out that while I do still occasionally talk to someone's chest, it's not done for sexual gratification or in any attempt to make them feel uncomfortable.

From my perspective, I can't determine that in the moment. All I want is for men to stop staring at my chest. I sincerely doubt that your personal situation, while unfortunate, afflicts the majority of the male population.

[Cool Friend]

I think we can say beauty contests will always exist....Most men are more attracted to a woman closer to the middle of the bell curve anyway.

But I'm not making generalizations, I've been careful not to speak in certainties.

:|

[RetiredAt63]

Re STEM, the original computer programmers were women.  Has no-one watched Hidden Figures?

And I could have gone much further in my scientific career if I had had a wife who would go out and get a job while I did my PhD.  And look after the kids while I spent long hours in the lab.

[RetiredAt63]

Let's look back at the original post:
Damn these new reports are so depressing and upsetting. WTF is going on with men? What’s causing all of these rage shootings? Why are men still raping women and children? Why is physical abuse still a thing? Why is war with other countries still even an option?

Why will men choose violence against others before therapy to treat their rage or depression?

When and how will this insanity end? It has to bloody end!

We have strayed far from the original topic.

Sure women and men have some biological differences. 
Sure men and women have grown up to different social expectations.
Sure, psychologists estimate vaguely 4% of the population is sociopathic (no good number by sex but definitely sociopathic women out there, not just men, possibly 50:50 and women are just trained to hide it better).
Sure the topic is "not all men".

Because the topic is, why are some men doing these very violent, antisocial activities?  Sure women do anti-social actions.  But the proportion who do are way less.

And it isn't because men are innately violent.  I have read that the biggest difficulty in training modern soldiers is getting them to actually be violent against other people.  So most men as well as most women have figured out the social norm that we are not violent to each other. 

So it comes back to, why do some men feel that violence is the answer?  All the way from individual violence (domestic abuse) to public violence.  And much as guns may be contributing factors, a Toronto man rented a van so he could run over women, because he didn't have access to a gun.  So the willingness to be violent comes before the actually methodology of being violent.

[partgypsy]

I feel that this conversation derailed somewhere. My perspective. I have a PhD in the sciences. In Hs in the 80s had a male math teacher say flat out that females could not do math in the same way males could. As far as sexist comments or gatekeeping, the more " stemy" i.e. math, physics, and the more reward, the higher the pushback there was, for a female to be there. At this stage in my life, I have very little patience with men who parrot "this is why females don't do well in stem, science, medical fields", when honestly, that is NOT the reason. I'm not saying that males and females are identical. I dgaf whether or not, males and females have the exact same distributive bell curve for any particular attribute or characteristic. Not when, females when talking about high achieving and competitive careers, still have to choose between career and family, and men do not. 

[CodingHare]

Let's look back at the original post:
Damn these new reports are so depressing and upsetting. WTF is going on with men? What’s causing all of these rage shootings? Why are men still raping women and children? Why is physical abuse still a thing? Why is war with other countries still even an option?

Why will men choose violence against others before therapy to treat their rage or depression?

When and how will this insanity end? It has to bloody end!

We have strayed far from the original topic.

Sure women and men have some biological differences. 
Sure men and women have grown up to different social expectations.
Sure, psychologists estimate vaguely 4% of the population is sociopathic (no good number by sex but definitely sociopathic women out there, not just men, possibly 50:50 and women are just trained to hide it better).
Sure the topic is "not all men".

Because the topic is, why are some men doing these very violent, antisocial activities?  Sure women do anti-social actions.  But the proportion who do are way less.

And it isn't because men are innately violent.  I have read that the biggest difficulty in training modern soldiers is getting them to actually be violent against other people.  So most men as well as most women have figured out the social norm that we are not violent to each other. 

So it comes back to, why do some men feel that violence is the answer?  All the way from individual violence (domestic abuse) to public violence.  And much as guns may be contributing factors, a Toronto man rented a van so he could run over women, because he didn't have access to a gun.  So the willingness to be violent comes before the actually methodology of being violent.

For why, we've already speculated answers ranging from "equality feels like disenfranchisement to the privileged", social upheaval from a largely non-physical job market, social upheaval from not kicking women out of the economy, and biological differences that we all agree exist but disagree on how much they contribute.

I'm much more interested in "what now."  Solutions like teaching body consent from a young age.  Solutions like integrated Scouts instead of Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts to get kids interacting without a gender barrier.  Reducing economic anxiety by reducing education costs due to student loans and the possibility of medical bankruptcy.  Focusing on individual's needs instead of "male presenting child = toy truck"--what if that kid enjoys fashion and wants to be a fashion designer later?  Individuals, not generalities.

[CodingHare]

I feel that this conversation derailed somewhere. My perspective. I have a PhD in the sciences. In Hs in the 80s had a male math teacher say flat out that females could not do math in the same way males could. As far as sexist comments or gatekeeping, the more " stemy" i.e. math, physics, and the more reward, the higher the pushback there was, for a female to be there. At this stage in my life, I have very little patience with men who parrot "this is why females don't do well in stem, science, medical fields", when honestly, that is NOT the reason. I'm not saying that males and females are identical. I dgaf whether or not, males and females have the exact same distributive bell curve for any particular attribute or characteristic. Not when, females when talking about high achieving and competitive careers, still have to choose between career and family, and men do not.

This.  All of this.

[partgypsy]

As far as the original question, its complicated. There will always be a certain level of violence and crime in any society.access to guns, formation of online and other types of groups or ideologies that promote rationalization for violence,lack of strong families and feeling of communities, poor mental health safety nets, etc make violence more likely.

[GuitarStv]

And it isn't because men are innately violent.  I have read that the biggest difficulty in training modern soldiers is getting them to actually be violent against other people.  So most men as well as most women have figured out the social norm that we are not violent to each other.

I don't know if you can draw that conclusion from the reaction of those recruits.

My experience over years of boxing and wrestling is that most people have a strong natural hesitance to be violent . . . if the person they're being violent to is likely to fight back.  It takes a lot of courage to throw a punch at someone who you know will hit you back, hard.

When they think there will be little to no real risk to themselves though there's a real split.  In that case I'd say that about 40% of people off the street are very happy to inflict violence on someone else and about 60% are terrified to do so.  And you could never tell who was going to go what way.  Each of the gyms that I belonged to had a different shake down method of testing how a new person was going to behave, and kept a tight lid on the newcomers until we had figured out which way they were going to go.  There are a lot of people out there who are very happy to inflict violence on others when they feel they can get away with it.

[Wrenchturner]

As far as the original question, its complicated. There will always be a certain level of violence and crime in any society.access to guns, formation of online and other types of groups or ideologies that promote rationalization for violence,lack of strong families and feeling of communities, poor mental health safety nets, etc make violence more likely.

good points

[Kris]

Talking about toxic behaviour.  I just saw on the news, some sperm donor father in the US dumped 80,000 pennies on his ex-wife's lawn, his final child support payment.  What a way to show how little respect you have for your daughter that you have had no contact with for years or the ex-wife who has raised your joint child for years.  The mother and daughter donated it all to a women's shelter.

Spoiler: show

Not saying it couldn't happen here, we have stupid jerks too.  Just wouldn't be pennies, it would have to be nickels or dimes.  Or loonies or toonies, which might be a little less dramatic.   I wonder if we will have any copycats.

A custody issue is a poor example of the general case.

To the point, though:
men tend to manifest their disputes in overt and more physical ways, women tend to be more subversive and use reputational damage.  I would argue male disputes are more brief and acute--men will reconcile after disputes faster than women in my experience.  Also, men are the inexpensive gamete--we are supposed to have wider deviation.  Many more males at the extremes, for better or worse.

"What's right with men?" 
Why are men usually the ones pushing new frontiers in a given field?  For the same reasons--ambition can be pathological too, and it tends to be male, and we often benefit from it as a society.  Men do the competing, and women do the selecting, at least historically.  Lots of modern affectations involved here though, like the lack of physical labor in most jobs as others have previously mentioned.  (and yes, sexism has held women down to some degree in this area)

I'm sorry, what?

