What if nature gave a war and everybody came?

[big_owl]

First it was people killing gorillas because of dumb parents but now nature has fired the latest salvo by having an alligator kill a kid due to dumb parents.  Common thread seems to be dumb parents. 

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/deputies-still-searching-for-missing-2-year-old-boy-dragged-into-water-by-alligator-at-disney

But anyway, my thoughts are as follows:

1. Why on earth would you let your two year old wade out in water at night in florida in a body of water that had 'no swimming' signs posted?

2. If you're Disney, why on earth would you make an inviting beach at a body of water that you don't want people swimming in because it's home to a bunch of alligators? 

3. Queue up inevitable "we'll find the gator that did this" hunt by authorities that will employ everything short of nuclear warheads even though the kid is long dead.

4. Queue up inevitable news story comments section that pits crazy religious zealots "man should kill everything more dangerous than us because we have dominion over the earth" vs. "those dumb parents deserved it, you gotta kill a few kids to set an example sometimes".

That is all.

[ender]

His name looks like they are Americans too so they don't even have the language barrier to blame.

[Comar]

As I understand it there was a sign that said "no swimming" but no sign warning against aligators. I wouldn't call the parents "dumb". You might call it careless maybe but dumb would be ignoring signs that said "Warning aligators", but there was none of that. The boy or the parents were not ignoring any signs.

[marty998]

I find this thread a little insensitive. A family have lost their baby.

If it was night, they may not have seen the "no swimming" signs. Regardless of how stupid you think they are or they might be, I think it's poor form to pour more shit on them.

[deadlymonkey]

At first I thought that this was a troll thread but then realized maybe there is someone so insensitive that they actually believe this.

I can tell you have no kids because of what you wrote about the gorilla.  Little kids go everywhere quickly and you only need to avert you eyes for a moment to look at another kid for something to happen.  As far as has been reported, the gorilla kid parents were not doing anything wrong, just distracted for a moment by another child.  If they held the kid over the railing or something to get a better view, you would be right but that was just an unfortunate accident.  (needing to kill the gorilla is another topic)


As for the gatorattack.....the sign said No Swimming and guess what they weren't swimming.  Everywhere else in the country No swimming signs typically mean that there is no lifeguard on duty so don't swim.  They don't usually imply No swimming...because you will get eaten if your skin touches water.  They are on a body of water that Disney has made to look exactly like a tropical beach with lawnchairs, umbrellas and groomed sand, but you expect everyone to keep well back from the water?  They hold movie night there (in fact there were lots people playing in the area where this happened) and the beach is a popular spot for watching fireworks.

People that live in Florida know that all bodies of water harbor gators, but people from Nebraska probably don't.....and there is the presumption that there are no dangerous animals on Disney property ESPECIALLY when the property doesn't warn guests.  As far as killing the offending gator, it is the only way to verify which gator did it, they are not endangered and historically once predators get the taste of easy human prey they have a tendency to repeat.


Either way, the parents in both cases were NOT negligent, sometimes bad things happen and it can be devastating.

[Freedom2016]

At first I thought that this was a troll thread but then realized maybe there is someone so insensitive that they actually believe this.

I can tell you have no kids because of what you wrote about the gorilla.  Little kids go everywhere quickly and you only need to avert you eyes for a moment to look at another kid for something to happen.  As far as has been reported, the gorilla kid parents were not doing anything wrong, just distracted for a moment by another child.  If they held the kid over the railing or something to get a better view, you would be right but that was just an unfortunate accident.  (needing to kill the gorilla is another topic)


As for the gatorattack.....the sign said No Swimming and guess what they weren't swimming.  Everywhere else in the country No swimming signs typically mean that there is no lifeguard on duty so don't swim.  They don't usually imply No swimming...because you will get eaten if your skin touches water.  They are on a body of water that Disney has made to look exactly like a tropical beach with lawnchairs, umbrellas and groomed sand, but you expect everyone to keep well back from the water?  They hold movie night there (in fact there were lots people playing in the area where this happened) and the beach is a popular spot for watching fireworks.