You think men make more advances in professional fields because of their biology? Not because of the systemic challenges that hold women back from advancing to positions of authority or taking as many professional risks??

N'ah, I'm not buying that.

Do you have any idea what it's like for women pushing aggressive change in the professional world???

Thank you.

Yeah, I read Wrenchturner’s post, and thought, “Nope. I do not have the energy for that BS. Someone else will reply.”

Ugh.

[Bloop Bloop Reloaded]

I'm much more interested in "what now."  Solutions like teaching body consent from a young age.  Solutions like integrated Scouts instead of Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts to get kids interacting without a gender barrier.  Reducing economic anxiety by reducing education costs due to student loans and the possibility of medical bankruptcy.  Focusing on individual's needs instead of "male presenting child = toy truck"--what if that kid enjoys fashion and wants to be a fashion designer later?  Individuals, not generalities.

All this comes down to teaching men (indeed, everyone - but men have this worse than women) that nothing in life is guaranteed to them; you have no entitlement to a 'good' job, nor to social respect, nor to a subservient partner, nor to a fawning community. Women and minorities have known this for centuries as they have had to skulk around the shadows of men. Welcome men to the real world. Enjoy your stay.

[RetiredAt63]

I'm much more interested in "what now."  Solutions like teaching body consent from a young age.  Solutions like integrated Scouts instead of Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts to get kids interacting without a gender barrier.  Reducing economic anxiety by reducing education costs due to student loans and the possibility of medical bankruptcy.  Focusing on individual's needs instead of "male presenting child = toy truck"--what if that kid enjoys fashion and wants to be a fashion designer later?  Individuals, not generalities.

All this comes down to teaching men (indeed, everyone - but men have this worse than women) that nothing in life is guaranteed to them; you have no entitlement to a 'good' job, nor to social respect, nor to a subservient partner, nor to a fawning community. Women and minorities have known this for centuries as they have had to skulk around the shadows of men. Welcome men to the real world. Enjoy your stay.

And then of course is how do we teach this?

Movies are horrible examples.  So many where the man's persistence pays off.  That is from the guy's perspective.  From the woman's he hounds her, won't take no for an answer.

Co-ed schools do help apparently, but by school it is almost too late.  Pre-schools?  Daycare?

We know social/cultural attitudes can change.   I've seen it in my lifetime.  No-one used to think anything of partying and having a few (or more than a few) drinks and then driving home.  We don't now.

Smoking - watch old movies, and they don't have to be that old.  So much smoking.

Going back further.  In many places wealth was the land, trade was middle class to lower class.  Now the rich business-man is acclaimed.  And so are predatory tactics.  The only difference between now and then is that legislation prevents all those good practices like chalk added to milk and filthy slaughterhouses and who knows what in your sausage and rivers running brown or green or whatever else from what has been dumped in them. And we have seen how vulnerable protective legislation is when people who think it interferes with their business get into power. (I'm not just thinking Trump here, Stephen Harper really messed up Canada's environmental protection laws when he was PM).

But other behaviours are still accepted.  All the misogyny in movies is still here.  All the misogyny of public men is still there.   I know, not all men.  But enough to make it seem like acceptable behaviour.

But the other thing is that some people still go for the now-socially  unacceptable behaviours.  We all read of someone who just killed people while driving drunk, who had been caught driving drunk so much that they had lost their license, but were still behind the wheel  We still see a few people who are heavy smokers.  We still see road rage - in fact road rage is a relatively new one, it had no name when I was young.

So ?????????

[former player]

I walked my dog on the beach this morning (welcome to FIRE, folks) and met a chap I know in the village, walking a dog for a friend with a broken foot.  Nice middle aged chap whose daughter is getting married in the church next week, does a lot to help out around the village.  The dogs started playing, and he described the dog he was walking (it's a lovely golden retriever) as a coward and said "he's such a girl"*.

It's fucking everywhere, this fucking sexism.

*I said to him "that's not an insult where I come from".

[RetiredAt63]

I walked my dog on the beach this morning (welcome to FIRE, folks) and met a chap I know in the village, walking a dog for a friend with a broken foot.  Nice middle aged chap whose daughter is getting married in the church next week, does a lot to help out around the village.  The dogs started playing, and he described the dog he was walking (it's a lovely golden retriever) as a coward and said "he's such a girl"*.

It's fucking everywhere, this fucking sexism.

*I said to him "that's not an insult where I come from".

Oh my.  Just oh my.

Good reply.

[chemistk]

I'm much more interested in "what now."  Solutions like teaching body consent from a young age.  Solutions like integrated Scouts instead of Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts to get kids interacting without a gender barrier.  Reducing economic anxiety by reducing education costs due to student loans and the possibility of medical bankruptcy.  Focusing on individual's needs instead of "male presenting child = toy truck"--what if that kid enjoys fashion and wants to be a fashion designer later?  Individuals, not generalities.

All this comes down to teaching men (indeed, everyone - but men have this worse than women) that nothing in life is guaranteed to them; you have no entitlement to a 'good' job, nor to social respect, nor to a subservient partner, nor to a fawning community. Women and minorities have known this for centuries as they have had to skulk around the shadows of men. Welcome men to the real world. Enjoy your stay.

And then of course is how do we teach this?

Movies are horrible examples.  So many where the man's persistence pays off.  That is from the guy's perspective.  From the woman's he hounds her, won't take no for an answer.

Co-ed schools do help apparently, but by school it is almost too late.  Pre-schools?  Daycare?

We know social/cultural attitudes can change.   I've seen it in my lifetime.  No-one used to think anything of partying and having a few (or more than a few) drinks and then driving home.  We don't now.

Smoking - watch old movies, and they don't have to be that old.  So much smoking.

Going back further.  In many places wealth was the land, trade was middle class to lower class.  Now the rich business-man is acclaimed.  And so are predatory tactics.  The only difference between now and then is that legislation prevents all those good practices like chalk added to milk and filthy slaughterhouses and who knows what in your sausage and rivers running brown or green or whatever else from what has been dumped in them. And we have seen how vulnerable protective legislation is when people who think it interferes with their business get into power. (I'm not just thinking Trump here, Stephen Harper really messed up Canada's environmental protection laws when he was PM).

But other behaviours are still accepted.  All the misogyny in movies is still here.  All the misogyny of public men is still there.   I know, not all men.  But enough to make it seem like acceptable behaviour.

But the other thing is that some people still go for the now-socially  unacceptable behaviours.  We all read of someone who just killed people while driving drunk, who had been caught driving drunk so much that they had lost their license, but were still behind the wheel  We still see a few people who are heavy smokers.  We still see road rage - in fact road rage is a relatively new one, it had no name when I was young.

So ?????????

There isn't really one solution, methinks.

As a father of three young boys, I see it as my responsibility to snuff out all of the sexist, racist, classist, and other 'bad' societal norms and to replace them with positive examples of how to treat everyone with dignity and respect.

But that's just me, and I can't be a decent male role model to many more than my own kids.

I can encourage friends and family who are parents or who spend time around kids to do the same as me, but in their own houses, I have no say in what gets taught (or worse, what doesn't).

I could (when my life's schedule allows) become a coach, or mentor, or community figure and lead by example - but in doing so I have to worry about becoming a martyr to those who would seek to undermine my good intentions.

And that's just me. I know there are other guys out there who would have a similar approach, but culturally it's never going to happen from a top-down approach. The change, especially changing the attitudes of men toward their role in society and how to positively view and interact with anyone who is not a man (and more crucially for much of the US, a middle class white man), is fundamentally a grassroots thing. It has to happen at the dinner table, on the sports field, in the car, and at a holiday meal.

Perhaps the biggest hurdle to overcome is evident in this thread. This forum is fundamentally progressive even though its members cover a spectrum of sociopolitical views, and yet we still can't come to a consensus about just about anything that's not money related (and even then, usually not). I still learn something here just about every day, including in this topic. So many would-be role models don't have the luxury or the exposure to discussions that help them orient themselves to be norm-breakers.

RetiredAt63 - your examples are mostly slow-simmering/didn't-happen-overnight shifts, and I think this one is just like those for better or worse. Our culture has been seeded with the notion that it's acceptable for men to be non-conforming to the previously entrenched cultural ideal. Now those seeds must grow.

[Bloop Bloop Reloaded]

The easiest way is through slow social change. It's no longer seen as cool to smoke cigarettes. It's seen as stupid. In time, it will no longer be seen as cool to dominate over your spouse or criticise another person's gender attributes or show overt aggression (other than in those few contexts where it's appropriate). There is still a lot of racism, but it's generally seen as being not okay - and in time, casual sexism/heteronormativity will be seen in that same light. And I think another thing we can do is to increase non-male, non-white representation in culture and politics.

And teach our kids that they're not entitled to anything. Not even a good life.

[CupcakeGuru]

As a not particularly outgoing person, I find find it mildly distressing to stare at people's eyes when talking to them.  My habit has always to be to stare at people's chests (men and women), something that was pointed out to me some time back and that I'm trying to correct when addressing women.

Sometimes people read into behaviour things that aren't there.

Generally I appreciate your perspective, @GuitarStv , but as someone who started receiving teasing from her classmates about her breast size at age 11 and has been leered at, talked down to, and body shamed so many times that I've lost count in the 32 years since then, I think my perspective probably carries a bit more weight here. I also strongly suspect that I'm not the only person with breasts on these forums who has a similar lived experience.

I'm not trying to say that your lived experience was wrong.  Just wanted to point out that while I do still occasionally talk to someone's chest, it's not done for sexual gratification or in any attempt to make them feel uncomfortable.

You are an adult. Stop looking at people chests when talking to them.

[Metalcat]

Things do change and they are changing.

There's so much that used to be commonplace from even just 20 years ago that wouldn't fly now. There's also so much that's commonplace now that wouldn't fly back then. And I'm not talking back in the 80s, I mean the early 2000s.

Things are ALWAYS changing. The only constant is change.

That's the thing, it's a constant back and forth tension between progressivism and conservatism. Progressive forces push for change and conservative forces push against change, and slowly over time things change as we slowly build consensus as to which forms of progress we can collectively stomach.

The progressive forces always feel held back and the conservative forces always feel like the progressives are "going too far this time". And I don't mean progressive people vs conservative people. Everyone is either progressive or conservative on a specific issue. Absolutely everyone is either for a certain type of change or against it.

That's why people typically get more conservative over time. They usually started out progressive, and then slowly got a lot of the changes they wanted, and then would like things to stay that way for at least a little while.

There aren't stagnant forces that we can culturally suddenly decide to eliminate, we have a huge, dynamic interplay of almost countless factors, all of which influence one another, and yes for anyone out there talking about biology, this includes biology, which is also a dynamic changing/changeable factor (not just genetics *eyeroll*).

It's a slow process, it's deeply imperfect, it's very uncomfortable for all involved, and usually people get very hurt.

That's society.

[partgypsy]

Things do change and they are changing.

There's so much that used to be commonplace from even just 20 years ago that wouldn't fly now. There's also so much that's commonplace now that wouldn't fly back then. And I'm not talking back in the 80s, I mean the early 2000s.

Things are ALWAYS changing. The only constant is change.

That's the thing, it's a constant back and forth tension between progressivism and conservatism. Progressive forces push for change and conservative forces push against change, and slowly over time things change as we slowly build consensus as to which forms of progress we can collectively stomach.

The progressive forces always feel held back and the conservative forces always feel like the progressives are "going too far this time". And I don't mean progressive people vs conservative people. Everyone is either progressive or conservative on a specific issue. Absolutely everyone is either for a certain type of change or against it.

That's why people typically get more conservative over time. They usually started out progressive, and then slowly got a lot of the changes they wanted, and then would like things to stay that way for at least a little while.

There aren't stagnant forces that we can culturally suddenly decide to eliminate, we have a huge, dynamic interplay of almost countless factors, all of which influence one another, and yes for anyone out there talking about biology, this includes biology, which is also a dynamic changing/changeable factor (not just genetics *eyeroll*).

It's a slow process, it's deeply imperfect, it's very uncomfortable for all involved, and usually people get very hurt.

That's society.

I think you are right about that. I am progressive in some areas (environment, role of science in policy making) centrist in some areas (race, gender, and conservative in some areas (some culture stuff).

[OtherJen]

As a not particularly outgoing person, I find find it mildly distressing to stare at people's eyes when talking to them.  My habit has always to be to stare at people's chests (men and women), something that was pointed out to me some time back and that I'm trying to correct when addressing women.

Sometimes people read into behaviour things that aren't there.

Generally I appreciate your perspective, @GuitarStv , but as someone who started receiving teasing from her classmates about her breast size at age 11 and has been leered at, talked down to, and body shamed so many times that I've lost count in the 32 years since then, I think my perspective probably carries a bit more weight here. I also strongly suspect that I'm not the only person with breasts on these forums who has a similar lived experience.

I'm not trying to say that your lived experience was wrong.  Just wanted to point out that while I do still occasionally talk to someone's chest, it's not done for sexual gratification or in any attempt to make them feel uncomfortable.

You are an adult. Stop looking at people chests when talking to them.

Thank you. I think this is why this exchange is still bugging me.

At this point, I don't care WHY a man might be staring at/talking to my chest; I only want it to stop. I've spent 30-odd years dressing very carefully and conservatively, avoiding certain athletic activities, hunching, wearing cage-like minimizer bras, etc. in the hopes of making it stop by not drawing attention to myself. I didn't wear some of the cute fashions and makeup that were popular when I was in high school because some friends' parents were already leery of having me around their kids (apparently tits = bad influence). I went through a phase a few years ago wherein I wore cuter clothing, kept my hair styled, and wore makeup. Ended up with a stalker, a former supposed friend who apparently would make gross comments about my body when I was out of earshot. Now I pretty much live in clothing that I can sleep in, cut my own hair, have thrown out my red lipsticks, and hide in my house a lot of the time. It feels safer not to make myself look good. Invisibility sounds fucking great.

I'm pretty much out of patience for excuses for why a man might talk to my chest. I'm not even sure what I'm supposed to do with that information. It doesn't change my discomfort or the unacceptability of the behavior.

[Watchmaker]

I walked my dog on the beach this morning (welcome to FIRE, folks) and met a chap I know in the village, walking a dog for a friend with a broken foot.  Nice middle aged chap whose daughter is getting married in the church next week, does a lot to help out around the village.  The dogs started playing, and he described the dog he was walking (it's a lovely golden retriever) as a coward and said "he's such a girl"*.

It's fucking everywhere, this fucking sexism.

*I said to him "that's not an insult where I come from".

Growing up, I called things that I thought weren't cool "gay". In my mind it wasn't intended to be a slur toward gay people, and I don't recall ever feeling any homophobia. But none of that changes how it would feel to others to hear me use that word derogatorily.  I almost certainly also said similar things as the dog walker (e.g. "he's such a girl"). Same thing applies--if you'd asked me whether I was meaning to insult women I would have said absolutely not. But that doesn't change the impact. As I matured, I thought more about the words I used, and stopped saying things like that. It's a process of course, so I'm sure I still unwittingly use words and expressions that cause others pain. I do my best to continue to consider my words carefully.

As a not particularly outgoing person, I find find it mildly distressing to stare at people's eyes when talking to them.  My habit has always to be to stare at people's chests (men and women), something that was pointed out to me some time back and that I'm trying to correct when addressing women.

Sometimes people read into behaviour things that aren't there.

But it doesn't matter (much) why you think you stare at peoples chests--the impact on them is the same regardless, and it's the impact we should be concerned about.

[CupcakeGuru]

As a not particularly outgoing person, I find find it mildly distressing to stare at people's eyes when talking to them.  My habit has always to be to stare at people's chests (men and women), something that was pointed out to me some time back and that I'm trying to correct when addressing women.

Sometimes people read into behaviour things that aren't there.