People that live in Florida know that all bodies of water harbor gators, but people from Nebraska probably don't.....and there is the presumption that there are no dangerous animals on Disney property ESPECIALLY when the property doesn't warn guests.  As far as killing the offending gator, it is the only way to verify which gator did it, they are not endangered and historically once predators get the taste of easy human prey they have a tendency to repeat.


Either way, the parents in both cases were NOT negligent, sometimes bad things happen and it can be devastating.

I could not agree more. In fact I would argue Disney may well be negligent if they had any idea there were/could be gators in their water. Were they so concerned with maintaining the facade of being the "happiest place on earth" that they didn't want to sully that image with an actual warning to their patrons about the actual danger on/near the water?

I am from Nebraska originally, like this family, and along with the MILLIONS OF TOURISTS who visit Disney each year, have no direct, personal experience with alligators, and have no idea what their natural habitats or migratory patterns are. I would NEVER have made a connection between a "No Swimming" sign at the fantastical, utopian Disney location and "ALLIGATORS BE HERE!" I have a daughter about the same age as the boy who was taken. I cannot fathom their pain.

[Cyaphas]

Not the first time Disney is guilty of presenting nature in a non-darwinian light...

Alligator on Human attacks are really rare. I do feel that Disney should have signs up and maybe even a nice display at the entrances with an alligator and a big sign that says 'THIS IS MY SWAMP' under it. Maybe a good 12 foot statue to give people some second thoughts before they go playing next to the water line.

[big_owl]

Nah it's not a troll.  I decided I earned the right to opine on the subject since it's been on the news pretty much non-stop for the past two days and I've been forced to watch every update while trying to get my regular old news.

While I sill think the parents are dumb for letting their kid wade out into a lagoon at night in Florida, I certainly don't think they or the kid deserved it.  I also pointed out Disney's stupidity, they definintely share blame. 

That said, I don't feel I need to shed crocodile tears over the situation (pardon the pun lol).  It's not like this has any bearing on my life aside from the incessant news coverage.  The whole thing actually makes me feel some pride for America.  We still have places that are wild and crazy enough that you can be plucked to your death in an instant.  Makes everything feel a bit more adventurous out there.  How boring to live in Britain where the most dangerous animal is basically a large deer. 

[Cyaphas]

Nah it's not a troll.  I decided I earned the right to opine on the subject since it's been on the news pretty much non-stop for the past two days and I've been forced to watch every update while trying to get my regular old news.

While I sill think the parents are dumb for letting their kid wade out into a lagoon at night in Florida, I certainly don't think they or the kid deserved it.  I also pointed out Disney's stupidity, they definintely share blame. 

That said, I don't feel I need to shed crocodile tears over the situation (pardon the pun lol).  It's not like this has any bearing on my life aside from the incessant news coverage.  The whole thing actually makes me feel some pride for America.  We still have places that are wild and crazy enough that you can be plucked to your death in an instant.  Makes everything feel a bit more adventurous out there.  How boring to live in Britain where the most dangerous animal is basically a large deer.

They thought the alligators were going to keep the anacondas under control, until they started finding alligators inside the anacondas. If you're up for a good read, there's some excellent subject matter on the comeback of the real reptile badass the American Crocodile and they're reserve next to a nuclear power plant in FL.

As for alpha predators in North America, personally, the cougar (not the bar hopping kind) is what keeps me alert when I'm in the wild. People don't realize how dangerous, common and cammoflaged they are.

[human]

I honestly don't think I would have known alligators were present in that lake, it looks man made so I personally would have never suspected. Then again I just know jack shit about florida. I would have thought the no swimming was meant to keep people out so lifeguards wouldn't be needed but then all the reports say a lifeguard was nearby, watching over what I have no idea.

Unfortunately I now never to jump in a lake in florida.

[big_owl]

Nah it's not a troll.  I decided I earned the right to opine on the subject since it's been on the news pretty much non-stop for the past two days and I've been forced to watch every update while trying to get my regular old news.