Generally I appreciate your perspective, @GuitarStv , but as someone who started receiving teasing from her classmates about her breast size at age 11 and has been leered at, talked down to, and body shamed so many times that I've lost count in the 32 years since then, I think my perspective probably carries a bit more weight here. I also strongly suspect that I'm not the only person with breasts on these forums who has a similar lived experience.

I'm not trying to say that your lived experience was wrong.  Just wanted to point out that while I do still occasionally talk to someone's chest, it's not done for sexual gratification or in any attempt to make them feel uncomfortable.

You are an adult. Stop looking at people chests when talking to them.

Thank you. I think this is why this exchange is still bugging me.

At this point, I don't care WHY a man might be staring at/talking to my chest; I only want it to stop. I've spent 30-odd years dressing very carefully and conservatively, avoiding certain athletic activities, hunching, wearing cage-like minimizer bras, etc. in the hopes of making it stop by not drawing attention to myself. I didn't wear some of the cute fashions and makeup that were popular when I was in high school because some friends' parents were already leery of having me around their kids (apparently tits = bad influence). I went through a phase a few years ago wherein I wore cuter clothing, kept my hair styled, and wore makeup. Ended up with a stalker, a former supposed friend who apparently would make gross comments about my body when I was out of earshot. Now I pretty much live in clothing that I can sleep in, cut my own hair, have thrown out my red lipsticks, and hide in my house a lot of the time. It feels safer not to make myself look good. Invisibility sounds fucking great.

I'm pretty much out of patience for excuses for why a man might talk to my chest. I'm not even sure what I'm supposed to do with that information. It doesn't change my discomfort or the unacceptability of the behavior.

@OtherJen. Decades ago I had a boss who was a former stock broker. She was one of the first female stock brokers in Manhattan, her name was Janet. By the time I met her, she was in her 50's and a SVP at our company. There was one female employee, Sue,  who was very attractive and also had large breasts. She did her best to "hide" them because we worked with mostly men brokers and investment bankers who frequently made inappropriate comments. When some of them would "talk" to Sue, they stared at her breasts. Janet, who was at most 5 feet tall, would wave her hand next to Sue's head and would say "Up here gentlemen".

I talked to Sue a couple of months ago and she says she has been doing the "Up here gentlemen" comment for years and she credits Janet with giving her the strength to respond back to inappropriate behavior.

[Metalcat]

I think you are right about that. I am progressive in some areas (environment, role of science in policy making) centrist in some areas (race, gender, and conservative in some areas (some culture stuff).

Absolutely everyone is. Everyone has changes that they like and changes that they don't like.

No one is for or against all forms of change.

It's the fact that people are all over the place that makes change so awkward and clumsy. Change personally affects people differently, and their personal experiences bias their perceptions.

If it was simply a matter of vast swaths of people being on the exact same page in terms of progressivism or conservativism, then change would be swift and efficient. But that's not how it works.

Building consensus is a tremendously tedious process. Broad societal trends and changes are just that, a slow, grinding, awful process of building vague consensus about what behaviour is acceptable and what isn't.

It's always going to be a cluster fuck where almost no one is happy.
Anyone who has been in charge of getting a large group to agree on anything knows that.

[Metalcat]

As a not particularly outgoing person, I find find it mildly distressing to stare at people's eyes when talking to them.  My habit has always to be to stare at people's chests (men and women), something that was pointed out to me some time back and that I'm trying to correct when addressing women.

Sometimes people read into behaviour things that aren't there.

Generally I appreciate your perspective, @GuitarStv , but as someone who started receiving teasing from her classmates about her breast size at age 11 and has been leered at, talked down to, and body shamed so many times that I've lost count in the 32 years since then, I think my perspective probably carries a bit more weight here. I also strongly suspect that I'm not the only person with breasts on these forums who has a similar lived experience.

I'm not trying to say that your lived experience was wrong.  Just wanted to point out that while I do still occasionally talk to someone's chest, it's not done for sexual gratification or in any attempt to make them feel uncomfortable.

You are an adult. Stop looking at people chests when talking to them.

Thank you. I think this is why this exchange is still bugging me.

At this point, I don't care WHY a man might be staring at/talking to my chest; I only want it to stop. I've spent 30-odd years dressing very carefully and conservatively, avoiding certain athletic activities, hunching, wearing cage-like minimizer bras, etc. in the hopes of making it stop by not drawing attention to myself. I didn't wear some of the cute fashions and makeup that were popular when I was in high school because some friends' parents were already leery of having me around their kids (apparently tits = bad influence). I went through a phase a few years ago wherein I wore cuter clothing, kept my hair styled, and wore makeup. Ended up with a stalker, a former supposed friend who apparently would make gross comments about my body when I was out of earshot. Now I pretty much live in clothing that I can sleep in, cut my own hair, have thrown out my red lipsticks, and hide in my house a lot of the time. It feels safer not to make myself look good. Invisibility sounds fucking great.

I'm pretty much out of patience for excuses for why a man might talk to my chest. I'm not even sure what I'm supposed to do with that information. It doesn't change my discomfort or the unacceptability of the behavior.

@OtherJen. Decades ago I had a boss who was a former stock broker. She was one of the first female stock brokers in Manhattan, her name was Janet. By the time I met her, she was in her 50's and a SVP at our company. There was one female employee, Sue,  who was very attractive and also had large breasts. She did her best to "hide" them because we worked with mostly men brokers and investment bankers who frequently made inappropriate comments. When some of them would "talk" to Sue, they stared at her breasts. Janet, who was at most 5 feet tall, would wave her hand next to Sue's head and would say "Up here gentlemen".

I talked to Sue a couple of months ago and she says she has been doing the "Up here gentlemen" comment for years and she credits Janet with giving her the strength to respond back to inappropriate behavior.

Ironically, it was easier to get away with that back in the day when blatant sexism was more acceptable because a lot of men were less offended by having their leering called out.

Nowadays, because it's so much less acceptable, ironically men can be A LOT more hostile and defensive when called out for it because they feel their character is being attacked.

I'm actually *much* more cautious these days about directly confronting leering than I used to be. Back in the day when I would get a lot of comments about my cleavage, I could call a man, even a boss, a "perv" and he would laugh it off and say "well can you blame me?". Nowadays, I would have to be far more delicate, especially with my patients because it's actually my job to make sure they feel safe with me no matter how I feel about them.

Because yes, I've had many male patients make overt comments about my breasts.

So yes, progress is being made, but as I said before, it's often awkward and painful. I would rather a man who says something inappropriate about my body feel deeply self conscious when called out, but it sucks that I have to deal with worse consequences as a result.

[GuitarStv]

As a not particularly outgoing person, I find find it mildly distressing to stare at people's eyes when talking to them.  My habit has always to be to stare at people's chests (men and women), something that was pointed out to me some time back and that I'm trying to correct when addressing women.

Sometimes people read into behaviour things that aren't there.

Generally I appreciate your perspective, @GuitarStv , but as someone who started receiving teasing from her classmates about her breast size at age 11 and has been leered at, talked down to, and body shamed so many times that I've lost count in the 32 years since then, I think my perspective probably carries a bit more weight here. I also strongly suspect that I'm not the only person with breasts on these forums who has a similar lived experience.

I'm not trying to say that your lived experience was wrong.  Just wanted to point out that while I do still occasionally talk to someone's chest, it's not done for sexual gratification or in any attempt to make them feel uncomfortable.

You are an adult. Stop looking at people chests when talking to them.

Thank you. I think this is why this exchange is still bugging me.

At this point, I don't care WHY a man might be staring at/talking to my chest; I only want it to stop. I've spent 30-odd years dressing very carefully and conservatively, avoiding certain athletic activities, hunching, wearing cage-like minimizer bras, etc. in the hopes of making it stop by not drawing attention to myself. I didn't wear some of the cute fashions and makeup that were popular when I was in high school because some friends' parents were already leery of having me around their kids (apparently tits = bad influence). I went through a phase a few years ago wherein I wore cuter clothing, kept my hair styled, and wore makeup. Ended up with a stalker, a former supposed friend who apparently would make gross comments about my body when I was out of earshot. Now I pretty much live in clothing that I can sleep in, cut my own hair, have thrown out my red lipsticks, and hide in my house a lot of the time. It feels safer not to make myself look good. Invisibility sounds fucking great.

I'm pretty much out of patience for excuses for why a man might talk to my chest. I'm not even sure what I'm supposed to do with that information. It doesn't change my discomfort or the unacceptability of the behavior.

I understand where you're coming from (honestly) and your feelings are certainly valid.  Although you've already indicated that you don't care at all, please let me give you some background on my own experiences.

In elementary school, I was a small kid who liked books.  We had moved to a tiny, remote town where most of the kids were cliquish.  I wore glasses and was bullied pretty often.  My parents were of the 'no fighting is ever acceptable and you should always get a teacher to resolve the problem' school of thought, so this was the advice that I was always given.  And it never really worked.  I learned that teachers weren't going to help me (they didn't care), I was physically too small to have much hope of fighting back and winning, and I didn't really have any friends who would help me.  So I tried to just become invisible and hide from the people who were hurting me.

Anyway, this continued well into high school.  In high school, the bullying took on a more vicious aspect.  While I continued to try to avoid the people who were bullying me they became more and more interested in seeking me out and hurting me.  The incidents became increasingly violent.  I was regularly bruised and scraped from these encounters.  My nose was broken on one occasion when I was knocked to the ground and kicked in the face.  During one incident, a classmate jumped me from behind, grabbed me by the neck, and choked me until I passed out.  I don't remember how long I was unconscious, but other classmates who saw this attack said it was more than 5 minutes when we filed the police report.  I started carrying a knife on my person at all times with the full intent to continuously stab anyone else who attacked me to death - fortunately at around this time, the attacks stopped.  It's still difficult for me to think about this period of my life without feeling a mixture of rage and shame.

Later in life I developed an interest in boxing, wrestling, and martial arts as a way of developing more confidence and have been able to a large degree to work out many of the issues arising from this.  I still have some habits that are very deeply ingrained, one is stepping back if someone quickly comes within a few feet of me, one is backing off if someone speaks unexpectedly loudly, and one of them is a strong aversion to staring directly into someone's eyes - particularly if this is someone I do not know very well or someone who is physically larger than me.  This happens more often with men, but occasionally with women as well.  There is a part of my brain that expects immediate physical altercation from staring at someone's eyes.  I'm not looking for and don't expect sympathy - this is my problem.  As mentioned, I have realized that this is something that can easily be misconstrued and have been working on fixing it for a long time.  But truly sometimes things are not as simple as "You're an adult, just stop looking at people's chests when you talk to them".

[Tyler durden]

As a not particularly outgoing person, I find find it mildly distressing to stare at people's eyes when talking to them.  My habit has always to be to stare at people's chests (men and women), something that was pointed out to me some time back and that I'm trying to correct when addressing women.

Sometimes people read into behaviour things that aren't there.

Generally I appreciate your perspective, @GuitarStv , but as someone who started receiving teasing from her classmates about her breast size at age 11 and has been leered at, talked down to, and body shamed so many times that I've lost count in the 32 years since then, I think my perspective probably carries a bit more weight here. I also strongly suspect that I'm not the only person with breasts on these forums who has a similar lived experience.

I'm not trying to say that your lived experience was wrong.  Just wanted to point out that while I do still occasionally talk to someone's chest, it's not done for sexual gratification or in any attempt to make them feel uncomfortable.

You are an adult. Stop looking at people chests when talking to them.

Thank you. I think this is why this exchange is still bugging me.

At this point, I don't care WHY a man might be staring at/talking to my chest; I only want it to stop. I've spent 30-odd years dressing very carefully and conservatively, avoiding certain athletic activities, hunching, wearing cage-like minimizer bras, etc. in the hopes of making it stop by not drawing attention to myself. I didn't wear some of the cute fashions and makeup that were popular when I was in high school because some friends' parents were already leery of having me around their kids (apparently tits = bad influence). I went through a phase a few years ago wherein I wore cuter clothing, kept my hair styled, and wore makeup. Ended up with a stalker, a former supposed friend who apparently would make gross comments about my body when I was out of earshot. Now I pretty much live in clothing that I can sleep in, cut my own hair, have thrown out my red lipsticks, and hide in my house a lot of the time. It feels safer not to make myself look good. Invisibility sounds fucking great.

I'm pretty much out of patience for excuses for why a man might talk to my chest. I'm not even sure what I'm supposed to do with that information. It doesn't change my discomfort or the unacceptability of the behavior.

@OtherJen. Decades ago I had a boss who was a former stock broker. She was one of the first female stock brokers in Manhattan, her name was Janet. By the time I met her, she was in her 50's and a SVP at our company. There was one female employee, Sue,  who was very attractive and also had large breasts. She did her best to "hide" them because we worked with mostly men brokers and investment bankers who frequently made inappropriate comments. When some of them would "talk" to Sue, they stared at her breasts. Janet, who was at most 5 feet tall, would wave her hand next to Sue's head and would say "Up here gentlemen".

I talked to Sue a couple of months ago and she says she has been doing the "Up here gentlemen" comment for years and she credits Janet with giving her the strength to respond back to inappropriate behavior.

Ironically, it was easier to get away with that back in the day when blatant sexism was more acceptable because a lot of men were less offended by having their leering called out.

Nowadays, because it's so much less acceptable, ironically men can be A LOT more hostile and defensive when called out for it because they feel their character is being attacked.

I'm actually *much* more cautious these days about directly confronting leering than I used to be. Back in the day when I would get a lot of comments about my cleavage, I could call a man, even a boss, a "perv" and he would laugh it off and say "well can you blame me?". Nowadays, I would have to be far more delicate, especially with my patients because it's actually my job to make sure they feel safe with me no matter how I feel about them.

Because yes, I've had many male patients make overt comments about my breasts.

So yes, progress is being made, but as I said before, it's often awkward and painful. I would rather a man who says something inappropriate about my body feel deeply self conscious when called out, but it sucks that I have to deal with worse consequences as a result.

Honest question here, not saying this as a defense of men's behavior. It would seem to me there are shades or nuances with the leering thing.

Say for example a women wears an extremely revealing blouse/shirt, and I get caught looking. What is that? I mean she's not wearing that shirt so I look at her eyes... are there nuances here or is it just straight up any looking is bad 100% of the time. Lets assume this is a non work environment. Not a boss subordinate situation. I wouldnt view that as inappropriate under the right circumstances, but thats why im asking, im interested in other perspectives.

[MudPuppy]

she's not wearing that shirt so I look at her eyes

Her choice of shirt isn’t about you, full stop. Look at people in their faces like a decent member of society.

[former player]

she's not wearing that shirt so I look at her eyes

Her choice of shirt isn’t about you, full stop. Look at people in their faces like a decent member of society.

And if your personal quirks prevent you from looking someone in the face, check out the polish on your shoes instead.

[Watchmaker]

Later in life I developed an interest in boxing, wrestling, and martial arts as a way of developing more confidence and have been able to a large degree to work out many of the issues arising from this.  I still have some habits that are very deeply ingrained, one is stepping back if someone quickly comes within a few feet of me, one is backing off if someone speaks unexpectedly loudly, and one of them is a strong aversion to staring directly into someone's eyes - particularly if this is someone I do not know very well or someone who is physically larger than me.  This happens more often with men, but occasionally with women as well.  There is a part of my brain that expects immediate physical altercation from staring at someone's eyes.  I'm not looking for and don't expect sympathy - this is my problem.  As mentioned, I have realized that this is something that can easily be misconstrued and have been working on fixing it for a long time.  But truly sometimes things are not as simple as "You're an adult, just stop looking at people's chests when you talk to them".

I sympathize with your history, my own is a bit similar (though less extreme). There are plenty of other places to look then people's chests though. Personally, I tend to turn 45 degrees away from people when I'm talking to them and stare off into space because I don't particularly like eye contact either.