While I sill think the parents are dumb for letting their kid wade out into a lagoon at night in Florida, I certainly don't think they or the kid deserved it.  I also pointed out Disney's stupidity, they definintely share blame. 

That said, I don't feel I need to shed crocodile tears over the situation (pardon the pun lol).  It's not like this has any bearing on my life aside from the incessant news coverage.  The whole thing actually makes me feel some pride for America.  We still have places that are wild and crazy enough that you can be plucked to your death in an instant.  Makes everything feel a bit more adventurous out there.  How boring to live in Britain where the most dangerous animal is basically a large deer.

They thought the alligators were going to keep the anacondas under control, until they started finding alligators inside the anacondas. If you're up for a good read, there's some excellent subject matter on the comeback of the real reptile badass the American Crocodile and they're reserve next to a nuclear power plant in FL.

As for alpha predators in North America, personally, the cougar (not the bar hopping kind) is what keeps me alert when I'm in the wild. People don't realize how dangerous, common and cammoflaged they are.

I love archosaurs, most people have no idea how evolutionarily advanced they are and what noble pedigree they have.

Speaking of top predators, somebody needs to let loose a bunch of komodo dragons somewhere in the south.  They would make things interesting. 

I'm more afraid of mountain lions and bears than I am reptiles though.  They're lots faster than I am in the areas where I frequent.  Avoiding alligators and crocodiles is pretty easy with some common sense. 

[forummm]

I've been at that lake (conference was at a hotel in the complex). They have lawn chairs there and it seems very inviting to wade into it. And I would never have thought there would be live alligators there (maybe some Disney fake ones). I am actually shocked that Disney would allow them in the complex. I know it's hard to keep nature out, but the complex is pretty well developed and manicured and has quite a lot of staff everywhere. It seems like they would know there were gators around. In fact, they killed 5 gators in that lake while trying to get the one that grabbed the kid.

I don't think it's fair to blame the parents on this one. The whole brand of Disney World is that you get to go to this magical place where everything is safe and carefree and you can do whatever you want in these meticulously created and maintained environments. I would never have imagined a gator would be in that lake.

[Cyaphas]

I've been at that lake (conference was at a hotel in the complex). They have lawn chairs there and it seems very inviting to wade into it. And I would never have thought there would be live alligators there (maybe some Disney fake ones). I am actually shocked that Disney would allow them in the complex. I know it's hard to keep nature out, but the complex is pretty well developed and manicured and has quite a lot of staff everywhere. It seems like they would know there were gators around. In fact, they killed 5 gators in that lake while trying to get the one that grabbed the kid.

I don't think it's fair to blame the parents on this one. The whole brand of Disney World is that you get to go to this magical place where everything is safe and carefree and you can do whatever you want in these meticulously created and maintained environments. I would never have imagined a gator would be in that lake.

Read up on the history of Disney world. The gators were there LONG before Disney showed up. They literally dredged the swamp and surrounding swamp to get enough land to put up structures. I imagine they have hard time keeping all of those alligators out. That and the little ones move around until they find a nice place to grow big, a place without any competition would be a good.

[forummm]

I've been at that lake (conference was at a hotel in the complex). They have lawn chairs there and it seems very inviting to wade into it. And I would never have thought there would be live alligators there (maybe some Disney fake ones). I am actually shocked that Disney would allow them in the complex. I know it's hard to keep nature out, but the complex is pretty well developed and manicured and has quite a lot of staff everywhere. It seems like they would know there were gators around. In fact, they killed 5 gators in that lake while trying to get the one that grabbed the kid.

I don't think it's fair to blame the parents on this one. The whole brand of Disney World is that you get to go to this magical place where everything is safe and carefree and you can do whatever you want in these meticulously created and maintained environments. I would never have imagined a gator would be in that lake.

Read up on the history of Disney world. The gators were there LONG before Disney showed up. They literally dredged the swamp and surrounding swamp to get enough land to put up structures. I imagine they have hard time keeping all of those alligators out. That and the little ones move around until they find a nice place to grow big, a place without any competition would be a good.