[Wrenchturner]

This is no place for nuance Tyler.  Men are bad, mkay?

I tend to vasospasm when I get an IV.  Cold sweats, tunnel vision, nausea, the whole bit.  Usually the third iv will succeed.

Usually when this happens, at least one nurse nearby will go "awwww", because it's kinda funny that a big manly man like me gets spooked at needles.  Is that sexism?  Probably.  Is it wrong?  Not entirely.  Will it change?  I'd be surprised.

I mean, the chest-looking thing I'm actually pretty good at avoiding.  So y'all can give me credit for that.

[GuitarStv]

Later in life I developed an interest in boxing, wrestling, and martial arts as a way of developing more confidence and have been able to a large degree to work out many of the issues arising from this.  I still have some habits that are very deeply ingrained, one is stepping back if someone quickly comes within a few feet of me, one is backing off if someone speaks unexpectedly loudly, and one of them is a strong aversion to staring directly into someone's eyes - particularly if this is someone I do not know very well or someone who is physically larger than me.  This happens more often with men, but occasionally with women as well.  There is a part of my brain that expects immediate physical altercation from staring at someone's eyes.  I'm not looking for and don't expect sympathy - this is my problem.  As mentioned, I have realized that this is something that can easily be misconstrued and have been working on fixing it for a long time.  But truly sometimes things are not as simple as "You're an adult, just stop looking at people's chests when you talk to them".

I sympathize with your history, my own is a bit similar (though less extreme). There are plenty of other places to look then people's chests though. Personally, I tend to turn 45 degrees away from people when I'm talking to them and stare off into space because I don't particularly like eye contact either.

I've mostly been trying to look at people's mouth/chin area instead, as looking completely away or down at the floor is something I've also been informed is rude/dismissive behaviour.

[dreadmoose]

This is no place for nuance Tyler.  Men are bad, mkay?

I tend to vasospasm when I get an IV.  Cold sweats, tunnel vision, nausea, the whole bit.  Usually the third iv will succeed.

Usually when this happens, at least one nurse nearby will go "awwww", because it's kinda funny that a big manly man like me gets spooked at needles.  Is that sexism?  Probably.  Is it wrong?  Not entirely.  Will it change?  I'd be surprised.

I mean, the chest-looking thing I'm actually pretty good at avoiding.  So y'all can give me credit for that.

This and the comment you're replying to has to be trolling.

"In this one particular instance someone teased me for being afraid of something innocuous so I assumed they were calling me a girl and that upset me?"

Then the next point is

"I avoid most leering though, so I deserve credit for just being a decent person most of the time?"

I'm surprised that people have so much trouble listening and enacting the requests of people that have these lived experiences, but this conversation never seems to occur without these types jumping in.

Don't stare at women that haven't asked you to, how they dress is for them, or who they decide it's for. Not you.

GuitarStv, you're hearing first hand how you interact with women affects them the same way that your bullies affected you, but are not willing to "just stop staring at women's chests." May I suggest some therapy to deal with the issues you've faced while picking a different body part to speak towards? I don't know many people that actually commit to deep eye contact, most of my group tend to look at people's foreheads when speaking to them when required. Edit - this was posted before I read your last comment, those are decent options too.

[MudPuppy]

@Wrenchturner could you clarify what you mean? I’m reading that you believe it is unjust to be upset when someone stares at a part of your body in a way that is commonly known to be objectification and bordering on harassment because that person is male? Is objectification/harassment inextricably male an impossible for any male identified person to NOT participate in? If you meant something different, please help me understand.

[Metalcat]

As a not particularly outgoing person, I find find it mildly distressing to stare at people's eyes when talking to them.  My habit has always to be to stare at people's chests (men and women), something that was pointed out to me some time back and that I'm trying to correct when addressing women.

Sometimes people read into behaviour things that aren't there.

Generally I appreciate your perspective, @GuitarStv , but as someone who started receiving teasing from her classmates about her breast size at age 11 and has been leered at, talked down to, and body shamed so many times that I've lost count in the 32 years since then, I think my perspective probably carries a bit more weight here. I also strongly suspect that I'm not the only person with breasts on these forums who has a similar lived experience.

I'm not trying to say that your lived experience was wrong.  Just wanted to point out that while I do still occasionally talk to someone's chest, it's not done for sexual gratification or in any attempt to make them feel uncomfortable.

You are an adult. Stop looking at people chests when talking to them.

Thank you. I think this is why this exchange is still bugging me.

At this point, I don't care WHY a man might be staring at/talking to my chest; I only want it to stop. I've spent 30-odd years dressing very carefully and conservatively, avoiding certain athletic activities, hunching, wearing cage-like minimizer bras, etc. in the hopes of making it stop by not drawing attention to myself. I didn't wear some of the cute fashions and makeup that were popular when I was in high school because some friends' parents were already leery of having me around their kids (apparently tits = bad influence). I went through a phase a few years ago wherein I wore cuter clothing, kept my hair styled, and wore makeup. Ended up with a stalker, a former supposed friend who apparently would make gross comments about my body when I was out of earshot. Now I pretty much live in clothing that I can sleep in, cut my own hair, have thrown out my red lipsticks, and hide in my house a lot of the time. It feels safer not to make myself look good. Invisibility sounds fucking great.

I'm pretty much out of patience for excuses for why a man might talk to my chest. I'm not even sure what I'm supposed to do with that information. It doesn't change my discomfort or the unacceptability of the behavior.

@OtherJen. Decades ago I had a boss who was a former stock broker. She was one of the first female stock brokers in Manhattan, her name was Janet. By the time I met her, she was in her 50's and a SVP at our company. There was one female employee, Sue,  who was very attractive and also had large breasts. She did her best to "hide" them because we worked with mostly men brokers and investment bankers who frequently made inappropriate comments. When some of them would "talk" to Sue, they stared at her breasts. Janet, who was at most 5 feet tall, would wave her hand next to Sue's head and would say "Up here gentlemen".

I talked to Sue a couple of months ago and she says she has been doing the "Up here gentlemen" comment for years and she credits Janet with giving her the strength to respond back to inappropriate behavior.

Ironically, it was easier to get away with that back in the day when blatant sexism was more acceptable because a lot of men were less offended by having their leering called out.

Nowadays, because it's so much less acceptable, ironically men can be A LOT more hostile and defensive when called out for it because they feel their character is being attacked.

I'm actually *much* more cautious these days about directly confronting leering than I used to be. Back in the day when I would get a lot of comments about my cleavage, I could call a man, even a boss, a "perv" and he would laugh it off and say "well can you blame me?". Nowadays, I would have to be far more delicate, especially with my patients because it's actually my job to make sure they feel safe with me no matter how I feel about them.

Because yes, I've had many male patients make overt comments about my breasts.

So yes, progress is being made, but as I said before, it's often awkward and painful. I would rather a man who says something inappropriate about my body feel deeply self conscious when called out, but it sucks that I have to deal with worse consequences as a result.

Honest question here, not saying this as a defense of men's behavior. It would seem to me there are shades or nuances with the leering thing.

Say for example a women wears an extremely revealing blouse/shirt, and I get caught looking. What is that? I mean she's not wearing that shirt so I look at her eyes... are there nuances here or is it just straight up any looking is bad 100% of the time. Lets assume this is a non work environment. Not a boss subordinate situation. I wouldnt view that as inappropriate under the right circumstances, but thats why im asking, im interested in other perspectives.

There's a huge difference between something catching your eye and staring at something.

I too notice women's cleavage, women notice mine. Humans are programmed to notice things that stand out. That's not leering.

Think about it this way, how long would you hold your gaze on a man's crotch if you noticed his was particularly bulging?

Also, don't assume that just because we wear tops that aren't unflattering that we want our breasts stared at. For us, they're just normal body parts, so if we wear something that makes us look nice, it might accentuate our breasts, that doesn't mean we're trying to sexually titillate men with them.

It's a common refrain from voluptuous women that it's really hard for us to dress without appearing like we're trying to be sexy.
My sister is thin and lean and I'm very curvy and we can wear the exact same outfit and be perceived very differently.