Yeah, I know it was a swamp. But they drained it 50 years ago. And have been actively remaking the land ever since. Given how much attention they put into things, I would think that gators would be on their radar. I mean they literally could have sonar or other monitoring installed to see if anything is swimming around in their lakes. They could have fencing around the complex to keep new ones out and clear out any ones that are inside the gates.

The Magic Kingdom is actually built well above ground level. They have an entire network of offices, supply rooms, computer banks running the rides, etc, and tunnels (really large hallways more like) connecting them all that is built below your feet as you walk in the park. Since the water table is close to ground level they couldn't dig down to put in this stuff. It makes more sense to have the public area on top of it anyway. They just have you go up a hill to enter the park to get up to the necessary elevation.

[golden1]

I find this thread a little insensitive. A family have lost their baby.

+1

I love how no accidents can happen anymore without the internet vigilante police weighing in 5 seconds after it happens with zero context or information.

1) Talking to several parents who frequent WDW, the beaches are combed, with seating close to the water.  The beaches look incredibly welcoming.  The signs said "No swimming" but there were no references to gators so I could see how someone not from a warm swampy area would think that wading would be safe.
2) Disney does have people responsible for dealing with gators and the wildlife.  In fact, I think they used to be more aggressive but wildlife regulations made them step back a bit.

Can we just call this one "unintended consequences", let the parents mourn, and then try to fix things and make things better without reflexively blaming people? 

[mak1277]

Nah it's not a troll.  I decided I earned the right to opine on the subject since it's been on the news pretty much non-stop for the past two days and I've been forced to watch every update while trying to get my regular old news.

While I sill think the parents are dumb for letting their kid wade out into a lagoon at night in Florida, I certainly don't think they or the kid deserved it.  I also pointed out Disney's stupidity, they definintely share blame. 

That said, I don't feel I need to shed crocodile tears over the situation (pardon the pun lol).  It's not like this has any bearing on my life aside from the incessant news coverage.  The whole thing actually makes me feel some pride for America.  We still have places that are wild and crazy enough that you can be plucked to your death in an instant.  Makes everything feel a bit more adventurous out there.  How boring to live in Britain where the most dangerous animal is basically a large deer.

They thought the alligators were going to keep the anacondas under control, until they started finding alligators inside the anacondas. If you're up for a good read, there's some excellent subject matter on the comeback of the real reptile badass the American Crocodile and they're reserve next to a nuclear power plant in FL.

As for alpha predators in North America, personally, the cougar (not the bar hopping kind) is what keeps me alert when I'm in the wild. People don't realize how dangerous, common and cammoflaged they are.

There have only been three fatal cougar attacks in the US in the last 20 years.  I don't think that's much risk to worry about. 

[Yaeger]

Nature's been giving us a war since we first banged two rocks together. Look who's winning. F-you nature.

[big_owl]

Can we just call this one "unintended consequences", let the parents mourn, and then try to fix things and make things better without reflexively blaming people?

Where's the fun in that?  I'm pretty sure the parents will mourn just fine regardless of whether or not this particular thread exists.  The Orlando thread is already up to 9 pages afterall...

[nobodyspecial]

As I understand it there was a sign that said "no swimming" but no sign warning against aligators. I wouldn't call the parents "dumb". You might call it careless maybe but dumb would be ignoring signs that said "Warning aligators", but there was none of that. The boy or the parents were not ignoring any signs.

Indeed, we have signs which clearly say "keep of the grass" that should be sufficient warnings about the anti-personnel mines.

[Cyaphas]

There have only been three fatal cougar attacks in the US in the last 20 years.  I don't think that's much risk to worry about.

I imagine there are a few fatal cougar attacks that merely go on the missing persons list.

[big_owl]

Looks like humans have taken round 3 and 4 in this battle.  Mom battles off cougar, and today word from the battlefield is that they killed the Rio Olympic mascot.  Eh, they probably shoulda made the Olympic mascot a zika-infested mosquito anyway.  Brazil for the win.

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/amazon-jaguar-shot-dead-olympic-torch-ceremony-192428528--oly.html

[Curbside Prophet]

Nah it's not a troll.  I decided I earned the right to opine on the subject since it's been on the news pretty much non-stop for the past two days and I've been forced to watch every update while trying to get my regular old news.