It was a huge problem for me when I worked in restaurants in heat stroke conditions with no AC. Every woman would wear tank tops, but I got criticized for dressing inappropriately in a family restaurant because I was "showing too much skin".

This is the problem with over objectifying women. Our bodies, which are just the normal skin that we live in like everyone else, get subjected to constant objectification. It's tedious and damaging.

[Tyler durden]

This is no place for nuance Tyler.  Men are bad, mkay?

I tend to vasospasm when I get an IV.  Cold sweats, tunnel vision, nausea, the whole bit.  Usually the third iv will succeed.

Usually when this happens, at least one nurse nearby will go "awwww", because it's kinda funny that a big manly man like me gets spooked at needles.  Is that sexism?  Probably.  Is it wrong?  Not entirely.  Will it change?  I'd be surprised.

I mean, the chest-looking thing I'm actually pretty good at avoiding.  So y'all can give me credit for that.

This and the comment you're replying to has to be trolling.

"In this one particular instance someone teased me for being afraid of something innocuous so I assumed they were calling me a girl and that upset me?"

Then the next point is

"I avoid most leering though, so I deserve credit for just being a decent person most of the time?"

I'm surprised that people have so much trouble listening and enacting the requests of people that have these lived experiences, but this conversation never seems to occur without these types jumping in.

Don't stare at women that haven't asked you to, how they dress is for them, or who they decide it's for. Not you.

GuitarStv, you're hearing first hand how you interact with women affects them the same way that your bullies affected you, but are not willing to "just stop staring at women's chests." May I suggest some therapy to deal with the issues you've faced while picking a different body part to speak towards? I don't know many people that actually commit to deep eye contact, most of my group tend to look at people's foreheads when speaking to them when required. Edit - this was posted before I read your last comment, those are decent options too.

No, not trolling at all. Did you see some of the responses already received?

Her choice of shirt isn’t about you, full stop. Look at people in their faces like a decent member of society.
And if your personal quirks prevent you from looking someone in the face, check out the polish on your shoes instead.

I assumed, ( you know what they say about assumptions ) that in a scenario like the one i referenced it would be viewed differently.

[MudPuppy]

@Tyler durden it’s okay to seek to learn more about things. What will you do with the responses you’ve received? How will this information affect your future behaviors?

[Metalcat]

This is no place for nuance Tyler.  Men are bad, mkay?

I tend to vasospasm when I get an IV.  Cold sweats, tunnel vision, nausea, the whole bit.  Usually the third iv will succeed.

Usually when this happens, at least one nurse nearby will go "awwww", because it's kinda funny that a big manly man like me gets spooked at needles.  Is that sexism?  Probably.  Is it wrong?  Not entirely.  Will it change?  I'd be surprised.

I mean, the chest-looking thing I'm actually pretty good at avoiding.  So y'all can give me credit for that.

Why are you being like this?

What have people like me done to you to make you so rudely dismissive of the challenges we've experienced in our lives?

I shared examples of bosses and patients openly commenting on my breasts. I've had a boss stick his hand down my shirt "as a joke", I've had colleagues insist I only have my position because I fucked my employer, I've had my success in my doctorate program threatened because I criticized the dean for overtly sexualizing a student.

I don't hate men, I don't think men are bad, if anything, I feel for men and the fact that they're socialized under extremes of toxic pressure. GuitarStv's story is a prime example of how he experienced the horrors of toxic masculinity.

I can hate, hate, hate the awful aspects of society that hurt both men and women without hating men.

You want to know what's funny? Some of us women in this thread had a pm sharing how frustrating it is that our contributions and literal expertise seem to be so readily dismissed, and the conversation quickly turned to how we have so much compassion for men and why they react the way they do.

You think we are intellectually lazy assholes sitting around shitting on men for shits and giggles, but we aren't.

You can choose to see women complaining about the toxicity that we've lived through our entire lives and relate to us because you too have been subjected to it in different ways, or you can disregard us and treat us like a bunch of whiny bitches.

Don't worry, we're used to it.

[Wrenchturner]

@Wrenchturner could you clarify what you mean? I’m reading that you believe it is unjust to be upset when someone stares at a part of your body in a way that is commonly known to be objectification and bordering on harassment because that person is male? Is objectification/harassment inextricably male an impossible for any male identified person to NOT participate in? If you meant something different, please help me understand.

I've been saying more or less the same thing all along--that evolutionary psychology exists, and it causes gendered outcomes.  Everyone knows that there are women who use their sexual prowess for power moves, but the ethics of this are only regarded in retrospect, indeed to quote Moose here:

Don't stare at women that haven't asked you to, how they dress is for them, or who they decide it's for. Not you.

This relativism doesn't work.

In my experience, women are pretty comfortable with sexual advances as long as you are sexually desireable as a male.  This will be called victim-blaming or something, and there's definitely a physical power discrepancy between men and women, but the double standard of "I'm going to wear what I like and it's everyone else's problem" is a pretty unsophisticated philosophy.

"In this one particular instance someone teased me for being afraid of something innocuous so I assumed they were calling me a girl and that upset me?"

See?  We get to judge men when they are "teased", or "afraid of something innocuous", but try to apply this to women and you will be promptly branded as sexist.

[Tyler durden]

As a not particularly outgoing person, I find find it mildly distressing to stare at people's eyes when talking to them.  My habit has always to be to stare at people's chests (men and women), something that was pointed out to me some time back and that I'm trying to correct when addressing women.

Sometimes people read into behaviour things that aren't there.

Generally I appreciate your perspective, @GuitarStv , but as someone who started receiving teasing from her classmates about her breast size at age 11 and has been leered at, talked down to, and body shamed so many times that I've lost count in the 32 years since then, I think my perspective probably carries a bit more weight here. I also strongly suspect that I'm not the only person with breasts on these forums who has a similar lived experience.

I'm not trying to say that your lived experience was wrong.  Just wanted to point out that while I do still occasionally talk to someone's chest, it's not done for sexual gratification or in any attempt to make them feel uncomfortable.

You are an adult. Stop looking at people chests when talking to them.

Thank you. I think this is why this exchange is still bugging me.

At this point, I don't care WHY a man might be staring at/talking to my chest; I only want it to stop. I've spent 30-odd years dressing very carefully and conservatively, avoiding certain athletic activities, hunching, wearing cage-like minimizer bras, etc. in the hopes of making it stop by not drawing attention to myself. I didn't wear some of the cute fashions and makeup that were popular when I was in high school because some friends' parents were already leery of having me around their kids (apparently tits = bad influence). I went through a phase a few years ago wherein I wore cuter clothing, kept my hair styled, and wore makeup. Ended up with a stalker, a former supposed friend who apparently would make gross comments about my body when I was out of earshot. Now I pretty much live in clothing that I can sleep in, cut my own hair, have thrown out my red lipsticks, and hide in my house a lot of the time. It feels safer not to make myself look good. Invisibility sounds fucking great.

I'm pretty much out of patience for excuses for why a man might talk to my chest. I'm not even sure what I'm supposed to do with that information. It doesn't change my discomfort or the unacceptability of the behavior.

@OtherJen. Decades ago I had a boss who was a former stock broker. She was one of the first female stock brokers in Manhattan, her name was Janet. By the time I met her, she was in her 50's and a SVP at our company. There was one female employee, Sue,  who was very attractive and also had large breasts. She did her best to "hide" them because we worked with mostly men brokers and investment bankers who frequently made inappropriate comments. When some of them would "talk" to Sue, they stared at her breasts. Janet, who was at most 5 feet tall, would wave her hand next to Sue's head and would say "Up here gentlemen".

I talked to Sue a couple of months ago and she says she has been doing the "Up here gentlemen" comment for years and she credits Janet with giving her the strength to respond back to inappropriate behavior.

Ironically, it was easier to get away with that back in the day when blatant sexism was more acceptable because a lot of men were less offended by having their leering called out.

Nowadays, because it's so much less acceptable, ironically men can be A LOT more hostile and defensive when called out for it because they feel their character is being attacked.

I'm actually *much* more cautious these days about directly confronting leering than I used to be. Back in the day when I would get a lot of comments about my cleavage, I could call a man, even a boss, a "perv" and he would laugh it off and say "well can you blame me?". Nowadays, I would have to be far more delicate, especially with my patients because it's actually my job to make sure they feel safe with me no matter how I feel about them.

Because yes, I've had many male patients make overt comments about my breasts.

So yes, progress is being made, but as I said before, it's often awkward and painful. I would rather a man who says something inappropriate about my body feel deeply self conscious when called out, but it sucks that I have to deal with worse consequences as a result.

Honest question here, not saying this as a defense of men's behavior. It would seem to me there are shades or nuances with the leering thing.

Say for example a women wears an extremely revealing blouse/shirt, and I get caught looking. What is that? I mean she's not wearing that shirt so I look at her eyes... are there nuances here or is it just straight up any looking is bad 100% of the time. Lets assume this is a non work environment. Not a boss subordinate situation. I wouldnt view that as inappropriate under the right circumstances, but thats why im asking, im interested in other perspectives.

There's a huge difference between something catching your eye and staring at something.

I too notice women's cleavage, women notice mine. Humans are programmed to notice things that stand out. That's not leering.

Think about it this way, how long would you hold your gaze on a man's crotch if you noticed his was particularly bulging?

Also, don't assume that just because we wear tops that aren't unflattering that we want our breasts stared at. For us, they're just normal body parts, so if we wear something that makes us look nice, it might accentuate our breasts, that doesn't mean we're trying to sexually titillate men with them.

It's a common refrain from voluptuous women that it's really hard for us to dress without appearing like we're trying to be sexy.
My sister is thin and lean and I'm very curvy and we can wear the exact same outfit and be perceived very differently.

It was a huge problem for me when I worked in restaurants in heat stroke conditions with no AC. Every woman would wear tank tops, but I got criticized for dressing inappropriately in a family restaurant because I was "showing too much skin".

This is the problem with over objectifying women. Our bodies, which are just the normal skin that we live in like everyone else, get subjected to constant objectification. It's tedious and damaging.

I think you hit the nail on the head. I see it the same way. If im engaged in a conversation with a women who has a revealing top on, I am not going to just stare at her chest. Its rude, and my wife would smack me :)

Its the catching the eye thing. As a guy, I'm gonna look, briefly, not stare.

[OtherJen]

As a not particularly outgoing person, I find find it mildly distressing to stare at people's eyes when talking to them.  My habit has always to be to stare at people's chests (men and women), something that was pointed out to me some time back and that I'm trying to correct when addressing women.

Sometimes people read into behaviour things that aren't there.

Generally I appreciate your perspective, @GuitarStv , but as someone who started receiving teasing from her classmates about her breast size at age 11 and has been leered at, talked down to, and body shamed so many times that I've lost count in the 32 years since then, I think my perspective probably carries a bit more weight here. I also strongly suspect that I'm not the only person with breasts on these forums who has a similar lived experience.

I'm not trying to say that your lived experience was wrong.  Just wanted to point out that while I do still occasionally talk to someone's chest, it's not done for sexual gratification or in any attempt to make them feel uncomfortable.

You are an adult. Stop looking at people chests when talking to them.

Thank you. I think this is why this exchange is still bugging me.

At this point, I don't care WHY a man might be staring at/talking to my chest; I only want it to stop. I've spent 30-odd years dressing very carefully and conservatively, avoiding certain athletic activities, hunching, wearing cage-like minimizer bras, etc. in the hopes of making it stop by not drawing attention to myself. I didn't wear some of the cute fashions and makeup that were popular when I was in high school because some friends' parents were already leery of having me around their kids (apparently tits = bad influence). I went through a phase a few years ago wherein I wore cuter clothing, kept my hair styled, and wore makeup. Ended up with a stalker, a former supposed friend who apparently would make gross comments about my body when I was out of earshot. Now I pretty much live in clothing that I can sleep in, cut my own hair, have thrown out my red lipsticks, and hide in my house a lot of the time. It feels safer not to make myself look good. Invisibility sounds fucking great.

I'm pretty much out of patience for excuses for why a man might talk to my chest. I'm not even sure what I'm supposed to do with that information. It doesn't change my discomfort or the unacceptability of the behavior.

@OtherJen. Decades ago I had a boss who was a former stock broker. She was one of the first female stock brokers in Manhattan, her name was Janet. By the time I met her, she was in her 50's and a SVP at our company. There was one female employee, Sue,  who was very attractive and also had large breasts. She did her best to "hide" them because we worked with mostly men brokers and investment bankers who frequently made inappropriate comments. When some of them would "talk" to Sue, they stared at her breasts. Janet, who was at most 5 feet tall, would wave her hand next to Sue's head and would say "Up here gentlemen".

I talked to Sue a couple of months ago and she says she has been doing the "Up here gentlemen" comment for years and she credits Janet with giving her the strength to respond back to inappropriate behavior.

Ironically, it was easier to get away with that back in the day when blatant sexism was more acceptable because a lot of men were less offended by having their leering called out.

Nowadays, because it's so much less acceptable, ironically men can be A LOT more hostile and defensive when called out for it because they feel their character is being attacked.

I'm actually *much* more cautious these days about directly confronting leering than I used to be. Back in the day when I would get a lot of comments about my cleavage, I could call a man, even a boss, a "perv" and he would laugh it off and say "well can you blame me?". Nowadays, I would have to be far more delicate, especially with my patients because it's actually my job to make sure they feel safe with me no matter how I feel about them.

Because yes, I've had many male patients make overt comments about my breasts.

So yes, progress is being made, but as I said before, it's often awkward and painful. I would rather a man who says something inappropriate about my body feel deeply self conscious when called out, but it sucks that I have to deal with worse consequences as a result.

Honest question here, not saying this as a defense of men's behavior. It would seem to me there are shades or nuances with the leering thing.

Say for example a women wears an extremely revealing blouse/shirt, and I get caught looking. What is that? I mean she's not wearing that shirt so I look at her eyes... are there nuances here or is it just straight up any looking is bad 100% of the time. Lets assume this is a non work environment. Not a boss subordinate situation. I wouldnt view that as inappropriate under the right circumstances, but thats why im asking, im interested in other perspectives.

There's a huge difference between something catching your eye and staring at something.

I too notice women's cleavage, women notice mine. Humans are programmed to notice things that stand out. That's not leering.

Think about it this way, how long would you hold your gaze on a man's crotch if you noticed his was particularly bulging?

Also, don't assume that just because we wear tops that aren't unflattering that we want our breasts stared at. For us, they're just normal body parts, so if we wear something that makes us look nice, it might accentuate our breasts, that doesn't mean we're trying to sexually titillate men with them.

It's a common refrain from voluptuous women that it's really hard for us to dress without appearing like we're trying to be sexy.
My sister is thin and lean and I'm very curvy and we can wear the exact same outfit and be perceived very differently.

It was a huge problem for me when I worked in restaurants in heat stroke conditions with no AC. Every woman would wear tank tops, but I got criticized for dressing inappropriately in a family restaurant because I was "showing too much skin".

This is the problem with over objectifying women. Our bodies, which are just the normal skin that we live in like everyone else, get subjected to constant objectification. It's tedious and damaging.

I think you hit the nail on the head. I see it the same way. If im engaged in a conversation with a women who has a revealing top on, I am not going to just stare at her chest. Its rude, and my wife would smack me :)

Its the catching the eye thing. As a guy, I'm gonna look, briefly, not stare.

I didn't think you were trolling, and I agree that sometimes things just catch your eye. That's human nature. I don't fault people for that. Our brains are trained to notice novelty.

[Cool Friend]

In my experience, women are pretty comfortable with sexual advances as long as you are sexually desireable as a male.

Yeah can you believe it, women sometimes enjoy attention from men they are attracted to, and don't enjoy attention from men they aren't attracted to. What a bunch of hypocrites.