While I sill think the parents are dumb for letting their kid wade out into a lagoon at night in Florida, I certainly don't think they or the kid deserved it.  I also pointed out Disney's stupidity, they definintely share blame. 

That said, I don't feel I need to shed crocodile tears over the situation (pardon the pun lol).  It's not like this has any bearing on my life aside from the incessant news coverage.  The whole thing actually makes me feel some pride for America.  We still have places that are wild and crazy enough that you can be plucked to your death in an instant.  Makes everything feel a bit more adventurous out there.  How boring to live in Britain where the most dangerous animal is basically a large deer.

They thought the alligators were going to keep the anacondas under control, until they started finding alligators inside the anacondas. If you're up for a good read, there's some excellent subject matter on the comeback of the real reptile badass the American Crocodile and they're reserve next to a nuclear power plant in FL.

As for alpha predators in North America, personally, the cougar (not the bar hopping kind) is what keeps me alert when I'm in the wild. People don't realize how dangerous, common and cammoflaged they are.

There have only been three fatal cougar attacks in the US in the last 20 years.  I don't think that's much risk to worry about.

This was the first incident in this particular lake in 45 years.  I believe the last attack by a gator was something like 30 years ago at Disney (and I do not believe it was fatal).  So the same logic applies.

While tragic, this was literally a one in a million chance of occurrence given the amount of visitors to Disney each year.  Actually it was probably closer to PowerBall lottery odds of happening.   

[Silverado]

I find this thread a little insensitive. A family have lost their baby.

If it was night, they may not have seen the "no swimming" signs. Regardless of how stupid you think they are or they might be, I think it's poor form to pour more shit on them.

So what? Don't read it. Plenty of other threads out there.

[Cassie]

I think it is a shame that Disney built a lake and beach knowing there are alligators it will attract.  People in Florida sometimes find them in their backyard swimming pool. I feel really sorry for the parents. Nothing is worse then losing a child. Unless you are familiar with Florida you would never think it possible for a gater to be in there.

[Mac_MacGyver]

It is somewhat of a different relationship with gators in Florida. Know they are around, just watch out for them. If you are ever in the Florida panhandle, check out Wakulla Springs. One side of the springs is gators, 150 yards away are the swimmers. Every morning the gators are shooed off the docks and out of the swimming areas. All that separates the swimmers from the gators is a short distance and those pool ropes with the floats that separate the shallow end from the deep end. The other thing is dont go swimming at night, same applies to the ocean, water predators seem to be a fan of the dark.

[Cassie]

I totally agree it is Disney's fault.  Maybe if the parents sue the lake will be gone. Many people from other countries can't even read English.

[Lulee]

I am dumbfounded by how many people have said after this horror that they were unaware how many gators infest Floridian waters.  I’m from freaking New Hampshire and have never visited a southern state and even I know not to assume any body of water is free of gators unless you can see in looking at the entirety of the body that it has none, INCLUDING swimming pools! 

That said, the parents are being punished for their presumptions/lack of knowledge and will be for the rest of their lives.  Having watched my Dad suffer losing my brother (he and his roommate goofed around with a gun they thought wasn’t workable or loaded when it was both) and seeing that pain eat at him for decades before he too passed, I doubt few here who haven't experienced such a foolish and needless loss of a child can really comprehend these parents’ pain.

I cheer on Nature whenever there’s a news report of an idiotic adult getting their comeuppance and hope they haven’t bred more idiots yet to replace them.  But never when kids were involved.

I wish I could find the article that described Disney’s yearly gator removal rate and other details about their work to minimize the gators numbers in the resort.  But I find it beyond reprehensible that they didn’t post all the waterways to warn/remind of the gators existence.  Everyone from the board members down to the person in charge of deciding safety signage should be hit with jail time for failure to do the common sense thing here.

[Cassie]

A good friend of mine lost her daughter 4 years ago and the pain is indescribable. It was an illness so no one's fault.